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Speaker 1: Hey friends, Christen here with a quick correction. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: I share a story about a girlfriend of mine who

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Speaker 1: got harassed in an uber. But in this episode I

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Speaker 1: say it was a lift, but in fact I fact

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Speaker 1: checked the story with my friend and she said it

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Speaker 1: was in fact an uber, not a lift. And the

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Speaker 1: quote it was intense, but I got two weeks of

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Speaker 1: half off rides, so worth it. Dot dot dot sad

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Speaker 1: face emoji. Now onto the show. Welcome to stuff Mom

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Speaker 1: Never told you From how stupports dot com. Hello and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and

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Speaker 1: today we are talking about Uber, Lift, past Grabbit, Instacart,

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Speaker 1: et cetera, all of these new app based companies that

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Speaker 1: comprise the sharing or gig economy as it's also known as. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I gotta say I love a lot of these apps.

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Speaker 1: They make life easier. I use instacrt like once a week,

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Speaker 1: probably um because who has to have to go to

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Speaker 1: the grocery store. This episode is not brought to you

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Speaker 1: by any of these companies, I assure you, but I

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Speaker 1: am curious has it replaced your grocery shopping? For the

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Speaker 1: last part, my husband is currently obsessed with Uber Eats,

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Speaker 1: which means we are not grocery shopping as much as

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Speaker 1: we should be. Yeah. Well, so I've been sick and

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Speaker 1: my boyfriend has been away working, and so there's been

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Speaker 1: really no incentive for me to like cook a big

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Speaker 1: dinner because I just don't have the appetite for it.

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Speaker 1: So I've been using uber eats, and I gotta tell you,

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Speaker 1: I was actually disappointed because not in uber eats. But

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Speaker 1: I pulled up my Caviare app the other night, which

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Speaker 1: is another meal delivery service. They'll pick it up from

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Speaker 1: a restaurant. They are no longer in Atlanta. Really, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I guess I have to delete Caviare from my phone. Um,

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Speaker 1: but I definitely have been relying on Uber eats an

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Speaker 1: insta cart quite a bit. I actually met my Instacrt

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Speaker 1: driver at the door the other day, said thank you

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Speaker 1: so much. You don't realize how much you're saving a

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Speaker 1: really sick person as she hands me bags of chicken

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Speaker 1: noodle soup, thailan all colden sinus saltine crackers. Well, this

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Speaker 1: reminds me too of a Women in Tech breakfast that

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Speaker 1: I went to a while back, where this panel was

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Speaker 1: going around giving their just go to advice for essentially

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Speaker 1: making your life easier if you're an ambitious woman in

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Speaker 1: tech or really anywhere, and one of the oldest women

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Speaker 1: on the panel who also has kids, who is h

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Speaker 1: v i P in her sector, set outsource everything that

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Speaker 1: you can, and a lot of that relies on the

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Speaker 1: sharing economy. I was actually talking to a girlfriend last

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Speaker 1: night who is working in a really demanding job and

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Speaker 1: she has started outsourcing her house cleaning via it's not

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Speaker 1: task grab it, but it's something similar. It might be

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Speaker 1: through handy um. And she talked about how it's so

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Speaker 1: worth the money because of just the any cleaning related

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Speaker 1: tension that might be in the house between her and

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Speaker 1: her husband. It's just taken care of now. Side note

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Speaker 1: for your friend, she is brilliant because this is something

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Speaker 1: I've literally discussed in therapy, and my therapist has encouraged

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Speaker 1: my boyfriend and me, who lived together, um too ethically

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Speaker 1: higher uh professional or some type of contractor to come

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Speaker 1: in and clean at least once a month. And of course,

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Speaker 1: like we don't necessarily have the time or the money,

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Speaker 1: and I also have that guilt of like I've at

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Speaker 1: least got to pick the house up first. I feel

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Speaker 1: the same way because the thing is and and and

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Speaker 1: boyfriend dog, you know, with with him being in the

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Speaker 1: studio and me having been sick and whatever, like, we

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Speaker 1: haven't been able to clean the house and it both

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Speaker 1: stresses us out to the max. But the thing is,

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Speaker 1: we still just have so much stuff on the floor.

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Speaker 1: So he was like, you know, while you're not feeling

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Speaker 1: well and I'm at work, like, why don't we use

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Speaker 1: one of those apps to like have someone come over

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Speaker 1: and clean. And I was like, I'm not having a

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Speaker 1: stranger come in this house to pick up when there's

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Speaker 1: so much on the floor that they can't even like

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Speaker 1: start the vacuum right, Like I at least need to

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Speaker 1: put some crap in the attic before I have somebody

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Speaker 1: come over. But then I also have the fear of

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Speaker 1: all of these horror stories I've heard about, like the

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Speaker 1: handyman or cleaner comes over and like extorts you for

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Speaker 1: money or like won't leave. I used I won't tell

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Speaker 1: you the app. I don't want to upset anyone. Um,

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Speaker 1: I used one of those apps to have a handyman

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Speaker 1: come over. I needed the driveway and the backpack, I

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Speaker 1: needed like everything around my house pressure washed because we

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Speaker 1: have all sorts of gross stuff everywhere on the driveway.

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Speaker 1: And uh bless his heart that God did not know

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Speaker 1: how to use the pressure washer. I had to go out.

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Speaker 1: I wasted like two hours that day like helping him

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Speaker 1: run the pressure washer. So I wasted a lot of

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Speaker 1: time and money. And so I don't think I will ever.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I'll ever use like one of those

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Speaker 1: handyman apps again, but potentially a house cleaner I would.

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Speaker 1: So the how these apps and the sharing economy can

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Speaker 1: backfire both on the user and the employee is going

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Speaker 1: to be the focus of this conversation UM. And beyond

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Speaker 1: the potential of people who are not qualified being hired

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Speaker 1: to do these jobs, there is a physical risk factor

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Speaker 1: that UM is becoming more and more of a concern

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Speaker 1: a topic of conversation. For instance, when I was in

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Speaker 1: New Yorker couple weeks ago, I was at a girlfriend's

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Speaker 1: apartment and talking about heading back to the airport, and

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Speaker 1: I was saying that I always use lift. I prefer

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Speaker 1: them that drivers get a larger cut um than they

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Speaker 1: do through Uber, so I try to support them with

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Speaker 1: that and usually they're cheaper. And she said, oh, yeah, Well,

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Speaker 1: I I can ride for free on left for a

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Speaker 1: really long time. And I asked why, of course, and

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Speaker 1: she said, well, um, ever since a driver locked me

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Speaker 1: in the car and wouldn't let me out until I

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Speaker 1: gave him my phone number, they're giving me free rides

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Speaker 1: left and right. And I'm not saying this to try

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Speaker 1: to implicate lift in any way, shape or form um,

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Speaker 1: but she also said it so casually and so excitedly

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Speaker 1: of like, oh yeah, I get to ride around for free.

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Speaker 1: This is kind of amazing. But I was like, wait,

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Speaker 1: let's go, let's go back. Uh was that not terrifying?

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Speaker 1: And She's like, oh yeah, oh yeah. She's also very

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Speaker 1: tough though, you know, she's like she's got that you know,

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Speaker 1: New York tough thing. And I was trying to kind

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Speaker 1: of play it off, but yeah, there's the there's there's

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Speaker 1: also the risk involved with the sharing economy, and also too,

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Speaker 1: that's one reason why we're seeing not only in the

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Speaker 1: US but abroad the rise of women only taxi companies. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think all the time about

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Speaker 1: also being in New York a couple of months ago

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Speaker 1: and getting into the front seat of an uber just wasted. Um,

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Speaker 1: we might have gone out for drinks with some listeners.

