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Speaker 1: Now from our nation's capital. This is Bloomberg Sound on

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Speaker 1: the subject of today is tackling this issue of EESG.

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Speaker 1: He's poorly performing woke financial scams or radical left garbage

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Speaker 1: that would never be funded on their own. This is

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Speaker 1: unacceptable to the President and that is why he will

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Speaker 1: beetle this bill if it does come to his Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Sound on Politics, policy and perspective from DC's top name

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Speaker 1: share been times in America's history of intense global competition

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Speaker 1: with another superpower who does not share our values. This

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Speaker 1: is one of those times. The truth is that God

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Speaker 1: is great, Beer is good, and the United States of

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Speaker 1: America is star spangled off Bloomberg Sound On with Joe

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Speaker 1: Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. President Biden warms up the Vitail Pen.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the fastest hour in politics with EESG in

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Speaker 1: focus to day in Washington. After the Senate pass legislation

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Speaker 1: to block the Labor Department from enforcing its new ESG

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Speaker 1: investing rule with the help of two Democrats by the way,

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Speaker 1: setting up a showdown with the White House. We will

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Speaker 1: explore the debate and consider the outcome with Barry Riddles

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Speaker 1: of Riddles Wealth Management host of the Master's in Business podcast,

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Speaker 1: The Secretary of Defense delivering another tough message to China.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk with Bloomberg Washington Bureau chief Peggy Collins about

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration's delicate dance with Beijing and as CEPAC

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Speaker 1: gets underway this week, the conference making news for who

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Speaker 1: is not attending. We'll talk about that in all of

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Speaker 1: our stories with our panel Bloomberg Politics contributor Jeanie Chanzano,

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Speaker 1: and today Lester Munson from BGR Group is with us.

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Speaker 1: The vote was mostly party line. Yays on this vote

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Speaker 1: or fifty the days or forty six, and the joint

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Speaker 1: resolution is passed under the previous order of the Senate

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Speaker 1: will resume legislative session. Every Republican and two Democrats in

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Speaker 1: the Senate voting to pass a bill repealing a Labor

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Speaker 1: Department rule allowing private actor workplace retirement plans to consider

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Speaker 1: ESG right we talk and read about so often here

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Speaker 1: on Bloomberg when selecting and monitoring their investments. The House

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Speaker 1: also passed this, so President Biden says he's not going

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Speaker 1: to sign it. Press Secretary Karee John fear this is

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Speaker 1: unacceptable to the President and that is why he will

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Speaker 1: veto this bill if it does come to his desk veto.

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Speaker 1: Not that this is a new debate. Governor Rhonda Santis

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Speaker 1: has made ESG a pillar of his now national platform.

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Speaker 1: He's recently calling to banned state agencies in Florida from

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Speaker 1: investing in funds that follow ESG guideline. I don't know

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Speaker 1: where this stuff comes from, but these elites grabbing and

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Speaker 1: they really want to impose it on the rest of us.

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Speaker 1: So it's called environment social governance, but basically I think

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Speaker 1: what it's evolved into is a mechanism to inject political

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Speaker 1: ideology into investment decisions, corporate governance, and really just the

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Speaker 1: the everyday economy that is not ultimately something that is

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Speaker 1: going to work out well. Donald Trump says it a

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Speaker 1: bit more directly. These people are sick. These poorly performing,

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Speaker 1: woke financial scams are radical left garbage that would never

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Speaker 1: be funded on their own and certainly never be funded

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Speaker 1: on their own merits. The entire EESC scheme is designed

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Speaker 1: to funnel your retirement money to the maniacs on the

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Speaker 1: radical left. Maniacs sick people. So instead of talking to

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Speaker 1: a politician about this, we thought this would be a

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Speaker 1: very good time. Since things are actually happening in Washington

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Speaker 1: and we're anticipating this, veto a good time to talk

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Speaker 1: with an expert from outside the bubble here, and none

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Speaker 1: more appropriate than Barry Riddles, the chair and chief investment

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Speaker 1: officer at Riddle Twelfth Management. You know him as host

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Speaker 1: of the Masters in Business podcast. He's with us now, Barry,

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Speaker 1: welcome back. Does anyone in Washington actually know what they're

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Speaker 1: talking about with the SG? Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: starting with that. I'm listening to this and I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: just astonished. I would be embarrassed to talk about a

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Speaker 1: subject that I knew nothing about and reveal my ignorance

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Speaker 1: in such an egregious way. But I guess that's why

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Speaker 1: I'm not in politics. We're kind of specialize in that here. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know the irony of all this, uh you know,

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Speaker 1: criticism of people spending their money how they want, investing

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Speaker 1: the money how they want. Really, you could trace the

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Speaker 1: history of ESG investing back to, Hey, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to put my money into sinstocks. I'm against investing in

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Speaker 1: adult entertainment alcohol. Today you would have to add cannabis, gambling, tobacco.

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Speaker 1: That's the sin stocks are the original. Hey, let's let's

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Speaker 1: use our investment dollars and not reward people who are

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Speaker 1: engaging in behavior that conflicts with our values. And so

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Speaker 1: anyone who knows the his of this nose, you go

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Speaker 1: all the way back. It was never originally a left

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Speaker 1: versus right debate. It's how can I make my portfolio

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Speaker 1: reflect my values? And that's whether I'm a Catholic, whether

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Speaker 1: I'm a Muslim with Sharia law. That there are so

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Speaker 1: many things that are just so much more nuanced than

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Speaker 1: the crazy we hear out of DC. It's it's unfortunate

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Speaker 1: that they've decided to politicize something that many many investors

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Speaker 1: find is a useful way to think about their portfolios.

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Speaker 1: We should also know this regulation allows to retire if

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Speaker 1: you read this, if you take a minute, it allows

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Speaker 1: retirement plans to consider ESG if it is in the

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Speaker 1: best financial interest of the beneficiaries. That's frequently not included.

