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Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 1: a liability, it's a real gift.

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Speaker 2: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point

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Speaker 2: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

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Speaker 2: If you can die before you die, then you can

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Speaker 2: really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought

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Speaker 2: I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know what to

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Speaker 2: do because there was no internet.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything

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Speaker 1: is hard.

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Speaker 3: Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first

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Speaker 3: and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting

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Speaker 3: you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become

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Speaker 3: more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the

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Speaker 3: world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy.

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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of Therapy podcast.

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Speaker 1: My name is Kat, I am the host, and quick

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Speaker 1: reminder before we get into the good stuff that although

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Speaker 1: this podcast is hosted by a therapists and it is

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Speaker 1: called You Need Therapy, it does not serve as a

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Speaker 1: replacement or a substitute for any actual mental health services.

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Speaker 1: So this week's couch Talks prompted me to do a

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Speaker 1: little deeper of a dive on compassion fatigue, and I'm

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Speaker 1: glad I did because I actually learned something very interesting

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Speaker 1: that I'm excited to share with you guys. And if

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Speaker 1: you don't know what Couch Talks is or you didn't

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Speaker 1: listen to it, it's the episodes that I put out

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Speaker 1: on Wednesday, and they are responses to listener emails and

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Speaker 1: listener questions. And this past week a listener brought a

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Speaker 1: question about her job in the helping profession and wondered

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Speaker 1: if the burnout and the fatigue she was experiencing was

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Speaker 1: something that therapists like me also experienced, and that's this

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Speaker 1: feeling where it gets harder to be motivated to care

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Speaker 1: for others and to care from them well. And if

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Speaker 1: you are interested in that response, you can go listen

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Speaker 1: to it. But as I was preparing that episode, I

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Speaker 1: was like, huh, I have some questions about this, and

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Speaker 1: I also think there's a larger conversation to be had

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Speaker 1: in talking about why sometimes at a deeper level that happens.

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Speaker 1: And what I do believe is that compassion and this

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Speaker 1: is an opinion of mine, This is not research base,

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Speaker 1: but I believe that compassion fatigue is something and was

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Speaker 1: something that was easier to talk about during the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's because the extremes make it more

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Speaker 1: digestible or excusable or just understandable. Oh, I get how

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Speaker 1: you would feel that way. Because of the world that

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Speaker 1: we're living in right now, it just makes more sense

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Speaker 1: and we can sit with the reality of it easier.

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Speaker 1: But compassion fatigue didn't go away when our world started

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Speaker 1: to open back up. It's very much still a thing

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Speaker 1: that happens to a lot of us, can happen to

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Speaker 1: a lot of us very often.

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Speaker 2: And I like this.

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Speaker 1: I found that a lot of people refer and have

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Speaker 1: been referring to campassion fatigue as the cost of caring.

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Speaker 1: Now I say I like this. I don't like that

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Speaker 1: that is something that is a thing. I just like that.

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Speaker 2: As a description.

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Speaker 1: It's this cost of carrying what happens when we care

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Speaker 1: a lot, and we almost cross that line of carrying

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Speaker 1: too much, which, when it comes down to it, our

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Speaker 1: bodies are wired to help us care. They're wired to

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Speaker 1: help us move through crisis. They are wired for those things,

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Speaker 1: especially when I say crisis in the big moments, when

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Speaker 1: crisis happens, we experience large surges of adrenaline, and these

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Speaker 1: surges give us the energy to hit the ground and

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Speaker 1: start running. And that's not just about crisis that happens

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Speaker 1: to us. It's when a friend's loved one dies, when

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Speaker 1: a friend has a baby, when a family not saying that.

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Speaker 2: Babies are bad.

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Speaker 1: Like, there's just a lot of energy and there's ways

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Speaker 1: to help and things to be done. When a friend

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Speaker 1: has a baby and has that big change of life.

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Speaker 1: When a friend or family member loses a job or

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Speaker 1: goes through any storm, we also get that surge to help.

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Speaker 1: We get that hit of I'll be right over when

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Speaker 1: a friend goes through a breakup.

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Speaker 2: I mean most of us have been there.

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Speaker 1: When a friend, a good friend goes through a breakup,

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Speaker 1: I personally will be the first one to.

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Speaker 2: Drive to the friend's house. I'll talk to you for hours.

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Speaker 1: I'll let you repeat yourself as many times as you need.

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Speaker 1: I have the surge of adrenaline to carry me through

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Speaker 1: those somewhat exhausting conversations, and I'm happy to do it.

