1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 2: All these drugs foster violence. That's I think one of 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: the biggest themes was just this beautiful Harland ravished by meth. 5 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 6 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 7 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold war Wicked and the co host 8 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 9 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 10 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 11 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 12 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold War 13 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 14 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 15 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: behind the stories. This next story centers on a terrible 16 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: crime in rural Oklahoma in nineteen ninety nine. Two parents 17 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: were murdered and two teenage girls in the same trailer 18 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: went missing. Author Jax Miller details this very twisty, turney 19 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: story that has a surprise ending in her book Hell 20 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: in the Heartland what do you think this story is 21 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: about At its heart, I think. 22 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 2: It's about grief. I think it's about trauma. I think 23 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 2: it's about misdirected anger, police corruption. There's a lot of 24 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: things at play here. There's many facets to this story 25 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 2: because you have so many people involved, and I feel 26 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: like everyone's coming at it from their own perspective and 27 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: they have their own feelings towards it. 28 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: Well, this starts in an unlikely place, rural Oklahoma in 29 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine. Let's just start from the beginning and 30 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: tell the story chronologically. Who who is the family at 31 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: the center of this? Tell me about them? 32 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: So the story revolves around the Freeman family. If you 33 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 2: have mother and father Kathy and Danny Freeman, ages thirty 34 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: eight and forty, respectively, and their sixteen year old daughter, 35 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: Ashley Freeman. They live in Welsch, Oklahoma, which is in 36 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 2: the northeastern most part of the state, bordering Missouri and Kansas. 37 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 2: Very rural. They lived in a trailer home that was 38 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 2: very far off from the road. You couldn't see your 39 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 2: neighbor from there virtually. On the night of December twenty ninth, 40 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: it was Ashley's sixteenth birthday, and her best friend Laura Bible, 41 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: also sixteen. She'd asked her parents if she could sleep 42 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: over there for a second night in the road. Now, 43 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: they'd been friends for bosh most of their lives, like 44 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: since they were in diapers. So the mom was like, sure, yeah, 45 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: you know, go on, you can, you know, have fun. 46 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: And the girls, Ashley and Laura, they went out, they 47 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 2: got a birthday cake, they went to Pizza Hut, and 48 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 2: then they came home later that evening they had birthday cake. 49 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 2: Ashley's boyfriend Jeremy was also with them that night and 50 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 2: that was the last person to ever see them. The 51 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: next morning, between five am and six am, this was 52 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: December thirtieth, the neighbors saw a fire. They saw the 53 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: Freeman trailer on fire. That was kind of the ground 54 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: zero of everything was finding this trailer on fire at 55 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: early morning. 56 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: We'll set the scene a little bit for crime rural 57 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: Oklahoma in the late nineties. Would this have been Are 58 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: we talking about drugs sort of in the area or 59 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: is it just really idyllic rurle nothing happening in this 60 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: place at all. 61 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 2: I think that was a very interesting time because that 62 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: was when meth was really starting to be introduced. Now 63 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: a days, we see lots of towns ravished in myth, 64 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: But back then it was just starting to trickle in 65 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: and the meth related crime was becoming more and more prevalent. 66 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: So maybe not as much back then, but it was 67 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 2: starting for sure. 68 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: So the neighbor sees the fire, they obviously call the 69 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: fire department. Is this a quick response? 70 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's actually a pretty quick response, and they do 71 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: get the fire out rather quickly, I want to say, 72 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: forty five minute, and it's something along those lines. And 73 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 2: after they extinguish the fire, they find a body, and 74 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: that body will transpire to be Kathy Freeman. At this 75 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: point in time, nobody knows how she died, and furthermore, 76 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: they don't know where her husband, Danny is, and they 77 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: don't know where the two girls are. They just have 78 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,679 Speaker 2: one body. So the first morning, everyone's scrambling very much. 79 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: Laura Bible, the girl who was sleeping over her parents, 80 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 2: Jay and Loreene Bible, they're on the scene right away. 81 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,919 Speaker 2: You know, where is my child? Where are the girls? 