1
00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,880
Speaker 1: Welcome back to DRILL. I'm Amy Westervelt, and over the

2
00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,400
Speaker 1: next couple months, I'm prepping to go to my very

3
00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:11,960
Speaker 1: first COP. That stands for Conference of the Parties. It's

4
00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,080
Speaker 1: an annual UN climate summit that brings together all the

5
00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,760
Speaker 1: countries that are parties to the UN Framework Convention on

6
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,160
Speaker 1: Climate Change or unf Triple C. It's true I've been

7
00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,799
Speaker 1: a climate reporter for more than twenty years and have

8
00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,280
Speaker 1: somehow managed to avoid going to COP all this time.

9
00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,720
Speaker 1: I'm going this year because it relates to a couple

10
00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,640
Speaker 1: of projects we're working on for next year, and because

11
00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,559
Speaker 1: the organizing committee from Brazil has vowed to make climate

12
00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:45,280
Speaker 1: information integrity a focus of this year's gathering. That's important because,

13
00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,040
Speaker 1: as we'll learn today, climate miss and disinformation is a

14
00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,400
Speaker 1: huge part of the reason the world has not acted

15
00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,840
Speaker 1: on this issue. I'm also curious to get a front

16
00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,920
Speaker 1: row seat because there's a real crisis of legitimacy happening

17
00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,400
Speaker 1: with the COPS. This year is COP thirty. That means

18
00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,959
Speaker 1: they've been happening for thirty years, and we don't seem

19
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,720
Speaker 1: any closer to a global solution to climate change than

20
00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,160
Speaker 1: we were thirty years ago. I'm also interested to see

21
00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,600
Speaker 1: what happens when one of the world's biggest obstructors, the

22
00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,960
Speaker 1: United States, decides not to go. Who will pick up

23
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:32,080
Speaker 1: the slack? Will it be Saudi, Yes, but also Japan,

24
00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:37,320
Speaker 1: even Europe. A lot of negotiators are heading into cop

25
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:45,199
Speaker 1: wanting to protect their countries, resources, their countries' approach to markets,

26
00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,120
Speaker 1: all of those things. So it will be interesting to

27
00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,280
Speaker 1: see what happens up close. And to get ready, I'm

28
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,120
Speaker 1: reading this new book from the Climate Social Science Network

29
00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,440
Speaker 1: that pulls together everything we currently know about climate instruction

30
00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,919
Speaker 1: all over the world. It's great prep for this conference.

31
00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,079
Speaker 1: I'm joined today by two researchers who look at how

32
00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:13,359
Speaker 1: misinformation functions, why it's so effective, and what can be

33
00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,760
Speaker 1: done to combat it. John Cook is a Senior Research

34
00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,880
Speaker 1: Fellow with the Melbourne Center for Behavior Change at the

35
00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,280
Speaker 1: University of Melbourne, researching how to use critical thinking to

36
00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,520
Speaker 1: counter misinformation. You might have seen his research referenced in

37
00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,799
Speaker 1: the past around the idea of paltering, a misinformation technique

38
00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,480
Speaker 1: that the oil companies love, where you use accurate bits

39
00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,120
Speaker 1: of information assembled in such a way that they mislead people.

40
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,640
Speaker 1: Also joining us is Dominic Stecula. He's an assistant professor

41
00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,120
Speaker 1: of political science at Colorado State University whose research focuses

42
00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,680
Speaker 1: on the information environment and its effects on society. We

43
00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,480
Speaker 1: talked about all sorts of things, from the rule ideology, polarization,

44
00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:04,200
Speaker 1: and social media play in misinformation to concepts like solutions, aversion,

45
00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,760
Speaker 1: and elite cues. That's coming up after this quick break.

46
00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,240
Speaker 1: This is Drilled Season fourteen obstruction.

47
00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,160
Speaker 2: I'm sure you guys get asked this one hundred times

48
00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,120
Speaker 2: a week, but I'm asky to do it again. Can

49
00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:41,080
Speaker 2: I have you define the difference between misinformation and disinformation?

50
00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,680
Speaker 2: And I think you make this really interesting point about

51
00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,960
Speaker 2: the fact that intentionality maybe doesn't matter so much here,

52
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,680
Speaker 2: so I'd love to hear you say more about that

53
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:50,080
Speaker 2: as well.

54
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,120
Speaker 3: In this literature on misinformation and disinformation, a lot of

55
00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,040
Speaker 3: attention has been paid to intentionality, right, And the basic

56
00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:04,480
Speaker 3: definition of misinformation is a false or misleading content that's

57
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:09,320
Speaker 3: shared without any intent to deceive, whereas disinformation is shared

58
00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,880
Speaker 3: with intent to deceive. But what we say in the

59
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:18,360
Speaker 3: chapter is that on climate and really often in most

60
00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:24,000
Speaker 3: other things, intent is unknowable, right. Sometimes you get to

61
00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,479
Speaker 3: know the intent through the release of private correspondence of

62
00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,719
Speaker 3: a certain cable network, for example, right, But in general,

63
00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:38,240
Speaker 3: intent is unknowable, and the same claim like volcanoes emit

64
00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,960
Speaker 3: more co two than humans, misleads audiences regardless of whether

65
00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,880
Speaker 3: the person sharing it wants to deceive or doesn't. So

66
00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,440
Speaker 3: we think that it's better to focus on what these

67
00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,159
Speaker 3: claims do, and what they do is they erode understanding

68
00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,479
Speaker 3: and ultimately stall any meaningful climate action.

69
00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:03,599
Speaker 4: And I would just add to that that when people

70
00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:10,160
Speaker 4: believe misinformation, they will often make arguments that look exactly

71
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,400
Speaker 4: the same from the outside, using the same misleading techniques

72
00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,520
Speaker 4: as people who are intentionally trying to deceive. And the

73
00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,080
Speaker 4: reason for that is because when we are motivated to

74
00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:28,919
Speaker 4: believe something, we gravitate towards these different biases. And for example,

75
00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,560
Speaker 4: we might be biased towards believing certain types of information,

76
00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,599
Speaker 4: and that leads us to cherry pick data, So just

77
00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,400
Speaker 4: pick the bits of information that suit our beliefs and

78
00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,640
Speaker 4: ignore all the information that contradicts our beliefs. So someone

79
00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,480
Speaker 4: might be cherry picking because they're biased, or they might

80
00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,479
Speaker 4: be cherry picking because they're intentionally trying to deceive people

81
00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,520
Speaker 4: you don't know from the outside self deception looks exactly

82
00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,480
Speaker 4: the same as intentional deception from the outside.

83
00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:01,480
Speaker 2: Right. Interesting, Okay, Can I have you find the elaboration

84
00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,599
Speaker 2: likelihood model of attitude change and talk about how it

85
00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,360
Speaker 2: shows up when we're talking about climate misinformation.

86
00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:14,560
Speaker 3: So it's a big theory in psychology and communications, and

87
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,480
Speaker 3: the gist of it is that we tend to process

88
00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:23,919
Speaker 3: messages in different ways. Sometimes it's via central route and

89
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,480
Speaker 3: that's the careful evaluation, and we do that when we're

90
00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:32,960
Speaker 3: motivated and able to really evaluate a claim or the messages.