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Speaker 1: But the surge of adrenaline eventually wears out. Yet what

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Speaker 1: we do is we still hold ourselves to the expectation

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Speaker 1: of caring for those people at the same level. It's

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Speaker 1: like our adrenaline doesn't tell us, hey, we're slowing down

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Speaker 1: or running out. You might need to take a break

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Speaker 1: or do this or think about what you need. Adrenaline

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Speaker 1: doesn't tells that. It just kind of starts to deplete,

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Speaker 1: and we're still trying to act in that same manner.

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Speaker 1: You make the drive to your friend's house every night

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Speaker 1: for two weeks, you have the same conversation.

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Speaker 2: About the breakup with your friend. For two months.

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Speaker 1: You leave any event with your friend because they can

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Speaker 1: break down at the drop of the pin. And please

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Speaker 1: don't hear that I am shaming that friend who needs

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Speaker 1: and is asking for those things, the friend that's going

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Speaker 1: through a hard time. Trust me, I've been that person.

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Speaker 1: There is one no timeline for grief. And also, you're

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Speaker 1: a human that's just going through emotions, and that's very

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Speaker 1: much allowed in my book. I'm talking to not that friend.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking to the other friend who continues to show

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Speaker 1: up day after day, who doesn't allow themselves to actually

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Speaker 1: have emotions. You start to notice yourself getting irritable, wanting

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Speaker 1: to push people away, yet you.

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Speaker 2: Still tuck on.

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Speaker 1: It's like I'm getting annoyed talking to them or needing

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Speaker 1: to do this or this or that. You may be

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Speaker 1: start to gossip about them, but you still force yourself

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Speaker 1: to be there at the same level for that friend,

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Speaker 1: even if it's not coming off at the same level,

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Speaker 1: and you don't listen to the cues of I'm tired,

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Speaker 1: I'm exhausted, because you know this is what good friends do,

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Speaker 1: and what I'm hearing in that scenario, granted I'm.

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Speaker 2: Guilty of it.

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Speaker 1: Two is a little codependency. We become so focused on

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Speaker 1: the needs of others that we unintentionally, and I air

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Speaker 1: quotes that unintentionally forget to check.

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Speaker 2: In with our needs.

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Speaker 1: And the reason that I air quote the unintentional because

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Speaker 1: I really think that we do this dance where we

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Speaker 1: tell ourselves a story about what's more important because we

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Speaker 1: aren't in crisis, so I have to take care of them.

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Speaker 1: But really we're telling ourselves that story. We're creating that

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Speaker 1: story now in a perfect world, when we were talking

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Speaker 1: about the kind of crisis in an individual manner above,

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Speaker 1: there is that rhythm of crisis that's supposed to happen.

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Speaker 2: You take care of things with the.

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Speaker 1: Adrenaline surge and then eventually we come back down to

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Speaker 1: normal and then we carry on with life. However, many

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Speaker 1: of us don't have those one and done experiences, and

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Speaker 1: the mixture of the codependent tendencies and over identifying with

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Speaker 1: others emotions with the repeated exposure doesn't really create the

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Speaker 1: container for that normal cycle to actually happen. So the

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Speaker 1: pattern that is created like what's supposed to happen, doesn't

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Speaker 1: work with what actually happens. Our crises are lasting longer

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Speaker 1: than our single adrenaline surges, and or we are experiencing

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Speaker 1: one crisis after another after another after another. And for

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Speaker 1: those who are in the helping professions, we can actually

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Speaker 1: live in crisis management. It's like every day we are

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Speaker 1: in crisis, some kind of crisis. But compassion fatigue is

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Speaker 1: not reserved for just a professional setting. If we have

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Speaker 1: a sick loved one that we are caring for, maybe

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Speaker 1: that person actually lives in our house. If we have

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Speaker 1: a loved one that struggles with addiction, whether or not

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Speaker 1: they are living with us or not, that creates this system.

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Speaker 1: If we are a parent who has a job and

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Speaker 1: also cares for their kids, they're constantly taking care of

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Speaker 1: other needs before their own, and there's always something to do.

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Speaker 1: All of these experiences plus tons more. I can't make

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Speaker 1: a list because the list would be this whole episode.

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Speaker 1: They create the constant or they include the constant shoving

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Speaker 1: of our own needs to take care of something that

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Speaker 1: tells us, and then we tell ourselves is more important

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Speaker 1: than us. And maybe some times that's true. But we've

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Speaker 1: all heard that age old saying we can't pour from

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Speaker 1: an empty cup, and when we force ourselves to do

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Speaker 1: it anyway, what we are pouring gets a little weird.