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Speaker 1: But Barry, a lot of this comes down, or maybe

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Speaker 1: all of it, to defining ESG and defining what kinds

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Speaker 1: of companies are included here. What you would call green

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Speaker 1: may not be what someone else defies as green. Right,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And you know the problem that ESG

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Speaker 1: has had from an investment approach is that it's very broad,

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Speaker 1: it's very general, and if I'm buying a ESG mutual

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Speaker 1: fund or an ESG ETF, well, then I'm adhering to

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Speaker 1: someone else's definitions of what do we want to overweight

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Speaker 1: and reward with our capital and what do we want

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Speaker 1: to underweight or completely exclude because we don't like either

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Speaker 1: their business or the impact of their business. And you know,

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Speaker 1: that might have been an adequate approach twenty five thirty

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Speaker 1: years ago, but thanks to technology and thanks to software,

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Speaker 1: you know, we don't have to operate with you know,

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Speaker 1: with a sledgehammer. We could use a scalpel and get

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Speaker 1: very very precise. Senator Patty Murray, of course, a Democrat

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Speaker 1: from Washington, made the point on the Senate floor during

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Speaker 1: debate that we're forgetting a couple of here. Everybody focuses

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Speaker 1: on the E and that's got its own political implications

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Speaker 1: and huge policy implications here, but listen to how she

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Speaker 1: put it. Berry. When Republicans push for legislation to protect

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Speaker 1: local and state governments that divest from companies based on

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Speaker 1: their policies, towards Israel. That is a form of ESG investing.

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Speaker 1: It is also worth noting if you manage a retirement

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Speaker 1: plan for a faith based organization and you want to

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Speaker 1: make sure you are investing in accordance with your client's faith,

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Speaker 1: that too would be ESG investing. And when we call

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Speaker 1: for divesting from foreign adversaries due to human rights and

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Speaker 1: national security concerns, again we are actually talking about ESG investing.

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Speaker 1: So the way you interpret this concept may actually reflect

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Speaker 1: your politics. Berry, But I guess the point that she

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Speaker 1: was making is ESG is actually pretty neutral. It's what

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Speaker 1: you do with it. Yeah, exactly, that's exactly right. Look,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the more interesting technologies that have

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Speaker 1: developed over the past couple of years has been direct indexing.

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Speaker 1: And you take your portfolio and let's say it's a

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Speaker 1: dozen mutual funds and ETFs, and say to the software, okay,

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Speaker 1: convert these ten mutual funds into all of the individual

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Speaker 1: companies within those funds so I can hold them directly

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Speaker 1: instead of through your fund or your index. And once

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Speaker 1: you do that, software is magic and it lets you

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Speaker 1: do things that you can do before. One of my

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Speaker 1: favorite examples, and this is why it's Katie was clearly

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Speaker 1: onto something. It's not a left or right thing. It's

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Speaker 1: a tool and how you apply it. If you happen

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Speaker 1: to be pro life and you say, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to support any companies that either fund abortion or abortion medication,

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Speaker 1: or embryonic research or fetal cell to fetal cells or

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Speaker 1: fetal tissues or stem cell research, well old told, that's

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Speaker 1: about seventy five names that will come out of your portfolio.

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Speaker 1: And now your retirement account is no longer going to

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Speaker 1: fund something that you don't believe in. It. It's not

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Speaker 1: a left or right thing. Now you certainly can say

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Speaker 1: I'm anti war. I don't want to invest in gun

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Speaker 1: manufacturers or cluster bombs, or defense contractors or land mines,

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Speaker 1: and maybe that's a little more left than right. Or

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Speaker 1: animal testing fur and leather, and there's lots of ways

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Speaker 1: to slice this, but that's the beauty of it. You

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Speaker 1: could do however you want to apply your values to

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Speaker 1: your portfolio, and that should be your right as an investor.

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Speaker 1: I hope this is helpful for people because we talk

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Speaker 1: a lot about this without a lot of information. Barry

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Speaker 1: the White House says repealing this rule limits options for investors.

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Speaker 1: That was kind of the angle that they're taking to

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Speaker 1: justify ETO is does that justify a veto? Is that

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Speaker 1: the right way of looking at it? I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think so. From my perspective, I like the direct index

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Speaker 1: approach as opposed to the broad Hey, we all have

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Speaker 1: this value, and therefore we're gonna choose these funds. That's

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Speaker 1: not my personal preference. Sure, However, if a four to

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Speaker 1: one K plan or a pension fund or some other

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Speaker 1: endowment says, here's how we want to invest on behalf

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Speaker 1: of all of our beneficiaries. Because they've made it clear

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Speaker 1: to us that this is important to them, why shouldn't

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Speaker 1: they have that option? Now, by the way, there's some

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Speaker 1: fascinating stuff out of Texas, which obviously generates a ton

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Speaker 1: of revenue from energy and oil and natural gas, and

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Speaker 1: they've said, I'm trying to remember which bank they tossed out.

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Speaker 1: They said, hey, you're you're not investing in oil, and

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Speaker 1: you're not allowing any of your clients to invest in oil,

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Speaker 1: and we're an oil state. Get out of Texas. There

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Speaker 1: ascend expressing their values by not putting money with that bank,

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Speaker 1: which is really a form of ESG. It's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of ironic. Who's coming to you? Lastly, Barry Riddolds, who

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Speaker 1: are they? Who's the clients most common client? And I

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Speaker 1: heard you talking about this on Masters in Business recently.

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Speaker 1: I think widow was one word that you use. But

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Speaker 1: how many millennials are coming in versus boomers? Is there

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Speaker 1: a stereotype or do investors get this better than Washington.