82 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 2: Where's Danny? And they're waiting in the driveway for answers. Meanwhile, 83 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: cops are scrambling, the firefighters and everyone's just scrambling around 84 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: the crime scene. What's going on? How does she die? 85 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 2: And they're not getting many answers. But at around this 86 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 2: time they get a tip. According to the OSBI, Oklahoma 87 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 2: State AUROBA Investigation Agent Steve Nutter, he says, we just 88 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 2: got a call. Danny has the girls. He's taken them 89 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: hostage and he's not going to give them back until 90 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 2: we give over the cop who shot his son. Oh, 91 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: Kathy and Danny had a seventeen year old son who 92 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: had died less than a year before this. He was 93 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: shot and killed by police. They'd had dealings with Danny. 94 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 2: They know Danny's a hothead. They says, well, let him 95 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 2: pull off for a day, give it twenty four hours, 96 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: and then we'll start looking for the girls. 97 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: Hold on, what kind of dealings had they had with Danny? 98 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: Is this domestic violence stuff or is this him shooting guns. 99 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 3: In the middle of the night neighbor complaint stuff. 100 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 2: There were domestic violence issues. There were accusations that Danny 101 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 2: had beat his son, Shane. There were accusations that he 102 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: beat his wife. He was an abusive man. Shane kind 103 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 2: of went on the run. He committed a bunch of 104 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: petty crimes. And then he had a face off with 105 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 2: the Craig County Sheriff's office and there was a cop. 106 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: It was his first day with the county. He shot 107 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 2: him dead. 108 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 3: Wow. 109 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 2: So Kathy and Danny were up in arms about it. 110 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 2: They said, our son was wrongfully shot. This was a 111 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 2: wrongful shooting. Whether or not it was, I don't think 112 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 2: we'll ever really know again. This could have been just 113 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 2: misdirected grief. But either way, the Freeman's they wanted justice 114 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,799 Speaker 2: and there was a lot of tit for tat between 115 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 2: the Craig County Sheriff's Office and the Freeman's. The police 116 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: would shine lights on their home in the middle of 117 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 2: the night. Danny would stalk the cops kids like. It 118 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: was a lot of back and forth. 119 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 3: Wow. 120 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. And that was going on for a year until 121 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: this fire started. So they knew Danny because of Shane 122 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 2: Freeman's death, and now they're running on the theory that 123 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 2: Danny has the girls let him cool off. He's a hothead. 124 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 2: I remember speaking to the cops on the scene and 125 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: they were like, we actually wondered if Danny was in 126 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: the woods with a gun on us while we're you know, 127 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 2: trying to put out the fire. 128 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 3: Wow. 129 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: So the Bible parents, Loreene and Jay, you know, they 130 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 2: go in for questioning and they start asking the parents, 131 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 2: you know, have you seen him in any drug dealings? 132 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 2: Have you ever seen him with large amounts of cash? 133 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: And they're like, what are you talking about? Just just 134 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 2: find our kids. We don't give a damn about what 135 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 2: Danny's into. They says, well, we're gonna let him cool 136 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 2: off and we'll see. 137 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: Wait, did the Bibles believe that this was possible that 138 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: Danny would have taken his daughter and his daughter's best 139 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: friend hostage. 