1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:22,479 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan, Rexburg, Idaho. It's one 2 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: of those places I've never actually been to Idaho. I 3 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: have been on the western bank of the Snake River 4 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: in Oregon and have looked over into Idaho, and it's beautiful, beautiful, 5 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: very appealing to the eye. And the environment is incredibly 6 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: varied there. You know, you got the rockies that run 7 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: through there, you got these you know, kind of high 8 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: desert plains and all these sorts of things. But never 9 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: in my imagination did first off, did I think that 10 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: I would talk about the state of Idaho as much 11 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: as I have, I guess over the past four years, 12 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: five years, however long it's spend. I want to focus 13 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: on Rexpert today and one of the citizens of Expert, 14 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: a female citizen. She has been documented in the news 15 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: now for load of these many years, perhaps one of 16 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: the biggest mysteries surrounding this bizarre, murderous environment that was 17 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,839 Speaker 1: inhabited by Chad Daybell and Lorie Valor Dabeill. Today we're 18 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: going to discuss finally the findings of the autopsy of 19 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: Tammy Dabell. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body 20 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: Bags Dave mac been waiting for info. You know that 21 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: there's that part of me that wants to know, But 22 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: there's that old investigator within me that knows why I 23 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: should not know. You know what I'm saying, Because it's 24 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: not about how much stuff can be flooded out into 25 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: the media, how much data, how much information. It's about 26 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 1: a trial that is going to determine whether or not 27 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: you're going to have individuals held responsible for murder. 28 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 2: There are shocking parts of this case every day, meaning 29 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 2: because we've dealt with so many other aspects of the 30 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: relationship between Lourie Valo and Chad day Bell, and when 31 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 2: you look at those two, if you put them at 32 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: the top of the pyramid chant, you know you're going 33 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: to find a lot of death and destruction of people 34 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: and families, all because of Chad day Bell and his 35 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 2: first real big follower, Lori Valo. We could deal with 36 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: that later on. Today we're talking about Tammy Dave Bell. 37 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 2: Tammy was forty nine years old. She and Chad day 38 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 2: Bell married in March of nineteen ninety. They had twenty 39 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 2: eight years together, five children together, just a wonderful little family. 40 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 2: I don't know if you're aware of this. But Tammy 41 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: day Bell was somebody that she was very respected. Co 42 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 2: workers said she was a computer whiz. Meanwhile, Chad day 43 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: Bell was really he didn't have much of a professional career. Really. 44 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 2: The only thing Chad had with the books that he 45 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 2: wrote that took Mormonism and really went down the wrong 46 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 2: rabbit hole and twisted and turned and whatever. But it 47 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 2: was Tammy day Bell that actually was the one person 48 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: that that family could count on. 49 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: The rock in that family. And I'm glad you mentioned 50 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: this because she was a rock in the community as well. 51 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: You remember when you were in well elementary school, middle school, 52 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: junior high I think when we were kids that still 53 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: call it junior high and high school. There was some 54 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: media specialists, the librarian and everyone. It didn't matter what 55 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: grades you were in, You're going to pass through the 56 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: library at some point in tom that's that person. That's 57 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: what Tammy did for a living. So any group of 58 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: people that passed through the schools there in Rexburg got hod. 59 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: They knew Tammy. They knew her from church and whatnot 60 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: and everything else that she was engaged with. And these 61 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: these children that her and Chad had produced together, these 62 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: were adult children now and they were in her life 63 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: and children for a family. They're like little ships that 64 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: are set of saale left. You bring them to bring 65 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: them to adulthood. You know, they go forth and you 66 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: know they're carrying your name with them. Good behavior or 67 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: bad behavior, they're known, and certainly she was known as well. 68 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 2: And it was a good known, you know, regardless of 69 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: what people thought of Chad, Tammy day Bell was looked 70 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 2: upon with a respect and a dignity that really and 71 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: truly did not fit her demise. To really make this short, 72 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: because I know we've covered so many things associated with 73 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: this story. Kind of catching up a little bit. Tammy 74 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 2: and Chad have been married for twenty eight years, they 75 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 2: had the five children. When it came down to October 76 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: of twenty nineteen, there was a lot happening with Chad 77 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 2: day Bell kind of being the puppet master. And that's 78 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: why we're dealing with at forty nine years old, a 79 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 2: seemingly healthy woman died in her sleep. Suppose that's what 80 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 2: we're told. This is the nuts and bolts. Okay, we 81 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 2: have Lori Vallo on Lori Valo day Bell on trial 82 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: right now for the murder of her own children, and 83 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 2: then an accessory with Tammy Day Bell's passing. Most of 84 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: us were totally shocked to find out two weeks after 85 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: Tammy Day Bell passes away, Chad day Bell marries Lori 86 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 2: Vallo on the beach in Hawaii. Two weeks. That's it, 87 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: twenty eight years. 