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Speaker 1: So there's two ways to think about this. One way

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Speaker 1: to think about this is a screen for eliminating some

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Speaker 1: types of risk. And just look what happened with the

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Speaker 1: trained arailment that you know they had all sorts of

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Speaker 1: governance problems prior, they might not have made it through

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Speaker 1: a certain type of ESG screen. When we look at

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Speaker 1: under governance, business, ethics, corruption and bribery, gender diversity, women

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Speaker 1: on boards, people of color on boards, governance struck, you're

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Speaker 1: an accountability that acts as a screen, and we see

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Speaker 1: a lot of interest in that. On the institutional side,

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Speaker 1: what people typically think about in terms of ESG is

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Speaker 1: environmental things and social things. Meaning on the environmental side,

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Speaker 1: it's deforestation and resource use and carbon footprint and things

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Speaker 1: like that. Social can be things anything from human rights

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Speaker 1: to data privacy and there's a tendency for that to

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Speaker 1: skew more towards women, and there's a tendency for that

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Speaker 1: to skew more towards the youngest generation. And hey, we're

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Speaker 1: right in the middle of a giant thirty thirty five

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Speaker 1: trillion dollar generational wealth transfer. First that's going to go

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Speaker 1: to the surviving spouse, statistically the wife, and then it

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Speaker 1: will eventually go to the kids. And both of those

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Speaker 1: demographics have a stronger preference towards ESG investing then the

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Speaker 1: investing community as a whole. So I think this is

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Speaker 1: going to be something that there will be some demand

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Speaker 1: for over the next couple of years, if not decades.

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Speaker 1: The view of Barry Riddle, it's what a great pleasure. Barry,

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Speaker 1: thanks for being with us, the host of the Masters

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Speaker 1: in Business podcasts, which you can find wherefore you to

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Speaker 1: download your podcast and listen to the show all weekend

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Speaker 1: long right here on Bloomberg Radio. Let's assemble the panel

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Speaker 1: for their take on what we just heard. Jeanie Schanzano

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Speaker 1: is here Bloomberg Politics contributor Democratic Analysts, along with Republican

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Speaker 1: strategists Lester Months and Principle Like government relations firm BG

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Speaker 1: our group. Great to have both of you with us here, Jeanie,

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Speaker 1: How did e SG become this lefty, woke idea based

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Speaker 1: on what we just heard from Barry? Somebody went wrong

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Speaker 1: somewhere with the interpretation, because that's not at all actually

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Speaker 1: what this is supposed to be, is it? Yeah, that's right,

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Speaker 1: And I wish they would just play your conversation with

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Speaker 1: Barry over and over again to clarify so much of

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Speaker 1: what is wrong in the way this has talked about

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Speaker 1: in Congress and in politics overall. And so, you know,

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Speaker 1: explaining how and why this has happened, I think is

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Speaker 1: well beyond me. But in one thing I would add

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Speaker 1: is that it is very much in line with what

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Speaker 1: we're hearing from this sort of descantis approach to governing

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Speaker 1: of late you know, you have people like Tim Caine

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Speaker 1: saying this is a bad idea because it runs counter

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Speaker 1: to free market principles. Let people take into account in

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Speaker 1: their investments what they want to take into account. And

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Speaker 1: as you so accurately mentioned, you're going to do that

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Speaker 1: when you are going to be able to make money

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Speaker 1: with it, So they're not going to be doing it

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Speaker 1: in the absence of making money. The idea, that's the idea.

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Speaker 1: And you know, but you look at what DeSantis has done.

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Speaker 1: Somebody who used to be about limited government is all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden about using the power of the state

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Speaker 1: to crack down on corporations. So it seems to me

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Speaker 1: the sort of fisser on the Republican side in terms

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Speaker 1: of what they released and for free market, small government

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Speaker 1: or the use of governmental power to tell people what

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Speaker 1: they can and can't do, or corporations what they can

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Speaker 1: can't do. But if you put the word woke on it, Lester,

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Speaker 1: I guess it's good politics. This seems to be. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is a slam dunk for Rhonda Santis, for Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump and others who could be the next president of

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Speaker 1: the United States. Yeah, I may be the dissenter here.

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Speaker 1: This is not just de Santis and Trump. It's all

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Speaker 1: the Republicans of every stripe and some Democrats who are

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Speaker 1: concerned about this. And I think I think there's more

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Speaker 1: nuanced to this issue than we've been discussing. Right, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about people's pension plans here. They often do not

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Speaker 1: have agency in the decisions that are being made about

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Speaker 1: how their money's invested. They want their retirement to be

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Speaker 1: as robust as possible. This change in fiduciary duties of

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Speaker 1: the people who are investing their money could lead to

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Speaker 1: them getting lower returns. So I think this is a

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Speaker 1: totally legitimate concern that the Republicans have that and that

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Speaker 1: Biden's going to have a real tough decision. I think

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Speaker 1: on this veto there's going to be consequences for him

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Speaker 1: if he vetos this, because he's going to be perceived

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Speaker 1: in that action as potentially reducing the pensions of the

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Speaker 1: working class in this country. A lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of their pensions are funded through these privately invested investment funds.

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Speaker 1: That's what this labor rule is about. So it's not

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Speaker 1: just wo yes, woke is kind of a short, you know,

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Speaker 1: the bumper sticker description of the politics a little bit,

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Speaker 1: But this is also about people's pensions and making sure

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Speaker 1: there as robust as they can be if we if

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Speaker 1: this regulation, though, just to understand a little more about

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Speaker 1: it requires that this to be done in the best

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Speaker 1: financial interest of beneficiaries. This is where I keep bumping

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Speaker 1: up against the same question. Lester Munths and Genie Schanzano

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Speaker 1: with us here on the fastest Hour in politics, as

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Speaker 1: we turn next to geopolitics in a conversation with Peggy Collins.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch us

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Speaker 1: live weekdays at five Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, b

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, and the Bloomberg Business App. We're

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Speaker 1: listening on demand wherever you get your podcast. The Secretary

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Speaker 1: of State Antony Blinkin unexpectedly spent some time today with

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Speaker 1: Sergei Lavroth, the Foreign Minister from Russia at the G twenty.