140 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 3: We had known for her whole life. 141 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 2: I think they were just kind of confused, like what 142 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: is going on? Is this true? And I think that 143 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 2: they just wanted to know, you know, for sure, is 144 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: this the case? They go the next morning, so this 145 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 2: is the second morning, they go back to the crime scene, 146 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 2: right before the break of day, and they were expecting swat, 147 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 2: they were expecting the whole brigade to be there, and 148 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: there's not a single person there at the trailer. At 149 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 2: the trailer right at this point, people have trampled the 150 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: crime scene. I mean, it's a mess. And the sun 151 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: comes up and within moments, moments literally, they find a 152 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: second body in the trailer. Is that right in the trailer? Yes, 153 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 2: where they found Kathy. She was face down on a waterbed, 154 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: her waterbed of the master bedroom. Her feet, what were 155 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 2: left of her feet because they had been mostly burned off, 156 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 2: were hanging off the bed. Danny's body was found face 157 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: up in the doorway of that bedroom. But they knew 158 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 2: it was him right away. See everything from here up, 159 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: everything from like the jaw up was missing. He had 160 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: a previous surgery. He'd accidentally shot himself in the head 161 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: while cleaning his a few years prior. Oh my gosh, 162 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 2: that's the story in and of itself, when he drove 163 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 2: himself with a bullet in his brain to the hospital, 164 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 2: got fed up with waiting, drove himself to a second hospital. Yeah, 165 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: he was tough, but anyway, he had a surgery where 166 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: they had to reconstruct his sinuses, so there was a 167 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 2: lot of wiring in his face. So when the Bibles 168 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 2: saw him, even though the top portion of his head 169 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 2: was missing, they can tell by the wiring that this 170 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: was Danny. And they could also see his genitalia here 171 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 2: that it was a male, So they knew right away 172 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 2: it was Danny that was the same day. They also 173 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 2: learned that Kathy and Danny had both been shot to 174 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: death before the fire was set. So now you have 175 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,719 Speaker 2: these parents both shot at close range. There goes the 176 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 2: cops theory that Danny has the girls because here he 177 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: is dead on the floor. So where are the girls? 178 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: Now? Let me ask you, just from a logistics standpoint, 179 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: to discover Kathy's body, didn't the police and investigators have 180 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: to walk over Danny if he's in the hallway. 181 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 2: Yes, And in fact, that was a big part of it. 182 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 2: That the family he's complained about was Steve Nutter, the 183 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: OSBI agent. He was the lead on the case. He 184 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: was the only one wearing cowboy boots, and they saw 185 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: his cowboy boots on Danny's Torso, oh gosh. When I 186 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 2: spoke to a Nutter years later, he's like, there was 187 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: no body to see. He was reduced to ash. It 188 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 2: was nothing, But that contradicts what we see in the 189 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: autopsy reports and what the Bible's witness. I mean, he 190 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: was very much intact. He was missing a hand and 191 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 2: he was missing the top portion of his but he 192 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: was mostly very much intact. 193 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: Yes, So he was tunnel focused on not somebody on 194 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: the floor potentially and maybe there was trash I mean, 195 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: was this a trash out trailer? 196 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, they said he could have been covered 197 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 2: with debris. I know for J. Bible who was the 198 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 2: first one to find the body, and Loreen was, you know, 199 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 2: right near him. They had noticed Ashley's dog. She had 200 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 2: a Rottweiler named Sissy, and Cissy was at Danny's body 201 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: and J. Bible saw her whimpering. They also saw a 202 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 2: big knot on the rottweiler's head. 203 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: So Jay finds Danny's body. Investigators had found Kathy's body 204 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,479 Speaker 1: on the waterbed. They are saying, just without an autopsy? 205 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: Are they at first blush saying must have been an 206 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: accidental fire and we don't know what happened to the 207 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: two girls? 208 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 3: What are they thinking? 