Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works
Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh
Speaker 1: Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant, Jerry Roblin. Just a
Speaker 1: couple of no Man's on the road. Yeah, with our
Speaker 1: trinkets and our recordion. Uh you know gypsies, tramps and thieves.
Speaker 1: You like my my Share? Yeah? I learned it from
Speaker 1: Jack from UM Oh yeah, was that his Share? Well?
Speaker 1: There was this one really classic scene where um he
Speaker 1: meets Share in a restaurant, but he thinks it's like
Speaker 1: a shared drag queen impersonator, Right, so he calls her
Speaker 1: like Mr. Sister and like starts giving her porters on
Speaker 1: how to do a good share. Yeah, he always does
Speaker 1: the hair flip. Right. I love that show. It's a
Speaker 1: good show. It's it holds up. It's in reruns now
Speaker 1: it's just as good. Yeah. But yeah, I had this
Speaker 1: that horrible Share song in my head like while I
Speaker 1: was um studying, and it just wouldn't go away. So
Speaker 1: I listened to it and now I'm like, no, it
Speaker 1: just got worse. Uh. Is there a modern PC version
Speaker 1: that's Roma Tramps and Thieves? No, but in my head,
Speaker 1: you can also say gypsies, Franks, and beans, and it's
Speaker 1: like kind of neutral. It's better than tramps and thieves.
Speaker 1: Good point. But the term gypsy is that a good point.
Speaker 1: It's a terrible point. Don't patronize me gypsies though. The
Speaker 1: word itself, we're gonna try not to use because it's
Speaker 1: it's a pejorative term. It is, at the very least,
Speaker 1: it's now considered an ethnic slur uh. And it's in
Speaker 1: part because it's associated with the concept of being jipped.
Speaker 1: Like if somebody doesn't give you a fair deal or
Speaker 1: something like that, or rips you off or something like that,
Speaker 1: you've been jipped. It's it's short for gypsied. You've been
Speaker 1: you've been dealt with somebody, right, not the other way around. Right,
Speaker 1: because we believe it came from Egypt. Right, it was
Speaker 1: a miss misapplication, misunderstanding in the Greek Isles by Josh Clark,
Speaker 1: romance novel. All right, so let's let's get into this.
Speaker 1: We're not gonna say gypsies like you said, Actually that's
Speaker 1: not entirely true. We're probably going to forget once in
Speaker 1: a while because we were both raised on shell Silverstein.
Speaker 1: Do you remember you may reminded me of this one,
Speaker 1: The Gypsies are Coming, which is it's very difficult to
Speaker 1: find the original version of the Gypsies are Coming, which
Speaker 1: is a poem of shell silversteins and where the sidewalk ends.
Speaker 1: Because before his death, and I believe that sometimes in
Speaker 1: the nineties or early two thousand's, it was that long ago,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I remember he changed it from the Gypsies
Speaker 1: are Coming to the Googis or the Googies because he
Speaker 1: felt that it was mean towards Gypsies, and it kind
Speaker 1: of is because it's about child stealing Gypsies, which is
Speaker 1: a rumor um that's been attached to Gypsies forever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they steal children and use them as props in making
Speaker 1: in pickpockets schemes. Yeah, there are a lot of, um,
Speaker 1: I guess, rumors about the culture, and a lot of
Speaker 1: them are founded and a lot of them are unfounded. Yeah,
Speaker 1: none of it's just like black and white one way
Speaker 1: or the other. The Gypsies aren't just some completely kicked
Speaker 1: around put upon ethnic group. And and at the same
Speaker 1: time they're not just a bunch of like thieving violin
Speaker 1: playing marauders, you know. Yeah, So anyway, to get to
Speaker 1: the point, we'll say Roma as much as we can
Speaker 1: roma or romany, and we'll even explain why we call
Speaker 1: them Roma. Shortly it sounds good. Well, we just missed.
Speaker 1: International Roman Day was on April eight man and that's
Speaker 1: been around and John Carey, Secretive of State carry came
Speaker 1: out and that's some nice words to say about, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, celebrating the rich Romanic culture and give him
Speaker 1: a break, Yeah sort of, you know. But um, I
Speaker 1: didn't know there was a International Roma Day, So I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's sticking in like the mass public. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, it takes a little time to gain traction.
Speaker 1: It's been a while. It has been since the seventies.
