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Speaker 1: Welcome to Securing America with me, Frank Afte, the program

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Speaker 1: that's a kind of owner's manual for protecting the country

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Speaker 1: we love against all enemies foreign and domestic, to the

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Speaker 1: glory of God and his kingdom. We're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about a country that I believe in dangers the

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Speaker 1: country we love profoundly, and it seems more and more

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Speaker 1: so by the day. And we're going to be talking

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Speaker 1: with a man I regard as one of the pre

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Speaker 1: eminent experts in the country, if not in the world,

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Speaker 1: on the Chinese Communist Party, what it's up to, and

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Speaker 1: what it means for all of us. His name is

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Speaker 1: Gordon Change introduced him properly in a moment. But let

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Speaker 1: me set the stage for this conversation by talking about

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Speaker 1: something that is very much top of my mind in

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Speaker 1: connection with the Chinese threat. For decades, we've been told

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Speaker 1: Communist China is justin economic competitor. We were blithely assured

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Speaker 1: that if we engaged with and enriched the PRC by

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Speaker 1: transferring there much of our manufacturing capability, supply chains, and

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Speaker 1: investment dollars, it would become more like us. Arguably, in

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Speaker 1: the history of the world, there's never been a more

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Speaker 1: colossal strategic mistake. We've transformed communist China, all right, and

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Speaker 1: now it's a powerful, mortal enemy upon whom we are

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Speaker 1: critically dependent, even though the CP's stated goal is to

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Speaker 1: destroy this country. That's the context in which we must

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Speaker 1: consider the introduction this week of China's Deep Seek, a

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Speaker 1: free artificial intelligence model with the potential to engage and

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Speaker 1: addict millions of Americans even as we struggle to break

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Speaker 1: TikTok's grip on half our population. Even in its first

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Speaker 1: week on the market, Deep six Deep Seek excuse me

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Speaker 1: has undermined our own AI industry. If China's just an

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Speaker 1: economic competitor, no, no worries, Right. We've witnessed this predatory

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Speaker 1: pattern of stealing our intellectual property and using it to

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Speaker 1: hollow out our businesses for years. But if this and

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Speaker 1: other Chinese AI models now en route to our markets

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Speaker 1: are allowed to metastasize further, the CCP will have even

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Speaker 1: more of our personal data, be better positioned to propagandize

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Speaker 1: and influence US, and weaponize such capabilities to defeat America.

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Speaker 1: Today's Committee on the Present Danger China webinar explores such

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Speaker 1: threats and what we must do about them. Check it

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Speaker 1: out at Present Danger China dot org. Those are my thoughts.

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Speaker 1: For more of them, follow me at Frank Gaffney on

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Speaker 1: x and at Securing America. Do substack dot com, and

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Speaker 1: please consider supporting the work of our new Institute for

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Speaker 1: the American Future at us Future dot org. Let's get

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Speaker 1: the thoughts of our distinguished guest, Gordon Chang. You can

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Speaker 1: follow him as I do at Gordon g Chang on Twitter.

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Speaker 1: You can also observe and take aboard his extraordinary products

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Speaker 1: in places like the Gatestone Institute and Newsweek, and his

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Speaker 1: newest book, plam Read China's Project to Defeat America. Gordon

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Speaker 1: is a dear friend as well as a valued contributor

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Speaker 1: to this program, and we're always grateful to for taking

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Speaker 1: some time to catch us up on his thoughts and

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Speaker 1: his prescriptions about the Chinese Communist Party. Welcome back, Gordon,

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us again.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Frank.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to get your take on what I've just said. Gordon.

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Speaker 1: I think you have taught me most of what I

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Speaker 1: know about the folly of our engagement strategy with the

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Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party. This seems less deep six. I call

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Speaker 1: it deep six. It's actually deep seat. The project is

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Speaker 1: of a piece with some of the worst of those follies.

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Speaker 1: What are your thoughts are?

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Speaker 2: My friends call it deep sneak. Really, what we're talking

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Speaker 2: about is a large language model that is I think.

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Speaker 1: Run by the Communist Party.

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Speaker 2: Deep Seek is a private company. It was formed in

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Speaker 2: July twenty twenty three, and it's done something which is

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Speaker 2: just too fantastical for words. It created the world's best

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Speaker 2: AI and we know that because it's open source, so

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Speaker 2: there's very little doubt about that. But they said they

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Speaker 2: did it in a very short time frame. After all,

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Speaker 2: the company is, you know, less than two years old. Also,

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Speaker 2: they you know, they are reporting that they did this

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Speaker 2: for six million dollars. Well, open ai has stated and

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Speaker 2: other people have confirmed that what deep seek has done

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Speaker 2: is actually steal open AI's chat GPT GPT four to

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Speaker 2: be specific. And they did it by what's called distilling,

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Speaker 2: which is to use one large language model to teach another,

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Speaker 2: and that is a violation of the terms of service

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Speaker 2: of open ai. So really this is intellectual property theft.

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Speaker 2: But it shows you what China is willing to do.