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Speaker 1: They bump into each other so to speak along the sidelines,

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Speaker 1: and he had a message for the Foreign minister, of course,

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Speaker 1: that would be end the war in Ukraine. Officials at

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Speaker 1: the G twenty, though could not reach agreement on language

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Speaker 1: to describe the war, very similar to the outcome of

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Speaker 1: the Finance ministers meeting last weekend. If you recall, the

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Speaker 1: US did Warren companies at the G twenty to be

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Speaker 1: on guard for transactions that could help Russia evade Western sanctions,

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Speaker 1: especially if linked to China. The Secretary spoke more about

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Speaker 1: that this is a share concern and many other partners

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Speaker 1: have raised this and not just raised this with US,

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Speaker 1: but as my understanding, have raised it directly with China,

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Speaker 1: including here today in Delhi. The competition not conflict, as

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Speaker 1: the administration likes to put it with China on full

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Speaker 1: display today in a conversation here at Bloomberg with Secretary

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Speaker 1: Gina Romando, the Secretary of Commerce. Listen to the language

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Speaker 1: she chose. Now, remember, of course she's working on the

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Speaker 1: chips issue, specifically when it comes to economic competition keeping

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Speaker 1: certain technologies away from China. She talked about it with

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg's Washington bureau chief Peggy Collins. There have been times

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Speaker 1: in America's history of intense global competition with another superpower

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Speaker 1: who does not share our values. This is one of

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Speaker 1: those times. And in the same way that we invested

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Speaker 1: in our nuclear capacity, we invested in President Kennedy said

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Speaker 1: We're going to put a man on the moon in

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Speaker 1: the thick of the Cold War, this is a similar time.

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Speaker 1: And so in this intense competition with China, it's going

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Speaker 1: to evolve around a lot of it around technology, not

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Speaker 1: just who can make the best tanks and missiles, but

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Speaker 1: who's going to lead with artificial intelligence, you know, quantum etc.

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Speaker 1: Let's bring in Bloomberg's watching a bureau chief, Peggy Collins,

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Speaker 1: who led that conversation and some insights on this entire idea. Peggy,

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Speaker 1: welcome back, good to see you, Thank you, Joe, so

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Speaker 1: great to be here. Intense global competition. Secretary Romando is

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Speaker 1: comparing this moment with the nuclear arms race putting a

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Speaker 1: man on the moon in the Cold War. She said

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Speaker 1: in your conversation, the Pentagon and the State Department have

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Speaker 1: their worries, they have their angle right now, but they're

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Speaker 1: putting a man on the moon moment here for her

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Speaker 1: agency is what when you talk about technology, well, I

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Speaker 1: think it's semiconductor chips. Really it's about this unprecedented move

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Speaker 1: by the Biden administration, which Secretary of Commerce, Gina Romando,

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Speaker 1: is really running now in terms of plowing a lot

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Speaker 1: of money into the US to try to make us

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Speaker 1: able to produce more semiconductor chips in this country and

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Speaker 1: not depend on others. At the same time that China

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Speaker 1: is trying to do the same thing. You know, we

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Speaker 1: saw incredible supply shortages and all sorts of things connected

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Speaker 1: to chips, cars, other things, refrigerators during the pandemic. So

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Speaker 1: this is a big push to try to make sure

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Speaker 1: that we can build and make more in America, but

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Speaker 1: at the same time, they're tying it to national security risks.

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Speaker 1: So as you were just saying, Joe, you know, Secretary

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Speaker 1: Blincoln is talking about this, people on the Hill are

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Speaker 1: talking about this. There's this real intersection going on right

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Speaker 1: now between thinking about our economic growth and our national

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Speaker 1: security risks when it comes to China, and it's two layers.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you talked a lot about the Chip Act,

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Speaker 1: and she's there to help implement this. That's re shoring,

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Speaker 1: as they say, right or friend shoring, whatever we're going

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Speaker 1: to call that. But the administration has also been very

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Speaker 1: aggressive about keeping certain technologies out of China's hands. That's right,

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Speaker 1: And Secretary Raimondo made that distinction that you just made.

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Speaker 1: For long, long time, the US has been seen as

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Speaker 1: a leader in many things is connected to technology, but

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Speaker 1: in a lot of cases around the innovation and creation

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Speaker 1: of it, not necessarily in the making of this, you know,

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Speaker 1: the actual hardware and factories and things like that. So

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Speaker 1: in some ways, she is really putting out there that

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Speaker 1: we can have a manufacturing renaissance with a new type

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Speaker 1: of industrial policy. The question remains, like, how will this

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Speaker 1: unfold over the next several years? How will people make

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Speaker 1: sure that the money that goes out is accountable and spent. Well,

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Speaker 1: these are huge questions. There's a conversation in Washington as

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Speaker 1: well about secondary sanctions or maybe going after certain companies

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Speaker 1: that are working with Russia and so forth. We've seen

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration go after Chinese companies that design the

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Speaker 1: spy balloon, for instance. Are we're going to see a

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Speaker 1: lot more of that with regard to Ukraine or trade

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Speaker 1: law or whatever it is that the administration is concerned about. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've been doing a lot of reporting here

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Speaker 1: since the Ukraine Russia war around this idea of secondary sanctions,

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Speaker 1: but they are more difficult to enact than maybe we

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Speaker 1: would have thought of at this time last year. I

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Speaker 1: will say that Secretary Romando said in our interview that

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Speaker 1: they are looking broader than something at one company like TikTok. Right.

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Speaker 1: She's saying they are looking at more companies at that

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Speaker 1: intersection of national security and privacy in the technology space.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot of people on the Hill who

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Speaker 1: say we should just ban TikTok altogether. She was saying

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Speaker 1: she feels like maybe a ban on one single company

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Speaker 1: is not the way to go, but that they're working

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Speaker 1: with legislators on the Hill to figure out a way

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Speaker 1: to protect our national security and also allow for economic growth.

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Speaker 1: This doesn't sound like two countries moving closer together. What

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Speaker 1: does this look like in a couple of years, if

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Speaker 1: this is a cold war right now, what is our

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Speaker 1: economic relationship? Well, it's a great question, Joe, and I

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Speaker 1: think there's a question of whether or not this is

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Speaker 1: a race against time for both China and the US.