Speaker 1: The seventies were like a big era of um ethnic
Speaker 1: and minority group like saying hey, we're here and like
Speaker 1: we're standing up for our rights and you can't kick
Speaker 1: us around anymore. You know, good for them, we're owning
Speaker 1: our identity and the Roman did it too. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been a little while. Uh. These days there are
Speaker 1: around twelve million Roma. And when we say scattered, they
Speaker 1: are scattered. And that's what they're known for, is not
Speaker 1: dropping down permanent roots and moving along and one reason
Speaker 1: is because they've often been forced through the centuries to
Speaker 1: move along until today. Yeah, there's a there's a basically,
Speaker 1: the Roma sociologists, the the authority on Romanic culture and people,
Speaker 1: Dr Romani, Dr finessca Isabella finnesska Um. She basically points out,
Speaker 1: like tell me another group that just willfully picks up
Speaker 1: steaks and leaves all the time because they just feel
Speaker 1: like it at the at their whim She's like that
Speaker 1: that doesn't exist. They move largely mostly because they've been
Speaker 1: forced to time and time again. I think humans desire
Speaker 1: to route down. That's sort of what we've based our
Speaker 1: success on is people. Yes, is staying one place and
Speaker 1: fortifying and you know sedentary nous. I don't know about sedentary,
Speaker 1: but like getting couch locked exactly. That's your new favorite term. Yeah, so,
Speaker 1: uh yeah, they they are kind of spread all over
Speaker 1: the EU. They're scattered to the way. Then they do
Speaker 1: move quite frequently. But it's like you said, it's it's um,
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily because they're nomadic. They are nomadic people,
Speaker 1: but not necessarily because they want to be. But the
Speaker 1: problem is is where wherever they go. Virtually everywhere they
Speaker 1: go in the European Union. Um, they are kind of
Speaker 1: forced out eventually at some point. Yeah, I sent you
Speaker 1: that article today and it is literally in today's news
Speaker 1: how Paris those elite note from the chief of police
Speaker 1: in Paris that said, on the orders of his superiors,
Speaker 1: police are to day and night locate Roma families living
Speaker 1: in the street and systematically evict them, even though that
Speaker 1: is supposedly illegal in France. And uh it is and
Speaker 1: it's a chic area of Paris, and they don't want
Speaker 1: um people in poverty. And a lot of the Romantic
Speaker 1: people are still living in poverty pretty much, all of
Speaker 1: them are. I'm not saying that makes it right. All
Speaker 1: all of the Romani except for the gypsy kings the
Speaker 1: band are having in poverty pretty much. They are actual
Speaker 1: Gypsies that look, I thought they were from Mexico. No,
Speaker 1: I thought so too, man, They're from Andalusia, Spain, and
Speaker 1: their parents were all Romani that were basically kicked out
Speaker 1: of Spain by Franco. And so they're like legitimate Roma
Speaker 1: people the band and the only ones with any money
Speaker 1: right pretty much. And I'm like, wonder what they do, Like,
Speaker 1: are they still they still have that Roma thing? To
Speaker 1: them or are they just like to see you guys later.
Speaker 1: I think from what I've read, they the Roman people
Speaker 1: are are, you know, embrace their heritage. It seems like it,
Speaker 1: I mean to to, almost to a detrimental degree. Well.
Speaker 1: Last September um Manuel Valls Uh, the Interior minister at
Speaker 1: the time in France, declared that Roman Gypsies were incompatible
Speaker 1: with the French way of life and should return home. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Europes really going crazy lately, Like the Dutch are forcing
Speaker 1: all of their Um immigrants to learn Dutch or get out. Basically,
Speaker 1: did they realize how hard Dutches Yeah? Uh, maybe that's
Speaker 1: the point, you know, um. Yeah, And apparently there was
Speaker 1: like a huge push in the Sun newspaper in Britain,
Speaker 1: um get rid of Gypsy beggars from the street. Um.
Speaker 1: And yeah, the Roma in particular are have kind of
Speaker 1: been the butt of all this stuff. It's not just France.
Speaker 1: I saw an article where in Rome Um to Rome
Speaker 1: to Roma camps in Rome were rated. All of the
Speaker 1: people were dragged out taking to the airport put on
Speaker 1: a plane to Bosnia, and a couple of them were
Speaker 1: underage kids whose parents weren't in the group at the time.
Speaker 1: So imagine if you come home from a day of
Speaker 1: trading cars and your kid is in Bosnia because the
Speaker 1: cops just rounded them up because they didn't want you
Speaker 1: to live on the street there any longer. Trading cars. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what they're into big time. They still trade horses too, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but among them they also trade cars too. They'll go
Speaker 1: to like Germany and buy a car for cheap and
Speaker 1: then take it to Romanian sell it for a little
Speaker 1: bit of premium and they make some money. That one
Speaker 1: that's called Craigslist, buddy, kind of romani Craigslist. Good for them. Uh.
Speaker 1: So the point is there, wherever they go in the EU,
Speaker 1: they end up getting the bombs rush basically. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: mean it's called they call it the gypsy problem still
Speaker 1: to this day in the European Union. So, and the
Speaker 1: one place that they can kind of call home is Romania. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think Transylvania too has a pretty robust, fairly
Speaker 1: settled population. You want to understand, I'm sure they do.
Speaker 1: And they were led there actually by a purchase by
Speaker 1: a guy named vlad dra Cool in the fifteenth century.
