WEBVTT - New Climate Dollars Get Cheers, Shrugs From States 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.880 Today on the podcast, state legislator has just got a 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:05.240 ton of money for the environment and more specifically to 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:07.440 fight climate change. What are they going to use all 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:09.600 this money for? And will some of them not use 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:16.959 it at all? Hello, and welcome back once again to 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:19.800 Parts per Billion, the environmental podcast from Bloomberg Law. I'm 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.560 your host David Schultz. So we all know there are 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.400 a lot of environmental provisions in the Inflation Reduction Act, 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:28.360 also known as the IRA or IRA depending on which 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:31.200 everyone sounds better to you. The tax breaks in the bill, 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:33.880 especially for electric vehicles, got a lot of the headlines, 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:35.560 but there was also a lot of money for things 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.280 less glamorous than a shiny new tesla, things like efficiency 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:42.400 in buildings and air pollution reduction. And a big chunk 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:44.800 of that money is going directly to states. But what 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:47.159 about the states that don't really think climate change is 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:49.159 a big priority? How are they going to spend this? 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.279 Are they going to spend this? We're gonna get into 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:54.520 that today with Zach Bright, a Bloomberg Law reporter who 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:57.480 just wrote a story about what legislators in Annapolis, Olympia 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:01.720 and St. Paul want to do with their new climate bucks. Zexas. 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.319 Climate hawks and democratic leading states are pretty thrilled with 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.200 this infusion of cash, even if they have some misgivings 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.080 about how I wrote. Ultimately turned out, and he started 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:12.560 off by outlining exactly what type of funding is in 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:16.679 this bill for states? Yeah, well, there's definitely a lot 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.160 of stuff in this bill overall. Um, the things that 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:21.319 I focused on in my article where I looked at 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:23.920 how state legislators might levy some of that money and 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:26.440 what they're most interested in. Um, one of the things 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.399 that stuck out were to four point three billion dollar 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:33.920 programs to kind of electrified buildings, retrofit buildings, and then 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.280 there was also an additional billion dollars for building code upgrades. 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:40.240 And then, uh, some other pots of money that they 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:45.679 were interested in were five billion dollars for states, municipalities, tribes, 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:49.600 air resources boards like they have in California to develop 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:53.640 emission reduction plans and to implement them. And then seven 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.520 billion dollars for UM low income and underserved communities to 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.320 actually implement technologies that reduce carbon emiss. Something that caught 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.720 my ear just now is electrifying buildings. Uh what does 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:06.520 that mean? I mean, I know it doesn't mean giving 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:10.720 buildings electricity because most buildings have electricity, but what, um, 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.919 you know, does that mean removing you know, fossil fuel 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:18.040 burning heating systems and buildings and replacing them with electric 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:20.079 Is that what we're talking about. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:22.360 part of it. A lot of buildings still, you know, 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:24.480 don't have heat pumps, and heat pumps are more energy 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:27.119 efficient way of heating a building. UM. So that's part 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.640 of what they want to do. And watherizing buildings can 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.880 also be helpful to prevent you know, heat from going 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.760 out on cold days and the cold from going out 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:39.240 on hot days. Um. And that helps towards that energy efficiency. 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:41.600 The whole idea is if you you know, make a 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.160 building run on electricity and then you clean up the 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:47.440 source and you have all that power coming from clean energy, 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:51.640 then you don't really have any emissions. Yeah, that makes sense. Um. 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:55.160 And you also spoke with the state lawmakers who are 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.040 looking at this money and sort of already making designs 0:02:58.040 --> 0:02:59.720 for what they want to do with it. Can you 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:01.520 tell me about who you talked to and sort of 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.320 what they want to do? Yeah, definitely. So I talked 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:10.320 specifically with three state legislators UM Maryland Delegate Lord Chercotian, 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:17.639 Minnesota Representative Fuli, and then UM Washington State Senator Christine Rolfus, 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:19.919 and UM, it was really great to talk to all 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.600 three to get these different perspectives UM on like how 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:27.040 exactly they'd implement the IRA. But I mean, overall, one 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:29.959 caveat that's important is that this is very much in 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.919 the beginning stages. The law was signed very recently. When 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:34.880 I talked to these state legislators, you know, they were 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:38.080 very excited overall, I would say, but at the same time, 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:40.360 they weren't exactly sure what they were going to do. 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:43.080 But there was definitely some talk about possibilities and some 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:45.600 of those possibilities UM. You know, when I spoke with 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:49.200 the Delegate Sharkutian, she had said that, UM, maybe it 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:53.560 could mean bigger offshore wind goals for Maryland. UM or 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:57.400 you know, representatively had talked about UM really benefiting the 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:01.680 low and UM middle income families, often people color, he 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:05.680 said in his Minneapolis district. Senator Rolfus from Washington has 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.920 had that that could really you know, tie in well 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:12.360 with the state's already existing UM cap and invest program. 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:14.960 That makes sense. And or I should say in the 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:19.440 interest of full disclosure, Delegate Arcudian is, uh, my delegate. 