1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Hey there, folks, it is Wednesday, December tenth. Do you 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 1: have any last words? A Florida death row inmate which 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: asked that last night right before he was given a 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: lethal injection, and this morning people are still confused about 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: his last words. And with that, welcome to this episode 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: of Amy and TJ and Robes. We have been covering 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: a lot of executions. We hear about last words, last meals. Look, 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: we have that to talk about from last night. We 9 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: have another execution coming up tomorrow night in the Supreme 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: Court today on There's Wednesday is taking up a very 11 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: major execution related case. It's been an execution year, really, 12 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: it feels like in this country. 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 2: Yes, and this is an execution podcast because there are 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 2: three major headlines that you just described to talk about 15 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: right now. We can begin with last night in Florida, 16 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 2: fifty eight year old Mark Allan Gerald's pronounced dead at 17 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: six fifteen pm lethal injection. And there was a description 18 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 2: of how that lethal injection went by the witnesses who 19 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 2: were there in the room. They said that he took 20 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 2: about a dozen deep breaths. They say his body quivered 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 2: and twitched, but within three to four minutes he was 22 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 2: still and pronounced dead a few moments later, But it 23 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: was before that all took place his last words that 24 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 2: got a lot of attention from folks. Of course, he 25 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 2: was asked it he addressed someone by name, but the 26 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 2: name was not discernible, it was inaudible. They didn't know 27 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: who he said. But after he said this person's name, 28 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: he went on to say, I'm sorry that I missed you. 29 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 2: I loved you every day. That left a lot of 30 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 2: head scratching. 31 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 3: Hey, here we out. 32 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: We don't know who he was talking to and what 33 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: he was talking about. Really, it's the last words he'll 34 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: ever have. Maybe somebody will come out and explain and 35 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: who he was talking to. Maybe that person was in 36 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: the room and they'll tell us. 37 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 2: But so far no, And it was interesting as far 38 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 2: as who came up and who showed up. Look, this 39 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 2: is a crime that happened in nineteen eighty nine and 40 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 2: the victim in this case, her name was Tresa Pettibone. 41 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: But the state said that eight people on behalf of 42 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: Tresa were there for that execution to witness that execution. 43 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 2: That is fairly unheard of at this point, but it 44 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: just went to show the gravity of the situation. In fact, 45 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: her family gave a statement following the death of her murderer. 46 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 2: And a lot of times we've been reporting on families 47 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: not wanting executions to go forward, wanting there to be 48 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 2: not the eye for an eye, a tooth for a 49 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 2: tooth sentiment. But that was not the case from the 50 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 2: Pettybone family. 51 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 1: Oh and you have to appreciate now what your heart 52 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: goes out to them for. Yes, they've lost someone, but 53 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 1: why do you have to sit and wait thirty something 54 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: years for somebody to be executed? Why are you having 55 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 1: to deal with another appeal and having to be contacted 56 00:02:58,000 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: by the state once again to say that this. 57 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: Is why, why why why? 58 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: That's Look, I'm not plotting, and we've come around and 59 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: talked about here openly about issues with the death penalty. 60 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: But you have Santa, since one argument he makes is 61 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: that we got I'm signing these because we've had these 62 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: families waiting for too long. That's an argument, at least 63 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: at least when you talk to this family. 64 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 3: Okay, I get that. 65 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, think about all the executions we have covered this year, 66 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 2: but particularly in the last few months. Can you think 67 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: of any of them that have been within even a 68 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 2: decade or two decades. We're talking three decades almost for 69 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: all of the executions we've been describing, they were all 70 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties, nineteen nineties. 71 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, so he's moving that and process along. And look, Florida, 72 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: we talked about there on a record pace. This was 73 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: their eighteenth of the year, and they've the record before. 74 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: This was eight the most they had ever executed in 75 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: one year with eight people, and now they're up to 76 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: eighteen in will or at least scheduled to get to 77 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: nineteen by the time the month is out. And again 78 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: Desanta's we talked about as well, there are more drugs 79 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: now available and there was a little delay because some 80 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: of these things are seen as cruel and unusual, and 81 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: now states have more access to the drugs they need 82 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: to execute people. 