Speaker 1: I think I've heard of that guy. Yeah, So let's
Speaker 1: talk about how the Roma ended up in their adopted
Speaker 1: homeland of Romania where they come for originally, because apparently
Speaker 1: even they aren't certain. Well, no, that's the one thing
Speaker 1: they're certain about, apparently is where they come from. But
Speaker 1: that's about it because they there's a high illiteracy rates,
Speaker 1: so there's not a lot of record keeping, a lot
Speaker 1: of not a lot of genealogy throughout the years, so
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of it's just kind of
Speaker 1: lost to history. Um. But I think they did settle
Speaker 1: on the fact that they came from India, Josh, which knew, right,
Speaker 1: you're being coy, That is true, and it took a
Speaker 1: very long time. Um, So the Romans say, we're from
Speaker 1: India and they know that. Now, no one knew whether
Speaker 1: that was correct or not. They were called gypsies because
Speaker 1: people thought they were from Egypt. Um, they were in Romania,
Speaker 1: but they crossed the Balkans. Um. It was really just
Speaker 1: very confusing. They were just basically this nomadic group of
Speaker 1: dark skinned people who spoke their own language and didn't
Speaker 1: practice the prevailing religions, so everybody just hated them. Well, finally,
Speaker 1: in the eighteenth century, Uh, a Hungarian scholar theologian I believe,
Speaker 1: decided he wanted to kind of dig into Romani language
Speaker 1: and figure out what the deal was with it, and
Speaker 1: he found quite surprisingly that a lot of it contained Sanskrit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's gonna put you in northern India. And then
Speaker 1: they did some genetic testing to kind of get that
Speaker 1: stuff confirmed and basically came up with the fact that
Speaker 1: they migrated out of India about But the dates get
Speaker 1: a little hazy for sure. Well, some people think that
Speaker 1: as seven D. This as far back as I think
Speaker 1: anyone's willing to go. But then I think a lot
Speaker 1: of historians agree that they're actually descended from a specific
Speaker 1: group who were ejected from northern India because of raids
Speaker 1: from Persia around a thousand to a thousand D. Now,
Speaker 1: was that with the spread of Islam, Yeah, Mohammad of Gosni, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he wanted to spread Islam around and so he brought in. Uh. Well,
Speaker 1: the Hindus organized a group of people to fight that, obviously,
Speaker 1: to fight the Muslims, and they had an army called
Speaker 1: the raj Puts. I think that's as good as any
Speaker 1: or as the the j silent are a Jput No,
Speaker 1: uh No, It's like Maharaja maybe, yeah, that sounds better, uh,
Speaker 1: and they defeated the army. Um, I'm sorry, they were
Speaker 1: defeated and then taking captive and then another group from
Speaker 1: Persia came along the se and they conquered them and
Speaker 1: then took the raj Puts out of Northern India and
Speaker 1: into what is now Turkey, right, and they basically the
Speaker 1: DSPOR has started then supposedly, yeah, that was where they
Speaker 1: think the Romani originally came from. They were displaced Indians
Speaker 1: fighting to protect their homeland. And they basically when they
Speaker 1: were ejected from uh, Northern India, Yeah, by Mohammed of
Speaker 1: Gosni and his people, they became slaves. And then when
Speaker 1: Mohammed of Gosney was defeated by the Celjics, they became
Speaker 1: slaves for the Celjics. Turkey pretty much put upon from
Speaker 1: the get go, right, So they were slaves, servant class
Speaker 1: um laborers for many centuries and they finally made it out.
Speaker 1: I guess once the um. Once the Ottomans defeated, Now
Speaker 1: what's the Christians? I guess when in during the Crusades
Speaker 1: and defeated the Turks and Istan Bull was converted from
Speaker 1: Constantinople the um Rajputs, who were by now the Roma,
Speaker 1: were moved from Turkey across the Balkans into present day
Speaker 1: Transylvania Wallachia, and a large number of them were purchased
Speaker 1: by Vlad dreck Cool, also known as Lad Tepish or
Speaker 1: Vlad the Impaler or Count Dracula. He owned some of
Speaker 1: the first Romani people. How many across I think like
Speaker 1: five hundred or five thousands or something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they suffered tremendously. Anyone who worked for Vaude suffered tremendously. Well,
Speaker 1: lets to do an episode on him. He hated dust
Speaker 1: on the shelves. He did, may fly into a rage. Um.
Speaker 1: It's interesting, though to see their religion these days of Roma,
Speaker 1: like it's it's kind of all over the map. There
Speaker 1: are some Christians, um, there are some Muslims, right, and
Speaker 1: some Hindu. I don't know. Yeah, I think there's not
Speaker 1: like a a single religion for for an ethnic group. Well,
Speaker 1: I guess it's not the weirdest thing. Well no, but
Speaker 1: I mean I think what what happened was there was
Speaker 1: a group of them, and then the group became further
Speaker 1: and further fragmented, and so you can take all of
Speaker 1: the language and the religious police and all of this
Speaker 1: this stuff that is Romani culture, and you're probably gonna
Speaker 1: find some similar elements that you can all trace back
Speaker 1: to about at a d when they crossed over into
Speaker 1: the Balkans and then started to spread from there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I think that makes a lot of sense though,
Speaker 1: because apparently even the tribes today speak different versions of
Speaker 1: the same language. So it's they don't have like a
Speaker 1: codified language, even though they're pushing for that, right they are,
Speaker 1: they think that might help. So they're in Romania right
Speaker 1: what's now present day Romania, UM, And for the next
Speaker 1: four hundred years they are slaves in Romania until Romania
Speaker 1: abolishes slavery, and even now that's still that basically their
Speaker 1: home base. Romania is like, okay, we'll take care of
Speaker 1: you guys, sorry about the last four centuries, UM, And
Speaker 1: no one else in the EU will. But Romania does
Speaker 1: provide for their Romani population more than any other country there.
Speaker 1: But they were subjugated there too, weren't they, or at
Speaker 1: least discriminated against. Yeah, there were slaves for four years
Speaker 1: they well, I mean after that though, weren't they like
Speaker 1: they had a hard time they weren't served in stores,
Speaker 1: and oh yes, it still goes on today in Romania. Okay,
Speaker 1: I thought they were a little like more accepting. No,
Speaker 1: I think that's like kind of them. I think that's
Speaker 1: the That doesn't mean that Romania is just like um
Speaker 1: Roma loving, right, They're just they treat them slightly less
Speaker 1: badly than the rest of your slight Roma tolerant. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's settle on that. Um. But because of the fact
Speaker 1: that they weren't um allowed service in stores and that
Speaker 1: maybe they had low literacy and they couldn't get jobs,
Speaker 1: no one wants to hire them. It was sort of
Speaker 1: this cyclical thing where they had to resort to thievery
Speaker 1: and deception. And it's just how do you get build
Speaker 1: yourself up as a people when you can't work. You
Speaker 1: still need to eat, So how do you eat? You
Speaker 1: maybe steal something, and so it's just sort of the
Speaker 1: constant cycle that to this day they haven't been able
Speaker 1: to break out of. You know, Yeah, it's it's kind
Speaker 1: of a self perpetuating thing. Like they have a bad
Speaker 1: reputation in part because they do behave badly, and they
Speaker 1: behave badly in part because they have a bad reputation,
Speaker 1: so they can't get lag up like thousands of years.
