WEBVTT - Squeezing the Entire Internet Into a Shoebox 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:24.516 Pushkin. Every cell in your body is an incredible data 0:00:24.636 --> 0:00:29.276 storage device. Inside the nucleus of almost every cell is 0:00:29.316 --> 0:00:34.636 your entire genetic code, all of your DNA arranged just so, 0:00:34.956 --> 0:00:41.476 providing the complete blueprint of you in every cell. Unbelievable. 0:00:41.916 --> 0:00:45.476 A few decades ago, some scientists considered this fact and thought, 0:00:46.196 --> 0:00:49.636 DNA has stored the data of pretty much every living 0:00:49.676 --> 0:00:54.356 thing on Earth for billions of years. It's incredibly efficient, reliable. 0:00:54.556 --> 0:00:57.436 We know it works. What if we could use it 0:00:57.516 --> 0:01:01.196 to store other kinds of data for certain things? It 0:01:01.236 --> 0:01:04.876 could be profoundly better than the hard drives and tapes 0:01:04.916 --> 0:01:08.996 were currently using for data storage. And now they've figured 0:01:08.996 --> 0:01:15.996 out how to do it. I'm Jacob Goldstein and this 0:01:16.116 --> 0:01:19.596 is What's Your Problem, the show where engineers and entrepreneurs 0:01:19.756 --> 0:01:21.996 talk about how they're going to change the world once 0:01:22.036 --> 0:01:25.796 they solve a few problems. My guest today is Emily Laprust. 0:01:26.236 --> 0:01:30.196 She's the co founder and CEO of Twist Bioscience, one 0:01:30.236 --> 0:01:33.916 of the leading companies working on storing data in DNA. 0:01:34.276 --> 0:01:38.876 Sounds like science fiction, it's just science. Emily's problem, how 0:01:38.916 --> 0:01:42.196 do you make storing data in DNA as cheap as 0:01:42.236 --> 0:01:47.756 storing it on a hard drug. Emily's company, Twist, is 0:01:47.796 --> 0:01:51.796 in the DNA synthesis business. They make and sell custom 0:01:51.916 --> 0:01:56.596 DNA to researchers and healthcare companies, and Twist is also 0:01:56.716 --> 0:01:59.876 part of a group of companies, including Microsoft and the 0:02:00.036 --> 0:02:03.356 data storage company Western Digital, that are trying to bring 0:02:03.716 --> 0:02:06.636 DNA storage to market. It's clear that it can work 0:02:06.676 --> 0:02:08.796 in the lab. The trick now is to make it 0:02:08.836 --> 0:02:11.676 work in the real world and have the economics makes sense. 0:02:12.476 --> 0:02:15.516 We started our conversation by talking about a key problem 0:02:15.796 --> 0:02:20.036 with how data storage works today. Hard drives and flash 0:02:20.116 --> 0:02:22.796 drives and even old fashioned tape which is still used, 0:02:23.156 --> 0:02:28.036 are all based on magnetization, and magnetization just does not 0:02:28.196 --> 0:02:32.596 work for long term storage. It's unreliable, it degrades, and 0:02:32.676 --> 0:02:35.156 so if you want to achive data for a very 0:02:35.156 --> 0:02:37.516 long time, what you have to do is every five 0:02:37.556 --> 0:02:39.956 to seven years, you have to take the data from 0:02:39.996 --> 0:02:42.596 one hob drive to the next, or from one day 0:02:42.636 --> 0:02:44.436 to the next, or from one flash to the next 0:02:44.556 --> 0:02:47.796 every five years, because you just can't trust that the 0:02:47.876 --> 0:02:51.196 data will stay there more than five years. And so 0:02:51.636 --> 0:02:55.476 the system we have now, obviously it's great, right, like 0:02:55.636 --> 0:02:58.516 data storage is this amazing miracle of the modern world. 