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Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how

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Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer and

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Speaker 1: I love all things tech. And this is our fourth

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Speaker 1: episode about DARPA, And after this episode I will switch

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Speaker 1: to some other topics for a while. But DARPA's history

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Speaker 1: is incredibly complicated and it's intertwined with some of the

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Speaker 1: most important technologies we interact with today, So we will

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Speaker 1: revisit this topic in the future. Will come back and

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Speaker 1: continue the story of DARPA. But I did not want

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Speaker 1: to turn tech stuff into DARPA stuff, So after this one,

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Speaker 1: I figure we'll move on to something else and maybe

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Speaker 1: in a few weeks we'll pick up where we left

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Speaker 1: off today. In our last episode, we covered a lot

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Speaker 1: more of the technology that was developed as part of

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Speaker 1: the efforts in the Vietnam War, and I guess now

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Speaker 1: it's a good time to remind every in the DARPA,

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Speaker 1: which back in the sixties was known by its original

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Speaker 1: name ARPA, was not an R and D facility itself,

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Speaker 1: not truly. It was more of an agency that would

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Speaker 1: award contracts to other organizations such as think tanks, universities,

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Speaker 1: defense contractors, and stuff like that. ARPA slash DARPA would

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Speaker 1: fund the work and they would also set the expectations,

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Speaker 1: the guidelines, you know what it was that they were

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Speaker 1: hoping to get out of it. But the actual science

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Speaker 1: and development was going on throughout the United States and

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Speaker 1: all these different facilities, and these projects were frequently top

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Speaker 1: top top secret, meaning the people who worked on them

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Speaker 1: would keep it quiet even from their co workers. So

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Speaker 1: only people at the top of DARPA really tended to

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Speaker 1: know all about the bits and pieces, and sometimes even

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Speaker 1: the director wasn't fully aware of everything that was going on.

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Speaker 1: That's how classified some of these projects were. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty nine, while several ARPA research projects were all tied

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Speaker 1: up in the Vietnam War, a group of computer networking

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Speaker 1: specialists would initiate the original Arpanet Connections. ARPANETT was the

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Speaker 1: R and D project to create a means for different

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Speaker 1: computers to send data back and forth between each other,

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Speaker 1: even if those computers relied upon different computer languages, and

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Speaker 1: even if they were separated by many many miles from

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Speaker 1: one another. Part of this required the design and production

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Speaker 1: of a brand new technology a router. ARPA had contracted

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Speaker 1: the company BBN Technologies to build the first routers back

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty eight, and then it took a year.

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Speaker 1: But on October twenty, nineteen sixty nine, computers at the

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Speaker 1: Stanford Research Institute, at the University of California and Santa

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Speaker 1: Barbara and at the University of Utah would connect through

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Speaker 1: these routers. The first message sent across this three node

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Speaker 1: network was low l O. This was actually Christopher Lines

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Speaker 1: attempt to log in l O g I N to

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Speaker 1: the s r I computer remotely, but the s r

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Speaker 1: I computer crashed in mid message, and so low is

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Speaker 1: all we got. Also, how typical is it that the

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Speaker 1: server goes down just when you have something important to

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Speaker 1: send to it? It dates all the way back to

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the ARPA net. But more seriously, this

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Speaker 1: connection showed that remote computers would be able to send

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Speaker 1: data back and forth using network communication standards and also

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Speaker 1: relying upon technologies like packet switching that involves dividing data

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Speaker 1: such as the data that represents a file, into smaller packets,

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Speaker 1: and each packet has information about where the data is from,

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Speaker 1: where it's going, and how it fits into the overall

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Speaker 1: collection of information so that you can um when I

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Speaker 1: say you, so that a computer can reconstruct the file.

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Speaker 1: These ideas we get fleshed out over the next several years.

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Speaker 1: An important moment would happen to night teen seventy four

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Speaker 1: when vent Surf and Bob con would publish a protocol

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Speaker 1: for Packet Network Interconnection, which laid out the principles behind TCP.

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Speaker 1: But I've done full episodes about ur PONET, so for

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Speaker 1: this episode, we'll just remind you that that was something

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Speaker 1: that was happening at this time, and will also point

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Speaker 1: out some of the big moments as they tie back

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Speaker 1: into our PA. So the main purpose of our Bonette,

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Speaker 1: by the way, that was just to create those methodologies

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Speaker 1: for computer networks. But one of the applications, perhaps one

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Speaker 1: of the benefits that ar Bo was really interested in,

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Speaker 1: was the idea that by creating distributed networks of computers,

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Speaker 1: the US could maintain some communications and command structures in

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Speaker 1: the event of a nuclear strike. So it's kind of scary,

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Speaker 1: but it's also really interesting when you think of it

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Speaker 1: from a communication standpoint. If you have a concentrated computer center,

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Speaker 1: let's say that you've got a known defense computer at

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Speaker 1: a university, Well, that is a potential target. If your

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Speaker 1: adversary knows that there's a computer at that location and

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Speaker 1: they know that it's of critical importance, they may target it.

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Speaker 1: And if they take it down, then you lose it,

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Speaker 1: and that is another problem for you to have to handle.