Speaker 1: It's it's unbelievable. Yeah, and there's I think one of
Speaker 1: the probably the hallmarks of um Romanic culture is it's um.
Speaker 1: It just won't assimilate. Like they just don't assimilate into
Speaker 1: whatever culture there and their their visitors, their guests there
Speaker 1: um or parasites or leeches depending on you know where
Speaker 1: you live and how you feel about them. Um, but
Speaker 1: they are not interested in becoming part of your culture
Speaker 1: where you live. Yeah, they seem pretty private and like
Speaker 1: only concerned about their tribe, right. And the thing is
Speaker 1: the problem with that is that tends to make the
Speaker 1: majority of a culture very nervous. Yeah, well, why aren't
Speaker 1: you like eating our liberty cabbage and freedom fries? Like
Speaker 1: what's your problem? Well, you know, I bet they love cabbage. Well, like,
Speaker 1: why why don't you want to like work nine to five?
Speaker 1: And you know that kind of stuff. So when when
Speaker 1: any group won't assimilate and exists on the fringes seemingly,
Speaker 1: you know, by their own accord, that's UM. That definitely
Speaker 1: raises a lot of suspicion in the majority culture. Unless
Speaker 1: you live in Montana, yeah, it's true, so maybe they
Speaker 1: play well, there have friends in Montana. They know I'm kidding.
Speaker 1: So right for this message break, we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about some of the atrocities they suffered during World War two. Yeah, alright,
Speaker 1: it's World War two. The Nazis are doing their thing,
Speaker 1: and they are not just persecuting Jewish people, they are
Speaker 1: persecuting anyone that is a minority that they don't agree with.
Speaker 1: In the Roma were some of the first ones that
Speaker 1: they targeted, and by um what's the word, by percentage
Speaker 1: or of their total population maybe even suffered more than
Speaker 1: the Jewish people as far as like like half of
Speaker 1: the Roman people or something were executed. I think it
Speaker 1: was half of a million were in Germany or in
Speaker 1: the in the lands that Germany conquered. Yeah, and they
Speaker 1: you know, they were. There's a documentary apparently out and
Speaker 1: I read an article on it, but they didn't even
Speaker 1: give the name of it. But it's uh, these filmmakers
Speaker 1: in Toronto, Jewish filmmakers made a documentary about um, the
Speaker 1: Romani Holocaust because it's just not a story you ever hear.
Speaker 1: But the filmmakers Tom Raski and Lynn Binder, like I said,
Speaker 1: we're Jewish Holocaust survivors, children of Holocaust survivors. And the
Speaker 1: director and uh them Roma musician actually helped make it
Speaker 1: so they are still the musical people, not just the
Speaker 1: Gypsy kings. And we said, we don't know the name
Speaker 1: of the documentary. I couldn't find. It's a terrible article.
Speaker 1: It was terrible. Um. So, Yeah, during World War Two,
Speaker 1: the Roma and the Jews were the only two ethnic
Speaker 1: groups that were targeted because of their ethnicity by the Nazis.
Speaker 1: Um And yeah, they suffered tremendously. And they have a
Speaker 1: word for it, um. It means the great devouring. It's
Speaker 1: a poor amos port amos. Yeah, it means the great devouring. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It could also mean rape apparently, which kind of puts
Speaker 1: a button on that experience. Uh. And I didtle more
Speaker 1: reading about it too. Apparently they really annoyed the s
Speaker 1: S as well, because they would not go quietly like
Speaker 1: they would say. They would have them dig their own graves,
Speaker 1: stand naked in front of them just so they could
Speaker 1: chew them and push them in. And uh, he said
Speaker 1: that they wouldn't just stand there and like take their
Speaker 1: death gracefully. They would yell and scream and run around
Speaker 1: and try and dodge bullets, and I guess it was
Speaker 1: pretty sensible. Well yeah, exactly, but I guess that's part
Speaker 1: of the you know, the survivor in them, because they've
Speaker 1: been booted all around. You know, they gotta do what
Speaker 1: they can. So like this guy's pointing a gun at me,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try and get out of here, even if
Speaker 1: I'm naked, sad, And the rest of the majority of
Speaker 1: culture was like, no, you just stand still, right, what's
Speaker 1: wrong with you? Unbelievable. So one of the more shameful
Speaker 1: but also telling things about the Roma Holocaust was the
Speaker 1: way it was treated afterwards. It was basically unmentioned at
Speaker 1: the Nuremberg trials, um, which you know, we're to address
Speaker 1: the Holocaust as a whole, you know, and just kind
Speaker 1: of ignored like this one whole thing because well it
Speaker 1: was the Roma apparently. And then, uh, one s S
Speaker 1: officer in history has was ever persecuted or prosecuted for
Speaker 1: crimes against Roma during World War Two, just one person,
Speaker 1: even though half a million Roma died. So why, my friend,
Speaker 1: we I don't think we posted the question, Uh, why
Speaker 1: did they think they came from eagypt To begin with oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: well apparently it was just a complete accident. Yeah. Well, um,
Speaker 1: they came from northern India originally, and a lot of
Speaker 1: Roma have a dark complexion um and look the part
Speaker 1: maybe a little to uh to an untrained eye. Um.