0:02:58.556 --> 0:03:02.956 But you're saying a flaw with it is it doesn't 0:03:03.076 --> 0:03:08.036 work forever. In fact, it becomes unreliable after five years on. 0:03:09.116 --> 0:03:11.716 One of the big effort that's going on there is 0:03:12.076 --> 0:03:17.076 exactly that it's constantly replacing hard drives that are broken 0:03:17.156 --> 0:03:20.596 with new ones, and so the migration, the maintenance, and 0:03:20.676 --> 0:03:25.156 the energy that you need to do that is a 0:03:25.196 --> 0:03:29.556 big issue for archiving, and archiving is more than sixty 0:03:29.556 --> 0:03:31.956 percent of the market of data. And so that's where 0:03:32.076 --> 0:03:36.436 DNA and totally changings is you could archive data for 0:03:36.436 --> 0:03:40.116 a long time with no migration, no maintenance, no energy, 0:03:40.236 --> 0:03:43.436 and that could be a game changer. So the key 0:03:43.636 --> 0:03:46.276 use case is like, it's not my phone, it's not 0:03:46.356 --> 0:03:48.916 my laptop, it's not anything I'm sort of personally doing. 0:03:48.996 --> 0:03:52.556 It's maybe if I'm saving something to the cloud, you know, 0:03:52.676 --> 0:03:57.636 my whatever, kids, baby pictures, and presumably more significantly big 0:03:57.716 --> 0:04:01.596 institutional sort of corporate or governmental kind of files. I mean, 0:04:01.636 --> 0:04:04.876 it's that the real opportunity that you're talking about here. Yeah, exactly, 0:04:04.996 --> 0:04:07.236 DNA will never be on on your computer. It's not 0:04:07.476 --> 0:04:10.956 for what's called data. So the data will get in 0:04:10.956 --> 0:04:15.556 and out all the time. It's it's more fall cool data. 0:04:15.716 --> 0:04:18.276 That's the data that you read that infrequently, but that 0:04:18.476 --> 0:04:22.436 is the majority of the data out there that DNA 0:04:22.516 --> 0:04:25.516 can solve. If you're a bank, if you are an 0:04:25.716 --> 0:04:27.916 insurance company, you have to store the data for a 0:04:27.956 --> 0:04:31.156 very long time. If you're a government, you want you 0:04:31.196 --> 0:04:33.076 need to store that that for a long time. So 0:04:33.156 --> 0:04:35.236 the longer you're going to need to keep the data, 0:04:35.396 --> 0:04:41.316 the more it makes sense to store it in DNA exactly. 0:04:41.516 --> 0:04:44.436 And that's why the first project we're going to launch 0:04:44.516 --> 0:04:47.716 is we call it a century Archive, so it's basically 0:04:47.876 --> 0:04:51.236 you purchase one hundred years of storage. I like that. 0:04:51.236 --> 0:04:54.396 That's good branding. Did a marketing person come up with that? 0:04:54.436 --> 0:04:56.396 Did you come up with that? I did not come 0:04:56.476 --> 0:05:00.356 up with that, but yes, definitely a very clever marketing 0:05:00.356 --> 0:05:03.476 person came up with that. And then after that we'll 0:05:03.876 --> 0:05:08.036 sell the Millennium Archive, the Millennium, the Millennium Archive. But well, 0:05:08.116 --> 0:05:10.116 let's get to one hundred first. We can I can 0:05:10.196 --> 0:05:12.316 have you on a year. We can talk about the 0:05:12.396 --> 0:05:15.916 Millennium Archive, but so are you right now selling a 0:05:15.956 --> 0:05:19.836 product where if a company wants to save something for 0:05:19.876 --> 0:05:21.596 a hundred years, they can give you money and you 0:05:21.636 --> 0:05:24.476 will store their data in DNA. Does that exist? Yeah, 0:05:24.556 --> 0:05:26.316 we've done it before. Right now, we are in the 0:05:26.476 --> 0:05:31.436 early access, so it's not fully broadly available. But someone 0:05:31.516 --> 0:05:34.516 comes today and they have money, will definitely do it 0:05:34.556 --> 0:05:38.196 for them. The one thing though, today it's still is 0:05:38.236 --> 0:05:43.316 still quite expensive, and we're working to make it affordable. 0:05:43.476 --> 0:05:45.196 It will couse a little bit more up front, not 0:05:45.236 --> 0:05:47.876 too much because people don't really want to be a 0:05:47.876 --> 0:05:51.756 premium and this market is the elastic so it's kind 0:05:51.756 --> 0:05:56.476 of ironic. But the lower the price of what we sell, 0:05:56.676 --> 0:06:00.036 the more we're gonna sell. We're gonna sell it. Sure. No, 0:06:00.196 --> 0:06:06.476 that is a very intuitive relationship and a classic issue 0:06:06.476 --> 0:06:09.036 in technology. Right you have this new thing and it's 0:06:09.236 --> 0:06:12.436 really expensive, so nobody's buying it, and the way it 0:06:12.476 --> 0:06:14.836 gets cheaper is lots of people buy it and then 0:06:14.876 --> 0:06:17.676 you figure out the economy of scale and it gets cheaper. 