WEBVTT - New Energy Storage Solutions Test Lithium-Ion’s Reign 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:03.320 This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:08.799 the BNAF podcast. Today's show is about long duration energy storage, 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.680 a potential answer to the intermittency for renewable energy, given 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:15.160 how fickle, whether it can be at times when you 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:17.880 need it for solar or wind power. How close are 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:19.040 we getting to that answer? 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:19.560 Well? 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:22.880 Today I am joined by analysts Yee Zoo, a clean 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:26.880 power specialist at BNAF, alongside Evelina Stoiku, who's from our 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:31.360 energy storage team. From electrochemical to thermal to mechanical. What 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.560 are the long duration energy storage technologies that are out 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.600 there and how mature are they? They draw upon notes 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:41.400 from the inaugural Long Duration Energy Storage Cost Survey. This 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:43.920 can be found at bn EF once logged into the 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:47.120 Bloomberg terminal, or at BNAF dot com. But right now, 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:51.080 let's jump into our conversation with Yee and Evelina about 0:00:51.120 --> 0:01:05.080 some of the possible opportunities for long duration energy storage. Evelina, 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:06.199 thank you for joining today. 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:09.240 Hi Dana, nice to be here, and Yee. 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:10.160 Thank you for joining on the show. 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:11.480 Thanks for having Austin. 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:15.399 So we're going to talk about long duration energy storage 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:17.640 and the first question has to be what do we 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.080 mean by long What is the time frame that makes 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:22.600 it long duration versus just energy storage. 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:24.840 Well, that is a very good question, and the reality 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:27.800 is that there's no consensus on the definition of long 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:32.520 duration energy storage. BENIF defines it as a storage technology 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:36.800 that can offer disurgeration of at least six hours. However, 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.280 different sources define it in different ways. For example, the 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.840 US Department of Energy classifies long drage and energy storage 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:47.600 with duration of at least ten hours, while Chinese agencies 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:49.920 define it as four. So it really varies. 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:53.000 So the companies that are creating the technology for long 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:56.720 duration energy storage would not then classify themselves as long 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:00.360 duration energy storage providers necessarily because in many res they 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.040 may just be making batteries at how different applicability and 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:05.400 so is this is this an industry that I guess 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:10.000 largely look at each other as competitors and as technologies 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:12.360 that can be swapped out for each other or do 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.120 they have quite different use cases? 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:17.160 Well, they can have very different use cases. And again, 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:21.000 because we're talking about technologies that can offer anywhere between 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.480 six to twenty four to one hundred hours, they're really 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:28.680 very different applications that are fit for for these durations. 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:32.080 So many of these companies or technologies cannot be swapped 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:36.880 out directly and their success might be dependent on different parameters. 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:39.400 So we can talk about those different use cases as 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:41.840 we get into the technologies. And I think then the 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.760 question is, because there's no strict definition of what this 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:48.360 industry is, you had to make some choices regarding which 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.120 technologies you were going to look at, and you know 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.280 what those use cases were. So which technologies did you 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:57.519 decide to focus on and why did you pick them? 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:02.040 Well, in our work we covered of our of different technologies. Specifically, 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:05.960 we covered seven broad long duration energy storage technology groups 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:09.680 and twenty technology types under each of these, but broadly 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:13.880 you can think of lds based on major classifications such 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:19.880 as electrochemical, mechanical, or thermal. Electrochemical storage technologies basically store 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:24.360 energy through reversible chemical reactions. They're also typically referred to 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.200 as batteries, and the most widely widely known type of 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:31.239 battery that's electrochemicals lithium ion, but others include flow batteries. 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:35.240 Now with mechanical energy is stored through utilizing the physical 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:38.600 movement of materials to store and release energy, and examples 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:42.240 of these technologies include compressed air and liquid air energy storage, 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:46.040 gravity energy storage, compressed gas energy storage, and novel pumped 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.360 hydro at last pog least with thermal we have energy 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:53.000 stored through heat, so energy can be used for heating 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:55.600 or cooling and power generation later. And there are multiple 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.160 subcategories under thermal energy storage. 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:00.440 So oftentimes when we end up talking about on the 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:04.040 show or lithium ion batteries because invariably they're a source 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.360 of storage for the energy system, but also very much 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.680 in vehicles, which is another space that we cover. And 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:11.480 you know, we've just gone through a series of different 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:15.960 technologies that you looked at within these electrochemical, mechanical, and 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:19.760 thermal categories. Of those three categories, or if you want 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.800 to name a specific technology that works too, which ones 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:25.799 are most cost competitive with lithium ion batteries. 