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Speaker 1: Those listeners might have been incredibly generous with buying us drinks.

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Speaker 1: In anyway, you guys gotta be wasted. And I get

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Speaker 1: in this Uber and I'm like arguing in a good

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Speaker 1: natured way. The driver was very nice, but I'm like

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Speaker 1: arguing with him about Beyonce's feminism because he was like

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Speaker 1: basically the whole line of like Beyonce can't be a

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Speaker 1: feminist because she doesn't wear pants, and like she's she's

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Speaker 1: a disgrace to women in pop You should listen to

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Speaker 1: Adele instead. Nothing against Adele, but I like think back

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Speaker 1: to that and it's like anything could happen, you know,

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Speaker 1: And I mean that's true of life in general, and

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Speaker 1: true of traditional cab drivers. Yeah, but like there is

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Speaker 1: that that thing of like, hey, you are just trusting

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Speaker 1: that this person will get you to your destination safely,

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Speaker 1: not touch you or do anything to harm or intimidate you,

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Speaker 1: and then unlock the car and let you out when

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Speaker 1: you get to your destination. Well, and that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: There are obviously those very real and legitimate safety concerns

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Speaker 1: that these companies like Uber, Left, etcetera. Are needing to

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Speaker 1: be more accountable too. But then also there is on

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Speaker 1: the back end of it the concern for how equitable

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Speaker 1: these situations are for the people who are taking these gigs.

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Speaker 1: Who are you know, doing these side hustles or they

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Speaker 1: might be there a hustles because the sharing economy has

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Speaker 1: grown so much and it's worth so much that there's

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Speaker 1: the risk that I mean even at this point, we're

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Speaker 1: trying to gigify so much that we are not doing

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Speaker 1: it in a very ethical way. So just to put

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Speaker 1: some numbers though around why uh this is so bright

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Speaker 1: and shiny for Silicon Valley investors. So according to data

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Speaker 1: from Price Waterhouse Coopers, UH, the sharing economy global revenue

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Speaker 1: could grow from roughly fifteen billion today to three billion.

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Speaker 1: That is not so Obviously we got a gold mine

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Speaker 1: and people are russian to grab as much of it

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Speaker 1: as they can, and they're very popular. We just talked

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Speaker 1: about all of these apps and outsourcing that we're doing

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Speaker 1: for our day to day lives. The Pure Research Center

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Speaker 1: in sixteen found that seven new two percent of Americans

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Speaker 1: have used a shared or on demand service. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I mean when you look at the breakdown of who

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Speaker 1: the workers are, a lot of them, most of them

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Speaker 1: are between eighteen and thirty four versus just a third

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Speaker 1: of the general workforce being between eighteen and thirty four.

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Speaker 1: The majority probably because of their age and our generation

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Speaker 1: tends to have more college degrees. The majority of the

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Speaker 1: gig economy workers do have at least some college experience,

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Speaker 1: and most use their gig as a supplementary income, not

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Speaker 1: as their main income. And they're also way likelier to

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Speaker 1: be male, especially if they are an Uber driver. Um.

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Speaker 1: Just n of Uber drivers or women versus Lift, which

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Speaker 1: maybe this is why I'm so into Lift even after

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Speaker 1: my friends horror story. Lift uh employees female drivers and

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Speaker 1: also has a lot more female passengers like myself, and

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Speaker 1: also employs a leadership team that's half women. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: thought that was interesting too. Yeah I, um, I might

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Speaker 1: be using Lift more often now anyway. Um. There's also

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Speaker 1: the the interesting gender breakdown that economists have commented on

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Speaker 1: that men are more likely to do the higher paid

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Speaker 1: gig economy work like being a handyman, like driving for

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Speaker 1: Uber doing all of this stuff, versus women who tend

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Speaker 1: to and of course this is all broad brush stuff,

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Speaker 1: but tend to do more house cleaning work, more of

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Speaker 1: the light work quote unquote work on Etsy. Etsy is

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Speaker 1: of course largely women. It's something like what like six

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Speaker 1: percent women. That is exactly the percent. I just I

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Speaker 1: literally pulled that out of my head. Um, maybe because

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Speaker 1: I read it last night. Um. And of course to that,

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Speaker 1: Etsy says, Listen, not everybody's goal is to make a

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Speaker 1: million dollars working in this gig economy. But I do

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Speaker 1: think that that's important to keep kind of in the

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Speaker 1: back of your mind when you're looking at who's employed

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Speaker 1: doing what work, and you know, without any sort of

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Speaker 1: health insurance or benefits. And on the flip side of that,

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Speaker 1: if we look at the users, they tend to be younger,

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Speaker 1: no surprise, we tend to have college degrees, but might

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Speaker 1: be on a financially shaky ground. I know that one

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Speaker 1: reason why myself and a lot of my friends use

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Speaker 1: uber and lyft is because it's so much cheaper than

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Speaker 1: getting a cab. And also we're paying for d U

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Speaker 1: I well, exactly well, and also we live in Atlanta

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Speaker 1: and unless you are at the airport, cabs kind of

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Speaker 1: don't exist around here. Um. So that brings up this

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Speaker 1: socio economic divide that pure research also highlighted yeah. So

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Speaker 1: you know, we mentioned a second ago that oh my god,

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Speaker 1: so many Americans use ride sharing, use food delivery, use

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Speaker 1: all of these sharing economy apps. But Pew found that

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Speaker 1: just ten percent of people who live in homes with

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Speaker 1: earnings below thirty thousand dollars have booked trips with ride

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Speaker 1: hailing companies, for instance, and nearly fifty of these people

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Speaker 1: aren't familiar with them at all. And when you move

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Speaker 1: from ride sharing to a platform like Airbnb, only four

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Speaker 1: percent of Americans at that earning point have used those

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Speaker 1: home sharing or home rental platforms, while sixty percent of

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Speaker 1: people with earnings below thirty thousand as their whole household

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Speaker 1: number don't even know about them at all. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean all this stuff is to me like very

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Speaker 1: much a luxury. I mean it's it's not You're not

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Speaker 1: spending a ton of money necessarily at one time, unless

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Speaker 1: we go real bonkers on uber reads, which ha happened before.

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Speaker 1: But I mean it's still like going out and getting

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Speaker 1: a manicure rather than painting your nails at home, you know,

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Speaker 1: exactly exactly. And if you are pinching every penny, counting

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Speaker 1: every dollar, like, you're not gonna want to pay the

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Speaker 1: whatever seven nine insta cart fee to get your groceries

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Speaker 1: delivered within the very next hour, which I do a

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Speaker 1: lot actually because I want my chicken little soup. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, and I'm I'm I'm saying this

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Speaker 1: in jest, because of course that's an incredibly privileged thing

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Speaker 1: to be able to say, to not only be aware

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Speaker 1: of the app and use the app, but also pay

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Speaker 1: the extra money to get it delivered as fast as possible. Absolutely. Um.