0:06:17.676 --> 0:06:19.756 I mean, it's that the dynamic you're talking about here, 0:06:20.036 --> 0:06:22.916 that's exactly the dynamic. And DNA is amazing for that 0:06:23.316 --> 0:06:28.076 um because DNA is extremely tiny. Yeah, it's extremely dense. 0:06:28.436 --> 0:06:31.916 You could take all the data in the Internet and 0:06:32.596 --> 0:06:36.196 which is youtue, I mean everything, it's the whole world, 0:06:37.036 --> 0:06:39.276 and it will fit in a shoe box if you 0:06:39.316 --> 0:06:44.836 put it in DNA. So I want to understand a 0:06:44.876 --> 0:06:47.916 little bit what that means, because it's so not intuitive. 0:06:48.076 --> 0:06:51.316 So all the data on the Internet means like every 0:06:52.156 --> 0:06:55.636 video that's on YouTube, everything everybody has ever posted to 0:06:55.636 --> 0:06:59.716 the internet, every tweet, every Facebook post, everything, everything, So 0:06:59.876 --> 0:07:03.756 that all exists now on hard drives, right, and giant 0:07:03.836 --> 0:07:07.716 rooms full of computers all over the world, cooled by fans. Right, 0:07:07.796 --> 0:07:10.476 Like all the data on the Internet exists now sort 0:07:10.476 --> 0:07:15.276 of distributed across many, many warehouses. Like just do you 0:07:15.396 --> 0:07:17.196 do you know how much space it takes up? Now? 0:07:17.356 --> 0:07:19.356 I don't know. I don't have any idea. I don't know, 0:07:19.436 --> 0:07:23.156 but it's it's it's millions and minus of square foot. 0:07:23.156 --> 0:07:27.676 What I do know is that one Facebook data center 0:07:29.156 --> 0:07:33.836 in Texas uses two percent of the Texas electricity. When 0:07:33.836 --> 0:07:36.996 we talk about storing data in DNA, can you walk 0:07:37.036 --> 0:07:40.356 me through, actually what happens. What happens somebody wants to 0:07:40.396 --> 0:07:43.916 save whatever, a movie, a Netflix movie, and instead of 0:07:43.956 --> 0:07:46.756 saving it on a little chip, they save it in DNA. 0:07:46.996 --> 0:07:51.476 So storage of data is a bunch of zeros and ones. Right, 0:07:51.556 --> 0:07:56.236 It's the binary code DNA four letters ACGT, And just 0:07:56.276 --> 0:07:58.356 to be super clear, when you say four letters, I 0:07:58.356 --> 0:08:01.676 mean all. All DNA is made up of four basically 0:08:01.836 --> 0:08:05.236 types of molecules, and only four. That's right. If you 0:08:05.396 --> 0:08:09.876 look at any DNA of any leaving organism from the 0:08:09.876 --> 0:08:15.556 biggest to the smoot one, that DNA is made of foditos, acg, NT, 0:08:16.276 --> 0:08:21.836 and the function of that organism is based on in 0:08:21.836 --> 0:08:27.396 which orders the acgs and ts linked together. Emily says, 0:08:27.476 --> 0:08:30.196 to use DNA to store a movie, or to store 0:08:30.236 --> 0:08:33.036 any kind of data, you let each of the four 0:08:33.156 --> 0:08:37.596 letters represent a binary pair. So for example, you could 0:08:37.596 --> 0:08:41.276 say zero zero is A and zero one is C, 0:08:41.676 --> 0:08:45.356 one one is T, and one zero is G. Once 0:08:45.396 --> 0:08:48.356 you've done that, you can take any digital file. You 0:08:48.356 --> 0:08:51.796 can take that movie and on a computer convert the 0:08:51.916 --> 0:08:54.996 zeros and ones that represent the movie into a string 0:08:55.036 --> 0:08:59.196 of the letters ACTG. That string of letters is your blueprint. 