1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You From house Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Christen 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And today on the show we're talking 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: to author Jessica Lamb Shapiro, who recently published the book 5 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: Promised Land, not to be confused with Promised Land. Uh. 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: It's her journey through America's self help culture, and it's 7 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: part memoir, part history, part examination of the self help industry, 8 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: and a really fun read. Yeah. She is clearly incredibly 9 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: on point. She knows the ins and outs of the 10 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: self helped genre, and part of that is because of 11 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: her own family history. Yeah, her father is a psychologist 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: and he plays a prominent role in this story and 13 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: in the memoir part I should say of Promised Land 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: and growing up, he was always making self help products 15 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: or writing self help books. He never became like a 16 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: chicken soup for the soul style like mega self help author. 17 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: But he, you know, as you'll learn in the book, 18 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: was continually and still kind of is actively engaged in 19 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: the self help industry. Yeah. And uh, we learned so 20 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: much from her book and from talking to her. For instance, 21 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: the history of self help. I didn't realize stretches all 22 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: the way back to ancient Egypt and the Greek philosophers. 23 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: It moves through history into the Middle Ages and Renaissance 24 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: with books that you know, they talk about behavior of 25 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: princes and kings that you should model or not model. 26 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: Moving all the way into the nineteenth century in the 27 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: Victorian period where quote unquote self help really really takes 28 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: off advice on everything from marriage, to having babies to 29 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: keeping a house. Yeah, and it's in that Victorian era, 30 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: as Jessica will talk about more in our interview, that's 31 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: when you see more self help targeted specifically towards women. 32 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: What jumped out to me in the history of elf help, 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: which she lays out so well, is how in its 34 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: earliest eras it was largely directed towards men, the betterment 35 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: of men in order for them to socially climb through 36 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: the ranks. Which makes sense because back then women really 37 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: didn't have much There were no there were no ranks. 38 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: What what what would they climb? And I gotta say I 39 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: first heard Jessica Lamb Shapire talking about this book in 40 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: an interview with Harry Gross on Fresh Air, and I 41 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 1: was driving home actually from the house. Stuff works offices, 42 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: and it was such a fantastic interview, and it was 43 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: a topic that we've been wanting to talk about on 44 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,399 Speaker 1: the podcast for a while, self help. And so as 45 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: soon as the interview finished, I googled her and looked 46 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: up her publicist name and hope that she would want 47 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: to come on the show, and she did, hooray. So 48 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: we hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Jessica Lamb Shapiro, 49 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: author of Promised Land, My Journey through America's self help culture. So, 50 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: first of all, Jessica, thanks so much for coming on 51 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: stuff Mom never told you. So for listeners who might 52 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: not be familiar with Promised Land, could you talk a 53 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: little bit about your inspiration for writing this book and 54 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: how that was connected to your father's self help career. 55 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it sort of happened by coincidence because my dad, 56 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: who had written so many self help books, had never 57 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: reached a certain level of fame of someone like Dr 58 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: Phil or like the Chicken Sup for the Soul series, um, 59 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: And so he heard about this conference for self help 60 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: authors that was taught by the guy who co wrote 61 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: Chicken Sup for the Soul, and I guess he kind 62 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: of fell into this uh seductive idea that there might 63 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: be some secret that he didn't know. UM. So he 64 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: told me he was going to this conference, and I 65 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: just want because I thought it would be kind of fun. 66 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: And I didn't really have anything to do. UM. I 67 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: had just graduated from grad school and I was in 68 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: my early twenties and I was really adrift. UM. And 69 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I was secretly so chank them 70 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: self help for myself. UM. But I went with him, 71 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: and I guess what I saw there surprised me so 72 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: much that kind of piqued this curiosity. And then I 73 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: started looking into self help and the history of self help. 74 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: And then I got really interested because I I kind 75 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: of started to realize what an integral part of American 76 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: society it is and how long it has been that way. 77 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: And I've always been a real American history buff and 78 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: I'm just really interested in, like what the way that 79 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: America defines itself. Um, And it seemed to be really 80 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: wrapped up in that. So I guess that's what kind 81 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: of fascinated me. Well, early self help from these stoic 82 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: philosophers all the way up to Horatio Alger seems typically 83 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: to be directed just at male readers. When