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Speaker 1: But there was also this issue of inclusivity, and here's

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Speaker 1: kind of the twisted things. So there's this paper that

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Speaker 1: came from Business for Social Responsibility that was really pointing

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Speaker 1: to inclusivity as a major benefit for both share economy

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Speaker 1: workers and customers, and one of their consultants said, quote,

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Speaker 1: the sharing economy offers a way for people to act

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Speaker 1: more independently and to democratize things. Okay, I can see

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Speaker 1: how you would come to that conclusion. Uh, it is

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Speaker 1: a more human business model than the old economy with

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Speaker 1: corporations and customers. And you know what, ideally, yes, absolutely, um,

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Speaker 1: they're also benefits for the companies when you have more

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Speaker 1: people who can participate in the sharing economy. Companies are

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Speaker 1: going to benefit from untapped revenue i e. User acquisition,

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Speaker 1: and a more intentional focus on inclusion could strengthen companies

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Speaker 1: contributions to communities and build trust with governments seeking to

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Speaker 1: regulate them. So this all sounds so great, It sounds

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Speaker 1: so great, so great, um, and you know there is

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Speaker 1: a benefit. There can be a really great benefit for

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Speaker 1: marginalized or underserved communities when you have things like ride

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Speaker 1: sharing apps, and that inclusivity could help connect people to

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Speaker 1: goods and services that maybe are out of reach otherwise.

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Speaker 1: You know, it could uh dismantle some of those barriers

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Speaker 1: that people face to ownership. For instance, if they're able

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Speaker 1: to like use zip car, where they can you know,

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Speaker 1: share a car essentially to get from their you know,

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Speaker 1: train station to wherever they're going. Um. There was a

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Speaker 1: New York University study on the sharing economy impact that

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Speaker 1: was based on data from get Around, which is a

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Speaker 1: car sharing service kind of like a zip car. UM.

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Speaker 1: They found that ride sharing had a disproportionately positive effect

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Speaker 1: on lower income consumers because ownership is a barrier to consumption.

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Speaker 1: So if people are allowed and able to consume, that's

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Speaker 1: a boon to companies who are trying to make money,

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Speaker 1: but it's also a boon for people in communities who

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Speaker 1: are just trying to get places. Uber did a study

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Speaker 1: in l A and they found that their uber x

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Speaker 1: rides are available in twenty one low income neighborhoods at

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Speaker 1: a lower price than taxis, and that they arrive in

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Speaker 1: less than half the time. And there have been other

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Speaker 1: studies that have shown that telephone dispatch taxi services in

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Speaker 1: poor urban neighborhoods, for instance, are consistently slower and less

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Speaker 1: reliable than taxi services and wealthier communities. And I remember,

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Speaker 1: I mean this was before Uber and left, but I

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Speaker 1: remember being at a birthday party years ago now and

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Speaker 1: everybody was just so drunk and um, we literally tried

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Speaker 1: to call a cab, but it just we kept getting

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Speaker 1: a busy signal, busy signal. When we finally got through,

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Speaker 1: they were like, yeah, it's gonna be about two hours. Um,

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Speaker 1: it was already like one in the morning. Uh. So

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Speaker 1: our friend who had just had and we were like downtown,

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Speaker 1: Uh in Augusta. And our friend who has mistake there

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Speaker 1: no kidding, uh. And our friend who had just had

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Speaker 1: a lot less to drink than the rest of us

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Speaker 1: but was not sober was the one who like slowly

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Speaker 1: and carefully drove us home. Yeah mean obviously, like these

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Speaker 1: are these are good services, Like we can use these

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Speaker 1: kinds of things their positives. Yeah, and I mean according

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Speaker 1: to a Pew survey, I mean Pews all over this

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Speaker 1: of rides sharing users in general feel that these services

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Speaker 1: are less likely to discriminate against people based on their

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Speaker 1: race or appearance than taxis are. Will come back to

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Speaker 1: that one in a little bit, but I mean this

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Speaker 1: is important because access to transportation. The Brookings Institution found,

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Speaker 1: uh to get to work is correlated with upper mobility.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's that super common sense. There's no surprise there.

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Speaker 1: Being able to get to work on time is hugely

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Speaker 1: correlated with continuing to be employed. But unfortunately, in a

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Speaker 1: lot of metro areas, including Atlanta where you and I are,

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Speaker 1: do not have adequate public transportation options, and only a

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Speaker 1: quarter of low and middle skilled jobs are accessible via

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Speaker 1: public transit that take ninety minutes or less in the

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Speaker 1: largest US metro areas, and low income people are more

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Speaker 1: likely to work during off hours and less likely to

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Speaker 1: have a driver's license. Not to mention, like your shorter

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Speaker 1: communes usually don't happen if you are living in a

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Speaker 1: low income area, right yeah, And I um again, like,

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Speaker 1: I don't mean to make this all about me. I'm

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Speaker 1: just trying to give anecdotal examples that yeah, right, um.

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Speaker 1: But so I was looking at Zillo the other day

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Speaker 1: to see, like, oh, can my boyfriend and I afford

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Speaker 1: to move anytime soon? No? Okay? Cool? So I found

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Speaker 1: an affordable, nice house for rent, like way farther out

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Speaker 1: than where we live now. And I was like, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: I wonder how long it would take me to get

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Speaker 1: to work. And I plugged it in and during a

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Speaker 1: no traffic time in Atlanta, that's pretty rare. But during

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Speaker 1: a time of no traffic, it would take me about

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Speaker 1: twenty five minutes from that house to get to the office,

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Speaker 1: which that's not terrible, especially based on Atlanta times. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, well, I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: want to drive that, Like it's kind of close to

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Speaker 1: a train station at MARTA's the train system here in Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: Let me let me see, according to Google Maps, how

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Speaker 1: long it would take me to get to my job

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Speaker 1: using Atlanta Mass transit over ninety minutes. Oh, I'm not

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Speaker 1: surprised because I would have had to take a bus

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Speaker 1: or walk a long way to the train station first

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Speaker 1: of all, and then take the train all the way down.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't know if it disappears into

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Speaker 1: a wormhole, why is it taking the train so long

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Speaker 1: to get to midten Atlanta. Anyway, take the train all

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Speaker 1: the way to mid Tenantanta and then take another bus

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Speaker 1: to the office. And it's like, I have the luxury

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Speaker 1: of a Honda Fit. I could make that or thirty

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Speaker 1: minute commute from that far out house, you know, in

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Speaker 1: the part of Atlanta that's still affordable, um, but far

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Speaker 1: from everybody has that luxury. Yeah, so a in benefits

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Speaker 1: to the sharing economy, but that is really when all

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Speaker 1: other variables aren't controlled for you know what. I mean

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Speaker 1: that this is the best case scenario situation for this

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Speaker 1: because of course, as we've already mentioned, there are obvious downsides,

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Speaker 1: starting with shrinking workers rights. Yeah, so this is a

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Speaker 1: huge thing that economists have pointed out that labor protections

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Speaker 1: under the Fair Labor Standards Act generally don't apply to

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Speaker 1: these independent contractors. And that's why you should be scared

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Speaker 1: about the numbers that Christens cited at the top of

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Speaker 1: the podcast in terms of like the billions of dollars

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Speaker 1: that the sharing economy is going to be worth by,

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Speaker 1: because that's a lot of money going to people who

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Speaker 1: don't have any legal recourse against abuse, etcetera, etcetera. So

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Speaker 1: um Airbnb, for instance, requires people to wave their right

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Speaker 1: to to or join any class action lawsuit and uh

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Speaker 1: Tom Slee, who's the author of What's Yours Is Mine,

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Speaker 1: told broadly that he sees this general chipping away of

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Speaker 1: protections for people who have fought for those protections tooth

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Speaker 1: and nail, women, people of color, people with disabilities. He said,

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Speaker 1: it's not really fashionable to be in favor of bureaucracy

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Speaker 1: and rules, but equal pay for equal work, minimum wage laws,

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Speaker 1: employment standards that limit employers right to fire at will,

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Speaker 1: and anti discrimination laws were the result of years of

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Speaker 1: struggle by feminists, unionists, and anti racism groups. I don't

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Speaker 1: think they should be thrown away just because a new

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Speaker 1: app has a rating system, and I mean that all

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Speaker 1: rating system thing is something that Polack Shaw with the

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Speaker 1: National Domestic Workers Alliance points out can hold a lot

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Speaker 1: of power over someone's head. Shaw said that that rating

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Speaker 1: system that like every app has can result in workers

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Speaker 1: finishing a job when they don't feel safe just for

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Speaker 1: fear of receiving a poor rating, and there for less

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Speaker 1: work because yeah, I mean, if you do a terrible job,

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Speaker 1: you should get a terrible rating. If you harass a customer,

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Speaker 1: yeah you should get a terrible rating and be fired.