209 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: The scene is saying at this point now that there 210 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: are two bodies and their suspect of less than twenty 211 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: four hours is dead. 212 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 2: Well, I think one of the first things that they 213 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: must have looked into was was this a murdered suicide, 214 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 2: which they figured it wasn't because there wasn't a firearm 215 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 2: found near Danny, so they ruled that out. And you know, 216 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 2: just based on the positioning of where they were shot. 217 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: And they were shot with shotguns, mind you. 218 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 3: So if we jumped to the autopsy, they were shot. 219 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 2: Yes, Kathy was shot in the back of the head 220 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 2: and Danny was shot under his chin, under his third molar, 221 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 2: so kind of on the side of his jaw. And 222 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: then from that point on, the Bibles were like, listen, 223 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 2: you missed the body. You know, speaking of law enforcement, 224 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 2: you missed the body. You had your chance. Now it's 225 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: our turn. So everyone in the community came to help. 226 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 2: And what they had was they had like this assembly 227 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: line of sorts going down this long driveway and they 228 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:00,119 Speaker 2: were sifting through the ashes. 229 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 3: Oh gosh. 230 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: People came and hung out in the back of their 231 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 2: pickup trucks. People came to hand out sandwiches, and the 232 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 2: families were going around looking for evidence and putting evidence 233 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 2: markers down and then calling the police to come over 234 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 2: and collect it. And law enforce is letting this happen. 235 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 3: Oh my god, they're not. 236 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: Saying, you guys can't be on the crime scene. So 237 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: now you have civilians trampling this crime scene literally in 238 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 2: the house. 239 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: And if you have an investigator that can't even identify 240 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: a body and is stepping on a body. Can you 241 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: imagine any material that was not recognized by these lay 242 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: people being stepped on. Man, what a contaminated crime scene? 243 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, very much so. And one of the things 244 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 2: that they found early on, but this did not come 245 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: into play for many years later, was they found an 246 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: insurance card. There was a private investigator on the scene. 247 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 2: His name was Tom, and Tom finds this insurance card 248 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: and he brings it over to the state agents saying, guys, 249 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 2: this might be something, it might be nothing, but it's peculiar. 250 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 2: I don't know why it's here at the end of 251 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: the driveway, but there's an insurance card and the state 252 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 2: agency and I think at this point they were a 253 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 2: bit red in the face because they'd missed a body. 254 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: I think, you know, they says, turn that around and 255 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: don't you come back to us, or I'm gonna have 256 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 2: your private investigation license revoked or whatever, like oh, they 257 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 2: didn't even have that power. It was just you know, 258 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 2: a threat. But like they were like, don't come at me, 259 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 2: you know, don't don't come here with your evidence. Let 260 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 2: us handle it. But that might have been to say, 261 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: for further embarrassment. 262 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: So we've got two people dead with shotgun wounds everywhere, 263 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: and you've got still two missing girls. One is their 264 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: biological daughter and the other one is the girl's best friend. 265 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: And the Bibles, of course, are very alarmed because you've 266 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: got the authority figures in the house where their daughter 267 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: was staying are now dead and the girls are missing. 268 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 2: So I'll just pack up for one second, cause I 269 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 2: know you asked this. Another thing they were looking into 270 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: was did the girls do this? Did Ashley and Laura 271 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 2: kill Allarance? Yes, that was something that they looked into 272 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: early on. 273 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 3: Wow, what is the next step? 274 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: Is the Oklahoma Bureau of the FBI involved at this point? 275 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: So at first the Craig County Sheriff's office, they were 276 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 2: the first to respond on the scene as far as 277 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 2: law enforcement, but because of the background with Shane, they 278 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 2: were like, listen, we have too much bad luck with 279 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: this family. 280 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, We're going. 281 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:10,839 Speaker 2: To call in the state agency. So they called in 282 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation the OSBI, and so 283 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 2: Steve Nutter was the lead on the case. The Feds 284 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: were never called in. They came in briefly for search 285 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 2: here and there, but they were never you know, actively investigating. 286 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: Okay, So the next step besides identifying that these two 287 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: people are victims of homicide and clearly somebody set this 288 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: place on fire, did they find an accelerant anywhere? Well? 289 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: See, And here's another thing is that there was no 290 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 2: official report, so a lot of it was word of mouth. 