Speaker 1: Pushkin. A month ago at the Grammys, Alicia Keys gave
Speaker 1: a beautiful speech while accepting the Global Impact Award. Part
Speaker 1: of her speech was dedicated to the women producers who
Speaker 1: power the industry, women like Patrice Russian, Missy Elliott, Linda Perry,
Speaker 1: and others. This was top of mind for me when
Speaker 1: I sat down with Esperanza's faulding at the Blue Milk
Speaker 1: Club in New York, where she was in the middle
Speaker 1: of a residency, not only because she just produced a
Speaker 1: gorgeous new collaborative album by the unheralded Brazilian genius Milton Ostumento.
Speaker 1: Na'turally called Milton and Esperanza, but she's self produced just
Speaker 1: about all of her own projects from the very beginning.
Speaker 1: Esperanza and I talk about why she's been producing herself
Speaker 1: from the jump in this episode, what it's been like
Speaker 1: working so closely with master mentors like Milton Nostrumento, but
Speaker 1: also Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock, and Espernza tells me
Speaker 1: what she views as the rocky begins and in her career.
Speaker 1: This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. If you'd
Speaker 1: like to watch the video version of today's episode, visit
Speaker 1: our YouTube page, YouTube dot com slash Broken Record podcast.
Speaker 1: Here's my conversation with Esperanza Spaulding.
Speaker 2: He's just such a fan girl for He's not even
Speaker 2: gonna he's not gonna own it, like he's cool, he's cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's probably playing it cool.
Speaker 2: I think so because he knows they're gonna roast him
Speaker 2: about it all the time.
Speaker 1: That's so funny. Cool. Yeah. No, but I'm happy. Uh,
Speaker 1: I'm happy this work out to do too though, because yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm like, uh. As soon as the album got announced,
Speaker 1: I was like, you gotta be kidding me. This is
Speaker 1: the most amazing thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 2: That's what I also felt, this is the most crazy
Speaker 2: thing that I've ever heard. When when his son asked
Speaker 2: me to produce it, So yeah, is that.
Speaker 1: The origin of the visit. So it's going to be
Speaker 1: more you producing a Milton.
Speaker 2: Well when the in the same moment that his son
Speaker 2: was like, oh you should produce this record, he said
Speaker 2: it should be Milton and Esperanza. He kind of he
Speaker 2: framed it as like, oh, it'll be a duo project.
Speaker 2: You know, you and him should do this project together
Speaker 2: and you produce it. And I mean I when you
Speaker 2: revere somebody's work that much, it can almost it felt
Speaker 2: hard to almost like insert myself into the like pallette
Speaker 2: of sounds. You know, maybe I felt an initial temptation
Speaker 2: as a producer. It's just kind of like I just
Speaker 2: want to bring stuff together and just you know, bask
Speaker 2: in the glory of your songs, in your sound. He
Speaker 2: Milton and his son were like, no, no, you know,
Speaker 2: we go do it together. It's gotta be it's gotta
Speaker 2: be your stuff too. It's got to be what you
Speaker 2: want and that so that that actually made it scarier,
Speaker 2: I think, because ooh, it's kind of like, hmm, can
Speaker 2: you it's almost like a challenge to the to the
Speaker 2: mentee or the younger person, like can you stand by
Speaker 2: what you've developed at this point in your musical life,
Speaker 2: you know, and consider it a contribution to the same
Speaker 2: global cannon of music as your you know, mentor.
Speaker 3: And because that's that felt like the that feels.
Speaker 2: Like it's always the invitation with every next generation, like
Speaker 2: you can't just keep you know, revering and bowing to
Speaker 2: and like, oh, you know, holding on this like silver
Speaker 2: holy platter.
Speaker 3: I don't know, the works are the ones.
Speaker 2: Before you like you have to sit in and live
Speaker 2: in and find out about what you've made inspired by them.
Speaker 1: You know, it was initially just maybe so to be
Speaker 1: just you producing a Milton record, but then it's sort
Speaker 1: of no, it.
Speaker 2: Was he always his son always framed it as you
Speaker 2: produced a record, and it's going to be you and him.
Speaker 3: I just found that scary, you know.
Speaker 2: As a conceit of like, oh, it's going to be
Speaker 2: both of our music or both of our kind of
Speaker 2: you know, esthetic voice or presence on the album. I
Speaker 2: felt intimidating as a conceit as a producer, and also
Speaker 2: ass like a person who's so inspired by him and
Speaker 2: feel so affected by his body at work, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you collaborated also very closely with Wayne
Speaker 1: Shorter with the albums dedicated to Did It Feel? I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess and are you are you just not used
Speaker 1: to are you not yet used to working so closely
Speaker 1: alongside your your hero or is it just never Is
Speaker 1: that something you just never grow accustomed to when you
Speaker 1: revere people When.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, when you put it like that, it
Speaker 2: sounds like there's just this long line of people a
Speaker 2: on the level of Wayne and Milton that like you
Speaker 2: could go, you know, like, oh, and the next.
Speaker 3: You'll go work with. To me, those two people are
Speaker 3: like my number one and number two.
Speaker 2: It's not in any hierarchy of order, but really in
Speaker 2: the uh in the history of music that's affected me
Speaker 2: that I've loved most deeply and studied the deepest. Wayne
Speaker 2: and Milton are it, you know, So this weird kind
Speaker 2: of like timing, I guess of working so closely with
Speaker 2: Wayne for a decade, approximately a decade on this opera project,
Speaker 2: and then in the year that Wayne passes this project
Speaker 2: with Milton coming up that I don't know what to
Speaker 2: say about that, even I think that's the first time
Speaker 2: I maybe said that sequence of events out loud.
Speaker 3: And I don't know what to do with that.
Speaker 2: I don't even know how to process that, because you know,
Speaker 2: I know these humans. You know, they are people that
Speaker 2: I love and revere as as folks. You know, people
Speaker 2: that I know that I talk to and call and know.
Speaker 2: And also they are the two of the profoundest musicians
Speaker 2: to ever walk the earth, just period, and and the like,
Speaker 2: the circumstances that conspired for me to even know them
Speaker 2: and to even meet them connect with them, and then
Speaker 2: get through. These projects are just ridiculous, like it's it's unbelievable.
Speaker 2: So all that to say, no, I'm not accustomed to
Speaker 2: working with people like Wayne Shorter and Milton because there
Speaker 2: aren't people like Wayne Shorter and Milkon. They are both
Speaker 2: so singular, and yeah, I getting to know both of
Speaker 2: them in the different ways and the different journeys that
Speaker 2: brought me to both of them have have just been
Speaker 2: miracles of my life, you know what I meant. And
Speaker 2: when the opportunities opened, or the invitations really i'll say,
Speaker 2: came for me to work with them, I just said yes,
Speaker 2: what not.
Speaker 3: Really asking like am I am I ready for this?
Speaker 3: Am I equipped to do this?
Speaker 2: I said yes? Because I love them? You know, how
Speaker 2: could you say no? And that's what I can say
Speaker 2: about that. So yeah, also with also, I don't want
Speaker 2: to like conflate the two of them because working with
Speaker 2: them with their own very distinct journeys and projects and pretexts.
Speaker 2: But it's really something. So it's like a.
Speaker 3: Perpetual kind of.
Speaker 2: Sticks boob like dual state of existence where you're like, okay,
Speaker 2: this this person in front of me, we got.
Speaker 3: This work to do. We're just trying to figure out
Speaker 3: the key for this song or like that, you know, whatever.
Speaker 2: Is the detail in front of you, and then the
Speaker 2: other part of you is like, oh my god, this
Speaker 2: is Milton. Not to mental, you know, just trying to
Speaker 2: actually stay present and not swoon and like faint at
Speaker 2: the immensity of your hero sitting in the room with you.
Speaker 1: You know, so I imagine the like focusing on the
Speaker 1: details and just the task at hand is definitely the
Speaker 1: way to just get your mind out of the fawning
Speaker 1: and the yes.
Speaker 3: One step at the time.
