1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:22,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin. A month ago at the Grammys, Alicia Keys gave 2 00:00:22,716 --> 00:00:26,516 Speaker 1: a beautiful speech while accepting the Global Impact Award. Part 3 00:00:26,556 --> 00:00:29,076 Speaker 1: of her speech was dedicated to the women producers who 4 00:00:29,116 --> 00:00:32,996 Speaker 1: power the industry, women like Patrice Russian, Missy Elliott, Linda Perry, 5 00:00:32,996 --> 00:00:35,796 Speaker 1: and others. This was top of mind for me when 6 00:00:35,796 --> 00:00:37,956 Speaker 1: I sat down with Esperanza's faulding at the Blue Milk 7 00:00:37,996 --> 00:00:39,876 Speaker 1: Club in New York, where she was in the middle 8 00:00:39,916 --> 00:00:42,836 Speaker 1: of a residency, not only because she just produced a 9 00:00:42,876 --> 00:00:47,316 Speaker 1: gorgeous new collaborative album by the unheralded Brazilian genius Milton Ostumento. 10 00:00:47,876 --> 00:00:52,076 Speaker 1: Na'turally called Milton and Esperanza, but she's self produced just 11 00:00:52,116 --> 00:00:54,996 Speaker 1: about all of her own projects from the very beginning. 12 00:00:55,676 --> 00:00:58,116 Speaker 1: Esperanza and I talk about why she's been producing herself 13 00:00:58,116 --> 00:01:00,276 Speaker 1: from the jump in this episode, what it's been like 14 00:01:00,356 --> 00:01:03,716 Speaker 1: working so closely with master mentors like Milton Nostrumento, but 15 00:01:03,796 --> 00:01:07,356 Speaker 1: also Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock, and Espernza tells me 16 00:01:07,396 --> 00:01:10,356 Speaker 1: what she views as the rocky begins and in her career. 17 00:01:13,156 --> 00:01:23,076 Speaker 1: This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. If you'd 18 00:01:23,076 --> 00:01:25,476 Speaker 1: like to watch the video version of today's episode, visit 19 00:01:25,516 --> 00:01:29,116 Speaker 1: our YouTube page, YouTube dot com slash Broken Record podcast. 20 00:01:30,036 --> 00:01:32,676 Speaker 1: Here's my conversation with Esperanza Spaulding. 21 00:01:34,716 --> 00:01:36,916 Speaker 2: He's just such a fan girl for He's not even 22 00:01:36,916 --> 00:01:39,676 Speaker 2: gonna he's not gonna own it, like he's cool, he's cool. 23 00:01:39,916 --> 00:01:41,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's probably playing it cool. 24 00:01:41,676 --> 00:01:43,956 Speaker 2: I think so because he knows they're gonna roast him 25 00:01:43,956 --> 00:01:44,556 Speaker 2: about it all the time. 26 00:01:44,596 --> 00:01:48,316 Speaker 1: That's so funny. Cool. Yeah. No, but I'm happy. Uh, 27 00:01:49,156 --> 00:01:51,276 Speaker 1: I'm happy this work out to do too though, because yeah, 28 00:01:51,316 --> 00:01:54,276 Speaker 1: I'm like, uh. As soon as the album got announced, 29 00:01:54,316 --> 00:01:56,076 Speaker 1: I was like, you gotta be kidding me. This is 30 00:01:56,156 --> 00:01:58,276 Speaker 1: the most amazing thing I've ever heard. 31 00:01:58,356 --> 00:02:01,436 Speaker 2: That's what I also felt, this is the most crazy 32 00:02:01,436 --> 00:02:04,316 Speaker 2: thing that I've ever heard. When when his son asked 33 00:02:04,316 --> 00:02:07,756 Speaker 2: me to produce it, So yeah, is that. 34 00:02:07,916 --> 00:02:11,196 Speaker 1: The origin of the visit. So it's going to be 35 00:02:11,236 --> 00:02:13,116 Speaker 1: more you producing a Milton. 36 00:02:13,596 --> 00:02:18,036 Speaker 2: Well when the in the same moment that his son 37 00:02:18,116 --> 00:02:19,636 Speaker 2: was like, oh you should produce this record, he said 38 00:02:19,676 --> 00:02:23,196 Speaker 2: it should be Milton and Esperanza. He kind of he 39 00:02:23,276 --> 00:02:26,116 Speaker 2: framed it as like, oh, it'll be a duo project. 40 00:02:26,236 --> 00:02:28,316 Speaker 2: You know, you and him should do this project together 41 00:02:28,356 --> 00:02:33,996 Speaker 2: and you produce it. And I mean I when you 42 00:02:34,076 --> 00:02:39,196 Speaker 2: revere somebody's work that much, it can almost it felt 43 00:02:39,196 --> 00:02:45,196 Speaker 2: hard to almost like insert myself into the like pallette 44 00:02:45,196 --> 00:02:50,716 Speaker 2: of sounds. You know, maybe I felt an initial temptation 45 00:02:50,876 --> 00:02:52,876 Speaker 2: as a producer. It's just kind of like I just 46 00:02:52,916 --> 00:02:56,396 Speaker 2: want to bring stuff together and just you know, bask 47 00:02:56,556 --> 00:03:00,036 Speaker 2: in the glory of your songs, in your sound. He 48 00:03:01,396 --> 00:03:03,876 Speaker 2: Milton and his son were like, no, no, you know, 49 00:03:03,916 --> 00:03:06,236 Speaker 2: we go do it together. It's gotta be it's gotta 50 00:03:06,236 --> 00:03:08,236 Speaker 2: be your stuff too. It's got to be what you 51 00:03:08,276 --> 00:03:13,396 Speaker 2: want and that so that that actually made it scarier, 52 00:03:13,556 --> 00:03:18,476 Speaker 2: I think, because ooh, it's kind of like, hmm, can 53 00:03:18,516 --> 00:03:20,876 Speaker 2: you it's almost like a challenge to the to the 54 00:03:20,916 --> 00:03:24,156 Speaker 2: mentee or the younger person, like can you stand by 55 00:03:24,316 --> 00:03:27,916 Speaker 2: what you've developed at this point in your musical life, 56 00:03:28,196 --> 00:03:32,276 Speaker 2: you know, and consider it a contribution to the same 57 00:03:32,476 --> 00:03:35,876 Speaker 2: global cannon of music as your you know, mentor. 58 00:03:36,636 --> 00:03:40,316 Speaker 3: And because that's that felt like the that feels. 59 00:03:40,076 --> 00:03:42,756 Speaker 2: Like it's always the invitation with every next generation, like 60 00:03:43,356 --> 00:03:46,996 Speaker 2: you can't just keep you know, revering and bowing to 61 00:03:47,196 --> 00:03:50,196 Speaker 2: and like, oh, you know, holding on this like silver 62 00:03:50,516 --> 00:03:51,756 Speaker 2: holy platter. 63 00:03:51,836 --> 00:03:53,716 Speaker 3: I don't know, the works are the ones. 64 00:03:53,516 --> 00:03:56,236 Speaker 2: Before you like you have to sit in and live 65 00:03:56,276 --> 00:04:00,076 Speaker 2: in and find out about what you've made inspired by them. 66 00:04:00,236 --> 00:04:02,836 Speaker 1: You know, it was initially just maybe so to be 67 00:04:02,996 --> 00:04:05,356 Speaker 1: just you producing a Milton record, but then it's sort 68 00:04:05,356 --> 00:04:06,796 Speaker 1: of no, it. 69 00:04:06,676 --> 00:04:10,316 Speaker 2: Was he always his son always framed it as you 70 00:04:10,356 --> 00:04:12,676 Speaker 2: produced a record, and it's going to be you and him. 71 00:04:13,276 --> 00:04:16,276 Speaker 3: I just found that scary, you know. 72 00:04:16,316 --> 00:04:18,436 Speaker 2: As a conceit of like, oh, it's going to be 73 00:04:18,476 --> 00:04:21,676 Speaker 2: both of our music or both of our kind of 74 00:04:23,916 --> 00:04:28,156 Speaker 2: you know, esthetic voice or presence on the album. I 75 00:04:28,196 --> 00:04:33,076 Speaker 2: felt intimidating as a conceit as a producer, and also 76 00:04:33,156 --> 00:04:36,676 Speaker 2: ass like a person who's so inspired by him and 77 00:04:36,716 --> 00:04:40,036 Speaker 2: feel so affected by his body at work, you know. 78 00:04:40,356 --> 00:04:44,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you collaborated also very closely with Wayne 79 00:04:44,796 --> 00:04:47,916 Speaker 1: Shorter with the albums dedicated to Did It Feel? I mean, 80 00:04:48,436 --> 00:04:51,636 Speaker 1: I guess and are you are you just not used 81 00:04:51,636 --> 00:04:55,556 Speaker 1: to are you not yet used to working so closely 82 00:04:55,556 --> 00:04:57,756 Speaker 1: alongside your your hero or is it just never Is 83 00:04:57,796 --> 00:05:00,756 Speaker 1: that something you just never grow accustomed to when you 84 00:05:00,756 --> 00:05:01,756 Speaker 1: revere people When. 85 00:05:01,916 --> 00:05:05,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, when you put it like that, it 86 00:05:05,396 --> 00:05:08,956 Speaker 2: sounds like there's just this long line of people a 87 00:05:09,196 --> 00:05:12,116 Speaker 2: on the level of Wayne and Milton that like you 88 00:05:12,196 --> 00:05:14,596 Speaker 2: could go, you know, like, oh, and the next. 89 00:05:14,356 --> 00:05:18,836 Speaker 3: You'll go work with. To me, those two people are 90 00:05:18,876 --> 00:05:20,756 Speaker 3: like my number one and number two. 91 00:05:21,036 --> 00:05:24,996 Speaker 2: It's not in any hierarchy of order, but really in 92 00:05:25,076 --> 00:05:31,356 Speaker 2: the uh in the history of music that's affected me 93 00:05:31,876 --> 00:05:37,036 Speaker 2: that I've loved most deeply and studied the deepest. Wayne 94 00:05:37,116 --> 00:05:42,196 Speaker 2: and Milton are it, you know, So this weird kind 95 00:05:42,196 --> 00:05:49,076 Speaker 2: of like timing, I guess of working so closely with 96 00:05:49,156 --> 00:05:53,916 Speaker 2: Wayne for a decade, approximately a decade on this opera project, 97 00:05:54,796 --> 00:06:00,676 Speaker 2: and then in the year that Wayne passes this project 98 00:06:00,756 --> 00:06:03,436 Speaker 2: with Milton coming up that I don't know what to 99 00:06:03,476 --> 00:06:06,996 Speaker 2: say about that, even I think that's the first time 100 00:06:07,036 --> 00:06:10,076 Speaker 2: I maybe said that sequence of events out loud. 101 00:06:10,156 --> 00:06:12,076 Speaker 3: And I don't know what to do with that. 102 00:06:12,116 --> 00:06:15,076 Speaker 2: I don't even know how to process that, because you know, 103 00:06:15,156 --> 00:06:17,436 Speaker 2: I know these humans. You know, they are people that 104 00:06:17,476 --> 00:06:20,836 Speaker 2: I love and revere as as folks. You know, people 105 00:06:20,836 --> 00:06:22,876 Speaker 2: that I know that I talk to and call and know. 106 00:06:23,516 --> 00:06:28,836 Speaker 2: And also they are the two of the profoundest musicians 107 00:06:28,876 --> 00:06:34,436 Speaker 2: to ever walk the earth, just period, and and the like, 108 00:06:34,516 --> 00:06:39,556 Speaker 2: the circumstances that conspired for me to even know them 109 00:06:39,956 --> 00:06:43,876 Speaker 2: and to even meet them connect with them, and then 110 00:06:43,876 --> 00:06:49,196 Speaker 2: get through. These projects are just ridiculous, like it's it's unbelievable. 111 00:06:50,916 --> 00:06:54,196 Speaker 2: So all that to say, no, I'm not accustomed to 112 00:06:54,396 --> 00:06:57,596 Speaker 2: working with people like Wayne Shorter and Milton because there 113 00:06:57,596 --> 00:06:59,556 Speaker 2: aren't people like Wayne Shorter and Milkon. They are both 114 00:06:59,596 --> 00:07:05,076 Speaker 2: so singular, and yeah, I getting to know both of 115 00:07:05,076 --> 00:07:07,356 Speaker 2: them in the different ways and the different journeys that 116 00:07:07,396 --> 00:07:09,716 Speaker 2: brought me to both of them have have just been 117 00:07:09,756 --> 00:07:12,396 Speaker 2: miracles of my life, you know what I meant. And 118 00:07:12,396 --> 00:07:16,596 Speaker 2: when the opportunities opened, or the invitations really i'll say, 119 00:07:16,996 --> 00:07:20,196 Speaker 2: came for me to work with them, I just said yes, 120 00:07:21,196 --> 00:07:22,116 Speaker 2: what not. 121 00:07:22,036 --> 00:07:24,196 Speaker 3: Really asking like am I am I ready for this? 122 00:07:24,636 --> 00:07:25,676 Speaker 3: Am I equipped to do this? 123 00:07:25,756 --> 00:07:29,836 Speaker 2: I said yes? Because I love them? You know, how 124 00:07:29,876 --> 00:07:32,196 Speaker 2: could you say no? And that's what I can say 125 00:07:32,196 --> 00:07:36,356 Speaker 2: about that. So yeah, also with also, I don't want 126 00:07:36,356 --> 00:07:39,636 Speaker 2: to like conflate the two of them because working with 127 00:07:39,676 --> 00:07:44,436 Speaker 2: them with their own very distinct journeys and projects and pretexts. 128 00:07:45,316 --> 00:07:50,636 Speaker 2: But it's really something. So it's like a. 129 00:07:50,316 --> 00:07:51,716 Speaker 3: Perpetual kind of. 130 00:07:53,756 --> 00:07:57,996 Speaker 2: Sticks boob like dual state of existence where you're like, okay, 131 00:07:58,196 --> 00:07:59,796 Speaker 2: this this person in front of me, we got. 132 00:07:59,636 --> 00:08:01,516 Speaker 3: This work to do. We're just trying to figure out 133 00:08:01,556 --> 00:08:03,876 Speaker 3: the key for this song or like that, you know, whatever. 134 00:08:03,636 --> 00:08:05,276 Speaker 2: Is the detail in front of you, and then the 135 00:08:05,316 --> 00:08:07,556 Speaker 2: other part of you is like, oh my god, this 136 00:08:07,676 --> 00:08:12,156 Speaker 2: is Milton. Not to mental, you know, just trying to 137 00:08:12,196 --> 00:08:14,956 Speaker 2: actually stay present and not swoon and like faint at 138 00:08:15,036 --> 00:08:17,836 Speaker 2: the immensity of your hero sitting in the room with you. 139 00:08:17,836 --> 00:08:21,756 Speaker 1: You know, so I imagine the like focusing on the 140 00:08:21,836 --> 00:08:25,156 Speaker 1: details and just the task at hand is definitely the 141 00:08:25,916 --> 00:08:29,396 Speaker 1: way to just get your mind out of the fawning 142 00:08:29,796 --> 00:08:30,916 Speaker 1: and the yes. 143 00:08:31,916 --> 00:08:32,916 Speaker 3: One step at the time. 144 00:08:33,316 --> 00:08:37,596 Speaker 2: And also, I mean, you know, since we're talking about 145 00:08:37,596 --> 00:08:43,716 Speaker 2: the record with Milton, Milton is a very kind and 146 00:08:45,156 --> 00:08:49,716 Speaker 2: generous person. You know, he makes it easy for you 147 00:08:49,796 --> 00:08:52,116 Speaker 2: to be around him, like if he likes you, if 148 00:08:52,156 --> 00:08:55,276 Speaker 2: he's messing with you. He makes it easy for you 149 00:08:55,356 --> 00:08:58,556 Speaker 2: to just be in space. You know, he's telling stories. 