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Speaker 1: While Taiwan controls so much of the semiconductor market to

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Speaker 1: basically build up their own capabilities before we do potentially

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Speaker 1: have an even more catastrophic, potentially issue come to us.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, Secretary of Commerce Ramando is saying,

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Speaker 1: but we're not calling for a decoupling of the two economies.

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Speaker 1: So the question is, but wait, if you ratchet up

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Speaker 1: the heat and ratchet up the heat, and ratchet up

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Speaker 1: the heat, then is there an ability to keep trading

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Speaker 1: some goods? I'm not sure. Well, we're developing quite a

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Speaker 1: compartmentalized relationship, I guess with China, aren't we. When you

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Speaker 1: have Anthony B. Lincoln on TV or at the G

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Speaker 1: twenty saying, you know, don't you dare send weapons to Russia,

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Speaker 1: it will be a new level of escalation. You've got

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden talking about competition versus conflict. You've got Secretary

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Speaker 1: Romando hopefully talking about some sort of future of trade

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Speaker 1: between the two companies, but with new restrictions put on it.

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Speaker 1: How can you have all of these happening at the

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Speaker 1: same time and have a productive relationship. Well, one of

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Speaker 1: the things I was just thinking when you ask that question, Joe,

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Speaker 1: is how can you have all these things going on

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Speaker 1: without the potential for something to go wrong? Okay, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean. So I mean you certainly. I

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Speaker 1: think there's a lot of people with a lot of

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Speaker 1: optimism that they can almost have two rails of like

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Speaker 1: some open dialogue, but then also kind of, you know,

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Speaker 1: turn off some of the points where we feel it's

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Speaker 1: at the intersection of our economy and national security. But

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Speaker 1: the more that that happens, and the more that we

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Speaker 1: ask allies to choose sides or this idea of friend shoring,

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Speaker 1: maybe not even some of our traditional allies, but countries

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Speaker 1: that were reaching out to more because of their natural resources,

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Speaker 1: and we're asking people to pick more sides, the potential

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Speaker 1: for something I think to really be ratcheted up quickly

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Speaker 1: and unexpectedly goes higher. It's a very tricky balancing act,

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Speaker 1: isn't it right? I think I think it is, and

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Speaker 1: I think, just going back to what I said about resources,

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Speaker 1: that's going to be like another area we hear from

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Speaker 1: a lot of people we talk to that this whole

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Speaker 1: idea of critical minerals is the next you know, but

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Speaker 1: not necessarily the next thing that they're going to come

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Speaker 1: out with a plan around, but the next issue that

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Speaker 1: people are really focusing on where there could be a

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Speaker 1: crossroads because of the lack of resources or who owns

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Speaker 1: it and who's willing to trade with who fascinating. This

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Speaker 1: is why it's important for you to go check out

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Speaker 1: Peggy's interview with Secretary Gina Romando. Go to the terminal

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Speaker 1: search Romando look at it on the website as well.

431
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: Peggy Collins, great to see you in the studio. Let's

432
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 1: reassemble our panel for their thoughts. There's a lot to

433
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: cover here with Jennie Chanzano, Democratic analyst, Bloomberg Politics contributor,

434
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 1: and Republican analysts Lester Months in principle at government relations.

435
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: From me, who's former staff director on the Senate Foreign

436
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 1: Relations Committee and Leicester. I just want to begin with

437
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: the matter that we were discussing with Peggy that we

438
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 1: heard Secretary Romando way In on here, because it may

439
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: well end up being the front lines of this economic

440
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: cold war, if we can call it that, and I

441
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: know that that's its own debate, but keeping technology from

442
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: China could be the most powerful weapon we have here

443
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: in the US. Is that fair to say? Yeah, I

444
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 1: think that's a hugely important part of the current competition

445
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: with China. It's not a full economic decoupling, of course,

446
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: that would be probably catastrophic economically for both countries, but

447
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: it's a strategic decoupling, and I think the Biden administration,

448
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: to its credit, is trying to do this in as

449
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: smart a way as possible and pick the sectors technological

450
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: sectors where that do have some implications for national security

451
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: and defense and target those and not do these really

452
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 1: broad based sanctions which I think would be counterproductive, but

453
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: do very strategically selected areas. And Secretary Ramundo mentioned, you know,

454
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence and quantum computing and those kinds of things.

455
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: Big data is directly related to all of this, is

456
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: that is that is a smart approach. I think there's

457
00:26:53,880 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: there's very broad bipartisan support for that kind of strategic decoupling. Geenie,

458
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: do we start bumping into our own compartmentalization at some

459
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: point here? Though? Is it possible to have that kind

460
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 1: of relationship for the long term with China? We're like, hey,

461
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 1: we really need you. We got it. We need you

462
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: to stock up the Walmart shelves and do so many

463
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: other things that we relying you for, but you're not

464
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 1: allowed to have this stuff that you really want. At

465
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: some point, as Peggy indicated that that balancing act could

466
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: fall apart, Yeah, and I thought Peggy said it so beautifully.

467
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: I mean, how long can you keep this up? And

468
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: the reality is we have six hundred and ninety billion

469
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: dollars in trade, We are deeply economically integrated with China,

470
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: and yet we are at extreme loggerheads. And as you know,

471
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: listening to Peggy talk about her conversation listening to the

472
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: House China Select Committee, and Lester is right, it's a

473
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: bipartisan approach. You know. The idea that there was going

474
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: to be some kind of you know, even a cool

475
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: war now seems to have heated up to this almost

476
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: fever like pitch, much of it having to do with

477
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: this fight over microchips, and you know how that's going

478
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: to be resolved. They are indispensable to our military security

479
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: and everything else in our lives, so it's understandable. But

480
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: to your point, how long can you keep that up

481
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: is a big question. It involves not just US, but Taiwan,

482
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: South Korea, Japan, Netherlands. The list goes on and on,

483
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: and at some point we may push China too far,

484
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: and I think that is a big concern. I have

485
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: to say personally, I am concerned by the level of

486
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: you know, language that we're hearing in to the extent

487
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: from Congress in some cases, you know that we are

488
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: in a war with China. That's dangerous when we're this

489
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: reliant on them as well. The German Chancellor Olof Schultz

490
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: will be visiting the White House as you know Leicester,

491
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: and a senior US official has been briefing reporters on

492
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: the upcoming visit. They will tend to give us a

493
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: little bit of a top line overview, and the headlines

494
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: on the terminal pretty clear. Briefing reporters on upcoming Schultz visit.