Speaker 2: And also, I mean, you know, since we're talking about
Speaker 2: the record with Milton, Milton is a very kind and
Speaker 2: generous person. You know, he makes it easy for you
Speaker 2: to be around him, like if he likes you, if
Speaker 2: he's messing with you. He makes it easy for you
Speaker 2: to just be in space. You know, he's telling stories.
Speaker 2: He's he's telling them like something will happen with the
Speaker 2: song or in the room that reminds him of a story,
Speaker 2: and then he'll tell you a story and make sure
Speaker 2: you understand, you know, the punchline. And so felt it
Speaker 2: felt very like you know, familial to be in the
Speaker 2: space and create and and the we had work to
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean. Like, he's a person
Speaker 2: who is very specific about what he's put into his
Speaker 2: songs and why, you know, down to like the voicing
Speaker 2: of a chord. And you know, here I was saying like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna, you know, re harmonize some things, like do
Speaker 2: these little arrangements and this and that, and.
Speaker 3: He was cool a lot of the stuff that I propose,
Speaker 3: and he.
Speaker 2: Would get so specifical like oh no, wait, wait, wait, no,
Speaker 2: that chord has to be that those notes, because it
Speaker 2: really felt like there's like a poetry to how he puts.
Speaker 3: The songs together.
Speaker 2: And because I'm not the poet, I don't know why
Speaker 2: he put that chord there instead of one that maybe
Speaker 2: sounds similar, but he does. And so it was it
Speaker 2: was deep to learn about that specificity of his craft
Speaker 2: that he's like, no, this, this chord has to be
Speaker 2: right because it's doing something, you know, in the logic
Speaker 2: of the whole thing. And that was like a great
Speaker 2: you know lesson too of that that like kind of
Speaker 2: standing up for the specifics and then also being flexible
Speaker 2: to the new voice of somebody else who's hearing something
Speaker 2: new with what you.
Speaker 1: Made there is I mean it's it's fascinating to hear
Speaker 1: that there's these certain details that he feels and need
Speaker 1: to be there because he has such a I don't
Speaker 1: even know how to I wouldn't know how to describe
Speaker 1: his music other than that, you know, and there is
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just because they collaborated and I conflate them
Speaker 1: in my mind, but Wayne and Milton both have this
Speaker 1: to me ineffable quality to the music that's just so
Speaker 1: beautiful and so you know, just to hear that you're
Speaker 1: there and there are these sort of key Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: these things that are key to him and key to
Speaker 1: what he does. I mean, do you feel like you
Speaker 1: understand those things better now?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: Boy?
Speaker 3: What I can? I I don't know if it's understand but.
Speaker 2: I maybe feel the his archetype as a creator more
Speaker 2: as a poet than before. I mean, I remember asking
Speaker 2: him once about his songwriting process. I think I was
Speaker 2: swooning over some lyrics and it's like you know how, but.
Speaker 3: Like how did you do that?
Speaker 2: It was some image in a lyric, like did you
Speaker 2: did you see that image first and then write it?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: How how did you you know? What?
Speaker 1: Was?
Speaker 3: What was that process? I think I was asking more
Speaker 3: about like what was the creative process?
Speaker 2: You know, did you sketch it? Was it somebody else's
Speaker 2: idea or a story you had in mind, or you know,
Speaker 2: like how did you craft it? And he just said,
Speaker 2: I'm a poet, you know, that's that's what I do,
Speaker 2: you know, And that landed at that time in relationship
Speaker 2: to like the construction of narrative and a song and
Speaker 2: beetting a little bit closer to that singularity and that
Speaker 2: specificity around the music. The musical elements are like, Oh,
Speaker 2: I'm not a poet. I don't identify as a poet,
Speaker 2: but I can appreciate that craft where like there's a
Speaker 2: science as a math, like what the sense soial image
Speaker 2: that you want the person to receive, you know, like
Speaker 2: their imagination has to put your symbols together, and there's
Speaker 2: like this like chemical reaction of like imaginative chemistry where
Speaker 2: like oh they get the sense loyal image, and it's
Speaker 2: like it's got to be those words and that sequence
Speaker 2: and that part of the poem. And I I think
Speaker 2: I perceive him doing that with all the parts, all
Speaker 2: the parts, the tambore of his voice, what register he's
Speaker 2: singing in the instrumentation, the texture or the harmonic progression.
Speaker 3: The intro, the outro.
Speaker 2: You know, he's doing that kind of like architecture, you know.
Speaker 2: And I do think, I mean, I don't want to
Speaker 2: conflate them either Wayne and Milton, because there's such distinct
Speaker 2: singularities and that intentionality, that care into the minutia, that
Speaker 2: care of the minutia is something that Wayne definitely embodied
Speaker 2: in practiced down to he wrote every note of his
Speaker 2: symphonic score is by hand now with pen, with pen,
Speaker 2: so you know, the whole score, all the instruments in
Speaker 2: the symphony. He wrote every note, every single note in
Speaker 2: stem and line and sharp pen a hand. And the music,
Speaker 2: the symphonic music he was writing always had like.
Speaker 3: A big theme, you know, a big ooh.
Speaker 2: Story or feeling or idea, and he would be writing
Speaker 2: into the note in that passage of the music. It
Speaker 2: would it would be some aspect of the larger theme,
Speaker 2: you know, So he'd be writing into the note like
Speaker 2: the intention of that part.
Speaker 3: Of the music, like with his hand from his heart.
Speaker 2: He'd be you know, like imbuing the note head with
Speaker 2: that that idea, just the way he just everything. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he would he would be like thinking about it and like, yeah,
Speaker 2: this I want I want this third violinist, I want
Speaker 2: this obo's to like feel this right here. So I'm
Speaker 2: gonna I'm gonna write that in to the to the
Speaker 2: to the phrase, and I mean then you zoom out
Speaker 2: and you're like, Okay, a twenty five minute symphonic piece
Speaker 2: that this person wrote, and every single note that he
Speaker 2: wrote is like imbued with this this like message and
Speaker 2: prayer or intention for the player is It's just it's
Speaker 2: mind boggling. It's like a whole ecosystem, you know. So anyway,
Speaker 2: they're both their own singularity, and maybe that depth of
Speaker 2: care and thoroughness is something that we could say, you know,
Speaker 2: I've witnessed in each of them, you know, in their
Speaker 2: own in their own ways.
Speaker 1: It's interesting too, because you know, I guess you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes I think there's the temptation with things with with
Speaker 1: music to just think that things just are like all
Speaker 1: I mean, there are playing I think happy accidents that
Speaker 1: occur in music making, but not everything is like some
Speaker 1: there are like I mean, there are some things that
Speaker 1: are are intentional and specific to these people that they
Speaker 1: they go out of their way to imbue, you know,
Speaker 1: their music with when do you think.
Speaker 3: About when you talk about happy accidents.
Speaker 2: It makes me think of, well, yes, there are lots
Speaker 2: of happy accidents, and it's like.
Speaker 3: What do you do with those happy accidents?
Speaker 2: You know that that, to me is where the brilliance
Speaker 2: happens because there's so much happening real time when you're
Speaker 2: playing or improvising or composing. Even you know, Wayne needs
Speaker 2: to always say composition is improvisation slowed down? So yes,
Speaker 2: these things were like, oh emerge, yeah, I know he's
Speaker 2: full of Yeah he was like he would say playing
Speaker 2: is compositions sped up? And composition is soloings slowed down?
Speaker 2: But yes, these miraculous your hand you're trying to play
Speaker 2: one voice and like ooh your hand falls and another
Speaker 2: ways like oh okay, that's interesting.
Speaker 3: But you know what's compelling.
Speaker 2: I guess where the like brilliant slides in any artists,
Speaker 2: Like what what you see in that the potential that
Speaker 2: you recognize in the quote unquote happy accident and how
Speaker 2: you how you shift it, you know, how you integrate it.
Speaker 2: And on the record, you know, we on the Milton
Speaker 2: and s Bronza record, we really wanted to do this way.