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Speaker 1: But if you are at the home of someone who

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Speaker 1: is a great a jerk, maybe they're harassing you or

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Speaker 1: threatening you or whatever. I mean to to have to

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Speaker 1: feel like you've got to put up with that just

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Speaker 1: to be able to continue to work, because who knows,

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Speaker 1: maybe you haven't been able to get a job in

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Speaker 1: the mainstream economy and this is the way that you

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Speaker 1: have to make money. And companies would say, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: that's why we allow our employees to also write the customers,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't account for the actual situation that that

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Speaker 1: employee might still have to go through in order to

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Speaker 1: get to the point of rating a customer. I mean,

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Speaker 1: uber drivers, lift drivers, etcetera. They can kick people out

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Speaker 1: of their cars and say, you know, I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to deal with this person and it's not going to

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Speaker 1: hurt them, and not as seraly, but Shaw brings up

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Speaker 1: a really important point, especially if you were in someone

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Speaker 1: else's home. I mean, I think the situation is probably

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Speaker 1: different with a ride sharing UH set up because you're

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Speaker 1: in your own car, you know, so you you might

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Speaker 1: have feel like you have a little bit more leverage

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Speaker 1: to not put up with ridiculous people. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: mean I think also, I mean, you're likely if you

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Speaker 1: have to kick out a violent passenger, someone's probably gonna

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Speaker 1: catch that on a on an iPhone. Honestly, Like the

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Speaker 1: the woman who was drunk in that Uber guy's car

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Speaker 1: and started like hitting him and throwing things at him

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Speaker 1: from the backseat, and he was trying to remove her

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Speaker 1: and not like hurt her at the same time, and

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Speaker 1: she was hitting him kicking him. I mean, it was

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Speaker 1: It can be crazy and not the taxi drivers don't

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Speaker 1: put up with that. But there's a lot of abuse

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Speaker 1: that you can take as a worker for some of

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Speaker 1: these gig apps, which is why some people are pushing

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Speaker 1: Uber and others to require drivers to have cameras in

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Speaker 1: their cars, like we're doing with police, both to protect

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Speaker 1: customers and drivers. Um. But it's like, once you get home,

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Speaker 1: your shift is done, Okay, you might have pocketed some cash,

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Speaker 1: probably not as much as advertisements would lead you to

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Speaker 1: believe that you're going to make um. But you're not

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Speaker 1: going to get any benefits on top of that, unless,

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Speaker 1: of course, you are classified as a direct employee of

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Speaker 1: say a handy or Uber. Yeah, I mean, because of

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Speaker 1: things like the terrible child care system and non existent

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Speaker 1: family system in this country. Like maybe you are a

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Speaker 1: woman who's opted to go for more flexible work schedule

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Speaker 1: like an uber or a lift can provide. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're there, it's not like they're providing for you in

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Speaker 1: any way. Not. I mean, no person who's employing a

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Speaker 1: contractor has to provide for you in that way. Well,

431
00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: and that's the thing I mean. This to me is

432
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: a symptom of a broader issue of our contract work economy.

433
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: And how uh in I m h O. There are

434
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: way too many massive corporations that are allowed to rely

435
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: way too much on contract work so that they don't

436
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: have to pay benefits. Which is interesting because I feel

437
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: like a lot of this app culture came out after

438
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 1: the or or from the recession, when it's like, Okay,

439
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: well everybody's been laid off, but we can bootstrap our

440
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: own app and make millions, and you know, I'm I'm

441
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 1: a guy who's going to create this app and make

442
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: a lot of money to make everybody's lives easier. Um So,

443
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 1: but then you just end up with a workforce that

444
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: still isn't able to get any sort of legal protections

445
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: as full time employees. And I mean, how how independent

446
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: are you really when like, for instance, if you're a

447
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: driver for a driving service a rideshare app, You've still

448
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:56,959
Speaker 1: got to pay your own car expenses. You've still got

449
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: to pay your own parking tickets, which I totally feel

450
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: like as companies should pay for if you're a driver

451
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: for them and you end up getting a ticket anyway, Um,

452
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: some drivers end up earning like three bucks an hour

453
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 1: after they have to pay for all of this stuff.

454
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, and also depending on if

455
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: you have to cancel rides, and there's all sorts of stuff,

456
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: they can influence how much money you're actually going to

457
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: take home. And then of course, on the flip side

458
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: of that, there are all sorts of concerns over consumer protection,

459
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 1: including price transparency, privacy risks, UH, safety standards, and these

460
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: are the kinds of issues that could lead users very

461
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: vulnerable and have left users vulnerable, particularly lower income users

462
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 1: or are users in more and just marginalized groups in

463
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: general who have fewer channels for legal recourse. Yeah, and

464
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Christian was talking about the push

465
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: to get Uber to have cameras in their cars. Uber

466
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: comes back with that saying, um, it's too much of

467
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: an expense for our new drivers. Um. And Uber has

468
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 1: been slammed a lot for loopholes allowing them to hire

469
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 1: people with felony convictions. Because the thing is, and this

470
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: is a thing that like taxi people have been like

471
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: hammering home a lot. Uh. And of course they have

472
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: their own agenda. But you know, Uber background checks use

473
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: a database that can only go back for seven years,

474
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: and they refuse to fingerprint their drivers versus taxi companies

475
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: who check a prospective driver's fingerprint records against a database

476
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: that theoretically include their complete criminal history in this country.

477
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: And the whole fingerprinting thing is why Uh. Companies like

478
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: Uber and Lift pulled out of Austin, Texas. For instance,

479
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: Austin was ready to clamp down on you know, safety

480
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: rules and rags to try to protect customers, and Uber

481
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: was basically like nope, So since what is its spring

482
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: of this year. Yeah, yeah, there. It was actually because

483
00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: of something called Proposition one that fail that, according to

484
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: the Daily Dot, would have replaced an ordinance adopted in

485
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: December that required them to conduct those finger based fingerprint

486
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: based background checks. Lea on the whole thing with those

487
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: FBI fingerprint checks that they take sixteen weeks, and Uber's like, nope,

488
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: that's a barrier to new drivers getting a job with

489
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: us so that they can quickly make money. And it

490
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 1: just really sounds like, well, no, that's more of honestly

491
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: a barrier to you making money off those drivers. But

492
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: that's neither handle there. Um. Actually that's the whole point

493
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: of this podcast, um, and in general for communities that

494
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: you know, that Business for Social Responsibility Report talked a

495
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: lot about the inclusivity of these apps and services and

496
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: the benefits for low income communities. But the thing is, Um,

497
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: because of all the money that's going toward rideshare apps,

498
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: for instance, that could actually result in a weekend push

499
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: for expanded public transit options, But like, who is that

500
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: affecting Because a lot of people who don't use rideshare

501
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: apps still need better public transit. But like if you

502
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: and I don't care anymore about expanding public trans in

503
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: Atlanta because we're able to just hop into a lift

504
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: that takes away a lot of the like vocal citizen

505
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: muscle that can go into saying no, no, no, we

506
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: still want you to expand Marta, Please expand Marta. So

507
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: essentially this means and this is what we're gonna do.

