1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. This is part two of Cute Week. Okay, yes, 4 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never told You. In part one we talked 5 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: about b d S M or bondage, disciplined dominant submissions, 6 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: stato masochism, and today we're going to focus in on 7 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:37,919 Speaker 1: the dominatrix. Yeah, fascinating character. If you're just looking at 8 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: it as a trope, it's it's a fascinating character on 9 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: its own. I mean, this is a character who has 10 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: been part of our pop culture and popular imagination for 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: a really long time. But when we delve a little 12 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: bit further and look at the men and women, typically women, 13 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: who are actually filling these roles out in the real world, 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: the character becomes even more fascinating. So why don't we 15 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: talk pop culturally at first? Because even though the work 16 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: of professional dominatrix is dominatrix ses or prodoms is considered 17 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: taboo for a lot of people, dominatrix fashion is all 18 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: around us, especially if you open up editions of Vogue 19 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: or other kinds of high fashion mags. Yeah. Reading for 20 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: this episode it struck me that it seems that the 21 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: more high fashion a magazine or whatever is, the more 22 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: likely they are to feature sort of almost bordering on 23 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: really graphic b D s M and dominatrix imagery. It 24 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: seems to be really ingrained in high fashion culture. Yeah, 25 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: Vogue Paris went through really a B D s M 26 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: heavy phase where there are lots of ball gags in 27 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: high fashion spread, so it's interesting to see how that happens. 28 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: But as we learned in a post over at Fashionista, 29 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: this has been a consistent theme of photographers, really, starting 30 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: with Man Ray, who we talked about for a while 31 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: actually in our B D s M episode, because this 32 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: surrealist artists and photographer had a penchant for photos of 33 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: women in bondage gear and different kinds of bound poses. 34 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: And then there are other photographers like Guy Bordan, Helmett Newton, 35 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: and David LaChapelle who also have tended to have a 36 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: heavy focus on the B D s M get ups. 37 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: And not surprisingly, since we see these kinds of themes 38 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: and depictions so often in high fashion editorials, we also 39 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: see it on the catwalk, especially in the eighties and 40 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: more than nineties with Terry muggler, which I should say 41 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 1: in a vancy of France talks. And like Telly Mogli 42 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: who was known for a lot of dominatrix styles in 43 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,399 Speaker 1: his in his label and his runway shows and off 44 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: the runway and out of just fashion photography, we do 45 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: see a lot of b ds and themes start to 46 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: become common in high fashion editorials and magazines. So not 47 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: it's not just recently, but it's it's been sort of 48 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 1: a common thing for a while now. Yeah, and it's 49 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: really become a go to aesthetic for female pop stars. 50 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: This is once you start looking for different examples and 51 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: see just how many there are. It's really interesting that, 52 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: of course, starting with Madonna kind of all the time, 53 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: but especially with her album Erotica, in which she adopts 54 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: the persona of Mistress Dieta. She you know, you first 55 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: started to see these dominatrix kinds of fashions, these b 56 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: D s M kinds of themes. This is echoed later 57 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: in her Confessions tour in the mid two thousands. This 58 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: is also echoed in in outfits that she's worn for 59 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: red carpet events in recent times as well. So she 60 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: has has been a main pop star to do that, 61 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: and so of course there's the Madonna ripple effect. Yeah, 62 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: with Britney Spears and her work Bitch video, Rihanna's s 63 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: and m song and video, and of course multiple Lady 64 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: Gaga looks. It was even h It even cropped up 65 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: in Zoo Lander with Mila Jevivici's character and in an 66 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: episode of Frasier where Roz dresses like a dominatrix to 67 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: go to a Halloween party. And it's the same episode 68 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: where she finds out she's pregnant, uh, and she worries 69 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: about being a good mother because here she is going 70 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: to a party dressed as a as a prodom um, 71 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: and Fraser says, well, I don't think your kid's gonna 72 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: have to worry about discipline, And I like that you 73 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: just use the term cropped up dominatres. E's but I'm 74 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: accidental puns um. So But speaking of Frasier though, Okay, 75 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: so this is also become a commonly stereotyped TV on 76 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: character and film, not just when Roz dresses up on Frasier. 77 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: And Catherine scott Over at Bitch Magazine wrote about this 78 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: and how a lot of times, a lot of the 79 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: depictions that we will see in culture are play on 80 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: a lot of stereotypes that don't take a favorable view 81 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,679 Speaker 1: of the dominatrix. Yeah. She points out that on TV 82 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: and in movies, these dominatrix characters are usually white, very unfeminine, 83 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: with severe personalities, and it helps you know if they 84 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: have a Russian or German accent to boot and domination 85 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: isn't just their sexual persona, it's really their overall defining trait. Yeah. 86 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: So you have comedic examples like you just mentioned Caroline 87 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: Mila Jebovic as Katinka and Zoo Lander. There's Frau a 88 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: far Busna in Austin Powers, and then for not so 89 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: much of comedic take, there's Lucy lew and Charlie's Angels, 90 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: who does a dominatrix as part of her spy work. 91 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: And same thing too when Angelina Jolie poses as a 92 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: dominatrix at one point in Mr. And Mrs Smith. So 93 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: it also seems like we are fine with sexy ladies 94 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: spies dressing up in in this kind of here, which 95 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: might be why in Rica Schubert's book Super Bitches and 96 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: Action Babes, the female hero in popular cinema nine thousand six, 97 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: Rica writes, quote, fundamental to the construction of the female 98 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: hero in modern popular cinema is the archetype of the dominatrix. 