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Speaker 1: But if you create a means for computers to work

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Speaker 1: together across a big network and it spreads all over

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Speaker 1: the country, you have distributed your computing power significantly. And

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Speaker 1: even if a strike were to take down part of

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Speaker 1: that network, because the nature of the network itself, the

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Speaker 1: rest of it may continue to operate without the section

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Speaker 1: that has been taken out, which means you still have

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Speaker 1: some of your communications and control systems in place. So

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Speaker 1: it was looked at as a defense measure as well,

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Speaker 1: not just a means of having computers be able to

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Speaker 1: communicate with one another, but it was an added benefit.

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Speaker 1: Also in nineteen sixty nine, are PA and the U.

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Speaker 1: S Army with Bell Labs and the Williams Research Corporation

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Speaker 1: to develop the w R nineteen turbo fan engine. This

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Speaker 1: engine acts as the power plant for many different cruise missiles.

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Speaker 1: And I actually had to look this up because I

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Speaker 1: was not familiar with the term power plant when it

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Speaker 1: comes to things like missiles and jets and airplanes. I

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Speaker 1: think a power plant as a place that is used

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Speaker 1: to generate electricity. But power plant in this context is

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Speaker 1: an apparatus that provides power for device. It's not a

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Speaker 1: big surprise. And so the power in this particular scenario

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Speaker 1: is the power to fly through the air. So not

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Speaker 1: that mysterious and just threw me for a loop the

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Speaker 1: first time I saw it, because despite the fact that

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Speaker 1: I've been doing this for ten years, that I'm forty

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Speaker 1: three years old, I don't think I've ever actually encountered

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Speaker 1: that phrasing before. Meanwhile, while this turbo fan is in development,

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Speaker 1: while ar Panetta is coming online, ARPO was also funding

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Speaker 1: advancements in underwater propulsion systems. So not just this turbo

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Speaker 1: fan for going through the air, they were also looking

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Speaker 1: at underwater systems. The U. S. Navy had already funded

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Speaker 1: work out of the Applied Research Laboratory at Penn State

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Speaker 1: for a system that was called the Stored Chemical Energy

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Speaker 1: Propulsion System or SKEPS s c e p S. This

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Speaker 1: was used to power torpedoes. ARPA would fund subsequent research

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Speaker 1: to increase the operation duration for those systems to have

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Speaker 1: them be long endurance systems in other words, and these

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Speaker 1: were systems that were relying upon thermal chemical reactions, so

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Speaker 1: you would have them burned through what was essentially fuel.

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Speaker 1: So they had to come up with new ways to

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Speaker 1: replenish that. The result of this was an improvement over

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Speaker 1: the old technology, and it would be incorporated in the

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Speaker 1: design of the m K fifty torpedo. In anti war

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Speaker 1: sentiment was on the rise in the United States. The

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Speaker 1: Vietnam War conflict had been dragging on for were quite

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Speaker 1: some time, and the news was just devastating out of Vietnam.

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Speaker 1: For one thing, via the Vietnam War was one of

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Speaker 1: the first real conflicts where reporters on the ground were

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Speaker 1: able to send back footage and real stories of what

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Speaker 1: was going on, and it was not These were not

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Speaker 1: positive stories. One place where this anti war sentiment really

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Speaker 1: became apparent was at the University of Illinois at Urbana Champagne.

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Speaker 1: There an enormous computer, the fastest in the world at

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Speaker 1: that time, was the bull's eye of this target. The

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Speaker 1: computer was called the ILIAC four I L L I

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Speaker 1: A C four. Professor Daniel L. Slotnick who had called

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Speaker 1: John von Neumann, a mentor he had studied under. Von

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Speaker 1: Neuman was the Arbors scientist in charge of the Iliac

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Speaker 1: four project, and his goal was to get the ILIAC

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Speaker 1: four up to being able to process a billion instructs

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Speaker 1: per second. It was running calculations related to ballistic missiles

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Speaker 1: as well as the possibility of using weather modification for

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Speaker 1: defense top secret stuff in other words, because it was

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Speaker 1: a Department of Defense computer running at this university. And

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Speaker 1: in early nineteen seventy a student reporter was able to

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Speaker 1: attend a meeting where they talked about how this computer's

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Speaker 1: time was being allocated, and in that story that the

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Speaker 1: student reporter published, the reporter revealed that one of the

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Speaker 1: things the computer was being used to do was related

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Speaker 1: to nuclear weapons. Slot Nick was caught between anti war

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Speaker 1: protesters and the Department of Defense. He managed to anger

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Speaker 1: both sides at the same time when he said he

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Speaker 1: took on this project in order to be able to

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Speaker 1: build the computer. He wanted to have this computer capable

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Speaker 1: of running a billion operations per second, and in order

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Speaker 1: to do that he was going to need millions of dollars,

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Speaker 1: and the Department of Defense offered that operat tunity. He

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Speaker 1: said that if the Red Cross had done the same,

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Speaker 1: he would have taken the money from the Red Cross

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Speaker 1: and had nothing to do with the Department of Defense.