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.359 She represents me, so I am her constituent. UM. But 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:27.440 I want to focus on what delicately said about sort 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.440 of focusing on low income residents. You know, this is 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:35.480 a concept known as as climate justice. UM. Do you 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:37.800 think that a lot of this money will go toward that, 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:43.040 towards sort of helping people who are from disadvantaged communities 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.560 weather climate change. Yeah, I think there's definitely like an 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:50.200 intentionality within the bill, and these um state legislators as 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.279 well seem to have like a very you know, UM 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:57.800 strong recognition that when these climate investments are actually put 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.080 into action, they need to act really benefit low and 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:03.880 middle income communities because oftentimes those are the ones who 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.200 um don't really get the benefits and who are even 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:10.320 overburdened by pollution. You know, for example, with the whole 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:13.599 vehicle electrification movement, the idea that you know, we we 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.920 need more electric vehicles and less gas powered ones. You know, 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.159 one of the big pushes there is to kind of 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:24.280 allow your everyday family to buy into that market, because 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.880 right now it's it's it's very difficult if you wanted 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:28.960 to get an electric vehicle to do that, and the 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:31.320 i RA does include provisions to do that, and that 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:35.560 that would be individual rebates for citizens, so that wouldn't 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.080 even have to go through the state. That's kind of 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:40.400 something that is implemented UM directly from the top down. 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:43.760 That makes sense because you know, there has been a 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.279 lot of talk about this provision in the bill that 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:50.000 would make it easier to get tax breaks for electric vehicles, 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:53.400 but you know, a lot of these vehicles are out 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.800 of reach for many many people. UM, it sounds like 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.080 there are also provisions in the bill to make sure 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:01.479 that you know, that's not the only kind of thing 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:05.160 that uh, you know it is going to be happening 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:08.839 with this money, right. Yeah, there's definitely other UM investments 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.120 as well. Like I mentioned earlier, there's a billion dollar 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.920 investment UM towards building cold upgrades, and then more specifically, 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:20.040 there's seven billion dollars dedicated toward low income UM communities 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:23.160 to make sure that they can actually harness all these 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.200 different technologies. That includes electric vehicles, but then also that 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:31.240 includes you know, building retrofits and just everyday needs that 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:45.960 really focus on reducing carbon emissions. So you spoke to 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:51.760 UM lawmakers from Washington, Maryland, in Minnesota, which were all 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:55.640 pretty blue states or in some cases, you know, very 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:58.520 very blue states. Uh. And you know these are all 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:04.000 Democratic politicians, and the interesting dynamic that you had in 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:06.159 your story is that they were all pretty excited about, 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:08.520 you know, potentially using this money for climate goals and 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:12.000 for environmental goals, but they also were a little bit 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.840 ambivalent about the bill itself because you know, as we 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:17.840 actually talked about in our last episode, it also gives 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.200 a lot of concessions to the fossil fuel industry. Can 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:24.120 you tell me a little bit about the ambivalence there? 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:29.160 I mean there it sounds like they're happy but not happy. Yeah, 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.720 that's exactly what Delegate Shercodian said. You know, she's happy 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.480 with the bill, um, and she's celebrating that. But at 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:39.400 the same time, um, you know she mentioned, and then 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:41.760 the other lawmakers had mentioned, you know, there there are 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.800 things in this bill that could be better. First of all, 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.400 you know, Senator Role has mentioned that it might be 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:50.480 better to have like a national pollution framework. She talked 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.040 about how in Washington they have a Captain invest program. 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.000 It's similar to California's cap and Trade program, and all 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.960 the West coast states Washington, Oregon, and California have programs 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:01.160 like that, but they're isn't one at the national level. 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:03.640 She was saying, maybe something like that could be considered 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:06.720 as a regulatory framework. There's a lot of carrots in 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.320 the bill, but maybe there could be more sticks and 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:11.880 then UM in terms of like the oil and gas 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.000 leasing as well. You know, that can have really big 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:18.000 impacts for frontline communities that Delgo. Sharcutian and UM representatively 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.119 had both pointed out. You know, yeah, that's just something 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:23.360 that they have to bear in mind, and they definitely 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.600 understand the political necessity of getting this bill forward, but 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.480 at the same time, you know, they think it could 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.840 have been better. So finally, this is something that I 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:36.679 really want to dig deep into. UM Again, as we mentioned, 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.640 you know, this is what lawmakers in blue states are 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.480 wanting to do. What about in red states? You know, 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.920 this is uh. You know, there are some states where 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:50.960 Republicans are control and climate measures. Climate mitigation is not 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:56.160 really their top priority or any priority. Are they going 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:58.360 to be using this money or are they going to 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:00.640 leave it on the table, or are gonna be using 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:02.839 the money for something that the Bill didn't intend them 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.320 to do. I'm really interested to hear what is going 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.680 on there. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question. 