150 00:08:58,756 --> 00:09:01,676 Speaker 2: He's he's telling them like something will happen with the 151 00:09:01,676 --> 00:09:03,556 Speaker 2: song or in the room that reminds him of a story, 152 00:09:03,556 --> 00:09:05,556 Speaker 2: and then he'll tell you a story and make sure 153 00:09:05,596 --> 00:09:09,836 Speaker 2: you understand, you know, the punchline. And so felt it 154 00:09:09,876 --> 00:09:13,316 Speaker 2: felt very like you know, familial to be in the 155 00:09:13,356 --> 00:09:16,476 Speaker 2: space and create and and the we had work to 156 00:09:16,516 --> 00:09:19,636 Speaker 2: do you know what I mean. Like, he's a person 157 00:09:19,676 --> 00:09:24,836 Speaker 2: who is very specific about what he's put into his 158 00:09:24,956 --> 00:09:28,156 Speaker 2: songs and why, you know, down to like the voicing 159 00:09:28,156 --> 00:09:31,876 Speaker 2: of a chord. And you know, here I was saying like, oh, 160 00:09:31,916 --> 00:09:34,196 Speaker 2: I'm gonna, you know, re harmonize some things, like do 161 00:09:34,236 --> 00:09:36,156 Speaker 2: these little arrangements and this and that, and. 162 00:09:36,716 --> 00:09:39,836 Speaker 3: He was cool a lot of the stuff that I propose, 163 00:09:40,276 --> 00:09:41,716 Speaker 3: and he. 164 00:09:41,636 --> 00:09:44,516 Speaker 2: Would get so specifical like oh no, wait, wait, wait, no, 165 00:09:44,716 --> 00:09:49,556 Speaker 2: that chord has to be that those notes, because it 166 00:09:49,636 --> 00:09:53,636 Speaker 2: really felt like there's like a poetry to how he puts. 167 00:09:53,436 --> 00:09:54,356 Speaker 3: The songs together. 168 00:09:55,396 --> 00:09:57,596 Speaker 2: And because I'm not the poet, I don't know why 169 00:09:57,716 --> 00:10:00,156 Speaker 2: he put that chord there instead of one that maybe 170 00:10:00,196 --> 00:10:03,556 Speaker 2: sounds similar, but he does. And so it was it 171 00:10:03,596 --> 00:10:06,796 Speaker 2: was deep to learn about that specificity of his craft 172 00:10:06,876 --> 00:10:08,836 Speaker 2: that he's like, no, this, this chord has to be 173 00:10:08,916 --> 00:10:11,316 Speaker 2: right because it's doing something, you know, in the logic 174 00:10:11,396 --> 00:10:14,276 Speaker 2: of the whole thing. And that was like a great 175 00:10:14,676 --> 00:10:18,676 Speaker 2: you know lesson too of that that like kind of 176 00:10:18,716 --> 00:10:21,636 Speaker 2: standing up for the specifics and then also being flexible 177 00:10:21,996 --> 00:10:24,476 Speaker 2: to the new voice of somebody else who's hearing something 178 00:10:24,516 --> 00:10:25,156 Speaker 2: new with what you. 179 00:10:25,156 --> 00:10:27,756 Speaker 1: Made there is I mean it's it's fascinating to hear 180 00:10:27,796 --> 00:10:30,716 Speaker 1: that there's these certain details that he feels and need 181 00:10:30,756 --> 00:10:32,676 Speaker 1: to be there because he has such a I don't 182 00:10:32,716 --> 00:10:35,916 Speaker 1: even know how to I wouldn't know how to describe 183 00:10:35,916 --> 00:10:39,196 Speaker 1: his music other than that, you know, and there is 184 00:10:40,476 --> 00:10:42,716 Speaker 1: Maybe it's just because they collaborated and I conflate them 185 00:10:42,716 --> 00:10:46,116 Speaker 1: in my mind, but Wayne and Milton both have this 186 00:10:47,516 --> 00:10:51,156 Speaker 1: to me ineffable quality to the music that's just so 187 00:10:51,436 --> 00:10:54,556 Speaker 1: beautiful and so you know, just to hear that you're 188 00:10:54,596 --> 00:10:57,396 Speaker 1: there and there are these sort of key Yeah, there's 189 00:10:57,476 --> 00:10:59,316 Speaker 1: these things that are key to him and key to 190 00:10:59,396 --> 00:11:01,396 Speaker 1: what he does. I mean, do you feel like you 191 00:11:01,636 --> 00:11:03,676 Speaker 1: understand those things better now? 192 00:11:03,836 --> 00:11:04,076 Speaker 3: Oh? 193 00:11:04,236 --> 00:11:04,476 Speaker 2: Boy? 194 00:11:07,116 --> 00:11:12,556 Speaker 3: What I can? I I don't know if it's understand but. 195 00:11:13,756 --> 00:11:19,236 Speaker 2: I maybe feel the his archetype as a creator more 196 00:11:19,276 --> 00:11:24,276 Speaker 2: as a poet than before. I mean, I remember asking 197 00:11:24,356 --> 00:11:28,596 Speaker 2: him once about his songwriting process. I think I was 198 00:11:28,596 --> 00:11:33,116 Speaker 2: swooning over some lyrics and it's like you know how, but. 199 00:11:33,076 --> 00:11:35,436 Speaker 3: Like how did you do that? 200 00:11:36,236 --> 00:11:40,196 Speaker 2: It was some image in a lyric, like did you 201 00:11:40,236 --> 00:11:43,236 Speaker 2: did you see that image first and then write it? 202 00:11:43,356 --> 00:11:43,436 Speaker 1: Like? 203 00:11:43,636 --> 00:11:46,236 Speaker 3: How how did you you know? What? 204 00:11:46,276 --> 00:11:46,356 Speaker 1: Was? 205 00:11:46,476 --> 00:11:49,196 Speaker 3: What was that process? I think I was asking more 206 00:11:49,236 --> 00:11:51,196 Speaker 3: about like what was the creative process? 207 00:11:51,236 --> 00:11:53,396 Speaker 2: You know, did you sketch it? Was it somebody else's 208 00:11:53,396 --> 00:11:55,636 Speaker 2: idea or a story you had in mind, or you know, 209 00:11:55,756 --> 00:11:58,716 Speaker 2: like how did you craft it? And he just said, 210 00:11:59,276 --> 00:12:03,636 Speaker 2: I'm a poet, you know, that's that's what I do, 211 00:12:03,916 --> 00:12:09,076 Speaker 2: you know, And that landed at that time in relationship 212 00:12:09,196 --> 00:12:13,476 Speaker 2: to like the construction of narrative and a song and 213 00:12:15,316 --> 00:12:18,796 Speaker 2: beetting a little bit closer to that singularity and that 214 00:12:18,836 --> 00:12:24,676 Speaker 2: specificity around the music. The musical elements are like, Oh, 215 00:12:25,076 --> 00:12:27,516 Speaker 2: I'm not a poet. I don't identify as a poet, 216 00:12:28,236 --> 00:12:31,516 Speaker 2: but I can appreciate that craft where like there's a 217 00:12:31,596 --> 00:12:35,756 Speaker 2: science as a math, like what the sense soial image 218 00:12:35,756 --> 00:12:39,556 Speaker 2: that you want the person to receive, you know, like 219 00:12:39,876 --> 00:12:44,276 Speaker 2: their imagination has to put your symbols together, and there's 220 00:12:44,316 --> 00:12:48,036 Speaker 2: like this like chemical reaction of like imaginative chemistry where 221 00:12:48,076 --> 00:12:52,236 Speaker 2: like oh they get the sense loyal image, and it's 222 00:12:52,276 --> 00:12:54,356 Speaker 2: like it's got to be those words and that sequence 223 00:12:54,396 --> 00:12:57,156 Speaker 2: and that part of the poem. And I I think 224 00:12:57,196 --> 00:13:02,036 Speaker 2: I perceive him doing that with all the parts, all 225 00:13:02,076 --> 00:13:05,076 Speaker 2: the parts, the tambore of his voice, what register he's 226 00:13:05,116 --> 00:13:11,476 Speaker 2: singing in the instrumentation, the texture or the harmonic progression. 227 00:13:10,996 --> 00:13:12,236 Speaker 3: The intro, the outro. 228 00:13:12,396 --> 00:13:16,476 Speaker 2: You know, he's doing that kind of like architecture, you know. 229 00:13:17,196 --> 00:13:20,996 Speaker 2: And I do think, I mean, I don't want to 230 00:13:20,996 --> 00:13:24,956 Speaker 2: conflate them either Wayne and Milton, because there's such distinct 231 00:13:25,316 --> 00:13:33,436 Speaker 2: singularities and that intentionality, that care into the minutia, that 232 00:13:33,636 --> 00:13:39,196 Speaker 2: care of the minutia is something that Wayne definitely embodied 233 00:13:39,236 --> 00:13:44,756 Speaker 2: in practiced down to he wrote every note of his 234 00:13:44,916 --> 00:13:50,476 Speaker 2: symphonic score is by hand now with pen, with pen, 235 00:13:50,996 --> 00:13:54,596 Speaker 2: so you know, the whole score, all the instruments in 236 00:13:54,636 --> 00:13:58,556 Speaker 2: the symphony. He wrote every note, every single note in 237 00:13:58,596 --> 00:14:05,196 Speaker 2: stem and line and sharp pen a hand. And the music, 238 00:14:05,276 --> 00:14:08,356 Speaker 2: the symphonic music he was writing always had like. 239 00:14:08,836 --> 00:14:13,156 Speaker 3: A big theme, you know, a big ooh. 240 00:14:12,836 --> 00:14:18,116 Speaker 2: Story or feeling or idea, and he would be writing 241 00:14:18,476 --> 00:14:22,956 Speaker 2: into the note in that passage of the music. It 242 00:14:22,996 --> 00:14:25,556 Speaker 2: would it would be some aspect of the larger theme, 243 00:14:25,596 --> 00:14:28,516 Speaker 2: you know, So he'd be writing into the note like 244 00:14:28,636 --> 00:14:30,636 Speaker 2: the intention of that part. 245 00:14:30,476 --> 00:14:32,916 Speaker 3: Of the music, like with his hand from his heart. 246 00:14:32,956 --> 00:14:36,996 Speaker 2: He'd be you know, like imbuing the note head with 247 00:14:37,076 --> 00:14:40,796 Speaker 2: that that idea, just the way he just everything. Yeah, 248 00:14:40,796 --> 00:14:42,676 Speaker 2: he would he would be like thinking about it and like, yeah, 249 00:14:42,916 --> 00:14:44,996 Speaker 2: this I want I want this third violinist, I want 250 00:14:44,996 --> 00:14:47,636 Speaker 2: this obo's to like feel this right here. So I'm 251 00:14:47,636 --> 00:14:50,396 Speaker 2: gonna I'm gonna write that in to the to the 252 00:14:50,476 --> 00:14:54,116 Speaker 2: to the phrase, and I mean then you zoom out 253 00:14:54,116 --> 00:14:57,076 Speaker 2: and you're like, Okay, a twenty five minute symphonic piece 254 00:14:57,076 --> 00:15:00,716 Speaker 2: that this person wrote, and every single note that he 255 00:15:00,796 --> 00:15:05,796 Speaker 2: wrote is like imbued with this this like message and 256 00:15:06,356 --> 00:15:10,636 Speaker 2: prayer or intention for the player is It's just it's 257 00:15:10,676 --> 00:15:13,676 Speaker 2: mind boggling. It's like a whole ecosystem, you know. So anyway, 258 00:15:14,836 --> 00:15:18,716 Speaker 2: they're both their own singularity, and maybe that depth of 259 00:15:18,876 --> 00:15:23,316 Speaker 2: care and thoroughness is something that we could say, you know, 260 00:15:23,396 --> 00:15:27,436 Speaker 2: I've witnessed in each of them, you know, in their 261 00:15:27,476 --> 00:15:29,436 Speaker 2: own in their own ways. 262 00:15:29,756 --> 00:15:31,756 Speaker 1: It's interesting too, because you know, I guess you know, 263 00:15:31,956 --> 00:15:35,996 Speaker 1: sometimes I think there's the temptation with things with with 264 00:15:36,276 --> 00:15:40,196 Speaker 1: music to just think that things just are like all 265 00:15:40,236 --> 00:15:42,876 Speaker 1: I mean, there are playing I think happy accidents that 266 00:15:42,956 --> 00:15:45,996 Speaker 1: occur in music making, but not everything is like some 267 00:15:46,196 --> 00:15:50,236 Speaker 1: there are like I mean, there are some things that 268 00:15:50,276 --> 00:15:54,076 Speaker 1: are are intentional and specific to these people that they 269 00:15:54,276 --> 00:15:58,036 Speaker 1: they go out of their way to imbue, you know, 270 00:15:58,076 --> 00:15:59,716 Speaker 1: their music with when do you think. 271 00:15:59,636 --> 00:16:01,596 Speaker 3: About when you talk about happy accidents. 272 00:16:01,796 --> 00:16:05,396 Speaker 2: It makes me think of, well, yes, there are lots 273 00:16:05,436 --> 00:16:08,796 Speaker 2: of happy accidents, and it's like. 274 00:16:08,836 --> 00:16:10,956 Speaker 3: What do you do with those happy accidents? 275 00:16:10,996 --> 00:16:13,396 Speaker 2: You know that that, to me is where the brilliance 276 00:16:13,436 --> 00:16:18,396 Speaker 2: happens because there's so much happening real time when you're 277 00:16:18,716 --> 00:16:22,476 Speaker 2: playing or improvising or composing. Even you know, Wayne needs 278 00:16:22,516 --> 00:16:27,116 Speaker 2: to always say composition is improvisation slowed down? So yes, 279 00:16:27,196 --> 00:16:29,796 Speaker 2: these things were like, oh emerge, yeah, I know he's 280 00:16:29,836 --> 00:16:34,916 Speaker 2: full of Yeah he was like he would say playing 281 00:16:35,076 --> 00:16:38,996 Speaker 2: is compositions sped up? And composition is soloings slowed down? 282 00:16:40,636 --> 00:16:44,116 Speaker 2: But yes, these miraculous your hand you're trying to play 283 00:16:44,156 --> 00:16:46,036 Speaker 2: one voice and like ooh your hand falls and another 284 00:16:46,076 --> 00:16:47,676 Speaker 2: ways like oh okay, that's interesting. 285 00:16:48,116 --> 00:16:50,396 Speaker 3: But you know what's compelling. 286 00:16:50,596 --> 00:16:53,996 Speaker 2: I guess where the like brilliant slides in any artists, 287 00:16:54,036 --> 00:16:56,796 Speaker 2: Like what what you see in that the potential that 288 00:16:56,876 --> 00:16:59,476 Speaker 2: you recognize in the quote unquote happy accident and how 289 00:16:59,516 --> 00:17:02,956 Speaker 2: you how you shift it, you know, how you integrate it. 290 00:17:03,556 --> 00:17:06,636 Speaker 2: And on the record, you know, we on the Milton 291 00:17:06,636 --> 00:17:08,956 Speaker 2: and s Bronza record, we really wanted to do this way. 292 00:17:09,116 --> 00:17:12,676 Speaker 2: Short song one You Dream because of course we were 293 00:17:12,716 --> 00:17:16,116 Speaker 2: thinking of him, uh, from son up to some doown, 294 00:17:16,236 --> 00:17:19,556 Speaker 2: you know, being in Brazil with his dear friend, and 295 00:17:19,796 --> 00:17:23,236 Speaker 2: Leo Genovese was there, and Leo was very close to Wayne. 