91
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,920
Speaker 3: This processed through the peripheral route, so things like shortcuts

92
00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,760
Speaker 3: like you know, using a specific source, a vibe, quote unquote,

93
00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,239
Speaker 3: an identity, and we do that when we have limited

94
00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,560
Speaker 3: time or ability to really process and evaluate the claim.

95
00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:55,760
Speaker 3: Since climate is a very complex issue, most people tend

96
00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,320
Speaker 3: to lean on the ladder, on the peripheral route, on

97
00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,680
Speaker 3: the shortcuts they don't really have have frequently the ability

98
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,920
Speaker 3: and sometimes time to really process carefully the claims. But

99
00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,719
Speaker 3: that's how ELM really pops up in the context of

100
00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,440
Speaker 3: climate misinformation because we tend to rely on this peripheral route,

101
00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,280
Speaker 3: on these shortcuts that we take mental shortcuts like who's

102
00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,480
Speaker 3: saying things, what's the vibe, the identity behind the speaker,

103
00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,040
Speaker 3: the identity that's triggered by the thing that's claimed. So

104
00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,120
Speaker 3: that's really the kind of the underlying basis for how

105
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,680
Speaker 3: this pops up in the broader context of climate misinformation.

106
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had never seen this before and it was

107
00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,760
Speaker 2: really really interesting for me, so appreciate it.

108
00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,240
Speaker 3: It's similar to some of the kind of Danny Kanama

109
00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,840
Speaker 3: and the kind of thinking fast and slow, kind of

110
00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,880
Speaker 3: cognitive you know, system one, system two thinking. It's it's

111
00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,920
Speaker 3: a similar similar idea, But yeah, that's that's kind of

112
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,360
Speaker 3: I think how I would it's there's obviously more to

113
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,920
Speaker 3: it than this, but that's how I would. I would

114
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,040
Speaker 3: kind of characterize where it fits in the context of

115
00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,400
Speaker 3: what we're talking about, right, And a broad idea is that,

116
00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:11,240
Speaker 3: let's say, a twenty second clip from a politician you

117
00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:17,520
Speaker 3: trust can outweigh an eight hundred word explainer because the

118
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,040
Speaker 3: clip hits this peripheral route, right, the identity, the emotion,

119
00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,920
Speaker 3: whereas the explainer demands a lot more cognitive effort that

120
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:26,760
Speaker 3: you might not have.

121
00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,679
Speaker 4: And a lot of misinformation arguments are superficially persuasive, They

122
00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,600
Speaker 4: just flow. They might have a logical fallacy, but they

123
00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,800
Speaker 4: just have a kind of a fly to it that

124
00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,640
Speaker 4: that sounds kind of truthy to people. Yeah.

125
00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, public opinion comes up a lot in this and

126
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,040
Speaker 2: obviously one of the key, maybe the key uses of

127
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,720
Speaker 2: misinformation is to shape public opinion. But i'd love to

128
00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:00,480
Speaker 2: have you actually define what that means for people and

129
00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,800
Speaker 2: then talk a little bit about how climate misinformation works

130
00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,600
Speaker 2: to sort of shape public opinion in one direction or another.

131
00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,079
Speaker 2: You mentioned this bottom up and top down approaches in

132
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,840
Speaker 2: the paper too, and it'd be great to have you

133
00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:17,840
Speaker 2: explain what that is.

134
00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,000
Speaker 4: So, yeah, with public opinion, it can cover a couple

135
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,560
Speaker 4: of different things. Like one of the obvious things is

136
00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,520
Speaker 4: people's perceptions about climate change. Do they think that climate

137
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,160
Speaker 4: change is happening and human cause and that the impacts

138
00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,320
Speaker 4: will be bad? And we talked more specifically about those

139
00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,240
Speaker 4: beliefs later in the chapter. But it also extends to

140
00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,880
Speaker 4: people's attitudes about climate action. Do they support policies to

141
00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:49,320
Speaker 4: mitigate climate change? Do they support renewable energy? And so

142
00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,679
Speaker 4: there's that whole mix of perceptions, beliefs, and attitudes, and

143
00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:02,320
Speaker 4: misinformation has several aims. It's about using people's perceptions about

144
00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:06,720
Speaker 4: climate change, but ultimately it's about reducing public support for

145
00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:07,360
Speaker 4: climate action.

146
00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,920
Speaker 3: I'll just add maybe more and more just broader kind

147
00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,840
Speaker 3: of meta as a as a political scientist, you know,

148
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,480
Speaker 3: public opinion is this really important feature of you know,

149
00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,559
Speaker 3: democratics theory, right, and what we think of as what

150
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:29,360
Speaker 3: makes democratic society actually democratic. Right, And the idea is

151
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,120
Speaker 3: that this kind of aggregation of what people think and

152
00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:39,080
Speaker 3: want should be reflected in what the politicians do and

153
00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,359
Speaker 3: the policies that the government ends up pursuing.

154
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:43,800
Speaker 5: Right.

155
00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:49,040
Speaker 3: So though in many ways public opinion in theory at

156
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:54,280
Speaker 3: least should be the driver the push or stall of policy,

157
00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:59,199
Speaker 3: and in the context of climate change, it definitely can

158
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:04,560
Speaker 3: stall it as well. So misinformation in that context kind

159
00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,160
Speaker 3: of tilts that playing field because it makes action harder

160
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,360
Speaker 3: even when majorities support and believe in climate change and

161
00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,960
Speaker 3: support certain kinds of climate action. As we've seen in

162
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,319
Speaker 3: a lot of polling in the United States but also

163
00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:22,360
Speaker 3: in other countries in terms of the bottom up versus

164
00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:29,600
Speaker 3: top down movements and pushing on public opinion. The idea

165
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,439
Speaker 3: is that you know, in terms of bottom up, everyday

166
00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:38,800
Speaker 3: average people can share things they believe or you know,

167
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:43,840
Speaker 3: they wrongly believed in terms of misinformed claims, and because

168
00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 3: of how we structure our time and the kind of

169
00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,559
Speaker 3: virtual spaces in which we tend to spend a lot

170
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,960
Speaker 3: of our time at using you know, social media, et cetera,

171
00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,840
Speaker 3: that bottom up pressure. You know, viral claims that are

172
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:05,280
Speaker 3: misinformed impact public opinion, right when when unchecked, misinformation spreading

173
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,120
Speaker 3: on social media can really do a lot of damage.

174
00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,680
Speaker 3: So that's the bottom bottom up component. The top down

175
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,920
Speaker 3: component is the elites, you know, and by elites I

176
00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:22,720
Speaker 3: mean I mean here politicians, interest groups of all kinds,

177
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:29,360
Speaker 3: including the fossil fuel industry. They can see certain narratives

178
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,880
Speaker 3: and influence the public. Public then public then repeats those claims.

179
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:39,319
Speaker 3: So the top down bottom up dynamic is mutually reinforcing.

180
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,959
Speaker 3: In many ways, they reinforce each other, right, Like a

181
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,160
Speaker 3: lot of the claims that one unquote organically show up

182
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,760
Speaker 3: on social media have been supplied by elites, by interest groups.

183
00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:51,040
Speaker 5: Right.