99 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: So basically, dominatrix looks are are almost like a signal 100 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: to the audience that this woman is outside the norm, 101 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: that she's either way stronger than the average woman or 102 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: super unfeminine, something along those lines. It seems that way. 103 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you do have earth A Kit as Catwoman 104 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: in the old Batman series, and let's not forget Michelle 105 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: Peffer as Catwoman too. Yeah, I mean, those kinds of 106 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: leather latex jumpsuits are still rather dominatrix and they're pretty sexy. 107 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: But of course these two characters are are not necessarily 108 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: lauded for their for the gentle femininity, right exactly, And 109 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: a lot of people would say that that's what's so 110 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: attractive about them. Um. There's also characters like Jennifer Tilly 111 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: and Bride of Chucky, which is hilarious to bring up 112 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: because how often do you get to talk about Bride 113 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: of Checky. Really not enough? Really not a us. We 114 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: should we should do a side podcast just focused on 115 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: the Chucky franchise. UM and then there's the character of 116 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: Irene Adler and the Sherlock episode the Iceman, the Virgin 117 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: and the Dominatrix. But her nudity in her scenes with 118 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: Sherlock isn't what a real pro dom would do. Yeah, 119 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about that a little later in the podcast. 120 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: But Katherine Scott over a Bitch does praise a couple 121 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: of examples of sort of normalizing dominatricy. Is not as 122 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: these either punchlines for the how like masculine these women are, 123 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: or just needing to have some kind of outward costume 124 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: symbol of their physical strength or mental dominance. She highlights 125 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: Mimi Wu in the book, the Girl who Played with Fire, 126 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: who is in a stereotype depiction, and then also Lady Heather, 127 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: who is a recurring dominatrix character on c S I, 128 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: who also becomes at one point of possible love interests. 129 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: So it's sort of normalizing her in a way, but 130 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: moving out of pop culture and away from film and television, 131 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: who our dominatric is really? Who are prodoms? Caroline Well? 132 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: This definition is coming courtesy of Danielle Lindemann, who wrote Dominatrix, 133 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: gender Eroticism, and control in the dungeon, and she defines 134 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: prodoms as women who receive money to physically and verbally 135 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: dominate male clients who are submissive, subs or slaves through spanking, flogging, 136 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: verbal humiliation, bondage, cross dressing, and other tactics. So let's 137 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: look at where with the dominatrix and the prodom came from. Yeah, 138 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: and some of this brief cultural history we're going to 139 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: trot through will be familiar to those of you who 140 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: listen to our previous episode on b D s M. 141 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: But for this we're going to focus in not just 142 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: on the overall history of b D s M culture, 143 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: but really where this usually female figure first arises. And 144 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,199 Speaker 1: and o'numus, who wrote the History and Arts of the Dominatrix, 145 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: found the first mentions of secular dominatrices in books from 146 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: the seventeenth through the nineteenth century, because before that there 147 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: are more pagan and sort of semi religious dominatrix figures. Um, 148 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: But we're looking more at just the secular Yeah, and 149 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: the history starts basically where our b D s M 150 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: history started, which is with flagellation. Let's let's all get 151 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: on the flage train. So we get the first mention 152 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: of erotic flagellation in fifteen ninety and women who perform 153 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: these activities are known as whipstresses, school mistresses, or governesses, 154 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: which I think is tell yeah and numas also hights, 155 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: and this was highlighted in a couple of other sources 156 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: as well. How there is this legend though that pre 157 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: dates the whipstress is involving Aristotle and I believe a 158 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: lover of Alexander the Great named Phyllis, who, as legend goes, 159 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: Aristotle had set his romantic sites on, but eventually Phyllis 160 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: ends up dominating Aristotle. And there are these depictions artistic 161 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: depictions of Phyllis restraining Aristotle and essentially kind of riding 162 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: him like a horse for yeah, for lack of a 163 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: better descriptor, And it stretches back to the Middle Ages, 164 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: and there are artistic depictions of this that also appear 165 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: in Renaissance arts. So we do have Phyllis and early 166 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: possible legendary dominatrix or whip stress. I mean that just honestly, 167 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to honest people, and this is gonna say 168 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: way more honest. It's gonna say way more about me 169 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: than it's gonna say about anybody else Christian, and that 170 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: is that whip stress just makes me think of whipped cream. 171 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: That makes sense. They both contained the word whip they do, 172 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: and I just like whipped cream. Annie who Moving out 173 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: of art and into the written word. In seventeen eighteen 174 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: we get the publication in England of the Treatise on 175 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: the Use of Flogging. So it's good we're setting ground 176 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: rolls down in writing. And then in seventeen one we 177 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: get who is perhaps history's first dominatrix in literature, juliet 178 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: in the Marquis Assad's Justine and later in the Story 179 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: of Juliette. And then in the early nineteenth century, moving 180 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: out of literature and into real world events, there is 181 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: a London based dominatrix named Teresa Berkeley who operated an 182 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: early nineteenth century equivalent of what would be called a B. D. S. M. 183 00:11:54,920 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: Dungeon today, and men would frequent birth Berkeley's establishment to 184 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: do what men frequent dominatrix houses to do today as well. 185 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: They would get chained up, whipped, birched and cained, and 186 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: she apparently was became known for her eponymous Berkeley whipping horse, 187 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: which is now property of the Royal Society of the Arts, 188 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: and no one's entirely sure how the whipping horse was used. Um, 189 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: but hey, Theresa Berkeley, an inventor, an early dominatrix, an entrepreneur. 190 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: This woman was a real, real gill of all trades. 