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Speaker 1: This had the benefit of taking off both the anti

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Speaker 1: war protesters and the Department of Defense. Nobody was happy

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Speaker 1: about this. Tensions continued to grow, and there were more

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Speaker 1: than a few violent incidents on and around the University

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Speaker 1: of Illinois campus in the months following this news report.

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Speaker 1: So in June of that year, the university reported to

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Speaker 1: ARPA that the university was no longer going to be

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Speaker 1: able to keep this computer safe. The ILIAC four was

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Speaker 1: in danger if it stayed on campus, and so ARPA

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Speaker 1: chose to move the computer, which by the way, was huge.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was several feet long, several feet wide,

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Speaker 1: weight an enormous amounts, So moving it was not a

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Speaker 1: an easy option. In fact, just to plug in the

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Speaker 1: power supply you would have to have a forklift. So

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Speaker 1: this was not an easy thing to move. But they

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Speaker 1: did relocate it. They moved did all the way out

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Speaker 1: to California to NASA's Institute for Advanced Computation at the

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Speaker 1: AIMS Research Center. Now, following this, while you have this

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Speaker 1: anti war sentiment growing, you have these these violent protests happening.

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Speaker 1: Senator Mike Mansfield would introduce a bill that would limit

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Speaker 1: ARPA's projects to those that had a quote specific military

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Speaker 1: function end quote. ARPA would end up having trouble getting

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Speaker 1: budget for speculative or bleeding edge research. They were mostly

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Speaker 1: trying to look into ways of pushing the bleeding edge

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Speaker 1: of technology out much further than anyone else. In fact,

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Speaker 1: the whole goal of ARPA or DARPA as it would

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Speaker 1: later be known, was to make certain that the United

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Speaker 1: States would never be left behind again, that another spot

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Speaker 1: Nick type event would never happen to the US, that

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Speaker 1: the US would always be on the forefront of that technology,

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Speaker 1: which would mean having to do a lot of exploratory

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Speaker 1: research and development that you could not easily tie into

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Speaker 1: active military efforts because you're looking ahead to anticipate problems

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Speaker 1: that you don't have yet but you think are around

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Speaker 1: the corner. So this was a real blow to the agency.

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Speaker 1: In addition, the Secretary of Defense would order ARPA to

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Speaker 1: be removed from the Pentagon, so the agency's new office

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Speaker 1: would be almost three miles away in Arlington, Virginia, and

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Speaker 1: that would mean that you would no longer have that

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Speaker 1: very quick, immediate access to Pentagon officials. You weren't working

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Speaker 1: side by side with them anymore. No one at ARPA,

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Speaker 1: not even the director, was really sure if the agency

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Speaker 1: was going to be around much longer or not. There

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Speaker 1: was a serious worry that the agency might just fizzle

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Speaker 1: out without a formal conclusion. But the agency wasn't officially

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Speaker 1: shut down, and so it would continue to fund R

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Speaker 1: and D work in various projects. I'll explain a little

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Speaker 1: bit more in just a second, but first let's take

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Speaker 1: a quick break to thank our sponsor. ARFA was also

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Speaker 1: funding work to develop low weight mirrors made out of

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Speaker 1: beryllium for use, and stuff like infrared telescopes and ballistic

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Speaker 1: missile defense systems and weapons guidance systems ended up being

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Speaker 1: useful for lots of stuff, especially in space. I mean anytime,

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Speaker 1: and I'll mention this again towards the end of this episode,

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Speaker 1: anytime you can reduce the amount of weight of the

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Speaker 1: components you're sending up into space, you want to do

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Speaker 1: it because weight essentially equates money. The heavier your payload

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Speaker 1: is to get into space, the more expensive it's going

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Speaker 1: to be to get up there. So this was an

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Speaker 1: important development not just for these military guidance systems and

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Speaker 1: defense systems, but for space faring stuff overall. Are but

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Speaker 1: also funded development of technologies that would be incorporated into

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Speaker 1: a new generation of detection equipment that could pick up

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Speaker 1: Soviet submarine movements. Uh. The project was considered one of

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Speaker 1: the agency's biggest successes, with the resulting technology being deployed

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Speaker 1: in the early nineteen eighties. So again you see how

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Speaker 1: far ahead the agency is from the production of technology.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's several years out from where they're doing

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Speaker 1: the research and development. They do the r and D

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Speaker 1: work in the early seventies, it's not really ready to

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Speaker 1: be rolled out in an application until the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 1: But that was again are PA's argument. They said, we

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Speaker 1: are necessary to be able to work on these problems

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Speaker 1: and anticipate these things so that we're ready to go

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Speaker 1: within a decade or so. But if we're not doing that,

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Speaker 1: if we're being reactionary instead of proactive, we're going to

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Speaker 1: be behind the game. John Lehman, who was Secretary of

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Speaker 1: the Navy in nineteen would end up saying that because

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Speaker 1: of these submarine sensors, if a war were to ever

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Speaker 1: break out between the United States and the Soviet Union,

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Speaker 1: those sensors would give him the capability to attack all

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Speaker 1: Soviet subs that were in deployment within the first five