did female 84 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: readers start getting in on the self help game? I mean, 85 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,239 Speaker 1: that's a really great question and sort of fascinating because 86 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: I mean, for thousands of years, self help was written 87 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: by men for men, and I think a lot of 88 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: that was because women and weren't They didn't know how 89 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: to read, and they didn't know how to write, and 90 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: they weren't given that kind of education. Um. And so 91 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: part of it is congruent with women, you know, getting 92 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,239 Speaker 1: getting their own education. Um. But basically it was after 93 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 1: the Industrial Revolution, um that you first started to see 94 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: books written for women, not always buy women, and they 95 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: were mostly on house swiffery, being a mother, raising children, 96 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: how to keep servants in line. And they were really 97 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: written for upper class women because they were always you know, 98 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: about things that you would need money to do, like 99 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: have servants or have a house that you would have 100 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: to manage. Um. And those were the women who also 101 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: knew how to read and write, so you know, it 102 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: all kind of made sense. Um. And then later in 103 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century you saw some women starting to write 104 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: these books for women and they started to include recipes. 105 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: These early books are really interesting because they weren't on 106 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: just one topic. They would be on basically every topic 107 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: that could possibly relate to you as a woman. So 108 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: you would buy one book and it would have, uh, 109 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: you know, how to clean your house, how to manage 110 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: your servants, how to raise your kids, how to be 111 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: a good wife, you know, social niceties like what works 112 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: to serve you know, how to play, how to lay 113 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: at the table, um, and also recipes, and I mean 114 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: they were just like these these codgepodge books of like 115 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: everything having to do with almost how to be a woman. 116 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: And then later on they started to get down to 117 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: more specific topics. Um, in the early nineteen hundreds, there 118 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: were there were diet books for men and for the 119 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: general public in the nineteen hundreds, but it was in 120 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: the twentieth century that you started to see diet books 121 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: for women specifically um written by women, calorie counting, that 122 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: sort of thing. And so it was really like, I 123 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: would say the early nineteen hundreds that you started to 124 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: see a lot of women's self help authors than even 125 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: more books directed specifically at women and then broken down 126 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,679 Speaker 1: by topic, as opposed to one big book that covered 127 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: you know, every topic. So it seems like even today's 128 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: self help gurus tend to be men, like Mark Victor Hansen, 129 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: who started the whole Chicken Soup for the Soul Empire. 130 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: And I was wondering why you think this is, I mean, 131 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: does it have to do perhaps with masculine, gendered constructs 132 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: of expertise? Are we more willing to take advice from men? 133 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: I mean, definitely there was a tonal difference. Um, men 134 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: talked to women, and women talked to women in a 135 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: different way than men talked to men, and and generally 136 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: there I did not find such a thing as a 137 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: self help book by a woman for men, um, you know, 138 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: until much much later on in the twentieth century, and 139 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: even then it's still pretty rare. So yeah, I guess 140 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: I would characterize it as more you know, feminine, more girly. 141 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: I'm not even sure exactly what made it that way, 142 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: but it was sort of more conversational, and it was 143 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: very conspiratorial, you know, like here we are just us girls. 144 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to tell you some secrets. But 145 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: you know, it was a very different tone from the 146 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: books that were directed towards men. So The Rules was 147 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: one of your least favorite self help titles, and definitely 148 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say one of ours too. 149 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about why you just 150 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: found it so particularly terrible? Well, you know, it's funny. 151 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: I think, like you, it made a big impression on 152 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: me because I was in high school when it came out, 153 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: and I think I was just very conscious. I was 154 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: starting to become very conscious of being a woman and 155 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: being around guys and wanting them to like me. So 156 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: I think it like hit a particular like note in 157 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: my psyche at that time. Um. But I also, you know, 158 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: I was kind of a burgeoning feminist and I knew 159 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: that some of the stuff was not a good idea, 160 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: and I didn't really take a look at it until 161 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, years later, when I when I was working 162 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: on this book. Um, I guess you know, a lot 163 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: of what it was difficult for me about the book 164 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: is that most self help books talk about self control, 165 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: and I think, to a certain extent, self control is important. 