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Speaker 1: And that's where this compassion fatigue stuff comes in. And

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Speaker 1: the result is someone who seemingly lives a life they enjoy,

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Speaker 1: but they start asking themselves why they are so unhappy.

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Speaker 1: You know, I like my job, I have great friends. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I just came back from this awesome trip. It was

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Speaker 1: so fun. But I start wondering, why do I feel

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Speaker 1: so awful when all of these things are going well

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Speaker 1: for me. So the symptoms of compassion fatigue can include

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Speaker 1: being irritated or frustrated most of the time, feeling worthless,

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Speaker 1: feeling these large bouts of sadness, wanting to isolate yourself,

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Speaker 1: feeling overwhelmed, feeling anxious, just feeling like.

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Speaker 2: You're not yourself.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes today compassion fatigue is also referred to as

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Speaker 1: secondary vicarious stress disorder, which it's comparable to PTSD, but

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Speaker 1: it's it's not actually PTSD because if you have this,

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Speaker 1: you don't have PTSD. Secondary vicar stress disorder is what

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Speaker 1: happens when you are carrying for people who have experienced

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Speaker 1: PTSD or or are experiencing it, and you don't have it,

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Speaker 1: but you take on some of the symptoms as if

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Speaker 1: they're your own. So, in the early nineteen nineties, this

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Speaker 1: guy named doctor Charles Figley, who is at two Lane University,

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Speaker 1: define compassion fatigue and this is what he defined it as.

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Speaker 1: So in the early nineteen nineties, this guy named doctor

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Speaker 1: Charles Fhigley, who is at two Lane.

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Speaker 2: University, define compassion.

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Speaker 1: Fatigue and this is what he defined it as the deep, physical, emotional,

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Speaker 1: and spiritual exhaustion that can result from working day to

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Speaker 1: day in an intense caregiving environment. He said that it

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Speaker 1: is the emotional and physical burden created by caring for

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Speaker 1: others in distress. And he is the one that I

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Speaker 1: have found to have first referred to this as the

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Speaker 1: cost of caring. However, as I was starting to dig

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Speaker 1: deeper into compassion fatigue, this is some of the stuff

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Speaker 1: that I found that was so interesting that I really

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Speaker 1: want to share with you guys. More recently, the idea

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Speaker 1: of what compassion fatigue really is has been starting to shift.

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Speaker 1: Instead of just seeing it as fatigue and compassion, a

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Speaker 1: loss of compassion depleting compassion, what is called compassion fatigue

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Speaker 1: might actually be empathic distress fatigue. And this all is

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Speaker 1: going to make sense as I explain it. And first

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Speaker 1: before I get into what empathic distress fatigue is, when

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Speaker 1: it comes down to comparative suffering, I've been taught, and

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Speaker 1: I believe that compassion is infinite, right. We were taught

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Speaker 1: that there is an infinite amount of compassion. We don't

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Speaker 1: have this compassion pie and we have to ration it

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Speaker 1: out each day. And that is why my stuff gets

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Speaker 1: to be important, even though if it seems smaller than

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Speaker 1: somebody else's stuff, or my trauma still gets to matter

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Speaker 1: to me, even if somebody else's trauma seems bigger or

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Speaker 1: larger or more intense. Because there's infinite compassion, everything gets

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Speaker 1: to matter. So if that's true, then this compassion fatigue

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Speaker 1: thing goes against that.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't really make sense.

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Speaker 1: How is it possible to be burnt out of offering

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Speaker 1: compassion if we have an overflowing amount and abundance of it.

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Speaker 1: And maybe because we've been missing some key parts of

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Speaker 1: what compassion fatigue really is. And it's not that we

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Speaker 1: ran out of compassion. We have to fill up a

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Speaker 1: compassion bank. So in an article titled moving from Compassion

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Speaker 1: Fatigue to Compassion Resilience, Part one, compassion is described to

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Speaker 1: consist of three parts, noticing, feeling, and responding, and the

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Speaker 1: feeling part is connected to empathy. Empathy is the emotion

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Speaker 1: I think most of us understand what it is, but

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Speaker 1: at a deeper level, empathy is the emotion that allows

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Speaker 1: us to resonate with someone else's feelings with the understanding

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Speaker 1: that the other person is the source of the emotion.