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Speaker 1: minutes of that war. So it was considered to be

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Speaker 1: an incredibly successful technology. It's also indicative of a lot

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Speaker 1: of DARPA's early work, which focused largely on developing sensor

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Speaker 1: technology for all sorts of stuff seismic sensors, acoustic sensors,

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Speaker 1: radioactive isotope sensors, etcetera. So there's also no getting around

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Speaker 1: the fact that most of the technologies I've talked about

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Speaker 1: in these episodes are meant either to defend against or attack,

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Speaker 1: or to make attacks more effective. They're all supposed to

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Speaker 1: be related to military stuff, after all, But this next

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Speaker 1: bit is sort of a relief from that. In the

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Speaker 1: early nineteen seventies, are PA funded research into what was

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Speaker 1: called glassy carbon. This was a foamy sort of stuff

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Speaker 1: made from pure carbon, and the foam had some really

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Speaker 1: interesting features. It was strong, it didn't weigh very much,

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Speaker 1: it was chemically inert, and while the original idea was

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Speaker 1: that the stuff might be really important for numerous electrochemical applications.

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Speaker 1: One unexpected benefit was that it became a strong candidate

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Speaker 1: for material to use in surgical implants like heart valves,

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Speaker 1: and so it was. And so this particular ARPA project

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Speaker 1: would fund work on a technology that would go on

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Speaker 1: to save countless lives, and I think that's pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: It's also a good reminder that while some of this

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Speaker 1: technology was initially intended specifically for a military purpose or

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Speaker 1: to potentially go into military applications, they often would have

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Speaker 1: much wider applications than just military ones. In nineteen two,

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Speaker 1: are PAS Materials Research Projects developed rare earth permanent magnets

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Speaker 1: capable of operating That means is, you know, maintaining their

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Speaker 1: magnetism across a range of temperatures that had been identified

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Speaker 1: as being military relevant. And it's a pretty big range.

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Speaker 1: So on the low end is minus fifty five degrees

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Speaker 1: celsius or minus sixty seven fahrenheit. On the hot end

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Speaker 1: of the scale, it's a hundred twenty five degrees celsius,

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Speaker 1: which is two hundred fifty seven degrees fahrenheit. Now, typically

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Speaker 1: heating a magnet will reduce its strength of its magnetic field,

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Speaker 1: and cooling a magnet down will increase a permanent magnets

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Speaker 1: magnetic field. So why is that Well, from a very

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Speaker 1: basic level, a magnet's molecules are largely aligned with one another.

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Speaker 1: They're more or less all pointing in the same direction

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Speaker 1: within the material. So you've got all these molecules that

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Speaker 1: are lined up in parallel, and their north poles are

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Speaker 1: all pointing in one direction, their south poles are all

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Speaker 1: pointing in the other direction. Heating a magnet up causes

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Speaker 1: molecules to move around. Heating stuff up causes molecular movement,

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Speaker 1: and the more the molecules move around, the more that

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Speaker 1: alignment is compromised. So if you heat up a magnet

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Speaker 1: a bit, it starts to lose its magnetic properties. If

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Speaker 1: you heat it up enough to a point that's called

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Speaker 1: the Curie point, named after Madam Curry, they will no

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Speaker 1: longer be magnetic at all. You will have demagnetized your

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Speaker 1: magnet by heating it up to this point. It's where

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Speaker 1: the molecules will be out of alignment and they will

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Speaker 1: not realign. To do that, though, you'd have to heat

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Speaker 1: the material a pretty darn hot. The Cury point is

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Speaker 1: typically very very very hot for most materials, so for example,

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Speaker 1: iron that curi point is like seven seventy degrees celsius.

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Speaker 1: It's one thousand, four hundred seventeen degrees fahrenheit. So this

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Speaker 1: would mean that it be very rare that you would

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Speaker 1: ever encounter those kind of situations. The only way you

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Speaker 1: would do it is if you were doing it on purpose. Typically,

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Speaker 1: this work was really to make sure that the magnets

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Speaker 1: were going to operate according to expectations under hot and

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Speaker 1: cold conditions. Also in nineteen two, ARPA officially became DARPA,

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Speaker 1: or the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, and it would

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Speaker 1: stick with that name until nine. In three it would

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Speaker 1: drop the D and become ARPA again for three years,

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Speaker 1: and then in nine will become DARPA again. But I

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Speaker 1: figure we're gonna have a while before we get to

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Speaker 1: the nineties, so we'll talk about that when we get there.