184
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:55,080
Speaker 3: So, for example, in the context of climate misinformation, you

185
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,920
Speaker 3: can have a meme about evs being dirtier than gascar,

186
00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,439
Speaker 3: and that might spread on social media and it may

187
00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,600
Speaker 3: appear to be something that's organic that that people are

188
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:08,960
Speaker 3: just sharing among themselves.

189
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,160
Speaker 5: But where did that come from? Where did it originate?

190
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,800
Speaker 3: Well, frequently those types of tidbits, those types of misinformed,

191
00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:22,079
Speaker 3: misinformed content, they originate with the lobbying group, with a

192
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,280
Speaker 3: specific interest group that has a vested interest in spreading

193
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,240
Speaker 3: a certain narrative. So in that sense that the kind

194
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,160
Speaker 3: of bottom up and top down influences of public opinion

195
00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:37,520
Speaker 3: are mutually reinforcing because one feeds into another, and then

196
00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:42,760
Speaker 3: that pushes public opinion into into places that is maybe

197
00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,880
Speaker 3: less than ideal because it is based on information that

198
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,920
Speaker 3: is not truthful, not correct, and ultimately deceiving.

199
00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:56,440
Speaker 2: Okay, so you talk about the the fact that Americans

200
00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:01,560
Speaker 2: aligned with the Republican Party are more skeptical now of

201
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,480
Speaker 2: climate science than they were in the nineteen nineties, and

202
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:07,520
Speaker 2: kind of use that as a jumping off point to

203
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,199
Speaker 2: talk about the role that ideology plays and shaping climate opinions,

204
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,880
Speaker 2: and then you know how climate misinformation kind of plays

205
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,920
Speaker 2: into that. So I'd love to have you talk a

206
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,240
Speaker 2: little bit about ideology and just the role that it

207
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,760
Speaker 2: plays in climate misinformation, which I realized you could probably

208
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:28,920
Speaker 2: spend two hours plus plus, but I don't know. I guess, yeah,

209
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,800
Speaker 2: how does it work and why is it such an

210
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,960
Speaker 2: indicator of how effective climate misinformation will be.

211
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,680
Speaker 4: In the psychology field, we talk about the concept of

212
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,520
Speaker 4: solutions a version, which is the idea that when people

213
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:50,200
Speaker 4: don't lack a proposed solution to a problem, then they're

214
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,400
Speaker 4: more likely to deny that as a problem in the

215
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,080
Speaker 4: first place, and we see this with climate change. Political

216
00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,200
Speaker 4: conservatives often done let I lack some of the They

217
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:05,040
Speaker 4: often proposed solutions to climate change, such as regulating fossil

218
00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,640
Speaker 4: fuels and trying to reduce emissions in that way, and

219
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,880
Speaker 4: so rather than coming up with their own free market

220
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:17,280
Speaker 4: solutions to climate change, instead, unfortunately they deny the problem

221
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,160
Speaker 4: needs solving. And so this is really the main driver

222
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:27,480
Speaker 4: of why political ideology shapes people's climate opinions. And really,

223
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,200
Speaker 4: back in the early nineteen nineties, we were at this

224
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:36,280
Speaker 4: crossroad where the problem of climate change was becoming more real,

225
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,560
Speaker 4: like the scientists were becoming clear on the need to

226
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:44,040
Speaker 4: act on climate change, and conservative groups really had this

227
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,040
Speaker 4: option where they could have either proposed conservative solutions to

228
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,560
Speaker 4: climate change or denied the problem. And it's a real

229
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,640
Speaker 4: historic tragedy that instead the conservative think tanks opted to

230
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,920
Speaker 4: deny the problem and produce misinformation, and ever since then

231
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,720
Speaker 4: misinformation has been polluting the information landscape and polarizing the public.

232
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, totally agree with everything John said.

233
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,120
Speaker 3: I mean, a few things I would add is that

234
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,960
Speaker 3: when we think of ideology, most people, at least in

235
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:24,480
Speaker 3: the United States, they are not consistently liberal or conservative

236
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,640
Speaker 3: right people kind of views that are all over the place.

237
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:34,560
Speaker 3: But increasingly, in a polarized political landscape like ours, the

238
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,600
Speaker 3: society is sorting along those partisan minds more and more

239
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:44,520
Speaker 3: so than ever before. Historically, when you knew the fact

240
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,560
Speaker 3: that somebody is a liberal or conservative, you know, forty

241
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,240
Speaker 3: fifty years ago, that didn't really predict your ability to

242
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,360
Speaker 3: guess whether they're a Democrat or Republican, right, because there

243
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,920
Speaker 3: were liberals and conservatives in both parties. There were south

244
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,159
Speaker 3: and racist Democrats, and there were northern kind of liberal

245
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,440
Speaker 3: Republicans like Nelson Rockefeller.

246
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,560
Speaker 5: To a certain extent that no longer exists.

247
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,960
Speaker 3: Right, the ideology and partisanship are sorted in a sense

248
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,320
Speaker 3: that if I now know that somebody identifies as a conservative,

249
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,240
Speaker 3: I have a pretty good guess that they also are

250
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:23,080
Speaker 3: a Republican.

251
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,359
Speaker 5: And say, with liberals and Democrats.

252
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:33,719
Speaker 3: And Essentially, ideology matters for climate views because artisanship and

253
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,160
Speaker 3: partisan polarization that kind of drives a lot of our

254
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,919
Speaker 3: politics these days. Climate is one of the issues on

255
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:46,200
Speaker 3: which parties have polarized. And that simply means that if

256
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,520
Speaker 3: you want to be a member of good standing of

257
00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:53,439
Speaker 3: the Republican Party, you know that you need to be

258
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,679
Speaker 3: against climate action, right, you need to be opposed to know,

259
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 3: socialist leftists who want to implement certain policies. I'm obviously

260
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,040
Speaker 3: using air quotes here, which is not very useful tools

261
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,640
Speaker 3: for radio. That you know, that's that's that's an access

262
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,480
Speaker 3: of major division in society now in the United States,

263
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:23,520
Speaker 3: and and that essentially translates to this tribal way of

264
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,399
Speaker 3: thinking about climate because you know what's expected of people

265
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,879
Speaker 3: in your political tribe to believe, so any kind of

266
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,119
Speaker 3: thoughtful engagement with any kind of facts, et cetera, that

267
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:35,560
Speaker 3: comes second to that.

268
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:35,800
Speaker 4: Right.

269
00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,720
Speaker 3: When something becomes more of an identity than just a

270
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,080
Speaker 3: belief about a specific thing, it's much harder to change

271
00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,119
Speaker 3: that right because it is part of a package of

272
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 3: things that you choose to identify as So ideology in

273
00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,440
Speaker 3: that context is also.

274
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,040
Speaker 5: Proubling for climate views.

275
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,960
Speaker 3: In the context of polarized American politics because ideology and

276
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,840
Speaker 3: partisanship are very tight together now and it's one of

277
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:09,080
Speaker 3: those divisive things where there's a lot less room for

278
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,359
Speaker 3: actual thoughtful debate now because it's one of those issues

279
00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,480
Speaker 3: in which the public is polarized, and you just know

280
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 3: that if you're left or right, that's the view you're

281
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:19,239
Speaker 3: supposed to have.

282
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:20,400
Speaker 5: End of discussion.