166 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: It's important to be a functional human being and to 167 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: put your clothes on and go get a job, and 168 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: you know all that stuff. You can't just do whatever 169 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: you want all the time. Um, but this was like 170 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: anything you want to do, you can't do it. If 171 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: you want to call a guy, you can't. If you 172 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: want to seem interested, you can't. So it was all 173 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: about suppressing all of your desires and all of your 174 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: impulses and pretending to be someone you're not, which is 175 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: basically a completely indifferent person um. You know, and to me, 176 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: like socially, it's troubling to say that, you know, men 177 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: can only like a certain kind of woman or a 178 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: perfect woman. You know, on a personal level, it's troubling 179 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: because I don't really want to do that, and so 180 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: it's troubling to me if that's like actually successful and 181 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: that's the only way that you can have a relationship 182 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: is to put on a facade, and then, you know, 183 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: I really question the longevity of that, because I mean, 184 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: the idea that you're going to pretend for your whole 185 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: life to be a certain kind of person is exhausting. 186 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: Or you know, the book is mostly about getting married, 187 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: and the idea that you're gonna pretend to be one way, 188 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: get married and then reveal your true self is also 189 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: really seems like a terrible idea. So to me, like 190 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: there's a logical problem with it. Now, speaking of the rules, 191 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: it does seem like dating and relationships. Self help is 192 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: particularly popular among women. And based on you know, you're 193 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: reading of the rules and other research that you've done, 194 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: do you think that there is any value to it 195 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: for actually starting and maintaining healthy relationships? Um? You know, 196 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: I think it can depending on what the promises. You know, 197 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: anything that asks you how to get or control another person, 198 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: it seems to me like a bad idea and kind 199 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: of destined to fail. Or if it does work, it's 200 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: going to require some stuff that you probably don't really 201 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: want to do. Um. But on the end hand, of 202 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 1: book that just asks you to be thoughtful about your desires, 203 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: your expectations, UM, what you want in a relationship, you know, 204 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: and that's kind of having you more work on yourself 205 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: and your communication. That to me seems like, you know, 206 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: it would be useful for relationship, because communication is really 207 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: important to a relationship. According to two thousand eight data 208 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 1: from Nielsen Book Scan, women bought seventy four per cent 209 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: of self help titles on family and relationships. Why do 210 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: you think women are more apt to seek it out 211 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: compared to men? I mean, it definitely seems to be 212 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: split by gender, and that when men by self help 213 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: books they self help books about business and success. And 214 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: when women by self help books, they buy books about others, 215 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: which is to say, parenting, families, relationships, that sort of thing, 216 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: you know. And traditionally women have been more concerned with 217 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: their relationships with others than men for many, many, many 218 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: really reasons that might have to do with biology and 219 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: evolution and social structure. Um. But I think that there 220 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: are a lot of theories about about this, um and, 221 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: and none of them have any real statistical research done 222 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: to them, but I do think they're interesting. UM. One 223 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: is that women are just more likely to ask for 224 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: help because they're more community oriented. So it's almost the 225 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: very same thing. Like women want to buy books about 226 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: relationships and families, is the same reason that they will 227 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: seek out help from other people or from books. I 228 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: think that they're also less embarrassed to ask for help, 229 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: you know. I think that socially men it's like that 230 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: old joke about you know, men not wanting to ask 231 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: for directions. I think there's something, you know, that kind 232 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: of trickles down from that, where like men are embarrassed 233 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: to ask for help and women are less embarrassed to 234 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: ask for help. I think that you know, women are 235 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: more isolated sometimes than men, especially if they're at home 236 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: with children, um and so it might be more necessary 237 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: for them to go to a book. They might not have, 238 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:44,599 Speaker 1: you know, a family or a community to turn to, 239 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,079 Speaker 1: or they just might feel more isolated because of it. 240 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: Um So. So those are some of the theories that 241 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: are put forth about why this might be um But 242 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: again they're just kind of psychological theories based on, you know, 243 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: basic ideas about women's psychology versus men's psychology. One thing 244 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,839 Speaker 1: you talk about in towards the end of the book 245 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: is how the future of self help is largely tech driven. 