508
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: And the next half of the podcast, when we come

509
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: back from a quick break, is talk about the privilege

510
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: wrapped up in how the sharing economy is structured. And

511
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: we'll get back to that end just a second. Okay,

512
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: So obviously I was surprised to anyone racism. Hello, It

513
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: is a main factor and a lot of the crap

514
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: that goes on with the gig economy. You know that.

515
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: That bs OUR report was like, it's an end for racism.

516
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: You don't have to discriminate against anyone because of their color.

517
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: Oh if only life were that great. Um. In late

518
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,479
Speaker 1: May of this year, there was a twenty five year

519
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: old black man who sued Airbnb for racial discrimination, and

520
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: as reports we Read pointed out, his account reflects a

521
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: recent Harvard study that documented widespread discrimination against African American

522
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: guests on Airbnb. Hello. How many articles have we read

523
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: talking about black individuals men or women or both who

524
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: show up to their Airbnb rental and like, have the

525
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: cops called on them because people think they're breaking in? Yeah,

526
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: hence the hashtag Airbnb while black as the hashtag uber

527
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: will black. Oh yeah, same thing exactly, And Airbnb's response

528
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: seemed to be really strong, but to me, it comes

529
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: out like a lot of hot air. So their responses

530
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: to of course denounce racism. Uh. They engaged the former

531
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: head of the a C l U d C office

532
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: to find ways that they can address the challenge of

533
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: racist Airbnb hosts. UM they suspended or banned people who

534
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: violated its anti discrimination policy. Like for instance, trans woman

535
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: Shady Potoski got a lot of noise going on Twitter

536
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: when she recounted her experience of UM having her Airbnb

537
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: reservation declined because she was like, Hey, I'm a trans woman. Uh,

538
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: the world stage is not necessarily the safest place for me,

539
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: so I always make sure to disclose two potential Airbnb

540
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: host that I'm a trans woman, because God forbid, I

541
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: show up in person and there is some sort of

542
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: awful thing that happens. Anyway, Her post on Twitter ended

543
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: up getting a lot of attention in Airbnb, and I

544
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: think that's like a year after the fact, Airbnb ended

545
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: up banning that host as part of their anti discrimination efforts,

546
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: which I mean, that's great, but it would be better

547
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: if there were policies and procedures in place to prevent

548
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: that from happening from the get go. UM. AIRBND also

549
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: actually hired former U S Attorney General Eric Holder to

550
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: strengthen its anti discrimination policy. Yeah. I mean, personally speaking,

551
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: I give them props for acting as to me quickly

552
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: as they have, UM in between a big study that

553
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: came out a few months back, UM really quantifying the

554
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: unconscious bias and LRTE racism UM that happens through their platform,

555
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: and I do think that they're serious about it. UM.

556
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: And it goes to this issue of you know, having

557
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: to take an intersectional approach to how you are creating

558
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: these apps and realizing that, Yeah, I mean you're going

559
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: to have to try to use technology to work around

560
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: unconscious bias in addition to racism. Yes, yes, and that's

561
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: why you have straight up anti discrimination policy these But

562
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: in terms of unconscious bias, that's when we get into

563
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: the questions of like Okay, profile pictures, maybe that is

564
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: not necessarily something that we need to have because that

565
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: sparks it. There have been um situations where there's a

566
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: woman of color who noticed she was getting turned down

567
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: an awful lot for airbnbs, so she switched her profile

568
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: picture to not reveal her ethnicity and low and behold,

569
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: she's getting acceptances left in her right well exactly. And

570
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: on the flip side, there's a similar profile picture issue

571
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: with hosts. So there's this research sided in Forbes that

572
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: found that black hosts are charging about twelve percent less

573
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: for equivalent rentals by non black hosts, and it's because

574
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: they might be having a harder time attracting guests and

575
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 1: have to keep their prices low. The whole thing is

576
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: that Airbnb tells new hosts that they quote may want

577
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: to charge lower than average rates to attract travelers at first,

578
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: Like when you first get on Airbnb, no matter who

579
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: you are, start low, attract a good audience that can

580
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: give you good reviews, and then raise your prices from there.

581
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: But the researchers were finding that black hosts lower prices

582
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: were evidence of a permanent disadvantage. Why what is the

583
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 1: layer there? Well, Airbnb if you, I mean, if you've

584
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: ever used it. I've used it numerous times. When you're

585
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: searching for rentals, you know you've got the picture of

586
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 1: the rental front and center, but also like right there

587
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: on the side is the picture of the host, and

588
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: sure you know you can have as The example is

589
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 1: that you can have the Eiffel Tower as your profile picture.

590
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: But the whole thing is that you're using your face

591
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: to put people at ease, like, hey, I'm a human,

592
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: I'm not some predator or whatever, like you can trust

593
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: me and rent from me. Um. But the fact is,

594
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: whether it's conscious or not, a lot of people are

595
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 1: passing up units being rented out by black individuals because

596
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: of racial bias. Well, and also to the Eiffel Tower example,

597
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: our social media habits, especially if you look at Facebook

598
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: and Instagram, the things that we are drawn to the

599
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 1: most are photos not of objects, but of actual people.

600
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: So I can see why, like you're and also too,

601
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 1: if I were to run across an Airbnb um listing

602
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: with an object rather than a person, I know there

603
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: would be a moment in my head of like, who

604
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 1: is this really? What are they? What are they trying

605
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: to hide? Well, and I mean that's a real fear

606
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: for a lot of people because there have been so

607
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: many reports too of harassment and sexual assault by women

608
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: who have showed up at a rental and the person

609
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: who's there to hand in the keys or share a

610
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: room is not the person whose picture was on the site.

611
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 1: So like, even if your picture is not the Eiffel

612
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: Tower or like a dog, you know, there's still so

613
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: much potential to lie and take advantage, right, and uh,

614
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: this has me thinking too of the difference between Airbnb

615
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: and older rental platforms like Verbo and home away um,

616
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: which my husband and I have used the number of times,

617
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: especially for things like writing things like cabins and beach

618
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: condos which makes us sound fancy, but we go there

619
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: because we can't afford a fancy one um And there

620
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: are no on the listenings. You only see a thumbnail

621
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 1: of actual home once you are thinking you really want

622
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 1: to rent it, and then you go to the rental page.

623
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: You can see their profile and there's usually a picture

624
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: and the way to contact them and all of that,

625
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: but it is more focused solely on what the place

626
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: looks like rather than who you're renting from, which is

627
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,280
Speaker 1: kind of interesting. And in one of these pieces focusing

628
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: on Airbnb, I think they reached out to Verbo for

629
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: comment and Verbo was like, nah, so I don't. I don't.

630
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: I'm not sure why, but yeah, well yeah, And I

631
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: mean those researchers sided by Forbes definitely said the profile

632
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: pictures should be less prominent. Maybe don't even have one

633
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: on the search page at all, move it inside, and

634
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 1: um ask yourself, as the renter why it matters, especially

635
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: if you're renting a home. I can understand, like if

636
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: you're sharing a space, if you're not doing the whole

637
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: home option, maybe you just want a seller who is

638
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: also a woman, for instance, to feel safer. But I mean,

639
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: I think asking yourself about your biases is always a

640
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 1: good exercise, but since people you know are not always

641
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: so great at doing that. There's the guy who launched

642
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: noir B and B, particularly for people of color looking

643
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: for rentals who don't want to have to deal with

644
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: all of this nonsense. And we're seeing, you know, women

645
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: who exclusively want to rent, especially for like a shared

646
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: situation where someone's just running a room. They only want

647
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: to rent to other women, but they don't want to

648
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: be seen as discriminatory. They're just like, well, that's my

649
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: comfort level too. Yeah, I mean, and that's an issue

650
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 1: of like we're starting to self segregate in the interest

651
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: of safety. I mean. Yeah. That twenty seven year old

652
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: guys Stephen Grant was one of the many, many African

653
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: Americans who had had the cops called on him and

654
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 1: his girlfriend when they showed up to check into their Airbnb,

655
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: and he basically just said, yeah, we launched noir BnB.