88 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: How do you do that? 89 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 2: You couldn't wait twenty eight days, no matter of fact, Joe, 90 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 2: you know what. It came out in court that he 91 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:47,239 Speaker 2: Chad introduced Lori Vallo as his future wife a week 92 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 2: after Tammy Day Bell was dead. Okay, at first there 93 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 2: was no autopsy. How does a forty nine year old 94 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 2: woman just die in her sleep? Chad let it be 95 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 2: known that she had been suffering to a number of 96 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 2: medical issues. Friends said she wasn't she was trending for 97 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: a marathon. So we have these two differences of opinion. 98 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 2: Chad and Tammy's children claim they were the reason there 99 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 2: was no autopsy done on their mother. I find that 100 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: hard to believe, but that's what they said on CBS News. 101 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 2: They said, no, it was not our dad. We were 102 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 2: the ones that didn't want an autopsy. I kind of 103 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 2: have a feeling that Chad told them we don't want 104 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: an autopsy. 105 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: For those that aren't familiar in the medical legal environment, 106 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: the children do not make that decision. That decision is 107 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: actually made by the living spouse. That's how this works. 108 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: He is the one that would have made that final 109 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: determination as to whether or not her remains would have 110 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: been examined by a medical examiner a forensic pathologist, and 111 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: of course they weren't. That decision alone is one thing, 112 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: But the other piece to this is that we've got 113 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: essentially a corner that was not in attendance physically at 114 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: the scene of the death. There's any number of ways 115 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: we could look at that. You begin to think about, well, 116 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: what leads you to the conclusion that this is okay 117 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: to release this body from the scene directly to a 118 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: funeral home without seeing the body in its context? And 119 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: I've talked about this in a previous episode about the 120 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: Dabell family and specifically about Tammy. You get one shot 121 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: at seeing her in the context of that environment in 122 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: which she in dwelt and which she passed away. Because 123 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: the body is going to give you certain information, but 124 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: the environment always gives you certain information as well. And 125 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: when you take it, take the body and the scene 126 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: out of context, you can go down any number of 127 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: and any number of routes with this, and you're never 128 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: going to come to a sufficient conclusion. It's certainly not 129 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: as satisfying as you would if you went physically to 130 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: the scene an observed Tammy's body in place, maybe even 131 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: have drawn toxicology. If you're in you can do this. 132 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: We do this externally, where we draw blood externally, we 133 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: draw urine externally, and at least have that. But that 134 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: that wasn't done, David, And of course that's water in 135 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: the bridge. 136 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 2: I got to ask you this, though, a forty nine 137 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 2: year old woman dies and she's not under it, She's 138 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 2: not being treated by a doctor for any kind of condition. 139 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: You know, it's not like she had a weekly appointment 140 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: with a doctor that was managing her care. So it 141 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 2: just strains other than somebody saying it's either a religious 142 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: issue or something along those lines. We can't. We don't 143 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 2: need to do an autopsy. She just died, she was 144 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: already sick. We knew it. Who do you believe that now? Granted, 145 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 2: when Tammy dave Bell died, they didn't know. Police did 146 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: not know that Chad dave Bell was involved with Lori 147 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: Valo in any way, shape or form. They didn't know 148 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: at the time that Louri Valo had two children that 149 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 2: were missing. They didn't know that Lori Valo's husband died 150 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 2: under weird circumstances the previous summer in July. So all 151 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: of these things that we know now they did not 152 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 2: know in rest in Idaho at that time. But I'm 153 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 2: really curious, and you mentioned the coroner not being there. 154 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 2: We've got a forty nine year old woman dies in Rexburg, Idaho. 155 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 2: They bury her across state lines in her home in Utah. Right. 156 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 2: I guess my confusion here is how is it not 157 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 2: deemed a suspicious death? We got to find out more 158 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: when a forty nine year old, seeming a healthy woman dies, 159 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: and who actually makes that call? 160 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: Joe. By law, it's a corner. Corner is going to 161 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: trump anything any wishes that the family have. Okay, just 162 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: let that be known. If the corner says that there 163 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: shall be an examination, there shall be an examination. By law. 164 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: Now they'll take the family's thoughts into consideration. But this 165 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: is precisely why corners are supposed to go to scenes. 