0:08:59.716 --> 0:09:03.356 And then the next step is kind of amazing because 0:09:03.436 --> 0:09:06.276 we are so used to everything happening, you know, digitally 0:09:06.316 --> 0:09:09.956 on the computer. The next step is a machine about 0:09:09.996 --> 0:09:13.956 the size of an SUV actually starts printing strands of 0:09:14.036 --> 0:09:17.716 DNA based on that digital blueprint. What we're going to 0:09:17.916 --> 0:09:21.916 actually physically synthesize, We're going to make it from scratch, 0:09:22.596 --> 0:09:25.716 is a bunch of little pieces of DNA that has 0:09:25.756 --> 0:09:28.476 two to three hundred litters. Okay, so is that the 0:09:28.516 --> 0:09:30.356 next step. It's still on the computer, but now the 0:09:30.396 --> 0:09:37.036 computer tells some DNA synthesis machine what molecules to synthesize. 0:09:36.916 --> 0:09:39.116 Where the a's go, where the teas go, where the 0:09:39.116 --> 0:09:41.796 ceas go, where the gee's go. Yeah, so exactly, So 0:09:41.876 --> 0:09:46.796 a twist, we build a DNA three D printer basically, 0:09:47.196 --> 0:09:49.716 ok and we have a we have a piece of silicon. 0:09:50.316 --> 0:09:52.836 It's a citicin chip, and so on. Our citic and chip. 0:09:53.276 --> 0:09:58.636 The first generation that we made at one million pieces 0:09:58.676 --> 0:10:02.076 of DNA. The current generation we're working on as two 0:10:02.236 --> 0:10:06.036 hundred fifty six million. Okay, And so we have a 0:10:06.036 --> 0:10:08.116 we have a cilican chip, and then we have a printer. 0:10:08.356 --> 0:10:10.436 So I want to keep going with our sort of 0:10:10.476 --> 0:10:13.996 how does it work narrative here. So we got the 0:10:14.076 --> 0:10:16.116 movie that was already ones and zeros. The ones and 0:10:16.196 --> 0:10:23.956 zeros became ATCNG, those got split up into little packets. Yeah, 0:10:24.036 --> 0:10:28.916 the computer told the three D printer basically what actual 0:10:28.956 --> 0:10:33.516 ATCNG to print physically the actual chemicals on a silicon chip, 0:10:33.636 --> 0:10:37.716 hundreds of millions of them, and then we got delivered 0:10:37.796 --> 0:10:40.556 that ACGT at the right location at the right time. 0:10:40.636 --> 0:10:42.796 And so we start from the citic ins ship. There 0:10:42.836 --> 0:10:44.836 is no DNA on it. And then we come in 0:10:44.876 --> 0:10:46.836 and we print the first layer. So we put the 0:10:46.876 --> 0:10:49.396 first ACGT on the surface, and then we come in 0:10:49.516 --> 0:10:53.756 again to put the second layer of SEGT again the third. 0:10:53.836 --> 0:10:56.476 We do that two to three hundred times, and so 0:10:56.516 --> 0:11:01.876 we are building DNA up to three hundred letters and 0:11:01.956 --> 0:11:05.956 we do that millions of time on the Citicin chip. Okay, 0:11:06.036 --> 0:11:10.036 so now you've got a silicon chip with DNA on it. 0:11:10.676 --> 0:11:14.236 What happens next? Yeah, So at that point the density 0:11:14.356 --> 0:11:16.476 is not that great. It's kind of like a hard drive. 0:11:16.876 --> 0:11:19.876 But then the beauties. You can remove the DNA from 0:11:19.916 --> 0:11:22.276 the citikinship. I want to keep track of that DNA. 0:11:22.356 --> 0:11:25.316 You just synthesize. Where does it go? You just dry 0:11:25.356 --> 0:11:28.596 it down and it's so tiny what you've made. It's 0:11:28.636 --> 0:11:33.396 a speck of dust. You can't see it. So now 0:11:33.436 --> 0:11:37.236 it goes into a tiny vessel. But it's called the 0:11:37.356 --> 0:11:42.036 DNA shell. Yeah, it's a good name. It's not ours. 0:11:42.076 --> 0:11:46.276 We buy it, and it's a piece of stainless steel 0:11:46.796 --> 0:11:50.516 and there's a glass cutting inside. You put your the 0:11:50.676 --> 0:11:53.796 DNA in it, you dry down the water, you sell it, 0:11:54.316 --> 0:11:57.356 and you put ilium, so there's no oxygen, no water. 