656
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: It's called because we realized there was a lack of

657
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: concern for the safety and comfort of black travelers and

658
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: we wanted to fill that void. Um. He said, human

659
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: beings create technology, but there needs to be more diversity

660
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: when it comes to the creators of said technology. And

661
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 1: that is a massive point we're about to hit too. Um.

662
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: But we have to talk about obviously sexual harassment and

663
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: sexual violence. The unfortunate thing about it when it comes

664
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 1: to these gig economy apps is that the numbers are

665
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,959
Speaker 1: really murky. Um. Sometimes things get reported, sometimes they don't.

666
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: Sometimes people report things straight to the app and not

667
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: the cops sometimes vice versa, and the cops don't always

668
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,760
Speaker 1: necessarily right down know whether it was a sexual assault

669
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 1: in an airbnb versus a taxi, or whether it's a

670
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: sexual assault on the street. They don't necessarily break it

671
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: down that way, right, um, And in case you are

672
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: listening and want to know more about this, will post

673
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: the link, of course on this podcast post, but you

674
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: can also go to Who's driving You dot org because

675
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 1: there is no, you know, the other database of these

676
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 1: kinds of instances, and they itemize reported incidents involving Uber

677
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: and list specifically and break it down by crime. And

678
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: you're scrolling through and first there are deaths and there

679
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: are a number of them. There are assaults, and then

680
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: you scroll down to alleged sexual assaults and harassment, and

681
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: the list just goes on and on and on and on.

682
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I mean, I was stunned. I mean,

683
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 1: I I knew that this was an issue, but just

684
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: seeing it when you're just scrolling through it, it will

685
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 1: hit you. And Uber, for one kind of refuses to

686
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: take any responsibility for this, or refuses to admit that

687
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 1: the numbers might be as high as they are, because

688
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 1: why would you lie and go on this website that

689
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: you're talking about, Kristen, Why would you take the time

690
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,919
Speaker 1: to even make that up? Um, there was a little

691
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: bit of a kerfuffle. BuzzFeed published screenshots from a former

692
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: Uber customer service rep that showed more than six thousand

693
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: tickets in the database for sexual assault and nearly six

694
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 1: thousand for rape, and Uber was like, no, no, that's

695
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: not that's not right. They said that only five of

696
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: those were legitimate rape tickets and fewer than a hundred

697
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 1: and seventy sexual assault cases legitimate rape. Hyeah, you know,

698
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: you know, like you're in sketchy territory when that happens.

699
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: And uh, what they blamed the inflated numbers on, or

700
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 1: which they said were inflated, was typos. They said people

701
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: meant to type rate like as in the fair instead

702
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: of rape, or they were saying tacky things like your

703
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: prices raped my wallet, right, and and to that example,

704
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: that's why, no, don't don't use rape in that context.

705
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,879
Speaker 1: That is not rape. Um. And just anecdotally, I don't

706
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: think that my iPhone has ever auto corrected anything to rape.

707
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: I'm shrugging my shoulders right now. I don't know that's

708
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: well obviously that's just my personal experience, but well sure,

709
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: but I mean, Uber, the the lifeblood of all of

710
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: these apps is publicity, right, like word of mouth. The

711
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: app is cool, it's hip, it's cheap, it's got a

712
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: great user experience. Just inner things. It's so easy, your

713
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: credit card infos stored in there. You just you don't

714
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: have to tip at least like not handing over the cash.

715
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 1: You can tip after, right, And so like, oh good,

716
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: you're protecting me from like potentially getting mugged by some

717
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 1: delivery person. But um, yeah, you're not protecting me against

718
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 1: sexual assault. And there was this horror story that is

719
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: all over the internet of this nineteen year old man

720
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: who was locked up and sexually assaulted by his Airbnb

721
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: host in Madrid. And he didn't know whether his phone

722
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: because he's from Massachusetts, he didn't know whether his phone

723
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,959
Speaker 1: could access international emergency numbers. So he texts his mother

724
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: from like this basement in Madrid. She contacts Airbnb. They

725
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: tell her to just call Madrid police herself rather than

726
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: like sending an agent to go check on him. Um,

727
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: and when she did, when she took the number that

728
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: they gave her, that she could not get through to

729
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: Madrid authorities and Airbnb, in like a half hearted defense, said, oh, well,

730
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: we thought the assault had already taken place, so we

731
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: didn't really know what you wanted, and they wouldn't release

732
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: the address to her, they wouldn't give any information. And

733
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: that's where we get into this tough issue too of yes, customers,

734
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: privacy needs to be protected, but also what do you

735
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: do in these kinds of situations like where is the line?

736
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: And who's making these calls? And why aren't better systems

737
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: set up in place? You know, I mean there's a

738
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: lot of like hands up in the air of like nope, no,

739
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,359
Speaker 1: we will take your money and we will act as

740
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 1: the go between to like connect users and renters. But

741
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: right these companies want as little liability as possible hands down, um,

742
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 1: And really, at the crux of all of this is

743
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: the issue of privilege, because I forget who it was

744
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: who made this excellent point where oh yes, okay, so

745
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: this is here and kale over a broadly who says

746
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: the lifeblood of a sharing economy is the idea that

747
00:44:55,680 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: the public space is a safe space where in individuals

748
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: can open up their homes to strangers and read the

749
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 1: financial and cultural dividends. Okay, just take street harassment alone.

750
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: We know for a fact that they the public space

751
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: is not unequivocally a safe space. I mean, this is

752
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 1: the assumption held by the people who are developing these

753
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: apps and these technologies that you can not only walk

754
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: safely through public spaces, but ride, sleep, work free of harassment.

755
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: And then it's okay. You just trust as long as

756
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: you know they see your profile picture and they have

757
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: a credit card information. You know, if they trash your apartment,

758
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,479
Speaker 1: Airbnb will help you cover that cost. Like, don't worry

759
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 1: about it. Everybody can trust each other. What in the

760
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: world are you talking about. You're talking about public spaces

761
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: according to sis straight white men, you know, and that

762
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 1: and and not saying that like those guys are all terrible.

763
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: I'm married one. Um. But it's it's the privilege issue

764
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: and the fact that we need to except that, No,

765
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: this isn't some kind of uh color blind utopia, nor

766
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: should it be, you know. Yeah, I mean Kal points

767
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: out that, um, you know, for women, people of color,

768
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: for trans people, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. On and on our

769
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 1: homes are our retreats from these contested public spaces. It's

770
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: a retreat from getting hollered at on the street by

771
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: people who are disgusting and in the sharing economy, you

772
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: know someone else's home or car, even if you're paying

773
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: for it to use it, it's not necessarily a safe space.