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Speaker 1: It is not my emotion, and I think most of

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Speaker 1: us assume when we experience empathy then we automatically move

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Speaker 1: towards a compassionate response, and this happens a lot, but

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Speaker 1: sometimes it doesn't because of how hard those feelings can

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Speaker 1: be to sit with. When we are exposed to the

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Speaker 1: suffering of someone else. We can experience both empathic concern

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Speaker 1: and empathic distress, and the empathic concern is compassion. That's

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Speaker 1: what we think we automatically move to, but we don't

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Speaker 1: automatically move to that, And whether we experience one or

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Speaker 1: the other, the concern or the distress has a lot

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Speaker 1: to do with our ability to tolerate distress, our ability

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Speaker 1: to tolerate hard stuff without becoming overwhelmed and dysregulated by it.

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Speaker 1: So when we over identify with someone else's feelings or

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Speaker 1: experience experiences and then we become personally distressed, we are

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Speaker 1: focusing too much on our own discomfort and tend to

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Speaker 1: want to distance ourselves or take away that feeling, and

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Speaker 1: that would not allow us to really offer true compassion.

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Speaker 1: For example, if I am overidentifying with a client's stuff

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Speaker 1: too much and I'm like, I want to make these

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Speaker 1: feelings go away, I might move to a very solution

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Speaker 1: focused way of being a therapist. I want to fix this,

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Speaker 1: I want to solve a solution. I want a da

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Speaker 1: da da da. I don't really validate and offer them

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Speaker 1: compassion and allow them to sit in that and really

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Speaker 1: allow them to move through that at their own pace,

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Speaker 1: not really how I personally want to long term operate

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Speaker 1: as a therapist. And remember when I defined empathy above,

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Speaker 1: it is resonating with a feeling. Why also maintaining an

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Speaker 1: emotionally separate sense of self.

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Speaker 2: I know that I'm.

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Speaker 1: Resonating with you, but I know that the source of

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Speaker 1: these emotions are not mine, So I'm not feeling your feelings.

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Speaker 2: I'm resonating with your feelings.

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Speaker 1: So empathic distress happens when we can no longer hold

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Speaker 1: the distinction of self and the other person in this space,

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Speaker 1: it's natural for somebody to want to withdraw, to want

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Speaker 1: to get away from that pain in instead of wanting

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Speaker 1: to lean in and offer support. So in the article

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Speaker 1: moving from Compassion Fatigue to Compassion Resilience, Part two, they

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Speaker 1: describe that, and this is going to be a lot

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Speaker 1: of heavier information, so you might have to like listen

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Speaker 1: to it and then rewind it and then listen to

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Speaker 1: it again.

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Speaker 2: So just hang with me.

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Speaker 1: They describe that neuroimaging has shown us that self orientation

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Speaker 1: with empathic distress activates the brain areas involved in the

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Speaker 1: processing of threat or pain. So with chronic empathic distress,

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Speaker 1: the dopamine levels with the brain circuits that mediate reward

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Speaker 1: and motivation become depleted, and so the ongoing depletion of

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Speaker 1: dopamine from repeated episodes of empathic distress leads to burnout,

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Speaker 1: which makes sense now adopting a other orientation, keeping that

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Speaker 1: those feelings separate with empathic concern, which is compassion activates

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Speaker 1: different areas of the brain. So compassion activates the areas

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Speaker 1: of the brain linked to reward and affiliation and generates

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Speaker 1: positive emotions towards suffering, all of which motivate, not hinder

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Speaker 1: helping behavior. So in this article they say that compassion

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Speaker 1: may even be viewed as an emotion regulation strategy that

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Speaker 1: buffers or counteracts the negative emotions through the generation of

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Speaker 1: positive emotions. So compassion allows us in a nutshell, in

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Speaker 1: that sense, having compassion gives us that buffering where I

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Speaker 1: can sit with these tough emotions in the easier manner

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Speaker 1: because I'm having the positive emotions that I get from

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Speaker 1: the act of offering compassion, because it does, in a

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Speaker 1: sense feel good to offer support, which is fascinating to me.

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Speaker 1: So all of this to be said, maybe it's not

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Speaker 1: compassion that we're lack when we're experiencing compassion fatigue. And

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Speaker 1: I want people to really hear that because I think

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Speaker 1: in my personal experience, when I am experiencing compassion fatigue,

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Speaker 1: I can feel kind of bad about myself.