0:11:58.116 --> 0:12:02.196 And in that DNAs shell you can put hundreds of 0:12:02.316 --> 0:12:06.956 Google Data Center in that DNA shell, like every movie 0:12:07.076 --> 0:12:10.076 on Netflix. You could pack in a out of DNA 0:12:10.196 --> 0:12:12.516 in it. And and then you see it and that 0:12:12.636 --> 0:12:16.516 is stable for thousands of years. And how big is it? 0:12:16.516 --> 0:12:19.956 It's uh so, you know, I live in Montana. Everybody 0:12:19.956 --> 0:12:21.996 has guns here, so it's the size of a small 0:12:22.076 --> 0:12:29.036 caliber bullet. That's nice. Okay, So about like I live 0:12:29.076 --> 0:12:32.116 in Brooklyn where fewer people have guns at least as 0:12:32.116 --> 0:12:33.716 far as I know. So would it be about like 0:12:33.756 --> 0:12:37.236 the size of like a like a bean. It would 0:12:37.276 --> 0:12:40.636 be the size of two black beans. Okay. You can 0:12:40.716 --> 0:12:44.236 put every movie on Netflix in there, that's right, and 0:12:44.316 --> 0:12:47.956 then you can store it your room. Tompret show um 0:12:47.996 --> 0:12:52.516 in the sun. You know, it's it's extremely stable for forever. 0:12:52.796 --> 0:12:55.116 And then when you want the data bag. So now 0:12:55.116 --> 0:12:57.516 it's fifty years later and I want to watch that 0:12:57.596 --> 0:13:00.596 movie again. Because I forgot that it wasn't very good. 0:13:00.676 --> 0:13:03.236 Well oh you oh, let me say, jeez, you know 0:13:03.316 --> 0:13:07.716 there's something happened to to the Netflix that are center, 0:13:07.876 --> 0:13:11.196 and you know that movie is gone. We need to 0:13:11.196 --> 0:13:13.956 get it back. That's the real practical use for this. 0:13:13.996 --> 0:13:16.356 I would imagine it's that like, at least for now, 0:13:16.356 --> 0:13:18.916 it's like a backup. It's like a super safe backup, 0:13:18.996 --> 0:13:22.156 even if all of the data centers get hacked or 0:13:22.156 --> 0:13:25.276 blown up or whatever. You have this volt Yeah, yeah, 0:13:25.316 --> 0:13:27.676 it's a very it's it's the vault exactly so exactly 0:13:27.716 --> 0:13:30.796 that that's the ultimate vault. And the beauty is DNA. 0:13:30.876 --> 0:13:34.076 You can make a copy very easily. Let's go back. 0:13:34.076 --> 0:13:38.276 So we have our all of Netflix in a little 0:13:38.356 --> 0:13:44.116 cylinder size of two beans. Well, now we want to 0:13:44.156 --> 0:13:46.356 get the data. How do we get the data off there? 0:13:46.556 --> 0:13:50.116 So you you crack open the shell and you put 0:13:50.156 --> 0:13:53.156 it in what's called a sequencer. So it's a machine 0:13:53.196 --> 0:13:56.436 that reads DNA. And the sequencer is not fast. It's 0:13:56.516 --> 0:14:00.556 twelve hours. So twelve hours later you'll get your data. 0:14:00.756 --> 0:14:03.836 And now it's still ACGT in the computer and you 0:14:03.876 --> 0:14:07.916 have to do the reverse decoding. You have to turn 0:14:07.996 --> 0:14:10.596 the ACGT in two zeros on one and that's the 0:14:10.716 --> 0:14:12.316 end of the story, right, and then you can watch 0:14:12.396 --> 0:14:19.436 the movie that you encoded today exactly exactly. Sounds amazing, 0:14:19.956 --> 0:14:22.636 DNA all of Netflix and a cylinder the size of 0:14:22.636 --> 0:14:26.956 two black beans. But DNA storage is not yet a 0:14:27.036 --> 0:14:30.036 thing that is really happening in the world at scale. 0:14:30.756 --> 0:14:33.316 In a minute, the problem Emily has to solve for 0:14:33.356 --> 0:14:36.236 that to happen, for DNA storage to become a real 0:14:36.316 --> 0:14:45.956 thing in the world. Now, let's get back to the show. 0:14:46.996 --> 0:14:50.796 So it sounds amazing. I'm sold the Internet in a shoebox. 0:14:51.916 --> 0:14:56.676 It sounds incredible. Why Why isn't it really a thing yet? 0:14:56.916 --> 0:14:59.636 Why does Why why aren't people doing it? Yeah, it 0:14:59.676 --> 0:15:04.516 goes back to economics. You can do it today, but 0:15:04.596 --> 0:15:08.556 today it's too expensive. And it's too expensive because today 0:15:08.596 --> 0:15:13.316 we only pack a million pieces of adigos on the 0:15:13.356 --> 0:15:16.836 civic and chip. It works. We've done dozens of administrations 0:15:16.836 --> 0:15:21.276 with again Netflix, Microsoft, University of Washington, with the Montro 0:15:21.356 --> 0:15:26.956 Jazz Festival, with the United Nations, with the Olympic Games. Right, 0:15:26.996 --> 0:15:30.996 so it works, but it is expensive, and that's why 0:15:31.516 --> 0:15:34.636 at Weiss we are pushing the technology further we're packing 0:15:34.676 --> 0:15:38.076 more and more pieces of DNA on the same citkinship. Again, 0:15:38.676 --> 0:15:40.876 the state of the art used to be one hundred 0:15:40.956 --> 0:15:45.196 pieces of DNA. The first Twist product was a million 0:15:45.236 --> 0:15:47.796 pieces of DNA. Right now we're working working on a 0:15:47.876 --> 0:15:50.236 chip that we have two hundred and fifty six millions. 0:15:50.316 --> 0:15:53.516 So okay, so you're packing more and more a DNA 0:15:53.916 --> 0:15:56.676 on a chip to make DNA storage cheaper. Right, that's 0:15:56.716 --> 0:16:00.396 the fundamental problem. You have to solve. How much cheaper 0:16:00.796 --> 0:16:02.996 have you made it so far? And how much cheaper 0:16:03.036 --> 0:16:05.076 does it have to get. We've already done a thousand 0:16:05.116 --> 0:16:11.076 times less and were we're in field of and those 0:16:11.156 --> 0:16:15.516 a thousand times cost reduction and have to add by 0:16:15.636 --> 0:16:19.596 packing more sequences. You do that by packing more pieces 0:16:19.636 --> 0:16:24.436 of DNA on the city Kin chip. And so it's weird. 0:16:24.556 --> 0:16:27.036 I mean, we're used to thinking about this kind of thing. 0:16:27.196 --> 0:16:29.876 I think because of Moore's law, right, because this thing 0:16:29.916 --> 0:16:34.516 has happened with computers for whatever it is, fifty years now. 0:16:34.876 --> 0:16:37.796 That exactly what you're talking about in DNA, right, every 0:16:37.836 --> 0:16:40.116 two years you get twice as many transistors on a 0:16:40.196 --> 0:16:43.916 chip or whatever. But it's not really a law. It 0:16:43.916 --> 0:16:47.476 didn't happen naturally. Right, It happened because like many, many, many, 0:16:47.556 --> 0:16:50.636 really really really smart people kept coming up with clever 0:16:51.236 --> 0:16:54.196 ways of getting more transistors on a chip. Right, it 0:16:54.316 --> 0:16:58.316 doesn't have to keep getting better, getting more efficient. So 0:16:58.716 --> 0:17:00.756 how do you do that? Like, is there some way 0:17:00.756 --> 0:17:03.636 without getting too technical, that we can talk about some 0:17:03.716 --> 0:17:07.156 of the problems you have to solve to keep doubling 0:17:07.196 --> 0:17:10.036 to get a thousand times cheaper. Yeah, it's it's a 0:17:10.156 --> 0:17:14.076 very it's a very difficult engineering problem. And I love 0:17:14.116 --> 0:17:17.156 that it's difficult because if it was easy, every idiots 0:17:17.196 --> 0:17:19.796 would be doing it. And so it is really really hard, 0:17:19.796 --> 0:17:22.156 and you have to be very good at sumer conductor, 0:17:22.236 --> 0:17:25.516 at silicon engineering, you have to be extremely good at 0:17:25.716 --> 0:17:30.876 electrical engineering, at mechanical engineering, and chemical engineering at computation. 0:17:31.996 --> 0:17:36.716 It just a What you have to do is build 0:17:36.796 --> 0:17:41.556 a team where everybody is the best at what they 0:17:41.596 --> 0:17:44.716 do in their own field and have those people be 0:17:45.116 --> 0:17:49.436 extremely great team players, and then you have to demand performance. 0:17:49.436 --> 0:17:52.676 So in some ways you have to run this lack 0:17:52.716 --> 0:17:55.476 of sports team. I always say at Twist, we're not 0:17:55.516 --> 0:17:58.236 a family. Right, in the family, you tolerate bad behavior. 