191 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: And then in eighteen seventy we get another groundbreaking book. 192 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: It's the publication of Venus in Furs by Austrian writer 193 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: and journalist Leopold von Sacher Massock. And so there you have, 194 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: as we talked about in our first episode, the namesake 195 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: for masochism and earlier with Marquis assad Sadism. Now this 196 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: is interesting. In eighteen seventy seven, this guy named Henry Ashby, 197 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: who is sort of an amateur pornographer and also uh 198 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: sort of a amateur historian of erotica and pornography at 199 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: the time, writes this bibliography of forbidden books, and in 200 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: volume one, Ashby points out quote it is a well 201 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: known fact that women are and always have been, even 202 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: more fond of wielding the rod than men, and this 203 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: passion pervades the higher rather than the lower classes. And 204 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: consider that this as being written to in the nineteenth century, when, 205 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: as we talked about in our last episode there was 206 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: so much flagporn being made and enjoyed in the Victorian 207 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: era England. Yeah, and much like in our first episode 208 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: when we jumped very far forward from the Victorian era 209 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: and their flageporn and their fascination with spanking and being 210 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: repressed and all that stuff, and we jumped way forward 211 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 1: to about the nineteen thirties through the nineteen sixties, And 212 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: it's much the same with the history of dominatrices. We 213 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: jumped forward to nineteen fifty one when Cathy and Rob 214 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: grill A, who would become France's most famous dominatrix, becomes 215 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: the mistress to writer and future husband Elaine Rob grill A. 216 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: And there's this fascinating Vanity Fair article about her that 217 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: Kristen sent me, and it sort of, I mean, it 218 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: delves into the lifestyle in a way that none of 219 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: the other articles I read did. I mean, it's a 220 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: fascinating look into the life of someone who has completely 221 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: dedicated her entire existence to living this way. And she's 222 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: in her eighties now, yeah, and she still has I mean, 223 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: she's still a practicing dominatrix. And hers takes on more 224 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: religious overtones as well, they're almost kind of sacraments that 225 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: take place when she is performing her dominatrix arts. For 226 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: lack of a more refined term um, So if you 227 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: head over to stuff I'm Never Told You dot Com 228 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: and look at this podcast post, will have a link 229 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: to that Vanity Fair piece that we do recommend you read. 230 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: So this is happening though in the nineteen fifties. And 231 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: what's not covered though in that Vanity Fair piece is 232 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: what kind of cultural immediate cultural impact she had. And 233 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: that's what I'm curious about because she's known now as 234 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: France's most famous dominatrix, but I wonder how long it 235 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: took for her to become known outside of her and 236 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: her then husband's circles. But I mean at the same time, though, 237 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: I mean, she was obviously part of some sort of upswell, 238 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: some upsurge in this happening because in the nineteen sixties 239 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: that's when the commercial dominatrix arrives on the social landscape. Yeah, 240 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: and a lot of main SMR and Upstate New York 241 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: is supposedly the oldest B D s M training chateau, 242 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: which I think is probably started in maybe like the 243 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: late sixties or seventies because it's only you know, twenty 244 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: or thirty years old at this point, which means, actually, 245 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: my math is way off. Let's put it more in 246 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: the eighties. Yeah, um. And speaking of the eighties, there 247 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: was an early nineteen eighties study that found there were 248 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: hundred prodoms in the US visited by approximately one hundred 249 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: and fifty thousand men. But that's before, that's before it 250 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: really went mainstream, and we saw it go super mainstream 251 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: in the nineties with people like Madonna, Nine Inch Nails 252 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: and Jon Jet all incorporating the look of dominatrices and 253 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: B D s M into their videos. So now we 254 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: want to know what is it like for a working 255 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: dominatrix today? How literally how does this work? And we're 256 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: going to talk about that when we come right back 257 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: from a quick break. Where So, one thing I noticed 258 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: in researching for this episode is just how seriously and 259 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: not that they shouldn't obviously, but just how seriously people 260 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: take this line of work, of being a prodom, of 261 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: working in a dungeon, of filling this need that they 262 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: perceived to exist in society. It's it's interesting to go 263 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: through not only read the articles about this lifestyle, this 264 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: culture and this profession, but also to read the comments 265 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: under the articles, because inevitably, and I hope we do 266 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: receive feedback too. I'd love to hear from people who 267 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: are participating in this, but inevitably, the people commenting on 268 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: the articles will have a lot of strong opinions about 269 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 1: the articles themselves because they're living this every day and 270 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: they are making a living off of it. Yeah, and 271 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: and to that point, speaking to alternate, Susan Wright, who's 272 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: the president and founder of the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom, 273 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: which is a b D S M rights organization, said, quote, 274 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: it's more a mixture of performance art and sexual stimulation, 275 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: and a prodom is in a position of power, which 276 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: is very different from being a stripper or an escort. 