296 00:17:23,316 --> 00:17:24,436 Speaker 3: Actually, the last. 297 00:17:24,236 --> 00:17:27,516 Speaker 2: Grammy Wayne won, he won with Leo Genovese. It was 298 00:17:27,636 --> 00:17:32,876 Speaker 2: the first time that two jazz instrumentalists shared the same 299 00:17:32,956 --> 00:17:39,236 Speaker 2: Grammy for Best Jazz Performance. Yeah. Incredible, Yeah, incredible player, 300 00:17:39,276 --> 00:17:43,916 Speaker 2: incredible composer. So yes, So we're in this room, you know, 301 00:17:43,996 --> 00:17:46,196 Speaker 2: and all of us in the room had had some 302 00:17:46,356 --> 00:17:47,916 Speaker 2: kind of a connection to Wayne. 303 00:17:47,916 --> 00:17:49,396 Speaker 3: He had departed. 304 00:17:50,276 --> 00:17:54,196 Speaker 2: In his own last words, he said, I'll be back soon. 305 00:17:54,916 --> 00:17:56,516 Speaker 2: I gotta go get a new body so I can 306 00:17:56,516 --> 00:18:02,516 Speaker 2: continue the mission. So we're all just you know, with 307 00:18:02,716 --> 00:18:07,396 Speaker 2: that immensity of his influence on our life and being 308 00:18:07,396 --> 00:18:10,316 Speaker 2: in the studio with Milton and wanted this song, and 309 00:18:10,356 --> 00:18:13,036 Speaker 2: I had done this whole arrangement. I spent weeks prepping 310 00:18:13,076 --> 00:18:16,996 Speaker 2: it and it was not working. It was just not working, 311 00:18:17,916 --> 00:18:20,356 Speaker 2: and I could feel it and I could own that 312 00:18:20,436 --> 00:18:23,116 Speaker 2: it wasn't working. But we just wanted to do it 313 00:18:23,196 --> 00:18:26,596 Speaker 2: so ad you know. So we're like we keep, you know, 314 00:18:26,996 --> 00:18:28,956 Speaker 2: carving at it and trying to rework the clay. 315 00:18:28,996 --> 00:18:33,956 Speaker 3: It's just not happening. And then we like stopped. I 316 00:18:33,996 --> 00:18:34,836 Speaker 3: felt so defeated. 317 00:18:34,836 --> 00:18:40,076 Speaker 2: I was like, ah, the night started remembering or hearing 318 00:18:41,076 --> 00:18:47,276 Speaker 2: Wayne's voice like, you gotta have fun. You know, it's 319 00:18:47,276 --> 00:18:50,436 Speaker 2: suposed to supposed to have hell of a good time. 320 00:18:50,636 --> 00:18:54,356 Speaker 2: You know, in everything, you're not having fun. 321 00:18:54,876 --> 00:18:55,836 Speaker 3: Why do it? You know? 322 00:18:56,476 --> 00:18:59,276 Speaker 2: And it's kind of like we started sharing these like 323 00:18:59,396 --> 00:19:02,836 Speaker 2: quotes and things that we had heard, you know, remembered 324 00:19:02,916 --> 00:19:04,476 Speaker 2: him saying or doing. 325 00:19:05,276 --> 00:19:06,636 Speaker 3: And then we. 326 00:19:06,516 --> 00:19:10,516 Speaker 2: Like threw the arrangement away and we said, let's just 327 00:19:10,556 --> 00:19:14,676 Speaker 2: go for broke. You know, let's just let's just play it. 328 00:19:15,636 --> 00:19:18,196 Speaker 2: You know, the melody is alive in us, and we're 329 00:19:18,196 --> 00:19:21,036 Speaker 2: gonna like let whatever tumbles out. 330 00:19:21,556 --> 00:19:24,116 Speaker 3: There's this line from a great poem that the. 331 00:19:25,716 --> 00:19:29,916 Speaker 2: Police tumbled out of the back of a van like oranges. Anyway, 332 00:19:30,276 --> 00:19:32,996 Speaker 2: it's like that feeling of like, you know, it's just yeah, 333 00:19:33,076 --> 00:19:35,756 Speaker 2: just telling out whatever gravity is working on you, the 334 00:19:35,756 --> 00:19:37,756 Speaker 2: forces of the world working on you. 335 00:19:37,396 --> 00:19:37,716 Speaker 3: Let it go. 336 00:19:38,556 --> 00:19:43,476 Speaker 2: And you could say the whole song, the whole song 337 00:19:44,116 --> 00:19:48,236 Speaker 2: is like this unfurling cascade of happy accidents. Because we 338 00:19:48,596 --> 00:19:51,076 Speaker 2: didn't have like an arrangement in mind, you know, we 339 00:19:51,196 --> 00:19:56,476 Speaker 2: were in real time, responding to the cascade of you know, 340 00:19:57,476 --> 00:20:00,676 Speaker 2: encounters from what each of us was playing that felt 341 00:20:00,676 --> 00:20:04,636 Speaker 2: fun or felt good. And I feel like that what 342 00:20:04,796 --> 00:20:07,196 Speaker 2: ended up on the record is this beautiful portrait of 343 00:20:07,276 --> 00:20:11,996 Speaker 2: like when when you when you usher in, are you 344 00:20:12,156 --> 00:20:18,036 Speaker 2: steward or you you trust? The kind of chaos of 345 00:20:19,516 --> 00:20:23,436 Speaker 2: many brilliant people pouring out, you know, the ingredients for 346 00:20:23,476 --> 00:20:27,476 Speaker 2: happy accidents to happen sequentially through the song. 347 00:20:28,956 --> 00:20:31,876 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Restaurants Spalding after the break. 348 00:20:36,556 --> 00:20:38,356 Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's like that. That was one 349 00:20:38,356 --> 00:20:40,836 Speaker 1: of the things. You know, Quincy Jones just died too, 350 00:20:40,996 --> 00:20:43,956 Speaker 1: and that was one of the things people kind of 351 00:20:43,956 --> 00:20:45,636 Speaker 1: talks about with him in terms of just the way 352 00:20:45,676 --> 00:20:49,436 Speaker 1: he arranged sometimes was like just getting people who were 353 00:20:49,516 --> 00:20:51,116 Speaker 1: really good at what they did and you could trust 354 00:20:51,156 --> 00:20:53,556 Speaker 1: and just let them go. And I guess that's a 355 00:20:53,556 --> 00:20:56,356 Speaker 1: similar thing, like if you have players who you know, 356 00:20:57,436 --> 00:21:00,756 Speaker 1: you know, bring a certain thing to the table. It's 357 00:21:00,756 --> 00:21:01,476 Speaker 1: like what I'm doing with. 358 00:21:01,436 --> 00:21:08,756 Speaker 2: The exactly that's one of good producing is well, I 359 00:21:08,756 --> 00:21:11,316 Speaker 2: guess you can because sometimes you're run in to produce 360 00:21:12,076 --> 00:21:14,596 Speaker 2: and it's already a group of people that you don't 361 00:21:15,236 --> 00:21:18,276 Speaker 2: you know you don't necessarily have history with but I 362 00:21:18,436 --> 00:21:23,236 Speaker 2: like the agency and the it's almost like a composition 363 00:21:23,316 --> 00:21:26,236 Speaker 2: of people. You know, the composition process starts with the 364 00:21:26,276 --> 00:21:30,396 Speaker 2: people of just what you said, you know, how the 365 00:21:30,476 --> 00:21:32,756 Speaker 2: chemistry of the folks work. You know, kind of like 366 00:21:32,996 --> 00:21:37,596 Speaker 2: the chemical reactions of these group of people. And you know, 367 00:21:37,796 --> 00:21:40,836 Speaker 2: I mean Quincy was definitely a master that, but all 368 00:21:40,836 --> 00:21:43,876 Speaker 2: great band leaders that's what they're doing, you know, that's 369 00:21:44,116 --> 00:21:47,236 Speaker 2: I remember. I mean I think about like Terryln Carrington, 370 00:21:48,236 --> 00:21:54,076 Speaker 2: who's a phenomenal producer, phenomenal producer, phenomenal arranger, drummer, yes, 371 00:21:54,116 --> 00:21:55,276 Speaker 2: a band leader, all the things. 372 00:21:55,756 --> 00:22:01,236 Speaker 3: And it's like she can see, she can like foresee 373 00:22:01,516 --> 00:22:05,156 Speaker 3: miracles between players that I think most people wouldn't give 374 00:22:05,196 --> 00:22:08,476 Speaker 3: the opportunity to to flourish. And she particularly kind of 375 00:22:08,516 --> 00:22:12,436 Speaker 3: has that. I like the potential of young musicians. You know, 376 00:22:12,476 --> 00:22:15,516 Speaker 3: it's like maybe they're not quite there today, but she 377 00:22:15,636 --> 00:22:19,156 Speaker 3: can like sense or smell like, but if I bring 378 00:22:19,196 --> 00:22:21,396 Speaker 3: them into this band with that person, that person, you know, 379 00:22:21,476 --> 00:22:24,596 Speaker 3: that gift, that thing that they have is gonna open 380 00:22:24,676 --> 00:22:28,676 Speaker 3: up and flourish in the right you know, chemical reaction 381 00:22:28,796 --> 00:22:31,636 Speaker 3: with with the other parts that are here. And that 382 00:22:31,796 --> 00:22:35,116 Speaker 3: is maybe a easy to miss superpower. 383 00:22:35,836 --> 00:22:36,636 Speaker 1: Do you think you have that? 384 00:22:38,356 --> 00:22:42,716 Speaker 3: I may, but I don't. I don't have a lot 385 00:22:42,716 --> 00:22:44,236 Speaker 3: of opportunity to find out because I play with the 386 00:22:44,236 --> 00:22:49,356 Speaker 3: same people. I have been so. 387 00:22:50,836 --> 00:22:56,156 Speaker 2: Lucky to encounter these players through my life that are 388 00:22:56,316 --> 00:23:01,276 Speaker 2: just you know, just gems, just so who like Leo, 389 00:23:01,996 --> 00:23:05,116 Speaker 2: like folks in this band, Eric Dude, Matt Stevens, Morgan Gharrion, 390 00:23:05,756 --> 00:23:07,396 Speaker 2: Justin Tyson, Corey King. 391 00:23:08,196 --> 00:23:09,356 Speaker 3: You know, these ones. 392 00:23:09,196 --> 00:23:13,316 Speaker 2: Who I just know, like I just I trust them 393 00:23:13,316 --> 00:23:17,836 Speaker 2: so deeply and to the point where I also know 394 00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:20,716 Speaker 2: they won't let me jump off any cliffs that I 395 00:23:20,756 --> 00:23:23,076 Speaker 2: can't fly back from, you know what I mean. And 396 00:23:23,116 --> 00:23:27,316 Speaker 2: that's also people that can give you like honest critique 397 00:23:27,356 --> 00:23:32,276 Speaker 2: and honest feedback. So I'll say, maybe I have that skill, 398 00:23:32,876 --> 00:23:36,556 Speaker 2: but I'm not putting myself in the circumstances to flex 399 00:23:36,596 --> 00:23:43,556 Speaker 2: that musclefully if it's indeed there. Yeah, okay, I will 400 00:23:43,556 --> 00:23:45,276 Speaker 2: find out, maybe you. 401 00:23:45,436 --> 00:23:48,476 Speaker 1: Kind of from the beginning. I've just been producing your 402 00:23:48,516 --> 00:23:50,196 Speaker 1: own records. 403 00:23:50,596 --> 00:23:54,956 Speaker 2: Yes, I've been producing my record since the first record 404 00:23:55,876 --> 00:24:01,196 Speaker 2: and in I guess two thousand and six six, WHOA. 405 00:24:01,796 --> 00:24:02,396 Speaker 3: That's weird. 406 00:24:02,996 --> 00:24:05,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I guess I produced them two thousand and 407 00:24:05,356 --> 00:24:07,036 Speaker 2: five and it came out in two thousand and six, 408 00:24:07,196 --> 00:24:07,916 Speaker 2: twenty years ago. 409 00:24:08,036 --> 00:24:10,436 Speaker 3: That's shocking. WHOA, what do you put it like that? 410 00:24:10,596 --> 00:24:14,756 Speaker 1: To find a point on it. 411 00:24:13,716 --> 00:24:17,316 Speaker 3: I'm like, WHOA, is that true? Yeah? 412 00:24:17,356 --> 00:24:20,636 Speaker 2: And that's I don't want to say that's easier, but 413 00:24:21,476 --> 00:24:22,476 Speaker 2: I feel. 414 00:24:24,476 --> 00:24:26,716 Speaker 3: It's a It's a really different. 415 00:24:27,796 --> 00:24:31,436 Speaker 2: Creature when you're producing in a way that's ushering someone 416 00:24:31,476 --> 00:24:36,996 Speaker 2: else's vision, you know, into fullness. I have immense respect 417 00:24:37,076 --> 00:24:39,516 Speaker 2: for the producers who do that for a living. 418 00:24:39,596 --> 00:24:42,436 Speaker 1: You know, I can't imagine producing your very first record 419 00:24:42,516 --> 00:24:45,596 Speaker 1: is any easy because you're kind of like, I mean, 420 00:24:46,716 --> 00:24:49,316 Speaker 1: now you know what to expect of yourself in a 421 00:24:49,436 --> 00:24:53,036 Speaker 1: situation going into produce another artist you might not know. 422 00:24:53,076 --> 00:24:54,996 Speaker 1: That's like, but like so, I mean in the sense 423 00:24:54,996 --> 00:24:57,596 Speaker 1: of your first albums, and you're kind of like an 424 00:24:57,636 --> 00:24:59,796 Speaker 1: unknown entity to yourself in some ways in the studio. 425 00:24:59,796 --> 00:25:03,516 Speaker 1: As much as strange or someone you're producing got to 426 00:25:03,516 --> 00:25:04,916 Speaker 1: be scary, it had to be weird. 427 00:25:05,316 --> 00:25:06,116 Speaker 3: The truth about that. 428 00:25:06,076 --> 00:25:09,356 Speaker 2: First record is I wasn't planning for that to be 429 00:25:09,436 --> 00:25:13,596 Speaker 2: some sort of like representation of me as an artist, 430 00:25:13,756 --> 00:25:15,996 Speaker 2: you know, at that time in my life in music, 431 00:25:16,036 --> 00:25:17,676 Speaker 2: I was playing all kinds of records. 432 00:25:17,756 --> 00:25:18,676 Speaker 3: I was playing. 433 00:25:18,516 --> 00:25:21,356 Speaker 2: Anybody and everybody's record because I was in school and 434 00:25:21,396 --> 00:25:23,196 Speaker 2: you just your make a record left to right. You're 435 00:25:23,236 --> 00:25:25,116 Speaker 2: going down to the studio from the two am to 436 00:25:25,156 --> 00:25:29,236 Speaker 2: six am recording session. You just here's here's playing and 437 00:25:29,276 --> 00:25:31,036 Speaker 2: doing things. I have made a lot of little demos 438 00:25:31,076 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 2: for myself, and you know, when this label called ava 439 00:25:34,676 --> 00:25:37,916 Speaker 2: A y v A approached me like, hey, you want 440 00:25:37,916 --> 00:25:40,476 Speaker 2: to do a record with with you know, just a 441 00:25:40,516 --> 00:25:42,756 Speaker 2: project that you have, I was like, cool, I had 442 00:25:42,796 --> 00:25:45,516 Speaker 2: this little you know, I don't want to say whatever, 443 00:25:45,596 --> 00:25:48,676 Speaker 2: but just two of the many dozens of people that 444 00:25:48,716 --> 00:25:50,316 Speaker 2: I was doing projects with. 445 00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:54,716 Speaker 3: It was and Francisco Mela and yeah yeah, but I 446 00:25:54,716 --> 00:25:57,516 Speaker 3: mean it gets twenty years ago, like we didn't. 447 00:25:57,276 --> 00:26:00,276 Speaker 2: Know who A and Francisco I was gonna become their 448 00:26:00,556 --> 00:26:03,716 Speaker 2: teachers and students in Boston. So I was like, hey, 449 00:26:03,756 --> 00:26:05,356 Speaker 2: you guys, you want to get in the studio, will 450 00:26:05,356 --> 00:26:08,156 Speaker 2: make a record for this Spanish label like cuckoo cool? 451 00:26:08,276 --> 00:26:09,076 Speaker 3: I mean it really didn't. 452 00:26:09,356 --> 00:26:12,276 Speaker 2: It didn't have like gravitas, it didn't have like weight. 