Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Greg Daniels. I was the showrunner of the Office. Hello,
Speaker 1: Hello everybody, Thank you for diving in to another episode
Speaker 1: of the Office Deep Dive. See what I did there.
Speaker 1: I am your host, Brian baumb Gartner, and I am
Speaker 1: so thankful that you are here. Yes, for those of
Speaker 1: you listening in real time. It is Thanksgiving week here
Speaker 1: in the States, and I love this time of year truly.
Speaker 1: The Crisp Air, my birthday, the fall Leaves, my birthday, Football,
Speaker 1: it is the best, all right. And as I mentioned
Speaker 1: last week, working on this podcast with some of my
Speaker 1: favorite people and the whole entire world has just been well,
Speaker 1: it's hard to put into words, but it is definitely
Speaker 1: the thing that I am most thankful for this Thanksgiving
Speaker 1: my family aside, of course, but know this, my podcast,
Speaker 1: this podcast, it has truly changed my life. And the
Speaker 1: other thing that, without question has changed my life. Who
Speaker 1: I'm so thankful to be talking to today is our showrunner,
Speaker 1: Greg Daniels. His brilliance, his mentorship, his general aura of greatness.
Speaker 1: I am just so happy and feel so blessed that
Speaker 1: this man is a part of my life. So I'm
Speaker 1: going to bring you today the last part of my
Speaker 1: conversation with Greg. As you know, he was the creator
Speaker 1: of the Office, and he has gone on to make
Speaker 1: Parks and Wreck and Upload and Space Force and so
Speaker 1: much more. He also wrote the foreword of our new book,
Speaker 1: Welcome to dunder Mifflin, So if you get a chance,
Speaker 1: go check that out. But it was important for me
Speaker 1: that on this week of giving thanks, that I give
Speaker 1: thanks to my boss of almost a decade. And while
Speaker 1: famously Michael Scott was the world's best boss, everything he
Speaker 1: knew he learned from Greg Daniels. Is that a compliment?
Speaker 1: I don't know, but anyway, give it up for the
Speaker 1: best boss on the entire planet the galaxy, the incomparable
Speaker 1: Greg Daniels. Love it bubble and squeak bubble and squeaker
Speaker 1: cookie at every moment. Lift over from the nut people. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: here's kind of a fun one. So you worked with um,
Speaker 1: Steve Carrell, Yeah, John Krasinski, Rain Wilson, and well myself
Speaker 1: and um I've heard it has been said that your
Speaker 1: favorite actor of all time is Paul Aberstein. Paul is
Speaker 1: very good. I mean, I'm certainly not gonna say anything
Speaker 1: negative about Paul. I don't want to rank you guys,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's fair. But Paul is like it
Speaker 1: didn't expect him to be so good. You know, he
Speaker 1: basically just filled in at the table read in season one,
Speaker 1: and Kevin would go to the table reads and Paul
Speaker 1: got laughs and Kevin was like, what happened to that
Speaker 1: guy with the red hair? You know? Put him in
Speaker 1: more And that's how he got on the show pretty much.
Speaker 1: But he always had an interesting attitude about it. And
Speaker 1: you know, Paul is like a jazz vibraphonist. Uh and
Speaker 1: I feel like something about that jazz timing was in
Speaker 1: his performance and was like a little bit unusual. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know he's great, but I don't I don't want
Speaker 1: to say like, uh, anybody's better than anybody else. Why
Speaker 1: why did you? Why did you choose Paul and Jen
Speaker 1: to run the show after when when you left to
Speaker 1: go to Parks. Well, Um, the interesting thing about making
Speaker 1: the writer's performers is that that kind of bites you
Speaker 1: a little bit. Like season one, we wrote all the scripts,
Speaker 1: we shot all the shows, and then I went into
Speaker 1: editing and just did full time editing. And that was
Speaker 1: great because you could be physically presented everything it was
Speaker 1: really on. And that was when you know, Paul became
Speaker 1: a character, Mindy became a character. B J was always
Speaker 1: a character, and there was no downside to that. Season
Speaker 1: two we start and then those guys go off to
Speaker 1: the set and I'm suddenly looking around. I've got like
Speaker 1: half the staff, you know, I got Mike and Jen
Speaker 1: and Lee Jean, and that's it. Everybody else is on set,
Speaker 1: you know. And then they'd show up and they obviously
Speaker 1: still did great stuff and wrote great episodes and everything,
Speaker 1: but there were times when the room was a little
Speaker 1: bit thin because they were acting and Mike was a
Speaker 1: very mature, full package, like he could produce, he could write,
Speaker 1: and he wasn't one of the main characters. And I
Speaker 1: also felt very much responsible to the cast and to Steve,
Speaker 1: and if Steve was not going to go do movies
Speaker 1: and bug out and was going to stick with it,
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be the guy who was, you know,
Speaker 1: gonna do something to detriment the show, right, So I
Speaker 1: didn't want to haven't be like, oh, you can't find
Speaker 1: me into your pall on set because they're doing a
Speaker 1: spin off or whatever, and it and I guess Mike
Speaker 1: could worked there for four years, and he was gonna
Speaker 1: go anyway, do you know what I mean. It's not
Speaker 1: like he was gonna put the rest of his career
Speaker 1: working there. He was pretty icious and headed places. So
Speaker 1: I felt like he would be a good choice to
Speaker 1: do it because I could set it up with him
Speaker 1: and then he could run it and I could still
Speaker 1: see the office throom. So and we had different ideas,
Speaker 1: like the Parks is the idea of Okay, it's mockumentary.