277 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: That puts being a prodom in a very different category 278 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: of sex work. And in the studies that we read, 279 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: because yes, there are academic studies that exist all about 280 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: dominatrix work. Interviews with prodoms and particularly prodoms who come 281 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: to the profession through the lifestyle rather than thinking, Hmmm, 282 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: how can I make some extra money being a dominatrix done, 283 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: a lot of them are really adamant about differentiating what 284 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: they do from prostitution, which is really interesting. You can 285 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: you can categorize it as erotical labor, absolutely, but some 286 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: would say, don't call it sex work. Yeah. Danielle Lindeman, 287 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 1: who we sited earlier, who's done a lot of research 288 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: into this for a book and papers on the topic, 289 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: did delve into this issue of money versus authenticity and 290 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: who who is more authentic the person who does it 291 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: because she wants to earn money or the person who 292 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: does it because she considers it and art. And so 293 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: there's this issue of money among doms who consider themselves 294 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,239 Speaker 1: real versus the phony commercial doms who aren't doing it 295 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: for the so called art but and she calls this 296 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,479 Speaker 1: the non economy economy and that the artists quote unquote 297 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: are the ones who actually charge more for the services 298 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: they're providing. Well, and it's also not just a concern 299 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: over money, like being in it just for the money, 300 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: but as a lot of the more lifestyle oriented prodoms 301 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: um are are concerned about the people who might jump 302 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: in it for the money, literally do that they jump 303 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: in without any prior training, which, as we went over 304 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: a lot in the prior episode on B D s M, 305 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: training and understanding how things work and how to inflict 306 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: pain without actually damaging the body. Things like that are 307 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: really important for doing this kind of work safely. Right. Yeah. 308 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: One woman that Lindeman talked to said she is really 309 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: put off by one dungeon where she worked because they 310 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: were just trying to turn a quick book and the 311 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: subs that we're coming in, we're making all of these 312 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: demands and we're basically being uh, we're topping from the bottom, 313 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: so to speak. And she was saying that these people 314 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: don't know how it works. They expect me to, you know, 315 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 1: do things like hand jobs or their sexual activities while 316 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: I'm being the prodom that I am, and this is 317 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,360 Speaker 1: not how it works. This is not just to turn 318 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: a quick book and perform some sex X. And speaking 319 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: of training, it can range from a formal, intensive apprenticeship 320 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: to just jumping in. Usually it's scene parties or in 321 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: less structured houses like that. So for instance, Anonumous, who 322 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: he started as the author of the History and Arts 323 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: of the Dominatrix, underwent an eighteen hour per week dungeon apprenticeship. 324 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: And those kinds of prodoms take that level of training 325 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: very seriously. They're the ones who will go to some 326 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: place like lot Domain SMR in Absolute New York to 327 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 1: the chateau to train there from other prodoms who have 328 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: been doing it for a while, and they kind of 329 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 1: work their way up through a system. Yeah what, I 330 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: wish I could remember what this is from. But there 331 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: was some quote in one of the sources that will 332 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: be on stuff Mom Never told You dot com after 333 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,719 Speaker 1: this episode um talking about how they were looking into 334 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: emergency room visits and the reason for emergency room visits 335 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: and on a Sunday morning, the most common reason for 336 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 1: people to be in an emergency room in New York 337 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: is a bagel slicing accident, like cutting yourself while making 338 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: breakfast essentially. And they were like, and I did not 339 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: find a single instance of a b D, s M 340 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: or dominatrix related injury Sunday morning, So tell me what 341 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: is more dangerous eating breakfast or going to a dominatrix 342 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: watch off that. Yeah, but I mean, but that's I mean, 343 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: that's it's like a funny aside or whatever. But I mean, 344 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: I think that does point out the importance of safety 345 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: to a lot of people in the community, that that 346 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: it's not a joke, that this is thing that you 347 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: have to be trained for. You can't, like you said, 348 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,959 Speaker 1: just jump into because people could get really hurt, especially 349 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: when you're doing bondage stuff. I mean, you could tear ligaments, 350 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: you could end up accidentally choking someone. So it's it's 351 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: sort of a it's an art, but it's a serious art. Yeah, 352 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: And and so for that reason, most prodoms will start 353 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: out at larger dungeons and then work their way toward 354 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: being independent. And the advantage of being part of a 355 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: larger dungeon is the same way. It's like with any 356 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: line of work. It's the same way that being with, 357 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: say a larger corporation offers its perks. So an established 358 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: dungeon will provide advertising, a client base, tools of the trade, 359 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: and training, again just like any kind of job with 360 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: a larger employer probably will. But how doses often have 361 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: high turnovers from dominatricies having to give them a cut 362 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: of their session fees, just kind of getting disenchanted with 363 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: the work. And also dungeon hopping which happens, which again 364 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: this sounds a lot like especially millennial work patterns, just 365 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: hopping from job to job, from job to job, dungeon 366 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: to dungeon, and you know. I mean obviously not to 367 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: sound like an old lady, but the Internet has really 368 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: made things easier not only to form that community like 369 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: we talked about in our first episode, but also to 370 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: market yourself to provide free advertising. And as one of 371 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: the sources we looked at said, um, a lot of 372 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 1: these independent prodoms will say, you know mistress so and 373 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: so formerly of the such and such dungeon, and so 374 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: there's still sort of playing off the popularity or the 375 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: cachet that that name has. Yeah, and the Internet probably 376 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: allows you to become independent faster. You can do your 377 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: own branding, you can you can interface with clientele as 378 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: much as you want or don't, as much as your 379 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: bandwidth allows. You really need to go deep and break 380 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: out of your silo, Kristen, It's true, leverage your asset, 381 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: get out of that sex silo. So what exactly though, 382 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: do dominatrices do. It depends on the sub A lot 383 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: of times it