Speaker 2: Short song one You Dream because of course we were
Speaker 2: thinking of him, uh, from son up to some doown,
Speaker 2: you know, being in Brazil with his dear friend, and
Speaker 2: Leo Genovese was there, and Leo was very close to Wayne.
Speaker 3: Actually, the last.
Speaker 2: Grammy Wayne won, he won with Leo Genovese. It was
Speaker 2: the first time that two jazz instrumentalists shared the same
Speaker 2: Grammy for Best Jazz Performance. Yeah. Incredible, Yeah, incredible player,
Speaker 2: incredible composer. So yes, So we're in this room, you know,
Speaker 2: and all of us in the room had had some
Speaker 2: kind of a connection to Wayne.
Speaker 3: He had departed.
Speaker 2: In his own last words, he said, I'll be back soon.
Speaker 2: I gotta go get a new body so I can
Speaker 2: continue the mission. So we're all just you know, with
Speaker 2: that immensity of his influence on our life and being
Speaker 2: in the studio with Milton and wanted this song, and
Speaker 2: I had done this whole arrangement. I spent weeks prepping
Speaker 2: it and it was not working. It was just not working,
Speaker 2: and I could feel it and I could own that
Speaker 2: it wasn't working. But we just wanted to do it
Speaker 2: so ad you know. So we're like we keep, you know,
Speaker 2: carving at it and trying to rework the clay.
Speaker 3: It's just not happening. And then we like stopped. I
Speaker 3: felt so defeated.
Speaker 2: I was like, ah, the night started remembering or hearing
Speaker 2: Wayne's voice like, you gotta have fun. You know, it's
Speaker 2: suposed to supposed to have hell of a good time.
Speaker 2: You know, in everything, you're not having fun.
Speaker 3: Why do it? You know?
Speaker 2: And it's kind of like we started sharing these like
Speaker 2: quotes and things that we had heard, you know, remembered
Speaker 2: him saying or doing.
Speaker 3: And then we.
Speaker 2: Like threw the arrangement away and we said, let's just
Speaker 2: go for broke. You know, let's just let's just play it.
Speaker 2: You know, the melody is alive in us, and we're
Speaker 2: gonna like let whatever tumbles out.
Speaker 3: There's this line from a great poem that the.
Speaker 2: Police tumbled out of the back of a van like oranges. Anyway,
Speaker 2: it's like that feeling of like, you know, it's just yeah,
Speaker 2: just telling out whatever gravity is working on you, the
Speaker 2: forces of the world working on you.
Speaker 3: Let it go.
Speaker 2: And you could say the whole song, the whole song
Speaker 2: is like this unfurling cascade of happy accidents. Because we
Speaker 2: didn't have like an arrangement in mind, you know, we
Speaker 2: were in real time, responding to the cascade of you know,
Speaker 2: encounters from what each of us was playing that felt
Speaker 2: fun or felt good. And I feel like that what
Speaker 2: ended up on the record is this beautiful portrait of
Speaker 2: like when when you when you usher in, are you
Speaker 2: steward or you you trust? The kind of chaos of
Speaker 2: many brilliant people pouring out, you know, the ingredients for
Speaker 2: happy accidents to happen sequentially through the song.
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Restaurants Spalding after the break.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's like that. That was one
Speaker 1: of the things. You know, Quincy Jones just died too,
Speaker 1: and that was one of the things people kind of
Speaker 1: talks about with him in terms of just the way
Speaker 1: he arranged sometimes was like just getting people who were
Speaker 1: really good at what they did and you could trust
Speaker 1: and just let them go. And I guess that's a
Speaker 1: similar thing, like if you have players who you know,
Speaker 1: you know, bring a certain thing to the table. It's
Speaker 1: like what I'm doing with.
Speaker 2: The exactly that's one of good producing is well, I
Speaker 2: guess you can because sometimes you're run in to produce
Speaker 2: and it's already a group of people that you don't
Speaker 2: you know you don't necessarily have history with but I
Speaker 2: like the agency and the it's almost like a composition
Speaker 2: of people. You know, the composition process starts with the
Speaker 2: people of just what you said, you know, how the
Speaker 2: chemistry of the folks work. You know, kind of like
Speaker 2: the chemical reactions of these group of people. And you know,
Speaker 2: I mean Quincy was definitely a master that, but all
Speaker 2: great band leaders that's what they're doing, you know, that's
Speaker 2: I remember. I mean I think about like Terryln Carrington,
Speaker 2: who's a phenomenal producer, phenomenal producer, phenomenal arranger, drummer, yes,
Speaker 2: a band leader, all the things.
Speaker 3: And it's like she can see, she can like foresee
Speaker 3: miracles between players that I think most people wouldn't give
Speaker 3: the opportunity to to flourish. And she particularly kind of
Speaker 3: has that. I like the potential of young musicians. You know,
Speaker 3: it's like maybe they're not quite there today, but she
Speaker 3: can like sense or smell like, but if I bring
Speaker 3: them into this band with that person, that person, you know,
Speaker 3: that gift, that thing that they have is gonna open
Speaker 3: up and flourish in the right you know, chemical reaction
Speaker 3: with with the other parts that are here. And that
Speaker 3: is maybe a easy to miss superpower.
Speaker 1: Do you think you have that?
Speaker 3: I may, but I don't. I don't have a lot
Speaker 3: of opportunity to find out because I play with the
Speaker 3: same people. I have been so.
Speaker 2: Lucky to encounter these players through my life that are
Speaker 2: just you know, just gems, just so who like Leo,
Speaker 2: like folks in this band, Eric Dude, Matt Stevens, Morgan Gharrion,
Speaker 2: Justin Tyson, Corey King.
Speaker 3: You know, these ones.
Speaker 2: Who I just know, like I just I trust them
Speaker 2: so deeply and to the point where I also know
Speaker 2: they won't let me jump off any cliffs that I
Speaker 2: can't fly back from, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 2: that's also people that can give you like honest critique
Speaker 2: and honest feedback. So I'll say, maybe I have that skill,
Speaker 2: but I'm not putting myself in the circumstances to flex
Speaker 2: that musclefully if it's indeed there. Yeah, okay, I will
Speaker 2: find out, maybe you.
Speaker 1: Kind of from the beginning. I've just been producing your
Speaker 1: own records.
Speaker 2: Yes, I've been producing my record since the first record
Speaker 2: and in I guess two thousand and six six, WHOA.
Speaker 3: That's weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I guess I produced them two thousand and
Speaker 2: five and it came out in two thousand and six,
Speaker 2: twenty years ago.
Speaker 3: That's shocking. WHOA, what do you put it like that?
Speaker 1: To find a point on it.
Speaker 3: I'm like, WHOA, is that true? Yeah?
Speaker 2: And that's I don't want to say that's easier, but
Speaker 2: I feel.
Speaker 3: It's a It's a really different.
Speaker 2: Creature when you're producing in a way that's ushering someone
Speaker 2: else's vision, you know, into fullness. I have immense respect
Speaker 2: for the producers who do that for a living.
Speaker 1: You know, I can't imagine producing your very first record
Speaker 1: is any easy because you're kind of like, I mean,
Speaker 1: now you know what to expect of yourself in a
Speaker 1: situation going into produce another artist you might not know.
Speaker 1: That's like, but like so, I mean in the sense
Speaker 1: of your first albums, and you're kind of like an
Speaker 1: unknown entity to yourself in some ways in the studio.
Speaker 1: As much as strange or someone you're producing got to
Speaker 1: be scary, it had to be weird.
Speaker 3: The truth about that.
Speaker 2: First record is I wasn't planning for that to be
Speaker 2: some sort of like representation of me as an artist,
Speaker 2: you know, at that time in my life in music,
Speaker 2: I was playing all kinds of records.
Speaker 3: I was playing.