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:10.760 And that's actually something I kind of pursued and further 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.199 reporting that wasn't part of this story. UM. I talked 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:14.840 with a couple of mayors, and I'm going to continue 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.360 talking with some mayors who are really interested in climate 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:21.560 action UM. But the catches is that they're from states 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:26.880 where the legislatures and the governor's mansions are controlled by Republicans. So, 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:31.120 for example, I spoke with UM mayor Satia Rhodes Conway 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.880 from Madison, and she's in Wisconsin, where you know, there's 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:38.480 a Democratic governor, but the Republicans controlled the legislature, and 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:42.360 she was saying, you know, it actually turns out that 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.319 there was some foresight to a degree, UM in that 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.760 kind of situation. You know, what comes to mind for 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:50.880 me is when UM states received the option to expand 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:53.400 medicaid and so I just chose not to. And you know, 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:57.040 that kind of implement implementation problem is certainly possible with 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.880 some things, but in general, UM, the way to circumvent 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.480 is to either a UM make those benefits flow directly 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:07.560 to people so things like the electric vehicle tax rebates, 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.280 for example, those don't have to go through the legislature. 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.760 And then also UM things can be implemented directly by 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.000 federal agencies and then they wouldn't have to go through 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:18.920 the legislature. But that's not to say that there's nothing 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.199 that state legislatures might prevent. So one instance that UM 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:27.440 Mayor wrote Conway had subsided was that and Madison. If 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:31.160 they wanted to, for example, make building codes UH stronger 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:33.760 than the state standards and make them more efficient to 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.839 reduce carbon emissions, they couldn't do that at all because 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:39.760 the state UM has law on the books that says 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:44.959 you can't UM exceed our state standards. That's really interesting. 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:48.600 So it sounds like when Democrats and the President were 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:50.920 crafting the bill they anticipated that there would be some 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.720 states that wouldn't be on board, and they inserted measures 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:57.160 into it. Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely the case UM. And 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:00.320 in blue states like in Maryland, for example, they've asked 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:04.199 a climate law back in April, and this money pairs 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.840 really well with that UM. So for states that are 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:08.719 willing to act on climate, this is going to be 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.160 a huge help to reaching those goals and make things 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.240 actually achievable for the states that might not be interested 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:16.920 in climate might I think climate is not an issue 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:22.319 at all for those UM legislators and UM executive officeholders. 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.720 You know that there are still things that can be done, 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:26.880 just maybe not everything, maybe not every tool in the 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:30.120 tool kit, but you and that you know. You contrasted 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:34.480 this with the infrastructure bill that was passed last year 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.400 and how almost all of the money from that bill 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.560 did go to to states, whereas in this case it's 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.160 you know, a lot more varied. I think was that 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:47.400 that sounds like it was intentional? Yeah, I think, um 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:50.719 there was some intention there. I can't speak to you 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:55.240 know totally, like, um, who exactly created those designs and 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.360 the butt us actually something I'm trying to UM find out. 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:00.360 What I can say is the Infrastructure bill a really 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:06.360 interesting comparison because UM that the Infrastructure law gave states 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:08.400 a lot of money, and at the time, a lot 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.199 of state legislators thought, well, this is all we kind 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.240 of have to combat climate. You know, we have to 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.840 tailor this, you know, spoon into a fork and use 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:21.760 it to eat. And now they have a fork which 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:23.120 is the I ra A. So I don't know if 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.120 that's maybe the best analogy, but they have a tool 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:29.920 that's very precise, and those funds have to be for 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.080 climate so I don't think I think it's less likely 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.640 you would see a situation now where UM state legislators 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:38.480 might take this money and use it for priorities that 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:40.240 aren't based on climate change, because they kind of have 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:42.160 to if they want to use it. That makes sense, 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.640 all right, Spoons Forks and Zach bright Uh here talking 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:51.439 about the new i R A Inflation Reduction Act. Thank 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.319 you so much for joining us. Yeah, thanks for having me, David, 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:58.439 And that'll do it for today's episode of Parts for Billion. 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:00.720 If you want more environmental news, check out on Twitter. 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.960 We use the handle at environment just that at Environment. 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:06.680 Today's episode of Parts for Billion is produced by myself, 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:09.320 David Schultz. Parts for Billion was created by Jessica Combs 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.840 and Rachel Dagle and is edited by Zach Sherwood and 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.840 Chuck McCutcheon. Our executive producer is Josh Block. Thanks everyone 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:20.839 for listening. Have you ever thought to yourself, how is 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.400 that legal? Why is that legal? Have you ever seen 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:27.120 a big trial in the news and wondered what's really 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.440 happening there. Have you ever pondered the question why are 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:32.959 lawyers the way that they are? And how much money 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.800 do they really make? Anyway, these are the things we 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:38.760 live and breathe over it. On the Merits, Bloomberg Laws 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.320 weekly legal news podcast. On the Merits looks into the 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.320 biggest stories playing out in the legal industry right now, 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.959 and we feature the finest journalists covering the biggest legal 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.160 stories from across the Bloomberg Law newsroom. You can hear 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.319 it wherever fine podcasts are found. Thanks for listening.