depends on the client and also what 384 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: dominatricys beforehand are willing and not willing to do. Yeah, 385 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: and so Lindeman identified three main categories of services, which 386 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 1: are pain producing dominant, non pain producing dominant, and fetishistic, 387 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: and there's also full service, which is you know, a 388 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: k A. Sex, but that's typically in most cases off 389 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: the table. Yeah, that's the thing. That's why we mentioned 390 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: the character in that episode of Sherlock. Isn't such a 391 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,959 Speaker 1: real world depiction of a dominatrix because nudity rarely gonna happen, 392 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: sex rarely gonna happen. Well, the doms nudity, Yeah, exactly, yes, yes, 393 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: thank you for clarifying that. Well, so, you know, we 394 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: we've touched on the issue of money, but how much 395 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: can you realistically make in this line of work. This 396 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: is coming from a New York meg article in they 397 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: found that independent doms can make about a thousand dollars 398 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: per week, and the rare dom will pull in upwards 399 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 1: of a hundred thousand dollars per year. But this is 400 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: not exactly like a get rich scheme. Yeah, I mean 401 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: keep in mind that that's gross thousand dollars per week. Um. Oh. 402 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: And we should also mention too that clients do not 403 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: pay a fee to the dominatrix. They pay a tribute 404 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: from the get go. Even when a client is say, 405 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: first calling up to request an appointment or emailing or whatever. 406 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: I am in snapchatting. I don't know how they get 407 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: in touch these days kids these days with their snapchat pigeons, 408 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: when they spend their pigeon messages, there is immediately the 409 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: language of of DS. Of a DS relationship, the dominatrix 410 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: is addressed as mistress or even goddess. And it's not money. 411 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: It's a tribute because you are coming to this mistress 412 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: to do something for you. You are you are lower 413 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: than she or he, but usually she. Yeah. And there's 414 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: the thing about hourly pay, which sounds amazing but isn't 415 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: necessarily so great because houses charge on average a hundred 416 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: eighty dollars per hour, and doms take home around half 417 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: of that plus tips, and independence can charge two pur 418 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: But you've also got to keep in mind that just 419 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 1: because so if you're working for a house, for a dungeon, 420 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: just because you're there for eight or ten hours doesn't 421 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: mean you're working eight or ten hours. You're typically literally 422 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: only getting paid for the hours that you are working. Yeah, 423 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: so your traffic flow is obviously going to make a 424 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: big difference. And then, especially if you're independent, your overhead 425 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: can cut into your profits as well, because it's not 426 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: cheap rental costs for your dungeon space and your wardrobe, 427 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: and also tools can cost thousands. Fetishes don't come cheap. 428 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: That's why they're this term pervertibles, which is household items 429 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: that can be converted into fetish tools. It's really common. 430 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: Provertibles are really common because they help keep costs low 431 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: because leather ain't cheap, y'all. It is not. And the 432 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: word pervertible just makes me makes me think of lunchables 433 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: for some reason. I don't know. This is like back 434 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: with the whip cream. I'm I'm hungry lunchtime. It is 435 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: uch time when we're recording this, UM. But I mean, no, 436 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: those items aren't cheap, but you can write them off 437 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: on your taxes. Things like dildos and nipple clamps. They're 438 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 1: not free, but they're in your line of work, so 439 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 1: you can write them off and just be prepared to 440 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: perhaps get audited. So keep those receipts, Ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, 441 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: prodoms will ride off their whips and handcuffs, It's true, UM, 442 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: and they do, especially if they're independent or freelance. As 443 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: it as it goes in the freelancer economy, you are 444 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: likelier to get audited um. But when it comes to 445 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: making more money, if you want to make extra cash, 446 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: there are certain services like nudity that will typically cost more. 447 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: And in addition to just basic basic dominatrix services, which 448 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: is a real understatement, additional cash is often made through 449 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: related avenues like fetish modeling or hosting scene parties, teaching workshops, 450 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: writing books, maybe even getting into creating lines of your 451 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: own sex toys or fetish products. Well, Christen, there is 452 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: one financial issue that we haven't touched on yet, which 453 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: is the financial dom who's far less common. But this 454 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: is a woman who essentially takes over control to to 455 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: varying extents per client requests. Yes, yes, of a subs 456 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: finances and this can involve anything from just like taking 457 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: money to go buy food or having their rent covered, 458 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: to spending and earning thousands upon the thousands of dollars 459 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: per year. But just as your average again understatement, your 460 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: average prodom has rules to protect herself and the sub 461 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: and they're definitely guidelines to follow. Your your average financial 462 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,719 Speaker 1: dum will also have rules in place so as not 463 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: to bankrupt the sub or to completely damage his or 464 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: her family life. But you know, as with anything there 465 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: are bad apples in the bunch. Well, in speaking of 466 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: bad apples in the bunch, prodoms often have to do 467 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: extra work as well to keep their identities under wraps, 468 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: to keep their location secret, they'll usually rent out a 469 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: separate dungeon space or um sort of do a shared 470 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,959 Speaker 1: workspace with other dominatric e s or um erotic laborers 471 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,719 Speaker 1: of different types to help split costs because usually they 472 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: don't want to do it in their own apartment because 473 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: of unpleasant things like stalking, black male and assault that 474 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: unfortunately can sometimes come with the work. Yeah. Well, so, 475 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of those potentially negative dynamics that come 476 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: along with it, let's look at gender and sexuality dynamics 477 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: of this line of work, because there's a lot of 478 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: discussion around our dominatrices subverting the gender script. Are they 479 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: becoming the masculine one, are they a different type of feminine? 