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Speaker 1: Another DARPA funded innovation in the early nineteen seventies was

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Speaker 1: the development of gallium arsenide as a semiconductor material. So

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Speaker 1: before the semiconductor electronics relied on these really large component

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Speaker 1: parts like vacuum tubes, which meant your basic computer would

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Speaker 1: take up an enormous amount of space. Several researchers developed

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Speaker 1: semiconductor technologies all the way through the nineteen forties, but

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Speaker 1: it would take a while for the semiconductor transistor to

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Speaker 1: become practical. The properties of gallium arsenide allowed it to

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Speaker 1: host faster transistors running on more power than you could

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Speaker 1: put on a silicon transistor. Technology would find its way

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Speaker 1: into all sorts of applications, though the military was mostly

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Speaker 1: concerned with its use on GPS kits and precision guided

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Speaker 1: munitions and other defensive systems. One last bit about the

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Speaker 1: Vietnam War and DARPA, because we're getting to the point

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Speaker 1: where America was getting ready to withdraw from Vietnam. The

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Speaker 1: war became increasingly unpopular as it stretched on, and for

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Speaker 1: one thing, in the US, it was never really a

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Speaker 1: formal war. The US had started out trying to supply

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Speaker 1: aid in the form of technology and training to the

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Speaker 1: South Vietnamese government and military, and this was all in

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Speaker 1: an effort to stop the growth of communism without getting

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Speaker 1: directly involved. That was the goal, was to make sure

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Speaker 1: that the South Vietnamese forces were capable of handling this

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Speaker 1: without the US having to get directly involved. But obviously

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Speaker 1: that did not pan out. Every year since nineteen fifty

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Speaker 1: nine had seen an increase in the number of US

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Speaker 1: troops sent to the region. In nineteen seventy one, a

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Speaker 1: former Rand Corporation analyst named Daniel Ellsberg would leak a

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Speaker 1: collection of documents that collectively were called the Pentagon Papers

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Speaker 1: to The New York Times. Those documents contained information about

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Speaker 1: the US is secret involvement with Vietnam for more than

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Speaker 1: a decade. This was actually a detailed report that mc

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Speaker 1: namara had asked the Rand Corporation to put together as

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Speaker 1: it was going on, sort of an encyclopedia of the

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Speaker 1: Vietnam War. And the problem was that at this point

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Speaker 1: this analyst leaked the whole thing to The New York Times,

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Speaker 1: and it included details on the various ARPA projects that

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Speaker 1: had happened in that time, and the involvement of the

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Speaker 1: super elitist group of scientists called the Jason's and the

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Speaker 1: growing anti war movement was really gaining momentum in the

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Speaker 1: United States, and many people were outraged not just about

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Speaker 1: the war, but also about these revelations of how the

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Speaker 1: US public had been deceived over the years, how the

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Speaker 1: government had been purposefully misleading the US population, that is,

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Speaker 1: you know, at least supposed to be represented by this government.

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Speaker 1: And so it bred this this distrust in the government,

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Speaker 1: saying you have been doing all the secret stuff, telling

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Speaker 1: us it's one thing when it's really another. The anti

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Speaker 1: war sentiment put a lot of pressure on all parties involved.

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Speaker 1: Eventually it led to ARPA's director, who was a Dr.

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Speaker 1: Steve J. Lucasik, the seventh director of ARPA at that point,

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Speaker 1: to sever the ties with the Jason's ARPA was seen

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Speaker 1: as the R and D tip on the point of

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Speaker 1: the military industrial complex SPEAR, and since the efforts in

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Speaker 1: Vietnam didn't prevent the North Vietnamese forces from taking Saigon,

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Speaker 1: many were beginning to question the usefulness of such an

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Speaker 1: agency in the first place. The experience of Vietnam had

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Speaker 1: an enormous effect on the American psyche. The majority of

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Speaker 1: Americans felt the war was unethical and a political mistake,

378
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Speaker 1: and that it led to the deaths of thousands of Americans,

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Speaker 1: not to mention millions of others. And it taunt Americans

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Speaker 1: that the use of force and superior technology would not

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Speaker 1: necessarily win out over philosophies and ideology. It wasn't realistic

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Speaker 1: to say because we are technologically superior, We're definitely going

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Speaker 1: to win. Now, all of this is to say that

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Speaker 1: it would make the post Vietnam War era for DARPA

385
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Speaker 1: really challenging. Apart from the name change, which was again

386
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Speaker 1: to indicate that from this point forward, the agency was

387
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Speaker 1: only going to pursue projects that met a specific military need.

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Speaker 1: All projects related to the Vietnam War were to stop.

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Speaker 1: Project Agile was called an enormous failure, that all the

390
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Speaker 1: attempts to bring research and technology to stop insurgents had

391
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Speaker 1: been ineffective at best and counter productive at worst. Several

392
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Speaker 1: previous ARPA directors who oversaw Project Agile throughout the years

393
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Speaker 1: would admit that their efforts were misguided and ineffective. DARBA

394
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 1: established a new office called Tactical Technology. This office carried

395
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Speaker 1: out much of the top secret R and D work

396
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Speaker 1: around sensors, improving the technologies that had been part of

397
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Speaker 1: the failed electric fence project, as well as more successful

398
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 1: projects like VILA and the submarine sensors. And then there

399
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: was the move to research technologies that can mask aircraft

400
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: from radar systems. New advanced air defense missile systems were

401
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: making it increasingly dangerous to fly missions in combat theaters.

402
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,959
Speaker 1: DARPA would tackle this problem by funding research into ways

403
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: that an aircraft might foil radar systems, either by absorbing

404
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 1: radar waves so that nothing bounces back, or by reflecting

405
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Speaker 1: radar waves off into other directions so that they don't

406
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: return to their radar stations, or both. These projects would

407
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Speaker 1: evolve into have Blue, the first practical stealth combat aircraft.