453 00:26:12,556 --> 00:26:14,956 Speaker 2: You know, we have been doing tons of gigs around 454 00:26:14,956 --> 00:26:18,516 Speaker 2: Boston with various configurations with you know those two folks, 455 00:26:18,596 --> 00:26:20,676 Speaker 2: and so we just went in the studio, played some 456 00:26:20,676 --> 00:26:23,196 Speaker 2: of the stuff we play, played some improvised stuff. 457 00:26:24,196 --> 00:26:24,516 Speaker 3: Cool. 458 00:26:25,636 --> 00:26:29,196 Speaker 2: Yeah it was, and I'm thinking like this is going 459 00:26:29,276 --> 00:26:31,716 Speaker 2: to be some little like niche record from this niche 460 00:26:31,796 --> 00:26:32,876 Speaker 2: label in Spain. 461 00:26:33,756 --> 00:26:36,196 Speaker 3: The end next kind of like thank you. 462 00:26:36,356 --> 00:26:38,476 Speaker 2: That was a nice little archive of this band, this 463 00:26:38,556 --> 00:26:40,436 Speaker 2: Boston local Boston project. 464 00:26:40,836 --> 00:26:42,236 Speaker 3: Cool, like what's next? You know? 465 00:26:42,996 --> 00:26:48,556 Speaker 2: Then I have played a song by a phenomenal Argentining 466 00:26:48,796 --> 00:26:54,116 Speaker 2: composer called I'd heard a version that Lilyanarrero and Juan 467 00:26:54,516 --> 00:26:58,396 Speaker 2: did of this song called that, which is on the 468 00:26:58,396 --> 00:27:01,316 Speaker 2: record thank you. I love that song and also check 469 00:27:01,356 --> 00:27:06,796 Speaker 2: out and Lillian Nearreo because their version. Anyways, at a 470 00:27:06,796 --> 00:27:12,716 Speaker 2: Spanish management company there happened to be a man from Argentina. 471 00:27:13,316 --> 00:27:16,396 Speaker 2: So when this teeny little label was looking like shopping 472 00:27:16,436 --> 00:27:19,516 Speaker 2: the album looking for you know, promotion, they shopped it 473 00:27:19,556 --> 00:27:23,316 Speaker 2: to this other Spanish company and they're like, ugh, no, 474 00:27:23,556 --> 00:27:25,356 Speaker 2: you know, we're not taking projects like what little just 475 00:27:25,396 --> 00:27:28,516 Speaker 2: this free jazz stuff like whatever. But then one Argentina 476 00:27:28,516 --> 00:27:30,596 Speaker 2: guy was like, wait, what why is this girl? 477 00:27:30,836 --> 00:27:32,716 Speaker 3: Why is this black girl in Boston? 478 00:27:32,836 --> 00:27:38,396 Speaker 2: Know this Argentina composer and just because of that, this 479 00:27:38,436 --> 00:27:40,636 Speaker 2: company reached out and they were like, okay, who are you, 480 00:27:40,756 --> 00:27:41,356 Speaker 2: what are you doing? 481 00:27:41,596 --> 00:27:42,036 Speaker 3: Kind of thing? 482 00:27:42,996 --> 00:27:45,476 Speaker 2: And then that was the only album that I had 483 00:27:45,476 --> 00:27:48,596 Speaker 2: made technically, so that became my first record, you know 484 00:27:48,636 --> 00:27:49,116 Speaker 2: what I'm saying. 485 00:27:49,276 --> 00:27:51,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, so and way you didn't expect it to be 486 00:27:51,756 --> 00:27:52,876 Speaker 1: like a college card or. 487 00:27:54,236 --> 00:27:58,636 Speaker 2: Even looking back, I'm like, that is just okay, yeah cool. 488 00:27:58,876 --> 00:28:01,676 Speaker 2: If it's almost like, oh, if you can. 489 00:28:01,276 --> 00:28:03,796 Speaker 3: I think my beautiful face helped. But I was like, 490 00:28:03,876 --> 00:28:06,596 Speaker 3: if y'all can listen to that, I guess I give 491 00:28:06,636 --> 00:28:07,236 Speaker 3: you anything. 492 00:28:08,756 --> 00:28:12,436 Speaker 1: I've listened to that, your first two records a long time, okay, 493 00:28:12,716 --> 00:28:15,636 Speaker 1: really good, really good, because I feel like the artists 494 00:28:15,636 --> 00:28:19,636 Speaker 1: sometimes you get like a narrative, either maybe you've you 495 00:28:19,676 --> 00:28:22,556 Speaker 1: embraced a certain narrative or people overlay a narrative, and 496 00:28:22,596 --> 00:28:25,996 Speaker 1: I feel like that sometimes, or if I were to 497 00:28:26,036 --> 00:28:27,716 Speaker 1: just think about it, like so, I feel like maybe 498 00:28:27,716 --> 00:28:29,676 Speaker 1: the narrative is like that you've stretched out a lot, 499 00:28:29,796 --> 00:28:32,196 Speaker 1: and you obviously had, you've done so much, but like 500 00:28:32,436 --> 00:28:34,596 Speaker 1: but that that those are kind of more just straight ahead, 501 00:28:34,716 --> 00:28:38,596 Speaker 1: just kind of funny. But really but when I put 502 00:28:38,596 --> 00:28:40,156 Speaker 1: them on, I was like, WHOA. I was kind of 503 00:28:40,196 --> 00:28:44,316 Speaker 1: surprised at actually how good they really are. Yeah, yeah, 504 00:28:45,076 --> 00:28:45,956 Speaker 1: I thought you're not great. 505 00:28:46,076 --> 00:28:48,596 Speaker 3: No, but I hear you. Yeah, I was twenty years. 506 00:28:48,476 --> 00:28:51,036 Speaker 1: Old and needs to be discounted. I don't think I. 507 00:28:50,916 --> 00:28:55,556 Speaker 2: Receive it, and hey, hallelujah, that's a I do think. 508 00:28:56,636 --> 00:28:58,356 Speaker 2: I do think of the ways you can come into 509 00:28:58,436 --> 00:29:01,636 Speaker 2: the music industry. Just looking back now from that perspective, 510 00:29:02,076 --> 00:29:03,676 Speaker 2: it's funny. 511 00:29:03,756 --> 00:29:06,796 Speaker 3: It's funny, it's kind of like cheeky. It actually matches 512 00:29:06,836 --> 00:29:09,836 Speaker 3: the truth of my personality. It's funny that the first 513 00:29:09,876 --> 00:29:15,436 Speaker 3: record was just like weird, random kind of avant garde 514 00:29:15,836 --> 00:29:20,316 Speaker 3: trio free thing with these two black Huban men who 515 00:29:20,356 --> 00:29:23,716 Speaker 3: were way freakier than musically, way freakier than what's even 516 00:29:23,716 --> 00:29:25,956 Speaker 3: on that record. Like, I like that. 517 00:29:26,316 --> 00:29:30,076 Speaker 2: There's something kind of like trickstery about that being the 518 00:29:30,516 --> 00:29:34,396 Speaker 2: first calling card. And in a way, you know, when 519 00:29:34,516 --> 00:29:36,676 Speaker 2: when anybody wants to say like, oh, you know you're 520 00:29:36,716 --> 00:29:38,516 Speaker 2: taking it too out or like you know, do that 521 00:29:38,636 --> 00:29:40,356 Speaker 2: s side of the STU be like, no, there's a 522 00:29:40,396 --> 00:29:44,156 Speaker 2: precedent here here for being you. 523 00:29:44,116 --> 00:29:45,556 Speaker 3: Know, on the edge. 524 00:29:46,196 --> 00:29:48,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, would you do you think you would have if 525 00:29:48,676 --> 00:29:51,796 Speaker 1: you if you had known that that was gonna be Oh, 526 00:29:51,916 --> 00:29:52,916 Speaker 1: I would. 527 00:29:52,636 --> 00:29:54,116 Speaker 3: Have done it completely different. 528 00:29:54,156 --> 00:29:55,876 Speaker 2: Of course, do you think you would have overthought it 529 00:29:55,996 --> 00:29:57,476 Speaker 2: or do you think you have done different stuff? 530 00:29:57,476 --> 00:29:59,116 Speaker 1: Would you have done? Like looking back, what do you 531 00:29:59,116 --> 00:29:59,796 Speaker 1: think you would have done? 532 00:29:59,876 --> 00:30:04,516 Speaker 2: Look him back, look him back. I would have put 533 00:30:04,556 --> 00:30:08,436 Speaker 2: my songs, like my own songs on it. I would 534 00:30:08,436 --> 00:30:12,236 Speaker 2: have sung more. I would have had arrangements, you know, 535 00:30:12,716 --> 00:30:18,156 Speaker 2: more like horn arrangements and vocal arrangements, and oh, I'm 536 00:30:18,196 --> 00:30:21,036 Speaker 2: sure I would have done especially if there was the 537 00:30:21,156 --> 00:30:25,116 Speaker 2: lack of oversight like there was, because it really was. 538 00:30:25,676 --> 00:30:26,716 Speaker 3: It was the sweet It. 539 00:30:26,676 --> 00:30:31,276 Speaker 2: Was like a father son duo who ran this whole album, 540 00:30:31,556 --> 00:30:34,636 Speaker 2: and it was very there was like free artistic license, 541 00:30:34,716 --> 00:30:37,756 Speaker 2: like it was really just like here's the funds, just 542 00:30:37,796 --> 00:30:39,956 Speaker 2: bring us a record, like whatever you want to do. 543 00:30:40,756 --> 00:30:42,356 Speaker 2: And it was a short timeline, so I was like, 544 00:30:42,396 --> 00:30:43,796 Speaker 2: all right, who's who am I? 545 00:30:43,836 --> 00:30:44,116 Speaker 1: Who am? 546 00:30:44,116 --> 00:30:45,756 Speaker 2: I already have a thing with oh YouTube, we've been 547 00:30:45,796 --> 00:30:47,636 Speaker 2: doing gigs all you know all season. 548 00:30:47,876 --> 00:30:49,196 Speaker 3: Let's go in the studio real quick. 549 00:30:50,036 --> 00:30:52,516 Speaker 1: It's kind of the classic way. I don't know, that's 550 00:30:52,556 --> 00:30:54,756 Speaker 1: a great way. 551 00:30:54,796 --> 00:30:57,916 Speaker 2: I feel like that was like representative of the like 552 00:30:58,076 --> 00:31:01,676 Speaker 2: the portrait of the artists and then the. 553 00:31:01,916 --> 00:31:04,956 Speaker 3: Not the problem because I like the second record, Esperanza. 554 00:31:04,996 --> 00:31:06,436 Speaker 3: But what I'll say. 555 00:31:06,356 --> 00:31:11,556 Speaker 2: Is then other people's money and agenda was wrapped up 556 00:31:11,636 --> 00:31:15,356 Speaker 2: in the album I was making. And so I will 557 00:31:15,396 --> 00:31:19,156 Speaker 2: never dismiss or disregard the incredible support and work that 558 00:31:19,156 --> 00:31:22,556 Speaker 2: that first kind of swath of like my team did 559 00:31:22,596 --> 00:31:25,716 Speaker 2: for me. They fought for me so hard and all 560 00:31:25,796 --> 00:31:28,316 Speaker 2: this stuff. That's like I mean, of course that's my 561 00:31:28,676 --> 00:31:31,156 Speaker 2: hard work and my great music. But like all these 562 00:31:31,196 --> 00:31:34,156 Speaker 2: opportunities that keep you know, tumbling talk about tumbling out 563 00:31:34,716 --> 00:31:37,236 Speaker 2: from those early days of my career are really thanks 564 00:31:37,276 --> 00:31:41,036 Speaker 2: to you know, the devotion and the like hustle and 565 00:31:41,116 --> 00:31:42,516 Speaker 2: the whatever was. 566 00:31:42,516 --> 00:31:44,996 Speaker 3: Driving these men you know in the industry who like 567 00:31:45,236 --> 00:31:50,076 Speaker 3: you know it was it was Montuno Productions, and it 568 00:31:50,116 --> 00:31:52,356 Speaker 3: was Dave Love, and it was Concord Records. 569 00:31:52,356 --> 00:31:55,996 Speaker 2: It was John Burke and Mark Wexler, and you know, 570 00:31:56,076 --> 00:31:58,516 Speaker 2: these ones who like they saw like ooh, we know 571 00:31:58,556 --> 00:31:59,956 Speaker 2: what to do with this. It was that kind of 572 00:31:59,956 --> 00:32:03,916 Speaker 2: like I'm gonna say, they saw the commodity value, and 573 00:32:03,956 --> 00:32:05,636 Speaker 2: it's not to I'm sure they cared about me as 574 00:32:05,636 --> 00:32:09,476 Speaker 2: a human on levels. And they're in the music business 575 00:32:09,556 --> 00:32:14,076 Speaker 2: and their dubs to sell music and artists as Amadie 576 00:32:14,236 --> 00:32:19,796 Speaker 2: and and I remember having these conversations with the label. 577 00:32:19,876 --> 00:32:23,156 Speaker 2: My first album came out on Heads Up, which hadn't 578 00:32:23,236 --> 00:32:26,716 Speaker 2: yet been purchased by Concord, you know. 579 00:32:26,796 --> 00:32:27,916 Speaker 3: A KA universal. 580 00:32:28,956 --> 00:32:34,036 Speaker 2: Then they're there, whatever you call it, the overarching companies, university, conglomerate, 581 00:32:34,036 --> 00:32:38,596 Speaker 2: thank you. I think it is SO or parent company 582 00:32:38,676 --> 00:32:41,956 Speaker 2: or whatever. So I remember, you know, I had I 583 00:32:42,076 --> 00:32:42,876 Speaker 2: wrote a lot. 584 00:32:42,716 --> 00:32:43,476 Speaker 3: In those days. 585 00:32:43,556 --> 00:32:47,276 Speaker 2: I had like so many songs, so many arrangements, and 586 00:32:47,316 --> 00:32:51,356 Speaker 2: I remember the head of the of the label be like, 587 00:32:51,396 --> 00:32:54,876 Speaker 2: but we have this grid. You know, you have to 588 00:32:55,076 --> 00:32:58,236 Speaker 2: the songs have to fit in these categories on the grid, 589 00:32:58,356 --> 00:33:00,916 Speaker 2: and so you can't put that a grid. It was like, 590 00:33:01,276 --> 00:33:03,956 Speaker 2: you know, songs that have this vibe, songs like a 591 00:33:03,996 --> 00:33:08,156 Speaker 2: ballad like and it actually became of a joke between 592 00:33:08,156 --> 00:33:10,036 Speaker 2: me and musicians like old, don't mess up the grid. 593 00:33:10,396 --> 00:33:13,116 Speaker 2: Wait now we can't make sure. Don't think he's going 594 00:33:13,156 --> 00:33:15,716 Speaker 2: to get you. And and this is, oh, you know, 595 00:33:15,716 --> 00:33:17,276 Speaker 2: where's the hook of the song. I was like, hook 596 00:33:17,316 --> 00:33:20,236 Speaker 2: of the song. Don't you know what kind of musician 597 00:33:20,276 --> 00:33:20,476 Speaker 2: I am? 598 00:33:20,476 --> 00:33:21,916 Speaker 3: I don't know hooks and whatever. 