480 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: What's going on with that? Well, it's interesting because yeah, 481 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: to a degree of course, theyur flipping the script by 482 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: being so overtly dominant, especially because and this is from 483 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: the majority of dominatrices that Danielle Lindemann talked to in 484 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: her research, It is a very um male female dynamic 485 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: with the female dominatrix and male sub and so usually yeah, 486 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: the dominatrix swipping the script. But but, but importantly, clients 487 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,479 Speaker 1: can always use the safe word. They're the ones who 488 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: can press the stop button, so to speak, if they're 489 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with things. And there are still some negotiated gendered 490 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: scripts going on. Even Wednesday flogging is involved. There are 491 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: still gender dynamics that are happening. It's not all out 492 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: the window, right, Yeah, And and we did in preparing 493 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: for these two episodes, read a lot about how this 494 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: just because a person is a sub or submissive or 495 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: a slave doesn't mean they're completely powerless. That often they do. 496 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: They are the one holding the power to stop things. 497 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: But in terms of those gender roles and dynamics, are 498 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: their male prodoms out there, Yes, but as Lindeman rights, 499 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: they're much less socially visible and less prevalent in the 500 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: industry of professional dominance than females who do sessions with 501 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: male clients. Yeah, so it seems to be a highly 502 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: female to male exchange. Interestingly, though, when it comes to sexuality, 503 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: we didn't find any real formal studies on sexual orientations 504 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: of prodoms. However, this was mentioned in Lindemann's book and 505 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: a majority of the women she talked to identified as bisexual. Similarly, 506 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: Catherine robe Grill, the famous French dominatrix, also identifies as bisexual. 507 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: She was married to a man at one point and 508 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: now lives with a woman for instance, and speaking to 509 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: Vice La Dominatrix, Lady Leela Stern said, quote, most of 510 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: the doms I know or lesbians or at least have 511 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: a strong preference for women. So this also resonates with 512 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: what we talked about in terms of how there's a 513 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: lot more fluidity within the b D s M community 514 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: in general. So this makes sense. Yeah, and it also 515 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: gives more of a reason for people to say that 516 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: dominatrices are existing and working outside of the bounds of 517 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: normal momnentity. Yeah. And uh. Some will also to differentiate 518 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: between play sexuality and their sex sexuality, which is I 519 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: think important to keep in mind as well. I mean, again, 520 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: this all relates back to our questions and sometimes qualms 521 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: over sexual fantasy and acting those out and playing around 522 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: with taboo versus the day to day lives that we 523 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: might live with our clothes on. Usually, although clothes are 524 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: often on in these kinds of scenarios too, I realized. 525 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: But out in the day to day world, in our 526 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: offices outside the dungeon, I should say, yeah, exactly. And 527 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: so we haven't talked though about why people visit prodoms, 528 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: and they're all sorts of reasons that really aren't necessarily 529 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: correlated to someone's real world outside the dungeon. Powder because 530 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: you know, there's all of these theories that, um, a 531 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: man is just tired of being in control and so 532 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: he wants to have his control stripped away by a woman. 533 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: And you know, we touched a little bit on that 534 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,479 Speaker 1: psychology in our first episode. Yeah, And I think it's 535 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,280 Speaker 1: it's notable too that there's so much focus on gender 536 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: of like, oh, are they finally subverting this gender role. 537 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: It's been so firmly and trench and maybe, yeah, sure sometimes, 538 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: but it's so it's not always about gender roles. It 539 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it's very much about gender roles at all. 540 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: Tracy Clark Floory interviewed a bunch of prodoms and wrote 541 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: about this in a piece for Alternate and found that 542 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: they're often, yes, a lot of powerful men with money 543 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: to spend because it is a price is a pricey pursuit. 544 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: It is a pricey pursuit, and they want to be 545 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: the ones getting bossed around for once in a while 546 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: and not have to think for themselves. Honestly, it resonated 547 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: with me because that's why I go to yoga. Tell 548 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: me what to do. I was not sure how you 549 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: were going to end that sentence, Kristen, Yeah, not too 550 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: much of a curveball there. Yeah. Yeah, they were a 551 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: lot of doms she talked to that said it's I'm 552 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: basically providing the same type of services therapy, like people 553 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: coming in and you know, there was a mention of 554 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: people getting emotional of letting go, of letting off steam, 555 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: of not having to make the decisions. And this was 556 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: also cited in the article, the New York MAGA article 557 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: that we read about financial doms too, about like one 558 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: of the women was quoted as saying something to the 559 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: effect of, you know, these men worked their whole lives 560 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: to make Boku bucks and for what, And they feel 561 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: like they're controlled and enslaved by their money, and so 562 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: they almost feel relief to give it away. And I mean, 563 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: that's obviously just one small example in this huge spectrum 564 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: of reasons why anyone would go. But you know, it 565 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: all harkens back to theories that we mentioned in our 566 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: first episode about why Victorians would be attracted to flag 567 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: porn or spanking porn or things like that because the 568 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: society was so closed and so repressed and everyone had 569 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 1: to be so concerned about all of these rules and 570 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 1: boundaries and norms, and so to to enter a completely 571 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: different dynamic that is so completely different from what you 572 