283
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:27,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, can you define for me elite cues and

284
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,200
Speaker 2: tell me about how they shape public opinion on climate change?

285
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 5: What are these things?

286
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 3: I can say a few things since published under but

287
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 3: essentially cues coming from trusted leaders, And in the context

288
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:50,120
Speaker 3: of climate change, we mostly mean leaders like politicians. And

289
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 3: you know, in given that American politics is so polarized

290
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,680
Speaker 3: and politics is an important part of how people kind

291
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:05,680
Speaker 3: of see themselves, messages coming from major political figures carry right.

292
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 3: They're important because politics is important. But it doesn't just

293
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 3: mean politicians. It also means other trusted societal for the

294
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,880
Speaker 3: lack of a better word, influencers, right like religious leaders, celebrities, etc.

295
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 3: The elite queues would essentially be messages that come from

296
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:31,840
Speaker 3: trusted opinion sources that have the power to sway public opinion.

297
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 3: They matter in the context of what we're talking about

298
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:40,920
Speaker 3: here because they not only can influence how your own

299
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,879
Speaker 3: team thinks about something, but they can also influence how

300
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:50,360
Speaker 3: the other team thinks. So one example being The Inconvenient

301
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,879
Speaker 3: Truth the movie and al Gore being a main messenger

302
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 3: when climate change really became a very salient issue in

303
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:04,160
Speaker 3: the early two thousands. Al Gore was a trusted opinion

304
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,360
Speaker 3: leader for a lot of Democrats as a presidential candidate

305
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,199
Speaker 3: and a former two term vice president. But what we

306
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 3: might now forget is that he was also a very

307
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 3: disliked figure on the right. His assessment on among Republicans

308
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 3: in the United States was as negative as Hillary Clintons

309
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen, for example, right, he was a very

310
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,880
Speaker 3: polarizing figure. And the reason why I bring him up

311
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 3: is that because he was the messenger, he obviously moved

312
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 3: Democrats in a pro climate direction because he was a

313
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,680
Speaker 3: trusted leader on their side, but because he was so

314
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 3: hated by the other side, he also moved Republicans in

315
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,639
Speaker 3: the other direction, just because the kind of the logic

316
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,680
Speaker 3: is if the person that you really hate says something,

317
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,640
Speaker 3: then you're just gonna almost by default to the opposite right.

318
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 3: And that's the power of elite cues in the sense

319
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,199
Speaker 3: that they can move, they can move your team, but

320
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 3: they can also do some damage by if you're choosing

321
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,959
Speaker 3: the wrong messenger, it can really backfire in a sense

322
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 3: of making people really skeptical of what the content of

323
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 3: the message is because the messenger is so distrusted and

324
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 3: so dislike.

325
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 4: And I'll just add to that, A couple of studies

326
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 4: have looked at what drives public opinion about climate change,

327
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 4: looking at all the different factors such as economic factors

328
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 4: and an elite cues, and they found that elite cues

329
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 4: are one of the biggest drivers of public opinion about

330
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,879
Speaker 4: climate change, which really understoodes that people are travel as

331
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 4: Dominique was saying earlier, and so when out tribal leaders

332
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 4: giving us these cues in a certain direction, people tend

333
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 4: to follow that.

334
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 2: I actually was just listening earlier today to like old

335
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 2: c Span tape of the head of the r n

336
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 2: C at the time during the Gore Bush election, like

337
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 2: laying into decre who she was actually you know, Bruce

338
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 2: Harrison's wife too, which is like a whole weird connection

339
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 2: in and of itself. And not a coincidence. I'm sure, Okay,

340
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 2: So I want to talk about the news media again.

341
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 2: I feel like this each of these topics could like

342
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 2: be you know, the whole long discussion in and of themselves,

343
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 2: but in broad strokes, what role does the news media

344
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 2: play in shaping public opinion, especially on climate and what

345
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 2: has it done to kind of either amplify or try

346
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 2: to correct misinformation.

347
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 4: So the media have in some cases helped amplifile spread

348
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 4: climate misinformation, and sometimes it's intentional, sometimes it's unintentional. Conservative

349
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 4: media outlets have been a particularly as time has gone on,

350
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 4: they've gotten worse at it, have been quite a productive

351
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 4: source of climate misinformation, and so that's more of an

352
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 4: intentional misleading the public kind of source. But you also

353
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 4: have unintentional misinforming, such as when just mainstream media present

354
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 4: climate change as a false balance where they give both

355
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 4: sides of an issue equal weight, which is entirely appropriate

356
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 4: when it's issues of political opinion or policy, but when

357
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 4: it comes to issues where there's a scientific consensus, then

358
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 4: presenting like a fifty to fifty debate between a scientist

359
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 4: and a climate denier just has a misinforming effect. So

360
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 4: I mean, we were talking at the beginning about misinformation

361
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 4: and disinformation and how difficult it is to the difference

362
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 4: between the two. We see that with how media have

363
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 4: covered climate change too, whether it's intentional or not. There

364
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 4: are these different ways of misinforming the public.

365
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 5: Yet the false balance that Jones referring to the norm

366
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 5: in a lot of newsrooms.

367
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 3: And the profound fear of being seen as biased, leads

368
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 3: to certain types of coverage that that, like John highlighted.

369
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 5: Is not ideal in the context of a scientific issue.

370
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 3: I think that the problem with a lot of the

371
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 3: of the media, including non partisan media. So I'm not

372
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 3: even talking now about certain cable news networks or explicity

373
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 3: partisan sources of information, but just your run of the

374
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 3: mill mainstream news sources outside of even just the false balance,

375
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 3: which which is wrong and should be avoided. What has

376
00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 3: happened is that increasingly, as the public has alarized on

377
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 3: this issue, the issue is presented more as a political

378
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 3: one than a scientific one. I've done a big study

379
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 3: with content analysis of climate change coverage, looking at decades

380
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 3: of climate change and global warming news in American media

381
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 3: starting in the nineties and going going into twenty sixteen.

382
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 3: And what has happened is experts are futured prominently, which

383
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 3: is good, but increasingly they share the space with politicians,

384
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 3: and a lot of coverage includes references and quotes from politicians,

385
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 3: and the moment politicians kind of crowd out the experts.

386
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 3: To people on the receiving end, to the news consumers,

387
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 3: it just becomes a partisan issue and not a scientific issue.

388
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 3: So in that sense, it isn't just a false balance

389
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: of all. We need to present this issue in a

390
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 3: quote unquote balanced and fair way.

391
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 5: We don't want to be called, you know, partisan hacks.

392
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 3: So we're going to have a pro climate change and

393
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 3: an anti climate change person on. Even beyond that, the

394
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 3: sheer fact that the volume of politicians in the climate

395
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 3: change coverage has helped to polarize the public and make

396
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 3: it an issue where to be a good member, to

397
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 3: be a member in good standing of the of a

398
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 3: certain political party, you need to have a specific political

399
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 3: position on that issue.

400
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. I've been a reporter for a long time and

401
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 2: I keep seeing this in amongst a lot of climate

402
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 2: reporters right now, especially like I don't know, like I

403
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 2: feel like, at least in the US, people have moved

404
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: away somewhat from the false equivalence thing. But there's this

405
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: kind of archetype of a reporter who I think thinks

406
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: that makes them seem smarter if they are like more

407
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: open to industry talking points, you know, like it makes

408
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: them I don't.