599 00:33:22,316 --> 00:33:25,116 Speaker 2: So I at my little twenty two year old self 600 00:33:26,076 --> 00:33:29,676 Speaker 2: I remember this like icky kind of tug of war 601 00:33:30,436 --> 00:33:33,716 Speaker 2: with these humans who had more experience than me, were 602 00:33:33,756 --> 00:33:36,036 Speaker 2: older than me, saw me as a kid who hadn't 603 00:33:36,036 --> 00:33:38,276 Speaker 2: know what I was doing, and were really putting a 604 00:33:38,316 --> 00:33:41,916 Speaker 2: lot of pressure on me to make these decisions about 605 00:33:41,956 --> 00:33:44,516 Speaker 2: the music that was gonna get end up on this record. 606 00:33:45,156 --> 00:33:48,876 Speaker 2: And I did fight and push, but it was a 607 00:33:48,956 --> 00:33:52,716 Speaker 2: tug of war. So that means there are compromises that 608 00:33:52,756 --> 00:33:54,676 Speaker 2: I felt like I had to make because these were 609 00:33:54,676 --> 00:33:57,036 Speaker 2: the money people and the folks who knew the industry 610 00:33:57,916 --> 00:33:58,956 Speaker 2: and I didn't know. 611 00:33:58,996 --> 00:34:00,836 Speaker 3: Of course, their ultimate agenda. 612 00:34:00,676 --> 00:34:02,636 Speaker 2: Was like you know, you have you had the potential 613 00:34:02,636 --> 00:34:04,116 Speaker 2: to be big in jazz, you know what I mean. 614 00:34:04,396 --> 00:34:05,156 Speaker 3: I was trying. 615 00:34:04,916 --> 00:34:09,316 Speaker 2: To no, because you would never say that to somebody, 616 00:34:09,396 --> 00:34:09,676 Speaker 2: you know. 617 00:34:10,116 --> 00:34:12,716 Speaker 3: And I don't know if my brain would have registered 618 00:34:12,716 --> 00:34:13,516 Speaker 3: the depths of. 619 00:34:13,916 --> 00:34:16,396 Speaker 2: You know, the power dynamics at work there with all 620 00:34:16,396 --> 00:34:19,396 Speaker 2: these like white businessmen who were seeing this like young 621 00:34:19,876 --> 00:34:22,076 Speaker 2: you know, I didn't. They were my representation and my 622 00:34:22,156 --> 00:34:24,436 Speaker 2: label and my you know, so here I'm this like 623 00:34:24,476 --> 00:34:27,236 Speaker 2: little young, like naive critter who's just like I just 624 00:34:27,276 --> 00:34:29,436 Speaker 2: gonna make neat songs, you know what I mean? I 625 00:34:29,436 --> 00:34:33,956 Speaker 2: don't think I could have comprehended the layers at work 626 00:34:33,996 --> 00:34:36,276 Speaker 2: there in the whole dynamic. 627 00:34:36,076 --> 00:34:36,836 Speaker 3: But they could. 628 00:34:38,396 --> 00:34:42,516 Speaker 2: They definitely could comprehend the layers of potential and you know, 629 00:34:43,156 --> 00:34:47,036 Speaker 2: you know, income potential and commodity potential and brand potential 630 00:34:47,036 --> 00:34:48,236 Speaker 2: and all the things. 631 00:34:48,796 --> 00:34:50,556 Speaker 3: So all that to say. 632 00:34:50,876 --> 00:34:53,196 Speaker 2: From June Joe to then the first album like it's 633 00:34:53,316 --> 00:34:55,636 Speaker 2: to Esperanza, it's a great album. 634 00:34:55,676 --> 00:34:58,036 Speaker 3: I'm like, Wow, yes, I can stand by it, and 635 00:34:58,596 --> 00:35:00,596 Speaker 3: I feel very aware. 636 00:35:00,276 --> 00:35:05,356 Speaker 2: Of the compromises down to the budget was what it was, 637 00:35:05,396 --> 00:35:10,476 Speaker 2: which wasn't great, and so for the engineer to really 638 00:35:10,756 --> 00:35:14,916 Speaker 2: do the great engineer to do the job, they wanted 639 00:35:15,196 --> 00:35:19,596 Speaker 2: producer credit, you know, and stuff like that. And you're like, 640 00:35:20,996 --> 00:35:23,556 Speaker 2: I don't know what that, but you know what that meant, 641 00:35:24,316 --> 00:35:26,316 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like I wasn't paying attention 642 00:35:26,356 --> 00:35:29,756 Speaker 2: to that part of the contract negotiations. My manager was 643 00:35:29,796 --> 00:35:32,356 Speaker 2: doing it, who was also friends with the label, who 644 00:35:32,436 --> 00:35:33,876 Speaker 2: was friends with the you know what I mean. So 645 00:35:34,436 --> 00:35:36,676 Speaker 2: you're not tracking this at twenty two you don't know 646 00:35:36,716 --> 00:35:38,796 Speaker 2: how the music industry works yet, and I'm not This 647 00:35:38,876 --> 00:35:39,796 Speaker 2: is not a SOB story. 648 00:35:39,836 --> 00:35:41,596 Speaker 3: I'm so grateful everything that happened happened. 649 00:35:41,956 --> 00:35:44,876 Speaker 2: It just it just is what it is, and it's 650 00:35:44,916 --> 00:35:49,836 Speaker 2: things like also how I think like labor gets invisibilized. 651 00:35:50,236 --> 00:35:51,396 Speaker 3: I think, especially. 652 00:35:50,996 --> 00:35:54,156 Speaker 2: Early on for the sake of you know, people want 653 00:35:54,156 --> 00:35:57,556 Speaker 2: to cut the of the narrative or a cut of 654 00:35:57,596 --> 00:36:00,956 Speaker 2: the credit or a cut of the whatever. And you know, 655 00:36:01,916 --> 00:36:04,716 Speaker 2: I'm sure the people in the room will tell you 656 00:36:05,036 --> 00:36:07,876 Speaker 2: the musicians produced that record. I produced that record. I 657 00:36:08,156 --> 00:36:10,396 Speaker 2: chose the music. You know. It was like, but my 658 00:36:10,476 --> 00:36:12,076 Speaker 2: name's not on there as a producer, you know what 659 00:36:12,116 --> 00:36:16,996 Speaker 2: I mean. And and there are elements in that record 660 00:36:16,996 --> 00:36:19,516 Speaker 2: that I roll my eyes about now because there were 661 00:36:19,516 --> 00:36:22,156 Speaker 2: decisions made for the grid. You know, for someone in 662 00:36:22,196 --> 00:36:28,596 Speaker 2: the industries talking about jazz music as industry, it's like 663 00:36:28,596 --> 00:36:32,116 Speaker 2: a joke. For some people, it is their industry and 664 00:36:32,156 --> 00:36:33,996 Speaker 2: that's how they pay their mortgage, and so. 665 00:36:37,036 --> 00:36:39,316 Speaker 1: It's doing a thing a lot of them for error. 666 00:36:39,356 --> 00:36:41,876 Speaker 1: So maybe that's so I guess that's where the grid 667 00:36:41,916 --> 00:36:42,236 Speaker 1: comes from. 668 00:36:42,276 --> 00:36:43,476 Speaker 3: I guess that's where the grid comes in. 669 00:36:43,556 --> 00:36:51,756 Speaker 2: It's just I now, at twenty years later, am clarified 670 00:36:51,836 --> 00:36:54,276 Speaker 2: that then it was about what it's still about for 671 00:36:54,356 --> 00:37:01,636 Speaker 2: me now, which is you know, putting your the sounds 672 00:37:01,636 --> 00:37:03,156 Speaker 2: that you're hearing into the world. 673 00:37:03,876 --> 00:37:06,516 Speaker 3: That's the assignment. That's what I think the assignment is. 674 00:37:07,276 --> 00:37:15,756 Speaker 2: And I say no when the option is, hey, you know, 675 00:37:15,876 --> 00:37:17,556 Speaker 2: put this thing on this record that's going to live 676 00:37:17,556 --> 00:37:21,556 Speaker 2: in the world forever for the sake of potential. I 677 00:37:21,596 --> 00:37:24,716 Speaker 2: don't know, like it could go further quote unquote, or 678 00:37:25,316 --> 00:37:28,636 Speaker 2: you could sell more. You know, I'm always gonna say 679 00:37:28,676 --> 00:37:34,676 Speaker 2: no if it's either or between that choice or the 680 00:37:34,836 --> 00:37:38,436 Speaker 2: representation of what we heard. You know, what the musicians 681 00:37:38,596 --> 00:37:43,596 Speaker 2: like felt, heard, saw and were able to craft in 682 00:37:43,636 --> 00:37:44,876 Speaker 2: a way that someone else. 683 00:37:44,716 --> 00:37:45,636 Speaker 3: Could hear it and see it. 684 00:37:45,676 --> 00:37:48,796 Speaker 1: Do you think there's more truth in that spending more 685 00:37:48,836 --> 00:37:53,196 Speaker 1: time getting exactly what you hear in your head, or 686 00:37:53,356 --> 00:37:58,596 Speaker 1: in just getting out what you can in the moment. Well, 687 00:37:58,676 --> 00:37:59,596 Speaker 1: I I. 688 00:37:59,556 --> 00:38:02,036 Speaker 2: Don't mean what we heard in the sense of like 689 00:38:02,076 --> 00:38:05,756 Speaker 2: a tyrannical you know, it must be it must match 690 00:38:05,796 --> 00:38:06,876 Speaker 2: exactly the image of my brain. 691 00:38:06,916 --> 00:38:09,316 Speaker 3: That's not what I mean by what we heard. I 692 00:38:09,356 --> 00:38:12,196 Speaker 3: mean what's true. 693 00:38:11,436 --> 00:38:14,676 Speaker 2: You know, and what we heard can encompass what happened 694 00:38:14,676 --> 00:38:16,436 Speaker 2: when we started with the sketch. 695 00:38:16,996 --> 00:38:20,036 Speaker 3: But these five people in a room whoa found another thing, 696 00:38:20,116 --> 00:38:22,676 Speaker 3: And you know, it's more about the truth. 697 00:38:22,876 --> 00:38:25,996 Speaker 2: It's more about telling the truth of who we are, 698 00:38:26,316 --> 00:38:29,316 Speaker 2: you know, and the we is the humans who have 699 00:38:29,676 --> 00:38:32,316 Speaker 2: dedicated this time to be doing this and nothing else, 700 00:38:32,836 --> 00:38:37,676 Speaker 2: to create this thing called music that is so mysterious. 701 00:38:37,716 --> 00:38:41,516 Speaker 2: And I think I feel so holy. And I don't 702 00:38:41,516 --> 00:38:44,676 Speaker 2: mean it in any particular denomination or a religious paradigm 703 00:38:44,716 --> 00:38:48,756 Speaker 2: or cosmology, but you know, I think whatever the word 704 00:38:48,836 --> 00:38:52,556 Speaker 2: holiness is trying to speak to of a of a 705 00:38:52,636 --> 00:38:58,436 Speaker 2: something that is possible or is amongst us in this world. 706 00:38:59,276 --> 00:39:02,796 Speaker 2: I feel the presence of this thing that I would 707 00:39:02,876 --> 00:39:07,036 Speaker 2: use the word holy to describe that emerges when people 708 00:39:07,156 --> 00:39:12,476 Speaker 2: are making music, and that thing that, like you use 709 00:39:12,556 --> 00:39:17,036 Speaker 2: the word ineffable earlier, that like feeling or who our 710 00:39:17,156 --> 00:39:20,076 Speaker 2: presence is the thing that I want to share. 711 00:39:20,236 --> 00:39:22,036 Speaker 3: That to me, that is. 712 00:39:21,996 --> 00:39:27,436 Speaker 2: The thing worth efforting to carry it, to give, to give, 713 00:39:28,316 --> 00:39:30,556 Speaker 2: to give, to give it to each other, and to 714 00:39:30,596 --> 00:39:33,276 Speaker 2: give it to somebody who's gonna take some of their 715 00:39:33,316 --> 00:39:35,156 Speaker 2: time out of their life to listen to you. 716 00:39:35,236 --> 00:39:38,356 Speaker 3: Like that's a bit. I think that's a big ass deal. 717 00:39:39,036 --> 00:39:42,276 Speaker 2: Like your attention, your time, that's all you have, and 718 00:39:42,476 --> 00:39:44,556 Speaker 2: we don't know how long any of us are going 719 00:39:44,636 --> 00:39:47,076 Speaker 2: to be on this earth. And like a human being, 720 00:39:47,436 --> 00:39:49,556 Speaker 2: another human being that I don't even know that doesn't 721 00:39:49,556 --> 00:39:53,556 Speaker 2: even owe me anything, like I'm not even their family, being. 722 00:39:53,436 --> 00:39:56,356 Speaker 3: Like oh yeah, okay, cool, Like I. 723 00:39:56,316 --> 00:40:00,356 Speaker 2: Will dedicate some of my time, some of my attention 724 00:40:00,996 --> 00:40:04,556 Speaker 2: to this thing that was created. I feel it's our 725 00:40:04,596 --> 00:40:10,236 Speaker 2: responsibility to just try to just deliver who that holiness 726 00:40:10,236 --> 00:40:21,236 Speaker 2: that we can conjured, conjure a company usher through us. 727 00:40:21,436 --> 00:40:24,876 Speaker 3: And and I think. 728 00:40:24,956 --> 00:40:27,316 Speaker 2: Somewhere I knew these things at twenty, but I didn't 729 00:40:27,356 --> 00:40:32,876 Speaker 2: have the confidence to fully advocate, and I wanted to 730 00:40:33,076 --> 00:40:35,876 Speaker 2: honor the investment other people were making in me, so 731 00:40:35,916 --> 00:40:39,716 Speaker 2: I made a lot of like eye rolling concessions. But 732 00:40:39,836 --> 00:40:47,556 Speaker 2: now people like that around, So now I said that 733 00:40:47,596 --> 00:40:49,276 Speaker 2: I can stand by the last few and be like, yeah, 734 00:40:49,276 --> 00:40:51,036 Speaker 2: that's what we meant. That's exactly what we meant. 735 00:40:51,076 --> 00:40:53,636 Speaker 1: But it came from It's interesting to though that those 736 00:40:53,636 --> 00:40:56,836 Speaker 1: compromises did come from a good place in you, in 737 00:40:56,876 --> 00:40:59,236 Speaker 1: that like you're like, at least it came from I 738 00:40:59,316 --> 00:41:01,556 Speaker 1: just I just want to honor that these people are trying. 739 00:41:01,356 --> 00:41:06,196 Speaker 2: To yeah, and just be getting tired of arguing or 740 00:41:06,356 --> 00:41:10,356 Speaker 2: just being like, well, that's what we gotta tape. That 741 00:41:10,396 --> 00:41:12,196 Speaker 2: person can't come back to the studio, so Let's make 742 00:41:12,236 --> 00:41:13,436 Speaker 2: the best with what this is. 743 00:41:13,316 --> 00:41:13,556 Speaker 3: You know. 744 00:41:15,676 --> 00:41:20,556 Speaker 2: And also, you know the contract that you signed coming 745 00:41:20,596 --> 00:41:23,516 Speaker 2: into the world to be an artist isn't like everything 746 00:41:23,556 --> 00:41:27,236 Speaker 2: I do will be perfect. I just was watching this 747 00:41:27,276 --> 00:41:30,276 Speaker 2: beautiful excerpt of an interview with Maya Angelou last night, 748 00:41:30,676 --> 00:41:34,396 Speaker 2: who's talking about recognizing that she's a being in process 749 00:41:34,836 --> 00:41:37,436 Speaker 2: above all else. She's a being in process, so she 750 00:41:37,476 --> 00:41:41,836 Speaker 2: doesn't try to affix herself to any version that worked 751 00:41:41,876 --> 00:41:44,996 Speaker 2: in the past, and nor is she even fully committed 752 00:41:45,036 --> 00:41:47,956 Speaker 2: to stating this version of who I am. What I think, 753 00:41:47,996 --> 00:41:51,916 Speaker 2: what I'm giving is final because we're in process. And 754 00:41:52,476 --> 00:41:55,876 Speaker 2: I feel it's really important for musicians of all ages. 755 00:41:55,916 --> 00:41:58,956 Speaker 2: But I want to say, especially young musicians, to stand 756 00:41:59,036 --> 00:42:03,596 Speaker 2: by the archive of what they give to the world, 757 00:42:03,756 --> 00:42:08,316 Speaker 2: because the archive also teaches about our evolution as creators. 