0:17:58.676 --> 0:18:02.156 We out sports team. We hire the best athlete for 0:18:02.196 --> 0:18:06.996 each position to demand performance, and you demand that they 0:18:07.076 --> 0:18:10.236 work as a team and if you give them an 0:18:10.316 --> 0:18:15.036 amazing tough problem, they'll find a way. So you have 0:18:15.076 --> 0:18:18.516 this team, how do they actually solve the problem of 0:18:19.036 --> 0:18:23.396 you know, building denser chips to make DNA storage cheaper. Yeah, 0:18:23.436 --> 0:18:25.556 so first you have to design the Citicans ship where 0:18:25.596 --> 0:18:28.516 it's it's a design a computer that cost millions of 0:18:28.556 --> 0:18:31.756 dollars just to do design right, And then you press 0:18:31.796 --> 0:18:34.756 the button and you say, get me that chipmate. That's 0:18:34.796 --> 0:18:37.996 another set of millions of dollars. And then you get 0:18:37.996 --> 0:18:41.676 the chip in and you literally hook it up to 0:18:42.036 --> 0:18:45.436 a giant amount of set of flectionics and you literally 0:18:45.516 --> 0:18:49.156 boot the chip like you boot your computer, and you 0:18:49.196 --> 0:18:52.796 know the chip doesn't work. It's like, oh, now I 0:18:52.796 --> 0:18:55.476 have to go back either redesign it, which you know 0:18:55.516 --> 0:18:58.316 it's money and time that you want to do. Oh, 0:18:58.396 --> 0:19:02.116 you have to debug it. See what, See what happens. 0:19:02.156 --> 0:19:05.796 And when you finally get the chip to work, that's 0:19:05.836 --> 0:19:07.956 just a Citicans chip. Now you have to bring the 0:19:08.036 --> 0:19:11.076 ACGT on it. Okay, yeah, you have to. You have 0:19:11.116 --> 0:19:14.236 to build the DNA and that's very hard as well. 0:19:15.196 --> 0:19:18.356 And that's why we be one experiment and we have 0:19:18.436 --> 0:19:22.996 to do the the engineering principle of design, build tests. 0:19:23.036 --> 0:19:26.436 You design an expense, you build the DNA, you test it, 0:19:26.556 --> 0:19:28.476 you learn a little bit, you go back and you 0:19:28.516 --> 0:19:31.396 do it again and again, and every cycle of learning 0:19:32.076 --> 0:19:35.276 is time and money and again, if you have the 0:19:35.356 --> 0:19:39.436 right team, that cycle of learning will be faster than 0:19:39.476 --> 0:19:42.356 the competition, will be cheaper on a competition, and that's 0:19:42.356 --> 0:19:46.516 how we win. It is extremely, extremely difficult, and again 0:19:46.916 --> 0:19:50.516 thankfully it's difficult. That that means we have a shot 0:19:50.316 --> 0:19:55.316 at greatness. So yes, the good news is it's super 0:19:55.316 --> 0:19:57.636 hard and nobody knows how to do it. So the 0:19:57.796 --> 0:20:01.756 goal ultimately is to be able to store things in 0:20:01.836 --> 0:20:03.756 DNA for a price that's comparable to what you could 0:20:03.756 --> 0:20:05.836 put it on a hard drive for now, and in 0:20:05.956 --> 0:20:07.676 that universe it would be cheaper in the long run 0:20:07.676 --> 0:20:12.596 in the DNA. When do you think that'll happen? So 0:20:12.636 --> 0:20:14.476 I know the answer, and I get that question from 0:20:14.516 --> 0:20:17.916 all our investors all the time. Unfortunately I can't. I 0:20:17.956 --> 0:20:22.356 can't tell you, but it's it's it's very soon. And 0:20:22.436 --> 0:20:25.436 the chip we're working on now, that is the chip 0:20:25.956 --> 0:20:30.196 that we're going to go commercial with and so the 0:20:30.276 --> 0:20:33.116 chip is designed, the ship is build, and now we're 0:20:33.116 --> 0:20:36.556 in the debugging phase and when when that is finished, 0:20:37.156 --> 0:20:40.676 then we'll be able to launch commercially. And so does 0:20:40.676 --> 0:20:43.636 that mean in a year? Does that mean in five years? 0:20:45.236 --> 0:20:47.796 So if it's not done in five years, I'll definitely 0:20:47.876 --> 0:20:51.116 get a lot of love letters from our investors. So 0:20:51.156 --> 0:20:56.076 it's definitely a lot less than five years. In a minute, 0:20:56.076 --> 0:20:59.636 it's the lightning round, including Emily's advice for solving hard 0:20:59.636 --> 0:21:03.476 problems and what she actually does to solve hard problems. 