774
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: And she interviewed Dr Fiona Vera Gray of Durham University

775
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: in the UK, who has studied a lot about sexual harassment,

776
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: and she said that basically, when it comes to public spaces,

777
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: women in particular are forced to moderate their desire for

778
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 1: freedom and safety. You end up restricting your own freedom

779
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: in order to feel safe. No one has to lock

780
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,800
Speaker 1: you up, no one has to bar your door. You

781
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,879
Speaker 1: feel that you have to lock yourself up in order

782
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 1: to feel safe or to recover from having gone out

783
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:15,839
Speaker 1: into these contested public spaces. And so Dr Vera Gray

784
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: was telling Kale about the so called just world hypothesis,

785
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: and this is like a perfect encapsulation of the privileged conversation.

786
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: It's the idea that the world is essentially a just

787
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 1: place and that if we just all come together and share,

788
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: it's going to be mutually beneficial for everyone. So she says,

789
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: if you're a man who's been brought up to see

790
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: the world as a safe space, as a fair space,

791
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 1: a space that people can move and interact in, freely,

792
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: then you'll have that view. And the only thing I

793
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: would change and that quote is a white man, because

794
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: if we're talking about safe public spaces, that does not

795
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: apply to African American men no at all. So it

796
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 1: seems like the band aid that we're sort of slapping

797
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,240
Speaker 1: on this issue as quickly as possible because the sharing

798
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 1: economy is growing as fast as it possibly can because

799
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: billions of dollars. Is this issue of self segregation like

800
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: the noir BnB that we've already talked about um that

801
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: Stefan Grant started. And then in terms of gender, there's

802
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: been so much media attention around UH services like Chariot

803
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: for Women and she Taxis, which are just two of

804
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: the women only rideshare services that have been launched directly

805
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: in response to sexual assault and sexual discrimination complaints. UH.

806
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: They exist abroad as well. There's some in India. In

807
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: France you have Blah Blah Car, which is just acute sounding,

808
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 1: you know service that also allows women to request female drivers.

809
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 1: But there's been a lot of write ups too about

810
00:48:55,280 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 1: very trollish men who are launching sexual discrimination plaints against

811
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 1: women only rideshare things, because that's I mean, and that's

812
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 1: awful and also goes to the point that while these

813
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: services might be necessary, they are not a fix, you know,

814
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: until until we're willing to get at the root of

815
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: the problem and take action on that UM and this,

816
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: and the solution is not also to just tell the

817
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: gig worker to get a better job. You hear that

818
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: all the time. Oh, you're complaining, Just get a better

819
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: You hear that with everything in the economy. Just get

820
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: a better job. Just get a better job. Like it's

821
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: so talk about privilege, talk about privilege. And you have

822
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 1: to keep in mind too with things like this, a

823
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: lot of the people who are working in this economy

824
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 1: are working in it to supplement an income already. So

825
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 1: maybe they're not making enough money. Maybe they're literally just

826
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: trying to provide for their children. And they've also perhaps

827
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: had to drop out of the traditional economy because our

828
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: system is so jacked when it comes to things like childcare.

829
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: So we do have, thankfully advocates who are tirelessly working

830
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 1: on this, including the National Employment Law Project that really

831
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: wants to restructure the ten contractor relationship to offer workers

832
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,399
Speaker 1: greater protection, and they have proposed a whole model for this. Yeah,

833
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: so they say that we should expand the statutory employee framework.

834
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: This is basically where contractors are considered actual workers for

835
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: certain regulatory purposes like tax laws. Uh. And this would

836
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: provide quote unquote portable benefits and policymakers would directly require

837
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 1: companies that use these ten ninety nine workers to abide

838
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: by labor standards like the minimum wage, to pay into

839
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 1: Social Security and state workers camp and unemployment insurance funds.

840
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: So basically like, not only in relation to the gig economy,

841
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: but in general, to treat workers people in this country

842
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,280
Speaker 1: who maybe we're criticizing them because you're part of the system.

843
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: You're you're not you're not contributing to a mayor ica.

844
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, um, let's treat all of our

845
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: workers then as humans who deserve dignity and respect and

846
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: to be able to provide for their families and help

847
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,359
Speaker 1: is also help. The National Employment Law Project now also

848
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: wants to see an avenue for on demand contractors to

849
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:20,240
Speaker 1: be able to organize and collectively bargain around labor conditions. Basically,

850
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 1: it's the same song and dance we've seen forever of like, hey,

851
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: you know what helps people who are marginalized and voiceless unions.

852
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,280
Speaker 1: I mean, regardless of your opinion on unions, that's generally

853
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 1: what helps working conditions. Yeah, labor organizing, and that's how

854
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: we've gotten all of the workers rights that people are worried.

855
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 1: But sharing economy is eroding. Yeah, And I mean you've

856
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 1: got Seattle, which is planning to give rideshare workers the

857
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: legal right to collectively bargain. And I mean that that's

858
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 1: just one effort. I'm sure there are many others in

859
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: many other cities across the world. But yeah, I mean

860
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 1: it's so great to be able to press the button

861
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: and have my groceries delivered or have someone show up

862
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: to take me to the airport. But I mean there

863
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 1: is so much more wrapped up in that, because it's

864
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 1: kind of like, um, when you talk about public assistance

865
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: and people are like, uh, you know, I hate that

866
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 1: people are dependent on this thing entitlement, entitlement, and it's

867
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: the kind of thing of like, um, you know, people

868
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: who are working for these gig economy apps, these sharing

869
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: economy apps are trying to contribute to society. They are

870
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,800
Speaker 1: trying to make a living wage and support themselves and

871
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: potentially their families. Um. But in the same time, they're

872
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: like trapped in this vortex of like not making enough money,

873
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: not having protections. Because the convenience factor applies not only

874
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: to us consumers clicking you know, the the app and

875
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 1: instantly having whatever we need right at our fingertips, but

876
00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: also if you need some income, there's the uh, the

877
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 1: convenience factor of it too, where you can you know,

878
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: I think it does lower the barrier to potentially making

879
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: some money, which is very tempting. And unfortunately there are

880
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: too many instances and I've heard this from so many

881
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: Uber and Lift drivers, particularly on my rides home from

882
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: the airport, because they're usually it's like the longest time

883
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: I'm in the car, and um, I always try to

884
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:29,959
Speaker 1: talk to my driver's UM, and I've heard so many

885
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: times just about what a hustle it is. And for

886
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: that reason one another not to uh to seem like

887
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 1: I'm sponsored by Lift, But one thing I do like

888
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 1: about Lift is that you can tip your drivers. And

889
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: if you have a good driver, tip your driver, seriously,

890
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 1: tip your driver, UM, because a good karma just like

891
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: being a good human and be they're not, you know,

892
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 1: they're not making a lot of money. UM, So a

893
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 1: lot of the time. So the main takeaway of all

894
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 1: of this is the technology terrific, the potential incredible. But

895
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: if we want to truly make it inclusive, we have

896
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 1: to truly make it inclusive. You know, Inclusivity is not

897
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 1: limited to convenience. Yeah, and I think you know, one

898
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 1: thing I was thinking of when we were discussing like

899
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: racist hosts on Airbnb for instance, um or other you know,

900
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: property rental places. I think there is an attitude that like, well,

901
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: I'm a human with a space to rent, so I

902
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 1: have the right to get on Airbnb and rent it

903
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: to whoever I choose, and like to an extent. Yeah,

904
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 1: but there's nothing stopping I mean, Airbnb has launched all

905
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: of these anti discrimination efforts. There's nothing stopping Airbnb from

906
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: being like, you know what, we just really don't want

907
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 1: you here if you're such an exclusive renter. Oh yeah,

908
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: I mean, and it sounds like they've done that with

909
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: for instance, with the the woman who turned away the

910
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 1: trans woman. Yeah. Well, I guess what I'm trying to

911
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: say is like, and I think all those things are positive,

912
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: But I guess what I'm trying to say is making

913
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: it way more clear upfront of like maybe we just

914
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: don't want you here if you're going to be racist,

915
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: or perhaps if you are using it just to like

916
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 1: lure women or something, well, it sounds like in that

917
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 1: situation we are really mixing up accessibility and inclusivity. You know,

918
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 1: just because it might be really easy to access and

919
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 1: use doesn't mean that the barrier of entry is as

920
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 1: low for every body. You know, just because you can

921
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: access an app doesn't mean you really can access safely

922
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: the service. So I am so sure that there are

923
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people listening to this who have a

924
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: lot to say. Um, and we want to hear about

925
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: this from all ends of the share economy, whether you

926
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 1: are an employee, a customer, whether you are a full

927
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: fledged handy lift uber, corporate employee. Um. Because this is

928
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 1: such a major issue, this isn't going anywhere, nor are

929
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:14,320
Speaker 1: we proposing that it should. But um, there are definitely

930
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:19,360
Speaker 1: ways that, already in its infancy relatively can be reformed.