166 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: This is precisely why bodies are supposed to be examined 167 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: at the scene, hopefully more thoroughly, because once that moment 168 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: has gone you know the old legal adage about you 169 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: can't unring the bell. Once that tone has gone forward, 170 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: you cannot recapture it, and it really handicapped this case 171 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: because you're searching for answers, you're trying to explain, as 172 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: you stated, this young woman, and she is a young woman, 173 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: she's forty nine years old. The picture of health. Apparently 174 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: you do not rely specifically on what the husband actually relates. 175 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 1: Because here, here's the thing. If she doesn't have an 176 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: attending physician, Okay, she doesn't have an attending physician, she 177 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: doesn't have a pre existing condition, she doesn't have some 178 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: kind of underlying disease. Who's going to sign the death certificate? Well, 179 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: the corner has to sign the death certificate. And if 180 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: the corner's going to sign the death certificate, what are 181 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: you going to list as a cause of death if 182 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: you don't know, or are you just gonna make it up, 183 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: or are you just gonna make a guess? Because in 184 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: Tammy Davelle's case, what was concluded at the scene that 185 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: turned out not to be true, that her death was 186 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: actually related to a cardiac event, there's a term that 187 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: you hear a lot in the military that's part of 188 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: our vernacular now. I think because of all the military 189 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: movies that are out there, particularly in recent history, and 190 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: its eyes on. I wonder what that means for most 191 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: of us. Eyes On is that you have a presence 192 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: in a location where you can visualize something. Some people 193 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: refer to this as visualization. I've actually heard this term 194 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: called actualization, which I've never really understood, but I do 195 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: know this. When it comes to the death of Tammy Davell, 196 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: and you've got this relatively young woman who use by 197 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: most estimates, the picture of health, it's important to have 198 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: eyes on, and I think that you need a corner 199 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: that's there that can observe the environment, observe the people 200 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: in her environment, and most importantly, can observe her. We 201 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 1: think about that. 202 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 2: Dave following along with criminal cases dealing with death. I 203 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 2: have learned so much listening to you, as have many 204 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 2: of us. Okay, because there are certain things we just 205 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 2: don't know. And I'm going to ask you this because 206 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 2: and I hope it's not a stupid question, but you 207 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 2: have in this particular case, everybody thought she was in 208 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 2: good health seemed to be in good health and she 209 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 2: dies in her sleep. Her husband describes her coughing, and 210 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: he describes her as being a little sick prior to death. 211 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: But she was under no treatment of any doctor and 212 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: she dies. Now you have the paramedics. They call nine one. 213 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 2: When paramedics come out and they declare her debt. I guess, 214 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 2: and I know it's different in every state. Who actually 215 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 2: makes that declaration. If you have somebody who dies at home, 216 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 2: is the corner called to the scene right away to 217 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 2: come and see the entire situation as it's laid out, 218 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: even if it doesn't look like anything criminal has taken place. 219 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: First off, in a case like this, everything is up 220 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: for questioning. I encourage anybody when you're dealing with something 221 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: that's discomplicated, you have to have answers. They have to 222 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: be scientifically sound the responses that you receive, and with 223 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: any kind of scientific pursuit, inquiry into these events, particularly 224 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: as it applies to death, is key. An inquiry means 225 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: you're going to have to be present in that moment 226 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: and to observe you have to have demonstrative evidence the 227 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: one baseline, where in most cases, not every but in 228 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: most cases where a death is not necessarily reportable to 229 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: the corner. It's where you have an individual that is 230 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,959 Speaker 1: in a terminal phase, where they've been diagnosed, and most 231 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: of the time that's going to throw them into the 232 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: category of hospice care. I think many of our listeners 233 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: are familiar with hospice and unfortunately, some are incredibly familiar 234 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: with it because they've had to endure a death of 235 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: a loved one. Many times those deaths are not reportable. 236 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: The only person that's actually contacted in a case like 237 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: that is going to be a hospice nurse. Well, I 238 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: think that you and I, Dave can agree that Tammy 239 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: day Belt didn't fit into the status. 240 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: I compare her to at forty nine, and compare that 241 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 2: to my father in law who died at seventy three. 