83 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 3: Fine, but Florida ain't messing around here. 84 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 2: They are not messing around and so yes, and I 85 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 2: think the Pettibone family was certainly appreciative of that because 86 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: in their statement here is what they wrote. This was 87 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 2: right after the execution took place. They said, tomorrow, when 88 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 2: we wake up, it will be the first time in 89 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: nearly thirty seven years that we don't have to worry 90 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 2: about another appeal being filed or another law changing that 91 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: could potentially thwart the justice we have been fighting so 92 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 2: hard for so long. 93 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: And my argument, if there should be a law if 94 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: the family of the victim doesn't want the person executed, 95 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: we should follow their wishes. 96 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 2: Right. 97 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: They shouldn't decide if the person dies, but they should 98 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: decide if the person doesn't die. This was a family 99 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: that was clearly supportive of this going through. 100 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: They were supportive, and honestly so was Gerald's because his 101 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 2: death warrant was actually signed last month by DeSantis and 102 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: he told the judge, I don't want to pursue any 103 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 2: further appeals, and the judge said, no problem, signed off 104 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 2: on Gerald's decision. I think he's the second inmate we've 105 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 2: heard that. Actually, it's remarkable. We've talked about this as well. 106 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 2: Despite the conditions that it might be to be in 107 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: death row or to be in a maximum security prison 108 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: for decades, it seems as though, regardless of the conditions, 109 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: these inmates want to live. For the most part, it's 110 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: rare that you see an inmate not fight for a 111 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 2: stay of execution. 112 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's just the second out of the eighteen one 113 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: of the guys didn't as well. But yeah, no matter what, 114 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: to the end, we've seen that desperately fighting to stay 115 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: a lot. 116 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that would be the case with tomorrow's execution, 117 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 2: Thursday's execution out of Tennessee. Even though we've already heard 118 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: from the governor on this, he said, yeah, I'm not 119 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 2: going to get involved in this execution. This is Harold 120 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 2: Wayne Nichols, sixty four years old, but he is fighting 121 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 2: his execution, even though the governor made that statement and 122 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: made it pretty clear he's not getting involved. 123 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, at least you don't have to wait to see 124 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: if that phone's going to ring. I mean, that's one 125 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: of those things it's up to the last minute. And 126 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: we had clemency granted in one case that we covered 127 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: then that phone literally was ringing a minute before his execution. 128 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: So this at least gets that mystery off the table. 129 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 2: Yes, there will be no nail biting on this one, 130 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 2: but he This is an interesting case because Nichols confessed 131 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: to killing Karen Pulley. She was a twenty year old 132 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: student at Chattanooga State University back in nineteen eighty eight, 133 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 2: and he was convicted for the rape and murder of her, 134 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 2: so he confessed to that. He also confessed to raping 135 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 2: several other women in the Chattanooga area. He said he 136 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: was sorry, he expressed remorse, but he did say, hey, 137 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 2: you know what, if y'all hadn't caught me, I would 138 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,679 Speaker 2: have continued this violent behavior. But it's because he admitted 139 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 2: it and because he feels sorry for it, he thinks, 140 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: or at least that's the argument his attorneys are making 141 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 2: for him to not be executed. 142 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: I mean his attorneys, other attorneys, other families, other people 143 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: in the legal field. And we've seen cases like this 144 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: where there is a hint of leniency. I don't want 145 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: to talk about just in death row death penalty cases, 146 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: but they do give credit for someone who is remorseful, 147 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: for someone who has taken accountability and responsibility for their crimes. 148 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: There is some element of that. So should he just 149 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: be life in prison because he confessed, You can't get 150 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: that out there. Then everybody who had a death penalty 151 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: case would just say, you know what, I'm a plead 152 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: guilty and take the death penalty off the table. 153 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 3: He thinks it should be off the table. 154 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be interesting? 155 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 3: Though? 156 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: From a financial and a logistical standpoint, if you actually 157 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 2: had someone plead guilty and not have to go through 158 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: the lengthy trial process, then the lengthy appeals processes that 159 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: have to are process sees. How do I how you 160 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 2: say that that have to take place when you have 161 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: a death penalty case. Wouldn't it be interesting if that 162 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: was potentially I mean, I do think that some prosecutors, 163 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 2: it's on a case by case basis, do take that 164 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: into consideration whether or not they pursue the death penalty. 