409
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 4: Know, I don't know. Anyway, it's academia as well.

410
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: Oh great, great, amazing.

411
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: I find it very annoying. Okay, So, actually you mentioned academia,

412
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 2: and I know that's not a specific focus in this chapter,

413
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: but kind of tying into elite cues and some of

414
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 2: the news media staff in general too, I wonder how

415
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: much kind of using academics, especially at really elite universities

416
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: helps with pushing climate misinformation to various publics as well.

417
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,959
Speaker 2: How important is like that messenger for these guys.

418
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 4: That's an interesting question. So from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty,

419
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 4: I was based at George my University in Virginia.

420
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: Belly of the Beast, John exactly.

421
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you know you've got to change from within, right,

422
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 4: That was That's the thin. And so George Mason has

423
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 4: really ground zero for where the Koch brothers have tried

424
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 4: to spread their influence through academia and universities. So the

425
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 4: Coke Brothers are basically the fossil fuel industry, like the

426
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 4: incredibly rich, incredibly influential, and playing a very impressive long

427
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 4: game in terms of influencing much just public opinion, but

428
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 4: influencing universities and thought and then and then that going

429
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 4: on to influence elites, political elites and the public as well.

430
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 4: So so, and this has been a strategy going over decades,

431
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 4: and it's been quite effective in terms of influencing the

432
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 4: public towards their not only their political beliefs, it also

433
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 4: casting down on climate change.

434
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 3: And I would add to it the growing strain of

435
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 3: populace as we document in a chapter we have the

436
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 3: whole case study of Brazil, but in general, just populism

437
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 3: and anti intellectualism essentially means that increasingly even experts themselves

438
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 3: are not a very trusted group for a certain segment

439
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 3: of the population. So when we talk about elite queues,

440
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 3: you know, the academic expert Q might be useful for

441
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 3: a lot of people, but for some it might be

442
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 3: a polarizing one because they view academics, researchers as as

443
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 3: the out as the outgroup, right, they view them as

444
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 3: the enemy. So Why on earth would would you trust

445
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 3: somebody who who is who is an outgroup and who

446
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 3: doesn't have your and your country's best interests in heart?

447
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 2: Right?

448
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 5: Which is I mean like Vice President Jadi Vance literally

449
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 5: said that professors are the enemy. Right. So, so in

450
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 5: that sense, that makes messaging.

451
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: Harvard guy calls Harvard.

452
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: Guys exactly, yeah, exactly.

453
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 3: So it is a very tricky landscape now, right, because

454
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 3: in that sense, even even expertise alone and credentials are

455
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 3: being challenged in order to sew doubt and divide.

456
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know. I was reading this and I

457
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 2: sent him a snippet of it to my husband because

458
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: my sister in law is like this. She is like

459
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: super anti any kind of like expert. I don't know,

460
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 2: any kind of experts. People with advanced degrees she calls.

461
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: She refers to them as educationalists.

462
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 5: So she would not be a huge, huge kind of

463
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 5: me and John. Okay, I avoid Amy's sister amazing.

464
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: It's really like.

465
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: Some of the stuff that she says, I'm like, wow,

466
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: where's this coming from?

467
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: Mostly Facebook is the answer.

468
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, So.

469
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 2: Actually that's something that that you highlight in this chapter too.

470
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: And you know, I think like we all know that

471
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: it's gotten worse with social media, but can you talk

472
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 2: a little bit about just how much worse and how

473
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: quickly and and maybe even like I don't know, I

474
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 2: feel like you get at this in a couple of

475
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 2: different ways in the chapter. But it's not just that

476
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: social media has changed, you know, the infrastructure for information

477
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: to move, but it's also changed like how people think

478
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: about information and how they I don't know, like how

479
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: maybe how susceptible they are to climate misinformation. So what

480
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: are some of the key things to look out for there?

481
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 3: So, I mean social media is important because it is

482
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 3: where most people get their information and spend a lot

483
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 3: of their time. Now, you know, traditional media still matters,

484
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 3: So not to say that people that you know, people

485
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 3: don't want cable or don't want evening news or don't

486
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 3: read the newspaper, but their power is waiting considerably. And

487
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 3: what we have instead is, you know, this very fragmented

488
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 3: information landscape that includes all kinds of forms of delivering information.

489
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 3: I mean, podcasts are big now, right and some of

490
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 3: the most important ways in which people get informed now

491
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: and one that's growing in important and our podcasts and

492
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 3: you know that's when we see people like Joe Rogan

493
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 3: who have tremendous power and sway over people, not just

494
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 3: in the United States but all over the world.

495
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 4: And we have.

496
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 3: Social media where you know, people get to interact and

497
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 3: see things in real time, and it's becoming very difficult

498
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 3: to consume news in a way. As a news consumer,

499
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 3: your essentially your job has gotten a lot harder over

500
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 3: the years because if you just wanted to get reliable

501
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 3: information twenty thirty years ago, you could just subscribe to

502
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 3: a newspaper, maybe a magazine, right, you would listen to

503
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 3: to like NPR or something. You had a few sources

504
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 3: that you know, all adhere to journalistic principles and delivered

505
00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 3: for the most part, pretty pretty healthy information diet to you. Now,

506
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 3: to curate that space for you is incredibly difficult because

507
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 3: on social media, the burden falls on you to make

508
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 3: a timeline on Facebook or on Twitter now x on TikTok,

509
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 3: to control what you see and to create a space

510
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 3: for you for yourself that is full of content that

511
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 3: is coming from professionals who you trust, their kind of

512
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 3: information gathering strategies, etc. Right, it's just very difficult for

513
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 3: you to do, even if you want to be responsible

514
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 3: news consumers. It is a very tremendously difficult thing to do.

515
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 3: And even if you try to spend time doing this,

516
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 3: a lot of what you see isn't just what you

517
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 3: want to see, right, It's not just the account that

518
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 3: you follow. A lot of it is algorithmically driven. The

519
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 3: algorithm is a black box, and it's serving you content

520
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 3: that is not necessarily having your best interest in mind.

521
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 5: Right.

522
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 3: So, I think social media are best understood in that

523
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 3: space as a place where misinformation can spread very very

524
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 3: fast and unchecked and can do a lot of damage

525
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 3: before anybody can really do anything about it. And that's

526
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 3: assuming they want to do something about it, which you

527
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 3: know now what we know about major social media companies.

528
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 3: With Donald Trump in again in the White House, they're

529
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 3: previously held positions of trying to fact check and maybe

530
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 3: halt the spread of misinformation. Those commitments are no longer there, right.

531
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 3: So it is very difficult, I think, for you as

532
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 3: a news consumer to just operate out in the world

533
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 3: right now, because it's very time consuming. It's very difficult

534
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 3: to curate a space for yourself, and it's really it's

535
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 3: really hard.

536
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it really is.

537
00:36:58,960 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 4: I know.