291 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: They had a retired fire marshall show up. He knew 292 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: the Bibles and he was like, yeah, I can see 293 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 2: an accelerant. It started at the fireplace, which was you know, 294 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: when you walked in, it was right to the left. 295 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,079 Speaker 2: It circled around this table here, but it was not officialized. 296 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: It was word of mouth, but that is what people 297 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: believe happened was yes, there was some kind of accelerant, 298 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,599 Speaker 2: like a gasoline accelerant. 299 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: The Sheriff's department has recused themselves from this case and 300 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 1: it's the OSBI. But the SBI has really botched this 301 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: so far because they've allowed lay people to trump all 302 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: over the scene. Where do they go from there? Once 303 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: they've established that Danny and Kathy are murder victims. 304 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 2: There's the first of many lulls in this case. There 305 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: really wasn't much going on, not to say that they 306 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 2: weren't actively investigating. I don't know because I wasn't there, 307 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 2: but I know that the families weren't hearing much unless 308 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: they called to see what's up. 309 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 3: Now. 310 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: For example, I know on that third day, maybe to 311 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 2: fourth day, they failed to put the girls into the 312 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 2: missing person's database. So Loreen did that herself. What she 313 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: was the one who made Ash's grandmother come down and 314 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 2: get a DNA test. So a lot of this is 315 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: like the family's own investigating. They're the ones knocking on doors, 316 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: they're the ones doing the investigations, and the Sheriff's office 317 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: is kind of backed off from this. The OSBI they're 318 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: over in Tulsa and they're distant, and so from there 319 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 2: it's really their own investigation. Quickly, they start getting tips 320 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 2: looking into meth related activity. 321 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: Did the Bibles offer a reward and was there just 322 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: an established tip line that came out? 323 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 2: Yes, the family raised their own reward. They had a 324 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 2: pot luck dinner and it was the community members who 325 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 2: raised this fifty thousand dollars reward, which is still in place. 326 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 3: Wow. 327 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: Okay, so they are getting tips in and now it 328 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: seems like they're focusing on some what is it drug 329 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: dealers or traffickers or something related to the now burgeoning 330 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: meth industry. 331 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 3: That might be coming into Oklahoma. 332 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 2: There were a lot of rumors of a New Year's 333 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: Eve party that the girls were taking to a home 334 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 2: where they were raped and shot up with meth and murdered, 335 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: and that it was videotaped. And so the Bibles really 336 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 2: started looking at this theory, and it brought them to 337 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 2: a town called wine Dot, and wine Dot is very 338 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 2: there are a lot of movers and shakers and wind 339 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 2: dott as far as the meth world. But they were 340 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 2: rumors early on, and they chased every single lead down 341 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 2: the family did. There were several searches on some meth properties. 342 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 2: Then there was a confession of a serial killer named 343 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: Tommy land Cells. 344 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 3: We know that name. 345 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: We've had an author who wrote about him quite a 346 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: bit on the show. Yeah, and he was a prolific 347 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: serial killer, and these two young girls would have fit 348 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: his demographic. 349 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: I know that investigators in Oklahoma went down there and 350 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: they got him out of prison for a day. I 351 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 2: think he was on death row. I think they got 352 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 2: him out of death row for a day. But he 353 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: eventually said that he just wanted a cheeseburger, so you 354 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: know he kind of let them on the school's chase. 355 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: It ended up with nothing, and then you know they're 356 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: chasing these lower to the ground leads and the biggest 357 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: one they get is Jeremy Jones. Jeremy Jones will be 358 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 2: their biggest break for several years. 359 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: Now, tell me about Jeremy Jones and how he could 360 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: have possibly been related to these two young women or 361 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: to the Freeman family in general. 