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Speaker 2: What is important about this is because this is AI,

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Speaker 2: it gathers so much information, more than TikTok, for instance,

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Speaker 2: and because it's in Communist China, they have put restraints

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Speaker 2: on it, so it propagates the Communist Party's narrative. So

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Speaker 2: you know, all sorts of answers come out of this

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Speaker 2: that are inimicable to freedom and to the United States.

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Speaker 2: That is going to be a critical problem going forward.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, it is the most downloaded app

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Speaker 2: everywhere these days because it is free and it's basically

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Speaker 2: the best on the market.

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Speaker 1: So what you've just described, Gordon, is I guess the

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Speaker 1: trojan horse being wheeled into this country and other nations

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Speaker 1: around the world with the express purpose, obviously of interacting

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Speaker 1: with individual consumers. And it's in the nature of artificial

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Speaker 1: intelligence that that develops a certain intimacy of knowledge about

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Speaker 1: those individuals, as well as an opportunity to insert ideas

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Speaker 1: or information or well propaganda into the hands of people,

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Speaker 1: the heads of people wide. What could possibly go wrong

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Speaker 1: with all that.

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Speaker 2: What could possibly go wrong is that you have the

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Speaker 2: Communist Party with the introduction of Deep Seeks R one model,

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Speaker 2: which was January twenty by the way, a date that

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Speaker 2: we changed management in the United States, there's been a

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Speaker 2: blitz of Communist Party propaganda over the futility of American sanctions.

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Speaker 2: So the idea here is that Deep Seek's great supposedly

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Speaker 2: built around the American sanctions and so therefore trying to

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Speaker 2: convince the United States to give up all of those

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Speaker 2: measures that in fact restrict China's development of AI. So

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Speaker 2: all of this is much too convenient for me, and

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Speaker 2: I think that essentially, you know, there are a number

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Speaker 2: of things. It's possible that this was developed by a

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Speaker 2: private company, but it's more likely that this was a

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Speaker 2: long term project of the China New Central Government or

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Speaker 2: Communist Party that they just delivered to Deep See. I

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Speaker 2: don't know that to be the case, but I think

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Speaker 2: we should think about the possibility of that. But in

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Speaker 2: any event, the Communist Party is using the introduction of

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Speaker 2: the R one model to really just go at the

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Speaker 2: US and try to get us to drop our defenses.

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Speaker 1: And and one of those is, in addition to efforts

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Speaker 1: to restrict software and obviously distilling opportunities for the Chinese,

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Speaker 1: we've made a push to try to prevent them from

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Speaker 1: having access to advanced well videot thing and you know,

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Speaker 1: these these other instruments that the video has been producing

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Speaker 1: now for some time. Is your theory of the case

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Speaker 1: that this is meant to suggest that those won't work either,

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Speaker 1: and therefore they should be dispensed with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is I mentioned. It's a Communist Party blitz

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Speaker 2: on this issue, and it was I think built around

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Speaker 2: the introduction of deep seeks R one model. Of course

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Speaker 2: I can't prove that, but the two things occurred at

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Speaker 2: the same time, and in the Communist Party's very structured system,

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Speaker 2: there are fewer coincidences in China than they are anywhere else.

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Speaker 1: It is a famous line of Communists that it's no accident,

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Speaker 1: Comrade right, I think, especially the timing of this rolling

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Speaker 1: out on the twentieth of January is no accident. Gordon

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Speaker 1: who thought, we'll be right back with much more with

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Speaker 1: the great Gordon Chang following at Gordon g Chang, as

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Speaker 1: I do, stay tuned. We're back and we are visiting

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Speaker 1: with Gordon Chang. One of our duty experts, revered, let

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Speaker 1: me just say duty experts on the Chinese Communist Party,

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Speaker 1: what it's up to, what it has been doing, what

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Speaker 1: it's capable of doing next, and what we had best

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Speaker 1: be thinking and doing about it, and Gordon, in connection

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Speaker 1: with all of that, and really keying off of what

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Speaker 1: you've just said about deep seek, I wanted to get

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Speaker 1: your latest thinking about what's going on with this other

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Speaker 1: trojan horse all very much inside our wire that would

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Speaker 1: be TikTok. By some estimates, one hundred and seventy three

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Speaker 1: million Americans are not only users of this platform, they

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Speaker 1: are addicted to it by design. There's been a lot

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Speaker 1: of thrashing and official Washington about what to do about

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Speaker 1: that fact. Talk us through, if you would, why this

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Speaker 1: is a very serious problem, and then we'll talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about what Congress and well all three branches

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Speaker 1: of the US government have decided to do about it,

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Speaker 1: and then get to what Donald Trump is up to.

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Speaker 2: TikTok poses really two grave threats to the United States.