Speaker 2: Anybody and everybody's record because I was in school and
Speaker 2: you just your make a record left to right. You're
Speaker 2: going down to the studio from the two am to
Speaker 2: six am recording session. You just here's here's playing and
Speaker 2: doing things. I have made a lot of little demos
Speaker 2: for myself, and you know, when this label called ava
Speaker 2: A y v A approached me like, hey, you want
Speaker 2: to do a record with with you know, just a
Speaker 2: project that you have, I was like, cool, I had
Speaker 2: this little you know, I don't want to say whatever,
Speaker 2: but just two of the many dozens of people that
Speaker 2: I was doing projects with.
Speaker 3: It was and Francisco Mela and yeah yeah, but I
Speaker 3: mean it gets twenty years ago, like we didn't.
Speaker 2: Know who A and Francisco I was gonna become their
Speaker 2: teachers and students in Boston. So I was like, hey,
Speaker 2: you guys, you want to get in the studio, will
Speaker 2: make a record for this Spanish label like cuckoo cool?
Speaker 3: I mean it really didn't.
Speaker 2: It didn't have like gravitas, it didn't have like weight.
Speaker 2: You know, we have been doing tons of gigs around
Speaker 2: Boston with various configurations with you know those two folks,
Speaker 2: and so we just went in the studio, played some
Speaker 2: of the stuff we play, played some improvised stuff.
Speaker 3: Cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah it was, and I'm thinking like this is going
Speaker 2: to be some little like niche record from this niche
Speaker 2: label in Spain.
Speaker 3: The end next kind of like thank you.
Speaker 2: That was a nice little archive of this band, this
Speaker 2: Boston local Boston project.
Speaker 3: Cool, like what's next? You know?
Speaker 2: Then I have played a song by a phenomenal Argentining
Speaker 2: composer called I'd heard a version that Lilyanarrero and Juan
Speaker 2: did of this song called that, which is on the
Speaker 2: record thank you. I love that song and also check
Speaker 2: out and Lillian Nearreo because their version. Anyways, at a
Speaker 2: Spanish management company there happened to be a man from Argentina.
Speaker 2: So when this teeny little label was looking like shopping
Speaker 2: the album looking for you know, promotion, they shopped it
Speaker 2: to this other Spanish company and they're like, ugh, no,
Speaker 2: you know, we're not taking projects like what little just
Speaker 2: this free jazz stuff like whatever. But then one Argentina
Speaker 2: guy was like, wait, what why is this girl?
Speaker 3: Why is this black girl in Boston?
Speaker 2: Know this Argentina composer and just because of that, this
Speaker 2: company reached out and they were like, okay, who are you,
Speaker 2: what are you doing?
Speaker 3: Kind of thing?
Speaker 2: And then that was the only album that I had
Speaker 2: made technically, so that became my first record, you know
Speaker 2: what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so and way you didn't expect it to be
Speaker 1: like a college card or.
Speaker 2: Even looking back, I'm like, that is just okay, yeah cool.
Speaker 2: If it's almost like, oh, if you can.
Speaker 3: I think my beautiful face helped. But I was like,
Speaker 3: if y'all can listen to that, I guess I give
Speaker 3: you anything.
Speaker 1: I've listened to that, your first two records a long time, okay,
Speaker 1: really good, really good, because I feel like the artists
Speaker 1: sometimes you get like a narrative, either maybe you've you
Speaker 1: embraced a certain narrative or people overlay a narrative, and
Speaker 1: I feel like that sometimes, or if I were to
Speaker 1: just think about it, like so, I feel like maybe
Speaker 1: the narrative is like that you've stretched out a lot,
Speaker 1: and you obviously had, you've done so much, but like
Speaker 1: but that that those are kind of more just straight ahead,
Speaker 1: just kind of funny. But really but when I put
Speaker 1: them on, I was like, WHOA. I was kind of
Speaker 1: surprised at actually how good they really are. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought you're not great.
Speaker 3: No, but I hear you. Yeah, I was twenty years.
Speaker 1: Old and needs to be discounted. I don't think I.
Speaker 2: Receive it, and hey, hallelujah, that's a I do think.
Speaker 2: I do think of the ways you can come into
Speaker 2: the music industry. Just looking back now from that perspective,
Speaker 2: it's funny.
Speaker 3: It's funny, it's kind of like cheeky. It actually matches
Speaker 3: the truth of my personality. It's funny that the first
Speaker 3: record was just like weird, random kind of avant garde
Speaker 3: trio free thing with these two black Huban men who
Speaker 3: were way freakier than musically, way freakier than what's even
Speaker 3: on that record. Like, I like that.
Speaker 2: There's something kind of like trickstery about that being the
Speaker 2: first calling card. And in a way, you know, when
Speaker 2: when anybody wants to say like, oh, you know you're
Speaker 2: taking it too out or like you know, do that
Speaker 2: s side of the STU be like, no, there's a
Speaker 2: precedent here here for being you.
Speaker 3: Know, on the edge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, would you do you think you would have if
Speaker 1: you if you had known that that was gonna be Oh,
Speaker 1: I would.
Speaker 3: Have done it completely different.
Speaker 2: Of course, do you think you would have overthought it
Speaker 2: or do you think you have done different stuff?
Speaker 1: Would you have done? Like looking back, what do you
Speaker 1: think you would have done?
Speaker 2: Look him back, look him back. I would have put
Speaker 2: my songs, like my own songs on it. I would
Speaker 2: have sung more. I would have had arrangements, you know,
Speaker 2: more like horn arrangements and vocal arrangements, and oh, I'm
Speaker 2: sure I would have done especially if there was the
Speaker 2: lack of oversight like there was, because it really was.
Speaker 3: It was the sweet It.
Speaker 2: Was like a father son duo who ran this whole album,
Speaker 2: and it was very there was like free artistic license,
Speaker 2: like it was really just like here's the funds, just
Speaker 2: bring us a record, like whatever you want to do.
Speaker 2: And it was a short timeline, so I was like,
Speaker 2: all right, who's who am I?
Speaker 1: Who am?
Speaker 2: I already have a thing with oh YouTube, we've been
Speaker 2: doing gigs all you know all season.
Speaker 3: Let's go in the studio real quick.
Speaker 1: It's kind of the classic way. I don't know, that's
Speaker 1: a great way.
Speaker 2: I feel like that was like representative of the like
Speaker 2: the portrait of the artists and then the.
Speaker 3: Not the problem because I like the second record, Esperanza.
Speaker 3: But what I'll say.
Speaker 2: Is then other people's money and agenda was wrapped up
Speaker 2: in the album I was making. And so I will
Speaker 2: never dismiss or disregard the incredible support and work that
Speaker 2: that first kind of swath of like my team did
Speaker 2: for me. They fought for me so hard and all
Speaker 2: this stuff. That's like I mean, of course that's my
Speaker 2: hard work and my great music. But like all these
Speaker 2: opportunities that keep you know, tumbling talk about tumbling out
Speaker 2: from those early days of my career are really thanks
Speaker 2: to you know, the devotion and the like hustle and
Speaker 2: the whatever was.
Speaker 3: Driving these men you know in the industry who like
Speaker 3: you know it was it was Montuno Productions, and it
Speaker 3: was Dave Love, and it was Concord Records.
Speaker 2: It was John Burke and Mark Wexler, and you know,
Speaker 2: these ones who like they saw like ooh, we know
Speaker 2: what to do with this. It was that kind of
Speaker 2: like I'm gonna say, they saw the commodity value, and
Speaker 2: it's not to I'm sure they cared about me as
Speaker 2: a human on levels. And they're in the music business
Speaker 2: and their dubs to sell music and artists as Amadie
Speaker 2: and and I remember having these conversations with the label.
Speaker 2: My first album came out on Heads Up, which hadn't
Speaker 2: yet been purchased by Concord, you know.
Speaker 3: A KA universal.
Speaker 2: Then they're there, whatever you call it, the overarching companies, university, conglomerate,
Speaker 2: thank you. I think it is SO or parent company
Speaker 2: or whatever. So I remember, you know, I had I
Speaker 2: wrote a lot.
Speaker 3: In those days.