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Speaker 2: I feel shame.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, that's my job, and wait, what does

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Speaker 1: that say about me if I can't offer compassion to

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Speaker 1: people that are going through something tough, like what is

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Speaker 1: wrong with me? But it doesn't sound like it's a

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Speaker 1: compassion that we are lacking. It sounds like we're going

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Speaker 1: through distress and we aren't able to regulate our emotions

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Speaker 1: the same way. So again, it's not compassion that we're lacking.

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Speaker 1: You're not a worse human than this other person. It's

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Speaker 1: not compassion that we ran out of. We're lacking the

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Speaker 1: ability to properly regulate our emotions. So when we talk

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Speaker 1: about what we need when we experience compassion fatigue, we

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Speaker 1: often talk about the same thing that allows us to

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Speaker 1: build back up our emotional regulatory bank. We in a

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Speaker 1: very simple way to explain this, we destress, right, so

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Speaker 1: we don't go home, take a bath, engage in self care,

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Speaker 1: hang out with friends, and start depositing more compassion into

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Speaker 1: our compassion bank.

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Speaker 2: That's not what happens.

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Speaker 1: We engage in practices that allow us to regulate our

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Speaker 1: nervous system, those same things I just said, go home,

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Speaker 1: take a bath, engage in self care, hang out with friends,

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Speaker 1: whatever it is that allows you to destress, to settle

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Speaker 1: your nervous system. That's what we're doing. We think that

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Speaker 1: we're getting. Oh, I need some space to build up

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Speaker 1: more compassion. No, you're creating a space so you can

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Speaker 1: have a better time, and easier time, and a better

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Speaker 1: shot at regulating your emotions. The compassion is already there.

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Speaker 1: We just have to be in a space where we

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Speaker 1: can access it in order to use it. And I

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Speaker 1: want to close this out in a tangible way. So

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Speaker 1: I asked the three therapists that work at Three Quarts Therapy,

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Speaker 1: my practice, how they recognize that they are moving into

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Speaker 1: a space of compassion fatigue, and what they do to

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Speaker 1: regulate that. And I want to share some of the answers.

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Speaker 1: So one person said, I recognize it by dread or

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Speaker 1: by being short and overly critical. Because I don't usually

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Speaker 1: experience a lot of judgment. I become overly solution focused

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Speaker 1: and I care less about a lot, which I love

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Speaker 1: this answer because I do that same thing overly, and

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Speaker 1: I mentioned it above overly solution focus. I want to

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Speaker 1: find an issue so we can have this pain, this frustration,

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Speaker 1: these feelings that I don't like and I don't want

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Speaker 1: to sit with. I want them to be gone. So

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Speaker 1: she said, I like to journal, I retreat, I voice,

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Speaker 1: text cat vents, I have more quiet time. I do

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Speaker 1: hot yoga, and I don't commit to social plans. So

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Speaker 1: you do things that allow you to regulate and come

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Speaker 1: back down to that balance. Another therapist said, I think

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Speaker 1: I recognize compassion fatigue when I consistently dread seeing clients

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Speaker 1: and get overwhelmed more easily by small things, and I

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Speaker 1: get very irritable towards the people I love when asked

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Speaker 1: to do something helpful or care or literally asked anything.

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Speaker 1: I usually journal out my frustrations and clear my weekend

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Speaker 1: for self care time. I also vent to my therapist friends.

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Speaker 1: And then another therapist said, I recognize it coming up

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Speaker 1: when I don't feel excited about going into work. I

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Speaker 1: recognize it when I'm counting down the minutes in every session.

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Speaker 1: And what I do is I take time off. I

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Speaker 1: create more work boundaries. I think about lessening my caseload

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Speaker 1: in life, I create more alone time or spend time

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Speaker 1: with my partner, and I'm also more intentional about one

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Speaker 1: on one time with friends instead of hanging out in

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Speaker 1: big groups. And so I wanted to share those to

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Speaker 1: give you some tangible ideas of what it feels like

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Speaker 1: for certain people and how it doesn't feel like them.

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Speaker 1: But none of them are saying I decide I hate

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Speaker 1: my job. And that's what's really interesting about especially those

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Speaker 1: who are in the helping profession, but also think about

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Speaker 1: when we're experiencing compassion fatigue.

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Speaker 2: When we are caring for a loved one. It's not

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Speaker 2: that usually I hate that.

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Speaker 1: I think about if my mom has to move in

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Speaker 1: with me and I become her caretaker, I want to

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Speaker 1: be able to do that. I would happily do that.