931
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,800
Speaker 1: So mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is

932
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: where you can send all of your emails. You can

933
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 1: also tweet us a mom stuff podcasts or messages on Facebook,

934
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with

935
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:32,800
Speaker 1: you when we come right back from a quick break.

936
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I have a letter here from Megan

937
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: in response to our Mad Women Women in Advertising two parter. Uh.

938
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 1: She said, I was beyond excited to see that you

939
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 1: did a two part series on women in advertising. I

940
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: majored in advertising in college with the dream of becoming

941
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:00,360
Speaker 1: a creative director. However, I quickly learned how hard that

942
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: career path is, especially for women. I interned in the

943
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 1: creative department of an advertising agency as a copywriter my

944
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 1: junior year of college. Even though several women worked at

945
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: the agency, everyone in the creative department was male except

946
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 1: for one of the copywriters and an art director. However,

947
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: both of these women seemed to fit in better with

948
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 1: the guys than me. I wore a dresses and makeup

949
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: often because I liked to. I was told by a

950
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: male creative director that I dressed up too much, even

951
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 1: though I didn't look much different from the women and

952
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 1: other departments. My senior year, I applied to be the

953
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 1: creative director from my classes advertising capstone project. Since I

954
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: was the only applicant with experience working in a creative

955
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: department and an ad agency, I felt confident that I

956
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: would get the position. However, I lost out to the

957
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 1: only guy who applied. Later, this guy would say to

958
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: his team of all women, women just aren't as creative

959
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 1: and women can't be funny. I'm not even kidding. This

960
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 1: was a twenty two year old, college educated man saying

961
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 1: blatantly sexist remarks to his team of women, and I

962
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: was the only one who ever stood up to him. Unfortunately,

963
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: this was not the end of my experience of sexism

964
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 1: in my advertising career. I once had an informal interview

965
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 1: with a male creative director who after ten minutes told

966
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 1: me that he didn't really see me as a creative

967
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 1: and that I should work in the typically female dominated

968
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 1: account services as an introvert. I never once considered account services,

969
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 1: but I guess the way I looked made this particular

970
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: creative director I think I'd be a great fit. Eventually,

971
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 1: I gave up on trying to make it as a

972
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: creative in an ad agency because I felt like I

973
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 1: would never be the right personality fit and I wasn't

974
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 1: willing to sacrifice who I am for my career. Today,

975
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 1: I work as a marketing manager for an in house

976
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: marketing team. I get to do a little bit of

977
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 1: everything from creative to research to analytics. Currently, my team

978
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 1: is made up of women, and I have to brag

979
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 1: that it is the most creative and productive AD team

980
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 1: I've ever worked with. Sometimes I do miss parts of

981
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 1: the ad agency life, like free beer and late night

982
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 1: brainstorming sessions. But what I like better is working somewhere

983
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: that I feel appreciated and respected, and I don't think

984
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: I would have experienced that in most agencies if I'd

985
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 1: stayed on the path to become a creative director. Oh boy, Megan, well,

986
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 1: I'm glad you found somewhere that makes you happy. Thanks

987
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 1: for writing. So I have a letter here from Amy

988
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 1: with a positive story about being a woman in the

989
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 1: ad industry. She writes, I'm a VP director at a

990
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: large media agency, the mom of a three year old

991
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 1: and a one year old, as well as having a

992
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 1: spouse who works full time in marketing too. To say

993
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 1: my life as hectic is an understatement. I spent the

994
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: first eight years of my career in the same department

995
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: run by the same woman whom I eventually reported to

996
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 1: as a working mom herself. She made it her mission

997
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 1: to look after, challenge and mentor women and moms on

998
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: her team. When I announced that I was pregnant with

999
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 1: my first we began informal working mom lessons once a

1000
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 1: month to discuss and prepare for how my life would

1001
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 1: change and how to manage my career and ambitions Accordingly.

1002
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 1: I was actually coached and told that you've proven yourself

1003
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 1: to us by her and others, which gave me the

1004
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: confidence to push for flexibility. I needed my team and

1005
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 1: clients know that unless something critical is going on, I'm

1006
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 1: unavailable from five ish to eight dish while I pick up,

1007
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 1: feed and play with my kids. So to me whatever

1008
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 1: you need and you'll have a response by the time

1009
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 1: you're in in the morning. I feel empowered to do

1010
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 1: this thanks to this old boss slash mentor and watching

1011
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 1: other working moms and mentors around me leave for the

1012
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 1: train at five or go on a kid's field trip

1013
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 1: and still earn VP and s VP titles. They are

1014
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 1: countless women I know who will name this woman as

1015
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 1: a key reason they remain in the industry today. I'll

1016
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 1: also note that four out of the five years I've

1017
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 1: been working entirely remotely, when my husband's job required us

1018
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: to move to Chicago, I've been able to continue working

1019
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 1: for this company in other cities. Even better, I'm not

1020
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 1: the only person doing this, and we have a few

1021
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 1: people all over the country who, for some reason or another,

1022
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 1: are working from home. We've also set up a working

1023
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 1: parents group note parents not moms, where moms and dads

1024
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 1: can identify working parent mentors ask for advice, even if

1025
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 1: it's just recipes, kids will eat and generally support each

1026
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 1: other in demanding jobs. Advertising is still tough on women

1027
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 1: and moms. Just last night, I had to hide in

1028
01:00:57,640 --> 01:00:59,959
Speaker 1: my bedroom and take a six pm call with senior

1029
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 1: clients while my kids banked on the door saying they

1030
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 1: wanted Mommy to make dinner and not daddy. And that sucks,

1031
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: and they're definitely times. I hate the inflexibility that client

1032
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 1: services lead to, but in the media agency world, we

1033
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: also have to make money by being perpetually understaffed, so

1034
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 1: things are not all rosie. However, I did want to

1035
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 1: paint a picture of my extremely positive experience as a

1036
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 1: woman and mother in the industry, and Amy, thank you

1037
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 1: so much for sharing that. That's so good to hear

1038
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 1: and also just such a perfect case study of women

1039
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 1: supporting other women, parents supporting other parents in the workplace

1040
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 1: and we need more of it, so if you have

1041
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 1: stories to share with us, Mom stuff at how stuff

1042
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: works dot com is our email address and for links

1043
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 1: to all of our social media as well as all

1044
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 1: of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with our sources. So

1045
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 1: you can learn more about the gig economy, head on

1046
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 1: over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com. For

1047
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how

1048
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 1: stuff Workshop comics