Speaker 2: I had like so many songs, so many arrangements, and
Speaker 2: I remember the head of the of the label be like,
Speaker 2: but we have this grid. You know, you have to
Speaker 2: the songs have to fit in these categories on the grid,
Speaker 2: and so you can't put that a grid. It was like,
Speaker 2: you know, songs that have this vibe, songs like a
Speaker 2: ballad like and it actually became of a joke between
Speaker 2: me and musicians like old, don't mess up the grid.
Speaker 2: Wait now we can't make sure. Don't think he's going
Speaker 2: to get you. And and this is, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: where's the hook of the song. I was like, hook
Speaker 2: of the song. Don't you know what kind of musician
Speaker 2: I am?
Speaker 3: I don't know hooks and whatever.
Speaker 2: So I at my little twenty two year old self
Speaker 2: I remember this like icky kind of tug of war
Speaker 2: with these humans who had more experience than me, were
Speaker 2: older than me, saw me as a kid who hadn't
Speaker 2: know what I was doing, and were really putting a
Speaker 2: lot of pressure on me to make these decisions about
Speaker 2: the music that was gonna get end up on this record.
Speaker 2: And I did fight and push, but it was a
Speaker 2: tug of war. So that means there are compromises that
Speaker 2: I felt like I had to make because these were
Speaker 2: the money people and the folks who knew the industry
Speaker 2: and I didn't know.
Speaker 3: Of course, their ultimate agenda.
Speaker 2: Was like you know, you have you had the potential
Speaker 2: to be big in jazz, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: I was trying.
Speaker 2: To no, because you would never say that to somebody,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: And I don't know if my brain would have registered
Speaker 3: the depths of.
Speaker 2: You know, the power dynamics at work there with all
Speaker 2: these like white businessmen who were seeing this like young
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't. They were my representation and my
Speaker 2: label and my you know, so here I'm this like
Speaker 2: little young, like naive critter who's just like I just
Speaker 2: gonna make neat songs, you know what I mean? I
Speaker 2: don't think I could have comprehended the layers at work
Speaker 2: there in the whole dynamic.
Speaker 3: But they could.
Speaker 2: They definitely could comprehend the layers of potential and you know,
Speaker 2: you know, income potential and commodity potential and brand potential
Speaker 2: and all the things.
Speaker 3: So all that to say.
Speaker 2: From June Joe to then the first album like it's
Speaker 2: to Esperanza, it's a great album.
Speaker 3: I'm like, Wow, yes, I can stand by it, and
Speaker 3: I feel very aware.
Speaker 2: Of the compromises down to the budget was what it was,
Speaker 2: which wasn't great, and so for the engineer to really
Speaker 2: do the great engineer to do the job, they wanted
Speaker 2: producer credit, you know, and stuff like that. And you're like,
Speaker 2: I don't know what that, but you know what that meant,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like I wasn't paying attention
Speaker 2: to that part of the contract negotiations. My manager was
Speaker 2: doing it, who was also friends with the label, who
Speaker 2: was friends with the you know what I mean. So
Speaker 2: you're not tracking this at twenty two you don't know
Speaker 2: how the music industry works yet, and I'm not This
Speaker 2: is not a SOB story.
Speaker 3: I'm so grateful everything that happened happened.
Speaker 2: It just it just is what it is, and it's
Speaker 2: things like also how I think like labor gets invisibilized.
Speaker 3: I think, especially.
Speaker 2: Early on for the sake of you know, people want
Speaker 2: to cut the of the narrative or a cut of
Speaker 2: the credit or a cut of the whatever. And you know,
Speaker 2: I'm sure the people in the room will tell you
Speaker 2: the musicians produced that record. I produced that record. I
Speaker 2: chose the music. You know. It was like, but my
Speaker 2: name's not on there as a producer, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. And and there are elements in that record
Speaker 2: that I roll my eyes about now because there were
Speaker 2: decisions made for the grid. You know, for someone in
Speaker 2: the industries talking about jazz music as industry, it's like
Speaker 2: a joke. For some people, it is their industry and
Speaker 2: that's how they pay their mortgage, and so.
Speaker 1: It's doing a thing a lot of them for error.
Speaker 1: So maybe that's so I guess that's where the grid
Speaker 1: comes from.
Speaker 3: I guess that's where the grid comes in.
Speaker 2: It's just I now, at twenty years later, am clarified
Speaker 2: that then it was about what it's still about for
Speaker 2: me now, which is you know, putting your the sounds
Speaker 2: that you're hearing into the world.
Speaker 3: That's the assignment. That's what I think the assignment is.
Speaker 2: And I say no when the option is, hey, you know,
Speaker 2: put this thing on this record that's going to live
Speaker 2: in the world forever for the sake of potential. I
Speaker 2: don't know, like it could go further quote unquote, or
Speaker 2: you could sell more. You know, I'm always gonna say
Speaker 2: no if it's either or between that choice or the
Speaker 2: representation of what we heard. You know, what the musicians
Speaker 2: like felt, heard, saw and were able to craft in
Speaker 2: a way that someone else.
Speaker 3: Could hear it and see it.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's more truth in that spending more
Speaker 1: time getting exactly what you hear in your head, or
Speaker 1: in just getting out what you can in the moment. Well,
Speaker 1: I I.
Speaker 2: Don't mean what we heard in the sense of like
Speaker 2: a tyrannical you know, it must be it must match
Speaker 2: exactly the image of my brain.
Speaker 3: That's not what I mean by what we heard. I
Speaker 3: mean what's true.
Speaker 2: You know, and what we heard can encompass what happened
Speaker 2: when we started with the sketch.
Speaker 3: But these five people in a room whoa found another thing,
Speaker 3: And you know, it's more about the truth.
Speaker 2: It's more about telling the truth of who we are,
Speaker 2: you know, and the we is the humans who have
Speaker 2: dedicated this time to be doing this and nothing else,
Speaker 2: to create this thing called music that is so mysterious.
Speaker 2: And I think I feel so holy. And I don't
Speaker 2: mean it in any particular denomination or a religious paradigm
Speaker 2: or cosmology, but you know, I think whatever the word
Speaker 2: holiness is trying to speak to of a of a
Speaker 2: something that is possible or is amongst us in this world.
Speaker 2: I feel the presence of this thing that I would
Speaker 2: use the word holy to describe that emerges when people
Speaker 2: are making music, and that thing that, like you use
Speaker 2: the word ineffable earlier, that like feeling or who our
Speaker 2: presence is the thing that I want to share.
Speaker 3: That to me, that is.
Speaker 2: The thing worth efforting to carry it, to give, to give,
Speaker 2: to give, to give it to each other, and to
Speaker 2: give it to somebody who's gonna take some of their
Speaker 2: time out of their life to listen to you.
Speaker 3: Like that's a bit. I think that's a big ass deal.
Speaker 2: Like your attention, your time, that's all you have, and
Speaker 2: we don't know how long any of us are going
Speaker 2: to be on this earth. And like a human being,
Speaker 2: another human being that I don't even know that doesn't
Speaker 2: even owe me anything, like I'm not even their family, being.
Speaker 3: Like oh yeah, okay, cool, Like I.
Speaker 2: Will dedicate some of my time, some of my attention
Speaker 2: to this thing that was created. I feel it's our
Speaker 2: responsibility to just try to just deliver who that holiness
Speaker 2: that we can conjured, conjure a company usher through us.
Speaker 3: And and I think.
Speaker 2: Somewhere I knew these things at twenty, but I didn't
Speaker 2: have the confidence to fully advocate, and I wanted to
Speaker 2: honor the investment other people were making in me, so
Speaker 2: I made a lot of like eye rolling concessions. But
Speaker 2: now people like that around, So now I said that
Speaker 2: I can stand by the last few and be like, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's what we meant. That's exactly what we meant.
Speaker 1: But it came from It's interesting to though that those
Speaker 1: compromises did come from a good place in you, in
Speaker 1: that like you're like, at least it came from I
Speaker 1: just I just want to honor that these people are trying.