362 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: So, Jeremy Jones was arrested in Mobile, Alabama on an 363 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: unrelated murder. That was the murder of Lisa Nichols. She 364 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 2: was shot to death and her trailer burned, very similar 365 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 2: to them scene with the Freeman family. But what made 366 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:13,719 Speaker 2: this very interesting was that Jeremy Jones came from Miama, Oklahoma, 367 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 2: which is very close to Welch. They start looking back 368 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 2: at the night of the murders and they can pinpoint 369 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: that Jeremy Jones was in the area that night. Jeremy Jones, 370 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 2: he was getting high at a nearby motel and like, 371 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 2: this is a really nasty, shady motel and he was 372 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 2: doing mess with some guy named Cowboy. Cowboy went to 373 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 2: go kick his ass because he was annoying him, and 374 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 2: then Jeremy got arrested, and Jeremy was talking all kinds 375 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 2: of nonsense, like cowboys gonna kill me, They're out to 376 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 2: get me, the shadows are out to get me. You know. 377 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 2: He does an overnight er in jail for like a 378 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 2: drunken disorderly something along those lines, depending on who you 379 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 2: believe with when Kathy and Danny were killed, because there 380 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: is a lot of question about the exact time of death. 381 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,239 Speaker 2: But eventually he goes on the run. He assumes a 382 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 2: false identity, and he is accused of killing several people, 383 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 2: but he's only ever convicted of killing Lisa Nichols. So 384 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 2: he's currently on death row in Alabama. 385 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 3: So what is the connection? 386 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: Just that he's in the area and he can't count 387 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: for his whereabouts during the timeframe of when they think 388 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: these girls went missing. 389 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 2: The interrogations were very he was fed a lot of 390 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 2: information and what he would tell me years later, and 391 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 2: I'm inclined to believe this is that you know, listen, 392 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 2: they were offering him more phone time and better things 393 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 2: in prison, So he was like, I would tell him 394 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: whatever they want, you know, I just wanted to talk 395 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 2: to my girlfriend. 396 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 3: Wow. 397 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 2: But one of the accounts, he said, and he gave 398 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: burying accounts, and he couldn't get it right. He said 399 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 2: he shot him with a handgun, then it was a shotgun. 400 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 2: Then he killed the girls here, then he killed the 401 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 2: girls there, blah blah blah. He couldn't get a story straight. 402 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 2: But he kind of had this version where he knew 403 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 2: a guy that Danny Freeman might have owed him money 404 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 2: for and so he went and killed him, but he 405 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: was confusing it with another man Danny, who was also 406 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: killed in the area, also shot to death and this 407 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 2: trailer burned down on a waterbed. Very similar crimes. 408 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 3: What two similar crimes in rural Oklahoma? 409 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 2: In this area it was another couple, Yeah, shot to 410 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 2: death in their waterbed and they were very into math, 411 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 2: these two Danny and Doris. Yeah, it was very similar, 412 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 2: and Jeremy actually had more connections to that one that 413 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 2: one remains unsolved today. 414 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: So does the OSBI think that these two waterbed murders 415 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: are connected? 416 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 3: How can they say definitively? We don't think. 417 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 2: So. There were similarities to Danny and Kathy's death and 418 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 2: Danny and Doris's death, but when they were investigating Danny 419 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: and Doris's death. It was a different group of people. 420 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: It was a different list of suspects. Okay, they did 421 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 2: have a strong suspect and he died I believe, with 422 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 2: national clauses during the course of their investigation, but it 423 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 2: didn't look like the. 424 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 3: Same Okay, so what is the next big break? 425 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: Because it sounds like the Bibles are very frustrated they're 426 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: not getting a whole lot of help from the OSBI. 427 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like there was a ton of media attention, 428 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: was there. I'm just so surprised with two missing girls 429 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: that there wasn't a huge amount of pressure from big 430 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: cities and people kind of coming in and really wanting 431 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: to add publicity. 