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Speaker 2: First of all, it steals data. It has violated every

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Speaker 2: pledge that it's made to the United States about the

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Speaker 2: security of data. And it's also you know, every time,

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Speaker 2: it's violated laws of the United States and not just

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Speaker 2: laws on data protection but others. So it is hoovering

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Speaker 2: up enormous amounts of information. Now President Trump, from the

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Speaker 2: Oval Office said well, look, it's only the information about

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Speaker 2: kids and trying to minimize what was going on. Well,

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Speaker 2: I think it's a fact that every American president, every

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court justice, every member of Congress is once in

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Speaker 2: time been a kid. And the problem here is that

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Speaker 2: the information that TikTok is gathering can be used to

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Speaker 2: first of all find out a lot about the views

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Speaker 2: and the attitudes of these individuals who will be leaders,

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Speaker 2: but also for blackmail in some cases. So this is

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Speaker 2: a part of a broad based effort, I think, to

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Speaker 2: just take over the United States. The second grave threat

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Speaker 2: is the curation algorithm, which propagates China's narratives. So for instance,

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Speaker 2: right after Russia's invasion of Ukraine, we were getting Russian

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Speaker 2: disinformation about the war. But it's also it promotes illicit

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Speaker 2: drug use, self harm. It's been used to foment violence

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Speaker 2: on American streets. It is meant to destroy the court

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Speaker 2: of American society. So one hundred and seventy million Americans

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Speaker 2: have this app on their phone. So this is no

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Speaker 2: small threat to the United States.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. Gordon, and just back on point one,

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Speaker 1: the information aggregation piece, even if it's just a kid's

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Speaker 1: cell phone, and even if you want to say, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's no harm in having the Chinese know everything about

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Speaker 1: that child. The ability that TikTok has inherent in the

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Speaker 1: platform to turn on that child's camera and microphone on

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Speaker 1: their phone at will, without permission or knowledge of anybody

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Speaker 1: in the surrounding area means that they're able to hoover

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Speaker 1: up an awful lot more data that could be very

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Speaker 1: problematic for parents or other family members. What have you.

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Speaker 1: On your second point, Gordon, and I think it's just

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Speaker 1: hard to overstate the significance of this, and it goes

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Speaker 1: back to what we're just talking about. It happening perhaps

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Speaker 1: on an even more horrific scale with Deep Seek or

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Speaker 1: other AI platforms which we're told in the works for

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Speaker 1: us from China, and that is this ability to absolutely

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Speaker 1: intravenously feed their narratives, their line, their agenda into the

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Speaker 1: heads of people who have no idea that it's even

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Speaker 1: being taken aboard, so preliminally or otherwise, Again the rhetorical question,

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Speaker 1: what could go wrong with that? We saw it going wrong,

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Speaker 1: as you've indicated on a couple of occasions, plus not

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Speaker 1: least in these well in some cases, demonstrations, in other

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Speaker 1: cases riots really on college campuses in support of the

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Speaker 1: Chinese Communist parties friends in Hamas.

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Speaker 2: Yes, if we want to know why there's been such

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Speaker 2: a fast spread of virulent anti Semitism in America over

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Speaker 2: the last couple of years, you can thank TikTok for that. Now,

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Speaker 2: of course there are other reasons, but TikTok has mightily

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Speaker 2: contributed to that. And this is the Communist Party's view.

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Speaker 2: That is, in the United States. China's curation algorithms in

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Speaker 2: TikTok and some newer apps are the most advanced in

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Speaker 2: the world. They're very effective. They know what your kid

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Speaker 2: wants to see, they know what your kid doesn't want

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Speaker 2: to see. They deliver this information and they're very good

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Speaker 2: at it. And they've got to remember that. In the

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Speaker 2: first Trump term, just at the end, when Trump was

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Speaker 2: trying to force a sale of TikTok to an American party,

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Speaker 2: that deals cratered, not over money, which is where most

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Speaker 2: deals fail. But it failed over the control of the

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Speaker 2: curation algorithm. China wasn't willing to give it up. Now,

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Speaker 2: China has used that algorithm, as I mentioned, to for

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Speaker 2: men violence on American streets, federal crime, active war. We

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Speaker 2: have the right to not only expropriate it, which we

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Speaker 2: can axpropriate any foreign asset in the US, we have

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Speaker 2: a right to confiscate it, in other words, take it

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Speaker 2: without compensation. So when President Trump says we need China's

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Speaker 2: approval for a sale, I don't think so. I think

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Speaker 2: that we apply American law, we start defending our country,

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Speaker 2: and we get serious about China.

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Speaker 1: It's part of the larger urgent need to get serious

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Speaker 1: about China. And that's that's what I was trying to

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Speaker 1: get at at the beginning of my commentary Gordon, again,

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Speaker 1: informed by so much that I've learned from you. I

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Speaker 1: mean this notion that it's just about economics, that if

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Speaker 1: we just you know, compete with them and treat them

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Speaker 1: as economic competitors, that you know, will make them more

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Speaker 1: like us, or we'll get along in other ways. It

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Speaker 1: ain't so. And I'm kind of perplexed because, as I said,

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Speaker 1: we had the Congress of the United States, overwhelmingly on

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Speaker 1: bipartisan basis in both houses, saying we have to remove

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Speaker 1: TikTok from the control of the Chinese Communist Party. We

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Speaker 1: had Joe Biden signed that into law. We had a

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Speaker 1: unanimous Supreme Court of the United States saying it's constitutional

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Speaker 1: to do that. It's a national security imperative. And we

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Speaker 1: have Donald Trump, who has been as robust as any

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Speaker 1: president in memory about the threat from the Chinese Communist Party,

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Speaker 1: now doing something you've described as an illegal nullification of

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Speaker 1: the law and a piece that you published at Gatestone.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know whether this is a temporary, you know,

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Speaker 1: thing that he will you know, move past inevitably and

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Speaker 1: in due course. But it is unsettling that he not

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Speaker 1: only has you know, decided to put all this on

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Speaker 1: pause somehow, but he also had the CEO of TikTok

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Speaker 1: in a you know, privileged place at his inauguration. What

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Speaker 1: do you make of all that?