758 00:42:08,836 --> 00:42:11,276 Speaker 2: You know, there's things that I've done that I ooh, 759 00:42:11,316 --> 00:42:14,436 Speaker 2: they're out in the world for every and I cringe, 760 00:42:14,476 --> 00:42:17,356 Speaker 2: you know, and it's like, well, that's part of the 761 00:42:17,436 --> 00:42:21,676 Speaker 2: archive that shows a human in process and evolution, and 762 00:42:22,796 --> 00:42:25,596 Speaker 2: that is that's what is interesting to me. I guess 763 00:42:25,676 --> 00:42:29,356 Speaker 2: about being on this journey of being someone who creates 764 00:42:29,956 --> 00:42:31,996 Speaker 2: that you can well, yep, That's what I was tripping 765 00:42:32,036 --> 00:42:34,716 Speaker 2: on listening to reading, and I really wanted to share 766 00:42:34,716 --> 00:42:35,196 Speaker 2: it forward. 767 00:42:35,316 --> 00:42:35,996 Speaker 3: Now maybe I. 768 00:42:36,036 --> 00:42:38,476 Speaker 2: Completely disagree with that, but there you have it, and 769 00:42:38,516 --> 00:42:40,676 Speaker 2: now I can show the evolution from there to hear. 770 00:42:40,876 --> 00:42:44,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, after this last break, we're back with the rest 771 00:42:44,396 --> 00:42:53,516 Speaker 1: of my conversation with Esperanza Spalding. That's why I really 772 00:42:54,276 --> 00:42:56,836 Speaker 1: also respect like people like well, the people who are 773 00:42:56,836 --> 00:42:58,716 Speaker 1: around like I mean, I guess Miles too, but that's 774 00:42:58,716 --> 00:43:02,316 Speaker 1: more as a state, but like Bob Dylan and Neil Young, 775 00:43:03,156 --> 00:43:08,436 Speaker 1: who like the guys who still actively make records, but 776 00:43:08,476 --> 00:43:12,876 Speaker 1: they also are constantly just going through the archives and 777 00:43:13,556 --> 00:43:16,356 Speaker 1: releasing old sketches of things, like you know, and You're like, 778 00:43:16,396 --> 00:43:18,916 Speaker 1: it's it's really valuable. It's really valuable to hear. 779 00:43:19,116 --> 00:43:21,836 Speaker 3: I think Mitchell too. 780 00:43:22,236 --> 00:43:25,156 Speaker 2: I mean, I think you're kind of talking about big names, 781 00:43:25,156 --> 00:43:27,676 Speaker 2: but I think Jerry Allen was also doing that. I 782 00:43:27,916 --> 00:43:30,716 Speaker 2: just last night was listening to the Marylyn Williams Collective, 783 00:43:31,436 --> 00:43:35,356 Speaker 2: and you know, that sounds so different than Grand River Crossings, 784 00:43:35,436 --> 00:43:38,836 Speaker 2: which sounds so different than the trio work with Paul 785 00:43:38,876 --> 00:43:41,116 Speaker 2: Motion and Charlie Hayden at the Vanguard, which sounds so 786 00:43:41,196 --> 00:43:46,796 Speaker 2: different than timelines. I'm just like, whoa you know, WHOA 787 00:43:46,836 --> 00:43:53,676 Speaker 2: here is a person who's like letting the whatever was 788 00:43:54,236 --> 00:43:57,676 Speaker 2: however the last project metabolized like what it brought, like, 789 00:43:58,396 --> 00:44:02,316 Speaker 2: you know, letting that point to whatever's next. 790 00:44:02,836 --> 00:44:04,916 Speaker 3: It's really possible. 791 00:44:05,076 --> 00:44:08,756 Speaker 2: I mean Wayne Shorter is a person like that. Ess 792 00:44:08,836 --> 00:44:11,836 Speaker 2: Mental a person like that. Tarylyn Carrington is a person 793 00:44:11,916 --> 00:44:12,236 Speaker 2: like that. 794 00:44:12,516 --> 00:44:14,796 Speaker 1: You know. Also the way Milton returned, like there's so 795 00:44:14,836 --> 00:44:18,196 Speaker 1: many there's something there's so many versions of Milt of 796 00:44:18,676 --> 00:44:20,676 Speaker 1: Milton doing his own oh yeah, you know, and I 797 00:44:20,756 --> 00:44:22,676 Speaker 1: just do like on any giving he's like that, I 798 00:44:22,716 --> 00:44:24,636 Speaker 1: love the first record, yeah, and it's like I love 799 00:44:24,676 --> 00:44:25,476 Speaker 1: all those songs. 800 00:44:25,596 --> 00:44:25,796 Speaker 2: Yeah. 801 00:44:25,836 --> 00:44:27,356 Speaker 1: And then it's like sometimes I like I want to 802 00:44:27,356 --> 00:44:29,396 Speaker 1: go just hear it, like the CTI version you know, 803 00:44:29,596 --> 00:44:33,316 Speaker 1: even later or you know that is also there. It 804 00:44:33,396 --> 00:44:36,996 Speaker 1: is incredible. At what point do you feel you finally 805 00:44:37,356 --> 00:44:40,596 Speaker 1: were able to put something into the world that felt 806 00:44:40,636 --> 00:44:43,876 Speaker 1: like this is what I intended to put out. 807 00:44:45,076 --> 00:44:49,156 Speaker 2: I really feel that Twelve Little Spells is what I 808 00:44:49,196 --> 00:44:55,276 Speaker 2: intended to put out. Like I feel like we and 809 00:44:55,276 --> 00:44:59,876 Speaker 2: Emily duplus evolution. Maybe it started with Emily du plus evolution, 810 00:45:01,876 --> 00:45:08,156 Speaker 2: but also at each point of creating or putting the 811 00:45:08,196 --> 00:45:10,916 Speaker 2: records out, like okay, we can really, I mean I 812 00:45:10,996 --> 00:45:13,156 Speaker 2: signed off. I'm like, okay, we can release this, you know, 813 00:45:14,116 --> 00:45:17,876 Speaker 2: so I'll say that, you know, I can stand by 814 00:45:17,876 --> 00:45:22,076 Speaker 2: them all. And I remember the feeling of Emily's Day 815 00:45:22,076 --> 00:45:26,276 Speaker 2: plus Evolution being like, you know, like nobody was gone 816 00:45:26,316 --> 00:45:30,756 Speaker 2: on this one. And also with twelve Little Spells, it 817 00:45:30,836 --> 00:45:35,756 Speaker 2: just felt so protected, you know, like we it felt 818 00:45:35,796 --> 00:45:40,996 Speaker 2: so much about the folks in the room were only 819 00:45:41,036 --> 00:45:44,876 Speaker 2: people who really cared about the music we were making 820 00:45:45,476 --> 00:45:51,316 Speaker 2: and really delivering like the potential, the fullest potential of 821 00:45:51,356 --> 00:45:53,716 Speaker 2: what these creators around this theme and this body of 822 00:45:53,756 --> 00:45:59,396 Speaker 2: work could give. And I want to leave you know, 823 00:45:59,436 --> 00:46:02,436 Speaker 2: the future open to maybe answer that question in ten 824 00:46:02,516 --> 00:46:04,476 Speaker 2: years and be like, oh, actually it was the one 825 00:46:04,476 --> 00:46:06,156 Speaker 2: that you know happened eight years from. 826 00:46:05,916 --> 00:46:09,556 Speaker 1: Today to the May angela point of never see a 827 00:46:09,596 --> 00:46:12,796 Speaker 1: fixed yeah right, yeah, and it could be the one 828 00:46:12,916 --> 00:46:13,836 Speaker 1: so now yeah yeah. 829 00:46:13,836 --> 00:46:19,636 Speaker 2: And also just because to like puncture the potential of 830 00:46:19,956 --> 00:46:25,076 Speaker 2: grandiosity or narcissistem to swell in this conversation, like it's 831 00:46:25,116 --> 00:46:28,116 Speaker 2: also like, yes, I think music is one of the 832 00:46:28,116 --> 00:46:30,956 Speaker 2: most powerful holy forces of Earth, and it's also just music. 833 00:46:31,036 --> 00:46:33,956 Speaker 2: You know what I mean, Like, it's also not that deep, 834 00:46:34,116 --> 00:46:37,676 Speaker 2: Like it's not like we make songs and we play 835 00:46:37,716 --> 00:46:39,556 Speaker 2: them and we put them out in the world, and 836 00:46:39,596 --> 00:46:42,396 Speaker 2: it's like just to be able to do that and 837 00:46:42,436 --> 00:46:46,876 Speaker 2: make a living, do that like good night, We're done here, fantastic, 838 00:46:46,916 --> 00:46:49,676 Speaker 2: everything's working good. You know, let's go plant a garden. 839 00:46:49,956 --> 00:46:54,276 Speaker 2: I also just don't want to get too precious or 840 00:46:54,316 --> 00:46:56,516 Speaker 2: too concerned or. 841 00:46:56,996 --> 00:46:59,036 Speaker 3: I don't know, make it like a bigger deal than 842 00:46:59,076 --> 00:47:01,476 Speaker 3: it needs to be. We're just doing our job. You know, 843 00:47:01,556 --> 00:47:02,476 Speaker 3: this is my job. 844 00:47:02,676 --> 00:47:05,596 Speaker 2: I do this for a living, and I do this 845 00:47:05,756 --> 00:47:08,516 Speaker 2: out of the deep passion in my heart that I 846 00:47:08,556 --> 00:47:11,836 Speaker 2: have for creating and for sounds and for working with people. 847 00:47:12,436 --> 00:47:17,036 Speaker 2: And like the worst thing that we could do some records, 848 00:47:17,116 --> 00:47:20,196 Speaker 2: like oh that's awful. That was all compromised for the 849 00:47:20,236 --> 00:47:21,276 Speaker 2: forces of industry. 850 00:47:21,476 --> 00:47:25,716 Speaker 1: So it's like and right, so what that deep? 851 00:47:25,796 --> 00:47:28,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, it'sody somebody, somebody's out there making the record. You know, 852 00:47:30,676 --> 00:47:34,196 Speaker 2: We're just one little cell in the body of music 853 00:47:34,236 --> 00:47:37,156 Speaker 2: on this earth, and that is such a privilege. So 854 00:47:37,836 --> 00:47:43,836 Speaker 2: I feel like even sometimes younger musicians will have this 855 00:47:44,036 --> 00:47:47,156 Speaker 2: kind of like almost like desperation in their voice, like 856 00:47:47,556 --> 00:47:49,356 Speaker 2: how do you find your voice, like how do you 857 00:47:49,636 --> 00:47:51,516 Speaker 2: how do you get into the industry, and like find 858 00:47:51,556 --> 00:47:54,916 Speaker 2: your voice and do your thing. And I can remember 859 00:47:55,076 --> 00:47:57,596 Speaker 2: that kind of like pressure, that feeling of pressure like 860 00:47:57,676 --> 00:47:59,756 Speaker 2: uh oh, you know, I gotta go do something as 861 00:47:59,756 --> 00:48:01,676 Speaker 2: a grown up now and make this thing I've invested 862 00:48:01,716 --> 00:48:02,156 Speaker 2: in work. 863 00:48:02,836 --> 00:48:04,356 Speaker 3: And I also try to. 864 00:48:04,356 --> 00:48:08,716 Speaker 2: Remind them like, you can't help it, you can't whatever 865 00:48:08,796 --> 00:48:11,876 Speaker 2: the hell you are whatever, even if you just want 866 00:48:11,876 --> 00:48:13,596 Speaker 2: to do Lady Gouggug covers for the rest of your 867 00:48:13,636 --> 00:48:17,916 Speaker 2: life in a club in South Korea and you know, 868 00:48:18,316 --> 00:48:21,716 Speaker 2: or whatever, do Elvis in personation, like whatever, whatever the 869 00:48:21,716 --> 00:48:26,956 Speaker 2: hell your thing is, it's gonna come out. It's gonna beautiful, 870 00:48:27,036 --> 00:48:30,676 Speaker 2: it's gonna be what it is. And the main thing 871 00:48:30,756 --> 00:48:32,396 Speaker 2: is are you enjoying doing it? 872 00:48:32,916 --> 00:48:34,276 Speaker 3: Can you do it? Do you want to do it? 873 00:48:35,036 --> 00:48:39,036 Speaker 3: And just in this life to get to find a 874 00:48:39,076 --> 00:48:41,156 Speaker 3: thing like that, you're winning. 875 00:48:41,476 --> 00:48:41,676 Speaker 1: Yeah. 876 00:48:41,836 --> 00:48:46,156 Speaker 3: So it's kind of like whatever the whatever you can. 877 00:48:46,196 --> 00:48:48,996 Speaker 2: Find at this point in time, that's a thing that 878 00:48:49,116 --> 00:48:51,316 Speaker 2: you like, that you do, that you sound like, even 879 00:48:51,356 --> 00:48:54,916 Speaker 2: if you think you're faking it, great, do that and 880 00:48:54,956 --> 00:48:57,956 Speaker 2: that's great, And then make sure you call your elders, 881 00:48:58,596 --> 00:49:03,356 Speaker 2: help your friends, who have kids, you know, support folks 882 00:49:03,396 --> 00:49:07,836 Speaker 2: who are disenfranchised, pay attention to your local politics, engage. 883 00:49:08,356 --> 00:49:08,956 Speaker 3: You know what I mean. 884 00:49:09,156 --> 00:49:11,596 Speaker 2: It's like kind of like, don't fill your brain with 885 00:49:11,636 --> 00:49:15,316 Speaker 2: all these existential concerns of the arts. Like you're a 886 00:49:15,436 --> 00:49:18,036 Speaker 2: human in a world and this is the job you 887 00:49:18,076 --> 00:49:19,596 Speaker 2: get to do and if. 888 00:49:19,476 --> 00:49:20,716 Speaker 3: You just keep doing, it's gonna work. 889 00:49:21,516 --> 00:49:24,596 Speaker 2: Don't worry, and now make sure you pay attention to 890 00:49:24,716 --> 00:49:28,996 Speaker 2: all the other stuff, because we can get very self absorbed. 