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: would experience in day to day life would almost be 573 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: liberating to an extent well. And also to keeping in 574 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: mind that a lot of these fetishes are like developed 575 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 1: from an early age that like the awareness of them, 576 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: and so when it comes to the possible therapeutic aspects 577 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: of this and how a lot of prodoms say they 578 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: feel like they provide a therapeutic service, that also makes 579 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: sense because you know, once you're finally an adult and 580 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: perhaps you've been harboring this like kind of fantasy that 581 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: makes you feel uncomfortable because you think it's wrong in taboo, 582 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: and then to finally sort of play that out has 583 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: to also feel relieving in one way or another. It 584 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: might not yes, it might be relief through pain and 585 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: the release of endorphins. But uh yeah, yeah, And we 586 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: talked in our first episode about Norma ramost that piece 587 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: from Miss magazine talking about how, you know, we've had women, 588 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,280 Speaker 1: we women have had oppression shoved down our throats forever, 589 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: and so if we enjoy or want to pursue a 590 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: submissive role, then we need to deal with that, and 591 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: we need to uproot that, and we need to get 592 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 1: to the bottom of why we feel like like that 593 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: and then get rid of it, essentially because it's negative 594 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: and it's bad and we need to work around it. 595 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: But there are plenty of examples of people who are 596 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 1: oppressed for various other reasons, not just sexism, but also racism, poverty, 597 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: past trauma, who have ended up fetishizing whatever that dynamic is, 598 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are pursuing those 599 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,760 Speaker 1: marginalized roles in the real world. Yeah. This was something 600 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: that Melissa Fabos, who is a former prodom and author 601 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: of the book Whip Smart who now prefers a submissive role, 602 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: has talked about. She said, quote, I still live in 603 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: a culture. It was my consciousness, with instructions to be 604 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: a passive sexual object that my only power rest and 605 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: my sexuality as defined by men's desire. Might this create 606 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: some anxiety in my own psyche? I think so, Have 607 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: I eroticized those messages in order to locate them somewhere 608 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 1: that won't impede my progress as an empowered, independent woman 609 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,399 Speaker 1: in the rest of my life? Maybe so? But so 610 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: what so that? I mean, I think that that's a 611 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: good summary of sort of how you how you can 612 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: fetishize what we would normally think of as something that 613 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: might be impossible or wrong to fetishize. Yeah. And then 614 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: of course there's the idea that you know, some people 615 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: do just want to get kinky, they do just want 616 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: to pursue a hobby. Yeah. Well, and there was the 617 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,240 Speaker 1: protom too. Was talking to Tracy Clark Floory about how 618 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: there was there was a housewife that comes to her 619 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: and I mean, think of in our stereotypical culture, like 620 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: what more subservient role is there than a housewife? And 621 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: she just wanted to get kinky. She just wanted to 622 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,720 Speaker 1: do things maybe that her house husband business husband didn't 623 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: want to do. Yeah. I mean, we've learned through a 624 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 1: lot of information in these past two episodes. You know, 625 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,399 Speaker 1: as we've talked about there's no way, we could delve 626 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: into every different aspect of the b D, S, M 627 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: and dominatrix communities. Um, but it is interesting that you 628 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: have someone like Catherine rob Grilla, the French dominatrix, and 629 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 1: then you have a character like you know, Angelina Jolie 630 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: and Mr and Mrs Smith. It's it's interesting too to 631 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: look at how something that is very real for so 632 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,760 Speaker 1: many people can be almost a character and pop culture 633 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: and people are comfortable with it. But when you talk 634 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 1: about actual women, actual human people working and living in 635 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,399 Speaker 1: this lifestyle, that's when people are like, it's dirty, You're 636 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,839 Speaker 1: a prostitute. You should be arrested and ashamed. Um, it's 637 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: interesting the separation that pop culture gives us well, and 638 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 1: I would be curious too to know from prodoms or 639 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: just people within the media SAM community, whether the pop 640 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: cultural images that we see, especially for say the pop 641 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: stars dressing up in bondage gear to show that they're naughty, 642 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: whether that is something that they welcome or something that 643 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: just makes them roll their eyes or something that maybe 644 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 1: keeps the community more closeted, like because like you said, 645 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: I mean that seems there seems to be a disconnect 646 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: between the images that we accept and the ones that 647 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,239 Speaker 1: were like, oh no, no, you stay over there, you 648 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: stay and you're done to stay in San Francisco. So 649 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: I'm really really looking forward to the listener mail on this. 650 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: So you really want to hear from you all. What 651 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: do you think about all of this stuff we've been 652 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: talking about daring Kink Week, moms Stuff at how stuffworks 653 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: dot Com is our email address. You can tweet us 654 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: at mom stuff podcasts, or messages on Facebook, and we've 655 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,360 Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you. And 656 00:40:52,440 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: we come right back from a quick break. So since 657 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 1: it is kink Week, I wanted to share a letter 658 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 1: from Serene, who writes, I'm thirty years old and I 659 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: am a bondage model and video producer. I have a 660 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,879 Speaker 1: male business partner since bondage is usually a two person thing, 661 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: and we split the workload and the prophet season evenly. 