Speaker 2: To yeah, and just be getting tired of arguing or
Speaker 2: just being like, well, that's what we gotta tape. That
Speaker 2: person can't come back to the studio, so Let's make
Speaker 2: the best with what this is.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: And also, you know the contract that you signed coming
Speaker 2: into the world to be an artist isn't like everything
Speaker 2: I do will be perfect. I just was watching this
Speaker 2: beautiful excerpt of an interview with Maya Angelou last night,
Speaker 2: who's talking about recognizing that she's a being in process
Speaker 2: above all else. She's a being in process, so she
Speaker 2: doesn't try to affix herself to any version that worked
Speaker 2: in the past, and nor is she even fully committed
Speaker 2: to stating this version of who I am. What I think,
Speaker 2: what I'm giving is final because we're in process. And
Speaker 2: I feel it's really important for musicians of all ages.
Speaker 2: But I want to say, especially young musicians, to stand
Speaker 2: by the archive of what they give to the world,
Speaker 2: because the archive also teaches about our evolution as creators.
Speaker 2: You know, there's things that I've done that I ooh,
Speaker 2: they're out in the world for every and I cringe,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's like, well, that's part of the
Speaker 2: archive that shows a human in process and evolution, and
Speaker 2: that is that's what is interesting to me. I guess
Speaker 2: about being on this journey of being someone who creates
Speaker 2: that you can well, yep, That's what I was tripping
Speaker 2: on listening to reading, and I really wanted to share
Speaker 2: it forward.
Speaker 3: Now maybe I.
Speaker 2: Completely disagree with that, but there you have it, and
Speaker 2: now I can show the evolution from there to hear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, after this last break, we're back with the rest
Speaker 1: of my conversation with Esperanza Spalding. That's why I really
Speaker 1: also respect like people like well, the people who are
Speaker 1: around like I mean, I guess Miles too, but that's
Speaker 1: more as a state, but like Bob Dylan and Neil Young,
Speaker 1: who like the guys who still actively make records, but
Speaker 1: they also are constantly just going through the archives and
Speaker 1: releasing old sketches of things, like you know, and You're like,
Speaker 1: it's it's really valuable. It's really valuable to hear.
Speaker 3: I think Mitchell too.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think you're kind of talking about big names,
Speaker 2: but I think Jerry Allen was also doing that. I
Speaker 2: just last night was listening to the Marylyn Williams Collective,
Speaker 2: and you know, that sounds so different than Grand River Crossings,
Speaker 2: which sounds so different than the trio work with Paul
Speaker 2: Motion and Charlie Hayden at the Vanguard, which sounds so
Speaker 2: different than timelines. I'm just like, whoa you know, WHOA
Speaker 2: here is a person who's like letting the whatever was
Speaker 2: however the last project metabolized like what it brought, like,
Speaker 2: you know, letting that point to whatever's next.
Speaker 3: It's really possible.
Speaker 2: I mean Wayne Shorter is a person like that. Ess
Speaker 2: Mental a person like that. Tarylyn Carrington is a person
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: You know. Also the way Milton returned, like there's so
Speaker 1: many there's something there's so many versions of Milt of
Speaker 1: Milton doing his own oh yeah, you know, and I
Speaker 1: just do like on any giving he's like that, I
Speaker 1: love the first record, yeah, and it's like I love
Speaker 1: all those songs.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then it's like sometimes I like I want to
Speaker 1: go just hear it, like the CTI version you know,
Speaker 1: even later or you know that is also there. It
Speaker 1: is incredible. At what point do you feel you finally
Speaker 1: were able to put something into the world that felt
Speaker 1: like this is what I intended to put out.
Speaker 2: I really feel that Twelve Little Spells is what I
Speaker 2: intended to put out. Like I feel like we and
Speaker 2: Emily duplus evolution. Maybe it started with Emily du plus evolution,
Speaker 2: but also at each point of creating or putting the
Speaker 2: records out, like okay, we can really, I mean I
Speaker 2: signed off. I'm like, okay, we can release this, you know,
Speaker 2: so I'll say that, you know, I can stand by
Speaker 2: them all. And I remember the feeling of Emily's Day
Speaker 2: plus Evolution being like, you know, like nobody was gone
Speaker 2: on this one. And also with twelve Little Spells, it
Speaker 2: just felt so protected, you know, like we it felt
Speaker 2: so much about the folks in the room were only
Speaker 2: people who really cared about the music we were making
Speaker 2: and really delivering like the potential, the fullest potential of
Speaker 2: what these creators around this theme and this body of
Speaker 2: work could give. And I want to leave you know,
Speaker 2: the future open to maybe answer that question in ten
Speaker 2: years and be like, oh, actually it was the one
Speaker 2: that you know happened eight years from.
Speaker 1: Today to the May angela point of never see a
Speaker 1: fixed yeah right, yeah, and it could be the one
Speaker 1: so now yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And also just because to like puncture the potential of
Speaker 2: grandiosity or narcissistem to swell in this conversation, like it's
Speaker 2: also like, yes, I think music is one of the
Speaker 2: most powerful holy forces of Earth, and it's also just music.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean, Like, it's also not that deep,
Speaker 2: Like it's not like we make songs and we play
Speaker 2: them and we put them out in the world, and
Speaker 2: it's like just to be able to do that and
Speaker 2: make a living, do that like good night, We're done here, fantastic,
Speaker 2: everything's working good. You know, let's go plant a garden.
Speaker 2: I also just don't want to get too precious or
Speaker 2: too concerned or.
Speaker 3: I don't know, make it like a bigger deal than
Speaker 3: it needs to be. We're just doing our job. You know,
Speaker 3: this is my job.
Speaker 2: I do this for a living, and I do this
Speaker 2: out of the deep passion in my heart that I
Speaker 2: have for creating and for sounds and for working with people.
Speaker 2: And like the worst thing that we could do some records,
Speaker 2: like oh that's awful. That was all compromised for the
Speaker 2: forces of industry.
Speaker 1: So it's like and right, so what that deep?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it'sody somebody, somebody's out there making the record. You know,
Speaker 2: We're just one little cell in the body of music
Speaker 2: on this earth, and that is such a privilege. So
Speaker 2: I feel like even sometimes younger musicians will have this
Speaker 2: kind of like almost like desperation in their voice, like
Speaker 2: how do you find your voice, like how do you
Speaker 2: how do you get into the industry, and like find
Speaker 2: your voice and do your thing. And I can remember
Speaker 2: that kind of like pressure, that feeling of pressure like
Speaker 2: uh oh, you know, I gotta go do something as
Speaker 2: a grown up now and make this thing I've invested
Speaker 2: in work.
Speaker 3: And I also try to.
Speaker 2: Remind them like, you can't help it, you can't whatever
Speaker 2: the hell you are whatever, even if you just want
Speaker 2: to do Lady Gouggug covers for the rest of your
Speaker 2: life in a club in South Korea and you know,
Speaker 2: or whatever, do Elvis in personation, like whatever, whatever the
Speaker 2: hell your thing is, it's gonna come out. It's gonna beautiful,
Speaker 2: it's gonna be what it is. And the main thing
Speaker 2: is are you enjoying doing it?
Speaker 3: Can you do it? Do you want to do it?
Speaker 3: And just in this life to get to find a
Speaker 3: thing like that, you're winning.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So it's kind of like whatever the whatever you can.
Speaker 2: Find at this point in time, that's a thing that
Speaker 2: you like, that you do, that you sound like, even
Speaker 2: if you think you're faking it, great, do that and
Speaker 2: that's great, And then make sure you call your elders,
Speaker 2: help your friends, who have kids, you know, support folks
Speaker 2: who are disenfranchised, pay attention to your local politics, engage.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
Speaker 2: It's like kind of like, don't fill your brain with
Speaker 2: all these existential concerns of the arts. Like you're a
Speaker 2: human in a world and this is the job you
Speaker 2: get to do and if.
Speaker 3: You just keep doing, it's gonna work.
Speaker 2: Don't worry, and now make sure you pay attention to
Speaker 2: all the other stuff, because we can get very self absorbed.