408
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Speaker 1: This was a proof of concept vehicle the had's first

409
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Speaker 1: test flight in nineteen seventy seven, and there's an interesting

410
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: behind the scenes story that really shows how secretive all

411
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Speaker 1: this stuff was. So the CIA had previously been working

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Speaker 1: with Lockheed to develop stealth technology that would culminate with

413
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Speaker 1: an aircraft called the A twelve Ox cart Plane. I

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Speaker 1: talked about it in an episode about stealth aircraft. But

415
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Speaker 1: the A twelve was so top secret that even the

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Speaker 1: director of DARPA, who was George Hallmeyer at this time,

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Speaker 1: he hadn't even heard about it. So when DARPA began

418
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Speaker 1: to look for possible contractors to work on stealth technology,

419
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Speaker 1: they did not initially consider Lockeed. They weren't They didn't

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Speaker 1: know that Lockeed had been working on this stuff. They

421
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Speaker 1: originally only reached out to McDonald Douglas and to Northrop.

422
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Speaker 1: When Lockeed executives found out, they petitioned the CIA to

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Speaker 1: let them tell DARPA about the stealth technology that the

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Speaker 1: Super Secrets Gunkworks division had been doing in order to

425
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Speaker 1: bid on this contract. The CIA would allow Locked to

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Speaker 1: tell hal Meyer about the twelve, which later would evolve

427
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Speaker 1: into the SR seventy one reconnaissance aircraft for the Air Force,

428
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Speaker 1: and Lockeed would win this contract. I'll have more to

429
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Speaker 1: say about stealth technology and some of the other tech

430
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Speaker 1: that DARBA worked on towards the end of the seventies

431
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: in just a moment, but first let's take another quick

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Speaker 1: break to thank our sponsor. The original design for what

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Speaker 1: would become Have Blue would later evolve into the F

434
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 1: one seventeen stealth fighter. The original design was nicknamed the

435
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: Hopeless Diamond. The sketch was of an aircraft that vaguely

436
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: resembled the Hope Diamond and had lots of facets and

437
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: odd angles. No one was really sure if it would

438
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: be able to fly. The weird angles were part of

439
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 1: the stealth technology. It was all on effort to redirect

440
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: those incoming radar signals so that they would not return

441
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: to the listing stations. They would bounce off into some

442
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: other directions, kind of like using a mirror to direct

443
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: a ray of light and you just tilt the mirror

444
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: a different direction and the light goes a different way.

445
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: By redirecting the radar signals, it would seem to the

446
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: radar station that there was nothing in that region of

447
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 1: the sky. That was the whole idea. Much of the

448
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: work on the stealth technology took place on the most

449
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: famous secret base of all time, which of course is

450
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 1: Area fifty one or the Groom Lake Facility. I've talked

451
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: about this base numerous times in this podcast as well.

452
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: The Air Force would take over the program in the

453
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: late nineteen seventies and conduct flight tests all over the

454
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: Tonopah Test Range, which was seventy miles northwest of Area

455
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: fifty one. Some people would just call that Area fifty two.

456
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: And another big project was in updating the old transit

457
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: navigation system. It was a satellite based navigation system that

458
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: u ARPA had been involved with in the early sixties.

459
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 1: This effort was to replace that with a more robust

460
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: satellite system. In nineteen seventy three, as America was withdrawing

461
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,360
Speaker 1: from Vietnam, the Pentagon ordered a joint program for a

462
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: single navigation system that all the branches of the military

463
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: would be able to use, because at this point, these

464
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: various military branches had all been working on their own

465
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: systems which were not compatible with one another, and eventually

466
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: um the government said, this doesn't make sense. We should

467
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: have a more unified approach. So this new program was

468
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: called nav Star, and DARPA helped fund the development of

469
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: this program, which by was finally ready for full deployment,

470
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: and it consisted of twenty four satellites with atomic clocks,

471
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: which was necessary for synchronization, and they were launched into

472
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: orbit to give global navigation coverage. This information could be

473
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: used not just to navigate people around the world, but

474
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: also for guided weapons systems. As part of the technology,

475
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: designers included what they called an offset feature. It was

476
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: it was known as selective availability, and it meant that

477
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: if you didn't have the right kind of receiver to

478
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: descramble this information and get a readout, you would actually

479
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: get a result that would be off by several hundred feet,

480
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: which would limit the chances of someone unauthorized making use

481
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: of the system, and it would also keep the GPS

482
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: network impractical for commercial use. That is until President Bill

483
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: Clinton would end the era of selective availability and allow

484
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: civilian systems to access information with essentially the same precision

485
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: as military systems, and at that point GPS receivers were

486
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: accurate enough to be used for things like navigation and cars,

487
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: because before you would be you know, you would have

488
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: like a precision of down two around a few hundred feet.

489
00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: That's not very useful when you're trying to look for

490
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,719
Speaker 1: return anyway. During Vietnam, DARPA had funded a few drone

491
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: programs as well. These were very primitive drones compared to

492
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,959
Speaker 1: what we have today, but it was the beginning of

493
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: serious work in unmanned aerial vehicles for reconnaissance and for weaponization.