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Speaker 2: I don't know what to make of it. If you

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Speaker 2: look at the Trump's Trump's activities and pronouncements so far

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Speaker 2: as president, we have to be extremely concerned.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's not only wanting to go to China in the

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Speaker 2: first hundred days to strike a grand bargain, and it's

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Speaker 2: not only inviting Siegen Ping to the inauguration, which he

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Speaker 2: didn't come, the Vice president came. But it is this

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Speaker 2: action of directing the Attorney General not to enforce the

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Speaker 2: congressional Act that you mentioned, the Protecting Americans from Foreign

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Speaker 2: Adversary Controlled Applications Act. So this is, as you say, disturbing.

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Speaker 2: Now I have friends who are not in the administration,

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Speaker 2: but who are close to them, who said that Trump

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Speaker 2: really knows how serious the China threat is. He's actually

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Speaker 2: working on it, and all of this is sort of

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Speaker 2: like a Jedi mind trick on the Chinese. I hope

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Speaker 2: that's true. But as Axio said, he's gone soft on China,

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Speaker 2: and we need to make sure that we hold him

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Speaker 2: to that.

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Speaker 1: We do. Indeed, Gordon, amiss, and hold the thought. We're

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Speaker 1: going to come right back with more than an extended

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Speaker 1: conversation with Gordon Chang. Stay tuned for it. Please welcome back.

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Speaker 1: Gordon Chang is in the house. I'm very pleased to say,

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Speaker 1: for a bit further and much more in depth conversation

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Speaker 1: than we sometimes are able to impose upon him. Gordon,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being generous with your time. I did

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Speaker 1: want to explore with you some of the signals being

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Speaker 1: sent at the moment you alluded to them in a

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Speaker 1: moment ago in sort of general the idea of going

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Speaker 1: to Beijing for one hundred day, you know, a grand

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Speaker 1: bargain negotiating exercise by the president. You talked about inviting

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Speaker 1: Ji to come to the inauguration and so on. What

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Speaker 1: I'd like to do is drilled down a little bit

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Speaker 1: further on some of the signals that are being sent

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Speaker 1: about Taiwan, notably by a man who is sitting pretty

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Speaker 1: close to the President's right hand. It appears Elon Musk

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Speaker 1: and the Gates a piece you challenged his thinking about Taiwan,

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Speaker 1: and I'd be interested in your thoughts about whether the

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Speaker 1: emerging evidence suggests it's reflective of a problematic attitude by

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Speaker 1: the president as well well.

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk has this view that Taiwan is part of China,

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Speaker 2: and really what we're doing is it would be a

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Speaker 2: part of the People's Republic were it not for the

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Speaker 2: US Navy, and that is wrong. You know, Elon Musk

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Speaker 2: can say we should give Taiwan to China, but he

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Speaker 2: can't change the facts. And the facts are that no

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Speaker 2: Chinese regime has ever held indisputable sovereignty to the island

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Speaker 2: of Taiwan. And that's a long historical discussion. One of

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Speaker 2: my favorite topics. I won't bore you with it, but

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Speaker 2: the point here is that the Qing dynasty, which for

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Speaker 2: a very period actually did rule some part of Taiwan,

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Speaker 2: was not considered Chinese, and Shan Kai Chek, who was

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Speaker 2: Chinese who did rule all of Taiwan, was not given

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Speaker 2: sovereignty by the nineteen fifty one San Francisco Treaty, which

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Speaker 2: ended and settled most of the legal disputes from World

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Speaker 2: War Two in Asia. So Elon Musk is wrong. And

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Speaker 2: by the way, the people in Taiwan, they love China,

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Speaker 2: but they don't believe that they are Chinese. And we

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Speaker 2: have seen this consistently from self identification survey to self

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Speaker 2: identification survey. They overwhelmingly believe that they're Taiwanese, not Chinese.

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Speaker 2: And so Elon Musk can say, yeah, we don't care

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Speaker 2: about it, we'll turn our backs, we'll be craven, but

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Speaker 2: he has to admit what he is doing because his

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Speaker 2: facts are one hundred percent, one hundred percent wrong.

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Speaker 1: This is a very helpful bit of historical level setting.

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Speaker 1: Gordon and I have to say that there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of confusion on that point. So we desperately need the

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Speaker 1: kind of authority you're bringing to this. In addition to

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Speaker 1: the fact that he may be wrong just on the

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Speaker 1: merits of the case, it certainly seems as though it

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Speaker 1: might have something to do with the fact that he

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Speaker 1: is deeply involved with the Chinese Communist Party in his businesses,

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Speaker 1: particularly Tesla in China. No, and to what extent is

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Speaker 1: that in your assessment, Gordon coloring perhaps not only his

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Speaker 1: own interests and attitudes, but also the kind of advice

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Speaker 1: or influence that he's exercising with President Trump.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not on in Elon Musk's mind and I'm

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Speaker 2: not part of the administration. They don't talk to me,

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Speaker 2: so I can't answer what exactly is going on, but

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Speaker 2: I can state the facts and that Tesla is dependent

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Speaker 2: on China. It has his gigafactory in Shanghai. It's going

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Speaker 2: to be making batteries there. And we've got to be concerned,

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Speaker 2: as the Senate has been concerned, that China's leverage over

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk because of Tesla will affect the way Elon

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Speaker 2: Musk manages SpaceX, because if we get back to the Moon,

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Speaker 2: or if we go to Mars or any of those things,

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Speaker 2: it will be primarily because of SpaceX won't be NASE,

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Speaker 2: won't be blue origin. So this is a national security

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Speaker 2: matter which we should have a discussion of. And as

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Speaker 2: I mentioned, the Senate has actually Senate committees have actually

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Speaker 2: discussed this very issue concern about China's leverage over elon Musk.

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Speaker 2: You know, the fact that he says Musk says things

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Speaker 2: which we just talked about in terms of China's sovereignty

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Speaker 2: over time, that's a real concern. So, as I said,

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Speaker 2: I'm not in his mind, but we all can see

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Speaker 2: the facts.

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Speaker 1: Gordon, I'm sorry to say that it appears as though

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Speaker 1: there are other people that are entering the administration at

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Speaker 1: various levels that are similarly of the view that Taiwan

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Speaker 1: is not our problem, that basically we need to avoid

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Speaker 1: conflict with the Chinese at all costs, and that if

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Speaker 1: we simply engage more with them in trade, particularly that

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Speaker 1: we will ameliorate their sense that we are the enemy

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Speaker 1: and they need to have a military build up to

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Speaker 1: counter us, and so on. Could you just do a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a sanity check on this idea. And

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Speaker 1: I want to specifically mention that among those who have

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Speaker 1: been espousing it is a guy who has been staffing

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Speaker 1: the the Trump Defense Department by the name of Dan Caldwell,

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Speaker 1: formerly of the Coke Family Enterprise, and another alumnus of

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Speaker 1: that group, namely John Andrew Byers, who is the new

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Speaker 1: Deputy Assistant Secretary for South and Southeast Asia. I don't

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Speaker 1: think China is specifically in his portfolio, but obviously his

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Speaker 1: influence would be felt on our policies towards the region.

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Speaker 1: Could you just explicate for us where this inevitably takes you,

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Speaker 1: if this becomes the kind of policy approach that President Trump,

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Speaker 1: despite his past record, despite I think his body of

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Speaker 1: work on the danger that we face from the Chinese

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Speaker 1: Communist Party, is now embracing.

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Speaker 2: Well, it takes us perhaps to the World War three.

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Speaker 2: And let me go back up for a moment. You know,

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Speaker 2: Trump's foreign policy, as we're starting to see it focuses

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Speaker 2: on the Western hemisphere. I don't think he's that interested

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Speaker 2: in any other part of the world. And yes, it

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Speaker 2: is welcome that he is now paying attention to Panama Canal,

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Speaker 2: for instance, and all sorts of things. It doesn't mean

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Speaker 2: you abandon the rest of the world. And what we're

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Speaker 2: hearing people right now are too embarrassed to say that

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Speaker 2: they're engagers, but they do now talk about restraint, and

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Speaker 2: so I guess we can call them the restrainers. The

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Speaker 2: problem is that this is taking us to a place

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Speaker 2: where it is going to allow the world's worst elements,

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Speaker 2: in other words, China and Russia from absorbing large portions

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Speaker 2: of the globe. You know, we saw this in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirties where Britain and France were so much more

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Speaker 2: powerful than the Third Reich. But restrain themselves. For instance,

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Speaker 2: they restrain themselves eighteen thirty six, where they allowed the

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Speaker 2: remilitarization of the Rhineland and violation of the Versailles Treaty.

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Speaker 2: They didn't do anything when Hitler absorbed Austria in nineteen

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Speaker 2: thirty eight. In nineteen thirty eight. Later on they had

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Speaker 2: the Munich Pack, and they allowed Hitler to violate the

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Speaker 2: Munich Pack by taking the parts of Czechoslovakia that were

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Speaker 2: supposed to be outside the Third Reich. So that was

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Speaker 2: World War Two, and we're seeing essentially the same thing

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Speaker 2: happen right now. If we allowed China to take Taiwan,

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Speaker 2: parts of Philippines, Japan, whatever, and we allowed Vladimir Putin

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Speaker 2: to absorb Ukraine. That's World War three. Right now. We

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Speaker 2: have wars in Ukraine, we have insurgencies in North Africa

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Speaker 2: that looked like wars. We got the war in the

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Speaker 2: Middle East. You add one more war in East Asia,

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Speaker 2: and that is World War three. And I don't want

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Speaker 2: to exaggerate it, but Frank that really looks like where

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Speaker 2: we're going now. I hope that Trump has more sense

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Speaker 2: than that. But clearly, when you look at, for instance,

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Speaker 2: the evolution of the thought of people who were very

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Speaker 2: pro Taiwan who have gone into the administration, who have

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Speaker 2: now gone soft on the issue, we got to be

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Speaker 2: extremely concerned.

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Speaker 1: Good. I can't overstate the importance of what you've just said. This.

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Speaker 1: I call it not restraint, I call it retreat. And

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Speaker 1: the impact that has on totalitarian thugs, whether it's Adolf

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Speaker 1: Hitler or whether it's Joseph Stalin or whether it's Jijingping,

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Speaker 1: is absolutely predictable. They see a vacuum of power, they

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Speaker 1: will fill it, and they will fill it to the

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Speaker 1: maximum degree they can at our expense, not just the

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Speaker 1: freedom loving people of Taiwan or others. And I guess

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Speaker 1: the thing that I'm so concerned about, as obviously are you,

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Speaker 1: is that what I've called world war world War three,

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Speaker 1: world War g He's already underway. It's just a question

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Speaker 1: now does it expand still further to you know, our

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Speaker 1: mortal peril, both in East Asia and quite probably here.

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Speaker 1: And it need not be that way. If we are

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Speaker 1: signaling robustly as Donald Trump has, I think on the

433
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: campaign trail, among other places, we would be doing to

434
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: the Chinese Communist Party. Let me ask you about one

435
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: other thing quickly, A Gordon. We've got about a minute.

436
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: President Trump said in his remarks I believe right after

437
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: his inaugural address, well he's still up in the capital,

438
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: to a bunch of supporters, that he had had a

439
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: very good conversation with Vladimir Putin a while back about

440
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: getting into some new parley. Arms control, I guess is

441
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: what they're calling. It talks about denuclearizing the arsenals of

442
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: Russia and the United States. But also he indicated that

443
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: China was on board with us. Do you thirty seconds,

444
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: do you see any evidence of that, sir?

445
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 2: Extremely little China has been adamant about not joining arms

446
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: controlled discussions, and they're now adding basically conditions that would

447
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 2: make arms controlled discussions impossible. They want the United States

448
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: and Russia to reduce the arsenals before they even start

449
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 2: talking to China.

450
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: So I think that's been their historic position, but they're

451
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: not deviating from it.

452
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 2: Is the point, yeah, this is There are all sorts

453
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: of good things in the world you can't accomplish.

454
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: This is one of them. Amen to Gordon, Thank you

455
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: for so much. Come back to us soon if you would,

456
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: God blessed, we'll be right back. Folks to stay too.

457
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: Welcome back, and a very special welcome to my favorite

458
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: co host. Her name is Dede Logison. She is the

459
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: executive director of Save the Persecuted Christians, wonderful organization I'm

460
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: proud to be president of and to each week help

461
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: educate us about what is happening to the most heavily

462
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: persecuted population on the planet and the largest persecuted population

463
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: on the planet for that matter, namely Christians around the world.

464
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: She is kind enough to bring to our program each

465
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: week a special guest, and we have a very special

466
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: one today. Introduce him if you would.

467
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 3: Thanks Frank. We have worked long and hard with Mattias Pertula,

468
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:12,719
Speaker 3: who is the executive director of Save Armenia. Many people

469
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 3: do not really even know where Armenia is. It's in

470
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 3: the Caucuses, you know, north of Iran, east of Turkey,

471
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 3: west of Azerbaijan, and it's really stuck in the middle.

472
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 3: But it is the world's first Christian nation, having converted

473
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 3: to Christianity as a nation in three hundred and one AD.

474
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 3: So we're happy to have Mattias here with us. We

475
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 3: work together on elevating the issues facing Armenia. Mattias tell

476
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 3: us a little bit about Armenia and the threats that

477
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 3: they are facing, the Christians there are facing.

478
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 4: Sure, so then not to belabor too much on this point,

479
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 4: but you know, obviously the first Christian country in the world.

480
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 4: But you know, over the last three years or so,

481
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 4: President Aliev of Azerbaijan, alongside with Turkey, have really ramped

482
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 4: up the pressure on Armenia on a number of different ways,

483
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 4: most recently in twenty twenty three in September, where Aliev

484
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 4: and his military invaded a region known as Nagarno Karabak.

485
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 4: This is an Armenian Christian region and has been Armenian

486
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 4: Christian for literally since Christ walked the earth or in

487
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 4: those days, and covered in churches and cemeteries of Christian

488
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 4: Armenian heritage, all of which is under threat now by

489
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 4: President Aliev in his military and destroying these churches and

490
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 4: these cemeteries. There's another enclave to the west of Armenia

491
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 4: known as Nanichevan, and this is another area where the Asis.

492
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 4: They control this region, but they have also ethnically cleansed

493
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 4: that region over the years, to the point that we've

494
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 4: heard numbers that they have destroyed more churches, more holy

495
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 4: sides than Isis has destroyed in their rampays throughout the

496
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 4: Middle Eaged Miast.

497
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 3: That is just so disturbing to hear about these ancient,

498
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 3: many of them going back centuries, historic churches being raised.

499
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 2: To the ground.

500
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 3: And online you can see the Jihattists because we have

501
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 3: the Turkish Islamis in Azerbaijan who are brothers to the

502
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 3: Turks in Turkey and they'd like to go right across

503
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 3: Armenia and open up a trade route. So there's a

504
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 3: lot of rhetoric coming from both leaders and very disturbing.

505
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 3: All of this started under the cover of COVID in

506
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 3: twenty twenty when they attacked when Azerbaijan attacked Nigerna Kara

507
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 3: bakh Uh, and we brought in September a number of

508
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 3: witnesses from the Nigerna Karabak region, refugees from there who

509
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 3: are now living in Armenia proper. Tell us a little

510
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:19,800
Speaker 3: bit more about their stories and and and what they're experiencing.

511
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 4: Now, Yeah, some of the witnesses that we are instance

512
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 4: brought in September, One of them really touched my heart.

513
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 4: Her sister was captured by the Azaris, raped, gang, raped,

514
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 4: and mutilated for weeks on end. And to take it

515
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 4: beyond that, they celebrated these actions publicly on various social

516
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 4: media channels, celebrating how they had overcome this and this

517
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 4: woman and so on, and just built the most horrific

518
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 4: things you could possibly imagine to put a person through.

519
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 4: The other individuals we had was a father who ran

520
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 4: a monastery in Nagarno Karabak that was bombed. One of

521
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 4: the ladies that was joining us was with him when

522
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 4: that area was being bombed and she lost her oldest

523
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,919
Speaker 4: child in that bombing. Indiscriminate targeting of civilian areas by

524
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 4: the Asis is just absolutely horrendous. We need what we've

525
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 4: been trying to do is get the word out on

526
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 4: all these stories because this conflict that just didn't grab

527
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 4: enough attention. Most of the world ignored. There was a

528
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 4: lot going on, certainly and rightfully so with everything that

529
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 4: Israel was dealing with Hamas and so on. But these

530
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 4: stories need to get told and this issue needs more attention.

531
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 3: So yeah, next week at the International Religious Freedom Summit

532
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 3: will be bringing Armenian witnesses and experts. Again, what do

533
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 3: you hope for the IRF Summit, the International Religious Freedom Summit.

534
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 4: I am very hopeful that during this week this issue

535
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 4: is going to get elevated like never before and they

536
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 4: will get their due do notoriety and support that they

537
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 4: need in this really, really critical time. As you mentioned,

538
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 4: the rhetoric has been building up again from President Aliev,

539
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 4: and usually this kind of heinous rhetoric from this leader

540
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 4: precedes potential military incursions or more military interaction against Armenia.

541
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 4: So we need to be very watchful of this and

542
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 4: this issue needs to be on the radars all decision

543
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 4: makers and DC advocates and international religious freedom groups working

544
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 4: together in concerts.

545
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: Yes, we have to take a short break here, just

546
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: a moment. I wanted just to add to what you've

547
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: said and set up further conversation about this on the

548
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: other side, and that is unfortunately, we're on notice already

549
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 1: from the Azaris and the Turks for that matter, that

550
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: they intend to do to our Menia what they've done

551
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: recently to nigoona carba or outside as it's called. And

552
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: so it is now incumbent upon us, and I hope

553
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: the International Religious Freedom Summit will provide the vehicle that

554
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: you're talking about to push back very aggressively with the

555
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: help of the Trump administration on this idea, because I

556
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: think you're absolutely right. If past is prelude, what they're

557
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: doing right now is cycling up for the next act

558
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 1: of genocide against Christians. It must be blocked. We'll be

559
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: right back with more with did Logison Metees Bertilla right

560
00:39:43,719 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 1: after this welcome back. We are in the midst of

561
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: my favorite segment of the week. I think that is

562
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: the one I share with our friend and colleague D. D. Logison,

563
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: save the Persecuted Christians segment. We're visiting with Mattias Peter,

564
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: a man who is in the forefront of the fight

565
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: to avoid further persecution and indeed genocide against Christians in

566
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: Armenia at the hands of Azerbaijan and Turkey, and we

567
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: were talking before the break a little bit, Mattias, could

568
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: you just read us in a little bit more detail

569
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: on what the what the Azaries their allies have been

570
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: saying about their plans for Armenia and what Trump administration

571
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 1: has been saying about it as well.

572
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely happy to so a little bit of context here.

573
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 4: Turkey is Azerbaijan's closest ally. They are responsible for modernizing

574
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 4: Azerbaijan's military up to NATO standards, as we all know,

575
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 4: Turkey's a NATO ally. But recently in terms of rhetoric

576
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 4: of what the Aliv regime has been saying, now they're

577
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 4: calling Armenia this fascist regime and it needs to be removed.

578
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 4: These Nazis need to be removed, which is complete you know,

579
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 4: I don't need to complete bogus in this sense. It's

580
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 4: all just political rhetoric, ramping up the international community and

581
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 4: trying to create some sort of public cover as to

582
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 4: why they want to be attacked, why they want to

583
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,320
Speaker 4: be going back into Armenia, and trying to justify their actions.

584
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 4: The reality is that Aliev and Azerbaijan have been working

585
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 4: very closely with Turkey to wanting to eradicate Armenia completely

586
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 4: from the region. In fact, there's even reports of secret

587
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 4: projects and where they are renaming Armenian cities into Azerbaijani

588
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 4: names and so on. In fact, they even call Armenia

589
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 4: the Western Azerbaijan, if you can believe that. So the

590
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 4: intentions are quite clear on what their long term game is.