165 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: If you plead guilty and you save us and spare 166 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: us the time and money of a trial, we will 167 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 2: consider giving you life in prison without the possibility of parole. 168 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: I don't know how many people get that option, because 169 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: it obviously has to be a very major murder case. 170 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: But do you take your chances I'm going to spend 171 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: the rest of my life in prison or I'm going 172 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: to face an execution in thirty years? 173 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that is the reality, right, that's the reality. 174 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: It might just take your chances the hell with it. 175 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: Might as well try trial because those aren't good options. 176 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 177 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: I might die of natural causes in thirty years anyway, 178 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 2: so who cares? But in his clemency petition from his attorneys. 179 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 2: They actually said this, and I didn't realize this. They 180 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 2: say that Nichols would be the first person in the 181 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 2: state of Tennessee to be executed for a crime that 182 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 2: he pleaded guilty to since the day death penalty was 183 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 2: reinstated in nineteen seventy eight. 184 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: And some people would say, so what you did the 185 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: crime period, I don't give if you confess to it, 186 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: a play guilty to it or not. You did it, 187 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 1: so that changes nothing. So why are you today in 188 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: this moment trying to make that argument. I could see 189 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 1: the pushback. 190 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 2: On that he did the crime, but he wants to 191 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 2: do the time. He doesn't want it to end. I 192 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: guess is his points. He's willing to serve for the 193 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 2: rest of his life. But and at this point now, 194 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 2: if the governor says he's not going to get involved, 195 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 2: it doesn't seem as though sixty four year old Nichols 196 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 2: has much of a shot. So he is scheduled to 197 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: die tomorrow by lethal injection in the state of Tennessee. 198 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: But there is another major issue that the Supreme Court 199 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 2: is taking up. This is about an execution that state 200 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,599 Speaker 2: lawmakers or at least the Attorney General's office wants to schedule, 201 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 2: but has been told no. His death penalty or his 202 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 2: death conviction has been vacated to a life sentence, but 203 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 2: they want that to change, and they've gotten the Supreme 204 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 2: Court involved, and the Supreme Court is taking a look 205 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: at this case out of Alabama today. 206 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: All right, folks will continue here on Amy and TJ. 207 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: A number of execution headlines. A man executed last night 208 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: in Florida. That's their eighteenth of the year, a record pace. 209 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: There on another man's schedule to die tomorrow night in Tennessee. 210 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: And today the Supreme Court is hearing arguments in the case. 211 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: They could change who gets executed in this country and 212 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: robes this. I was first struck by this story to 213 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: hear that a state is fighting so desperately to kill 214 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 1: a man that they will take it to the Supreme Court, 215 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: like we want him dead so bad that we're willing 216 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: to take it this far when lower courts have said 217 00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: you shouldn't execute this man. 218 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are two lower federal courts who have said 219 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: that Joseph Smith should not be put to death because 220 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 2: they say that he has an intellectual disability. And so 221 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: the big question for the Supreme Court to try and 222 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 2: figure out now is what determines an intellectual disability. And 223 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 2: the lower courts and several people who are mental health 224 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 2: professionals say one IQ test, or even multiple IQ tests 225 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: alone should not determine whether or not somebody is mentally 226 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: incapable or has a mental disability that's severe enough that 227 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: they shouldn't be executed for their crime. That IQ test, 228 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: they actually have a number seventy correct. 229 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 3: That they landed on. 230 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: And look, the Supreme Court itself set precedent in two 231 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: thousand and two with a case essentially saying who is 232 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: or isn't considered intellectually disabled for the purpose of x acution, 233 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: And so seventy was kind of made as some kind 234 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: of a number a marker there. So if you score 235 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: seventy or below on an IQ test, you're considered to 236 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: be intellectually disabled. The problem with this, particularly inmate role, 237 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: is that he has scored on several tests between seventy 238 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: two and seventy eight. Obviously that's not great, right, Obviously 239 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: has a history, and his teachers and people in his 240 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: past have come back and they've they've done all these 241 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: assessments of where he's been So the Supreme Court is saying, actually, 242 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: you got to take into more in consideration than just 243 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: that number, because those are not always that dead on 244 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 1: an IQ test. So that makes sense. We can't just 245 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 1: say seventy and below, then you're this. If you score 246 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: seventy three, then you need to consider some other factors. 