495
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: Biden Schultz to coordinate on Ukraine. Biden Schultz expected to

496
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: discuss concerns about China. All roads lead to China, Lester

497
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: even through Kiev. How is its involvement in Ukraine going

498
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: to determine the future of our relationship? Well, I think

499
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: this is this is something that the administration was considering.

500
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: Making a big red line for China, you know, overt

501
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: military support, offensive capability, ammunition, artillery, drones for Russia would

502
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: be it would be a big red line in terms

503
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: of Chinese behavior. The administration kind of launched that last week.

504
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: They pulled it back a little bit in subsequent days,

505
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: but that's that's clearly a concern, and I think the

506
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: I think the Biden administration is going to do everything

507
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: that can diplomatically to really strongly discourage China collaborating directly

508
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: with the Russians. They've decided not to do that in

509
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: public as much. I think this is going to be

510
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: a little bit more behind the scenes, So they're probably

511
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: looking for shoals to help them with that. But this

512
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: is this is clearly going to be a big issue

513
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: for the rest of the year. The administration is increasingly

514
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: making the Ukraine conflict. It's number one national security priorities.

515
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: So all all decision making is going to be steamed

516
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: through that lens. And so that's going to impact the

517
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: China relationship as well, which will give Republicans more leverage

518
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: to argue against continued funding. Genie, is that the next

519
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: leg in the story? Yeah, ironically, And they are using

520
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: the argument that we need to confront China, so we

521
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: can't be spending all of our resources helping Ukraine. And

522
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: you know the other part of this is that one

523
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: of the big things that Russia wants from China is semiconductors.

524
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: They cannot produce them locally, So that's a great you

525
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: bring this up. So where's the line then, Genie, they say,

526
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: no weapons. Semiconductors we've already established here are as powerful

527
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: as weapons. Would that be any different? Yeah, and that

528
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: is them, that is the question, right, And they said

529
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: no lethal support. And when pressed Anthony Blincoln, you know,

530
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: we heard over and over again members of the administration

531
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: unwilling to at least say publicly what they meant by

532
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: lethal support, not to mention what the evidence was that

533
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: it was being considered, but what that meant is unclear.

534
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: But you know today semiconductors may well be defined I

535
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: would assume as lethal support, because it's something in addition

536
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: to drones and tanks and cruise missiles that Russia desperately needs.

537
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: And so you know, drones they've gotten from Iran, they

538
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: would like them from Russia. Semiconductors they can't produce. They

539
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: need them, sorry China, they need them from China. That's

540
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: military support. Whether we define it as lethal or not sure,

541
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: I think the Administration and NATO need to be clear on,

542
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: at least in their own minds. I do want to

543
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: be clear as well that there are a lot of Republicans,

544
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: in fact the majority probably that support funding the war

545
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. There are also progressive Democrats who do not,

546
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: But that very vocal group of Republicans, mainly in the

547
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: House Leicester getting louder. Does that cry get even louder

548
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: because we're folding China into the story, then, I don't think. So.

549
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: There is there is this You're right, there is this

550
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: kind of national security argument that in the marshaling of

551
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: our resources and priorities, we really ought to focus on

552
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: the near peer competitor, which is China. That means Russia

553
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: Ukraine comes second most Republicans, as you pointed out, actually

554
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: think you have to think of this holistically. There's if

555
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: the US is going to be the global leader as

556
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: we should be, you can't just neglect the Ukraine issue.

557
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell, no less person than Mitch McConnell specifically address

558
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: this issue in Munich a few days ago in the

559
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: public speech. So this is but it's very much foreign

560
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: policy debate. It's a little bit of a political debate. Yes,

561
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: for some reason, we tend to pay attention to these

562
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: crazy voices in the Republican Party who want to cut

563
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: off the funding when I would say seventy or eighty

564
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: percent are in favor of continuing it. Lester Munson on

565
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: our panel today along with Jeanie Schanzano, these conversations really

566
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: remind us that none of these stories can exist in

567
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: a vacuum. Everything we talk about here affects something else

568
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: that we're also talking about here, and that's certainly the

569
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,239
Speaker 1: way of the world right now. In the way of

570
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: the world in Washington. You're listening to the Bloomberg sound

571
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: On podcast. Catch the program live weekdays at five pm

572
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: Easter on Bloomberg Radio, the tune in app Bloomberg dot

573
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: Com and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen

574
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 1: live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station.

575
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg eleven thirty and time for cepack.

576
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: It is underway this week in Washington, you know, the

577
00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: Conservative Political Action Conference. More has been made about the

578
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: people deciding not to attend than those who are attending,

579
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 1: like Senator Rick Scott, who helped get the ball rolling today.

580
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: So welcome to America in the year twenty twenty three,

581
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: where we are destroying the country we love. That's what's

582
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: happening right here in America. We are destroying the country

583
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: we love. Now, to be clear, it's not you, it's

584
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 1: not me. We're not destroying our country. It's a President

585
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: of the United States who's destroying our country. It's a

586
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: US Senate that is destroying our country. It's the news medium,

587
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: it's a Democrat Party, academia, Hollywood, Wall Street, and many

588
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: of our big corporations. Wait, that leaves everything but the

589
00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: Republican Party. It wasn't also dour, not so far. Senator Kennedy,

590
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 1: of course, keeping things on the up and up. John

591
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: Kennedy of Louisia wherever I can find now see exactly,

592
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: So I say this gently. The Boden administration shucks. Okay,

593
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: getting to the point, we reassemble our panel here with

594
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: Sepack the backdrop, Lester Munson, and Jeanie Chanzino Leicester. As

595
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 1: I mentioned, a lot has been said about the people

596
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: who are not there. We know that Donald Trump is

597
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: the headliner, and this is the organization, and this event

598
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: is turning into a bit of a Trump convention. Ronda

599
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: Santis will not be there. Kevin McCarthy will not be there.