0:21:10.316 --> 0:21:12.916 Now let's get back to the show. The last thing 0:21:13.316 --> 0:21:15.956 is a lightning round, a bunch of questions, but but 0:21:16.076 --> 0:21:19.396 we'll do them fast. What is one piece of advice 0:21:19.436 --> 0:21:24.996 you'd give to someone trying to solve a hard problem? 0:21:25.076 --> 0:21:31.316 If I first, you don't succeed, try again, Right, you 0:21:31.836 --> 0:21:34.796 have a choice. Right when you don't succeed, you can 0:21:34.916 --> 0:21:37.716 call mom, you can order a pizza, you can drink 0:21:37.756 --> 0:21:40.556 a beer. You try again. You have a favorite gene. 0:21:41.596 --> 0:21:44.556 I do not have a favorite gene. I love all 0:21:44.636 --> 0:21:49.916 the genes. They're like children, right, I guess you're their children. 0:21:49.956 --> 0:21:55.156 We're their children. As a scientist, As a geneticist, do 0:21:55.196 --> 0:21:58.236 you feel like you understand something about the world or 0:21:58.276 --> 0:22:02.316 about people that most people don't really understand. I don't 0:22:02.356 --> 0:22:07.236 think so. Yeah, I'm not very to shephilia as a person. 0:22:07.276 --> 0:22:13.116 I'll probably somewhere on on some spectrum. So I know, 0:22:13.236 --> 0:22:15.156 to make DNA and or to write, you know, to sell, 0:22:16.276 --> 0:22:19.836 to do fundraising. But those are probably the four things. 0:22:20.036 --> 0:22:22.996 Do you think you'll ever leave twist? You think they're 0:22:22.996 --> 0:22:24.676 all kind of time when you want to go do 0:22:24.756 --> 0:22:26.916 something else, I would be in the seat until I 0:22:26.996 --> 0:22:30.836 get fired by by the board. So this is probably 0:22:30.876 --> 0:22:34.556 my last job. I've read that you play the piano 0:22:34.676 --> 0:22:39.356 when you're thinking about work. Is there some something in 0:22:39.396 --> 0:22:42.956 particular you've been enjoying playing lately? A favorite piece these days? 0:22:44.556 --> 0:22:47.476 So I practice the piano every day. I don't know 0:22:47.516 --> 0:22:50.756 if I'm really playing it. Some people make coll it 0:22:51.076 --> 0:22:54.556 butchering or murdering the piano, but I totally enjoy it. 0:22:54.796 --> 0:22:56.436 What I love about the piano is that you know, 0:22:56.476 --> 0:22:59.276 the left hand is easy, the right hand is easy. 0:22:59.316 --> 0:23:02.916 But putting the two hands together, that's a total mind 0:23:03.676 --> 0:23:06.996 bending experience. And it's you have to use one hundred 0:23:07.076 --> 0:23:09.836 percent of your conscious mind. And when I find is 0:23:10.236 --> 0:23:13.276 if I have a hard problem at work, I can't 0:23:13.276 --> 0:23:14.876 figure that out, I go up to the piano. I'm 0:23:14.876 --> 0:23:17.596 one hundred percent. I'm using one hundredercent of my brain 0:23:17.996 --> 0:23:21.756 and somehow, in the background somewhere I think of a 0:23:21.836 --> 0:23:25.916 solution and that that is quite exciting. And yeah, all 0:23:25.996 --> 0:23:28.636 my tough problem. I never get them resolved sitting on 0:23:28.756 --> 0:23:31.196 by desk, routing on my computer. It's I get them 0:23:31.316 --> 0:23:37.036 resolved either playing piano or taking the dogs out for 0:23:37.236 --> 0:23:39.996 a walk. So maybe that's your real advice for how 0:23:39.996 --> 0:23:42.396 to solve a hard problem is don't think about the 0:23:42.436 --> 0:23:45.956 problem or do something else. Yeah, take your prim out 0:23:45.996 --> 0:23:53.436 of the building, take a hike. Emily Laprus is the 0:23:53.516 --> 0:23:59.676 co founder and CEO of Twist Bioscience. Today's show was 0:23:59.716 --> 0:24:03.476 produced by Edith Russlo, edited by Robert Smith, and engineered 0:24:03.476 --> 0:24:07.036 by Amanda K. Wong. You can reach us at problem 0:24:07.196 --> 0:24:10.676 at pushkin dot fm, or you can find me on 0:24:10.676 --> 0:24:14.636 Twitter at Jacob Goldstein. I'm Jacob Goldstein and I'll be 0:24:14.676 --> 0:24:23.356 back next week with another episode of What's Your Problem.