247 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: You can't just say, ah, it's not seventy. That is 248 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: what the Supreme Court precedent said, and that is what the. 249 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 3: Fight is over. 250 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 2: Now. Yeah, I mean, and that makes a lot of sense. 251 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 2: I'm not sure how accurate an IQ test is. In 252 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 2: the fact that he's taken five IQ tests and he's 253 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 2: ranged from seventy two to seventy eight just shows you 254 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: there is a margin of error. And that's seventy two 255 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 2: two score you would think would fall within the margin 256 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 2: of error of seventy being the case. And at least 257 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 2: the lower courts agreed that you have to take into 258 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 2: other considerations. You pointed out. They brought in some grade 259 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: school teachers, they brought in other anecdotal evidence from people 260 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 2: who have interviewed him and spoken with him and talked 261 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: with him and said, this man is intellectually disabled. And 262 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 2: so those two courts both agreed and said this sentence 263 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 2: needs to be his death sentence needs to be vacated. 264 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: He needs to be given life in prison. But yeah, 265 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 2: Alabama's like they're not having it. They are pursuing it, 266 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 2: taking it all the way to the Supreme Court. 267 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: And I'm sure they put in and the statements, put 268 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: out some statements and I'm sure they say the people 269 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: of justice demand and we want to follow through and 270 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: what the people have ruled. I'm sure that's it, and 271 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: they're following and they want to pursue this to the end. 272 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: And maybe they want to. I haven't seen about the 273 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: families on this one. Maybe they do want to pursue 274 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: this to the end. But you talk about robes expense, 275 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: how much this costs, not just to hows these particular inmates. 276 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: Death row inmates have to be the most expensive on 277 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: the block because they're in court constantly appeals. Right, the 278 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: government has to fight that stuff as they send these appeals. 279 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: So this is a guy, were like, just leave them 280 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: in prison now, Like that is the idea that we 281 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: are fighting so desperately to kill a guy? 282 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: Is? 283 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 3: Hey, it's justice, is what we call justice. 284 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: And this matters this case is really important because this 285 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: is going to affect potentially so many other cases right now. 286 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: One hundred and forty two people in this country since 287 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 2: two thousand and two, since that Supreme Court ruling you 288 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: talked about, have had their death sentences vacated because they 289 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 2: met the standards of being intellectually disabled. So we're talking 290 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: about a number of inmates already who I should say 291 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 2: benefited from or at least their lives were spared because 292 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 2: of this two thousand and two ruling. If they go 293 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: against that, if they rule in any other way, it's 294 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 2: going to effect I'm certain, hundreds of cases from this 295 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: day forward. Now here's what Alabama argued. They said, Joseph 296 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: Smith is not intellectually disabled, and the Eighth Amendment does 297 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: not override the death sentence he earned for murdering Dirk 298 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 2: Van Dam, and that is the victim in this case. 299 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 2: According to court documents, they say Smith somehow gave this 300 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: Van Dam thirty five blunt force injuries from a saw 301 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 2: using a saw on his neck, shoulder, and back. I mean, 302 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 2: it was a brutal, vicious, horrific murder. And so they're 303 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 2: pointing to the viciousness of it and saying this man 304 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 2: knew what he was doing. He was not intellectually disabled 305 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 2: while he was committing this atrocity. 306 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: Okay, I get Okay, they want to pursue it, that's fine, 307 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: and the families and other people might want justice. 308 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 3: And this needs to be just the idea that it's 309 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 3: worth it to us, like we are fighting to kill 310 00:15:59,400 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 3: this guy. 311 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: It's just that idea is something. But yeah, these headlines 312 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: and the hell of a year. It has been the 313 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: highest numbers we've seen. What do we have to forty 314 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: five forty six now executions in this country, highest number 315 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: we've seen in a decade plus at this point. 316 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 3: So one more scheduled next week. That's Florida, I believe right. 317 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, Florida should be at nineteen by next week. 318 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: And that's the last one scheduled in the country. We'll 319 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: see what happens in Tennessee. We'll keep an eye on 320 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: these arguments at the Supreme Court. 321 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 2: All right, And with that, everyone, thank you for listening 322 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 2: to us. I'm Amy Roeboch alongside TJ. Holmes. We will 323 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: talk to you soon.