242 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 2: He was under hospice care for the weeks leading up 243 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 2: to his passing, and we all gathered around as he 244 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 2: got worse and said our goodbyes. And when he passed, 245 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 2: everybody was on HND. We knew it was coming. Tammy 246 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: Dabell went to bed the night before. She's forty nine 247 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: years old and she dies. And that's why I'm saying 248 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: this is not normal. I would expect somebody's going to 249 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: be called. But here's the quack, And this is what 250 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 2: I wanted to pitch Joe is. At the time Tammy 251 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 2: day Bell died, nobody in the law enforcement community was 252 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: aware that there was something going on between the Valo 253 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 2: children being missing, because at that time they weren't even 254 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 2: listed as missing. Nobody was looking for them at that time. 255 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 2: When Tammy died, they didn't tie together that Chad Dabell 256 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 2: might be in a relationship with somebody other than his wife. 257 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: Nobody knew that. They looked at this as a forty 258 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: nine year old woman died in her bed, her husband 259 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 2: by her side kind of thing. So in that moment, 260 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: even though it seems innocent, I have to challenge somebody 261 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: being able to walk away from a forty nine year old, 262 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 2: seemingly healthy woman and just say, oh, it's natural causes. 263 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: That's not natural at forty nine these days. Maybe back 264 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 2: when people died at fifty it would be, but not now. 265 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: Not now. We're talking about life expectancy now has kind 266 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: of gone past the marker of eighty. I think in 267 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: many circumstances, and I love what you said just a 268 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: second ago, o Dave about this. You don't know what's 269 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: going on. I'm from Many people know I'm from New Orleans, 270 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: and so I've written out multiple hurricanes. One of the 271 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: things about being in the middle of the hurricane, one 272 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: of the eeriest things is being in the eye when 273 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: the eye passes directly over in anybody that's never been 274 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: in that environment, if you were to be plopped down 275 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: in the eye of a hurricane on the ground, you 276 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: wouldn't know that you were in the middle of a storm, 277 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: a massive storm. It's all out on the periphery and 278 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: it's swirling, but you can't really see it, and that's 279 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: kind of that's maybe a poor illustration, but that's kind 280 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: of what we were faced with. I think that many 281 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: people that are associated with this case, they didn't know 282 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: that JJ and Tyley were gone. 283 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 2: Actually, I think that's a perfect illustration because think about it. 284 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 2: Imagine back in the day when you couldn't see like this. So, yeah, 285 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 2: there was a hurricane going all around that nobody knew about. 286 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: Nobody knew. It's very easy, chief amongst here speaking, to 287 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: sit in judgment of somebody, you know, looking back retrospectively. 288 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: But there's just certain things that you're going to look for. 289 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: You got a forty nine year old dead. I've got questions, 290 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: and by God, I want answers. So that's why it's 291 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: important that the corner did in fact show up. We've 292 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: got nine to one one, we've got a deputy responding, 293 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: we've got ems responding. You would think that you would 294 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: want ems for a forty nine year old. This is 295 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,719 Speaker 1: not a terminally old person. You're thinking, there's a chance 296 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: that they're going to try to do everything. But when 297 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: they arrived, they noted that there were no signs of life. 298 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: And it's at that point, you know you talked about 299 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: the corner coming out. That's when that switch is flipped. 300 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 1: When they're looking there and they're trained, you know, to 301 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: examine a body. Their patients obviously are alive, they're going 302 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: to try to transport them in. They knew that all 303 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: hope was gone at this point in time. God called corner. 304 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 1: So the corner shows up, and it came out in 305 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: trial and testimony not only the corner showed up, but 306 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: also the deputy corner or deputy corner preceded the actual 307 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: arrival of the corner. So you had two medical legal 308 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: authorities that showed up at the scene, they observed this frothy, pink, 309 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: adeimitous cone that there was a lot of vague information 310 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: about it. First. You know, one of the kids, i think, 311 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: in one of the television interviews, had said, yeah, yeah, 312 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: we saw that this was present on our mother's face. 313 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: The children, i think had stated that they're the ones 314 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: that insisted in an autopsy not be performed. Look, the 315 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: person that makes that decision, first off, is the corner. 