494
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: They were code named Prairie and Collare. Both were remotely

495
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: piloted vehicles or RPVs, and both used lawnmower motors and

496
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: could carry a payload of about twenty eight pounds or

497
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: twelve point seven kilograms. These would serve as prototypes for

498
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: work in the field, which DARPA would end up handing

499
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: over to the Armed Forces in nineteen seventy seven, DARPA

500
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: would fund another project for an unmanned aerial vehicle called

501
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: Amber that was supposed to be a long endurance u

502
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: a V that would get support from the Navy. As

503
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,479
Speaker 1: the project was proving promising, but in the late nineteen eighties,

504
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: Congress would create a new Joint Program Office to continue

505
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: research and development for unmanned aerial vehicles and DARPA was

506
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: effectively removed from that process. DARPA would move on to

507
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,479
Speaker 1: pursue a new project called Assault Breaker, which had the

508
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: goal of bringing together many different disparate technologies in an

509
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: effort to make them work together in a system of systems.

510
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: This idea of we have all these pieces out there

511
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: and they're all effective, but it would be better if

512
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:27,239
Speaker 1: we could actually make a cohesive approach to this. So

513
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: the goal was to create a means in which military

514
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: commanders would have an enormous amount of information at their

515
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: disposal and the capability of launching an attack on a target,

516
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: even if that target were well behind enemy lines. This

517
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: would require bringing together all of these different technologies that

518
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: DARPA had played a part in making a reality. Soviet

519
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: Union spies learned about this program, Assault Breaker, and they

520
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: reported back to their superiors in Moscow, and as eventually,

521
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: military personnel in the Soviet Union wrote up a report

522
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: and published it in a journal called Military Thought. It's

523
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: actually a classified journal. Only a few high ranking officials

524
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: really had access to it. Well, high ranking Soviet officials

525
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: and a few U. S. Spies, because, as we know,

526
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: everyone is spying on everyone else all the time, always.

527
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: So when US officials learned that the Soviet government was

528
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: worried that the US was building up a program that

529
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: would give America this incredible advantage in both gathering intelligence

530
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: and acting upon it, spirits started to run high in

531
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: the US because if your enemy is scared, that's good

532
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: news for you. I guess. One cool project that started

533
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,719
Speaker 1: independently from Darba was one that would eventually be called simnet.

534
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: So there was an Air Force pilot named Jack Thorpe

535
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: who was thinking about the possibility of networked flight simulators

536
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,959
Speaker 1: for the purposes of training pilots, you know, combat training

537
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: without actually having to go up in a real jet.

538
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: And he had experienced this on a small scale ld.

539
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: This was not something he just came up with on

540
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: his own. He had already had sort of this experience

541
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: in a system that was at the Flying Training Division

542
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: of Williams Air Force Base, and that system would allow

543
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: two pilots to simulate flying emission together. The simulator was

544
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: complete with hydraulic motion system, so it move you as

545
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: you're piloting the simulated aircraft. But again it was just

546
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: a pair of these simulators that worked together. Thorpe wondered

547
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: if perhaps it would be possible to build out a

548
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: much larger system with multiple UH simulators all connected to

549
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: each other to allow for more complex training. Thorpe wrote

550
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: up a paper titled Future Views Aircrew Training nineteen eighty

551
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: through two thousand. This was in n when he wrote this,

552
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: and he pitched his ideas to top Brass, but they

553
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: didn't take it very seriously. To be fair to them,

554
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: the tech that Thorpe was proposing was incredibly sophisticated for

555
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,040
Speaker 1: the time, and also not many people really knew that

556
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: much about the progress that ARPA net had been making

557
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: in networking different computer systems together, so no one was

558
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: really sure how feasible this was. Thorpe would go on

559
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: doing his career and then he would go to the

560
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 1: Naval War College to further his education, and after getting

561
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: out of that he was assigned sort of on loan

562
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: by the Air Force to DARPA. While he was at DARPA,

563
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: his boss asked him, hey, gun, any interesting ideas, you know,

564
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: beyond what you're working on. So Thorpe shared his vision

565
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 1: of these networked simulators, and his boss loved this idea

566
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: and told Thorpe that you should tell this to Larry Lynn,

567
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,479
Speaker 1: who was then the director of DARPA. Larry Lynn liked

568
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: it a lot too, and so yes, Thorpe, how much

569
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: money do you think it would cost to do this project?

570
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 1: And Thorpe said seventeen million dollars and Lynn said, okay, doky.