Speaker 1: Instead of being about business and the private sector, it's
Speaker 1: about the public sector. But at the same time, I
Speaker 1: had an idea that I thought was good, which was
Speaker 1: all right, workplace is a good genre of TV comedy,
Speaker 1: But an even bigger genre is family show. What about
Speaker 1: a mockumentary about a family show? And and I had
Speaker 1: a plan after Mike was going to spin off and
Speaker 1: do Parks, I was going to do a show with
Speaker 1: Jen and we were going to do the family sitcom
Speaker 1: one And we had worked it out ed Helms was
Speaker 1: gonna maybe be the lead with Catherine Tate as his wife,
Speaker 1: and they were, and it was going to be the
Speaker 1: mockumentary looking at a cul de sac, some kind of
Speaker 1: suburban cul de Sac and then Modern Family came out
Speaker 1: and you know, it was huge hit that kind of
Speaker 1: put the end too that plan, right, Mike Sure said
Speaker 1: about being asked to go and develop Parks and rec
Speaker 1: they basically said that it feels like, um, Mozart told
Speaker 1: me he wants to design a piano with me. It's
Speaker 1: not Steinway Mozart both are designing a piano. Let's are
Speaker 1: very incompetent piano maker. Yeah, but still somebody who probably
Speaker 1: should follow. But yeah, that's cool, that's nice. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: It was certainly fun to do Parks. I mean we
Speaker 1: you know, we're so close to the Office that we
Speaker 1: thought Parks was just completely different. I mean like we
Speaker 1: I didn't see it as having any bearing it all
Speaker 1: on the office, Like we got a female and it's
Speaker 1: a completely you know, a different world and everything. And
Speaker 1: of course, in the same way like it took season
Speaker 1: one to be able to get free of the English show,
Speaker 1: you know, like season one, Parks was too close probably
Speaker 1: still and I think we figured that out. We didn't
Speaker 1: have a pilot because Ben was now running NBC and
Speaker 1: Ben hooked us straight to series for Parks, and so
Speaker 1: by the time we looked at the footage of the pilot.
Speaker 1: We already shooting episode three or something from Parks, but
Speaker 1: we kind of steered it around. Part of it was
Speaker 1: I remember thinking, like, Okay, it's not all about a
Speaker 1: crazy central character. It's more like thirty Rock maybe, where
Speaker 1: the central character is surrounded by crazy and like when
Speaker 1: we kind of made that adjustment, it seemed to work better.
Speaker 1: But but Amy is like very different from Steve. She's
Speaker 1: a different type of performer in what way. Well, like
Speaker 1: I don't think she can hide her intelligence. Like one
Speaker 1: of to me, one of Steve's um real gifts is
Speaker 1: you can stare at his face and he's doing something
Speaker 1: really stupid and you can't tell that he is aware
Speaker 1: that is stupid, you know what I mean. He completely
Speaker 1: hides his intelligence. And Amy probably could if she wanted to,
Speaker 1: but chooses not to, and she just she doesn't hide it.
Speaker 1: And I think maybe it's also being a woman, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's like it means something different
Speaker 1: to hide your intelligence. It's more retro and you know, uncool,
Speaker 1: probably to hide your intelligence as a woman. So it
Speaker 1: didn't fit great to have her play naive. She had
Speaker 1: to be a little smarter. What do you think was
Speaker 1: the bigger loss, Michael or Steve. Huh wow, Oh yeah, well, um,
Speaker 1: I do think that when we said goodbye to Steve,
Speaker 1: it became really clear how much the crew loved him,
Speaker 1: and the stories from different crew members was really sweet.
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember like when forty year old Virgin
Speaker 1: was still in theaters and he was the biggest movie
Speaker 1: star in the country and we were shooting I think
Speaker 1: the Dundee's, and um, we were in a parking lot
Speaker 1: like of a defunct Black Angus. It's two or three
Speaker 1: in the morning, and his entire role is to drive
Speaker 1: the car away from Jenna after saying his line. And
Speaker 1: he's doing it at three in the morning, take after
Speaker 1: take after take to support her in that scene where
Speaker 1: so many people would have been like, yeah, you put
Speaker 1: the photo double in goodbye, And I'm doing a show
Speaker 1: with him now. I'm doing Space Force with him now,
Speaker 1: and he's number one on the call sheet. Same deal.
Speaker 1: We just had our rap party. The crew came up
Speaker 1: to me. They were all like, it starts at the top.