316 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 1: It's not the family. The family can protest, they can 317 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: say no, we don't want an autopsy, and they can 318 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: scream from the rooftops. But if the corner deems it 319 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: necessary that it serves a greater good for us to 320 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: have the answers, Yeah, I mean, the corner might listen 321 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: to the family and say, yeah, we'll go along, we'll 322 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: abide by your wishes. When you're a medical legal authority 323 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,719 Speaker 1: and you're standing over the body of a woman that 324 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: has suddenly died, there's no indication that she's got a 325 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: heart history or some kind of cardiac event. Now it 326 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 1: appears that she's probably in congested failure because she's got 327 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: this pink, frothy cone coming out of her mouth, which 328 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: is something that we associated with a congested failure. You'll 329 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: see it with od's as well. You see it in drownings. 330 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: But here's the thing, you also see it with a 331 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: six year old death stave. That's the problem here because 332 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: you know, as we come to find out later, when 333 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: her body was eventually removed from the grave down in Utah, 334 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: they found things that would indicate that this was something 335 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: other than a natural death. So it's at that moment 336 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: time that the corner makes a critical determination. They decide 337 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: to rest solely on the information that's being provided to 338 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 1: them by a one Chad day Bell. He's telling the 339 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: corner that, yeh, she's had I think he termed it 340 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: as convulsions. I don't know what you mean by convulsions 341 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: when you say convulsions, because if you tell me that 342 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: as a death investigator, I'm going to say, well, I 343 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: need you, I need you to put a finer point 344 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: on that for me. You're saying, she has had convulsions, Okay, 345 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: give me the dates and time's. Where were you when 346 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: this was going on? Had she just ingested anything when 347 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: this happened? Is there a history of family having quote 348 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: unquote convulsions to any of the kids have convulsions. Is 349 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: this something that you've witnessed? And were there any other 350 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: witnesses to these convulsions? Hey, when she had these convulsions, 351 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: did she ever fall to the floor and bite her tongue? 352 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: Did she thrash all about and you know, get hurt 353 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: as a result of bumping into things. I want to 354 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 1: know more about these so called convulsions, because if you 355 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: got convulsions, that means that there's some kind of root 356 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: there from a medical perspective, a disease perspective, that's causing that. 357 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: And I would think that if she's having convulsions, and 358 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: I'm sitting there and I'm telling the corner this, and 359 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: I'm looking at my kids, well, how do I know 360 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: that there's not some kind of genetic predisposition. You've got 361 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: a forty nine year old wife. I'm staring at my 362 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: kids that are there in the room, and I'm thinking, well, 363 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: if this is a problem, these quote unquote convulsions, how 364 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: do I know that my kids aren't gonna have this? 365 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: But you know, Joe, on top of that, the convulsions, Okay, 366 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 2: if my wife was suffering from something, as he indicates convulsions, 367 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 2: something more than an extended cough that was recognizable that 368 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 2: I would put a tag to it like that. We 369 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: would have doctors records because I would have taken her 370 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: to the doctor. This is not normal. This is beyond 371 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 2: I've got a nagging cough. I've got something here that 372 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 2: I'm labeling convulsions. 373 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: Doc. 374 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 2: We got to figure this out. But the other part 375 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: of all this, Joe, is that the children are not 376 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 2: children at home. These are adult children now who they 377 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: basically get their information about their mother's health from their father, 378 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 2: Chad day Bell. So Chad day Bell is the person 379 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 2: telling the kids, telling the authorities on the scene. Everybody 380 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 2: gets their information, and whether it's said by a child 381 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 2: or not, all of the information is coming from Chad 382 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 2: day Bell about the health of his wife, who now 383 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 2: suddenly has been having convulsions. 384 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,479 Speaker 1: He's the proverbial rudder on the ship. Is it a 385 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: piece of wellspring, the font if you will, from what 386 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: the knowledge that comes forth relative to her? And here's 387 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: the thing, I'm curious as to how thorough the examination 388 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: of her body was at the scene. There's going to 389 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: be evidence here on her body that's going to be 390 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: revealed as a result of this exhumation. What did you 391 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: see in real time? If you're the corner and look, 392 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: I'm all fine and good. If you maybe you decided, Okay, 393 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to lean not onto my own understanding here 394 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: and just go with what the husband says. I guess 395 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, relative to Tammy at 396 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: the scene, I'd want to know how thorough was your 397 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: examination of her remains at the scene? Did you see anything? 398 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: Did you notice anything? What is it that made you 399 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: feel so comfortable that you felt like her body could 400 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: be released, transported to another state and buried. Never, and 401 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: I mean never, underestimate what a true professional in the 402 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: medical legal field can accomplish when given the tools, the time, 403 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: the facility, and their expertise to assess a human remain. 