Speaker 1: And they ended up settling in the Greek Isles for
Speaker 1: a little bit or some at some point some Roma
Speaker 1: did and around there the place where they settled, there
Speaker 1: was a place where they came from along the Adriatic
Speaker 1: had been known as Little Egypt. To the people in
Speaker 1: Peloponnesia thought oh, well, they're Egyptians, so they started calling
Speaker 1: them gypsies clearly because they live in Little Egypt and
Speaker 1: they have dark complexions. That's interesting. So what about these days?
Speaker 1: It's interesting history. But these days they still, like we said,
Speaker 1: have a lot of are still musicians. A lot of
Speaker 1: them still uh pick up camp and move. Some of
Speaker 1: them still trade horses. Uh. They're known for being metal
Speaker 1: workers and uh, well a lot of them have trades
Speaker 1: that were learned as slaves in Romania that have been
Speaker 1: passed down and are still practiced today. So like, for example,
Speaker 1: some group that was that were copper workers as slaves
Speaker 1: in Romania. Their ancestors were the groups today do scrap metal.
Speaker 1: That's what they deal with, so they know what they're
Speaker 1: doing with with metal. Like, there're a lot of the
Speaker 1: trades that a Roma clan does for a living. Yeah,
Speaker 1: um is passed down from their their days of slaves
Speaker 1: in Romania. Yeah, and the fact that they're still musicians
Speaker 1: today is definitely one of those because they found they
Speaker 1: could make a few bucks by even appearing trying to
Speaker 1: appear more exotic and do performances and look at us
Speaker 1: where the weird exotic Roman people or the Gypsies. Look
Speaker 1: how colorful our clothes are exactly And I'm playing my
Speaker 1: finger tambourine while you're getting your pocket picked perhaps out.
Speaker 1: That's that's something that happened. So was it? Because apparently
Speaker 1: the media is totally cool with just perpetuating lies and
Speaker 1: untruths about the Roma and as not to be trusted
Speaker 1: anymore than they purport. The Roma should shouldn't be the
Speaker 1: media the media reports like um. I read that in
Speaker 1: that article I read in The Guardian by Dr Finnesska,
Speaker 1: the Auroma authority, she points out that I want some
Speaker 1: British paper said that a Roma woman who they named
Speaker 1: like by name named her son Lucifer, which is apparently
Speaker 1: wholly untrue. But this is in like the nineties that
Speaker 1: that papers were printing this, So apparently the Roma have
Speaker 1: always been this group that you can kick around and
Speaker 1: everybody's cool with basically with you kicking him around. So
Speaker 1: media reports of the stuff that they do are should
Speaker 1: be taken with a grain of salt. Yeah, I think so,
Speaker 1: because they're very often conflated. Yeah, but the point this
Speaker 1: article makes, this is by Kristen Konger of Stuff Mom
Speaker 1: Never Told You. She does make the point that a
Speaker 1: lot of it is reputation, but a lot of it
Speaker 1: has earned reputation because again, they were kind of force
Speaker 1: from town to town, and they were poverty stricken, and
Speaker 1: so they may have had to pick some pockets here
Speaker 1: and there to put food in the mouths. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, don't read, don't believe everything you're read
Speaker 1: in the papers. Um. Sociologically speaking, the EurOMA constitute what's
Speaker 1: called the middleman minority, which is a group that refuses
Speaker 1: to assimilate UM and but still it is discriminated against,
Speaker 1: but still maintains enough UM communication or contact with the
Speaker 1: larger culture that they can benefit economically from that, Like
Speaker 1: they can still sell you a car, trade you a car. Uh.
Speaker 1: They're paternalistic, so it's um super old school, like the
Speaker 1: women are expected to stay home and work the else
Speaker 1: and the men may or may not work at all. Uh.
Speaker 1: Young girls, they still have arranged marriages even to this day. Um.
Speaker 1: Getting their daughters matched up with another another person of
Speaker 1: the Romanic cultures is important to them. And apparently teenagers
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, like as young as twelve. It's a
Speaker 1: little weird, is that right? Yeah? Um, and they because
Speaker 1: of the literacy rate. I think it's especially hard on
Speaker 1: young women. They don't care very much about educating them, right. Um.
Speaker 1: And then employment is just kind of a side thing
Speaker 1: you do when you need money. For the most part.
Speaker 1: Part of that is that's just kind of part of
Speaker 1: Romani culture. But it asks the question, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: do they is that part of Romani culture because they
Speaker 1: haven't been able to get a job, or do they
Speaker 1: just not work? And that's part of Romani culture, right?
Speaker 1: You know, which which side of the coin has actually
Speaker 1: created this this situation. But they apparently we're giving jobs
Speaker 1: under communism in Eastern Europe. Uh, and went to work
Speaker 1: in factories and things like that for a little while,
Speaker 1: but then after Communism disintegrated, the the Romo were fired.
Speaker 1: First apparently they were the persones out the door. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're like the bosses no longer the boss. You're fired.