662 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 1: I started doing this in two thousand nine and I 663 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,240 Speaker 1: love my job. While what I do is still defined 664 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: as pornography since the goal is to arouse, our site 665 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: does not do penetrations, orgasms, or oral sex or anything 666 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: like that. Most of the girls keep their panties on 667 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: the whole time. The fetish is bondage, and that doesn't 668 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: mean that sex is involved. The problem I have is 669 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: that I feel like I can't tell my family what 670 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 1: I do or have many female friends. My husband knows 671 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 1: and it's super supportive, but I feel like my family 672 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: will just see it as a disappointment, stating that I 673 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: had so much potential. It's funny, though, my father told 674 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: me growing up that he wanted me to have a 675 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: job where I could make money in my sleep, and 676 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,839 Speaker 1: since I produce content for my own site, I do 677 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: exactly that, but I can't tell him. The there is 678 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: she was having female friends. Most of my friends stopped 679 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 1: talking to me once they had children and really didn't 680 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: want me discussing my job with her husbands, even though 681 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,360 Speaker 1: when I did, I wasn't talking about rubbing latex polish 682 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: all over some girl. I was usually talking about something 683 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 1: like how I set up a remote desktop app on 684 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: my phone so I can still set things to upload 685 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,759 Speaker 1: when I'm out, or about a new filter on my 686 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: editing program that helps fill in light. So I wasn't 687 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: being inappropriate. They just knew that I was still talking 688 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 1: about a porn site, and it didn't matter. My question 689 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 1: is At what point is an anti feminist for all 690 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: of these women and men to look down on me 691 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: for choosing to do a profession that I want to 692 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: do because I like it. I work in one of 693 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 1: the few fields that women actually have power and fetish 694 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,360 Speaker 1: porn not only to customers allowed for a wide range 695 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,240 Speaker 1: of body type, they allow for variation and looks age. 696 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,479 Speaker 1: So I've hired women in their fifties it were still 697 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 1: sexy and amazing. How is it not empowering for a 698 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 1: fifty plus year old woman to be so self confident 699 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 1: that she was willing to get tied up on on 700 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,280 Speaker 1: for the arousal of other people and have a blast 701 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 1: doing it. I have a fun, amazing job. Why should 702 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: I be made to feel bad about it in the 703 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 1: name of feminism. Shouldn't feminism be about being able to 704 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 1: do whatever job you choose to do because you want it, 705 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 1: despite what everyone else thinks. So Serene, hopefully you have 706 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: listened to these past two episodes, because I, at least 707 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 1: I I don't think that you should feel bad about 708 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,879 Speaker 1: what you do in the name of feminism. I think 709 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: that your friends hang ups are just that there hang ups. 710 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 1: Maybe we need to do a follow up podcast and 711 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,919 Speaker 1: curious you to hear from other listeners on this as well. Yeah. Well, 712 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 1: I have a letter from a listener who would like 713 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: to remain anonymous, and she's writing in about our female 714 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: ejaculation episode. She says, I wanted to email you guys 715 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: about your squirting podcast since I thought it was very 716 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,760 Speaker 1: interesting and informative. Recently, I've also been looking up spirting 717 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,759 Speaker 1: since it's been something I've been trying to understand. The 718 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: reason why I'm emailing you is because what I am 719 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 1: about to say is going to be super personal, and 720 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: I don't want my friends asking about it because that 721 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: would be sort of embarrassing. So I squirt, or at 722 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 1: least I think I do. The amount of liquid changes 723 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,800 Speaker 1: depending on how aroused I am, sometimes a lot, sometimes 724 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: a little, So I don't know how you would really 725 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:23,319 Speaker 1: classify that on the ejaculation squirting meter, if only we 726 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 1: had an ejaculation squirting meter. Okay, that's my side anyway, 727 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,239 Speaker 1: she continues. At first, I was very embarrassed about it, 728 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: like humiliated. All I could think of was about how 729 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,720 Speaker 1: on orange is the new black? Squirting is a joke. 730 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,320 Speaker 1: I decided to start looking it up to comfort myself, 731 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 1: but the research was conflicting. One, I don't use a 732 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: dildo or anything. Nothing goes in my vagina when I squirt, 733 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,799 Speaker 1: meaning the G spot is never touched. The squirting only 734 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: happens when I'm having a really good time, so it's 735 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,399 Speaker 1: based purely on arousal. Too. It doesn't smell or look 736 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 1: like pe my p because I need to drink a 737 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 1: lot of water is usually dark yellow, so if I 738 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: p at the bed, it would stay three. The liquid 739 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 1: drives quickly, or at least for me, it does, which 740 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: rules out the pay thing a bit too. All of 741 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,760 Speaker 1: these things just didn't add up to anything I read. 742 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: Squirting I also find can be kind of hard to do, 743 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,760 Speaker 1: Like I don't do it every time, So if anyone 744 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,439 Speaker 1: is feeling a shame because they squirt, they shouldn't, mainly 745 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,799 Speaker 1: because squirting feels amazing. It's twice as pleasurable. Then if 746 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: you don't, like I feel like I am sinking into 747 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 1: the bed, the whole stigma around it is stupid. I 748 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: felt so passionately about this that I wanted to try 749 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:33,799 Speaker 1: and put it into my work somewhere. I'm a comic 750 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: book artist. No one should feel embarrassed. Like I did well. 751 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,319 Speaker 1: So thank you anonymous listener for your letter. I hope 752 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,799 Speaker 1: it helps out um fellow listeners who are feeling the 753 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,799 Speaker 1: same insecurities. And I'm glad that you've gotten over your 754 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: own insecurity and now we want to hear from you. 755 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 1: Mom's subbit house. Supworks dot com is our email address 756 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,319 Speaker 1: and for links to all of our social media as 757 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,880 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including 758 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:03,080 Speaker 1: the when with all of our dominatrix sources so you 759 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 1: can read along and learn more. Head on over to 760 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more on 761 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff 762 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: works dot com