600
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: I don't think any chairs significant chairs from Capitol Hill

601
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 1: will be there. Mike Pence is not attending. Mitch McConnell

602
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: is not attending. So what is SPACK becoming. Well, it

603
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 1: sounds like they're, you know, doing a good job of

604
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: producing some colorful rhetoric and apocalyptic visions more than I'm

605
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: not sure how much that's going to sell to voters.

606
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: Probably not much, which is which is probably why we're

607
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of these presidential candidates take a flyer

608
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: on it. Donald Trump does, for whatever his other qualities,

609
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 1: um does do a good job of reaching out to

610
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: kind of the crazy fringe base and making sure they

611
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: know he's with them, so I'm not surprised that he's there.

612
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: C Pack has always been a little bit like the

613
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: Barstein in Star Wars to me, with a lot of

614
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: strange characters. Yeah, dressed oddly and and that kind of

615
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: thing is strange music. Um well, there was always a

616
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: festive kind of element to Cepack, Right, It's just become

617
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 1: a little bit less inclusive. Maybe it is. Is it

618
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: just for a specific slice of the Republican Party your point,

619
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 1: It does seem that way, And um, and I think

620
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 1: this and I think this vision of you know, of

621
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:09,240
Speaker 1: Democrats destroying America is not something a lot of clearly

622
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: a lot of other Republicans want to be associated with.

623
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: It could be some of the other issues that seepack

624
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: some of its leadership has struggled with recently. I mean

625
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 1: it's been in the news a little bit, but I

626
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: but I think Sepa it's a it's a fringe element.

627
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: I think it's not it's not the place where you're

628
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 1: going to see the mainstream of the Republican Party or

629
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: the conservative movement generally speaking. That hasn't been that way

630
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,720
Speaker 1: for a while. This is this is some fringe folks

631
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: who are are going to get some headlines and maybe

632
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: some cliques on their social media because of it. Well,

633
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: I guess case in point when you talk establishment, the

634
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: chair of the Republican National Committee is not attending either.

635
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: Rona McDaniel on the other hand, Marjorie Taylor Green there,

636
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: Matt Gates, Ted Cruz All speaking to the crowd. The

637
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: one number of leadership is at least aponic. Who's going

638
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,479
Speaker 1: to make an appearancer Jim Jordan uh was talking today.

639
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,720
Speaker 1: I guess I can check myself on the on the chairs.

640
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 1: Also a representative Scott Perry speaking today, Genie, I don't

641
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: know if he was talking about you here. Well, this

642
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: is his remark talking about the challenge to personal sovereignty

643
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 1: that Democrats are making. Our personal sovereignty is what this

644
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: nation was built on, and it's the foundation. It is

645
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: under assault by every single facet of the government. And

646
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: as Ralph has said, we are going to create a firestorm. Look,

647
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: if it's up to me, there's going to be a firestorm.

648
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: These leftists, these Marxists that had prevailed upon the American

649
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,720
Speaker 1: people and used the awesome power of the federal government

650
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 1: to cow us into into fear in our homes, they've

651
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: got to be put on notice. They've got to be

652
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: quaking in fear. They've got to be worried. They've got

653
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: to be losing weight because they're not eating because they're

654
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: worried that they're going to end up going to jail. Wow,

655
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: who's going to jail? Genie? I am quaking. I'm hoping

656
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to lose weight. This is all good. I

657
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 1: didn't know how powerful I actually was, and I'm still

658
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: trying to figure out. Yeah, this is great. And you

659
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,760
Speaker 1: know Lester talking about the Star Wars bar Java, the Huts,

660
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: Throne Room. I don't know which one it was, but

661
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: you know, I think what we're seeing with cepac to

662
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 1: your original question is something that was powerful and did

663
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 1: have an enormous voice and a play in choosing the

664
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: Republican nominee, or at least have a voice in that

665
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: at one point has now becomes increasingly, you know, the

666
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: home of this mega extremism, and that's what we're hearing there.

667
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: That's not to say everybody there, but a good number

668
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: of them. And that's why we're seeing people stay away

669
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: because they know that in twenty twenty, Republicans lost the

670
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: White House because of this and in twenty twenty two

671
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: they missed the mark. They should have done much better

672
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: than they did, and they didn't because of a lot

673
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: of this extremist So I think, you know, we see

674
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: that with the donor class, for instance. I do think

675
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: there's a question to whether it resonates with primary vote.

676
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 1: You no primary voters, but we're seeing it with the

677
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: donor class, the Cookes and others who are saying, listen,

678
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: we've got to turn the page on this. We've got

679
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: to choose people who are electable. And that's why we're

680
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: seeing DeSantis and others say, come to me, I will

681
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: talk to you about moving forward. But I'm not going

682
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: to look back and be, you know, a sort of

683
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: caught in this magat environment. But I think this is

684
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: a big test for Donald Trump. If he does poorly

685
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: in this straw pole, or if he doesn't seem to

686
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: have the sway with the group that he should, it's

687
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: a sign he's in real trouble and his grip on

688
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 1: this part of the party is failing, which would be

689
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: a bad sign for him, although he still is, you know,

690
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 1: number one in the polls. That's clear. I can remember

691
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: Mitt Romney withdrawing from the presidential race. I get that

692
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: that would have been two thousand and eight, Lester. He

693
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: did it at Sepack. Some people were sobbing. That was

694
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: a major moment in the campaign. When you consider the

695
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: change in rhetoric and direction of the Republican Party since then,

696
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: is this enough of a base to help Donald Trump? Yeah?