Speaker 1: It's amazing though, how you can't just accept it's at
Speaker 1: a young at a tender age. It's hard to just accept,
Speaker 1: like you can know that to be the absolute truth,
Speaker 1: and it's really hard to sometimes accept that, right because
Speaker 1: I can remember similarly the same things, you know what,
Speaker 1: like those feelings, it's very hard to hard and.
Speaker 2: We're being bombarded with the like messages of the hero
Speaker 2: I'm using Lea Penman's phrase, the hero industrial complex, this
Speaker 2: idea of like it doesn't count unless I'm the hero,
Speaker 2: Like it doesn't count unless I am the star, right,
Speaker 2: And that is a very that's that's like that's an
Speaker 2: ominous weight. When you have a gift, you know, or
Speaker 2: you have this thing that you love to do like, oh,
Speaker 2: I love to play piano, and I really like like
Speaker 2: I love soul music and I.
Speaker 1: But we don't.
Speaker 2: We don't have a lot of glorified images of like
Speaker 2: a side person or a happy producer or an a ranger,
Speaker 2: like a person who's film scoring, they're living their best life.
Speaker 2: I feel, particularly, maybe particularly for musicians, this is kind
Speaker 2: of like this pressure of like, oh my god, what
Speaker 2: do I have to do to like make it, you know,
Speaker 2: on top, or like get my esthetics together or whatever.
Speaker 2: And that feels like pressure and concern that can be
Speaker 2: kind of a waste, you know. Yeah, And I just
Speaker 2: wonder about musicians that are pushing themselves past the place
Speaker 2: that they'll actually derive the most pleasure and be able
Speaker 2: to contribute them most because of this kind of pressure
Speaker 2: to be more, do more when and the the also
Speaker 2: when we get the kind of very two dimensional representations
Speaker 2: of the artists that we love so much, they're completely
Speaker 2: decontextualized from their family, their community, their elders, their teachers,
Speaker 2: their students. So it can also be really hard to
Speaker 2: get a sense of, you know, an artists at work
Speaker 2: in their ecosystem, and the music industry has no is
Speaker 2: not interested in your long term wellness. So it's also
Speaker 2: something about maybe what I really mean, what I was
Speaker 2: just being mean, like, don't become a narcissist. I think
Speaker 2: what I really mean is like, actually learning how to
Speaker 2: cultivate one's gift in a in a healthy balance with
Speaker 2: being available to and in accountability to your community is
Speaker 2: actually the most sustainable and uh nourishing, soul nourishing way
Speaker 2: to go about this. And you can't sustain as a
Speaker 2: musician if your soul isn't nourished. So maybe that's that's
Speaker 2: what I'm really trying.
Speaker 3: To speak to.
Speaker 1: You know what's interesting? I mean, you know, you're you're right,
Speaker 1: like there aren't like we I was reading when Benny
Speaker 1: Golson passed away. I found power, Power, Power. I found
Speaker 1: a what do you call it? A an oral history
Speaker 1: interview that he had given maybe in like two thousand
Speaker 1: and two or something, and I was reading through it
Speaker 1: and he was talking about Oliver Nelson going to Hollywood
Speaker 1: to score film and TV. And you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: sadly Oliver, you know, doesn't liver. He passes away in
Speaker 1: They're seven seventy one, seventy two, forty forty one, forty two,
Speaker 1: you know, like, but you think about it, like I
Speaker 1: was thinking about Oliver Nelson, and it's like, here's this
Speaker 1: person with an immense talent that I don't think unless
Speaker 1: you really care about the music that you might not
Speaker 1: know you're not gonna his name is not gonna you know,
Speaker 1: fel like Duke Ellington, you know what I mean. So,
Speaker 1: but it's like, is this guy who like had all
Speaker 1: that talent led a band like and probably had design,
Speaker 1: probably wanted to continue to bleed a band, but it's
Speaker 1: like what was available was to go do this work
Speaker 1: and doing filming TV. And like I think Benny's point
Speaker 1: from remembering correctly was like people kind of looked down
Speaker 1: on it a bit. But then also a lot of
Speaker 1: people are going to him from work too, you know,
Speaker 1: so at some point it's like you kind of just
Speaker 1: you know, you do the work you can where you're
Speaker 1: able to do it. Who cares?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 3: The funny thing is a haha.
Speaker 2: You know, it's uncomfortable to admit or it's uncomfortable to
Speaker 2: broach the subject.
Speaker 3: But there are the strands of desire for validation woven
Speaker 3: into our pursuits of notoriety, right, I mean isn't that
Speaker 3: part of what notoriety is. You have a lot of
Speaker 3: people in your inner circle and outer circle.
Speaker 2: Validating the value of what you do, and I don't
Speaker 2: know what you do with that. That can be a
Speaker 2: very powerful motivating force that gets people practicing or finishing
Speaker 2: that song or getting that heartbreak out into a tune
Speaker 2: that becomes a hit that reaches somebody in the remote
Speaker 2: corner of the world that needed to hear that song
Speaker 2: that made them want to get up that day. You know,
Speaker 2: it's like, it's not to judge the motivation, but it's
Speaker 2: something to check out because it begs the question, like, huh,
Speaker 2: what's going on with the musicians who are not as
Speaker 2: attached to the external validation but are deeply invested in
Speaker 2: the relationship with their music and deeply passionate about finding
Speaker 2: and cultivating and creating and maybe don't see themselves as
Speaker 2: ever having because of how they look, or their stature
Speaker 2: or their class or who knows what, and it changes
Speaker 2: across different decades, But who either are not motivated by
Speaker 2: that potential for validation or don't believe that they have,
Speaker 2: you know, whatever it is to even go achieve that
Speaker 2: validation and instead turn that energy towards their other things,
Speaker 2: and you know, allah the story about Oliver Nelson, and
Speaker 2: really so many I can think of about thirty five
Speaker 2: people just off the top of my head who are
Speaker 2: not interested in that part of it, the external validation
Speaker 2: and or maybe of their own self esteem or you know,
Speaker 2: messages they've gotten from the industry about like oh you
Speaker 2: don't quite fit, you know, let's expected, and how are
Speaker 2: you going to show up? And they have thriving, economically
Speaker 2: viable lives in music, and that's just something to know about,
Speaker 2: you know, it's something to contemplate. And I think for
Speaker 2: artists creating, I don't think we should ever shame our motivations.
Speaker 3: Ever.
Speaker 2: I don't think we should ever like shame or feel
Speaker 2: humiliated about the shadow motivations that maybe get us from
Speaker 2: point A to point B. But that doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: we can't investigate them. Yeah, and once we become aware
Speaker 2: of them, you can.
Speaker 3: Make decisions, informed decisions, informed decisions like ooh, am I am.
Speaker 3: I stand up all night every night hustling.
Speaker 2: On this project because I just want to be seen
Speaker 2: as being able to do or like whatever.
Speaker 3: Maybe is that what I really want to do? Or
Speaker 3: is it for the money or is it for the
Speaker 3: and do I feel do I like that?
Speaker 1: Is that?
Speaker 2: Is that what I want to be driven by or
Speaker 2: invested in? And like there's no wrong answer.
Speaker 1: You want to be money In the moment, I got it.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll tell.
Speaker 3: You right here, right now.
Speaker 2: The only reason that not the only reason, but the
Speaker 2: main reason that I propelled myself forward to go like
Speaker 2: accept this scholarship at Berkeley and moved to Boston. I
Speaker 2: was very happy in Portland is because somebody had a
Speaker 2: crush on went to MIT and I was like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: I'll be in Boston, like I'll be closer, like maybe
Speaker 2: you know, like worked at this whole fantasy in my mind,
Speaker 2: and it's like, is that a petty I was seventeen
Speaker 2: years old, you know, but hey, that motive, you.
Speaker 3: Know, the passion got me there.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I never saw the person again, but I was in
Speaker 2: Boston and my life blossomed. So it's just something about
Speaker 2: the exercise of investigating the motives and then, like you said,
Speaker 2: making informed decisions.