891 00:49:29,836 --> 00:49:32,516 Speaker 1: It's amazing though, how you can't just accept it's at 892 00:49:32,556 --> 00:49:34,956 Speaker 1: a young at a tender age. It's hard to just accept, 893 00:49:35,076 --> 00:49:37,796 Speaker 1: like you can know that to be the absolute truth, 894 00:49:37,836 --> 00:49:40,996 Speaker 1: and it's really hard to sometimes accept that, right because 895 00:49:40,996 --> 00:49:43,476 Speaker 1: I can remember similarly the same things, you know what, 896 00:49:43,716 --> 00:49:46,636 Speaker 1: like those feelings, it's very hard to hard and. 897 00:49:46,596 --> 00:49:50,476 Speaker 2: We're being bombarded with the like messages of the hero 898 00:49:50,716 --> 00:49:54,676 Speaker 2: I'm using Lea Penman's phrase, the hero industrial complex, this 899 00:49:54,796 --> 00:49:57,756 Speaker 2: idea of like it doesn't count unless I'm the hero, 900 00:49:58,116 --> 00:50:01,716 Speaker 2: Like it doesn't count unless I am the star, right, 901 00:50:01,916 --> 00:50:06,036 Speaker 2: And that is a very that's that's like that's an 902 00:50:06,036 --> 00:50:09,476 Speaker 2: ominous weight. When you have a gift, you know, or 903 00:50:09,556 --> 00:50:11,316 Speaker 2: you have this thing that you love to do like, oh, 904 00:50:11,356 --> 00:50:13,436 Speaker 2: I love to play piano, and I really like like 905 00:50:13,676 --> 00:50:15,396 Speaker 2: I love soul music and I. 906 00:50:15,916 --> 00:50:17,156 Speaker 1: But we don't. 907 00:50:17,196 --> 00:50:19,716 Speaker 2: We don't have a lot of glorified images of like 908 00:50:19,756 --> 00:50:23,076 Speaker 2: a side person or a happy producer or an a ranger, 909 00:50:23,116 --> 00:50:25,836 Speaker 2: like a person who's film scoring, they're living their best life. 910 00:50:26,636 --> 00:50:29,356 Speaker 2: I feel, particularly, maybe particularly for musicians, this is kind 911 00:50:29,356 --> 00:50:31,596 Speaker 2: of like this pressure of like, oh my god, what 912 00:50:31,636 --> 00:50:34,316 Speaker 2: do I have to do to like make it, you know, 913 00:50:34,516 --> 00:50:38,036 Speaker 2: on top, or like get my esthetics together or whatever. 914 00:50:39,876 --> 00:50:44,116 Speaker 2: And that feels like pressure and concern that can be 915 00:50:44,196 --> 00:50:48,756 Speaker 2: kind of a waste, you know. Yeah, And I just 916 00:50:48,796 --> 00:50:53,836 Speaker 2: wonder about musicians that are pushing themselves past the place 917 00:50:53,876 --> 00:50:56,356 Speaker 2: that they'll actually derive the most pleasure and be able 918 00:50:56,396 --> 00:50:58,596 Speaker 2: to contribute them most because of this kind of pressure 919 00:50:58,636 --> 00:51:03,396 Speaker 2: to be more, do more when and the the also 920 00:51:03,836 --> 00:51:07,676 Speaker 2: when we get the kind of very two dimensional representations 921 00:51:07,716 --> 00:51:10,156 Speaker 2: of the artists that we love so much, they're completely 922 00:51:10,156 --> 00:51:14,636 Speaker 2: decontextualized from their family, their community, their elders, their teachers, 923 00:51:14,956 --> 00:51:18,676 Speaker 2: their students. So it can also be really hard to 924 00:51:19,196 --> 00:51:23,316 Speaker 2: get a sense of, you know, an artists at work 925 00:51:23,316 --> 00:51:27,796 Speaker 2: in their ecosystem, and the music industry has no is 926 00:51:27,876 --> 00:51:32,316 Speaker 2: not interested in your long term wellness. So it's also 927 00:51:32,356 --> 00:51:36,076 Speaker 2: something about maybe what I really mean, what I was 928 00:51:36,076 --> 00:51:37,956 Speaker 2: just being mean, like, don't become a narcissist. I think 929 00:51:37,956 --> 00:51:41,596 Speaker 2: what I really mean is like, actually learning how to 930 00:51:41,596 --> 00:51:45,316 Speaker 2: cultivate one's gift in a in a healthy balance with 931 00:51:46,316 --> 00:51:51,476 Speaker 2: being available to and in accountability to your community is 932 00:51:51,716 --> 00:51:57,836 Speaker 2: actually the most sustainable and uh nourishing, soul nourishing way 933 00:51:57,876 --> 00:52:00,596 Speaker 2: to go about this. And you can't sustain as a 934 00:52:00,676 --> 00:52:04,716 Speaker 2: musician if your soul isn't nourished. So maybe that's that's 935 00:52:04,716 --> 00:52:05,676 Speaker 2: what I'm really trying. 936 00:52:05,436 --> 00:52:05,876 Speaker 3: To speak to. 937 00:52:06,716 --> 00:52:09,516 Speaker 1: You know what's interesting? I mean, you know, you're you're right, 938 00:52:09,556 --> 00:52:13,436 Speaker 1: like there aren't like we I was reading when Benny 939 00:52:13,436 --> 00:52:18,396 Speaker 1: Golson passed away. I found power, Power, Power. I found 940 00:52:18,396 --> 00:52:23,356 Speaker 1: a what do you call it? A an oral history 941 00:52:23,836 --> 00:52:26,476 Speaker 1: interview that he had given maybe in like two thousand 942 00:52:26,516 --> 00:52:28,756 Speaker 1: and two or something, and I was reading through it 943 00:52:29,276 --> 00:52:34,556 Speaker 1: and he was talking about Oliver Nelson going to Hollywood 944 00:52:35,476 --> 00:52:41,436 Speaker 1: to score film and TV. And you know, I mean, 945 00:52:41,516 --> 00:52:45,556 Speaker 1: sadly Oliver, you know, doesn't liver. He passes away in 946 00:52:45,636 --> 00:52:48,756 Speaker 1: They're seven seventy one, seventy two, forty forty one, forty two, 947 00:52:48,836 --> 00:52:51,316 Speaker 1: you know, like, but you think about it, like I 948 00:52:51,356 --> 00:52:54,356 Speaker 1: was thinking about Oliver Nelson, and it's like, here's this 949 00:52:55,676 --> 00:52:58,196 Speaker 1: person with an immense talent that I don't think unless 950 00:52:58,276 --> 00:53:01,796 Speaker 1: you really care about the music that you might not 951 00:53:01,956 --> 00:53:04,836 Speaker 1: know you're not gonna his name is not gonna you know, 952 00:53:05,516 --> 00:53:08,516 Speaker 1: fel like Duke Ellington, you know what I mean. So, 953 00:53:08,636 --> 00:53:10,636 Speaker 1: but it's like, is this guy who like had all 954 00:53:10,676 --> 00:53:14,316 Speaker 1: that talent led a band like and probably had design, 955 00:53:14,356 --> 00:53:16,516 Speaker 1: probably wanted to continue to bleed a band, but it's 956 00:53:16,556 --> 00:53:19,676 Speaker 1: like what was available was to go do this work 957 00:53:19,716 --> 00:53:23,956 Speaker 1: and doing filming TV. And like I think Benny's point 958 00:53:23,996 --> 00:53:26,996 Speaker 1: from remembering correctly was like people kind of looked down 959 00:53:26,996 --> 00:53:28,116 Speaker 1: on it a bit. But then also a lot of 960 00:53:28,156 --> 00:53:30,236 Speaker 1: people are going to him from work too, you know, 961 00:53:30,516 --> 00:53:32,996 Speaker 1: so at some point it's like you kind of just 962 00:53:34,036 --> 00:53:36,316 Speaker 1: you know, you do the work you can where you're 963 00:53:36,356 --> 00:53:38,556 Speaker 1: able to do it. Who cares? 964 00:53:38,996 --> 00:53:39,236 Speaker 2: Well? 965 00:53:39,956 --> 00:53:43,316 Speaker 3: The funny thing is a haha. 966 00:53:44,596 --> 00:53:48,036 Speaker 2: You know, it's uncomfortable to admit or it's uncomfortable to 967 00:53:48,076 --> 00:53:48,956 Speaker 2: broach the subject. 968 00:53:48,996 --> 00:53:54,316 Speaker 3: But there are the strands of desire for validation woven 969 00:53:54,436 --> 00:53:58,076 Speaker 3: into our pursuits of notoriety, right, I mean isn't that 970 00:53:58,116 --> 00:54:01,916 Speaker 3: part of what notoriety is. You have a lot of 971 00:54:02,876 --> 00:54:06,916 Speaker 3: people in your inner circle and outer circle. 972 00:54:06,916 --> 00:54:10,956 Speaker 2: Validating the value of what you do, and I don't 973 00:54:10,996 --> 00:54:12,756 Speaker 2: know what you do with that. That can be a 974 00:54:12,876 --> 00:54:16,796 Speaker 2: very powerful motivating force that gets people practicing or finishing 975 00:54:16,796 --> 00:54:19,236 Speaker 2: that song or getting that heartbreak out into a tune 976 00:54:19,236 --> 00:54:22,156 Speaker 2: that becomes a hit that reaches somebody in the remote 977 00:54:22,196 --> 00:54:24,436 Speaker 2: corner of the world that needed to hear that song 978 00:54:24,476 --> 00:54:26,756 Speaker 2: that made them want to get up that day. You know, 979 00:54:27,196 --> 00:54:30,276 Speaker 2: it's like, it's not to judge the motivation, but it's 980 00:54:30,316 --> 00:54:34,516 Speaker 2: something to check out because it begs the question, like, huh, 981 00:54:35,396 --> 00:54:38,036 Speaker 2: what's going on with the musicians who are not as 982 00:54:38,076 --> 00:54:43,636 Speaker 2: attached to the external validation but are deeply invested in 983 00:54:43,796 --> 00:54:50,036 Speaker 2: the relationship with their music and deeply passionate about finding 984 00:54:50,636 --> 00:54:55,396 Speaker 2: and cultivating and creating and maybe don't see themselves as 985 00:54:55,436 --> 00:54:57,916 Speaker 2: ever having because of how they look, or their stature 986 00:54:58,036 --> 00:55:01,996 Speaker 2: or their class or who knows what, and it changes 987 00:55:01,996 --> 00:55:07,636 Speaker 2: across different decades, But who either are not motivated by 988 00:55:07,676 --> 00:55:10,636 Speaker 2: that potential for validation or don't believe that they have, 989 00:55:11,236 --> 00:55:15,236 Speaker 2: you know, whatever it is to even go achieve that 990 00:55:15,316 --> 00:55:20,036 Speaker 2: validation and instead turn that energy towards their other things, 991 00:55:20,876 --> 00:55:24,396 Speaker 2: and you know, allah the story about Oliver Nelson, and 992 00:55:24,436 --> 00:55:26,756 Speaker 2: really so many I can think of about thirty five 993 00:55:26,756 --> 00:55:29,636 Speaker 2: people just off the top of my head who are 994 00:55:29,636 --> 00:55:32,796 Speaker 2: not interested in that part of it, the external validation 995 00:55:33,676 --> 00:55:38,076 Speaker 2: and or maybe of their own self esteem or you know, 996 00:55:38,156 --> 00:55:40,196 Speaker 2: messages they've gotten from the industry about like oh you 997 00:55:40,236 --> 00:55:42,916 Speaker 2: don't quite fit, you know, let's expected, and how are 998 00:55:42,916 --> 00:55:47,676 Speaker 2: you going to show up? And they have thriving, economically 999 00:55:47,796 --> 00:55:54,036 Speaker 2: viable lives in music, and that's just something to know about, 1000 00:55:54,196 --> 00:55:58,596 Speaker 2: you know, it's something to contemplate. And I think for 1001 00:55:58,836 --> 00:56:04,076 Speaker 2: artists creating, I don't think we should ever shame our motivations. 1002 00:56:04,396 --> 00:56:04,636 Speaker 3: Ever. 1003 00:56:05,356 --> 00:56:08,156 Speaker 2: I don't think we should ever like shame or feel 1004 00:56:08,196 --> 00:56:13,036 Speaker 2: humiliated about the shadow motivations that maybe get us from 1005 00:56:13,036 --> 00:56:16,476 Speaker 2: point A to point B. But that doesn't mean that 1006 00:56:16,596 --> 00:56:20,756 Speaker 2: we can't investigate them. Yeah, and once we become aware 1007 00:56:20,796 --> 00:56:22,236 Speaker 2: of them, you can. 1008 00:56:22,076 --> 00:56:27,716 Speaker 3: Make decisions, informed decisions, informed decisions like ooh, am I am. 1009 00:56:27,756 --> 00:56:30,396 Speaker 3: I stand up all night every night hustling. 1010 00:56:30,076 --> 00:56:33,356 Speaker 2: On this project because I just want to be seen 1011 00:56:33,396 --> 00:56:35,316 Speaker 2: as being able to do or like whatever. 1012 00:56:35,796 --> 00:56:37,316 Speaker 3: Maybe is that what I really want to do? Or 1013 00:56:37,316 --> 00:56:38,436 Speaker 3: is it for the money or is it for the 1014 00:56:38,916 --> 00:56:40,556 Speaker 3: and do I feel do I like that? 1015 00:56:40,636 --> 00:56:40,796 Speaker 1: Is that? 1016 00:56:40,956 --> 00:56:43,276 Speaker 2: Is that what I want to be driven by or 1017 00:56:43,556 --> 00:56:45,876 Speaker 2: invested in? And like there's no wrong answer. 1018 00:56:46,476 --> 00:56:48,316 Speaker 1: You want to be money In the moment, I got it. 1019 00:56:48,956 --> 00:56:51,396 Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll tell. 1020 00:56:51,276 --> 00:56:52,396 Speaker 3: You right here, right now. 1021 00:56:52,876 --> 00:56:55,036 Speaker 2: The only reason that not the only reason, but the 1022 00:56:55,076 --> 00:57:00,356 Speaker 2: main reason that I propelled myself forward to go like 1023 00:57:00,516 --> 00:57:03,596 Speaker 2: accept this scholarship at Berkeley and moved to Boston. I 1024 00:57:03,636 --> 00:57:06,036 Speaker 2: was very happy in Portland is because somebody had a 1025 00:57:06,036 --> 00:57:10,236 Speaker 2: crush on went to MIT and I was like, oh, well, 1026 00:57:10,236 --> 00:57:12,676 Speaker 2: I'll be in Boston, like I'll be closer, like maybe 1027 00:57:13,156 --> 00:57:15,676 Speaker 2: you know, like worked at this whole fantasy in my mind, 1028 00:57:16,436 --> 00:57:19,556 Speaker 2: and it's like, is that a petty I was seventeen 1029 00:57:19,636 --> 00:57:24,556 Speaker 2: years old, you know, but hey, that motive, you. 1030 00:57:24,516 --> 00:57:25,916 Speaker 3: Know, the passion got me there. 1031 00:57:26,036 --> 00:57:26,276 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1032 00:57:26,316 --> 00:57:29,876 Speaker 2: I never saw the person again, but I was in 1033 00:57:29,876 --> 00:57:34,956 Speaker 2: Boston and my life blossomed. So it's just something about 1034 00:57:35,156 --> 00:57:38,156 Speaker 2: the exercise of investigating the motives and then, like you said, 1035 00:57:38,156 --> 00:57:40,236 Speaker 2: making informed decisions. 1036 00:57:40,636 --> 00:57:44,436 Speaker 3: And it's you know, when I think about how messed. 1037 00:57:44,196 --> 00:57:49,716 Speaker 2: Up and you know, sick and egotistical and womanizing and 1038 00:57:49,756 --> 00:57:50,676 Speaker 2: abusing some of. 1039 00:57:50,636 --> 00:57:53,276 Speaker 3: My favorite musicians were. 1040 00:57:53,876 --> 00:57:56,476 Speaker 2: It's like, wow, you know, medicine and beauty can really 1041 00:57:56,476 --> 00:57:57,836 Speaker 2: come out of anywhere. 1042 00:57:57,876 --> 00:58:01,116 Speaker 1: How do you? Yeah, how have you? How do you 1043 00:58:01,116 --> 00:58:03,516 Speaker 1: square that? I guess it just managed that you don't 1044 00:58:03,596 --> 00:58:04,676 Speaker 1: you do well? 1045 00:58:04,676 --> 00:58:07,836 Speaker 3: We're more than I think. 