Speaker 1: The vibe on the set is so beautiful and everybody's
Speaker 1: you know, such a great feeling and and everything, but
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that I got out
Speaker 1: of working with Steve was like I didn't really have
Speaker 1: an improv background, you know what I mean, Like I
Speaker 1: had come from Sketch Comedy and then Simpson's. And when
Speaker 1: we started working together, he told me about this book
Speaker 1: Truth and Comedy, which is kind of like the bible
Speaker 1: of the Chicago improv world, and I found that to
Speaker 1: be really the key to kind of how he worked
Speaker 1: and it saved us a bunch of times. When one
Speaker 1: of my favorite memories of Steve as a producer or
Speaker 1: as a you know, not as an actor, is we
Speaker 1: were doing Dundee's and the problem was we went to
Speaker 1: Black Angus and then we went to Chili's restaurant, and
Speaker 1: we didn't actually get any money for it. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not like what they paid us a lot of
Speaker 1: money to use Chili's. What they did was they sent
Speaker 1: us their branded decorations for set deck. So we say, yeah,
Speaker 1: we've got the menus and we got some signs and stuff. Anyway,
Speaker 1: so we're there. We're at this defunct Black Angus for
Speaker 1: three days shooting with all the Chili stuff, and like
Speaker 1: on day two, the Chili's lawyers call and they go oh, hey,
Speaker 1: we just looked at the script, the part where Pam
Speaker 1: is so drunk she throws up. That's not gonna work
Speaker 1: for us. We're being sued for overserving patrons and we
Speaker 1: can't that's a bad look, So you can't do that.
Speaker 1: And I was like cocky at this point. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well we're shot two thirds of our shoot, you know.
Speaker 1: And I turned to the Universal executives and I was like, well,
Speaker 1: check the contract with the Chilis because obviously you know,
Speaker 1: they don't have editorial control. And they're like, uh, there's
Speaker 1: no contract. There's no written contract. We just thought we'd
Speaker 1: say fifty thou dollars of set deck and we just
Speaker 1: did it on a handshake. So then we were like, well, wait, wait, wait, wait,
Speaker 1: what do we do? What do we do? And they
Speaker 1: were like, well, you don't have to take that note,
Speaker 1: but in that case, you can't show any of the
Speaker 1: branded set decoration that we sent you, which meant that
Speaker 1: we would have had to shoot go back to the
Speaker 1: beginning and not used the two days that we already shot,
Speaker 1: which we couldn't afford right because it was hundreds of
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars. So I was like getting ill in
Speaker 1: the corner freaking out, and Steve notices and it's like,
Speaker 1: what's up. And I told them the situation and the
Speaker 1: thing that was so cool to me was this improv thing,
Speaker 1: like he had utter faith always that he would his
Speaker 1: creativity would never flag, that he would be able to
Speaker 1: find an answer when it was necessary, Like that's what
Speaker 1: all that improv training was. And I completely shut down.
Speaker 1: I was like going to blow my brains out, and
Speaker 1: he was like, okay, all right, well, all right, and
Speaker 1: then he came up with this notion of the manager
Speaker 1: being interviewed and saying that Pam had a lifetime band
Speaker 1: from Chili's and it solved everything. And I really was like, huh,
Speaker 1: that's a different way to live than I'm used to.
Speaker 1: You know, the overthinker doesn't doesn't do that right. I
Speaker 1: had all my plans had just been thrown for a loop,
Speaker 1: and uh so I feel like I tried take that away.
Speaker 1: I think it's like a little bit of a religion
Speaker 1: for him to be an improv guy. What do you
Speaker 1: remember about because you obviously you came back for Goodbye
Speaker 1: my call Um, How did you feel writing him off?
Speaker 1: I mean, did you did you feel like the show
Speaker 1: was going to should go on past him. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I did, because you know, part of the painful part
Speaker 1: of my job is as the showrunner, you're not done
Speaker 1: when the rap right. You've got to go edit all
Speaker 1: of the things. So, like at least the third maybe more,
Speaker 1: my job was sitting with the editors cutting the show
Speaker 1: down and it then it made a huge difference in
Speaker 1: our show because our rough cuts were thirty eight minutes
Speaker 1: long and we had to get down to three or whatever. So, um,
Speaker 1: that's an enormous amount to throw out, and it was
Speaker 1: very painful because we could get the show down to
Speaker 1: twenty six minutes or something with with just cutting the fat,
Speaker 1: but then after that you got to cut the muscle.
Speaker 1: You know, there's good scenes that are not going to
Speaker 1: be brought cast. And you know, once we got five
Speaker 1: or six years into the show, the full ensemble was
Speaker 1: really working and capable of doing really good stuff. And
Speaker 1: so the best argument to me to continue was it
Speaker 1: would let all these people who didn't have as much
Speaker 1: screen time have more screen time. And Steve didn't obviously
Speaker 1: didn't want us to shut down, so I kind of
Speaker 1: felt like it was it was good that we would
Speaker 1: do Okay, Now, the difficulty is that people are not
Speaker 1: created to be leads and you know, all that stuff
Speaker 1: that I was saying the beginning of positioning Steve in
Speaker 1: in season two and finding you know, ways that he
Speaker 1: has good intentions and is more of a lead and everything.
Speaker 1: Like I knew the Dwight had been created to be
Speaker 1: the foil to these people and was a charactery creation
Speaker 1: to begin with. Andy Bernard was created to be the
Speaker 1: Stanford version of Dwight, you know, in season three, like, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, Jim shows up in Stanford and he's got
Speaker 1: this weirdo who's like a preppy weirdo, like a different
Speaker 1: type of weirdo, and um and well and also he
Speaker 1: was an idiot, like unlike Dwight, who you know, Dwight
Speaker 1: was an idiot in his own way, but I mean,
Speaker 1: like sorry bad at his job, Like he had been
Speaker 1: positioned as being not good at his job. He was
Speaker 1: not very good at his job. He punched holes in walls.