404 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: And boy was an assessment done by doctor Eric Christensen. 405 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 1: He's a medical examiner for the state of Utah. Dave, 406 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: we really had a big reveal, didn't we? In court? 407 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,479 Speaker 2: Yes, And I have one question before we go forward 408 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 2: with this. My question relates to she dies in her 409 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 2: home in Idaho on October nineteenth, and she has moved 410 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: across state lines and they exhume her on December eleventh. 411 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 2: Who does the autopsy. Would it be the coroner from Rexburg, 412 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: Idaho going to Utah to do the autopsy or Idaho. 413 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 2: Is that now out of the picture and it's all 414 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:12,479 Speaker 2: being dealt with in Utah. 415 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got a body that is now buried in Utah. 416 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: You have to have a burial certificate. You know that 417 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: they're going to crack up in the ground create a 418 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 1: new grave and that person is going to be deposited 419 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 1: there in the state of Utah. So that has to 420 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: be worked through now the corner up in Idaho. They 421 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: can request or you know, certainly law enforcement could as 422 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: well request a exhumation. They can request it, that doesn't 423 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: mean that they can order it. And it's going to 424 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: come down to the state officials in Utah as to 425 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 1: whether or not they're going to grant that request. But somebody, 426 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: probably probably the state Attorney general up in Idaho, got 427 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: on the phone and had a conversation with people, said, look, 428 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: this is what we're staring at, and maybe the FEDS 429 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: as well, because Dave, as you well know, we've been 430 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: following this loath these many years. We've got dead bodies 431 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: everywhere different states, in several different states, and not to mention. 432 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,719 Speaker 1: You've got a federal park that's involved in all this, 433 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: where you got two children or one of the children 434 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: where they were actually last seeing alive. So there's a 435 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: lot of players involved in this. 436 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 2: Well, thankfully, at least in this particular case. Doctor Eric 437 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 2: Christiansen is Utah's chief medical examiner, and according to everything 438 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 2: I'm seeing, Joe, they got oh boy, this, I don't 439 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: want to be cold, and I pray people that if 440 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 2: you're a family member, you will forgive me. They got 441 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 2: Tammy Davell's body out of the grave around six point 442 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 2: thirty in the morning, and they had her body back 443 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 2: in the ground by two thirty that afternoon. Is it 444 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 2: common to do it that fast? Joe? 445 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: I was actually shocked. I'm glad you picked up on that. 446 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: But you know what that tells me, Dave. The fact 447 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: that they were able to get her reinterred in such 448 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: a short period of time. You know what that tells me, Dave. 449 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: It tells me that there was prep that took place. 450 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: They knew what they had to do, they went in 451 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: and they accomplished the task in short order. And that 452 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 1: means that you're standing by you have every technician known 453 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: demand that is saying, Okay, guys, this is when we're starting. 454 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 1: The physician, doctor Christensen, he actually was there overseeing the exhamation, 455 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: so he physically was standing there as her remains were 456 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: brought up out of the ground, traveled with them back 457 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: to the State Emy's office, and it's at that point 458 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: that this examination took place. And it's almost like, I'm 459 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: not trying to be morbid here, but it's almost like 460 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: they would have pregamed this. They would have sat down 461 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: and there would have been a game plan. You know, 462 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: with everybody involved. You're going to have representatives from all 463 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: of the interested parties, from law enforcement, perhaps they're going 464 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: to be there. You're going to have, like I said, 465 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: your technicians there. I would imagine that probably Idaho had 466 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: sent down their crime scene people to document everything photographically. 467 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: Not to mention doctor Christensen is going to have his 468 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: own photography. That is that's a bit different than crime 469 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: scene photography, where you're going to be looking at specific trauma. 470 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: And this actually comes into play in court because photographs. 471 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: One of the ways that's played out is that there 472 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: were certain photographs that the judge in Tammy Dabell's case 473 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 1: would not allow. They were not allowing these big broad photographs. 