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.520 So when we're thinking about the cost competitiveness of long 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:33.480 duration energy storage technologies against lithium ion, there are multiple 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:36.000 ways to think about it. The costs really vary by 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.480 dissart duration, and it also really varies by by region. 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.920 While the typical storage duration for lithiumon batteries is two 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:45.960 to four hours, long duration energy storage technologies tend to 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.400 be more cost competitive over longer durations. So if we're 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.880 to look at that specific duration of two to four hours, 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:55.000 actually none of these long duration energy storage technologies is 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:59.000 really competitive. However, one of the very unique characteristics of 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.839 long duration energy storage is that the costs, specifically capital 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:06.919 costs drop at higher durations. That happens because the energy 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:10.120 and the power related components of these systems tend to 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:13.279 be decoupled versus this is not the case for lifiumion. 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.040 If we take an example of flow batteries, you can 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.040 increase the dis sharg duration of a system by adding 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.800 bigger tanks to store the liquid electrolyte versus in the 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.039 case of liftumine batteries, you would need to add more 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:28.119 battery cells. So for lds, this means that capital costs 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.440 drop for higher durations and they become more cost competitive 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:35.279 for these higher durations. The technologies that we've seen as 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.159 the most cost competitive for these higher durations tend to 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:41.560 be compressed air and thermal energy storage, and many of 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.920 these others might become cost competitive for longer durations. 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.000 Now in the storage market, specifically, the THEAMYA and you've 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:50.960 seen China be a really dominant force in terms of 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:54.479 really driving cost declines and producing its scale. And is 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.120 China also involved in some of these other technologies and 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:59.080 which ones are they most interested in? 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.640 Yeah, well, China has been leading the Lisima batteries because 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:05.440 of this massive adoption of lisa my batteries in both 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:09.520 electrical vehicle industry and also stationary energy storage markets. For 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.640 launderation storage, actually, China is also leading on that front 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:16.480 as well. So the technology deployment in China for launderation 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.520 storage is that generally cheaper compared to the rest of boards. 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.719 This is especially true for technologies such as compressed aian 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:25.960 gies storage and flow batteries, which China has considered them 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:29.240 as the major focus for now for the nature, so 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:33.120 most of those technologies actually at least fifteen percent cheaper 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:36.360 compared to those deployed in other markets. This is mainly 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.680 due to the more advanced commercial status of those technology 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.359 deployment in China compared to the rest of boards. So 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.920 while other nations are still trying to understand the value 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:49.839 of different launderation storages and also developing piloting projects, China 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.880 is starting to deploy those massive projects. We're seeing some 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:57.320 records setting large scale projects that has been developed in China. 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.200 Some of those are with gig wle hours scaled well, 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.200 but most of those projects deployed in the rest of 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:04.960 WOARLD is actually less than five macworld or less than 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:08.080 ten awards, so those are mainly those piloting projects. So 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:12.160 this massive adoption of laundrosan storage deployed in China has 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:14.640 been one of the major driver in driving down the 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.000 course of laundrotion storage in China currently. 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:19.440 And is it a fragmented market or are there a 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:22.320 few suppliers that are actually really heavily involved in some 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.480 of these specific technologies, because the parallel I think about 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.880 is the gigafactories that have risen in the luthium ion space, 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:33.160 and those are certainly very big projects focused on you know, 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.080 specific companies that you're doing them. So how fragmented or 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:38.000 consolidated is this market in China? 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:42.080 So lntruition storage is you're an emergent technology, so there 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:46.280 are some emergent companies entering into this market. For instance, 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.120 for flow batteries, we are seeing over thirty energy storage 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:52.400 system greater in this market, so this is quite a 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.720 large number. And this number is continuously increasing over time 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:57.600 as well. So I would say this is a quite 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:00.920 fragmented market for now, but over time on when the 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.440 market is mature, we're likely to see some consolidation or 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:08.400 some markets some companies may need to acceed markets ultimately 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.360 because of the fist competition and limited market size. 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:15.480 And how supportive is the policy environment in China towards 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:19.720 these technologies, because they've certainly been very supportive of lithiumyon 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.120 and of solar. Is this very much in the government sites. 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:27.160 As well, definitely, So the Chinese government has released multiple 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.840 policies driving the adoption of laundrousian storage since twenty twenty two. 