Speaker 1: You know, he would have needed a lot of the
Speaker 1: same kind of moving the character over that we did
Speaker 1: in season two, and I believe Paul was doing that
Speaker 1: with Andy, but it was different because we were everybody
Speaker 1: was paying close attention to the show at that point,
Speaker 1: so there was definitely a lot of like, there was
Speaker 1: a lot of for some reason. The thing with the
Speaker 1: Office is like people get super into it obviously, which
Speaker 1: is great, but then there's then there's so much attention
Speaker 1: and worry about changing it or touching it or you know,
Speaker 1: don't touch my my beloved thing. Right. So in the
Speaker 1: same way there was all this negative attention about adapting
Speaker 1: the British show. I think that there was a lot of,
Speaker 1: you know, worry about making any changes to it, right. Well,
Speaker 1: but I think you you think of the Office right
Speaker 1: as this place of stasis, right, and we're all there
Speaker 1: in one room, and there's the whole bullpen and everybody's
Speaker 1: there all the time, and it's all the same. But
Speaker 1: I think one of the special things that you did
Speaker 1: was you created sort of a kinetic energy by changing,
Speaker 1: by constantly changing it and not keeping it the same.
Speaker 1: Bringing in the Stanford Branch and Ed and Rashida or
Speaker 1: Jenna leaving and going to art school or so much
Speaker 1: of that was being driven by Pam and Jim and
Speaker 1: the romantic storyline and the way those two characters were
Speaker 1: set up. They were soul mates. And what I didn't
Speaker 1: want to do was, like so many shows, they come together,
Speaker 1: they break apart, they come together, they break apart. You know,
Speaker 1: it didn't seem real. I felt like, when they finally
Speaker 1: get together, they're going to be together. I don't see
Speaker 1: anything breaking them up. So then the question was, well,
Speaker 1: how do you spend this out for a certain number
Speaker 1: of years? Right? So? Um, you know, so a lot
Speaker 1: of it was what are the obstacles? And we you know,
Speaker 1: when I was trying to figure out what came next
Speaker 1: in the show, I didn't have an entire season broken.
Speaker 1: I would be able to have about a half a
Speaker 1: season arked out. And the thought with Pam and Jim was, okay,
Speaker 1: you know season one, she's obviously with Roy. Well, actually
Speaker 1: season one there the only kind of thing was he
Speaker 1: was obviously pining, and then he starts dating first girl,
Speaker 1: right right. So season two she's with Roy and he's
Speaker 1: getting closer and close short to confessing his feelings and
Speaker 1: he rolls the dice. And you always feel like when
Speaker 1: you're watching a TV show, we're worry about the yank,
Speaker 1: you know, that's what we call it in the writer's
Speaker 1: room where the Jeopardy of the episode is something you
Speaker 1: don't really believe because it would change the show. You know,
Speaker 1: like you don't really believe like Rain is going to
Speaker 1: go work for Staples. Why it's going to leave the show.
Speaker 1: It's like, no, he's too important to the show. You're
Speaker 1: not gonna set him to the Staples. So we set
Speaker 1: up the situation where Jim was like, well, maybe I
Speaker 1: should take that job in Stanford, and um, we were
Speaker 1: like us, that a yank. I don't know, We're worried,
Speaker 1: is that a yank? And then we were like, let's
Speaker 1: let's put him in Stanford, you know, let's really make
Speaker 1: it happen, and that'll give us a whole new lease
Speaker 1: on the Jim Pam thing because it's a new obstacle.
Speaker 1: And that cooled it off a lot. And then by
Speaker 1: the time he finally came back, he had Karen and
Speaker 1: that gave us another thing. And then around the like
Speaker 1: Beach Games area, the obstacle was Okay, the obstacle is
Speaker 1: now Pam. It's in Pam's court. She wants to be
Speaker 1: with Jim, but she's too timid, and so then she
Speaker 1: walks on the fire and we were like kind of
Speaker 1: got past that obstacle and then eventually was like, well,
Speaker 1: I can't see any more obstacles. Got to get it together,
Speaker 1: and get them together sooner, like slightly sooner than the
Speaker 1: audience thinks, so that you could preserve you know, a
Speaker 1: surprise to it. Uh yeah, so, but that drove an
Speaker 1: awful lot of the changes and bringing people in and everything.
Speaker 1: Another thing that was super unique about what you did,
Speaker 1: and I remember you talking about it when it was
Speaker 1: going on, but that you wanted the episodes to air
Speaker 1: roughly when they were happening, right, So it's obvious every
Speaker 1: network just show Christmas around Christmas time or whatever, but
Speaker 1: that it was happening sort of within the calendar year,
Speaker 1: and that you chose to keep the form and the
Speaker 1: format of each episode is one day. It takes place
Speaker 1: over one day, and in the summer, the camera crew
Speaker 1: goes on their holiday and their vacation and they're not there,
Speaker 1: so we don't see it as opposed to Ross and
Speaker 1: Rachel kissing and then four months passing and the next
Speaker 1: moment is the same moment that we left with, because
Speaker 1: the audience now has to work and find out what happened.