474 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: There were only a couple of those what we refer 475 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: to as macro photographs of the body. They were showing 476 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: micro photographs, And even one observer said they couldn't actually 477 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: appreciate the anatomical orientation of the visual because you don't 478 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: have a point of reference. Say, for instance, if you've 479 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: got some kind of injury and they've only got like 480 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: a close up image of that injury, you can't appreciate 481 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 1: where the apex of the shoulder is, or the elbow 482 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,479 Speaker 1: or anything with the scale. It's that, yeah, exactly, Well 483 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 1: there might have been a scale, but there's no it's 484 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: so tight that all you see is is skin. 485 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: So that's why they actually drew the pictures showing where 486 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: these were. 487 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, the doctor would. And look when a doctor 488 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: draws that diagram, and people have seen these diagrams that 489 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: we generate at autopsy, they're not inflammatory. Would you agree 490 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: with that, Dave. I mean, they're not like a dissected body. 491 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: But you can yet, you can identify trauma on the 492 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: body to say I found it. I found an abiration here, 493 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: I found a contusion here, there's a gunshot on here. 494 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: You have this in a very non inflammatory presentation. That's 495 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: actually what happened, you know. And boy did Christensen have 496 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: a big reveal. I don't know, you know, because we've 497 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: waited for this for so long. He came to some 498 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: very interesting conclusions, didn't he He did. 499 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 2: And the thing that we had been told all along, 500 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,719 Speaker 2: course is that she died in her sleep. Forty nine 501 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 2: year old woman dies in her sleep. No need to 502 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 2: look into it any further, Wash your hands off, Hubby 503 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 2: gets married again. But now we come to this trial. 504 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 2: We've got doctor Eric Christiansen on the stand, Utah's chief 505 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: medical examiner. We've got pictures, we've got drawings, but we 506 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 2: still don't know how she died. We know they said 507 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 2: fix you, but what in the world do we find out? 508 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan. 509 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: What the doctor's conclusion was was that Tammy Day Bell's 510 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: death actually arose first off, and this is quite horrible. 511 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: There's evidence that she had been restrained, Dave. She's got contusions. 512 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: If people will put their hand just superior to their 513 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: left breast, Okay, there's a big focal area of hemorrhage there. 514 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: You've got a focal area of hemorrhage. On the left bicep, 515 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: so that area that I was just referring to superior 516 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: to the left breast, So you've got a contusion there. 517 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: You've got a contusion the left bicep on the upper side, 518 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: the upside, so if you're laying face down, then there's 519 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: a series of four contusions running down the right arm, Dave. 520 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: I mean they run down the length of the right 521 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: bicep almost up to the highest one is going to 522 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: be where the upper arm joins the shoulder, just almost 523 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: at the point of the armpit, and they run down 524 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: all the way to the crook of the right arm 525 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: or what we refer to as the anti cupital fossa, 526 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: which is where you bend your arm right there. Then 527 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: you flip Tammy's body over. Another line of contusions Dave, 528 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: that run down the posterior or the backside of her 529 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: right arm. There's actually four there, So you've got these 530 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: multiple contusions all over her body. And what he had 531 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: opined was that she was restrained, and these restraints appeared 532 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: to have occurred in the hours just prior to her 533 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: death or in the midst you know, those perimortem events 534 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: that we talked about, like in the throes of death, 535 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: and he was able to verify. You know, we talked 536 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: about the frothyodemitus cone that had arisen out of her 537 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: mouth that was witnessed that morning. Actually i've seen I 538 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: think by one of her kids. He was able to 539 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: demonstrate that there was edema in her lungs as well, 540 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: so that gives you an idea for him, at least 541 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: he said, this is consistent with an asphixial death. Now, 542 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: how did this actually happen? Because you don't have anything 543 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: of significance on the neck that would give you an 544 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: idea of like a choking for perhaps, or a ligature strangulation. 545 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: But if she is restrained, if she is being held down, 546 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: if she is being tied up, I can't really see 547 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: that happening. Given the nature of these bruises, because you've 548 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: got them on both aspects, You've got them on the 549 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: front and the back of the arm. It would seem 550 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: to me that perhaps just perhaps Tammy knew something was wrong, 551 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: something was happening, and maybe the perpetrator was on top 552 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: of her day and she was fighting, She was fighting 553 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: for her life in the middle of the night. Can 554 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: you imagine what waking up and you've got this big 555 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: weight upon you, and you know something is happening. You 556 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: begin to fight back, but the person perhaps has more 557 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: muscle than you, they're stronger than you, they weigh more 558 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: than you. And then while you initially have that feeling, 559 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: suddenly something maybe a hand or maybe even a pillow, 560 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: compromises your airway and begins to press down on you. 561 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: And you're fighting. You're in a dead sleep while this happens, 562 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: and you wake up to this. You're fighting, you're struggling, 563 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, they can't breathe anymore, 564 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: and now you've passed away in the marital bed, which, 565 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: by virtue of what doctor Christensen said, Dave, this is 566 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: an indication that this is he ruled this case not 567 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: as a natural you know, which we were told in 568 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: the beginning, this is some kind of seizure, it's some 569 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: kind of heart event or something. No, no, no, He 570 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: said that her death is classified as a homicide and 571 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: that this is actually an asphyxial death. 