1046 00:58:07,996 --> 00:58:11,756 Speaker 2: We're all more than our shadows, We're all more than 1047 00:58:11,796 --> 00:58:15,756 Speaker 2: our wounds, we're all more than our egos, and we're all, 1048 00:58:16,156 --> 00:58:17,236 Speaker 2: let me not say more. 1049 00:58:18,076 --> 00:58:20,196 Speaker 3: We have a lot of qualities, we have a lot 1050 00:58:20,236 --> 00:58:21,396 Speaker 3: of things. 1051 00:58:21,156 --> 00:58:26,396 Speaker 2: To give, and I don't I don't believe that, you know, 1052 00:58:26,676 --> 00:58:32,076 Speaker 2: a person's folly or humanness is grounds for dismissing the 1053 00:58:32,116 --> 00:58:36,076 Speaker 2: totality of their contribution. So a person who's abused women, 1054 00:58:36,556 --> 00:58:42,116 Speaker 2: who has you know, betrayed people's trusts or been engaged 1055 00:58:42,116 --> 00:58:45,116 Speaker 2: in womanizing behavior, if they can make, if they've made 1056 00:58:45,116 --> 00:58:49,956 Speaker 2: some medicine that helps me identify like my gifts and 1057 00:58:49,996 --> 00:58:52,876 Speaker 2: nourishes me and helps me heal and move forward in 1058 00:58:52,916 --> 00:58:54,156 Speaker 2: my life, I'm. 1059 00:58:53,956 --> 00:58:56,916 Speaker 3: Going to use those gifts. I'm going to use them wholeheartedly. 1060 00:58:59,356 --> 00:59:02,516 Speaker 2: I might investigate some of their you know, guidance or 1061 00:59:02,556 --> 00:59:04,916 Speaker 2: you know, testimony about what it is to be a humanist. Well, 1062 00:59:04,956 --> 00:59:06,356 Speaker 2: I might look at it with like a little grade 1063 00:59:06,356 --> 00:59:10,796 Speaker 2: of assault, we be like, okay, but yeah, I think, 1064 00:59:12,356 --> 00:59:17,916 Speaker 2: you know, allowing that immensity of complexity and contradiction that's 1065 00:59:17,956 --> 00:59:22,276 Speaker 2: inherent in being a human is an important thread of 1066 00:59:22,316 --> 00:59:27,116 Speaker 2: like abolitionist work too, And I really like, I couldn't 1067 00:59:27,116 --> 00:59:29,836 Speaker 2: call myself an abolitionist because I'm not doing the work 1068 00:59:29,876 --> 00:59:34,956 Speaker 2: actively in community. But oh I'm wearing my Innocence Project sweatshirt, 1069 00:59:35,316 --> 00:59:37,956 Speaker 2: which is definitely a part of abolition work. But I 1070 00:59:37,996 --> 00:59:41,876 Speaker 2: feel abolition and the work of abolition asks all of 1071 00:59:41,956 --> 00:59:47,396 Speaker 2: us to embrace the totality of our humanity and know 1072 00:59:47,516 --> 00:59:51,116 Speaker 2: that we are all in process and know that none 1073 00:59:51,196 --> 00:59:54,996 Speaker 2: of us are only the worst things that we've done 1074 00:59:55,276 --> 00:59:57,876 Speaker 2: are the most harmful things that we've done. Yeah. So 1075 00:59:57,956 --> 01:00:01,716 Speaker 2: so almost like the same way that dimensions of abolition 1076 01:00:01,996 --> 01:00:05,836 Speaker 2: ask that we still consider folks who have done heinous 1077 01:00:05,916 --> 01:00:09,396 Speaker 2: things members of our community that we're responsible for. Kind 1078 01:00:09,396 --> 01:00:11,716 Speaker 2: of like you practice that internally with the members of 1079 01:00:11,756 --> 01:00:16,156 Speaker 2: your internal community, you know, or the the internal community 1080 01:00:15,716 --> 01:00:20,196 Speaker 2: of the artists or crafts people or creators or philosophers 1081 01:00:20,276 --> 01:00:22,716 Speaker 2: or whoever whose work is nourishing you. You know, it's 1082 01:00:22,716 --> 01:00:25,356 Speaker 2: almost like by taking in their work, they become a 1083 01:00:25,356 --> 01:00:26,716 Speaker 2: part of your community. 1084 01:00:27,196 --> 01:00:29,796 Speaker 1: And I don't know in ways that are instructive too, 1085 01:00:29,836 --> 01:00:31,956 Speaker 1: Like I feel like we have sometimes when you cast 1086 01:00:31,996 --> 01:00:37,036 Speaker 1: away or write off people who have done even heinous things, 1087 01:00:37,076 --> 01:00:40,356 Speaker 1: let alone just maybe morally a little off putting, like 1088 01:00:41,396 --> 01:00:46,116 Speaker 1: you're almost like not almost, Sometimes I feel like it's 1089 01:00:46,236 --> 01:00:50,836 Speaker 1: you're you're then casting You can learn as much from 1090 01:00:50,916 --> 01:00:52,956 Speaker 1: the negative examples as the positive, and so it's like 1091 01:00:52,996 --> 01:00:57,396 Speaker 1: someone's acknowledging that, Wow, maybe I'm also capable of those things. 1092 01:00:57,436 --> 01:00:59,796 Speaker 1: Keeping those people as a part of your community, not 1093 01:00:59,836 --> 01:01:01,676 Speaker 1: completely right in the moth, allows you to realize that 1094 01:01:02,716 --> 01:01:05,956 Speaker 1: we're all sort of capable of both really amazing things 1095 01:01:05,956 --> 01:01:08,916 Speaker 1: and really maybe also awful things. And how you then 1096 01:01:08,956 --> 01:01:12,916 Speaker 1: make how can I actually make decisions to not do 1097 01:01:13,076 --> 01:01:15,276 Speaker 1: that thing, you know, and maybe do more of that thing? 1098 01:01:15,596 --> 01:01:16,156 Speaker 3: Yes, and. 1099 01:01:18,436 --> 01:01:22,436 Speaker 2: I feel like the tricky part, Yes, I agree with that, 1100 01:01:22,556 --> 01:01:26,276 Speaker 2: and I would add to it. You know, the practice 1101 01:01:26,316 --> 01:01:32,276 Speaker 2: of keeping like tending community which includes humans who have 1102 01:01:32,316 --> 01:01:34,916 Speaker 2: done things you don't agree with, isn't just for what 1103 01:01:35,076 --> 01:01:40,396 Speaker 2: the benefit can have to you. It also says something about, 1104 01:01:42,476 --> 01:01:46,596 Speaker 2: like I'm actually willing to invest in the keeping of 1105 01:01:46,836 --> 01:01:48,916 Speaker 2: another human because they're another human. 1106 01:01:49,316 --> 01:01:50,556 Speaker 3: You know that there's not a. 1107 01:01:50,516 --> 01:01:55,516 Speaker 2: Contingency on a person's right to be a member of community. 1108 01:01:55,796 --> 01:02:02,076 Speaker 2: And I also think about the fear that maybe that 1109 01:02:02,236 --> 01:02:09,036 Speaker 2: the subconscious fear that we have around tending really complex 1110 01:02:09,796 --> 01:02:15,036 Speaker 2: conflict and even what seems like antagonism because most of 1111 01:02:15,116 --> 01:02:18,756 Speaker 2: us have never actually been through the cycle, like we 1112 01:02:18,796 --> 01:02:20,836 Speaker 2: don't know what's on the other side of saying Like 1113 01:02:20,876 --> 01:02:24,236 Speaker 2: I think about, you know, what's been happening with what 1114 01:02:24,276 --> 01:02:26,716 Speaker 2: was happening a lot in a particular season in the 1115 01:02:26,796 --> 01:02:29,836 Speaker 2: jazz world of these educators or band leaders. It coming 1116 01:02:29,916 --> 01:02:33,916 Speaker 2: out that they had done these like really icky, not 1117 01:02:34,076 --> 01:02:39,876 Speaker 2: okay violating actions, you know, towards students, like sexually inappropriate behavior. 1118 01:02:40,276 --> 01:02:42,836 Speaker 2: And we're talking, yeah, in the last I was like 1119 01:02:42,956 --> 01:02:45,716 Speaker 2: last decade, and this happened with a dear mentor of 1120 01:02:45,716 --> 01:02:51,276 Speaker 2: mine in Portland, and what I saw happening was this 1121 01:02:51,796 --> 01:02:55,996 Speaker 2: iron curtain or ironwalk coming down. It's like, oh my god, 1122 01:02:56,196 --> 01:02:58,556 Speaker 2: we don't know, we actually don't know how to deal 1123 01:02:58,556 --> 01:03:01,716 Speaker 2: with this. We actually don't know what reconciliation and community 1124 01:03:01,756 --> 01:03:05,716 Speaker 2: could look like. We don't know what accountability and repair 1125 01:03:06,116 --> 01:03:08,196 Speaker 2: could look like. We actually we have we have so 1126 01:03:08,396 --> 01:03:11,716 Speaker 2: little idea that the only option on the plate is 1127 01:03:11,756 --> 01:03:16,356 Speaker 2: like you have to go like by you don't exist anymore. 1128 01:03:16,716 --> 01:03:19,196 Speaker 3: It's like that, It's like whatever. 1129 01:03:19,036 --> 01:03:22,756 Speaker 2: Other connections or contributions up to that point, it was 1130 01:03:22,796 --> 01:03:24,676 Speaker 2: just like you're out. 1131 01:03:25,596 --> 01:03:26,196 Speaker 3: And that. 1132 01:03:27,836 --> 01:03:31,196 Speaker 2: I agree, It doesn't matter what I think, but I'll 1133 01:03:31,236 --> 01:03:33,156 Speaker 2: say just my little two cents in at all is 1134 01:03:33,196 --> 01:03:37,436 Speaker 2: like protecting people who have been violated absolutely prior to 1135 01:03:37,516 --> 01:03:42,236 Speaker 2: number one. And what I feel that whole response exposes 1136 01:03:42,516 --> 01:03:47,596 Speaker 2: is how inequipped we are actually as humans in quote 1137 01:03:47,676 --> 01:03:50,836 Speaker 2: unquote community, whether that community is an institution or a 1138 01:03:50,876 --> 01:03:54,476 Speaker 2: field like jazz music, to like stay with the trouble, 1139 01:03:55,276 --> 01:03:57,636 Speaker 2: to stay with the trouble and go like, actually, what 1140 01:03:57,716 --> 01:03:59,756 Speaker 2: if we don't just get rid of this person? Like 1141 01:04:00,276 --> 01:04:07,316 Speaker 2: what is protection and repair and accountability and responsibility actually 1142 01:04:07,316 --> 01:04:10,796 Speaker 2: look like? And that like stew of questions feels like 1143 01:04:11,036 --> 01:04:13,636 Speaker 2: what so scary that you're just like, ah, you know, 1144 01:04:14,076 --> 01:04:17,516 Speaker 2: it's like get out. I can't. And I I wish 1145 01:04:17,876 --> 01:04:22,556 Speaker 2: I hope for me and and all humans and. 1146 01:04:22,556 --> 01:04:27,556 Speaker 3: Folks who have been through all sides of you know, harm. 1147 01:04:27,356 --> 01:04:31,676 Speaker 2: I wish for us more robust palette of options, you 1148 01:04:31,716 --> 01:04:36,116 Speaker 2: know that we can utilize when harms happen, because we 1149 01:04:36,196 --> 01:04:41,716 Speaker 2: are gonna harm each other that's right. We're we're really 1150 01:04:41,796 --> 01:04:44,316 Speaker 2: messed up, you know, most of us are really just 1151 01:04:44,396 --> 01:04:47,036 Speaker 2: by the time you get to the point of leaving. 1152 01:04:46,796 --> 01:04:48,716 Speaker 3: Your house and seeing another person, you already messed up. 1153 01:04:49,396 --> 01:04:57,116 Speaker 2: So I mean important too, It's just that's here we are, 1154 01:04:57,236 --> 01:05:01,276 Speaker 2: you know. So yeah, I'll just add that I wish 1155 01:05:01,276 --> 01:05:03,516 Speaker 2: that for my community and musicians. I wish that for 1156 01:05:03,596 --> 01:05:05,716 Speaker 2: my community, my family, and the community of folks I 1157 01:05:05,716 --> 01:05:08,116 Speaker 2: work with in Portland, and it really just anywhere there's 1158 01:05:08,196 --> 01:05:10,476 Speaker 2: humans who have the POTENTI the harm. I wish for 1159 01:05:10,556 --> 01:05:12,956 Speaker 2: us to have a more robust, like I said, pallette 1160 01:05:12,956 --> 01:05:15,756 Speaker 2: of tools and skills, and there are a lot of 1161 01:05:15,796 --> 01:05:20,316 Speaker 2: people who are tirelessly cultivating those practices, you know. 1162 01:05:21,516 --> 01:05:23,636 Speaker 3: So it's not like we're in a void. They're there. 1163 01:05:23,796 --> 01:05:24,236 Speaker 1: It just. 1164 01:05:25,716 --> 01:05:28,676 Speaker 2: The images of car serial response is what we see 1165 01:05:28,676 --> 01:05:31,756 Speaker 2: the most often. So I think the knee jerk reaction 1166 01:05:31,876 --> 01:05:32,476 Speaker 2: is to go to that. 1167 01:05:33,196 --> 01:05:33,996 Speaker 1: It's our default. 1168 01:05:34,236 --> 01:05:35,116 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a default. 1169 01:05:37,076 --> 01:05:39,116 Speaker 1: So much more I want to talk about, but I 1170 01:05:39,156 --> 01:05:42,236 Speaker 1: don't do it another time. Thanks so much for making 1171 01:05:42,236 --> 01:05:47,076 Speaker 1: the time. We put links in the episode description to 1172 01:05:47,156 --> 01:05:51,076 Speaker 1: Milton Esperanza's collaborative album and also the two playlists featuring 1173 01:05:51,116 --> 01:05:54,836 Speaker 1: some of our favorites from both Milton Nastrumento and Esperanzis 1174 01:05:54,836 --> 01:05:58,156 Speaker 1: Spaulding and again. To see the video version of this episode, 1175 01:05:58,196 --> 01:06:01,916 Speaker 1: visit YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast and be 1176 01:06:01,956 --> 01:06:04,756 Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. 1177 01:06:05,396 --> 01:06:08,556 Speaker 1: You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken 1178 01:06:08,596 --> 01:06:11,716 Speaker 1: Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing 1179 01:06:11,756 --> 01:06:15,036 Speaker 1: help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is 1180 01:06:15,076 --> 01:06:19,316 Speaker 1: Ben Holliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. 1181 01:06:19,716 --> 01:06:22,516 Speaker 1: If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider 1182 01:06:22,556 --> 01:06:26,916 Speaker 1: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription 1183 01:06:26,996 --> 01:06:29,756 Speaker 1: that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four 1184 01:06:29,916 --> 01:06:33,036 Speaker 1: ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple 1185 01:06:33,076 --> 01:06:36,876 Speaker 1: podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember 1186 01:06:36,876 --> 01:06:39,476 Speaker 1: to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. 1187 01:06:39,636 --> 01:06:42,396 Speaker 1: Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.