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.120 So it has identified laundursion storage as one of the 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:37.200 key abler for its energy in netz zero transition by 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.240 twenty sixty. And also it has set its target to 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:44.360 reach early stage commercialization of nondrousion storage by twenty twenty 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.520 five and full commercialization by twenty thirty. So we are 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.880 seeing a large number of I think utility scale companies 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.880 and also great companies or provincial governments that's starting to 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.080 enter into this market and start to build those large 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:01.080 scale demonstration projects to get first move. And this has 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.800 been one of the major driver dropping the adoption of 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:08.160 laundrotion storage in China currently. In addition, China mandates a 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.839 certain amount of energy storage to be paired with new 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.280 build wind and solar projects, So this has been one 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:16.880 of the major driver of energy storage adoption in China currently, 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:20.679 and this applies to both short duration storage and laundurition storage. 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:23.760 So this has been meaningful I think policy in driving 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.480 the adoption of those laundroation storage in China. 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.600 Yeah, we really robust domestic market because the renewables industry 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.280 is taking off, so then this follows and complements it. Yeah, 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.280 which then leads me to are there other countries that 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.280 are also really keeping a close eye on this? And 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:42.920 I'm thinking about perhaps the US. We have the Inflation 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:45.360 Reduction Act that has put renewables on the map in 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.120 the US. Has that then also created a market for 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:51.400 long duration energy storage? And is there really anywhere in 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:53.439 the world that's looking like China. 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:53.760 At the moment? 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:57.520 So I think in nan Chinese markets, there's a growing 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.679 consensus in terms of the importance of laundrosians over time, 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.640 So many countries are calling for need of launchurition storage 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.360 as one of the key able for its energy transition 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:09.360 over time. But I would say most of the policies 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:13.080 support for from non Chinese markets are quite limited to date. 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.079 One of the major reasons is that most of the 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:20.320 projects in other markets are economic driven rather than policy driven. 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:24.240 So we needs strong financial incentives to drive those adoptions 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.720 of those projects in non Chinese markets. But I think 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.760 the financial incentives are quite limited to date, which is 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:37.040 not sufficient to drive the economic buildouts of laundrous storage 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:37.600 to date. 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:42.760 So you've already established that these are capital intensive projects 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.240 and in some cases very much right now. They are 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:49.920 not compelling from a cost standpoint in that they don't 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.800 pay for themselves. So we are certainly looking in an 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:56.280 industry that needs to be experiencing pretty dramatic cost declines 0:10:56.320 --> 0:11:00.960 to have much wider deployment in the future without policy support. 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.880 Outside of China, though, where a lot of the support 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.920 for clean tech is often coming from the companies themselves 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:11.680 and they're looking for independent backing. You know, what is 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.560 the real driving force for long duration energy storage? Is 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:18.600 it actually policy in Europe or North America or is 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.520 it really coming from private industry and investors. 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.880 I think there are two types of revenue resource or 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:29.040 investment resources for launduration storage currently, so partially they come 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.000 from the government, So the Department of Energy of the 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:36.160 US is actually selecting a few technologies and provide funding 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:40.080 for those technologies to establish their demonstration projects. And on 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.480 the other hand, I think a lot of high profile 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.840 companies are receiving a lot of fundings from PBC firms. 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:48.719 We are interesting in developing the next twenty four to 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.640 seven clean firm technologies which can enable the future Nazero transition. 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.760 So actually we're seeing a surge of investment in laundering 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:57.960 storage since the past three years. 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:00.360 One of the things that Clerk Curry, who a lot 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.360 of the work that we have on the innovation side 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.080 of things, she pointed out that actually a quarter of 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:07.840 VC financing at this point in time is actually going 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.400 into clean technologies, and so this very much echoes the 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.080 fact that a lot of vcs have their strategy to 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.840 see some of these technologies where there is so much need, 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:19.640 hoping that in the future they will actually end up 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.040 getting much bigger and growing at scale. 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.720 And I think in addition, there are some corporate firms, 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.400 technology firms, big technology firms in US are highly interesting 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:33.000 in those technologies is one way to enable your twenty 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:36.600 four seven energies supply for their data centers such as Microsoft, 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.360 such as Google, all of those are actually looking to 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.120 developing those new technologies at their data center as well. 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:47.520 So companies that are actually really interested in decarbonizing are 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.600 leading the way and actually driving technology deployment. 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:54.920 Yes, it's currently I think those corporate firms investing significantly 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:57.680 in those new technologies, and they appear to be the 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:00.679 frame runner of this technology sector. 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:02.760 So at the beginning of the show, we talked about 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.360 how this really isn't a cohesive space, lots of different 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:09.200 definitions regarding what constitutes longeration energy storage to begin with, 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:12.320 and this is emerging tech. Well, there are some incumbent 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.480 technologies and we'll get to that because some of those 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:18.280 are becoming popular again. But in this world of emerging tech, 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:21.640 and we can continue to use China as the framework 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.079 to discuss this to begin with, But which technologies are 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.000 most cost competitive in China and perhaps some of the 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.600 ones that maybe are more cost competitive in other parts 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:33.400 of the world. Let's pick a couple sample technologies and 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.600 talk about them, and also talk about kind of the 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:37.480 mechanics we'll get into some of the mechanics of how 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.600 they work, because I think it would be nice for 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:43.160 us to have some sort of picture in our mind 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:45.720 of what some of this technology actually looks like in 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.600 the amount of space it takes up. So when we 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:49.720 first start thinking about this, I mean one of the 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:52.680 ones that I'm aware of is compressed gas. Can you 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.720 talk a little bit about compressed gas as a technology. 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:59.280 So in general of China is cheap of foremost relatively 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:03.040 too launche usion storage technologies, including compressed there and in 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.000 the flow batteries, which has been deployed since ninety seventies. 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.839 So it has been a long history of those technologies 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.120 and this is the major focus of China's currently. So 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.280 I would say most of those technology relatively material. Launduction 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.600 storage technologies are cheaper in China, are way more cost 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:21.040 competitive in China compared to the rest of awards. But 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.720 there are more laundrotion storage technology that are being developed 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:28.160 outside of China. Infecting our costs survey, we have received 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.960 cost data for over twenty different laundation storage technologies globally 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.280 and twenty yeah twenty, So most of those technologies that 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:39.400 developed outside of China including technologies that compressed gas or 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.920 other technologies which are just the emergent and their adoption 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:45.800 of those technologies in China are quite limited to date. 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.360 And what is the split between technologies that existed from 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.920 a while ago, so the nineteen seventies, like pumped hydro 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.680 or compressed gas versus new and like really properly new 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:57.800 technology that's emerged in let's say the last five to 0:14:57.840 --> 0:14:58.400 ten years. 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:03.000 Yeah, I think among all a different launchrution stores technologists 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:05.720 compressed the guests and uncompressed area and the flow batteries 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.440 are too, Matio technologists. Other technologists are just emerging in 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.720 most of them are as piloting phase or on the face. 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:14.840 So many of them are actually in this piloting phase 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:17.600 of that twenty. Yes, I suppose there's something to be 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.120 said for with the older existing technologies, they've had some 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.440 time to ramp up, and then that would be the 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.800 reason that we're actually looking for some additional solutions that 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.640 can be used in a way that perhaps the existing 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.760 technologies can't. Okay, So Evelina, I did ask for some 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.920 sort of technical picture in my mind of a technology, 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:38.280 and there's one in particular that I would like to 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.720 know more about because I think the title of it 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:45.320 actually is really compelling. It's called supercritical CO two energy storage. 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.600 What is it and what does it look like? 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:53.720 Yeah, well maybe we need to go back to physics class, 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:58.280 and please no, So if we go back to our 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:03.440 physics class, the phase of materials depends on pressure and temperature, 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.760 and basically, with supercritical CO two, it's a fluid state 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:10.880 of carbon dioxide where it's held above its critical temperature 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:15.200 and critical pressure. So if you, for example, lower the pressure, 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.000 it becomes a gas, or if you lower the temperature, 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:20.440 it becomes a liquid. So the phase of material depends 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:25.560 ultimately on pressure and temperature, and for supercritical carbon dioxide 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:29.480 CO two, it's just a state where that material, or 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:32.160 that a substance, it's held at a temperature and pressure 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:36.840 above that critical point where distinct liquid and gas phases 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:37.800 do not exist. 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.680 So when I started working in this industry, renewables were 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:45.960 ninety percent hydro power, and as such, as someone who 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.680 perhaps wasn't very creative when approaching their master's thesis, I 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.680 decided to write my master's thesis about hydropower. So invariably 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.440 I have a personal interest in this, but additionally we 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:58.840 have a lot of aging infrastructure in that space, and 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:02.280 it has historically served as a source of kind of 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:06.159 a great source of flexibility and energy storage. And as 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.840 we are trying to increase the amount of renewables on 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:12.760 the grid and we are looking to new and old technologies, 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:14.920 I want to know a little bit about what potential 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:17.919 pump tydro has in the future of the storage space 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.560 and whether or not it will be a comeback story. 