572 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 2: And you see bruising that has occurred prior to death, 573 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 2: or is it possible for a body to be bruised 574 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 2: after death? And I mean, I know this is like 575 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 2: asking a lot of questions at one time. But I'm 576 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 2: really curious because I know we've seen a discussion, or 577 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 2: rather a dialogue about the bruising on her body and 578 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: where it happened. How can they tell when, where and 579 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 2: how it took place when you got a dead body. 580 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: Dead bodies don't bruise. That's just something that doesn't happen. 581 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: That can be traumatized. You know, have cuts and scrapes 582 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: and all those sorts of things, but they look different 583 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: than they do in life. But here's the thing. This 584 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: is what this forensic pathologist in Utah did, and this 585 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: is absolutely brilliant. I've never talked about this on bodybags before, 586 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: but it's a great opportunity to discuss it. This forensic 587 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: pathologist actually did a layer what's called a layer dissection 588 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,479 Speaker 1: day where he didn't just merely cut into the tissue, okay, 589 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: he painstaking leeon each one of these little contused areas 590 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: that they're seeing on Tammy Dave Bell's body. He did 591 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: a layer dissection where he went first down through the dermis, 592 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: which is that top layer of skin, got the epidermis. 593 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: In the dermis, he kind of lifts that back and 594 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 1: looks for the underside of the skin to see where 595 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: the bruising is there the contusion. Then he goes into 596 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 1: what's referred to as the SubQ fat subcutaneous fat, goes 597 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: in there, see did the bruising extend down through there? 598 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: And then he trims back even further. He did this 599 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,359 Speaker 1: probably on each one of these insults. Then he goes 600 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: into the muscle, Dave. He goes into the muscle and 601 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 1: actually trims through it to see how deep this contusion went. 602 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: And you know what you can tell by that how 603 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: much direct pressure was applied, Because the deeper you go, 604 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 1: the more pressure is going to be applied, and it 605 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: gives you perhaps a sense of violence visv how much 606 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: pressure was applied, and perhaps just perhaps did Tammy fight back? 607 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: And that's what everybody really wants to know. 608 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 2: You said she was restrained. Does that indicate there might 609 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 2: have been more than one person restraining her? 610 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: Wow? Yeah, great question, Dave, great question. How are you 611 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,959 Speaker 1: going to pull that off? I wonder how exactly can 612 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: that be proven? I don't know necessarily that it could be. 613 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 1: I think that what we begin to think here is 614 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: that you begin to look at those that are most 615 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 1: intimately involved, and if you're married, who are you most 616 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: intimate with? Well, that individual that you share a bed with. 617 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: That's quite something to consider for that moment time, particularly 618 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: given you remember what you said about Chad and marrying 619 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,479 Speaker 1: Lorie Valo. Give me the time framing in how. 620 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 2: Long Tammy died? October nineteenth, Chad day Bell married Lori 621 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 2: Valo on the beach in Hawaii November fifth. 622 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: Holy smokes. And then we've got Tammy's body being exhumed 623 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: in early December. My, how fast things happen? Huh? 624 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 2: With what we're seeing in court and the big reveal 625 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 2: of the bruises of restraining, I'm still trying to wrap 626 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 2: my head around how did she? How was she asphixiated? 627 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 2: Will they ever be able to determine? 628 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know that they necessarily would have been 629 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:29,919 Speaker 1: able to specifically identify the mechanism. But in his final conclusion, 630 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: Christensen actually opined that her death could have come about 631 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,439 Speaker 1: as a result of smothering or what's referred to as 632 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: neck or chest compression, which means that you have a 633 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of weight pressing down upon the neck. You know, 634 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: chest can't rise and fall, and your airways compromised because 635 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,839 Speaker 1: you've got pressing down on the neck you know where 636 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: the airway is, or externally you're compromising the airway by 637 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: blockage of the nasal passage in the mouth. Either way, 638 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: this examiner concluded that her death was brought about as 639 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: a result of her oxygen uptake being compromised, and it 640 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: was of course at the hand of another I'm Joseph 641 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks