WEBVTT - esperanza spalding 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:22.636 Pushkin. A month ago at the Grammys, Alicia Keys gave 0:00:22.716 --> 0:00:26.516 a beautiful speech while accepting the Global Impact Award. Part 0:00:26.556 --> 0:00:29.076 of her speech was dedicated to the women producers who 0:00:29.116 --> 0:00:32.996 power the industry, women like Patrice Russian, Missy Elliott, Linda Perry, 0:00:32.996 --> 0:00:35.796 and others. This was top of mind for me when 0:00:35.796 --> 0:00:37.956 I sat down with Esperanza's faulding at the Blue Milk 0:00:37.996 --> 0:00:39.876 Club in New York, where she was in the middle 0:00:39.916 --> 0:00:42.836 of a residency, not only because she just produced a 0:00:42.876 --> 0:00:47.316 gorgeous new collaborative album by the unheralded Brazilian genius Milton Ostumento. 0:00:47.876 --> 0:00:52.076 Na'turally called Milton and Esperanza, but she's self produced just 0:00:52.116 --> 0:00:54.996 about all of her own projects from the very beginning. 0:00:55.676 --> 0:00:58.116 Esperanza and I talk about why she's been producing herself 0:00:58.116 --> 0:01:00.276 from the jump in this episode, what it's been like 0:01:00.356 --> 0:01:03.716 working so closely with master mentors like Milton Nostrumento, but 0:01:03.796 --> 0:01:07.356 also Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock, and Espernza tells me 0:01:07.396 --> 0:01:10.356 what she views as the rocky begins and in her career. 0:01:13.156 --> 0:01:23.076 This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. If you'd 0:01:23.076 --> 0:01:25.476 like to watch the video version of today's episode, visit 0:01:25.516 --> 0:01:29.116 our YouTube page, YouTube dot com slash Broken Record podcast. 0:01:30.036 --> 0:01:32.676 Here's my conversation with Esperanza Spaulding. 0:01:34.716 --> 0:01:36.916 He's just such a fan girl for He's not even 0:01:36.916 --> 0:01:39.676 gonna he's not gonna own it, like he's cool, he's cool. 0:01:39.916 --> 0:01:41.516 Yeah, he's probably playing it cool. 0:01:41.676 --> 0:01:43.956 I think so because he knows they're gonna roast him 0:01:43.956 --> 0:01:44.556 about it all the time. 0:01:44.596 --> 0:01:48.316 That's so funny. Cool. Yeah. No, but I'm happy. Uh, 0:01:49.156 --> 0:01:51.276 I'm happy this work out to do too though, because yeah, 0:01:51.316 --> 0:01:54.276 I'm like, uh. As soon as the album got announced, 0:01:54.316 --> 0:01:56.076 I was like, you gotta be kidding me. This is 0:01:56.156 --> 0:01:58.276 the most amazing thing I've ever heard. 0:01:58.356 --> 0:02:01.436 That's what I also felt, this is the most crazy 0:02:01.436 --> 0:02:04.316 thing that I've ever heard. When when his son asked 0:02:04.316 --> 0:02:07.756 me to produce it, So yeah, is that. 0:02:07.916 --> 0:02:11.196 The origin of the visit. So it's going to be 0:02:11.236 --> 0:02:13.116 more you producing a Milton. 0:02:13.596 --> 0:02:18.036 Well when the in the same moment that his son 0:02:18.116 --> 0:02:19.636 was like, oh you should produce this record, he said 0:02:19.676 --> 0:02:23.196 it should be Milton and Esperanza. He kind of he 0:02:23.276 --> 0:02:26.116 framed it as like, oh, it'll be a duo project. 0:02:26.236 --> 0:02:28.316 You know, you and him should do this project together 0:02:28.356 --> 0:02:33.996 and you produce it. And I mean I when you 0:02:34.076 --> 0:02:39.196 revere somebody's work that much, it can almost it felt 0:02:39.196 --> 0:02:45.196 hard to almost like insert myself into the like pallette 0:02:45.196 --> 0:02:50.716 of sounds. You know, maybe I felt an initial temptation 0:02:50.876 --> 0:02:52.876 as a producer. It's just kind of like I just 0:02:52.916 --> 0:02:56.396 want to bring stuff together and just you know, bask 0:02:56.556 --> 0:03:00.036 in the glory of your songs, in your sound. He 0:03:01.396 --> 0:03:03.876 Milton and his son were like, no, no, you know, 0:03:03.916 --> 0:03:06.236 we go do it together. It's gotta be it's gotta 0:03:06.236 --> 0:03:08.236 be your stuff too. It's got to be what you 0:03:08.276 --> 0:03:13.396 want and that so that that actually made it scarier, 0:03:13.556 --> 0:03:18.476 I think, because ooh, it's kind of like, hmm, can 0:03:18.516 --> 0:03:20.876 you it's almost like a challenge to the to the 0:03:20.916 --> 0:03:24.156 mentee or the younger person, like can you stand by 0:03:24.316 --> 0:03:27.916 what you've developed at this point in your musical life, 0:03:28.196 --> 0:03:32.276 you know, and consider it a contribution to the same 0:03:32.476 --> 0:03:35.876 global cannon of music as your you know, mentor. 0:03:36.636 --> 0:03:40.316 And because that's that felt like the that feels. 0:03:40.076 --> 0:03:42.756 Like it's always the invitation with every next generation, like 0:03:43.356 --> 0:03:46.996 you can't just keep you know, revering and bowing to 0:03:47.196 --> 0:03:50.196 and like, oh, you know, holding on this like silver 0:03:50.516 --> 0:03:51.756 holy platter. 0:03:51.836 --> 0:03:53.716 I don't know, the works are the ones. 0:03:53.516 --> 0:03:56.236 Before you like you have to sit in and live 0:03:56.276 --> 0:04:00.076 in and find out about what you've made inspired by them. 0:04:00.236 --> 0:04:02.836 You know, it was initially just maybe so to be 0:04:02.996 --> 0:04:05.356 just you producing a Milton record, but then it's sort 0:04:05.356 --> 0:04:06.796 of no, it. 0:04:06.676 --> 0:04:10.316 Was he always his son always framed it as you 0:04:10.356 --> 0:04:12.676 produced a record, and it's going to be you and him. 0:04:13.276 --> 0:04:16.276 I just found that scary, you know. 0:04:16.316 --> 0:04:18.436 As a conceit of like, oh, it's going to be 0:04:18.476 --> 0:04:21.676 both of our music or both of our kind of 0:04:23.916 --> 0:04:28.156 you know, esthetic voice or presence on the album. I 0:04:28.196 --> 0:04:33.076 felt intimidating as a conceit as a producer, and also 0:04:33.156 --> 0:04:36.676 ass like a person who's so inspired by him and 0:04:36.716 --> 0:04:40.036 feel so affected by his body at work, you know. 0:04:40.356 --> 0:04:44.756 Yeah, I mean you collaborated also very closely with Wayne 0:04:44.796 --> 0:04:47.916 Shorter with the albums dedicated to Did It Feel? I mean, 0:04:48.436 --> 0:04:51.636 I guess and are you are you just not used 0:04:51.636 --> 0:04:55.556 to are you not yet used to working so closely 0:04:55.556 --> 0:04:57.756 alongside your your hero or is it just never Is 0:04:57.796 --> 0:05:00.756 that something you just never grow accustomed to when you 0:05:00.756 --> 0:05:01.756 revere people When. 0:05:01.916 --> 0:05:05.316 Yeah, I mean, when you put it like that, it 0:05:05.396 --> 0:05:08.956 sounds like there's just this long line of people a 0:05:09.196 --> 0:05:12.116 on the level of Wayne and Milton that like you 0:05:12.196 --> 0:05:14.596 could go, you know, like, oh, and the next. 0:05:14.356 --> 0:05:18.836 You'll go work with. To me, those two people are 0:05:18.876 --> 0:05:20.756 like my number one and number two. 0:05:21.036 --> 0:05:24.996 It's not in any hierarchy of order, but really in 0:05:25.076 --> 0:05:31.356 the uh in the history of music that's affected me 0:05:31.876 --> 0:05:37.036 that I've loved most deeply and studied the deepest. Wayne 0:05:37.116 --> 0:05:42.196 and Milton are it, you know, So this weird kind 0:05:42.196 --> 0:05:49.076 of like timing, I guess of working so closely with 0:05:49.156 --> 0:05:53.916 Wayne for a decade, approximately a decade on this opera project, 0:05:54.796 --> 0:06:00.676 and then in the year that Wayne passes this project 0:06:00.756 --> 0:06:03.436 with Milton coming up that I don't know what to 0:06:03.476 --> 0:06:06.996 say about that, even I think that's the first time 0:06:07.036 --> 0:06:10.076 I maybe said that sequence of events out loud. 0:06:10.156 --> 0:06:12.076 And I don't know what to do with that. 0:06:12.116 --> 0:06:15.076 I don't even know how to process that, because you know, 0:06:15.156 --> 0:06:17.436 I know these humans. You know, they are people that 0:06:17.476 --> 0:06:20.836 I love and revere as as folks. You know, people 0:06:20.836 --> 0:06:22.876 that I know that I talk to and call and know. 0:06:23.516 --> 0:06:28.836 And also they are the two of the profoundest musicians 0:06:28.876 --> 0:06:34.436 to ever walk the earth, just period, and and the like, 0:06:34.516 --> 0:06:39.556 the circumstances that conspired for me to even know them 0:06:39.956 --> 0:06:43.876 and to even meet them connect with them, and then 0:06:43.876 --> 0:06:49.196 get through. These projects are just ridiculous, like it's it's unbelievable. 0:06:50.916 --> 0:06:54.196 So all that to say, no, I'm not accustomed to 0:06:54.396 --> 0:06:57.596 working with people like Wayne Shorter and Milton because there 0:06:57.596 --> 0:06:59.556 aren't people like Wayne Shorter and Milkon. They are both 0:06:59.596 --> 0:07:05.076 so singular, and yeah, I getting to know both of 0:07:05.076 --> 0:07:07.356 them in the different ways and the different journeys that 0:07:07.396 --> 0:07:09.716 brought me to both of them have have just been 0:07:09.756 --> 0:07:12.396 miracles of my life, you know what I meant. And 0:07:12.396 --> 0:07:16.596 when the opportunities opened, or the invitations really i'll say, 0:07:16.996 --> 0:07:20.196 came for me to work with them, I just said yes, 0:07:21.196 --> 0:07:22.116 what not. 0:07:22.036 --> 0:07:24.196 Really asking like am I am I ready for this? 0:07:24.636 --> 0:07:25.676 Am I equipped to do this? 0:07:25.756 --> 0:07:29.836 I said yes? Because I love them? You know, how 0:07:29.876 --> 0:07:32.196 could you say no? And that's what I can say 0:07:32.196 --> 0:07:36.356 about that. So yeah, also with also, I don't want 0:07:36.356 --> 0:07:39.636 to like conflate the two of them because working with 0:07:39.676 --> 0:07:44.436 them with their own very distinct journeys and projects and pretexts. 0:07:45.316 --> 0:07:50.636 But it's really something. So it's like a. 0:07:50.316 --> 0:07:51.716 Perpetual kind of. 0:07:53.756 --> 0:07:57.996 Sticks boob like dual state of existence where you're like, okay, 0:07:58.196 --> 0:07:59.796 this this person in front of me, we got. 0:07:59.636 --> 0:08:01.516 This work to do. We're just trying to figure out 0:08:01.556 --> 0:08:03.876 the key for this song or like that, you know, whatever. 0:08:03.636 --> 0:08:05.276 Is the detail in front of you, and then the 0:08:05.316 --> 0:08:07.556 other part of you is like, oh my god, this 0:08:07.676 --> 0:08:12.156 is Milton. Not to mental, you know, just trying to 0:08:12.196 --> 0:08:14.956 actually stay present and not swoon and like faint at 0:08:15.036 --> 0:08:17.836 the immensity of your hero sitting in the room with you. 0:08:17.836 --> 0:08:21.756 You know, so I imagine the like focusing on the 0:08:21.836 --> 0:08:25.156 details and just the task at hand is definitely the 0:08:25.916 --> 0:08:29.396 way to just get your mind out of the fawning 0:08:29.796 --> 0:08:30.916 and the yes. 0:08:31.916 --> 0:08:32.916 One step at the time. 0:08:33.316 --> 0:08:37.596 And also, I mean, you know, since we're talking about 0:08:37.596 --> 0:08:43.716 the record with Milton, Milton is a very kind and 0:08:45.156 --> 0:08:49.716 generous person. You know, he makes it easy for you 0:08:49.796 --> 0:08:52.116 to be around him, like if he likes you, if 0:08:52.156 --> 0:08:55.276 he's messing with you. He makes it easy for you 0:08:55.356 --> 0:08:58.556 to just be in space. You know, he's telling stories. 0:08:58.756 --> 0:09:01.676 He's he's telling them like something will happen with the 0:09:01.676 --> 0:09:03.556 song or in the room that reminds him of a story, 0:09:03.556 --> 0:09:05.556 and then he'll tell you a story and make sure 0:09:05.596 --> 0:09:09.836 you understand, you know, the punchline. And so felt it 0:09:09.876 --> 0:09:13.316 felt very like you know, familial to be in the 0:09:13.356 --> 0:09:16.476 space and create and and the we had work to 0:09:16.516 --> 0:09:19.636 do you know what I mean. Like, he's a person 0:09:19.676 --> 0:09:24.836 who is very specific about what he's put into his 0:09:24.956 --> 0:09:28.156 songs and why, you know, down to like the voicing 0:09:28.156 --> 0:09:31.876 of a chord. And you know, here I was saying like, oh, 0:09:31.916 --> 0:09:34.196 I'm gonna, you know, re harmonize some things, like do 0:09:34.236 --> 0:09:36.156 these little arrangements and this and that, and. 0:09:36.716 --> 0:09:39.836 He was cool a lot of the stuff that I propose, 0:09:40.276 --> 0:09:41.716 and he. 0:09:41.636 --> 0:09:44.516 Would get so specifical like oh no, wait, wait, wait, no, 0:09:44.716 --> 0:09:49.556 that chord has to be that those notes, because it 0:09:49.636 --> 0:09:53.636 really felt like there's like a poetry to how he puts. 0:09:53.436 --> 0:09:54.356 The songs together. 0:09:55.396 --> 0:09:57.596 And because I'm not the poet, I don't know why 0:09:57.716 --> 0:10:00.156 he put that chord there instead of one that maybe 0:10:00.196 --> 0:10:03.556 sounds similar, but he does. And so it was it 0:10:03.596 --> 0:10:06.796 was deep to learn about that specificity of his craft 0:10:06.876 --> 0:10:08.836 that he's like, no, this, this chord has to be 0:10:08.916 --> 0:10:11.316 right because it's doing something, you know, in the logic 0:10:11.396 --> 0:10:14.276 of the whole thing. And that was like a great 0:10:14.676 --> 0:10:18.676 you know lesson too of that that like kind of 0:10:18.716 --> 0:10:21.636 standing up for the specifics and then also being flexible 0:10:21.996 --> 0:10:24.476 to the new voice of somebody else who's hearing something 0:10:24.516 --> 0:10:25.156 new with what you. 0:10:25.156 --> 0:10:27.756 Made there is I mean it's it's fascinating to hear 0:10:27.796 --> 0:10:30.716 that there's these certain details that he feels and need 0:10:30.756 --> 0:10:32.676 to be there because he has such a I don't 0:10:32.716 --> 0:10:35.916 even know how to I wouldn't know how to describe 0:10:35.916 --> 0:10:39.196 his music other than that, you know, and there is 0:10:40.476 --> 0:10:42.716 Maybe it's just because they collaborated and I conflate them 0:10:42.716 --> 0:10:46.116 in my mind, but Wayne and Milton both have this 0:10:47.516 --> 0:10:51.156 to me ineffable quality to the music that's just so 0:10:51.436 --> 0:10:54.556 beautiful and so you know, just to hear that you're 0:10:54.596 --> 0:10:57.396 there and there are these sort of key Yeah, there's 0:10:57.476 --> 0:10:59.316 these things that are key to him and key to 0:10:59.396 --> 0:11:01.396 what he does. I mean, do you feel like you 0:11:01.636 --> 0:11:03.676 understand those things better now? 0:11:03.836 --> 0:11:04.076 Oh? 0:11:04.236 --> 0:11:04.476 Boy? 0:11:07.116 --> 0:11:12.556 What I can? I I don't know if it's understand but. 0:11:13.756 --> 0:11:19.236 I maybe feel the his archetype as a creator more 0:11:19.276 --> 0:11:24.276 as a poet than before. I mean, I remember asking 0:11:24.356 --> 0:11:28.596 him once about his songwriting process. I think I was 0:11:28.596 --> 0:11:33.116 swooning over some lyrics and it's like you know how, but. 0:11:33.076 --> 0:11:35.436 Like how did you do that? 0:11:36.236 --> 0:11:40.196 It was some image in a lyric, like did you 0:11:40.236 --> 0:11:43.236 did you see that image first and then write it? 0:11:43.356 --> 0:11:43.436 Like? 0:11:43.636 --> 0:11:46.236 How how did you you know? What? 0:11:46.276 --> 0:11:46.356 Was? 0:11:46.476 --> 0:11:49.196 What was that process? I think I was asking more 0:11:49.236 --> 0:11:51.196 about like what was the creative process? 0:11:51.236 --> 0:11:53.396 You know, did you sketch it? Was it somebody else's 0:11:53.396 --> 0:11:55.636 idea or a story you had in mind, or you know, 0:11:55.756 --> 0:11:58.716 like how did you craft it? And he just said, 0:11:59.276 --> 0:12:03.636 I'm a poet, you know, that's that's what I do, 0:12:03.916 --> 0:12:09.076 you know, And that landed at that time in relationship 0:12:09.196 --> 0:12:13.476 to like the construction of narrative and a song and 0:12:15.316 --> 0:12:18.796 beetting a little bit closer to that singularity and that 0:12:18.836 --> 0:12:24.676 specificity around the music. The musical elements are like, Oh, 0:12:25.076 --> 0:12:27.516 I'm not a poet. I don't identify as a poet, 0:12:28.236 --> 0:12:31.516 but I can appreciate that craft where like there's a 0:12:31.596 --> 0:12:35.756 science as a math, like what the sense soial image 0:12:35.756 --> 0:12:39.556 that you want the person to receive, you know, like 0:12:39.876 --> 0:12:44.276 their imagination has to put your symbols together, and there's 0:12:44.316 --> 0:12:48.036 like this like chemical reaction of like imaginative chemistry where 0:12:48.076 --> 0:12:52.236 like oh they get the sense loyal image, and it's 0:12:52.276 --> 0:12:54.356 like it's got to be those words and that sequence 0:12:54.396 --> 0:12:57.156 and that part of the poem. And I I think 0:12:57.196 --> 0:13:02.036 I perceive him doing that with all the parts, all 0:13:02.076 --> 0:13:05.076 the parts, the tambore of his voice, what register he's 0:13:05.116 --> 0:13:11.476 singing in the instrumentation, the texture or the harmonic progression. 0:13:10.996 --> 0:13:12.236 The intro, the outro. 0:13:12.396 --> 0:13:16.476 You know, he's doing that kind of like architecture, you know. 0:13:17.196 --> 0:13:20.996 And I do think, I mean, I don't want to 0:13:20.996 --> 0:13:24.956 conflate them either Wayne and Milton, because there's such distinct 0:13:25.316 --> 0:13:33.436 singularities and that intentionality, that care into the minutia, that 0:13:33.636 --> 0:13:39.196 care of the minutia is something that Wayne definitely embodied 0:13:39.236 --> 0:13:44.756 in practiced down to he wrote every note of his 0:13:44.916 --> 0:13:50.476 symphonic score is by hand now with pen, with pen, 0:13:50.996 --> 0:13:54.596 so you know, the whole score, all the instruments in 0:13:54.636 --> 0:13:58.556 the symphony. He wrote every note, every single note in 0:13:58.596 --> 0:14:05.196 stem and line and sharp pen a hand. And the music, 0:14:05.276 --> 0:14:08.356 the symphonic music he was writing always had like. 0:14:08.836 --> 0:14:13.156 A big theme, you know, a big ooh. 0:14:12.836 --> 0:14:18.116 Story or feeling or idea, and he would be writing 0:14:18.476 --> 0:14:22.956 into the note in that passage of the music. It 0:14:22.996 --> 0:14:25.556 would it would be some aspect of the larger theme, 0:14:25.596 --> 0:14:28.516 you know, So he'd be writing into the note like 0:14:28.636 --> 0:14:30.636 the intention of that part. 0:14:30.476 --> 0:14:32.916 Of the music, like with his hand from his heart. 0:14:32.956 --> 0:14:36.996 He'd be you know, like imbuing the note head with 0:14:37.076 --> 0:14:40.796 that that idea, just the way he just everything. Yeah, 0:14:40.796 --> 0:14:42.676 he would he would be like thinking about it and like, yeah, 0:14:42.916 --> 0:14:44.996 this I want I want this third violinist, I want 0:14:44.996 --> 0:14:47.636 this obo's to like feel this right here. So I'm 0:14:47.636 --> 0:14:50.396 gonna I'm gonna write that in to the to the 0:14:50.476 --> 0:14:54.116 to the phrase, and I mean then you zoom out 0:14:54.116 --> 0:14:57.076 and you're like, Okay, a twenty five minute symphonic piece 0:14:57.076 --> 0:15:00.716 that this person wrote, and every single note that he 0:15:00.796 --> 0:15:05.796 wrote is like imbued with this this like message and 0:15:06.356 --> 0:15:10.636 prayer or intention for the player is It's just it's 0:15:10.676 --> 0:15:13.676 mind boggling. It's like a whole ecosystem, you know. So anyway, 0:15:14.836 --> 0:15:18.716 they're both their own singularity, and maybe that depth of 0:15:18.876 --> 0:15:23.316 care and thoroughness is something that we could say, you know, 0:15:23.396 --> 0:15:27.436 I've witnessed in each of them, you know, in their 0:15:27.476 --> 0:15:29.436 own in their own ways. 0:15:29.756 --> 0:15:31.756 It's interesting too, because you know, I guess you know, 0:15:31.956 --> 0:15:35.996 sometimes I think there's the temptation with things with with 0:15:36.276 --> 0:15:40.196 music to just think that things just are like all 0:15:40.236 --> 0:15:42.876 I mean, there are playing I think happy accidents that 0:15:42.956 --> 0:15:45.996 occur in music making, but not everything is like some 0:15:46.196 --> 0:15:50.236 there are like I mean, there are some things that 0:15:50.276 --> 0:15:54.076 are are intentional and specific to these people that they 0:15:54.276 --> 0:15:58.036 they go out of their way to imbue, you know, 0:15:58.076 --> 0:15:59.716 their music with when do you think. 0:15:59.636 --> 0:16:01.596 About when you talk about happy accidents. 0:16:01.796 --> 0:16:05.396 It makes me think of, well, yes, there are lots 0:16:05.436 --> 0:16:08.796 of happy accidents, and it's like. 0:16:08.836 --> 0:16:10.956 What do you do with those happy accidents? 0:16:10.996 --> 0:16:13.396 You know that that, to me is where the brilliance 0:16:13.436 --> 0:16:18.396 happens because there's so much happening real time when you're 0:16:18.716 --> 0:16:22.476 playing or improvising or composing. Even you know, Wayne needs 0:16:22.516 --> 0:16:27.116 to always say composition is improvisation slowed down? So yes, 0:16:27.196 --> 0:16:29.796 these things were like, oh emerge, yeah, I know he's 0:16:29.836 --> 0:16:34.916 full of Yeah he was like he would say playing 0:16:35.076 --> 0:16:38.996 is compositions sped up? And composition is soloings slowed down? 0:16:40.636 --> 0:16:44.116 But yes, these miraculous your hand you're trying to play 0:16:44.156 --> 0:16:46.036 one voice and like ooh your hand falls and another 0:16:46.076 --> 0:16:47.676 ways like oh okay, that's interesting. 0:16:48.116 --> 0:16:50.396 But you know what's compelling. 0:16:50.596 --> 0:16:53.996 I guess where the like brilliant slides in any artists, 0:16:54.036 --> 0:16:56.796 Like what what you see in that the potential that 0:16:56.876 --> 0:16:59.476 you recognize in the quote unquote happy accident and how 0:16:59.516 --> 0:17:02.956 you how you shift it, you know, how you integrate it. 0:17:03.556 --> 0:17:06.636 And on the record, you know, we on the Milton 0:17:06.636 --> 0:17:08.956 and s Bronza record, we really wanted to do this way. 0:17:09.116 --> 0:17:12.676 Short song one You Dream because of course we were 0:17:12.716 --> 0:17:16.116 thinking of him, uh, from son up to some doown, 0:17:16.236 --> 0:17:19.556 you know, being in Brazil with his dear friend, and 0:17:19.796 --> 0:17:23.236 Leo Genovese was there, and Leo was very close to Wayne. 0:17:23.316 --> 0:17:24.436 Actually, the last. 0:17:24.236 --> 0:17:27.516 Grammy Wayne won, he won with Leo Genovese. It was 0:17:27.636 --> 0:17:32.876 the first time that two jazz instrumentalists shared the same 0:17:32.956 --> 0:17:39.236 Grammy for Best Jazz Performance. Yeah. Incredible, Yeah, incredible player, 0:17:39.276 --> 0:17:43.916 incredible composer. So yes, So we're in this room, you know, 0:17:43.996 --> 0:17:46.196 and all of us in the room had had some 0:17:46.356 --> 0:17:47.916 kind of a connection to Wayne. 0:17:47.916 --> 0:17:49.396 He had departed. 0:17:50.276 --> 0:17:54.196 In his own last words, he said, I'll be back soon. 0:17:54.916 --> 0:17:56.516 I gotta go get a new body so I can 0:17:56.516 --> 0:18:02.516 continue the mission. So we're all just you know, with 0:18:02.716 --> 0:18:07.396 that immensity of his influence on our life and being 0:18:07.396 --> 0:18:10.316 in the studio with Milton and wanted this song, and 0:18:10.356 --> 0:18:13.036 I had done this whole arrangement. I spent weeks prepping 0:18:13.076 --> 0:18:16.996 it and it was not working. It was just not working, 0:18:17.916 --> 0:18:20.356 and I could feel it and I could own that 0:18:20.436 --> 0:18:23.116 it wasn't working. But we just wanted to do it 0:18:23.196 --> 0:18:26.596 so ad you know. So we're like we keep, you know, 0:18:26.996 --> 0:18:28.956 carving at it and trying to rework the clay. 0:18:28.996 --> 0:18:33.956 It's just not happening. And then we like stopped. I 0:18:33.996 --> 0:18:34.836 felt so defeated. 0:18:34.836 --> 0:18:40.076 I was like, ah, the night started remembering or hearing 0:18:41.076 --> 0:18:47.276 Wayne's voice like, you gotta have fun. You know, it's 0:18:47.276 --> 0:18:50.436 suposed to supposed to have hell of a good time. 0:18:50.636 --> 0:18:54.356 You know, in everything, you're not having fun. 0:18:54.876 --> 0:18:55.836 Why do it? You know? 0:18:56.476 --> 0:18:59.276 And it's kind of like we started sharing these like 0:18:59.396 --> 0:19:02.836 quotes and things that we had heard, you know, remembered 0:19:02.916 --> 0:19:04.476 him saying or doing. 0:19:05.276 --> 0:19:06.636 And then we. 0:19:06.516 --> 0:19:10.516 Like threw the arrangement away and we said, let's just 0:19:10.556 --> 0:19:14.676 go for broke. You know, let's just let's just play it. 0:19:15.636 --> 0:19:18.196 You know, the melody is alive in us, and we're 0:19:18.196 --> 0:19:21.036 gonna like let whatever tumbles out. 0:19:21.556 --> 0:19:24.116 There's this line from a great poem that the. 0:19:25.716 --> 0:19:29.916 Police tumbled out of the back of a van like oranges. Anyway, 0:19:30.276 --> 0:19:32.996 it's like that feeling of like, you know, it's just yeah, 0:19:33.076 --> 0:19:35.756 just telling out whatever gravity is working on you, the 0:19:35.756 --> 0:19:37.756 forces of the world working on you. 0:19:37.396 --> 0:19:37.716 Let it go. 0:19:38.556 --> 0:19:43.476 And you could say the whole song, the whole song 0:19:44.116 --> 0:19:48.236 is like this unfurling cascade of happy accidents. Because we 0:19:48.596 --> 0:19:51.076 didn't have like an arrangement in mind, you know, we 0:19:51.196 --> 0:19:56.476 were in real time, responding to the cascade of you know, 0:19:57.476 --> 0:20:00.676 encounters from what each of us was playing that felt 0:20:00.676 --> 0:20:04.636 fun or felt good. And I feel like that what 0:20:04.796 --> 0:20:07.196 ended up on the record is this beautiful portrait of 0:20:07.276 --> 0:20:11.996 like when when you when you usher in, are you 0:20:12.156 --> 0:20:18.036 steward or you you trust? The kind of chaos of 0:20:19.516 --> 0:20:23.436 many brilliant people pouring out, you know, the ingredients for 0:20:23.476 --> 0:20:27.476 happy accidents to happen sequentially through the song. 0:20:28.956 --> 0:20:31.876 We'll be back with more from Restaurants Spalding after the break. 0:20:36.556 --> 0:20:38.356 I think, you know, it's like that. That was one 0:20:38.356 --> 0:20:40.836 of the things. You know, Quincy Jones just died too, 0:20:40.996 --> 0:20:43.956 and that was one of the things people kind of 0:20:43.956 --> 0:20:45.636 talks about with him in terms of just the way 0:20:45.676 --> 0:20:49.436 he arranged sometimes was like just getting people who were 0:20:49.516 --> 0:20:51.116 really good at what they did and you could trust 0:20:51.156 --> 0:20:53.556 and just let them go. And I guess that's a 0:20:53.556 --> 0:20:56.356 similar thing, like if you have players who you know, 0:20:57.436 --> 0:21:00.756 you know, bring a certain thing to the table. It's 0:21:00.756 --> 0:21:01.476 like what I'm doing with. 0:21:01.436 --> 0:21:08.756 The exactly that's one of good producing is well, I 0:21:08.756 --> 0:21:11.316 guess you can because sometimes you're run in to produce 0:21:12.076 --> 0:21:14.596 and it's already a group of people that you don't 0:21:15.236 --> 0:21:18.276 you know you don't necessarily have history with but I 0:21:18.436 --> 0:21:23.236 like the agency and the it's almost like a composition 0:21:23.316 --> 0:21:26.236 of people. You know, the composition process starts with the 0:21:26.276 --> 0:21:30.396 people of just what you said, you know, how the 0:21:30.476 --> 0:21:32.756 chemistry of the folks work. You know, kind of like 0:21:32.996 --> 0:21:37.596 the chemical reactions of these group of people. And you know, 0:21:37.796 --> 0:21:40.836 I mean Quincy was definitely a master that, but all 0:21:40.836 --> 0:21:43.876 great band leaders that's what they're doing, you know, that's 0:21:44.116 --> 0:21:47.236 I remember. I mean I think about like Terryln Carrington, 0:21:48.236 --> 0:21:54.076 who's a phenomenal producer, phenomenal producer, phenomenal arranger, drummer, yes, 0:21:54.116 --> 0:21:55.276 a band leader, all the things. 0:21:55.756 --> 0:22:01.236 And it's like she can see, she can like foresee 0:22:01.516 --> 0:22:05.156 miracles between players that I think most people wouldn't give 0:22:05.196 --> 0:22:08.476 the opportunity to to flourish. And she particularly kind of 0:22:08.516 --> 0:22:12.436 has that. I like the potential of young musicians. You know, 0:22:12.476 --> 0:22:15.516 it's like maybe they're not quite there today, but she 0:22:15.636 --> 0:22:19.156 can like sense or smell like, but if I bring 0:22:19.196 --> 0:22:21.396 them into this band with that person, that person, you know, 0:22:21.476 --> 0:22:24.596 that gift, that thing that they have is gonna open 0:22:24.676 --> 0:22:28.676 up and flourish in the right you know, chemical reaction 0:22:28.796 --> 0:22:31.636 with with the other parts that are here. And that 0:22:31.796 --> 0:22:35.116 is maybe a easy to miss superpower. 0:22:35.836 --> 0:22:36.636 Do you think you have that? 0:22:38.356 --> 0:22:42.716 I may, but I don't. I don't have a lot 0:22:42.716 --> 0:22:44.236 of opportunity to find out because I play with the 0:22:44.236 --> 0:22:49.356 same people. I have been so. 0:22:50.836 --> 0:22:56.156 Lucky to encounter these players through my life that are 0:22:56.316 --> 0:23:01.276 just you know, just gems, just so who like Leo, 0:23:01.996 --> 0:23:05.116 like folks in this band, Eric Dude, Matt Stevens, Morgan Gharrion, 0:23:05.756 --> 0:23:07.396 Justin Tyson, Corey King. 0:23:08.196 --> 0:23:09.356 You know, these ones. 0:23:09.196 --> 0:23:13.316 Who I just know, like I just I trust them 0:23:13.316 --> 0:23:17.836 so deeply and to the point where I also know 0:23:17.916 --> 0:23:20.716 they won't let me jump off any cliffs that I 0:23:20.756 --> 0:23:23.076 can't fly back from, you know what I mean. And 0:23:23.116 --> 0:23:27.316 that's also people that can give you like honest critique 0:23:27.356 --> 0:23:32.276 and honest feedback. So I'll say, maybe I have that skill, 0:23:32.876 --> 0:23:36.556 but I'm not putting myself in the circumstances to flex 0:23:36.596 --> 0:23:43.556 that musclefully if it's indeed there. Yeah, okay, I will 0:23:43.556 --> 0:23:45.276 find out, maybe you. 0:23:45.436 --> 0:23:48.476 Kind of from the beginning. I've just been producing your 0:23:48.516 --> 0:23:50.196 own records. 0:23:50.596 --> 0:23:54.956 Yes, I've been producing my record since the first record 0:23:55.876 --> 0:24:01.196 and in I guess two thousand and six six, WHOA. 0:24:01.796 --> 0:24:02.396 That's weird. 0:24:02.996 --> 0:24:05.356 Yeah, well, I guess I produced them two thousand and 0:24:05.356 --> 0:24:07.036 five and it came out in two thousand and six, 0:24:07.196 --> 0:24:07.916 twenty years ago. 0:24:08.036 --> 0:24:10.436 That's shocking. WHOA, what do you put it like that? 0:24:10.596 --> 0:24:14.756 To find a point on it. 0:24:13.716 --> 0:24:17.316 I'm like, WHOA, is that true? Yeah? 0:24:17.356 --> 0:24:20.636 And that's I don't want to say that's easier, but 0:24:21.476 --> 0:24:22.476 I feel. 0:24:24.476 --> 0:24:26.716 It's a It's a really different. 0:24:27.796 --> 0:24:31.436 Creature when you're producing in a way that's ushering someone 0:24:31.476 --> 0:24:36.996 else's vision, you know, into fullness. I have immense respect 0:24:37.076 --> 0:24:39.516 for the producers who do that for a living. 0:24:39.596 --> 0:24:42.436 You know, I can't imagine producing your very first record 0:24:42.516 --> 0:24:45.596 is any easy because you're kind of like, I mean, 0:24:46.716 --> 0:24:49.316 now you know what to expect of yourself in a 0:24:49.436 --> 0:24:53.036 situation going into produce another artist you might not know. 0:24:53.076 --> 0:24:54.996 That's like, but like so, I mean in the sense 0:24:54.996 --> 0:24:57.596 of your first albums, and you're kind of like an 0:24:57.636 --> 0:24:59.796 unknown entity to yourself in some ways in the studio. 0:24:59.796 --> 0:25:03.516 As much as strange or someone you're producing got to 0:25:03.516 --> 0:25:04.916 be scary, it had to be weird. 0:25:05.316 --> 0:25:06.116 The truth about that. 0:25:06.076 --> 0:25:09.356 First record is I wasn't planning for that to be 0:25:09.436 --> 0:25:13.596 some sort of like representation of me as an artist, 0:25:13.756 --> 0:25:15.996 you know, at that time in my life in music, 0:25:16.036 --> 0:25:17.676 I was playing all kinds of records. 0:25:17.756 --> 0:25:18.676 I was playing. 0:25:18.516 --> 0:25:21.356 Anybody and everybody's record because I was in school and 0:25:21.396 --> 0:25:23.196 you just your make a record left to right. You're 0:25:23.236 --> 0:25:25.116 going down to the studio from the two am to 0:25:25.156 --> 0:25:29.236 six am recording session. You just here's here's playing and 0:25:29.276 --> 0:25:31.036 doing things. I have made a lot of little demos 0:25:31.076 --> 0:25:34.516 for myself, and you know, when this label called ava 0:25:34.676 --> 0:25:37.916 A y v A approached me like, hey, you want 0:25:37.916 --> 0:25:40.476 to do a record with with you know, just a 0:25:40.516 --> 0:25:42.756 project that you have, I was like, cool, I had 0:25:42.796 --> 0:25:45.516 this little you know, I don't want to say whatever, 0:25:45.596 --> 0:25:48.676 but just two of the many dozens of people that 0:25:48.716 --> 0:25:50.316 I was doing projects with. 0:25:50.716 --> 0:25:54.716 It was and Francisco Mela and yeah yeah, but I 0:25:54.716 --> 0:25:57.516 mean it gets twenty years ago, like we didn't. 0:25:57.276 --> 0:26:00.276 Know who A and Francisco I was gonna become their 0:26:00.556 --> 0:26:03.716 teachers and students in Boston. So I was like, hey, 0:26:03.756 --> 0:26:05.356 you guys, you want to get in the studio, will 0:26:05.356 --> 0:26:08.156 make a record for this Spanish label like cuckoo cool? 0:26:08.276 --> 0:26:09.076 I mean it really didn't. 0:26:09.356 --> 0:26:12.276 It didn't have like gravitas, it didn't have like weight. 0:26:12.556 --> 0:26:14.956 You know, we have been doing tons of gigs around 0:26:14.956 --> 0:26:18.516 Boston with various configurations with you know those two folks, 0:26:18.596 --> 0:26:20.676 and so we just went in the studio, played some 0:26:20.676 --> 0:26:23.196 of the stuff we play, played some improvised stuff. 0:26:24.196 --> 0:26:24.516 Cool. 0:26:25.636 --> 0:26:29.196 Yeah it was, and I'm thinking like this is going 0:26:29.276 --> 0:26:31.716 to be some little like niche record from this niche 0:26:31.796 --> 0:26:32.876 label in Spain. 0:26:33.756 --> 0:26:36.196 The end next kind of like thank you. 0:26:36.356 --> 0:26:38.476 That was a nice little archive of this band, this 0:26:38.556 --> 0:26:40.436 Boston local Boston project. 0:26:40.836 --> 0:26:42.236 Cool, like what's next? You know? 0:26:42.996 --> 0:26:48.556 Then I have played a song by a phenomenal Argentining 0:26:48.796 --> 0:26:54.116 composer called I'd heard a version that Lilyanarrero and Juan 0:26:54.516 --> 0:26:58.396 did of this song called that, which is on the 0:26:58.396 --> 0:27:01.316 record thank you. I love that song and also check 0:27:01.356 --> 0:27:06.796 out and Lillian Nearreo because their version. Anyways, at a 0:27:06.796 --> 0:27:12.716 Spanish management company there happened to be a man from Argentina. 0:27:13.316 --> 0:27:16.396 So when this teeny little label was looking like shopping 0:27:16.436 --> 0:27:19.516 the album looking for you know, promotion, they shopped it 0:27:19.556 --> 0:27:23.316 to this other Spanish company and they're like, ugh, no, 0:27:23.556 --> 0:27:25.356 you know, we're not taking projects like what little just 0:27:25.396 --> 0:27:28.516 this free jazz stuff like whatever. But then one Argentina 0:27:28.516 --> 0:27:30.596 guy was like, wait, what why is this girl? 0:27:30.836 --> 0:27:32.716 Why is this black girl in Boston? 0:27:32.836 --> 0:27:38.396 Know this Argentina composer and just because of that, this 0:27:38.436 --> 0:27:40.636 company reached out and they were like, okay, who are you, 0:27:40.756 --> 0:27:41.356 what are you doing? 0:27:41.596 --> 0:27:42.036 Kind of thing? 0:27:42.996 --> 0:27:45.476 And then that was the only album that I had 0:27:45.476 --> 0:27:48.596 made technically, so that became my first record, you know 0:27:48.636 --> 0:27:49.116 what I'm saying. 0:27:49.276 --> 0:27:51.756 Yeah, so and way you didn't expect it to be 0:27:51.756 --> 0:27:52.876 like a college card or. 0:27:54.236 --> 0:27:58.636 Even looking back, I'm like, that is just okay, yeah cool. 0:27:58.876 --> 0:28:01.676 If it's almost like, oh, if you can. 0:28:01.276 --> 0:28:03.796 I think my beautiful face helped. But I was like, 0:28:03.876 --> 0:28:06.596 if y'all can listen to that, I guess I give 0:28:06.636 --> 0:28:07.236 you anything. 0:28:08.756 --> 0:28:12.436 I've listened to that, your first two records a long time, okay, 0:28:12.716 --> 0:28:15.636 really good, really good, because I feel like the artists 0:28:15.636 --> 0:28:19.636 sometimes you get like a narrative, either maybe you've you 0:28:19.676 --> 0:28:22.556 embraced a certain narrative or people overlay a narrative, and 0:28:22.596 --> 0:28:25.996 I feel like that sometimes, or if I were to 0:28:26.036 --> 0:28:27.716 just think about it, like so, I feel like maybe 0:28:27.716 --> 0:28:29.676 the narrative is like that you've stretched out a lot, 0:28:29.796 --> 0:28:32.196 and you obviously had, you've done so much, but like 0:28:32.436 --> 0:28:34.596 but that that those are kind of more just straight ahead, 0:28:34.716 --> 0:28:38.596 just kind of funny. But really but when I put 0:28:38.596 --> 0:28:40.156 them on, I was like, WHOA. I was kind of 0:28:40.196 --> 0:28:44.316 surprised at actually how good they really are. Yeah, yeah, 0:28:45.076 --> 0:28:45.956 I thought you're not great. 0:28:46.076 --> 0:28:48.596 No, but I hear you. Yeah, I was twenty years. 0:28:48.476 --> 0:28:51.036 Old and needs to be discounted. I don't think I. 0:28:50.916 --> 0:28:55.556 Receive it, and hey, hallelujah, that's a I do think. 0:28:56.636 --> 0:28:58.356 I do think of the ways you can come into 0:28:58.436 --> 0:29:01.636 the music industry. Just looking back now from that perspective, 0:29:02.076 --> 0:29:03.676 it's funny. 0:29:03.756 --> 0:29:06.796 It's funny, it's kind of like cheeky. It actually matches 0:29:06.836 --> 0:29:09.836 the truth of my personality. It's funny that the first 0:29:09.876 --> 0:29:15.436 record was just like weird, random kind of avant garde 0:29:15.836 --> 0:29:20.316 trio free thing with these two black Huban men who 0:29:20.356 --> 0:29:23.716 were way freakier than musically, way freakier than what's even 0:29:23.716 --> 0:29:25.956 on that record. Like, I like that. 0:29:26.316 --> 0:29:30.076 There's something kind of like trickstery about that being the 0:29:30.516 --> 0:29:34.396 first calling card. And in a way, you know, when 0:29:34.516 --> 0:29:36.676 when anybody wants to say like, oh, you know you're 0:29:36.716 --> 0:29:38.516 taking it too out or like you know, do that 0:29:38.636 --> 0:29:40.356 s side of the STU be like, no, there's a 0:29:40.396 --> 0:29:44.156 precedent here here for being you. 0:29:44.116 --> 0:29:45.556 Know, on the edge. 0:29:46.196 --> 0:29:48.636 Yeah, would you do you think you would have if 0:29:48.676 --> 0:29:51.796 you if you had known that that was gonna be Oh, 0:29:51.916 --> 0:29:52.916 I would. 0:29:52.636 --> 0:29:54.116 Have done it completely different. 0:29:54.156 --> 0:29:55.876 Of course, do you think you would have overthought it 0:29:55.996 --> 0:29:57.476 or do you think you have done different stuff? 0:29:57.476 --> 0:29:59.116 Would you have done? Like looking back, what do you 0:29:59.116 --> 0:29:59.796 think you would have done? 0:29:59.876 --> 0:30:04.516 Look him back, look him back. I would have put 0:30:04.556 --> 0:30:08.436 my songs, like my own songs on it. I would 0:30:08.436 --> 0:30:12.236 have sung more. I would have had arrangements, you know, 0:30:12.716 --> 0:30:18.156 more like horn arrangements and vocal arrangements, and oh, I'm 0:30:18.196 --> 0:30:21.036 sure I would have done especially if there was the 0:30:21.156 --> 0:30:25.116 lack of oversight like there was, because it really was. 0:30:25.676 --> 0:30:26.716 It was the sweet It. 0:30:26.676 --> 0:30:31.276 Was like a father son duo who ran this whole album, 0:30:31.556 --> 0:30:34.636 and it was very there was like free artistic license, 0:30:34.716 --> 0:30:37.756 like it was really just like here's the funds, just 0:30:37.796 --> 0:30:39.956 bring us a record, like whatever you want to do. 0:30:40.756 --> 0:30:42.356 And it was a short timeline, so I was like, 0:30:42.396 --> 0:30:43.796 all right, who's who am I? 0:30:43.836 --> 0:30:44.116 Who am? 0:30:44.116 --> 0:30:45.756 I already have a thing with oh YouTube, we've been 0:30:45.796 --> 0:30:47.636 doing gigs all you know all season. 0:30:47.876 --> 0:30:49.196 Let's go in the studio real quick. 0:30:50.036 --> 0:30:52.516 It's kind of the classic way. I don't know, that's 0:30:52.556 --> 0:30:54.756 a great way. 0:30:54.796 --> 0:30:57.916 I feel like that was like representative of the like 0:30:58.076 --> 0:31:01.676 the portrait of the artists and then the. 0:31:01.916 --> 0:31:04.956 Not the problem because I like the second record, Esperanza. 0:31:04.996 --> 0:31:06.436 But what I'll say. 0:31:06.356 --> 0:31:11.556 Is then other people's money and agenda was wrapped up 0:31:11.636 --> 0:31:15.356 in the album I was making. And so I will 0:31:15.396 --> 0:31:19.156 never dismiss or disregard the incredible support and work that 0:31:19.156 --> 0:31:22.556 that first kind of swath of like my team did 0:31:22.596 --> 0:31:25.716 for me. They fought for me so hard and all 0:31:25.796 --> 0:31:28.316 this stuff. That's like I mean, of course that's my 0:31:28.676 --> 0:31:31.156 hard work and my great music. But like all these 0:31:31.196 --> 0:31:34.156 opportunities that keep you know, tumbling talk about tumbling out 0:31:34.716 --> 0:31:37.236 from those early days of my career are really thanks 0:31:37.276 --> 0:31:41.036 to you know, the devotion and the like hustle and 0:31:41.116 --> 0:31:42.516 the whatever was. 0:31:42.516 --> 0:31:44.996 Driving these men you know in the industry who like 0:31:45.236 --> 0:31:50.076 you know it was it was Montuno Productions, and it 0:31:50.116 --> 0:31:52.356 was Dave Love, and it was Concord Records. 0:31:52.356 --> 0:31:55.996 It was John Burke and Mark Wexler, and you know, 0:31:56.076 --> 0:31:58.516 these ones who like they saw like ooh, we know 0:31:58.556 --> 0:31:59.956 what to do with this. It was that kind of 0:31:59.956 --> 0:32:03.916 like I'm gonna say, they saw the commodity value, and 0:32:03.956 --> 0:32:05.636 it's not to I'm sure they cared about me as 0:32:05.636 --> 0:32:09.476 a human on levels. And they're in the music business 0:32:09.556 --> 0:32:14.076 and their dubs to sell music and artists as Amadie 0:32:14.236 --> 0:32:19.796 and and I remember having these conversations with the label. 0:32:19.876 --> 0:32:23.156 My first album came out on Heads Up, which hadn't 0:32:23.236 --> 0:32:26.716 yet been purchased by Concord, you know. 0:32:26.796 --> 0:32:27.916 A KA universal. 0:32:28.956 --> 0:32:34.036 Then they're there, whatever you call it, the overarching companies, university, conglomerate, 0:32:34.036 --> 0:32:38.596 thank you. I think it is SO or parent company 0:32:38.676 --> 0:32:41.956 or whatever. So I remember, you know, I had I 0:32:42.076 --> 0:32:42.876 wrote a lot. 0:32:42.716 --> 0:32:43.476 In those days. 0:32:43.556 --> 0:32:47.276 I had like so many songs, so many arrangements, and 0:32:47.316 --> 0:32:51.356 I remember the head of the of the label be like, 0:32:51.396 --> 0:32:54.876 but we have this grid. You know, you have to 0:32:55.076 --> 0:32:58.236 the songs have to fit in these categories on the grid, 0:32:58.356 --> 0:33:00.916 and so you can't put that a grid. It was like, 0:33:01.276 --> 0:33:03.956 you know, songs that have this vibe, songs like a 0:33:03.996 --> 0:33:08.156 ballad like and it actually became of a joke between 0:33:08.156 --> 0:33:10.036 me and musicians like old, don't mess up the grid. 0:33:10.396 --> 0:33:13.116 Wait now we can't make sure. Don't think he's going 0:33:13.156 --> 0:33:15.716 to get you. And and this is, oh, you know, 0:33:15.716 --> 0:33:17.276 where's the hook of the song. I was like, hook 0:33:17.316 --> 0:33:20.236 of the song. Don't you know what kind of musician 0:33:20.276 --> 0:33:20.476 I am? 0:33:20.476 --> 0:33:21.916 I don't know hooks and whatever. 0:33:22.316 --> 0:33:25.116 So I at my little twenty two year old self 0:33:26.076 --> 0:33:29.676 I remember this like icky kind of tug of war 0:33:30.436 --> 0:33:33.716 with these humans who had more experience than me, were 0:33:33.756 --> 0:33:36.036 older than me, saw me as a kid who hadn't 0:33:36.036 --> 0:33:38.276 know what I was doing, and were really putting a 0:33:38.316 --> 0:33:41.916 lot of pressure on me to make these decisions about 0:33:41.956 --> 0:33:44.516 the music that was gonna get end up on this record. 0:33:45.156 --> 0:33:48.876 And I did fight and push, but it was a 0:33:48.956 --> 0:33:52.716 tug of war. So that means there are compromises that 0:33:52.756 --> 0:33:54.676 I felt like I had to make because these were 0:33:54.676 --> 0:33:57.036 the money people and the folks who knew the industry 0:33:57.916 --> 0:33:58.956 and I didn't know. 0:33:58.996 --> 0:34:00.836 Of course, their ultimate agenda. 0:34:00.676 --> 0:34:02.636 Was like you know, you have you had the potential 0:34:02.636 --> 0:34:04.116 to be big in jazz, you know what I mean. 0:34:04.396 --> 0:34:05.156 I was trying. 0:34:04.916 --> 0:34:09.316 To no, because you would never say that to somebody, 0:34:09.396 --> 0:34:09.676 you know. 0:34:10.116 --> 0:34:12.716 And I don't know if my brain would have registered 0:34:12.716 --> 0:34:13.516 the depths of. 0:34:13.916 --> 0:34:16.396 You know, the power dynamics at work there with all 0:34:16.396 --> 0:34:19.396 these like white businessmen who were seeing this like young 0:34:19.876 --> 0:34:22.076 you know, I didn't. They were my representation and my 0:34:22.156 --> 0:34:24.436 label and my you know, so here I'm this like 0:34:24.476 --> 0:34:27.236 little young, like naive critter who's just like I just 0:34:27.276 --> 0:34:29.436 gonna make neat songs, you know what I mean? I 0:34:29.436 --> 0:34:33.956 don't think I could have comprehended the layers at work 0:34:33.996 --> 0:34:36.276 there in the whole dynamic. 0:34:36.076 --> 0:34:36.836 But they could. 0:34:38.396 --> 0:34:42.516 They definitely could comprehend the layers of potential and you know, 0:34:43.156 --> 0:34:47.036 you know, income potential and commodity potential and brand potential 0:34:47.036 --> 0:34:48.236 and all the things. 0:34:48.796 --> 0:34:50.556 So all that to say. 0:34:50.876 --> 0:34:53.196 From June Joe to then the first album like it's 0:34:53.316 --> 0:34:55.636 to Esperanza, it's a great album. 0:34:55.676 --> 0:34:58.036 I'm like, Wow, yes, I can stand by it, and 0:34:58.596 --> 0:35:00.596 I feel very aware. 0:35:00.276 --> 0:35:05.356 Of the compromises down to the budget was what it was, 0:35:05.396 --> 0:35:10.476 which wasn't great, and so for the engineer to really 0:35:10.756 --> 0:35:14.916 do the great engineer to do the job, they wanted 0:35:15.196 --> 0:35:19.596 producer credit, you know, and stuff like that. And you're like, 0:35:20.996 --> 0:35:23.556 I don't know what that, but you know what that meant, 0:35:24.316 --> 0:35:26.316 you know what I mean? Like I wasn't paying attention 0:35:26.356 --> 0:35:29.756 to that part of the contract negotiations. My manager was 0:35:29.796 --> 0:35:32.356 doing it, who was also friends with the label, who 0:35:32.436 --> 0:35:33.876 was friends with the you know what I mean. So 0:35:34.436 --> 0:35:36.676 you're not tracking this at twenty two you don't know 0:35:36.716 --> 0:35:38.796 how the music industry works yet, and I'm not This 0:35:38.876 --> 0:35:39.796 is not a SOB story. 0:35:39.836 --> 0:35:41.596 I'm so grateful everything that happened happened. 0:35:41.956 --> 0:35:44.876 It just it just is what it is, and it's 0:35:44.916 --> 0:35:49.836 things like also how I think like labor gets invisibilized. 0:35:50.236 --> 0:35:51.396 I think, especially. 0:35:50.996 --> 0:35:54.156 Early on for the sake of you know, people want 0:35:54.156 --> 0:35:57.556 to cut the of the narrative or a cut of 0:35:57.596 --> 0:36:00.956 the credit or a cut of the whatever. And you know, 0:36:01.916 --> 0:36:04.716 I'm sure the people in the room will tell you 0:36:05.036 --> 0:36:07.876 the musicians produced that record. I produced that record. I 0:36:08.156 --> 0:36:10.396 chose the music. You know. It was like, but my 0:36:10.476 --> 0:36:12.076 name's not on there as a producer, you know what 0:36:12.116 --> 0:36:16.996 I mean. And and there are elements in that record 0:36:16.996 --> 0:36:19.516 that I roll my eyes about now because there were 0:36:19.516 --> 0:36:22.156 decisions made for the grid. You know, for someone in 0:36:22.196 --> 0:36:28.596 the industries talking about jazz music as industry, it's like 0:36:28.596 --> 0:36:32.116 a joke. For some people, it is their industry and 0:36:32.156 --> 0:36:33.996 that's how they pay their mortgage, and so. 0:36:37.036 --> 0:36:39.316 It's doing a thing a lot of them for error. 0:36:39.356 --> 0:36:41.876 So maybe that's so I guess that's where the grid 0:36:41.916 --> 0:36:42.236 comes from. 0:36:42.276 --> 0:36:43.476 I guess that's where the grid comes in. 0:36:43.556 --> 0:36:51.756 It's just I now, at twenty years later, am clarified 0:36:51.836 --> 0:36:54.276 that then it was about what it's still about for 0:36:54.356 --> 0:37:01.636 me now, which is you know, putting your the sounds 0:37:01.636 --> 0:37:03.156 that you're hearing into the world. 0:37:03.876 --> 0:37:06.516 That's the assignment. That's what I think the assignment is. 0:37:07.276 --> 0:37:15.756 And I say no when the option is, hey, you know, 0:37:15.876 --> 0:37:17.556 put this thing on this record that's going to live 0:37:17.556 --> 0:37:21.556 in the world forever for the sake of potential. I 0:37:21.596 --> 0:37:24.716 don't know, like it could go further quote unquote, or 0:37:25.316 --> 0:37:28.636 you could sell more. You know, I'm always gonna say 0:37:28.676 --> 0:37:34.676 no if it's either or between that choice or the 0:37:34.836 --> 0:37:38.436 representation of what we heard. You know, what the musicians 0:37:38.596 --> 0:37:43.596 like felt, heard, saw and were able to craft in 0:37:43.636 --> 0:37:44.876 a way that someone else. 0:37:44.716 --> 0:37:45.636 Could hear it and see it. 0:37:45.676 --> 0:37:48.796 Do you think there's more truth in that spending more 0:37:48.836 --> 0:37:53.196 time getting exactly what you hear in your head, or 0:37:53.356 --> 0:37:58.596 in just getting out what you can in the moment. Well, 0:37:58.676 --> 0:37:59.596 I I. 0:37:59.556 --> 0:38:02.036 Don't mean what we heard in the sense of like 0:38:02.076 --> 0:38:05.756 a tyrannical you know, it must be it must match 0:38:05.796 --> 0:38:06.876 exactly the image of my brain. 0:38:06.916 --> 0:38:09.316 That's not what I mean by what we heard. I 0:38:09.356 --> 0:38:12.196 mean what's true. 0:38:11.436 --> 0:38:14.676 You know, and what we heard can encompass what happened 0:38:14.676 --> 0:38:16.436 when we started with the sketch. 0:38:16.996 --> 0:38:20.036 But these five people in a room whoa found another thing, 0:38:20.116 --> 0:38:22.676 And you know, it's more about the truth. 0:38:22.876 --> 0:38:25.996 It's more about telling the truth of who we are, 0:38:26.316 --> 0:38:29.316 you know, and the we is the humans who have 0:38:29.676 --> 0:38:32.316 dedicated this time to be doing this and nothing else, 0:38:32.836 --> 0:38:37.676 to create this thing called music that is so mysterious. 0:38:37.716 --> 0:38:41.516 And I think I feel so holy. And I don't 0:38:41.516 --> 0:38:44.676 mean it in any particular denomination or a religious paradigm 0:38:44.716 --> 0:38:48.756 or cosmology, but you know, I think whatever the word 0:38:48.836 --> 0:38:52.556 holiness is trying to speak to of a of a 0:38:52.636 --> 0:38:58.436 something that is possible or is amongst us in this world. 0:38:59.276 --> 0:39:02.796 I feel the presence of this thing that I would 0:39:02.876 --> 0:39:07.036 use the word holy to describe that emerges when people 0:39:07.156 --> 0:39:12.476 are making music, and that thing that, like you use 0:39:12.556 --> 0:39:17.036 the word ineffable earlier, that like feeling or who our 0:39:17.156 --> 0:39:20.076 presence is the thing that I want to share. 0:39:20.236 --> 0:39:22.036 That to me, that is. 0:39:21.996 --> 0:39:27.436 The thing worth efforting to carry it, to give, to give, 0:39:28.316 --> 0:39:30.556 to give, to give it to each other, and to 0:39:30.596 --> 0:39:33.276 give it to somebody who's gonna take some of their 0:39:33.316 --> 0:39:35.156 time out of their life to listen to you. 0:39:35.236 --> 0:39:38.356 Like that's a bit. I think that's a big ass deal. 0:39:39.036 --> 0:39:42.276 Like your attention, your time, that's all you have, and 0:39:42.476 --> 0:39:44.556 we don't know how long any of us are going 0:39:44.636 --> 0:39:47.076 to be on this earth. And like a human being, 0:39:47.436 --> 0:39:49.556 another human being that I don't even know that doesn't 0:39:49.556 --> 0:39:53.556 even owe me anything, like I'm not even their family, being. 0:39:53.436 --> 0:39:56.356 Like oh yeah, okay, cool, Like I. 0:39:56.316 --> 0:40:00.356 Will dedicate some of my time, some of my attention 0:40:00.996 --> 0:40:04.556 to this thing that was created. I feel it's our 0:40:04.596 --> 0:40:10.236 responsibility to just try to just deliver who that holiness 0:40:10.236 --> 0:40:21.236 that we can conjured, conjure a company usher through us. 0:40:21.436 --> 0:40:24.876 And and I think. 0:40:24.956 --> 0:40:27.316 Somewhere I knew these things at twenty, but I didn't 0:40:27.356 --> 0:40:32.876 have the confidence to fully advocate, and I wanted to 0:40:33.076 --> 0:40:35.876 honor the investment other people were making in me, so 0:40:35.916 --> 0:40:39.716 I made a lot of like eye rolling concessions. But 0:40:39.836 --> 0:40:47.556 now people like that around, So now I said that 0:40:47.596 --> 0:40:49.276 I can stand by the last few and be like, yeah, 0:40:49.276 --> 0:40:51.036 that's what we meant. That's exactly what we meant. 0:40:51.076 --> 0:40:53.636 But it came from It's interesting to though that those 0:40:53.636 --> 0:40:56.836 compromises did come from a good place in you, in 0:40:56.876 --> 0:40:59.236 that like you're like, at least it came from I 0:40:59.316 --> 0:41:01.556 just I just want to honor that these people are trying. 0:41:01.356 --> 0:41:06.196 To yeah, and just be getting tired of arguing or 0:41:06.356 --> 0:41:10.356 just being like, well, that's what we gotta tape. That 0:41:10.396 --> 0:41:12.196 person can't come back to the studio, so Let's make 0:41:12.236 --> 0:41:13.436 the best with what this is. 0:41:13.316 --> 0:41:13.556 You know. 0:41:15.676 --> 0:41:20.556 And also, you know the contract that you signed coming 0:41:20.596 --> 0:41:23.516 into the world to be an artist isn't like everything 0:41:23.556 --> 0:41:27.236 I do will be perfect. I just was watching this 0:41:27.276 --> 0:41:30.276 beautiful excerpt of an interview with Maya Angelou last night, 0:41:30.676 --> 0:41:34.396 who's talking about recognizing that she's a being in process 0:41:34.836 --> 0:41:37.436 above all else. She's a being in process, so she 0:41:37.476 --> 0:41:41.836 doesn't try to affix herself to any version that worked 0:41:41.876 --> 0:41:44.996 in the past, and nor is she even fully committed 0:41:45.036 --> 0:41:47.956 to stating this version of who I am. What I think, 0:41:47.996 --> 0:41:51.916 what I'm giving is final because we're in process. And 0:41:52.476 --> 0:41:55.876 I feel it's really important for musicians of all ages. 0:41:55.916 --> 0:41:58.956 But I want to say, especially young musicians, to stand 0:41:59.036 --> 0:42:03.596 by the archive of what they give to the world, 0:42:03.756 --> 0:42:08.316 because the archive also teaches about our evolution as creators. 0:42:08.836 --> 0:42:11.276 You know, there's things that I've done that I ooh, 0:42:11.316 --> 0:42:14.436 they're out in the world for every and I cringe, 0:42:14.476 --> 0:42:17.356 you know, and it's like, well, that's part of the 0:42:17.436 --> 0:42:21.676 archive that shows a human in process and evolution, and 0:42:22.796 --> 0:42:25.596 that is that's what is interesting to me. I guess 0:42:25.676 --> 0:42:29.356 about being on this journey of being someone who creates 0:42:29.956 --> 0:42:31.996 that you can well, yep, That's what I was tripping 0:42:32.036 --> 0:42:34.716 on listening to reading, and I really wanted to share 0:42:34.716 --> 0:42:35.196 it forward. 0:42:35.316 --> 0:42:35.996 Now maybe I. 0:42:36.036 --> 0:42:38.476 Completely disagree with that, but there you have it, and 0:42:38.516 --> 0:42:40.676 now I can show the evolution from there to hear. 0:42:40.876 --> 0:42:44.356 Yeah, after this last break, we're back with the rest 0:42:44.396 --> 0:42:53.516 of my conversation with Esperanza Spalding. That's why I really 0:42:54.276 --> 0:42:56.836 also respect like people like well, the people who are 0:42:56.836 --> 0:42:58.716 around like I mean, I guess Miles too, but that's 0:42:58.716 --> 0:43:02.316 more as a state, but like Bob Dylan and Neil Young, 0:43:03.156 --> 0:43:08.436 who like the guys who still actively make records, but 0:43:08.476 --> 0:43:12.876 they also are constantly just going through the archives and 0:43:13.556 --> 0:43:16.356 releasing old sketches of things, like you know, and You're like, 0:43:16.396 --> 0:43:18.916 it's it's really valuable. It's really valuable to hear. 0:43:19.116 --> 0:43:21.836 I think Mitchell too. 0:43:22.236 --> 0:43:25.156 I mean, I think you're kind of talking about big names, 0:43:25.156 --> 0:43:27.676 but I think Jerry Allen was also doing that. I 0:43:27.916 --> 0:43:30.716 just last night was listening to the Marylyn Williams Collective, 0:43:31.436 --> 0:43:35.356 and you know, that sounds so different than Grand River Crossings, 0:43:35.436 --> 0:43:38.836 which sounds so different than the trio work with Paul 0:43:38.876 --> 0:43:41.116 Motion and Charlie Hayden at the Vanguard, which sounds so 0:43:41.196 --> 0:43:46.796 different than timelines. I'm just like, whoa you know, WHOA 0:43:46.836 --> 0:43:53.676 here is a person who's like letting the whatever was 0:43:54.236 --> 0:43:57.676 however the last project metabolized like what it brought, like, 0:43:58.396 --> 0:44:02.316 you know, letting that point to whatever's next. 0:44:02.836 --> 0:44:04.916 It's really possible. 0:44:05.076 --> 0:44:08.756 I mean Wayne Shorter is a person like that. Ess 0:44:08.836 --> 0:44:11.836 Mental a person like that. Tarylyn Carrington is a person 0:44:11.916 --> 0:44:12.236 like that. 0:44:12.516 --> 0:44:14.796 You know. Also the way Milton returned, like there's so 0:44:14.836 --> 0:44:18.196 many there's something there's so many versions of Milt of 0:44:18.676 --> 0:44:20.676 Milton doing his own oh yeah, you know, and I 0:44:20.756 --> 0:44:22.676 just do like on any giving he's like that, I 0:44:22.716 --> 0:44:24.636 love the first record, yeah, and it's like I love 0:44:24.676 --> 0:44:25.476 all those songs. 0:44:25.596 --> 0:44:25.796 Yeah. 0:44:25.836 --> 0:44:27.356 And then it's like sometimes I like I want to 0:44:27.356 --> 0:44:29.396 go just hear it, like the CTI version you know, 0:44:29.596 --> 0:44:33.316 even later or you know that is also there. It 0:44:33.396 --> 0:44:36.996 is incredible. At what point do you feel you finally 0:44:37.356 --> 0:44:40.596 were able to put something into the world that felt 0:44:40.636 --> 0:44:43.876 like this is what I intended to put out. 0:44:45.076 --> 0:44:49.156 I really feel that Twelve Little Spells is what I 0:44:49.196 --> 0:44:55.276 intended to put out. Like I feel like we and 0:44:55.276 --> 0:44:59.876 Emily duplus evolution. Maybe it started with Emily du plus evolution, 0:45:01.876 --> 0:45:08.156 but also at each point of creating or putting the 0:45:08.196 --> 0:45:10.916 records out, like okay, we can really, I mean I 0:45:10.996 --> 0:45:13.156 signed off. I'm like, okay, we can release this, you know, 0:45:14.116 --> 0:45:17.876 so I'll say that, you know, I can stand by 0:45:17.876 --> 0:45:22.076 them all. And I remember the feeling of Emily's Day 0:45:22.076 --> 0:45:26.276 plus Evolution being like, you know, like nobody was gone 0:45:26.316 --> 0:45:30.756 on this one. And also with twelve Little Spells, it 0:45:30.836 --> 0:45:35.756 just felt so protected, you know, like we it felt 0:45:35.796 --> 0:45:40.996 so much about the folks in the room were only 0:45:41.036 --> 0:45:44.876 people who really cared about the music we were making 0:45:45.476 --> 0:45:51.316 and really delivering like the potential, the fullest potential of 0:45:51.356 --> 0:45:53.716 what these creators around this theme and this body of 0:45:53.756 --> 0:45:59.396 work could give. And I want to leave you know, 0:45:59.436 --> 0:46:02.436 the future open to maybe answer that question in ten 0:46:02.516 --> 0:46:04.476 years and be like, oh, actually it was the one 0:46:04.476 --> 0:46:06.156 that you know happened eight years from. 0:46:05.916 --> 0:46:09.556 Today to the May angela point of never see a 0:46:09.596 --> 0:46:12.796 fixed yeah right, yeah, and it could be the one 0:46:12.916 --> 0:46:13.836 so now yeah yeah. 0:46:13.836 --> 0:46:19.636 And also just because to like puncture the potential of 0:46:19.956 --> 0:46:25.076 grandiosity or narcissistem to swell in this conversation, like it's 0:46:25.116 --> 0:46:28.116 also like, yes, I think music is one of the 0:46:28.116 --> 0:46:30.956 most powerful holy forces of Earth, and it's also just music. 0:46:31.036 --> 0:46:33.956 You know what I mean, Like, it's also not that deep, 0:46:34.116 --> 0:46:37.676 Like it's not like we make songs and we play 0:46:37.716 --> 0:46:39.556 them and we put them out in the world, and 0:46:39.596 --> 0:46:42.396 it's like just to be able to do that and 0:46:42.436 --> 0:46:46.876 make a living, do that like good night, We're done here, fantastic, 0:46:46.916 --> 0:46:49.676 everything's working good. You know, let's go plant a garden. 0:46:49.956 --> 0:46:54.276 I also just don't want to get too precious or 0:46:54.316 --> 0:46:56.516 too concerned or. 0:46:56.996 --> 0:46:59.036 I don't know, make it like a bigger deal than 0:46:59.076 --> 0:47:01.476 it needs to be. We're just doing our job. You know, 0:47:01.556 --> 0:47:02.476 this is my job. 0:47:02.676 --> 0:47:05.596 I do this for a living, and I do this 0:47:05.756 --> 0:47:08.516 out of the deep passion in my heart that I 0:47:08.556 --> 0:47:11.836 have for creating and for sounds and for working with people. 0:47:12.436 --> 0:47:17.036 And like the worst thing that we could do some records, 0:47:17.116 --> 0:47:20.196 like oh that's awful. That was all compromised for the 0:47:20.236 --> 0:47:21.276 forces of industry. 0:47:21.476 --> 0:47:25.716 So it's like and right, so what that deep? 0:47:25.796 --> 0:47:28.996 Yeah, it'sody somebody, somebody's out there making the record. You know, 0:47:30.676 --> 0:47:34.196 We're just one little cell in the body of music 0:47:34.236 --> 0:47:37.156 on this earth, and that is such a privilege. So 0:47:37.836 --> 0:47:43.836 I feel like even sometimes younger musicians will have this 0:47:44.036 --> 0:47:47.156 kind of like almost like desperation in their voice, like 0:47:47.556 --> 0:47:49.356 how do you find your voice, like how do you 0:47:49.636 --> 0:47:51.516 how do you get into the industry, and like find 0:47:51.556 --> 0:47:54.916 your voice and do your thing. And I can remember 0:47:55.076 --> 0:47:57.596 that kind of like pressure, that feeling of pressure like 0:47:57.676 --> 0:47:59.756 uh oh, you know, I gotta go do something as 0:47:59.756 --> 0:48:01.676 a grown up now and make this thing I've invested 0:48:01.716 --> 0:48:02.156 in work. 0:48:02.836 --> 0:48:04.356 And I also try to. 0:48:04.356 --> 0:48:08.716 Remind them like, you can't help it, you can't whatever 0:48:08.796 --> 0:48:11.876 the hell you are whatever, even if you just want 0:48:11.876 --> 0:48:13.596 to do Lady Gouggug covers for the rest of your 0:48:13.636 --> 0:48:17.916 life in a club in South Korea and you know, 0:48:18.316 --> 0:48:21.716 or whatever, do Elvis in personation, like whatever, whatever the 0:48:21.716 --> 0:48:26.956 hell your thing is, it's gonna come out. It's gonna beautiful, 0:48:27.036 --> 0:48:30.676 it's gonna be what it is. And the main thing 0:48:30.756 --> 0:48:32.396 is are you enjoying doing it? 0:48:32.916 --> 0:48:34.276 Can you do it? Do you want to do it? 0:48:35.036 --> 0:48:39.036 And just in this life to get to find a 0:48:39.076 --> 0:48:41.156 thing like that, you're winning. 0:48:41.476 --> 0:48:41.676 Yeah. 0:48:41.836 --> 0:48:46.156 So it's kind of like whatever the whatever you can. 0:48:46.196 --> 0:48:48.996 Find at this point in time, that's a thing that 0:48:49.116 --> 0:48:51.316 you like, that you do, that you sound like, even 0:48:51.356 --> 0:48:54.916 if you think you're faking it, great, do that and 0:48:54.956 --> 0:48:57.956 that's great, And then make sure you call your elders, 0:48:58.596 --> 0:49:03.356 help your friends, who have kids, you know, support folks 0:49:03.396 --> 0:49:07.836 who are disenfranchised, pay attention to your local politics, engage. 0:49:08.356 --> 0:49:08.956 You know what I mean. 0:49:09.156 --> 0:49:11.596 It's like kind of like, don't fill your brain with 0:49:11.636 --> 0:49:15.316 all these existential concerns of the arts. Like you're a 0:49:15.436 --> 0:49:18.036 human in a world and this is the job you 0:49:18.076 --> 0:49:19.596 get to do and if. 0:49:19.476 --> 0:49:20.716 You just keep doing, it's gonna work. 0:49:21.516 --> 0:49:24.596 Don't worry, and now make sure you pay attention to 0:49:24.716 --> 0:49:28.996 all the other stuff, because we can get very self absorbed. 0:49:29.836 --> 0:49:32.516 It's amazing though, how you can't just accept it's at 0:49:32.556 --> 0:49:34.956 a young at a tender age. It's hard to just accept, 0:49:35.076 --> 0:49:37.796 like you can know that to be the absolute truth, 0:49:37.836 --> 0:49:40.996 and it's really hard to sometimes accept that, right because 0:49:40.996 --> 0:49:43.476 I can remember similarly the same things, you know what, 0:49:43.716 --> 0:49:46.636 like those feelings, it's very hard to hard and. 0:49:46.596 --> 0:49:50.476 We're being bombarded with the like messages of the hero 0:49:50.716 --> 0:49:54.676 I'm using Lea Penman's phrase, the hero industrial complex, this 0:49:54.796 --> 0:49:57.756 idea of like it doesn't count unless I'm the hero, 0:49:58.116 --> 0:50:01.716 Like it doesn't count unless I am the star, right, 0:50:01.916 --> 0:50:06.036 And that is a very that's that's like that's an 0:50:06.036 --> 0:50:09.476 ominous weight. When you have a gift, you know, or 0:50:09.556 --> 0:50:11.316 you have this thing that you love to do like, oh, 0:50:11.356 --> 0:50:13.436 I love to play piano, and I really like like 0:50:13.676 --> 0:50:15.396 I love soul music and I. 0:50:15.916 --> 0:50:17.156 But we don't. 0:50:17.196 --> 0:50:19.716 We don't have a lot of glorified images of like 0:50:19.756 --> 0:50:23.076 a side person or a happy producer or an a ranger, 0:50:23.116 --> 0:50:25.836 like a person who's film scoring, they're living their best life. 0:50:26.636 --> 0:50:29.356 I feel, particularly, maybe particularly for musicians, this is kind 0:50:29.356 --> 0:50:31.596 of like this pressure of like, oh my god, what 0:50:31.636 --> 0:50:34.316 do I have to do to like make it, you know, 0:50:34.516 --> 0:50:38.036 on top, or like get my esthetics together or whatever. 0:50:39.876 --> 0:50:44.116 And that feels like pressure and concern that can be 0:50:44.196 --> 0:50:48.756 kind of a waste, you know. Yeah, And I just 0:50:48.796 --> 0:50:53.836 wonder about musicians that are pushing themselves past the place 0:50:53.876 --> 0:50:56.356 that they'll actually derive the most pleasure and be able 0:50:56.396 --> 0:50:58.596 to contribute them most because of this kind of pressure 0:50:58.636 --> 0:51:03.396 to be more, do more when and the the also 0:51:03.836 --> 0:51:07.676 when we get the kind of very two dimensional representations 0:51:07.716 --> 0:51:10.156 of the artists that we love so much, they're completely 0:51:10.156 --> 0:51:14.636 decontextualized from their family, their community, their elders, their teachers, 0:51:14.956 --> 0:51:18.676 their students. So it can also be really hard to 0:51:19.196 --> 0:51:23.316 get a sense of, you know, an artists at work 0:51:23.316 --> 0:51:27.796 in their ecosystem, and the music industry has no is 0:51:27.876 --> 0:51:32.316 not interested in your long term wellness. So it's also 0:51:32.356 --> 0:51:36.076 something about maybe what I really mean, what I was 0:51:36.076 --> 0:51:37.956 just being mean, like, don't become a narcissist. I think 0:51:37.956 --> 0:51:41.596 what I really mean is like, actually learning how to 0:51:41.596 --> 0:51:45.316 cultivate one's gift in a in a healthy balance with 0:51:46.316 --> 0:51:51.476 being available to and in accountability to your community is 0:51:51.716 --> 0:51:57.836 actually the most sustainable and uh nourishing, soul nourishing way 0:51:57.876 --> 0:52:00.596 to go about this. And you can't sustain as a 0:52:00.676 --> 0:52:04.716 musician if your soul isn't nourished. So maybe that's that's 0:52:04.716 --> 0:52:05.676 what I'm really trying. 0:52:05.436 --> 0:52:05.876 To speak to. 0:52:06.716 --> 0:52:09.516 You know what's interesting? I mean, you know, you're you're right, 0:52:09.556 --> 0:52:13.436 like there aren't like we I was reading when Benny 0:52:13.436 --> 0:52:18.396 Golson passed away. I found power, Power, Power. I found 0:52:18.396 --> 0:52:23.356 a what do you call it? A an oral history 0:52:23.836 --> 0:52:26.476 interview that he had given maybe in like two thousand 0:52:26.516 --> 0:52:28.756 and two or something, and I was reading through it 0:52:29.276 --> 0:52:34.556 and he was talking about Oliver Nelson going to Hollywood 0:52:35.476 --> 0:52:41.436 to score film and TV. And you know, I mean, 0:52:41.516 --> 0:52:45.556 sadly Oliver, you know, doesn't liver. He passes away in 0:52:45.636 --> 0:52:48.756 They're seven seventy one, seventy two, forty forty one, forty two, 0:52:48.836 --> 0:52:51.316 you know, like, but you think about it, like I 0:52:51.356 --> 0:52:54.356 was thinking about Oliver Nelson, and it's like, here's this 0:52:55.676 --> 0:52:58.196 person with an immense talent that I don't think unless 0:52:58.276 --> 0:53:01.796 you really care about the music that you might not 0:53:01.956 --> 0:53:04.836 know you're not gonna his name is not gonna you know, 0:53:05.516 --> 0:53:08.516 fel like Duke Ellington, you know what I mean. So, 0:53:08.636 --> 0:53:10.636 but it's like, is this guy who like had all 0:53:10.676 --> 0:53:14.316 that talent led a band like and probably had design, 0:53:14.356 --> 0:53:16.516 probably wanted to continue to bleed a band, but it's 0:53:16.556 --> 0:53:19.676 like what was available was to go do this work 0:53:19.716 --> 0:53:23.956 and doing filming TV. And like I think Benny's point 0:53:23.996 --> 0:53:26.996 from remembering correctly was like people kind of looked down 0:53:26.996 --> 0:53:28.116 on it a bit. But then also a lot of 0:53:28.156 --> 0:53:30.236 people are going to him from work too, you know, 0:53:30.516 --> 0:53:32.996 so at some point it's like you kind of just 0:53:34.036 --> 0:53:36.316 you know, you do the work you can where you're 0:53:36.356 --> 0:53:38.556 able to do it. Who cares? 0:53:38.996 --> 0:53:39.236 Well? 0:53:39.956 --> 0:53:43.316 The funny thing is a haha. 0:53:44.596 --> 0:53:48.036 You know, it's uncomfortable to admit or it's uncomfortable to 0:53:48.076 --> 0:53:48.956 broach the subject. 0:53:48.996 --> 0:53:54.316 But there are the strands of desire for validation woven 0:53:54.436 --> 0:53:58.076 into our pursuits of notoriety, right, I mean isn't that 0:53:58.116 --> 0:54:01.916 part of what notoriety is. You have a lot of 0:54:02.876 --> 0:54:06.916 people in your inner circle and outer circle. 0:54:06.916 --> 0:54:10.956 Validating the value of what you do, and I don't 0:54:10.996 --> 0:54:12.756 know what you do with that. That can be a 0:54:12.876 --> 0:54:16.796 very powerful motivating force that gets people practicing or finishing 0:54:16.796 --> 0:54:19.236 that song or getting that heartbreak out into a tune 0:54:19.236 --> 0:54:22.156 that becomes a hit that reaches somebody in the remote 0:54:22.196 --> 0:54:24.436 corner of the world that needed to hear that song 0:54:24.476 --> 0:54:26.756 that made them want to get up that day. You know, 0:54:27.196 --> 0:54:30.276 it's like, it's not to judge the motivation, but it's 0:54:30.316 --> 0:54:34.516 something to check out because it begs the question, like, huh, 0:54:35.396 --> 0:54:38.036 what's going on with the musicians who are not as 0:54:38.076 --> 0:54:43.636 attached to the external validation but are deeply invested in 0:54:43.796 --> 0:54:50.036 the relationship with their music and deeply passionate about finding 0:54:50.636 --> 0:54:55.396 and cultivating and creating and maybe don't see themselves as 0:54:55.436 --> 0:54:57.916 ever having because of how they look, or their stature 0:54:58.036 --> 0:55:01.996 or their class or who knows what, and it changes 0:55:01.996 --> 0:55:07.636 across different decades, But who either are not motivated by 0:55:07.676 --> 0:55:10.636 that potential for validation or don't believe that they have, 0:55:11.236 --> 0:55:15.236 you know, whatever it is to even go achieve that 0:55:15.316 --> 0:55:20.036 validation and instead turn that energy towards their other things, 0:55:20.876 --> 0:55:24.396 and you know, allah the story about Oliver Nelson, and 0:55:24.436 --> 0:55:26.756 really so many I can think of about thirty five 0:55:26.756 --> 0:55:29.636 people just off the top of my head who are 0:55:29.636 --> 0:55:32.796 not interested in that part of it, the external validation 0:55:33.676 --> 0:55:38.076 and or maybe of their own self esteem or you know, 0:55:38.156 --> 0:55:40.196 messages they've gotten from the industry about like oh you 0:55:40.236 --> 0:55:42.916 don't quite fit, you know, let's expected, and how are 0:55:42.916 --> 0:55:47.676 you going to show up? And they have thriving, economically 0:55:47.796 --> 0:55:54.036 viable lives in music, and that's just something to know about, 0:55:54.196 --> 0:55:58.596 you know, it's something to contemplate. And I think for 0:55:58.836 --> 0:56:04.076 artists creating, I don't think we should ever shame our motivations. 0:56:04.396 --> 0:56:04.636 Ever. 0:56:05.356 --> 0:56:08.156 I don't think we should ever like shame or feel 0:56:08.196 --> 0:56:13.036 humiliated about the shadow motivations that maybe get us from 0:56:13.036 --> 0:56:16.476 point A to point B. But that doesn't mean that 0:56:16.596 --> 0:56:20.756 we can't investigate them. Yeah, and once we become aware 0:56:20.796 --> 0:56:22.236 of them, you can. 0:56:22.076 --> 0:56:27.716 Make decisions, informed decisions, informed decisions like ooh, am I am. 0:56:27.756 --> 0:56:30.396 I stand up all night every night hustling. 0:56:30.076 --> 0:56:33.356 On this project because I just want to be seen 0:56:33.396 --> 0:56:35.316 as being able to do or like whatever. 0:56:35.796 --> 0:56:37.316 Maybe is that what I really want to do? Or 0:56:37.316 --> 0:56:38.436 is it for the money or is it for the 0:56:38.916 --> 0:56:40.556 and do I feel do I like that? 0:56:40.636 --> 0:56:40.796 Is that? 0:56:40.956 --> 0:56:43.276 Is that what I want to be driven by or 0:56:43.556 --> 0:56:45.876 invested in? And like there's no wrong answer. 0:56:46.476 --> 0:56:48.316 You want to be money In the moment, I got it. 0:56:48.956 --> 0:56:51.396 Sometimes I'll tell. 0:56:51.276 --> 0:56:52.396 You right here, right now. 0:56:52.876 --> 0:56:55.036 The only reason that not the only reason, but the 0:56:55.076 --> 0:57:00.356 main reason that I propelled myself forward to go like 0:57:00.516 --> 0:57:03.596 accept this scholarship at Berkeley and moved to Boston. I 0:57:03.636 --> 0:57:06.036 was very happy in Portland is because somebody had a 0:57:06.036 --> 0:57:10.236 crush on went to MIT and I was like, oh, well, 0:57:10.236 --> 0:57:12.676 I'll be in Boston, like I'll be closer, like maybe 0:57:13.156 --> 0:57:15.676 you know, like worked at this whole fantasy in my mind, 0:57:16.436 --> 0:57:19.556 and it's like, is that a petty I was seventeen 0:57:19.636 --> 0:57:24.556 years old, you know, but hey, that motive, you. 0:57:24.516 --> 0:57:25.916 Know, the passion got me there. 0:57:26.036 --> 0:57:26.276 Yeah. 0:57:26.316 --> 0:57:29.876 I never saw the person again, but I was in 0:57:29.876 --> 0:57:34.956 Boston and my life blossomed. So it's just something about 0:57:35.156 --> 0:57:38.156 the exercise of investigating the motives and then, like you said, 0:57:38.156 --> 0:57:40.236 making informed decisions. 0:57:40.636 --> 0:57:44.436 And it's you know, when I think about how messed. 0:57:44.196 --> 0:57:49.716 Up and you know, sick and egotistical and womanizing and 0:57:49.756 --> 0:57:50.676 abusing some of. 0:57:50.636 --> 0:57:53.276 My favorite musicians were. 0:57:53.876 --> 0:57:56.476 It's like, wow, you know, medicine and beauty can really 0:57:56.476 --> 0:57:57.836 come out of anywhere. 0:57:57.876 --> 0:58:01.116 How do you? Yeah, how have you? How do you 0:58:01.116 --> 0:58:03.516 square that? I guess it just managed that you don't 0:58:03.596 --> 0:58:04.676 you do well? 0:58:04.676 --> 0:58:07.836 We're more than I think. 0:58:07.996 --> 0:58:11.756 We're all more than our shadows, We're all more than 0:58:11.796 --> 0:58:15.756 our wounds, we're all more than our egos, and we're all, 0:58:16.156 --> 0:58:17.236 let me not say more. 0:58:18.076 --> 0:58:20.196 We have a lot of qualities, we have a lot 0:58:20.236 --> 0:58:21.396 of things. 0:58:21.156 --> 0:58:26.396 To give, and I don't I don't believe that, you know, 0:58:26.676 --> 0:58:32.076 a person's folly or humanness is grounds for dismissing the 0:58:32.116 --> 0:58:36.076 totality of their contribution. So a person who's abused women, 0:58:36.556 --> 0:58:42.116 who has you know, betrayed people's trusts or been engaged 0:58:42.116 --> 0:58:45.116 in womanizing behavior, if they can make, if they've made 0:58:45.116 --> 0:58:49.956 some medicine that helps me identify like my gifts and 0:58:49.996 --> 0:58:52.876 nourishes me and helps me heal and move forward in 0:58:52.916 --> 0:58:54.156 my life, I'm. 0:58:53.956 --> 0:58:56.916 Going to use those gifts. I'm going to use them wholeheartedly. 0:58:59.356 --> 0:59:02.516 I might investigate some of their you know, guidance or 0:59:02.556 --> 0:59:04.916 you know, testimony about what it is to be a humanist. Well, 0:59:04.956 --> 0:59:06.356 I might look at it with like a little grade 0:59:06.356 --> 0:59:10.796 of assault, we be like, okay, but yeah, I think, 0:59:12.356 --> 0:59:17.916 you know, allowing that immensity of complexity and contradiction that's 0:59:17.956 --> 0:59:22.276 inherent in being a human is an important thread of 0:59:22.316 --> 0:59:27.116 like abolitionist work too, And I really like, I couldn't 0:59:27.116 --> 0:59:29.836 call myself an abolitionist because I'm not doing the work 0:59:29.876 --> 0:59:34.956 actively in community. But oh I'm wearing my Innocence Project sweatshirt, 0:59:35.316 --> 0:59:37.956 which is definitely a part of abolition work. But I 0:59:37.996 --> 0:59:41.876 feel abolition and the work of abolition asks all of 0:59:41.956 --> 0:59:47.396 us to embrace the totality of our humanity and know 0:59:47.516 --> 0:59:51.116 that we are all in process and know that none 0:59:51.196 --> 0:59:54.996 of us are only the worst things that we've done 0:59:55.276 --> 0:59:57.876 are the most harmful things that we've done. Yeah. So 0:59:57.956 --> 1:00:01.716 so almost like the same way that dimensions of abolition 1:00:01.996 --> 1:00:05.836 ask that we still consider folks who have done heinous 1:00:05.916 --> 1:00:09.396 things members of our community that we're responsible for. Kind 1:00:09.396 --> 1:00:11.716 of like you practice that internally with the members of 1:00:11.756 --> 1:00:16.156 your internal community, you know, or the the internal community 1:00:15.716 --> 1:00:20.196 of the artists or crafts people or creators or philosophers 1:00:20.276 --> 1:00:22.716 or whoever whose work is nourishing you. You know, it's 1:00:22.716 --> 1:00:25.356 almost like by taking in their work, they become a 1:00:25.356 --> 1:00:26.716 part of your community. 1:00:27.196 --> 1:00:29.796 And I don't know in ways that are instructive too, 1:00:29.836 --> 1:00:31.956 Like I feel like we have sometimes when you cast 1:00:31.996 --> 1:00:37.036 away or write off people who have done even heinous things, 1:00:37.076 --> 1:00:40.356 let alone just maybe morally a little off putting, like 1:00:41.396 --> 1:00:46.116 you're almost like not almost, Sometimes I feel like it's 1:00:46.236 --> 1:00:50.836 you're you're then casting You can learn as much from 1:00:50.916 --> 1:00:52.956 the negative examples as the positive, and so it's like 1:00:52.996 --> 1:00:57.396 someone's acknowledging that, Wow, maybe I'm also capable of those things. 1:00:57.436 --> 1:00:59.796 Keeping those people as a part of your community, not 1:00:59.836 --> 1:01:01.676 completely right in the moth, allows you to realize that 1:01:02.716 --> 1:01:05.956 we're all sort of capable of both really amazing things 1:01:05.956 --> 1:01:08.916 and really maybe also awful things. And how you then 1:01:08.956 --> 1:01:12.916 make how can I actually make decisions to not do 1:01:13.076 --> 1:01:15.276 that thing, you know, and maybe do more of that thing? 1:01:15.596 --> 1:01:16.156 Yes, and. 1:01:18.436 --> 1:01:22.436 I feel like the tricky part, Yes, I agree with that, 1:01:22.556 --> 1:01:26.276 and I would add to it. You know, the practice 1:01:26.316 --> 1:01:32.276 of keeping like tending community which includes humans who have 1:01:32.316 --> 1:01:34.916 done things you don't agree with, isn't just for what 1:01:35.076 --> 1:01:40.396 the benefit can have to you. It also says something about, 1:01:42.476 --> 1:01:46.596 like I'm actually willing to invest in the keeping of 1:01:46.836 --> 1:01:48.916 another human because they're another human. 1:01:49.316 --> 1:01:50.556 You know that there's not a. 1:01:50.516 --> 1:01:55.516 Contingency on a person's right to be a member of community. 1:01:55.796 --> 1:02:02.076 And I also think about the fear that maybe that 1:02:02.236 --> 1:02:09.036 the subconscious fear that we have around tending really complex 1:02:09.796 --> 1:02:15.036 conflict and even what seems like antagonism because most of 1:02:15.116 --> 1:02:18.756 us have never actually been through the cycle, like we 1:02:18.796 --> 1:02:20.836 don't know what's on the other side of saying Like 1:02:20.876 --> 1:02:24.236 I think about, you know, what's been happening with what 1:02:24.276 --> 1:02:26.716 was happening a lot in a particular season in the 1:02:26.796 --> 1:02:29.836 jazz world of these educators or band leaders. It coming 1:02:29.916 --> 1:02:33.916 out that they had done these like really icky, not 1:02:34.076 --> 1:02:39.876 okay violating actions, you know, towards students, like sexually inappropriate behavior. 1:02:40.276 --> 1:02:42.836 And we're talking, yeah, in the last I was like 1:02:42.956 --> 1:02:45.716 last decade, and this happened with a dear mentor of 1:02:45.716 --> 1:02:51.276 mine in Portland, and what I saw happening was this 1:02:51.796 --> 1:02:55.996 iron curtain or ironwalk coming down. It's like, oh my god, 1:02:56.196 --> 1:02:58.556 we don't know, we actually don't know how to deal 1:02:58.556 --> 1:03:01.716 with this. We actually don't know what reconciliation and community 1:03:01.756 --> 1:03:05.716 could look like. We don't know what accountability and repair 1:03:06.116 --> 1:03:08.196 could look like. We actually we have we have so 1:03:08.396 --> 1:03:11.716 little idea that the only option on the plate is 1:03:11.756 --> 1:03:16.356 like you have to go like by you don't exist anymore. 1:03:16.716 --> 1:03:19.196 It's like that, It's like whatever. 1:03:19.036 --> 1:03:22.756 Other connections or contributions up to that point, it was 1:03:22.796 --> 1:03:24.676 just like you're out. 1:03:25.596 --> 1:03:26.196 And that. 1:03:27.836 --> 1:03:31.196 I agree, It doesn't matter what I think, but I'll 1:03:31.236 --> 1:03:33.156 say just my little two cents in at all is 1:03:33.196 --> 1:03:37.436 like protecting people who have been violated absolutely prior to 1:03:37.516 --> 1:03:42.236 number one. And what I feel that whole response exposes 1:03:42.516 --> 1:03:47.596 is how inequipped we are actually as humans in quote 1:03:47.676 --> 1:03:50.836 unquote community, whether that community is an institution or a 1:03:50.876 --> 1:03:54.476 field like jazz music, to like stay with the trouble, 1:03:55.276 --> 1:03:57.636 to stay with the trouble and go like, actually, what 1:03:57.716 --> 1:03:59.756 if we don't just get rid of this person? Like 1:04:00.276 --> 1:04:07.316 what is protection and repair and accountability and responsibility actually 1:04:07.316 --> 1:04:10.796 look like? And that like stew of questions feels like 1:04:11.036 --> 1:04:13.636 what so scary that you're just like, ah, you know, 1:04:14.076 --> 1:04:17.516 it's like get out. I can't. And I I wish 1:04:17.876 --> 1:04:22.556 I hope for me and and all humans and. 1:04:22.556 --> 1:04:27.556 Folks who have been through all sides of you know, harm. 1:04:27.356 --> 1:04:31.676 I wish for us more robust palette of options, you 1:04:31.716 --> 1:04:36.116 know that we can utilize when harms happen, because we 1:04:36.196 --> 1:04:41.716 are gonna harm each other that's right. We're we're really 1:04:41.796 --> 1:04:44.316 messed up, you know, most of us are really just 1:04:44.396 --> 1:04:47.036 by the time you get to the point of leaving. 1:04:46.796 --> 1:04:48.716 Your house and seeing another person, you already messed up. 1:04:49.396 --> 1:04:57.116 So I mean important too, It's just that's here we are, 1:04:57.236 --> 1:05:01.276 you know. So yeah, I'll just add that I wish 1:05:01.276 --> 1:05:03.516 that for my community and musicians. I wish that for 1:05:03.596 --> 1:05:05.716 my community, my family, and the community of folks I 1:05:05.716 --> 1:05:08.116 work with in Portland, and it really just anywhere there's 1:05:08.196 --> 1:05:10.476 humans who have the POTENTI the harm. I wish for 1:05:10.556 --> 1:05:12.956 us to have a more robust, like I said, pallette 1:05:12.956 --> 1:05:15.756 of tools and skills, and there are a lot of 1:05:15.796 --> 1:05:20.316 people who are tirelessly cultivating those practices, you know. 1:05:21.516 --> 1:05:23.636 So it's not like we're in a void. They're there. 1:05:23.796 --> 1:05:24.236 It just. 1:05:25.716 --> 1:05:28.676 The images of car serial response is what we see 1:05:28.676 --> 1:05:31.756 the most often. So I think the knee jerk reaction 1:05:31.876 --> 1:05:32.476 is to go to that. 1:05:33.196 --> 1:05:33.996 It's our default. 1:05:34.236 --> 1:05:35.116 Yeah, it's a default. 1:05:37.076 --> 1:05:39.116 So much more I want to talk about, but I 1:05:39.156 --> 1:05:42.236 don't do it another time. Thanks so much for making 1:05:42.236 --> 1:05:47.076 the time. We put links in the episode description to 1:05:47.156 --> 1:05:51.076 Milton Esperanza's collaborative album and also the two playlists featuring 1:05:51.116 --> 1:05:54.836 some of our favorites from both Milton Nastrumento and Esperanzis 1:05:54.836 --> 1:05:58.156 Spaulding and again. To see the video version of this episode, 1:05:58.196 --> 1:06:01.916 visit YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast and be 1:06:01.956 --> 1:06:04.756 sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. 1:06:05.396 --> 1:06:08.556 You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken 1:06:08.596 --> 1:06:11.716 Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing 1:06:11.756 --> 1:06:15.036 help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is 1:06:15.076 --> 1:06:19.316 Ben Holliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. 1:06:19.716 --> 1:06:22.516 If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider 1:06:22.556 --> 1:06:26.916 subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription 1:06:26.996 --> 1:06:29.756 that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four 1:06:29.916 --> 1:06:33.036 ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple 1:06:33.076 --> 1:06:36.876 podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember 1:06:36.876 --> 1:06:39.476 to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. 1:06:39.636 --> 1:06:42.396 Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.