697
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: I think looking back to two thousand and eight, that's

698
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,760
Speaker 1: when Mitt Romney was kind of the conservative standard bearer

699
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: against the more means you know, the more kind of

700
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,479
Speaker 1: chamber of commerce type of um of John McKain. So, yeah,

701
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: the party has definitely changed. You know, We've seen anyone

702
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: who's conservative in the Democratic Party is now a Republican.

703
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 1: Anyone who was moderate or liberal in the Democrat is

704
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 1: now or any moderates or liberals Republican parties now a Democrat. Yeah.

705
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: Like it really kind of pulled apart to the to

706
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 1: everyone's gone to their corners and um, and this is

707
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: the most cornered part now at Sepack of the right.

708
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: And I think it's more, you know, honestly, I think

709
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 1: it's more entertainment value and a platform for folks who

710
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: who don't really have necessarily a policy agenda. They're there

711
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 1: to be provocative and say thinks they get people ginned up,

712
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: and we'll get them some clicks and some views. So

713
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: this is much more performative than it is any kind

714
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: of policy debate that's going on. Sept Leicester and Jeannie

715
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 1: with some final thoughts coming up, fascinating insights. You're listening

716
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: to The Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch the program live

717
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: weekdays at five pm Easter on Bloomberg Radio, the tune

718
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App.

719
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

720
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven

721
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: thirty and So the investigation begins. The House Ethics Committee

722
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: opening an investigation into not just one of a series

723
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 1: of alleged unlawful acts by Yes, George Santos, who tweets,

724
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: or at least his office tweets. George Santos is fully cooperating.

725
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 1: There will be no further comment made at this time,

726
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 1: not that there's been a lot of comment to begin. Yes,

727
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: I have nothing to hire, nothing to hide. That was

728
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: back on the thirty first of January. He doesn't do

729
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: the whole run down the hallway of the reporters quite

730
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: as often anymore. But this, of course is the Republican

731
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: from New York who lied about his resume and well

732
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: most of his life. Now, this is far reaching stuff.

733
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 1: An investigative panel, I believe it's ten members, a ten

734
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 1: member committee to be chaired by Republican David Joyce of Ohio.

735
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 1: We'll look into a range of allegations I read on

736
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 1: the terminal, including whether Santos engaged in sexual misconduct involving

737
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 1: an individual seeking employment in his congressional office, so this

738
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: is since he got elected. The panel will also determine

739
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 1: if he engaged an unlawful activity with respect to his

740
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: congressional campaign, he failed to properly disclose required information on

741
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: statements filed in the House, and whether it's Santos violated

742
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: federal conflict of interest laws in connection with his role

743
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: in a firm providing fiduciary services. Thoughts from the panel

744
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: Lester months At and Jeanie Schanzano Here, Jeannie, we have

745
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 1: talked a lot about George Santos over the last couple

746
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,919
Speaker 1: of months. Seems to be almost enjoying himself lately. Now

747
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: it feels like it's getting a little more serious or

748
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: is this just another show for the media. It is

749
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: another nail in the coffin for George Santos. I have

750
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 1: to say I am personally a little sad. Just yesterday

751
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: he introduced a salt bill. You know, I'm a big

752
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: proponent of that, but looks like it wasn't going to

753
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: go anywhere anyway. So that's okay. But you know, this is,

754
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 1: you know, on top of what the US Attorney's Office,

755
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: the Federal Election Commission, York Attorney General, Nassau County sixty

756
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: six percent of his constituents wanting him out. The reality here, though,

757
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: is that the ethics in the House will take a

758
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: long long time, and they may even pause the investigation

759
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: while these other investigations are under course. So this isn't

760
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 1: going to be fast. There's going to be a lot

761
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 1: more George Santos to go around, I think, for many

762
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 1: months to come. And that's the way Kevin McCarthy wants it.

763
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: Last thing he wants is George Santos out and Kathy

764
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: Hocle calling for a special election that Republicans are likely

765
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: to lose out there, well, of course, Lester. We you know,

766
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: also if you're centured by the Ethics Committee. That doesn't

767
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: mean you're getting fired. We knew. We do need to

768
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: remind our listeners of that. Yeah. I think it takes

769
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: a two thirds vote of the whole House to eject

770
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: someone from the body, but they can do it. And

771
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 1: it sounds to me like Kevin McCarthy is has his

772
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: mind made up that if the Committee finds Santos has

773
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: broken the law, that they will do that. And I

774
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: disagree with a genie a little bit here. I think

775
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: I think it behooves House Republican leadership to move this

776
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 1: as quickly as possible, come to the logical conclusion here,

777
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 1: and do what you need to do sooner rather than later,

778
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 1: and move on to the next thing, because none of

779
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 1: us does the House Republicans any good in the long run. Well,

780
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 1: the vote does in the meantime, though, doesn't it. I mean,

781
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 1: if Kevin McCarthy says goodbye to George Santos, that makes

782
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: the math ever more difficulty. The math is already difficult.

783
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: He's already got is pretty thin margin. This will maybe

784
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: make it slightly thinner. Yeah, but at the end of

785
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 1: the day, he's going to be doing most of, certainly

786
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: all the spending stuff will be on partisan lines for

787
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 1: a while, so he's still got a three or four

788
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: a vote margin. I'd go ahead and get rid of

789
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: the headache and then try and fix the math later.

790
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: You're gonna miss the jokes though, Genie, Hey, Willy, he

791
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: wanted to pull the band aid, he would have. Politically,

792
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: it's not in his interest, and plus we want him

793
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: to stay. He's been good fodder for him. Well, I

794
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: mean the Dunkin Donuts. That's its own thing, right, Jeanie

795
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 1: Schanzano one leaster months and I thank you a great conversation.

796
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 1: Are they still putting donuts out in front of his office?

797
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: We should go steak out A sound on steakout. I'll

798
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: meet you back here tomorrow. Only one place, of course,

799
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: this is Bloomberg