Speaker 3: And it's you know, when I think about how messed.
Speaker 2: Up and you know, sick and egotistical and womanizing and
Speaker 2: abusing some of.
Speaker 3: My favorite musicians were.
Speaker 2: It's like, wow, you know, medicine and beauty can really
Speaker 2: come out of anywhere.
Speaker 1: How do you? Yeah, how have you? How do you
Speaker 1: square that? I guess it just managed that you don't
Speaker 1: you do well?
Speaker 3: We're more than I think.
Speaker 2: We're all more than our shadows, We're all more than
Speaker 2: our wounds, we're all more than our egos, and we're all,
Speaker 2: let me not say more.
Speaker 3: We have a lot of qualities, we have a lot
Speaker 3: of things.
Speaker 2: To give, and I don't I don't believe that, you know,
Speaker 2: a person's folly or humanness is grounds for dismissing the
Speaker 2: totality of their contribution. So a person who's abused women,
Speaker 2: who has you know, betrayed people's trusts or been engaged
Speaker 2: in womanizing behavior, if they can make, if they've made
Speaker 2: some medicine that helps me identify like my gifts and
Speaker 2: nourishes me and helps me heal and move forward in
Speaker 2: my life, I'm.
Speaker 3: Going to use those gifts. I'm going to use them wholeheartedly.
Speaker 2: I might investigate some of their you know, guidance or
Speaker 2: you know, testimony about what it is to be a humanist. Well,
Speaker 2: I might look at it with like a little grade
Speaker 2: of assault, we be like, okay, but yeah, I think,
Speaker 2: you know, allowing that immensity of complexity and contradiction that's
Speaker 2: inherent in being a human is an important thread of
Speaker 2: like abolitionist work too, And I really like, I couldn't
Speaker 2: call myself an abolitionist because I'm not doing the work
Speaker 2: actively in community. But oh I'm wearing my Innocence Project sweatshirt,
Speaker 2: which is definitely a part of abolition work. But I
Speaker 2: feel abolition and the work of abolition asks all of
Speaker 2: us to embrace the totality of our humanity and know
Speaker 2: that we are all in process and know that none
Speaker 2: of us are only the worst things that we've done
Speaker 2: are the most harmful things that we've done. Yeah. So
Speaker 2: so almost like the same way that dimensions of abolition
Speaker 2: ask that we still consider folks who have done heinous
Speaker 2: things members of our community that we're responsible for. Kind
Speaker 2: of like you practice that internally with the members of
Speaker 2: your internal community, you know, or the the internal community
Speaker 2: of the artists or crafts people or creators or philosophers
Speaker 2: or whoever whose work is nourishing you. You know, it's
Speaker 2: almost like by taking in their work, they become a
Speaker 2: part of your community.
Speaker 1: And I don't know in ways that are instructive too,
Speaker 1: Like I feel like we have sometimes when you cast
Speaker 1: away or write off people who have done even heinous things,
Speaker 1: let alone just maybe morally a little off putting, like
Speaker 1: you're almost like not almost, Sometimes I feel like it's
Speaker 1: you're you're then casting You can learn as much from
Speaker 1: the negative examples as the positive, and so it's like
Speaker 1: someone's acknowledging that, Wow, maybe I'm also capable of those things.
Speaker 1: Keeping those people as a part of your community, not
Speaker 1: completely right in the moth, allows you to realize that
Speaker 1: we're all sort of capable of both really amazing things
Speaker 1: and really maybe also awful things. And how you then
Speaker 1: make how can I actually make decisions to not do
Speaker 1: that thing, you know, and maybe do more of that thing?
Speaker 3: Yes, and.
Speaker 2: I feel like the tricky part, Yes, I agree with that,
Speaker 2: and I would add to it. You know, the practice
Speaker 2: of keeping like tending community which includes humans who have
Speaker 2: done things you don't agree with, isn't just for what
Speaker 2: the benefit can have to you. It also says something about,
Speaker 2: like I'm actually willing to invest in the keeping of
Speaker 2: another human because they're another human.
Speaker 3: You know that there's not a.
Speaker 2: Contingency on a person's right to be a member of community.
Speaker 2: And I also think about the fear that maybe that
Speaker 2: the subconscious fear that we have around tending really complex
Speaker 2: conflict and even what seems like antagonism because most of
Speaker 2: us have never actually been through the cycle, like we
Speaker 2: don't know what's on the other side of saying Like
Speaker 2: I think about, you know, what's been happening with what
Speaker 2: was happening a lot in a particular season in the
Speaker 2: jazz world of these educators or band leaders. It coming
Speaker 2: out that they had done these like really icky, not
Speaker 2: okay violating actions, you know, towards students, like sexually inappropriate behavior.
Speaker 2: And we're talking, yeah, in the last I was like
Speaker 2: last decade, and this happened with a dear mentor of
Speaker 2: mine in Portland, and what I saw happening was this
Speaker 2: iron curtain or ironwalk coming down. It's like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: we don't know, we actually don't know how to deal
Speaker 2: with this. We actually don't know what reconciliation and community
Speaker 2: could look like. We don't know what accountability and repair
Speaker 2: could look like. We actually we have we have so
Speaker 2: little idea that the only option on the plate is
Speaker 2: like you have to go like by you don't exist anymore.
Speaker 3: It's like that, It's like whatever.
Speaker 2: Other connections or contributions up to that point, it was
Speaker 2: just like you're out.
Speaker 3: And that.
Speaker 2: I agree, It doesn't matter what I think, but I'll
Speaker 2: say just my little two cents in at all is
Speaker 2: like protecting people who have been violated absolutely prior to
Speaker 2: number one. And what I feel that whole response exposes
Speaker 2: is how inequipped we are actually as humans in quote
Speaker 2: unquote community, whether that community is an institution or a
Speaker 2: field like jazz music, to like stay with the trouble,
Speaker 2: to stay with the trouble and go like, actually, what
Speaker 2: if we don't just get rid of this person? Like
Speaker 2: what is protection and repair and accountability and responsibility actually
Speaker 2: look like? And that like stew of questions feels like
Speaker 2: what so scary that you're just like, ah, you know,
Speaker 2: it's like get out. I can't. And I I wish
Speaker 2: I hope for me and and all humans and.
Speaker 3: Folks who have been through all sides of you know, harm.
Speaker 2: I wish for us more robust palette of options, you
Speaker 2: know that we can utilize when harms happen, because we
Speaker 2: are gonna harm each other that's right. We're we're really
Speaker 2: messed up, you know, most of us are really just
Speaker 2: by the time you get to the point of leaving.
Speaker 3: Your house and seeing another person, you already messed up.
Speaker 2: So I mean important too, It's just that's here we are,
Speaker 2: you know. So yeah, I'll just add that I wish
Speaker 2: that for my community and musicians. I wish that for
Speaker 2: my community, my family, and the community of folks I
Speaker 2: work with in Portland, and it really just anywhere there's
Speaker 2: humans who have the POTENTI the harm. I wish for
Speaker 2: us to have a more robust, like I said, pallette
Speaker 2: of tools and skills, and there are a lot of
Speaker 2: people who are tirelessly cultivating those practices, you know.
Speaker 3: So it's not like we're in a void. They're there.
Speaker 1: It just.
Speaker 2: The images of car serial response is what we see
Speaker 2: the most often. So I think the knee jerk reaction
Speaker 2: is to go to that.
Speaker 1: It's our default.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a default.
Speaker 1: So much more I want to talk about, but I
Speaker 1: don't do it another time. Thanks so much for making
Speaker 1: the time. We put links in the episode description to
Speaker 1: Milton Esperanza's collaborative album and also the two playlists featuring
Speaker 1: some of our favorites from both Milton Nastrumento and Esperanzis
Speaker 1: Spaulding and again. To see the video version of this episode,
Speaker 1: visit YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast and be
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod.
Speaker 1: You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken
Speaker 1: Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing
Speaker 1: help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is
Speaker 1: Ben Holliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.
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Speaker 1: Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.