Speaker 1: What happened? Right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think
Speaker 1: that that was um, you know that that works well. Uh,
Speaker 1: I mean obviously Friends did good too, Oh I know,
Speaker 1: but that was a conscious decision for you that it
Speaker 1: was important that it seemed real. And again also like
Speaker 1: if you're going to try and stay in the pace,
Speaker 1: you got to catch up over the summer somehow. I
Speaker 1: mean we did it with weight loss. We we did
Speaker 1: a different type thing, yes, but yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean it helped with the storytelling to jump a
Speaker 1: little bit, because the other thing is like, with the
Speaker 1: Office being so realistic, sometimes it is hard to do
Speaker 1: a restart or to jump and you sometimes you have
Speaker 1: to shoot down ideas because you're like, well, how did
Speaker 1: they get there from yesterday? So sometimes a little uh
Speaker 1: time jump is really good for that, right, why did
Speaker 1: you come back? Well, two questions and two questions one. Um,
Speaker 1: the Office has a beginning, a middle, and an end,
Speaker 1: and it was my belief that you knew fairly early
Speaker 1: what that end was going to be. Well, it did
Speaker 1: shift though, because like my idea for the end in
Speaker 1: the beginning was like around season two, I had this
Speaker 1: idea that you know, I was a big fan first
Speaker 1: of all, I love documentaries and I was a big
Speaker 1: fan of seven Up. If you remember that one, well
Speaker 1: seven Up changes every seven years. It was fourteen up up.
Speaker 1: And what it is is they are following a group
Speaker 1: of British seven year olds. This is guy Michael Appted
Speaker 1: and and he's been doing it. They just did like
Speaker 1: sixty nine up or something. Okay, that's that's how old
Speaker 1: the segmentary is. They're following these guys for every stage
Speaker 1: of their life. And um, I think that is like
Speaker 1: a reality show thing too, of like, oh, it's Survivor
Speaker 1: Survivors over and let's get them together on a stage
Speaker 1: and see what happened. And I thought, well, this is cool, right,
Speaker 1: we could get them together on a stage and you
Speaker 1: think that it didn't work out for certain things that
Speaker 1: you want, but the documentary is still filming. Things are
Speaker 1: going to happen backstage at the wrap up. That was
Speaker 1: kind of my notion was that I would provide an
Speaker 1: unhappy ending for Jim and Pam in the last episode
Speaker 1: that looked like the series, and then I would do
Speaker 1: the wrap up and I'd have a happy ending at
Speaker 1: the wrap up something like that. Anyway, this is the
Speaker 1: obviously five seven years out, So this is just a thought.
Speaker 1: So then the idea of a wedding also is a
Speaker 1: good one because it attracts people back. So I mean,
Speaker 1: I think the idea was, let's jump a year, you know,
Speaker 1: like if you jump a year, you can really find
Speaker 1: out what happened everybody in more of a rappie up way.
Speaker 1: And then we're like, well, let's do both, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, And it made sense kind of like
Speaker 1: the if I was the documentary crew and I knew
Speaker 1: Dwight was getting married, that's when I would do my
Speaker 1: reunion show because everybody's coming in for the wedding, because
Speaker 1: otherwise I don't think I can get everybody, like I
Speaker 1: can't get Toby to come back from wherever he was
Speaker 1: Poland And were you were you ready for the show
Speaker 1: to end that season nine? I mean, for for me personally,
Speaker 1: this was the most wonderful, you know, experience in all aspects.
Speaker 1: It was like creatively super interesting, It was successful. It
Speaker 1: had a great story in the sense that it didn't
Speaker 1: look like it was going to be successful and then
Speaker 1: it turned out to be successful, which is obviously the
Speaker 1: best kind of story. And also it was me being
Speaker 1: kind of daring a little bit like to take on
Speaker 1: doing the remake was a little bit fraught with danger,
Speaker 1: so I did something a little bold, you know. And
Speaker 1: it was also like there hadn't been shows like this really,
Speaker 1: so it was a little bit artistically bold. I don't know.
Speaker 1: It was a great story, obviously, and I really loved
Speaker 1: the whole experience, and everybody was so much of family
Speaker 1: by the time, and part of it was the fact
Speaker 1: we were in this weird little lot all by ourselves
Speaker 1: and we had every meal together, you know, and it
Speaker 1: wasn't that show busy. So it was a tremendous, tremendously
Speaker 1: wonderful experience. So when definitely what I knew was I
Speaker 1: wanted to be there to do it at the end.
Speaker 1: And I also realized how much more pleasurable it is
Speaker 1: to be the show runner than to be an executive
Speaker 1: producer who gives notes that sometimes they're taken and sometimes sorry,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not as much fun, uh of an experience,
Speaker 1: And there is something very personal about show. I mean,
Speaker 1: part of it is the whole docu thing, the realism
Speaker 1: and the people and the truth and beauty and all
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff like that was everything I felt
Speaker 1: was important about writing for TV, and it all was
Speaker 1: able to happen in that show. So after the show
Speaker 1: was over, I was pretty spent, do you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? I was like, well, I did it. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm done. I don't know if I need anything else,
Speaker 1: you know, And so yeah, so it kind of felt like,
Speaker 1: when you're gonna get this opportunity, let's see what a
Speaker 1: great ending is, you know. So I guess maybe I
Speaker 1: like the idea of of that. I do think it
Speaker 1: plays well now when you look at Netflix, like, I
Speaker 1: think the fact that it hasn't ending is a positively.