538
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 2: I am I had an intern this summer, very smart

539
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 2: young woman, pretty savvy news consumer, wanted to work for

540
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 2: a climate news organization, and like, in our first conversation,

541
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,879
Speaker 2: she told me that she exclusively gets her news from

542
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: this one newsletter on substack, And I looked up the

543
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 2: guy who does it, and he's just he's like a

544
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 2: policy and pr guy. Not She's like, yeah, some he

545
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: like often gets news stories out even before you know,

546
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 2: the major newspapers. And they said, well, yeah, because he's

547
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: not doing any reporting or fact checking, so it's pretty fast.

548
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 5: Worse could have been some guy on TikTok, right, I

549
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 5: could have been I know.

550
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's not even like, oh you know, I

551
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: don't know like doma un educated people are getting their

552
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 2: news that way, but everybody, like everybody is really doing it.

553
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: John, I know you've like you know, worked with these

554
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:58,720
Speaker 1: companies and stuff too.

555
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: So curious to hear your thoughts as well.

556
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it feels like a lifetime ago now, But I

557
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 4: did do some work with Facebook on fact checking climate

558
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 4: misinformation back when they cared about that, So I think

559
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 4: the people I worked with are the longer even there,

560
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 4: or at least that whole department seems to have been disappeared,

561
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 4: But what we were doing was like, well, the impression

562
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 4: I got from working with Facebook was that they were

563
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 4: concerned about the perception that they were allowing this information

564
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 4: to spread on their platform, and so they were being

565
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 4: pushed in these different directions. There was like conservative politicians

566
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 4: that were bullying Zuckerberg in public hearings about censoring climate misinformation,

567
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 4: as they put it, and then there was a lot

568
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 4: of people criticizing them for letting this information spread. So

569
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 4: they were trying to thread this path of least controversy,

570
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 4: which I thought was interesting. And one way that they

571
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 4: tried to manage it was by publishing what they call

572
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 4: the Climate Change Information Center. I haven't even checked to

573
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 4: see whether it's still online now, and the idea there

574
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 4: was promote facts about climate change, but also they were

575
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 4: debunking some climate myths, and myself and a few other

576
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 4: scientists who work on debunking were helping them write those.

577
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 4: So it was an interesting experience. It was good that

578
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 4: they were at least trying something, and we were constantly

579
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 4: pressuring them to try to go further. But what I

580
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 4: learned from that is that these corporations are not a

581
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 4: single money with, but there's lots of forces within them,

582
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 4: all tugging in different directions, and so that made after

583
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,760
Speaker 4: it was a case of two steps forward, one step back.

584
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to have you walk me through this

585
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: typology of disinformation susceptible publics. I found this really useful

586
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: to this way of thinking about the different groups of people.

587
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 5: Yeah.

588
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: Could I have you rattle that off please?

589
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 4: Yeah. So the typology is really a spectrum. So at

590
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 4: one end of the spectrum, you have people who are

591
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 4: immune to climate misinformation. So if they hear some misinformation

592
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 4: on Twitter or x or wherever, they'll you know, they'll

593
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 4: see it for what it is. And these people tend

594
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 4: to be fairly knowledgeable about climate change so that they

595
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 4: are less prone to being misled. Then along the spectrum

596
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 4: you have people who are vulnerable to misinformation and people

597
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 4: who are receptive. These are the two groups in the middle,

598
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 4: and this is most people. So these people are less

599
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 4: knowledgeable about climate change and more susceptible to being persuaded

600
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 4: by misinformation. And then at the other end of the

601
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 4: spectrum you have disinformation amplifiers. So these people are small

602
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 4: in number, but they're often the loudest voices. So they

603
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 4: have a disproportionate influence. So you have at the end

604
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 4: of the spectrum the people who are more knowledgeable in

605
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 4: one way or the other. But then in the middle

606
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 4: you have the people who are less knowledgeable and tend

607
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 4: to be more vulnerable. And the consequence of all the

608
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 4: usefulness of having this kind of typology is it can

609
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 4: help inform communication strategies and often it's about actressing the

610
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 4: people in the middle who are vulnerable, helping them building

611
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 4: their climate literacy or building their critical thinking and their

612
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,919
Speaker 4: immunity against misinformation.

613
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 3: I would add just one thing because it ties into

614
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,479
Speaker 3: the previous question about social media. But like John said,

615
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 3: most people are not the amplifiers, but we frequently.

616
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 5: Have this perception that they are.

617
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 3: And it's partly because of those people frequently are the

618
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 3: ones who have mastered the social media and what gets

619
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 3: rewarded by the algorithm and what doesn't. And you know,

620
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 3: I also say vaccine hesitancy because I'm a massachist apparently,

621
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 3: and this is really something that.

622
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 5: We see in that space as well.

623
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 3: You know that those amplifiers, those highly motivated, very extreme,

624
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 3: these folks, they're just very loud voices of a small

625
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 3: minority but they tend to take over the conversation because

626
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 3: of how our information environment looks, And I think it's

627
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 3: really useful to take the step back and think of

628
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 3: the other people in the spectrum.

629
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 5: As John mentioned, that's a lot more people are there.

630
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

631
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you mentioned these five key beliefs about climate

632
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 2: change that surveys have pinpointed, and conversely, these like five

633
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: mirror images around misinformation. Can I have you lay those

634
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 2: out as well? What are these kind of key believes them?

635
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 2: They are opposites that we're seeing.

636
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 4: So the five key beliefs about climate change were originally

637
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,439
Speaker 4: developed by Ed Maybeck, who happened to be my boss

638
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 4: when I was based at George Mason University, and he

639
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 4: did a lot of psychological research into how people think

640
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 4: about climate change and found that through his survey work,

641
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 4: he identified these five key beliefs and he sums them

642
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 4: up very piply in just ten words. It's real, it's us,

643
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 4: it's bad. Experts agree, there's hope. So it's about it's

644
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 4: about believing that climate change is real, it's happening, humans

645
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 4: are causing it, the impacts will be bad. The climate scientists,

646
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 4: the experts agree on these scientific points, but there is

647
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 4: hope that we can solve climate change. And again, like

648
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 4: what Ed Maybach does is based on these five beliefs.

649
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 4: It helps inform communication strategies and you can design fairly

650
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 4: simple messages to just boost these five beliefs. I've noticed

651
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 4: that since we wrote this chapter and submitted it, Ed

652
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,720
Speaker 4: Maybach has updated it now Now he calls them six

653
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 4: key truths about climate change, and the sixth edition is

654
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 4: people agree or something like that, because there's a common

655
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 4: misconception that people don't aren't concerned about climate change, whereas

656
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 4: in reality, the majority of the public in the US

657
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 4: and globally are concerned. They are on board about climate change,

658
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 4: mirroring what both Dominice and I were saying earlier that

659
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 4: the disinformation amplifies us a tiny minority. They're like about

660
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 4: ten percent of the US public, whereas more than half

661
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 4: of the US public are concerned or alarmed about climate change.

662
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 4: So that's the that's I guess what it is identified

663
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 4: as another important truth or perception.

664
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: Yes, I found this so interesting in your research that

665
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: because the amplifiers are allowed, and because there's this belief

666
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: that no one else cares, it has a silencing effect.

667
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: On people who otherwise might talk more about climate I've

668
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 1: seen this happen with media too. It has an effect

669
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: there as well, where if people call in or email newsrooms,

670
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: a lot of times the head of the newsroom thinks

671
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: that that means, okay, there must be ten, twenty fifty,

672
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: even one hundred other people who feel this way and

673
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: just didn't take the initiative to reach out. So it

674
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: really has a big impact on how stuff gets covered

675
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 1: because they take that as being a signal from the audience.