432 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: You know. That was what really attracted me to this 433 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: story too, was like, how is this not out there? Yeah, 434 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 2: so Jeremy Jones on death row. He eventually recanted, so 435 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 2: he was kind of taken off the table, and a 436 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 2: lot of people still believe that he might have had 437 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 2: something to do with it. I personally don't, just based 438 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 2: on my limited knowledge, I don't think he did, and 439 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 2: of course what we know now, But so there wasn't 440 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 2: a break for a long time. But then there was 441 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 2: a lot of things happening at once. There were new 442 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 2: agents on the case, and they were a hell of 443 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 2: a lot better than the former administration. So you have 444 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 2: the District attorney's investigator, Gary Stancil and OSBI agent Tammy Ferrari, 445 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: and they're very much hands on. They themselves were not 446 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 2: happy with how the investigation was handled years ago, so 447 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 2: they step in. This is around the time I'm getting 448 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,479 Speaker 2: to know the family, and then the family creates the 449 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: Fine Laura Bible Facebook page and that opens a door 450 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 2: to a bunch of new tips. Okay, soon people say, well, 451 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 2: you need to talk to a guy named Charlie Crider. 452 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: So Charlie Kreider is from Chetaba, Kansas, now in well 453 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: To Oklahoma. It's right here, and then Chittoba, KNTS is 454 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,719 Speaker 2: the next town north. So even though they're in different states, 455 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 2: they're very close. You could, I mean, if it wasn't 456 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 2: so rural, you can nearly walk there, but you do 457 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: have to do with this drive around. But yeah, it's 458 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 2: not far all. And Charlie Kreider was one of the 459 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 2: best friends of Danny Freeman, but he was convicted of 460 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 2: murdering a woman in Chautoka, Kansas, an older woman named 461 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 2: Judith and she was found in a creek half naked. 462 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 2: Believes we've been strangled with the belt or something similar. 463 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 2: So Charlie was convicted of that. I think it was 464 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 2: second degree something, you know, Gonna gree murdered, something along 465 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 2: those lines. So we didn't do a lot of time. 466 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,959 Speaker 2: And by the time this push started coming, you know, 467 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 2: with with with the publicity and the Facebook page and 468 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 2: the new agents, it was the time he got out 469 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 2: of prison. So when I started talking to him, he 470 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 2: was still in prison and then when night, you know, 471 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: he was let out soon after and a lot of 472 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 2: people were like, well, maybe we should look at him. 473 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 2: So he offers something new, like listen, me and Danny 474 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: were into growing pot. We were excellent at it too, 475 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 2: Like we were the guys to go to. So there 476 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 2: was a lot of meth talk in the past and 477 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 2: a lot about metha infetamines, but there was nothing to 478 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 2: conclusively tie the Freemans to meth. There was never anything 479 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 2: found at the scene to suggest that this is what 480 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 2: you know it was. But now we have Charlie saying 481 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 2: it was pot, and you know, he got in a 482 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 2: little bit of trouble and shortly before his murder. This 483 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 2: is according to Charlie Crideror the convicted murder from Chataua, Kansas. 484 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 2: Three people showed up on his doorstep just days before 485 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: the murder, and Danny took out a shotgun and said, 486 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 2: get the hell off my property. Charlie never said who 487 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 2: that was. We can only assume that they might have 488 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 2: known something. So Charlie offers this new information and that's 489 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 2: the next biggest lead. So then there were searches at 490 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 2: Charlie's former property. There was a well and there was 491 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: a basement, and there was whispers that you know, these 492 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: are small towns. There's lots of rumors and there's no 493 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 2: shortage of them. So you know, after doing searches, they 494 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: couldn't find the girls. But having the investigators now when Chittoba, 495 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 2: Kansas opens this can of worms and now people in 496 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 2: Chitopah are starting to squalk. And that's where the suspects Pennington, 497 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 2: welch Abusic coming because they were all from Chatouba. 498 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: Now, how are they connecting them to Charlie Kreiter to 499 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: Danny Freeman. Is there a definitive connection. 