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Speaker 1: I would rather that than other options. And at the

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Speaker 1: same time, that is going to essentially move me in

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Speaker 1: at times to a place where I need to regulate myself.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna get overwhelmed. So it's not that I decide

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Speaker 1: that I hate that I have to.

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Speaker 2: Help my mom.

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Speaker 1: This is future focused and with my job now, it's

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Speaker 1: not that I decide that I hate my job or

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Speaker 1: I learned that my job is not for me. It's

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Speaker 1: that I have to have these keys, these clues that say, hey,

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Speaker 1: you're overwhelmed, you've taken on too much. You're pushing past

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Speaker 1: what you have. So there are some things to pull

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Speaker 1: you back into that space where you can offer what

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Speaker 1: you know that you want and love to offer, and

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Speaker 1: you can do what you want and love to do.

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Speaker 1: Much like this is popping into my head because I'm

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Speaker 1: rewatching all ted Lasso. But think about professional athletes. They

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Speaker 1: can burn out their bodies. They have to rest their bodies,

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Speaker 1: they have to recover, they have to do things that

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Speaker 1: allow them to continue to do what they love. It's

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Speaker 1: not that when their body they pull a muscle, or

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Speaker 1: they do this, or they overwork this.

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Speaker 2: Part or whatever. You know.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a sports physical therapists person, so don't have

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Speaker 1: a technical words to use. But when they have an injury,

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Speaker 1: it's not that they decide, oh well, I hate my

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Speaker 1: job and I hate playing this sport. It's I have

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Speaker 1: got to rest so I can recover, so I can

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Speaker 1: go back and do the things that I love. And

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Speaker 1: so I want to encourage everybody out there one this

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Speaker 1: is something that we all experience at times. We all

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Speaker 1: can experience. It doesn't say anything negative about you. What

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Speaker 1: it does is it says, Hey, I'm not recovering the

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Speaker 1: way that my body needs to. I'm pushing my body

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Speaker 1: past its limit. And I really think it's going to

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Speaker 1: be helpful for me. And I think for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people to start thinking about this is Oh, I

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Speaker 1: haven't run out of compassion. I don't have less compassion.

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Speaker 1: I don't have less care than these other people. I

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Speaker 1: just might have a smaller window of tolerance or I've

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Speaker 1: pushed myself past my window of tolerance and that person hasn't.

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Speaker 2: So instead of comparing the amount of.

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Speaker 1: Compassion I might have with somebody else, it's we all

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Speaker 1: have infinite compassion. However, we all have to be able

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Speaker 1: to set ourselves up so we can access that compassion.

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Speaker 2: So that is going to do it for today.

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Speaker 1: If you guys have any questions, feedback, comments, you can

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Speaker 1: send an email to me Katherine at You Need Therapy Podcast.

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Speaker 1: If you have any feedback you want to give to me,

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Speaker 1: you can send that there as well. Please, if you

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Speaker 1: have not done so, rate and review the podcast wherever

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Speaker 1: you listen to it. That is so helpful for us

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Speaker 1: and I really love. Actually I try not to read

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Speaker 1: the reviews on those platforms.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I have read reviews on other people's podcasts and people

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Speaker 1: can be quite ruthless. But I really do love reading

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Speaker 1: the feedback that you send, whether it's on Instagram or

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Speaker 1: in an email. So I appreciate when you guys reach

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Speaker 1: out and do that. Like I mentioned before, I talk

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Speaker 1: to those therapists to give you, guys an idea of

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Speaker 1: real life examples of what this looks like and feel like.

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Speaker 1: Well I have if you guys did not know that,

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Speaker 1: I have a practice in Tennessee called Three Chords. There

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Speaker 1: we can see clients all over the state of Tennessee

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Speaker 1: in person and virtually. Sad we cannot see clients outside

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Speaker 1: of our state because of licensing laws. But if you're

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00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 1: somebody who is looking for therapy or doesn't know where

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00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 1: to start, we have three four if you conclude me,

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00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 1: four a therapists that actually do love doing what we do,

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00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 1: and I'd love to help set you up with that

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00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: if that's something that you.

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00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 2: Are interested in. So for that, go to three Courts

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Speaker 2: Therapy dot com.

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00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 1: You can read about us individually our bios and reach

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00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: out to three courts as a whole or to the

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00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: individual therapist that you resonate with. Online, you can follow

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00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: me at cat dot defada and at ing therapy podcasts

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00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: and until next time until couch Talks on Wednesday.

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Speaker 2: I hope you guys have the day you need to have. Bye.