246 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: You mentioned things like apps that can help you maybe 247 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: if you are, you know, experiencing anxiety, things like that. 248 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: So do you think though, that social media has a 249 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: similar self help like quality in the same sense, because 250 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: when I was reading about this, it reminded me of 251 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: seeing communities on Tumbler where you have a lot of 252 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: connection going on, a lot of advice requests and advice giving, 253 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: and this sense of community that does seem to be 254 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: serving some kind of self soothing and self help function. Yeah, 255 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I think in a sense it is that 256 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 1: same thing. You know. I'm not familiar. I mean, I've 257 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: heard of tumbler, but I have not spent any time 258 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: on it. UM. But I can speak from my experience 259 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: with Facebook. UM. So many people put inspirational quotes upon 260 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: their board or whatever you call it. So during the day, 261 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: as I'm procrastinating into think Facebook, I'm seeing all of 262 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: these inspirational quotes. UM. People very often start posts with 263 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: the sort of like hello, hive mind. You know, does 264 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: anybody know how I can do this? Or can somebody 265 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: give me advice on this? Um? And and it is 266 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: this way of you know, kind of reaching out to 267 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: community and getting help without even leaving your house. So, 268 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: you know, I think in a sense, UM, I'm not 269 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: sure that it's any less isolating because you know, even 270 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: a lot of the people that I communicate without Facebook, 271 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: I've never actually met them in person. I just sort 272 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: of know of them or they're like friends of friends. UM. 273 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: So it's still kind of getting advice from strangers in 274 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: some sense. UM. But yeah, I think that there's definitely 275 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: a similarity. So one thing that came to mind when 276 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: reading about the evolution of these victorians self help books 277 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: and self help more geared towards women, is that it 278 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: sounds so much like a lot of the themes and 279 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: topics covered and women's magazines today. You're absolutely right, I 280 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: mean it's so true. There are so many how to 281 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: do X articles in women's magazines, you know, and I 282 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: think that we still turn to those things because we 283 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: want to know, you know, how to be women and 284 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: how to achieve what we want. Um. And yeah, that 285 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: is a really interesting parallel. In fact, one of the 286 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: bigger self help books was actually written by Harper's Bizarre 287 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: um about a hundred years ago, and it was one 288 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: of those uh, you know, compilations of how to be 289 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: a housewife, you know, do your servants raise your kids? Um? So, 290 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: so there's definitely a link between those women's magazines and 291 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: those books. And this might be a sensitive question, but 292 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: as you have grown older, is there a type of 293 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: self help that you wish your mother in particular were 294 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: around to bestow on you? Absolutely, I mean I think 295 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: the whole idea of getting advice is so interesting because 296 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: it's sort of like the book versus family. You know, 297 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: there's this real there's a way in which you can 298 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: get advice from your family or community. Um. And then 299 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: there's a way in which you get advice from strangers 300 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: and sometimes they see diametrically opposed to me. And I 301 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: think in a weird way, the mother is kind of 302 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: the symbol for advice. I mean from what I hear, 303 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: a lot of the time it's unwanted advice. You know, 304 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: mothers are calling people and telling them what to do. Um. 305 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: But I think I really have missed that in a sense. 306 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: You know, I would love for somebody to call and 307 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: tell me what to do. Um. You know that I 308 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: could trust and you know, in a sense like a 309 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: mother doesn't even have to give advice, but they provide 310 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: a model. So just by seeing them do things a 311 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: certain way and seeing their values, UM, I think that 312 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: can really model for a daughter. UM ways that you know, 313 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: they can behave in choices that they can make. And 314 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: I certainly feel like, you know, there've been pivotal moments 315 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: in my life when I had to make decisions and 316 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: you know, some of them I felt were really gender 317 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: specific and not necessarily something I would even want to 318 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: talk to my dad about. UM. And yeah, those were 319 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: times where I really, you know, missed this idea of 320 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: having a mother that I could sure to for advice. Jessica, 321 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for taking the time to talk with 322 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: us today about self help and especially these more gendered 323 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: aspects of self help. Is there anything that we haven't 324 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 1: asked you about specifically that you would like to add? Yeah. 325 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, when I started the book, I 326 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: was very very cynical. UM. I was pretty anti self help. 327 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: I thought it was really silly. I thought a lot 328 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: of the titles were kind of you know, idiotic, UM. 329 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: And when I really started thinking about what it provides 330 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: and what it can provide, and I sort of set 331 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: aside the worst examples and sort of thought about it 332 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: more generally and more self help in theory, I felt 333 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: myself becoming really sympathetic to just the idea of self 334 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: help and the desire for self help UM. And I 335 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: could really identify it, identify with it in the way 336 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: that you know I was. I was just mentioning with 337 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: my mother, because when you have a whole in your family, 338 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: um or in your life, and you don't have someone 339 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: to ask for advice, it's really nice that there's this, 340 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, you can go to a bookstore and you 341 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: can read a book and you can get information. You know, 342 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: I think that information is so valuable. UM. I had 343 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: an experience where, you know, I was actually worried about 344 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: dying at the same age my mother had died, and 345 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: it was sort of a superstitious worry, UM, but I 346 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: it also kind of scared me. And when I read 347 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: this book UM about losing a mother, I read that 348 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: it was a really really common fear and just that 349 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: was information that I felt really kind of freed me 350 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: up to not be afraid anymore. And so in that sense, 351 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: I think that information can be so valuable and it 352 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: doesn't matter where it is coming from, um, you know. 353 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: And and also self help books can make you feel 354 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: better because I think we turned to them when we're 355 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: feeling isolated, when we're feeling helpless and hopeless, and they 356 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: can be very reassuring and they can give us a 357 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 1: sense of hope. But you know, I guess where I 358 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: worry about self help books is that real change is 359 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: much more difficult, and it takes more effort and more 360 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 1: investment on the part of the individual and the reader 361 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: that I think self help books really ask us for. Um. 362 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: And you know, I found in my research some statistics 363 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,479 Speaker 1: that said people sometimes buy self help books and they 364 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: don't read them, or they buy them, and they read 365 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: only the first twenty pages. And I think if you're 366 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: not willing to put in you know, sort of sustained 367 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: effort over time, you can't really expect any real change 368 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: to occur. And so you're probably just going to be 369 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: left with a feeling of hope or you know, feeling better, 370 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: which I think is really valuable, but maybe is not 371 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: long term going to solve anything. And where can listeners 372 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: go to find out more about you and about Promised 373 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: Land and other things that you might be working on. Yeah, 374 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: I have a website, UM, which is Jessica Lamb Shapiro 375 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: dot com. UM J E S. S I C A 376 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: L A M B S J P I R Oh, 377 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: I'm sorry I had such a long name, UM. And 378 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: I know it's available on Amazon and it's at Barnes 379 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: and Noble and it's an independent bookstore, so it's definitely 380 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,360 Speaker 1: you can find it online. And there's all a book 381 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: called Promised Land with a D and it's not that book. 382 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: It's Promised Land Without a D. Well. Thank you so 383 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: much again to Jessica Lamb Shapira for talking to us 384 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: in this very enlightening interview about her self help journey 385 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: and kind of self help culture at large, and you know, 386 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 1: it's a it's an incredibly popular and widespread genre, and 387 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: it makes me kind of wonder. You know, Kristen, have 388 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,199 Speaker 1: you ever partaken I don't know that I've partaken in 389 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: any self help books, any any books that would be 390 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: classified in the self help area of a bookstore. But 391 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 1: I mean, thinking though about how I consume women's magazines, 392 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: I feel like, in a way I am still participatory 393 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: in that, whether it's self help in terms of oh, well, 394 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: you know, you could consider maybe Sheryl Sandberg's Lenon to 395 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: be a self help book of sorts, or even just 396 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: all of the tips and lifestyle advice that's often doled 397 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: out to women and Marie Claire and Glamour, etcetera, etcetera. Yeah, sure, 398 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: I I agree. I have never like sought out self 399 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: help books per se. But I have said this before 400 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: on the podcast, and I will say it again. I 401 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,959 Speaker 1: freaking love oh Magazine and all of the like pseudo scientific, 402 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 1: spiritual advice in that magazine. I just love it. I 403 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: can't get enough, Like I don't. I don't know if 404 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: Martha Beck is still writing for that magazine anymore or not. 405 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 1: But like herst, I would like flip straight to her 406 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: column every month. Did I mean does it soothing for 407 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: you that kind of advice, especially the pseudo spiritual stuff 408 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: that you mentioned. Yeah, I found it very reassuring and 409 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: and very like, Okay, you're not crazy. Really, anything that 410 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: tells me, hey, you're not crazy. People go through rough 411 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 1: patches in life. I appreciate that. Maybe I should just 412 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: have that sewn onto a pillow or cross stitchet somewhere 413 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: and just hang it up. I know what I'm getting 414 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: you both Christmas, Well, everybody, definitely go check out Promised Land, 415 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: My Journey through America's self help culture by Jessica Lamb Shapiro. 416 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: It is highly engaging, entertaining, an educational book, so we 417 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: give it to sminty thumbs way way up and also again, 418 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: huge thanks to Jessica Lamme Shapire for taking a time 419 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: to talk to us. And if you have any thoughts 420 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: on self help, we'd love to hear from you. Are 421 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: there any titles that have helped you out or that 422 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: you kind of, like Jessica negatively, really reacted to the rules. 423 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: Have there been any self help books that have really 424 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,959 Speaker 1: turned you off? Let us know. Mom Stuff discovery dot 425 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: com is where you can email us, or you can 426 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: hit us up on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, or 427 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: send us a message on Facebook, and we have a 428 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: couple of Facebook messages to share with you when we 429 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break and now back 430 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: to the show. So I got a message here from 431 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: Meredith about our episode on Susan B. Anthony, and she writes, 432 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: I know you have the most respect for Susan B. Anthony, 433 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: and I also share your disgust that we don't know 434 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: more about the other women you mentioned, especially women of color. 435 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: I also loved how you pointed out that the story 436 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: in American history highlights the intersection of race and gender. 437 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: I did want to write and let you know this 438 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: intersection is still going on. Of course, we both saw 439 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: it during the primary campaign against Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, 440 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: both vilified for different reasons. But also the church that 441 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: I grew up in, the Mormon Church, did not extend 442 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: priesthood to blackmails until ninety During this time, there was 443 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: a push in wider America for the Equal Rights Amendment, 444 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: which the Mormon Church was distinctly against. There were some 445 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: powerful women excommunicated from the Mormon Church for their support 446 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: of the e r RA. However, to my knowledge, no 447 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: black man has ever been excommunicated for pushing for black priesthood, 448 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: and women still don't have much more say in the 449 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: Mormon Church than they did in the early nineteen eighties. 450 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: Because of this, I can sympathize with Susan B. Anthony's 451 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: inability to support the fifteenth Amendment since it did not 452 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: achieve full equality. It's always hard to push for something 453 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 1: and then be left out because you're a woman. I 454 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: don't think that I could ever be as single minded 455 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: as Susan Anthony, but I'm glad people like her still 456 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: exist in the Mormon Church, which I have left. The 457 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: fight is on in Kate Kelly, who was pushing hard 458 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: for female ordination. I really love your podcast and thanks 459 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: so much, so thanks Meredith for that insight into the 460 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: Mormon Church. And I have a message here from Kendall 461 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: talking about our Engagement Ring episode Uh. She says, a 462 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: couple of years ago, I decided I was going to 463 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: propose to my now husband, and leap day was approaching, 464 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: so I thought that would be the perfect day. I 465 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: went shopping and agonized over which banded by him and 466 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: finally settled on one, a simple sterling silver band. I 467 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: carried that thing around with me for a few weeks 468 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: and planned a special night for leap Day. The weekend 469 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: before a leap Day, we were jointly filing taxes for 470 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 1: the first time, and our accountant playfully told us right 471 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: before we filed that this would be it and in 472 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: the eyes of the government, we would be officially married. 473 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: And are we sure? I'm not sure how true this is, 474 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: but it is what he told us. In a moment 475 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: of panic, I took the ring out of my bag 476 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: and proposed so we would have at least five minutes 477 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: of being engaged before the I R S considered us married. 478 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: He was so surprised. It was pretty great. I wore 479 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: a simple sterling band, and last year for my birthday, 480 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: he took me shopping for a ring because we do 481 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: everything out of order, so why not buy an engagement 482 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: ring after you're already married. I love the podcast and 483 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: can't wait to get through more of your great stuff. 484 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: So thank you, Kendall. That's a great story, and congratulations, 485 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff 486 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com is where you can send your 487 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: emails and four links to all of our other social 488 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: media presences as well as all of our podcast videos 489 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: and blogs. You should head on over to our website 490 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 1: It's Stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more 491 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Does it How 492 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com