676
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 4: And yeah, that's a really important dynamic and one of

677
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 4: those more subversive impacts of misinformation. We kind of think

678
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 4: of misinformation's main impact is that it just causes people

679
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 4: to believe wrong things, but it can have a range

680
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 4: of impacts, such as reducing trust in scientists or institutions.

681
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 4: And this is one of the bigger ones is this misconception,

682
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 4: which psychologists call pluralistic ignorance, the fact that we're ignorant

683
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 4: that people concerned about climate change are the majority. And

684
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 4: when we have this misconception of pluralistic ignorance, it has

685
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 4: a silencing effect, which causes this spiral of silence where

686
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 4: no one's hearing anyone else talk about it, so we

687
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 4: all tend to stay silent. And the real world implication

688
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 4: of that is that it reduces the social momentum that

689
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 4: we need to get climate action and that's quite a

690
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 4: damaging impact.

691
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: Climate change misinformation has shifted in the last ten years

692
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 1: or so. What would you say are the four major

693
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: arguments found in climate misinformation today?

694
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, some colleagues that I worked with based in

695
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:53,319
Speaker 4: the UK and Ireland, we developed an AI model to

696
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 4: track climate misinformation arguments and built a twenty year history

697
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 4: of what are the ebbs and flows of climate misinformation

698
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 4: and we found this long term, twenty year trend where

699
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,439
Speaker 4: misinformation was gradually transitioning away from the science denial and

700
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 4: more towards attacking climate solutions. And so we see that

701
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 4: climate solutions misinformation is really the future of what climates

702
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 4: information is going to be increasingly focused on. And that's

703
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 4: what the discourses of delay are. So those are the

704
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:30,479
Speaker 4: arguments designed to delay climate action. And the four main

705
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 4: arguments that we identify in the chapter is firstly that

706
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,839
Speaker 4: overall argument that climate change can't be solved, that it's

707
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 4: the opposite of the there's hope climate by saying there's

708
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 4: no then there's emphasizing the downsides of climate action. So

709
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 4: that's and we hear this argument not only in climate change,

710
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 4: but also we heard a lot during the pandemic, actually

711
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 4: the argument that the cure is worse than the problem.

712
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 4: But major argument we identified was redirecting responsibility for climate

713
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 4: change to others. And I think that fossil fuel industry

714
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 4: have actually done a really clever effective job in trying

715
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 4: to shift the blame for climate change away from themselves

716
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 4: to individuals, saying, you, as an individual, have to solve

717
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,919
Speaker 4: climate change. And not many people know that the first

718
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 4: carbon footprint calculators were funded by the fossil fuel industry.

719
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 4: Now we're trying to get us thinking about our individual

720
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 4: carbon footprint so that we weren't thinking about trying to

721
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 4: transition away from fossil fuels.

722
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 3: Right, it's a fossil fuel company saying, you know, we're

723
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 3: planting trees while they're lobbying against emission rules.

724
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 5: Right, what are you doing?

725
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 4: Right? Yeah, And that's really the fourth argument we identify

726
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 4: in the chapter, which is advocating solutions that really don't

727
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 4: answer the main thing that we needed, such as like

728
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 4: we you know, we do need to reduce our individual footprint,

729
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 4: but that's only going to get us a tiny part

730
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 4: of the way. The real solution is transforming the way

731
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 4: we get our energy, and so I think another example

732
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 4: of that is promoting gas, meat, and gas as a

733
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 4: bridge to renewables. That's just another way of delaying the action,

734
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 4: kicking the can further down the road. And the fact

735
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 4: that it's called natural gas, like that's how they brand themselves,

736
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 4: is just another form of greenwashing. It's a way of

737
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 4: making them portraying themselves as this natural, cleaner form of

738
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 4: energy when it's still just a fossil fuel.

739
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:46,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

740
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Can I have you explain what the FLICK framework

741
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: is and how we can use it to understand climate misinformation.

742
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 4: So FLICK comes out of the logical research into how

743
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 4: do we build public resilience against misinformation, And one of

744
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 4: the ways to do that is by inoculating people by

745
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 4: explaining the techniques used to mislead. Once people understand the

746
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 4: logical fallacies and the misleading rhetorical techniques in misinformation, they're

747
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 4: less likely to be misled. So FLICK was developed as

748
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 4: a as a framework for just helping people remember the

749
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 4: misleading techniques they stand for fake experts, logical fallacies, impossible expectations,

750
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 4: cherry picking, and conspiracy theories, which are five of the

751
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 4: main denial techniques not used used not just in climate

752
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 4: change but across all areas of science. Dominique mentioned being

753
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 4: a masochist and working on vaccine as idency, we see

754
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 4: the flick techniques. Yeah, we see those techniques in vaccine misinformation,

755
00:50:58,640 --> 00:50:59,800
Speaker 4: just the same as climate.

756
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 1: Missf I mean, it definitely seems like the erosion of

757
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,800
Speaker 1: trust and experts and science that happened as a result

758
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: of decades of climate misinformation set us up for a

759
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: lot of the mis info that we saw during the pandemic.

760
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, Like climate misinformation has been happening for decades

761
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 4: since the early ninety nineties, and it's just been creating

762
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 4: this fertile ground for building distrust of scientific institutions and

763
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 4: not just climate scientists, but science more generally. So when

764
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 4: we came around to the pandemic, the playbook was there.

765
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 4: Like what happened over like a six to twelve month

766
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 4: period during the pandemic was like a compressed version of

767
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 4: the last few decades of climate misinformation, using all the

768
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,280
Speaker 4: same techniques. Even the same people were involved, Like climate

769
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 4: deniers were also then promoting vaccine misinformation. So it's all

770
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 4: cut from the same clock.

771
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 1: We kind of talked about this silencing effect already, but

772
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: I want to have you talk about it a little

773
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 1: bit more. You know, any other kinds of silencing that

774
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: happen when I guess when yeah, when people are curing

775
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: all these misleading messages, you know, thinking that everyone else

776
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: doesn't really care, all those kinds of things. What are

777
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 1: the other kind of society wide impacts.

778
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 4: Well, another thing we talk about in the chapter that

779
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 4: we haven't covered yet in this conversation is the silencing

780
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,280
Speaker 4: or the chilling effect it might have on the scientific community.

781
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 4: So scientists are humans too, surprise, surprise. And when people

782
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 4: when a community is being bombarded with stereotype attacks, then

783
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 4: just even without themselves realizing it, they tend to behave

784
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,359
Speaker 4: in a way that tries to avoid that stereotype. So

785
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,959
Speaker 4: when climate scientists are being attacked for being alarmists, then

786
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 4: they tend to downplay the alarming results in their scientific

787
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 4: research to avoid that exception of being an alarmist. And

788
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 4: so there's been studies that have found that climate scientists

789
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 4: tend to err on the side of leash drama trying

790
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 4: to downplay the more alarming results in their research.

791
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 5: And there's a fair amount of aspect that many people

792
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 5: experience as well.