Speaker 1: I think people like it that has an ending and
Speaker 1: then you can start up up again if you want it. Ye,
Speaker 1: last year, The Office was the number one show on Netflix,
Speaker 1: streamed over fifty two billion minutes. Why do you think
Speaker 1: that it has endured? Mm hmm, Well, I mean we
Speaker 1: did put a lot of good work into it. You know.
Speaker 1: I think there was a lot of talented people assembled
Speaker 1: for that show. It was kind of a dream team.
Speaker 1: And I think that the approach that we took to
Speaker 1: value character, comedy, and behavior as opposed to jokes, Like
Speaker 1: jokes kind of don't last that long, but you fall
Speaker 1: in love with the characters, and you you always have
Speaker 1: something to see like and the stuff. The work that
Speaker 1: you guys did also gave so much rewatchability to it,
Speaker 1: you know, because you could follow the sorry, but you
Speaker 1: guys were constantly acting in all moments, Like you can
Speaker 1: watch the entire show looking at one character and it's
Speaker 1: interesting because they're doing their thing, they're being in character,
Speaker 1: and they're working the way and being funny in the background.
Speaker 1: I think the layers maybe help the rewatching. And I
Speaker 1: think that the voice of the show is a very
Speaker 1: humanistic voice too, you know. If there's a message or
Speaker 1: something that that was maybe in the finale just about
Speaker 1: the importance of just decency and ordinary lives are worthy of,
Speaker 1: you know, being on TV. I don't know. That's all
Speaker 1: good stuff. Yeah, it's it's occurring to me truly that
Speaker 1: I think about who the show appeals to now, and
Speaker 1: it's so often it's young people and even younger and
Speaker 1: people who are potentially marginalized or they don't quite fit
Speaker 1: in this awkward teenage years or high school college. And
Speaker 1: the show appreciates people of all shapes and sizes, and
Speaker 1: but it does it in a funny way which young
Speaker 1: people like too, yeah, you know, yeah, everybody gets to
Speaker 1: the pluses and minuses. It's not like where anybody's excluded.
Speaker 1: It's a pretty inclusive show, yeah, which I think is great.
Speaker 1: And uh, the other thing about kids, like, I didn't
Speaker 1: understand why it would be appeal to kids because a
Speaker 1: lot of people were like, well, you know, it's the workplace, right,
Speaker 1: what do kids know about the workplace? But it's actually
Speaker 1: really similar to the experience of being a kid in school,
Speaker 1: because you know your teacher is your boss, and you're
Speaker 1: sitting at your little desk next to somebody else, so
Speaker 1: you may or may not like you know, and you're
Speaker 1: compelled to listen to whatever or ring crap. You know
Speaker 1: it's coming down there, down from above. So I think
Speaker 1: they relate to it from that standpoint. I also think,
Speaker 1: I wonder what you think that I think the show
Speaker 1: is subversive in a way. It's looking at issues or
Speaker 1: race or the brilliant gay witch hunt episode that you wrote,
Speaker 1: and it's looking at things in a subversive way, which
Speaker 1: I feel like the older you get is less appealing.
Speaker 1: But that sort of young idea of doing something a
Speaker 1: little bit under the radar, and that it's become cool.
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's tough. You know, it's hard to
Speaker 1: talk about what you're doing. I think that there's something
Speaker 1: um that always makes me worried when you talk about
Speaker 1: comedy or whatever. At some point you start to be like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to lose the ability to do it.
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about it too much. Interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's that power ruble of the centipede. I think it
Speaker 1: is where they have hundreds of legs and when the
Speaker 1: centipede tried to think about how it was that his
Speaker 1: legs all worked properly, they all got taggled up, but
Speaker 1: he couldn't he couldn't walk. I don't know. What do
Speaker 1: you think the legacy of the Office is? Well? I
Speaker 1: do think that it did. Like that thing that I
Speaker 1: was saying about, maybe if we go to NBC will
Speaker 1: change the boat of comedy. I think it did. You
Speaker 1: know that seems like a lot of the shows that
Speaker 1: came after are, if not completely doc you definitely have
Speaker 1: that style. And the people went on to do a
Speaker 1: lot of great things, and I loved it all this
Speaker 1: new people like the show so much. We used to
Speaker 1: have a lot of visitors from different make a wish
Speaker 1: type things, and I always thought that was indicative of something,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like people with all these
Speaker 1: health problems would get at so much solace out of
Speaker 1: the show. And I always was proud of that, but
Speaker 1: I didn't really know what what what what it was.
Speaker 1: But it seems like it's a it was a valuable
Speaker 1: thing to have made. We did a good job making it.
Speaker 1: People like it and it provides something good for them.
Speaker 1: I was at a children's hospital last year and um,
Speaker 1: we were going room to room and one of the
Speaker 1: administrators would go to the next room and make sure
Speaker 1: that the kid was able to be seen and we
Speaker 1: could still kind of go on our little tour. And
Speaker 1: she came back and she said, so, he doesn't know
Speaker 1: that you're coming. And I turned the corner and I
Speaker 1: walked into his room and he's got tubes everywhere and
Speaker 1: he's watching The Office Hiss TV. And it like took
Speaker 1: my breath away. That's something that we've created. It can
Speaker 1: really mean something to people and give them comfort or
Speaker 1: a laugh in a moment month that they have a
Speaker 1: difficult time. That's something valuable. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely
Speaker 1: agree with that. That is nice. I mean you guys
Speaker 1: in the cast feel it more than I do because
Speaker 1: I walk around and doesn't come up all the time,
Speaker 1: but like if I walk around with Paul, it comes
Speaker 1: up all the time. Like like I was just walking
Speaker 1: down the street with Paul the other day and I
Speaker 1: hear the squeal of you know, breaks and somebody you
Speaker 1: know just turned his car around and did a you
Speaker 1: turn because he saw Paul out of the corner of
Speaker 1: his eye and you know, jumped out to tell him
Speaker 1: how much the show meant to him and everything. It's
Speaker 1: it's it's crazy. It is way bigger now than it
Speaker 1: was when it was on Thursday. Interesting, I knew it
Speaker 1: was big now, but I didn't know it was felt bigger.
Speaker 1: But you know, like sometimes I feel almost bad that
Speaker 1: you guys are walking around and unable to escape it
Speaker 1: for the slightest second, you know. I mean, I'd never
Speaker 1: have wanted to be an actor, so maybe this is
Speaker 1: just maybe it's fun, But it's a heavy. It's a
Speaker 1: heavy thing in a way, right because it's like, oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very very constant, and and it's television and it's
Speaker 1: special and they're watching it as they lay in bed
Speaker 1: or there in their box or shorts or you know
Speaker 1: there and their underwear and they're watching you and they
Speaker 1: think they know you, you're intimate with them, And I
Speaker 1: wonder also, like to what extent um, you know, the
Speaker 1: changes in the TV business have changed things, because like
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like there will be a lot of
Speaker 1: two episode shows made in the future, and the amount
Speaker 1: and that stuff, the sausage thing that I was talking
Speaker 1: about before, Like when I turn on the show, there's
Speaker 1: bits and jokes and like, like there's so many with
Speaker 1: two episodes, plus all the subplots and all the like
Speaker 1: cold opens and the little side. There's really a lot
Speaker 1: of ideas packed into that, you know, into the show
Speaker 1: and all the stuff happening in the background and performances. Yeah. Right,
Speaker 1: I think it's it's worth me saying to you the
Speaker 1: degree to what I mean, you are a director, you're
Speaker 1: an actor, Fern, you played Fern in the office. You're
Speaker 1: fantastic performance um. But you the degree to which you
Speaker 1: made decisions from the beginning and are so purposeful in
Speaker 1: terms of actors is amazing. The idea that you wanted
Speaker 1: reality and that behavior was so important for you on
Speaker 1: this shows. It's really good for actors. Yeah, well thanks
Speaker 1: for saying that. Yeah, no, I um, I do love
Speaker 1: that part of it, and and maybe part of it
Speaker 1: is just that it's not my part. Right if I'm
Speaker 1: writing a script, it's hard to say. And now he
Speaker 1: touched his head in a very you know, important way
Speaker 1: or whatever, you can't really put that in the script.
Speaker 1: So it's always really fun to see other people adding
Speaker 1: all this creativity because you you've gotten you know, you've
Speaker 1: gotten it too as far as you can get it,
Speaker 1: and then you hand it over and then you just
Speaker 1: like marveling at the people that run with it. And
Speaker 1: then I guess that's sort of improv because like I
Speaker 1: think part of the yes and spirit of improv and
Speaker 1: the team aspect of improv is you take something and
Speaker 1: you add to it. You don't contradict it, you kind
Speaker 1: of elaborate on it. And like in the Halloween episode,
Speaker 1: I had written a whole scene between Dwight and Michael.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember this, but there's a
Speaker 1: scene where Dwight comes in and is agitating for Michael
Speaker 1: to get rid of Jim or somebody. Yes, He's like
Speaker 1: he's like a sith lord and Michael's got another head
Speaker 1: on it and just just at the very end, it
Speaker 1: was like no, no no, no long scene. At the very end,
Speaker 1: I had some like notion of Michael talking to his
Speaker 1: head about Dwight in his presence, and they just ran
Speaker 1: with that and we didn't end up using anything that
Speaker 1: was written in the scene. We like started the scene
Speaker 1: two lines after their improv began, you know, And it
Speaker 1: was so good. It was such a joy to watch
Speaker 1: that the run with this notion. But like, when you
Speaker 1: think about it, improv is this mix of writing and acting,
Speaker 1: and it's more well known. I think that actors will
Speaker 1: do that, right, They'll they'll be in the moment, they'll
Speaker 1: be in their characters and they'll make up what they
Speaker 1: have to say. But it's the same process mentally that
Speaker 1: we're doing in the writer's room, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: We're we're thinking of what to say and then we're
Speaker 1: pretending really hard to be the actor in the situation
Speaker 1: in order to see what comes. What's the next line?