591
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,959
Speaker 4: They want to connect the two countries Turkey and Azerbaijan,

592
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 4: and Armenia is standing in the middle.

593
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: And the idea would be to essentially take at least

594
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: part of it, if not all of it too, if

595
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: not all of it connection And what would that mean

596
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: for Christians? Is there any doubt in your mind that

597
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: this would be in fact violent and very very genocidal

598
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: in character.

599
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 4: Well, if you look at the track record of Nagarno Karabak,

600
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 4: it will be very violent. You know, scores of people

601
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 4: have died in that I do not think the level

602
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 4: of vitriol against the Armenian Christians from Azerbaijan is at

603
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 4: that level of genocidal talk. It will create a massive

604
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 4: humanity humanitarian disaster in the region. Forced the removal of

605
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 4: Armenian Christians from that region, which they've inhabited for hundreds

606
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 4: and thousands of years. It will be a disastrous, disastrous

607
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 4: situation for that region.

608
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: And of course, the Turks did engage in genocide against

609
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: the Yes, Christians in the of course of World War One.

610
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Donald Trump. Did he during his campaign?

611
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: Of course he was vocally concerned about the Armenian situation.

612
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: Give us a sense of what he's promised and what

613
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: we expect will come from his administration.

614
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 3: Now, Yeah, so that President Trump was, as you said,

615
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 3: tweeting about Armenia just at the end of his campaign,

616
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 3: which was a and that was in preparation for COP

617
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 3: twenty nine, in which Azerbaijan was elevated after ethnically cleansing

618
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 3: Nigorno Kara Bak to host this World conference on climate

619
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 3: and elevated on the world stage, much to just the

620
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 3: chagrin of human rights advocates like ourselves who fought to

621
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 3: boycott back who and continue to press that message that

622
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 3: the world should not stand with Azerbaijean or partner with

623
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 3: them as they're committing acts of genocide against their neighbors.

624
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 3: So President Trump has yeah, and threatening so much worse.

625
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 3: So President Trump has been vocal on this, and I

626
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 3: think that he is going to not waive the Section

627
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 3: nine oh seven sanctions which bar military sales to Azerbaijean.

628
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 3: This Senate blocked that last year for fiscal year twenty

629
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 3: four and twenty five, but it didn't pass through. Yeah,

630
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 3: but it didn't pass through Congress, and so this Every

631
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 3: president since those have been put in place has waived

632
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 3: those sanctions. But I don't think President Trump is going

633
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 3: to sell military arms into Azerbaijan, knowing what's a foot

634
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 3: with Armenia.

635
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 4: What are your thoughts on that, Mattias, Well, certainly my hopes,

636
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 4: I mean my hopes aligned with what Didi has said.

637
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 4: The tweet or the post that Donald Trump put out

638
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 4: in the campaign was very pointed, and he put it

639
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 4: in a way that highlighted the one hundred and twenty thousand

640
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 4: Christians that were forcefully removed from Nagarnal Karbak. He made

641
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 4: it very very specific, and I think he means business.

642
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 4: If we know Donald Trump, he means business and he

643
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 4: means to follow through with what his promises are. So

644
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 4: I from my perspective, I'm very hopeful to see the

645
00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:00,320
Speaker 4: pressure put on Azerbaijan and to really brings the ability

646
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 4: and peace into that region. The Armenians one piece, the

647
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 4: Armenian Christians one piece. They're ready to sign peace deals yesterday,

648
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 4: the day before. The Ali regime is the one that

649
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 4: continues to come up with bogus excuses as to why

650
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 4: they cannot sign and make ridiculous demands of the Armenian government.

651
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 1: Holding.

652
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 3: Yes, they're holding prisoners of conscience in Azerbaijan.

653
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: We've only got a minute left. I did want to

654
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 1: just add that another consideration for President Trump, I would

655
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: hope would be the fact that Turkey is actively engaged

656
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: in genocidal activities elsewhere, notably in Syria at the moment

657
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: against Kurds and Christians were told your insights into that problem.

658
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 4: Turkey needs to be held to account. Finally, absolutely, and

659
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 4: I don't think that the Trump administration is ignorant about

660
00:46:55,520 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 4: what the Turkey's Turkish ambitions are and they realize full

661
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 4: well what Urduwan is attempting to do in the region.

662
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 4: They want to project themselves as the great power in

663
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 4: that region. Now's the time for Donald Trump and for

664
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 4: this administration to really put the pressure on Turkey, just

665
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 4: the way they did with Andrew Brunson when he was

666
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 4: being held in prison. That's the same thing that needs

667
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 4: to happen.

668
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 1: We have to leave it at that. I just want

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00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 1: to conclude by saying that is one of the things

670
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: that we say the persecuted Christians are very actively championing,

671
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: and that is hold the persecutors accountable, penalize them for

672
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: what they're doing to great disincentives to it. Thank you

673
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: both for your great work. Keep it up. We'll look

674
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 1: forward to a report after the summit. God bless you,

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00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: God bless all the well. I hope you'll come back

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00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: to us next time, and until then you will go

677
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: forth and multiply