793
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 3: You mentioned they need the people who would call in,

794
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 3: you know, they write, They write emails too, they send

795
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 3: physical mail. I personally have gotten things, mostly in relation

796
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 3: to my work on vaccine hesidency. I think vaccine like

797
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 3: vaccine dent, anti vaxer folks tend to be very motivated

798
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 3: and they really push back. But I've heard stories from

799
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 3: from from colleagues working in the climate space as well,

800
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 3: So it frequently also means actual harassment, which isn't very pleasant.

801
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 3: But going back to your initial original question, it isn't

802
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 3: just misleading people, right. It then reshapes institutions. So like

803
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:21,280
Speaker 3: John said that it will reshape the institution of science

804
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 3: because maybe scientists will speak differently, or maybe they'll they

805
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 3: won't engage in public as much with their work as

806
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 3: they would have done otherwise. It reshapes institutions and policy

807
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 3: because it enables you know, greenwashing and all these other

808
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 3: things that John mentioned in the previous answer. So I

809
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 3: think when you zoom out, what this tells us is

810
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 3: that it's not just specific pieces of misinformation and how

811
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 3: it impacts public opinion per se. It's not just about

812
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 3: the ad level, it's also about the system level guard

813
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 3: guardrails that we need to have in place, right, And

814
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 3: I think a lot of this is highlighted in the

815
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 3: case study that we have in a chapter written by

816
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 3: our written by our colleague, UH Jean Farlow's host Brown Miguel,

817
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 3: who wrote the case study on on on digital populism

818
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 3: and President Bolsonaro and Brazil, where these uh, these climate

819
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 3: misinformation actions where transitioning entire institutions within the government of Brazil.

820
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 3: So it didn't just impact specific people, It impacted how

821
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 3: actual governmental agencies are run, how they're staffed, what they do,

822
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 3: and uh that the impacted not just what's happening in Brazil,

823
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 3: but but you know, what they did on an international

824
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:04,720
Speaker 3: stage and obstructing climate talks, et cetera. So it shows

825
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 3: you how those narratives have the power to reship entire institutions, right.

826
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,960
Speaker 3: And I think the line that Jean Carlos had in

827
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 3: our case that he was in Brazil and mean became

828
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 3: a ministry memo, and that really kind of captures I

829
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,439
Speaker 3: think what has happened, right.

830
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 4: I think what's happening in the US now is particularly

831
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 4: interesting that issue of this misinformation influenced seeping into the

832
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 4: scientific community, that concept of seepage. We were drawing on

833
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 4: a lot of the work of Stephan Landowski is a

834
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:47,799
Speaker 4: researcher in Bristol, and he also has written about the

835
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 4: subterranean war on science, which has been this kind of

836
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 4: a quiet, almost hidden war of harassment or bullying of academics.

837
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 4: And a lot of it has been and I'm sure

838
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 4: this is the case with what Dominic was talking about

839
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 4: being harassed. Often US academics will be pressured or bullied,

840
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 4: but it's kind of hidden, really a lot of it.

841
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 4: But now it's open. It's like we've gone from a

842
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 4: cold war to a hot war. And in the US

843
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 4: that the war on climate science is overt now where

844
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 4: research is being defunded, climate information or just even mentions

845
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 4: of climate are being stripped from government websites, and it's

846
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 4: just a lot more overt this hostility and trying to

847
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 4: undermine climate science.

848
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 1: Okay, can I have you please explain why correcting this

849
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:49,919
Speaker 1: information isn't enough and since it's not, what would be

850
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: enough to combat this problem or at least start to.

851
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, we've talked a lot about motivation, and when people

852
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 4: motivated to reject information, to reject the facts, then fact

853
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 4: checking can struggle to be effective with those types of people.

854
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 4: So fact checking, I think is necessary but insufficient. Like,

855
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 4: we do need to push back against misinformation, but it's

856
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 4: it's not the whole answer, and it won't work in

857
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 4: all cases. So we do need a range of solutions,

858
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 4: and one of them we've already discussed, which is inoculating

859
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 4: people against the misleading techniques of misinformation. The psychology research

860
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 4: shows that that approach that we call it technique based

861
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 4: in opulation or logic based in opulation. Sorry to get

862
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 4: all jargoning on you, but that approach works across the

863
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:52,440
Speaker 4: political spectrum. Nobody likes being misled, whether they're conservative or liberal,

864
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 4: so explaining the techniques used to mislead can help neutralize

865
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 4: polarizing client misinformation across the spectrum. The other thing we discuss,

866
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 4: which is a lot more challenging but really important, is

867
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 4: making systemic changes to make misinformation harder to spread. This

868
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 4: was the kind of thing that I was advocating for

869
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 4: Facebook to do, to build into their algorithms systems to

870
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 4: make it harder for misinformation to spread, and they quite

871
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 4: resistant against it. So I think that it's a very

872
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 4: difficult thing to achieve, but we need to keep working

873
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 4: to try to make those happen.

874
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 1: Use this term in the book that I'd never heard,

875
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 1: and I love it, So I want to end on

876
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: having you define it for us. What is jiu jitsu persuasion?

877
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, the idea was proposed by Matty Hornsey, who's a

878
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 4: colleague at the University of Queensland here in Australia. And

879
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 4: the idea with jujitsu, it's about it's like using your

880
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,959
Speaker 4: opponent's weight, like working with their momentum rather than trying

881
00:59:56,000 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 4: to push back against it. And the idea communication context

882
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:05,480
Speaker 4: is that rather than present scientific misinformation in a way

883
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 4: that threatens people's motivations, beliefs, identity, present instead the science

884
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 4: information in a way that that aligns with people's motivations

885
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 4: or idea of this so you try to work with

886
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 4: it rather than against it. So I'll give you a

887
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 4: tangible example then, and this actually comes back to that

888
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 4: idea of solutions aversion that I talked about way at

889
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 4: the beginning. So there was a study that found that

890
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 4: they presented climate change information in two ways. The climate

891
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 4: science information was exactly the same in both ways, but

892
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 4: in one message they said climate change is real, therefore

893
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 4: we need to regulate the fossil fuel industry. In the

894
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 4: other message, they said climate change is real, therefore we

895
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 4: need to promote the nuclear industry. And they found that

896
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 4: among Republicans they hated the fast message regulate the fossil

897
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 4: fed industry in that way, but they were much more

898
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 4: welcoming of the nuclear industry message, and so their attitude

899
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 4: about climate change was vastly different. Depending on the message.

900
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 4: The scientific information presented was exactly the same, but the

901
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 4: solution was different. One threatened ideology and the other offend.

902
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 1: That's it for this time. Make sure you're subscribed so

903
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 1: you don't miss an episode. You can find more on

904
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:41,440
Speaker 1: this season, including transcripts and lots of related articles and

905
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 1: background information, on our website at drilled dot Media. You

906
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 1: can also sign up for our newsletter there. Our producers

907
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 1: for this season are Martin Saltz Ustwick and Peter duff.

908
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 1: Our theme song is Bird in the Hand by a

909
01:01:56,360 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 1: foreknown Our cover art is by Matthew Fleming. Our first

910
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: Amendment attorney is James Wheaton with the First Amendment Project.

911
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 1: The show was created, written, and reported by me Amy Westervelt.

912
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and see you next time.