Speaker 1: You know, what can you think about? So we're sort
Speaker 1: of coming out from two two angles. I guess, right,
Speaker 1: what are you most thankful for? Well, I'm really thankful
Speaker 1: obviously to have had the experience, like I said after
Speaker 1: every season, because it was exactly what I wanted from
Speaker 1: an artistic point of view, you know, just the kind
Speaker 1: of stuff I like. And to be able to have
Speaker 1: so many people with me on the ride who were
Speaker 1: so much fun, and that we managed to do it
Speaker 1: and still like each other is pretty cool. I don't know,
Speaker 1: it was just the best experience. Well, Greg, you changed
Speaker 1: my life, and you change the lives of every single
Speaker 1: person you invited to join you on this journey, and
Speaker 1: we're stuck with each other. Now, that was what I
Speaker 1: was going to say, were ghost ship totally? Do you
Speaker 1: remember going to the TV Land Awards that was? That
Speaker 1: was so crazy? Yes, I'm not. I have an R
Speaker 1: s v P. At least for the next decade. I'm
Speaker 1: going to stay away. But has anyone told the story
Speaker 1: of that? No? I don't think so. Yeah, you should
Speaker 1: tell we wont This was odd. The Office was still
Speaker 1: on the air and we won the award for Future
Speaker 1: Classic Television Show and Greg, you were there with me, yes,
Speaker 1: And they had an opening number where I think it
Speaker 1: was Vanessa Williams maybe it was singing, and she was
Speaker 1: singing a song about all the different characters on different
Speaker 1: TV shows, and it started off pretty respectfully with you know,
Speaker 1: like the guy that played Greg Brady or something. I
Speaker 1: forget that, but she would say the person's character name
Speaker 1: and their or their actual name, and then that person
Speaker 1: would slide in on a hook on a hook over
Speaker 1: the auto of the audience zip lining in yeah, and
Speaker 1: if it started off kind of cool and people are like, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: and then she then she stopped using the the actual
Speaker 1: actor's names, had just said the character's names, and it
Speaker 1: was like horse shack and you'd slide in, and then
Speaker 1: the people started banging into each other, like slabs of
Speaker 1: beef in the slaughterhouse. And then then she started uh,
Speaker 1: and then she didn't even know the character's names. Was
Speaker 1: like the guy from the Great American Hero and he'd
Speaker 1: slide in and bang into the other people, and they
Speaker 1: were like on these hooks about the audience. And I
Speaker 1: looked at you guys, and you're all looking up and
Speaker 1: like oh go oh yeah, well yeah, we're we're all
Speaker 1: stuck together, and it's it's uh, we'll see what what
Speaker 1: happens in the future brings y um. Well, eventually they'll
Speaker 1: turn on us. We can't be this successful. Where it's popular,
Speaker 1: something will turn they'll be like, oh that generation Z
Speaker 1: office love that was everybody. Yeah, um, thank you. I
Speaker 1: mean we covered so much, you were here so long.
Speaker 1: I'm so thankful, super fun. I just would have been
Speaker 1: you know, even if they weren't recording, it would have
Speaker 1: been nice to have the conversation over a coffee with you.
Speaker 1: You know, I honestly couldn't think of a better man
Speaker 1: to be stuck with. Thank you, Greg for coming on
Speaker 1: and and for sharing so much with all of us.
Speaker 1: And I couldn't possibly end this episode without giving thanks
Speaker 1: to you, every single one of my listeners that has
Speaker 1: been with me every step of the way on this
Speaker 1: wild ride. I appreciate you so much, and I hope
Speaker 1: that we have brought just a small fraction of the
Speaker 1: joy into your lives that you've brought into ours. So
Speaker 1: please go out there, hug your friends, hug your family,
Speaker 1: and remember the lesson that Greg has burned into all
Speaker 1: of our minds by now that each and every one
Speaker 1: of us weird human beings, is deserving of love, and
Speaker 1: there's always beauty in ordinary things. And since I believe
Speaker 1: we're all deserving of love, I would like to remind
Speaker 1: you about our call in episodes where I will be
Speaker 1: showing you guys all of the love. So be sure
Speaker 1: to send me those voice memos that you can record
Speaker 1: on the voice Memo app on your phone. Email me
Speaker 1: at the Office deep Dive at gmail dot com with
Speaker 1: your questions, your comments, special requests, stories, take out orders, whatever,
Speaker 1: Leave your name, your phone number, where you're from, and
Speaker 1: then anything else you want to tell me. I'm so
Speaker 1: excited to hear what you have to say. Oh and
Speaker 1: of course don't forget to tune in next week because
Speaker 1: we have a really fun episode coming up. I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna lie. I'm going back to Scranton where it all started,
Speaker 1: and you are coming with me. Happy Thanksgiving everyone. The
Speaker 1: Office Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me
Speaker 1: Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer, Lang Lee. Our senior
Speaker 1: producer is Tessa Kramer. Our producers are Liz Hayes and
Speaker 1: Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore.
Speaker 1: Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great
Speaker 1: friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandski.
Speaker 1: Would you say your Name? And your role on the Office. Okay, um,
Speaker 1: my name is Greg Daniels and I was the adapter
Speaker 1: and showrunner for most of the Office. How about that.
Speaker 1: I mean, that is such a long identifier that will
Speaker 1: never play that. I'm Fred, I'm ver Hi, I'm Greg Daniels.
Speaker 1: I was the showrunner of the Office. Well, thank you,
Speaker 1: my friend. Now you're directing me. Oh yes, shoes on
Speaker 1: the other foot. Oh my gosh.