571
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: So the program began and it became known as Simulator

572
00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 1: Networking or sim net. DARPA would contract with delt A

573
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 1: Graphics Incorporated, Perceptronics Incorporated, and bb IN Incorporated to help

574
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: build out the system, and they would subcontract with other

575
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: companies to build all these simulators. And they weren't just

576
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: aircraft simulators. They built tank simulators and other stuff too,

577
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: and they networked them all together. The advantages of these

578
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: simulators over real world training were numerous. Real world combat

579
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: training is obviously very dangerous for some scenarios such as

580
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: let's say you want to operate your aircraft, but you

581
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: also want to jam the sensors on that aircraft. Not

582
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: only is that very dangerous because you're taking away some

583
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: of the information that the pilots are relying upon, it's

584
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: also potentially problematic because depending on where you're flying these

585
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: these training missions, using that jamming technology can affect other

586
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: stuff like commercial flights, or maybe the the airspace of allies,

587
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: or maybe people who aren't your allies. It could be

588
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: really really touchy. But if you simulate it, you can

589
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: do pretty much any scenario that the computer is capable

590
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: of running. So also, because the systems were networked in theory,

591
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: you could have people in different parts of the world

592
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 1: all training together. You didn't have to get them all

593
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: in the same place at the same time, though, you

594
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: would have to figure out something about lag and latency

595
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: for these systems. Symnet in a way was a precursor

596
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: to online games that millions of gamers play these days,

597
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: like M M O RPGs. They can kind of trace,

598
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: uh what not necessarily trace their history back. But symnet

599
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: was definitely a precursor to that kind of stuff. There

600
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: are many more technologies the DARPA helped fund In the

601
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, there were xemer lasers. These were used in

602
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: communications platforms between aircraft and submerged submarines. They needed to

603
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: develop special lasers in the short wave range of lasers.

604
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 1: The longer wavelengths didn't have good penetration in the water,

605
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: so you couldn't really use them to communicate with a submarine.

606
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: But there was this need to communicate with submarines because

607
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: at that point, really the only way a submarine could

608
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: communicate with the surface is if the submarine itself surfaced,

609
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: and obviously that puts the submarine in a vulnerable position.

610
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 1: Being able to use these short wave lasers and have

611
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: them penetrate the water reach the submarine and have the

612
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: submarine be able to respond opened up communication in ways

613
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: that weren't possible before. DARPA also contributed some of the

614
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 1: components for the Hubble Space Telescope. The agency would design

615
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 1: and help build two antenna booms for the satellite telescope

616
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: in the late nineteen seventies and early nineties. DARBA pioneered

617
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: the development of a special graphite and aluminum material that

618
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 1: would allow the booms to not just conduct radio frequencies

619
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: but also double as structural supports. So these structural supports

620
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: that made made the overall telescope lighter. The material was lighter,

621
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 1: it removes some of the need for some extra infrastructure.

622
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: And again, if you make your payload lighter to send

623
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: off into space, you bring the price down. So weight

624
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: is money, So it was a cost saving feature. It

625
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: took the better part of a decade for DARPA to

626
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: recover in the wake of the Vietnam War. The agency

627
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: changed a lot in the nineteen seventies. And we're gonna

628
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: leave off for now. We're gonna say goodbye to DARPA

629
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: for the time being, but I will come back to

630
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: revisit the agency and the projects that funded over the

631
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 1: following decades in future episodes. So we'll talk about things

632
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: like star wars and autonomous cars and spying on World

633
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: of Warcraft players and more, because DARPA played a role

634
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: in all of that kind of stuff. It's a fascinating story.

635
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: And again, because of the work that DARPA has helped fund,

636
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: we have access to some pretty incredible technologies that you know,

637
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: rolled out a few years later based on that early work.

638
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: So it's definitely benefited us in many, many ways. The

639
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: agency has also created stuff that's been at best controversial

640
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: and it worst incredibly incredibly harmful, like Agent Orange is

641
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: the one to point to easily as being a truly

642
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: terrible thing. So you take the good, you take the bad,

643
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: you take them both, and there you have DARPA. I

644
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: guess we will revisit this in the future, but in

645
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: the meantime, if you guys have any suggestions for topics

646
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: you would like me to cover on tech Stuff, some

647
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 1: sort of technology, a company, a person in tech, whatever

648
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: it may be, go to tech Stuff podcast dot com.

649
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: You can find all the ways to contact us there.

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Speaker 1: I look forward to hearing from you. Make sure you

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Speaker 1: check out our merchandise store over at t public dot

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Speaker 1: com slash tech Stuff. Don't forget we are nominated in

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00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio Podcast Awards, so make sure you

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00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 1: support tech Stuff there. I would love to be able

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00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 1: to accept an award. I'm I'm going to be at

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00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: the awards ceremony, so make sure that the speech I

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Speaker 1: write is one that I get to give people. Also,

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Speaker 1: just go check out the awards see if there are

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Speaker 1: shows nominated that you really love. It's always nice to

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Speaker 1: give some support to the creators who make the stuff

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Speaker 1: you really enjoy, whether it's tech stuff or something else.

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Speaker 1: I I joke a lot about supporting tech stuff, but honestly,

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Speaker 1: I think you should support whichever shows you feel deserve

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Speaker 1: it the most. And if it's my show, I am

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00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: very thankful for that. But if it's not, No Sweat,

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Speaker 1: I think that a good work deserves recognition. So go

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Speaker 1: check that out and I'll talk to you again really

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Speaker 1: soon for more on this and thousands of other topics

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Speaker 1: because it has stuff works dot Com. Eight