Speaker 1: I'm firing you. Yeah. And then of course from that
Speaker 1: rose more complaints of stealing and thievery and uh a
Speaker 1: lot of it too. Isn't just uh illegal activities, but
Speaker 1: a lot of begging and panhandling and stuff that apparently
Speaker 1: in cheek districts in Paris is unsightly. So it sounds
Speaker 1: like from this description that Romani women are they do
Speaker 1: almost all of the work, especially around the household. They do,
Speaker 1: and then men may or may not even have jobs. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but they're they're these they do existing clans, and these
Speaker 1: clans do have tribunals to handle disputes, and the men
Speaker 1: kind of run all that off, like the government of
Speaker 1: the of the village or group. Yeah, whereas the women
Speaker 1: are like running the household stuff. But the men are
Speaker 1: apparently totally clearly dominant. Yeah. Ah, I think that's true.
Speaker 1: And unless it's just something we read, that's not because
Speaker 1: I read one of the filmmakers for that documentary said,
Speaker 1: you know, we're told that they aren't even that nomadic anymore.
Speaker 1: I'm like, but that flies in the face of everything
Speaker 1: I've read so well, it's in this article as well.
Speaker 1: It says like a lot of them want to settle
Speaker 1: down and are trying to make um, trying to establish
Speaker 1: roots in places, but they get kicked out eventually. I
Speaker 1: think they fared pretty well here in the States apparently,
Speaker 1: so I don't know about like, I'm not saying they're
Speaker 1: they're rising to CEO positions or anything, but I think
Speaker 1: they haven't been h like kicked around like they have
Speaker 1: been in the EU at least. Well, America loves it's
Speaker 1: traveling romanticize thing, you know, yeah, the the open road. Yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. So anybody who's on the open
Speaker 1: road is you know, romanticized a little bit more here,
Speaker 1: I think than in Europe. I think you're right, Um,
Speaker 1: this this takes a toll though, all the all the
Speaker 1: poverty and the moving around and the lack of education
Speaker 1: is going to take a toll on on any ethnicity,
Speaker 1: and it's definitely happening with the Romani because they apparently
Speaker 1: um compared to similar populations in Slovakia, Ireland, Czech Republican
Speaker 1: Bulgaria die about six to ten years earlier, and infant
Speaker 1: mortality rates are double and triple of those in surrounding
Speaker 1: ethnic groups, which is disturbing. Which you can say, oh,
Speaker 1: that's right, Well, their poverty stricken. Uh, they don't eat
Speaker 1: the most nutritious meals around because their poverty stricken. They
Speaker 1: don't have easy access to healthcare. On the other side
Speaker 1: of the coin, apparently, um, they also typically shunned um
Speaker 1: local medicine in favor of their own medicine, which is
Speaker 1: often homeopathic apparently. And so for example, tuberculosis is just
Speaker 1: like a it's like a fatal disease, even though if
Speaker 1: you step outside of camp into town, it's not right
Speaker 1: if you just go to that hospital right there, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not Uh. Yeah, here's the illiteracy rate of romani
Speaker 1: girls can't read. Yeah, and apparently most romantic kids have
Speaker 1: either gender don't complete high school. So all of this,
Speaker 1: the fact that they are poverty stricken, that they have
Speaker 1: lower life expectancy, higher informortality rates, lower education, higher literacy rates,
Speaker 1: it's tough to get a leg up, especially when the
Speaker 1: entire world basically looks at you like you are never
Speaker 1: to be trusted. Yeah, so what do you do? I
Speaker 1: will tell you what you do after this tam break.
Speaker 1: I'm dying to know a solution. Yeah, well, you know
Speaker 1: it's it's a long run. We already talked about the solution.
Speaker 1: But you organize, you get together and you say, hey,
Speaker 1: we are this group of people. We um we have
Speaker 1: a history, we have a past. Because Dr finnessca Isabella
Speaker 1: Finnesska points out quite rightly, I think the easiest way
Speaker 1: to dehumanize people is to strip them of any context,
Speaker 1: any history, and that means that the Roma are right
Speaker 1: for exploitation when it comes to that dehumanization, because they
Speaker 1: really don't have a history. Like historians think maybe that
Speaker 1: they came out of northern India thousand a thousand years ago.
Speaker 1: They probably did, but it's not entirely confirmed. Right. Can
Speaker 1: I read this quote by her? Yeah, it's like the
Speaker 1: saddest thing I've ever read, and this is by Finesska.
Speaker 1: The Roma have no heroes, no myths of origin of
Speaker 1: a great liberation, of the founding of a nation, of
Speaker 1: a promised land. And that's like pretty much puts the
Speaker 1: Jerry on topic, right, since pretty much every other culture
Speaker 1: on the planet does have that. It makes them appear shiftless, aimless, lazy,
Speaker 1: like so lazy they don't even care about their own culture,
Speaker 1: so how can anybody else care about their culture? Well, finally,
Speaker 1: some Roma got together in the seventies and said, we're
Speaker 1: gonna start being Roma Romani activists, Like we're misunderstood. And
Speaker 1: I think from this interaction inside and out and the
Speaker 1: separation between us and the rest of the world, there's
Speaker 1: a this misunderstanding is creating some self prophecies, self fulfilling prophecies,
Speaker 1: self perpetuating myths. And they got together and said, okay,
Speaker 1: we come from Northern India, India. We want you to
Speaker 1: sponsor like a congress, and they did in Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was very awesome, the first World Romanic Congress. And uh
Speaker 1: there were Romani from fourteen different countries and they picked
Speaker 1: out a flag and an anthem, which just sounds so
Speaker 1: weird that you would have to do that in the seventies.
Speaker 1: I'll bet it's exuberant. I'm sure it was. And um
Speaker 1: oh you think, I'll bet the Gypsy can can play
Speaker 1: it really well and it probably sounds like Beirut, you
Speaker 1: know that band. He sounds like yeah, um m, yeah,
Speaker 1: uh so it was. You know, it was a big
Speaker 1: unifying moment and a rare unifying moment for the people
Speaker 1: in and because they had the sponsorship of India though
Speaker 1: uh the u N had to they had to maybe
Speaker 1: they really wanted to officially recognized them as an ethnic
Speaker 1: group in So that was a victory seven years later. Yeah,
Speaker 1: wouldn't you say, well, what's um, what's sad though? Is it?
Speaker 1: I guess the one of the more prevalent proposals for
Speaker 1: getting Romani like a leg up is for them to
Speaker 1: assault assimilate culturally. Apparently nothing's ever really going to change
Speaker 1: until they are willing to assimilate culturally. Um. And that's
Speaker 1: kind of like the crux of the matter. The problem
Speaker 1: is is if if you, um, if you you start
Speaker 1: to assimilate, you lose your culture. Yeah, which is happening somewhat.
Speaker 1: You know. They they're already having a hard time holding
Speaker 1: onto their dialect because of its fractured nature with the
Speaker 1: different tribes. But like you said, assimilation it's a bit
Speaker 1: of a sad thing, you know, let go of your
Speaker 1: own past that's already checkered. So uh, I don't know,
Speaker 1: that would that mean the end of the Romani. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean you you can also make the case that,
Speaker 1: you know, the Chinese have been um uh middlemen might
Speaker 1: no already, Jewish people have been middleman minority in different places.
Speaker 1: Um Any group that comes to a new place and
Speaker 1: settles and then just kind of maintains its ethnic identity
Speaker 1: for a while is a middleman minority. And you can
Speaker 1: look around and say, well, you know, Chinese have assimilated
Speaker 1: into the US pretty fully, but you still understand there's
Speaker 1: such a thing as you know, Chinese ethnic and cultural
Speaker 1: identity not dead Chinatown in most major cities. So I
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe they'll be like Romani Town in San
Speaker 1: Francisco a hundred years from now. In San Francisco, the
Speaker 1: president will be Romani. You know, you know who knows,
Speaker 1: But it won't happen apparently, I guess that's the best.
Speaker 1: That's the the deal that's on the table. Yeah, we'll
Speaker 1: take care of you, but you have to stop being
Speaker 1: outside fringe dwelling weirdos. Well and until there, like this
Speaker 1: whole Paris deal. That the reason why they're shuffling him
Speaker 1: out of this one district, it's because they were shuffled
Speaker 1: out of another district. That's yeah. And it happens on
Speaker 1: a macro scale as well. Yeah, like not just within
Speaker 1: the city, within Europe as a whole. Well, and one
Speaker 1: of the I can't remember the ladies name, but one
Speaker 1: of the French UM bureaucrats said, we we we just
Speaker 1: need to get them back to where they came from,
Speaker 1: back to Romania. Oh well yeah, it's like really he
Speaker 1: just said that, you know. Yeah. Well, plus also shows
Speaker 1: a little bit of historic I literacy. Um, but do
Speaker 1: you want to talk about other terms for him depending
Speaker 1: on where they are. So in the UK they call
Speaker 1: him travelers. Uh. In Rome and Spain they're called gitanas,
Speaker 1: So the Gypsy Gypsy Kings are technically gaitanas. Um. Let's see.
Speaker 1: In Germany and Italy they call him Sinto. I can't
Speaker 1: believe I thought the Gypsy Kings were from Mexico. That's
Speaker 1: pretty ignorant. No, No, I think most people thought that.
Speaker 1: Who aren't like into world music, you know? But I
Speaker 1: heard of the Gypsy Kings or whatever. You know, it's
Speaker 1: they see they play huge guitars. Okay, thank you, you
Speaker 1: know I'm with you on now. I just didn't want
Speaker 1: to be the white guy. It's like their Mexican right.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's like that. Uh so that's the
Speaker 1: Gypsy Kings. You got anything else on gypsies on Roma? Man?
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I know, but the title of the article
Speaker 1: is how Gypsies work. And I think it'll attract listeners
Speaker 1: because people. I don't think a lot of people understand
Speaker 1: what the heck it is. I didn't what Roma. Well,
Speaker 1: it makes you think, like, well, they're from Rome. Yeah, Romania. No,
Speaker 1: I wonder if that means that Romania is from Rome.
Speaker 1: This is one of the more confusing episodes we've done.
Speaker 1: As it turns out, if you want to learn more
Speaker 1: about the Roma or Romani, don't take those words. Type
Speaker 1: gypsy into the search bar at house to works dot
Speaker 1: com and it will bring up this article. And I said,
Speaker 1: search bars means it's time for listener mail. Uh. This
Speaker 1: is a question post to us from Josh Roberts of Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. Hey, guys, I'm a big fan. I found
Speaker 1: the podcast last year and downloaded a few episodes, but
Speaker 1: it caught my interests and ended up going back to
Speaker 1: the beginning and I've listened to every episode on iTunes. Josh,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this, but we have
Speaker 1: a lot more episodes than that, my friend, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: know that. Are you talking to just the Josh Roberts,
Speaker 1: it's not Josh Clark. Yeah. We have a whole page
Speaker 1: now with all of our episodes on our website that
Speaker 1: stuff dot com. iTunes features the most recent three one episodes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we have like six d and thirty something episodes.