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.440 So I think palm tydro is indeed a very well 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:28.360 established technology and the destorage industry, and in fact, palm 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:32.439 hydro is the dominant technology besides lisima batdteries today. But 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.320 as we all know that developing pump tido could be 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:39.040 quite challenging both from the I think capital requirement perspective 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.879 and also the environmental impact perspective. In the addition, it 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.800 requires a very long time to get those projects developed. 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.600 But as we are seeing higher renewbal penetration growthing, there's 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:53.399 some renewed interest in palm taijo in markets such as China, 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:57.680 such as India, such as Europe such as Australia and others. 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.199 So there's indeed a comeback story of pump tijo but 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:05.359 there are some challenges associated with developing those green field 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:09.280 projects globally. To date, most of those activities actually in China. 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:11.520 Again, so there's the new projects, but then there's the 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.680 aging infrastructure. Is that something that people are looking at 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:18.160 in close detail and when we're then repairing and retrofitting 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:21.880 existing pump hydro projects, is there new technology within that 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:24.439 like best available technology that's moving in or is that 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:26.920 space not really changed a lot in the last several decades. 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.120 In fact, we are seeing some new pump tido technologies 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:33.280 or we called novel pump tydo technologies, so we have 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:36.160 actually collected some cost data for those projects as well. 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:39.280 So one of the I think high profile technology is 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:43.000 called high density pump tijo. So instead of using water 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:46.200 as a storage medium, this type of new technology used 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.600 flud with higher density than water, so this allows a 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:53.719 lower elevation and smaller footprints required to deliver a similar 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.680 amount of energy compared to those conventional ones. However, most 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:00.760 of those novel pump ygo technologists, as you, very early 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.600 stage of developments and most of those technology will be 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:07.119 developed by twenty thirty, so it's not a neutron story. 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.520 So let's jump in on another technology that is of 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.840 interest at the moment, So gravity energy storage. I like 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:15.639 the name of this one too, just because it has 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.520 gravity in the name. Talk to me about gravity energy storage. 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.600 What is it and kind of what is the potential? 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:26.480 Well. Gravity energy storage is another technology that is gaining 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:29.920 a lot of attention in use and media, primarily also 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.640 because it's very different from a lot of the electrochemical 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.240 solutions that were used to and seen in the past. 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.800 The way it works is by using energy to raise mass, 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.720 storing energy and potential energy by maintaining it elevated, and 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:48.400 then dropping it and releasing that energy when they want 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:50.800 to release the energy back to the grid. So it 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:55.720 basically uses electricity or energy to lift these masses when 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:59.760 prices are low, and then lower it when prices are 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.239 are high or where energy is needed to discharge it 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:06.360 in the grid. There are many advantages to gravity energy storage, 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:08.639 but also quite a lot of drawbacks. One of the 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:13.200 advantages is that the design is relatively simple. It's mechanical, 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.440 so it also has a long lifetime. These systems tend 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.679 to have a long lifetime because their life depends on 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.359 the lifetime of mechanical components. Which are generally pretty advanced. 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:26.080 They don't degrade, and we were quite familiar with it 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.760 because they're also used in other industries. However, drawbacks include 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:35.040 low round trip efficiency and very significant physical footprints, so 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:38.320 you needed a lot of space for such systems, so 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.520 it makes citing them and finding appropriate locations for them 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:42.400 quite difficult. 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.240 So another issue with land use. But what does low 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:46.680 round trip efficiency mean? 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:50.440 Basically means that you need to put more energy into 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:52.800 charging it and you get less energy out of it, 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:56.000 so you have a lot of energy losses while charging 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:56.760 and discharging. 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:59.600 Yeah, it's for fear of stating the obvious batteries in 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:02.359 many respects and well hydrogen actually being one of those 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:04.679 things where there are use cases for it, but it 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:08.160 takes energy to make energy is energy storage invariably, there's 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:09.639 so much that we have to put into it in 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:11.840 order for it to be effective. And then it's that 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:14.400 ratio right on what it is that you actually get 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:16.600 out of it when you need it and for how long. 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:20.399 So nothing is a perfect solution. Everything fits to a 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:25.359 specific use case and in this case enabling renewables. So 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:27.800 I want to circle back on cost because cost is 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:31.160 an important part of deployment of any technology. And if 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:35.160 we think about China where they are actively supporting long 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.639 duration energy storage co located with renewables, and you're seeing 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:42.520 this roll out happening, what kind of percentage or even 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:44.959 in absolute terms, what are we seeing in terms of 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:48.280