Speaker 1: So he may know that, but maybe not go back
Speaker 1: on list of the old ones that they're pretty funny.
Speaker 1: There is some good ones in there, not the real
Speaker 1: old ones, but you know, after maybe fifty they really
Speaker 1: started to get good, talking so fast and like it's
Speaker 1: it's a total jackass. And we left the cave that
Speaker 1: we recorded in the can uh Okay. So he's writing
Speaker 1: because he has an important question to ask. Imagine that
Speaker 1: time travel is real, and you and go to any
Speaker 1: time place in all of history, and you could bring
Speaker 1: one thing with you. My question is where would you
Speaker 1: go and what would you bring. I've been asking people
Speaker 1: this question since I was sixteen. Now I'm forty two
Speaker 1: years old, and I've had many interesting and some disturbing
Speaker 1: answers about our money making ploys like the old back
Speaker 1: to the future, bringing a sports almanac. Many people talk
Speaker 1: about going back to Mozart Beethoven's time to bring and
Speaker 1: bringing a recording device, and then of course, other notable
Speaker 1: answers include shooting Hitler, stopping the murder of JFK. R.
Speaker 1: M Olk. My favorite answer is going back to the
Speaker 1: late fourteen hundreds with a battleship and making sure the
Speaker 1: Europeans never reached the America's Yeah, so we have to
Speaker 1: answer this now. My question to Josh Roberts is is
Speaker 1: this something that are you gonna go come back to
Speaker 1: present daytime? Because you know, what good would it go
Speaker 1: due to go record Beethoven if you're stuck there or
Speaker 1: the recording of Beethoven there's a caveat so if you
Speaker 1: can come back to present daytime. I've thought about this,
Speaker 1: I haven't had the benefit of thinking. Just keep thinking.
Speaker 1: I think I might go back to the time of
Speaker 1: Jesus and biblical times because well documented my constant struggle
Speaker 1: with my religious upbringing over the years. He's going and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go to the source, and I'm taking a
Speaker 1: video camera with unlimited amounts of you know, recording space,
Speaker 1: let's say, yeah, a bunch of them and I can
Speaker 1: bring this back, And I think it would I think
Speaker 1: it would delight everyone. I think Christians would be delighted
Speaker 1: because you have real footage of a sermon on the
Speaker 1: mount and these I think delighted might be understating the
Speaker 1: reaction you would get. It would be over the moon
Speaker 1: about having original recordings of Jesus doing this thing. I
Speaker 1: would think so. And I think it would also be
Speaker 1: helpful to just sort of sort out what the deal
Speaker 1: was and uh say, you know what are these stories
Speaker 1: out glory? Are they? Did they really happen? Am I
Speaker 1: going to go back and see people walking on the
Speaker 1: water and come back and say, hey, you know what,
Speaker 1: it's all absolutely true everyone. I think it would be
Speaker 1: like the greatest discovery and religion that has had such
Speaker 1: an impact on world history. So that's my boom, That's
Speaker 1: what I'm doing. That's a good one. Thanks. Um. Uh.
Speaker 1: Let's see, I should have sent this to you ahead
Speaker 1: of time. I feel bad for springing it on you. Well,
Speaker 1: I'll just give a cursory one. I would I would
Speaker 1: go to um. I would go to probably some place
Speaker 1: that's kind of an exotic locale, now, but like sixty
Speaker 1: years ago when it was super exotic. Not so. I
Speaker 1: would say, you know what, I would go to, like um,
Speaker 1: Polynesia or Cuba. Yeah, in okay, and I realized they
Speaker 1: were nowhere near the same thing. But I would go
Speaker 1: to I would go to Cuba in nine and the
Speaker 1: thing I would take would be interesting. So you just
Speaker 1: go for a vacation forever vacation. Yeah all right. See,
Speaker 1: I would recommend you go back even further to Cuba
Speaker 1: before there was anyone there with like a big gun,
Speaker 1: and then you own Cuba. I don't want to own Cuba.
Speaker 1: And like I like the local flavor, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like I like the local flavor. That's like
Speaker 1: not been Uh there's not like an old navy anywhere
Speaker 1: near this local flavor. It's like, gotcha, totally local flavor.
Speaker 1: But they also have you know, mohitos already. Okay, So
Speaker 1: you would go get away from the things of man
Speaker 1: back in the day with your wife where they have
Speaker 1: alcohol served. Yes, it's a great answer. Thanks. I love it.
Speaker 1: It was off the cuff and just I can just
Speaker 1: picture you and you me kicking it in nineteen twenty
Speaker 1: and Cuba, Cuba. Yeah, very one of those shirts to
Speaker 1: be one of those guys who were Cuban shirts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what are those called the Cuban shirts? Yeah, there's noth name.
Speaker 1: I can't remember. I'm sure it's like the Cruiseware right, yeah,
Speaker 1: but with two pockets and the unnecessary seams and there's
Speaker 1: the same somewhere. John Hodgman and Jesse Thorner a going
Speaker 1: we can't hear you all right, Well that was it
Speaker 1: for Romani. If you want to hang out with me
Speaker 1: and Chuck outside of this podcast, you can. You can
Speaker 1: find us on Instagram, Pinterest, Twitter, Facebook. You can just
Speaker 1: look up Stuff you Should Know s Y, s K,
Speaker 1: Josh and Chuck on your favorite web browser. We're gonna
Speaker 1: bring up all that stuff. You can send us an
Speaker 1: email to Stuff Podcast at Discovery dot com and hang
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