500 00:23:55,320 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 2: There's not a definitive connection. There's silly little connections. David 501 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 2: Pennington and Charlie Krider been in school together since kindergarten. 502 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 2: But that doesn't prove anything, right, It was just being 503 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 2: in that location that people started to come forward. That 504 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 2: was the real thing, was that all of a sudden, 505 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 2: we have this new group of people from Chetopah saying 506 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 2: we know something, we know something, we know something. So 507 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 2: eventually and he has to come public. So in the Ethidavid, 508 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 2: he's known as R E. R E, comes forward and 509 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 2: he's like, listen, my mom dated this guy named Phil Welch. 510 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 2: Phil Welch had some polaroid pictures of the girls from 511 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 2: a New Year's Eve party and the girls were duct taped, 512 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 2: they were gagged, they were bound, and you know, he 513 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 2: bragged about the killings, as did two other men named 514 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 2: David Pennington and Ronnie Busick. So now we have these 515 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 2: three guys. They all have ties to Chataupa. 516 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: You. 517 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: Sick and Pennington are from Chetopah, they're raised in Chatopah. 518 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 2: And Welch came from Kansas, you know, more central Kansas, 519 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 2: and he was a big time meth cook. He was 520 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 2: a very frightening individual. He had this group of borderline cultish. 521 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 2: It probably wasn't big enough to be a cult. But 522 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 2: he was very religious, but not in a healthy way, 523 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 2: much more on the fanatical way, and most of it 524 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 2: was driven by meth. Of course, he thought he was divine, 525 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: and he had these followers. You know, Pennington and Welch 526 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 2: were more like scragglers, just you know, they were there 527 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 2: for the meth. Now, all of them had history of 528 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: beating their women. Welch especially was very, very horrible to 529 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 2: his wives and children. He was really a dangerous, dangerous guy, 530 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,959 Speaker 2: and there were always rumors that he'd killed many people. 531 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:34,959 Speaker 2: I personally wouldn't be surprised one bit. 532 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: So our police, the OSBI, then making a bee line 533 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: to Kansas to have a discussion with these three men 534 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: plus Charlie Kreiter about all of this new information and 535 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: where are we in time if the girls have been 536 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: missing since December thirtieth of nineteen ninety nine. 537 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 2: So this all comes to a head in early twenty eighteen, 538 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 2: now that they get the names around seventeen. Now, around 539 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 2: this time, miraculously, the Craig County Sheriff's Office finds a 540 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 2: crate of evidence that's been lost since nineteen ninety nine 541 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 2: and inside is Phil Welch's name. And then this private 542 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 2: investigator Tom comes forward. Do you remember I told you 543 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 2: they found the insurance card at the crime scene. Well 544 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 2: that has Phil Welch's girlfriend's name on it. So all 545 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 2: these things had they followed up in their card, there's 546 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: a very strong possibility they could have found the girls. 547 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 2: Now what we know now is that the girls were 548 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 2: kept alive for two weeks. 549 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, So now we really understand what's happening here. 550 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: And the Bibles have been tortured for almost twenty years. 551 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, twenty years almost. So after our e comes forward 552 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 2: saying I think Phil Welch, and they start looking at 553 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 2: Phil Welch and they start talking to his girlfriend and 554 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 2: his family. Then people are starting to talk, Yeah, we 555 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 2: know Phil Welch killed those girls. You know, we knew 556 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 2: that he killed those parents, and so did Pennington Abusic. 557 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 2: So word gets around very quickly and then it's like 558 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 2: one tip after another. So the new agents on the case, 559 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 2: Stancel and Ferrari, they you know, kind of hit the 560 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 2: ground running with this information. And in twenty eighteen they say, yes, 561 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 2: we believe that these three men are the ones responsible 562 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 2: for the murders. Now, Phil Welch had died of als 563 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,479 Speaker 2: in two thousand and seven and Pennington died in twenty fifteen, 564 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 2: so they just missed him. He had copd you know, emphysema, 565 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 2: So only Busick was left. And Busick is like this 566 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 2: bumbling scraggler. He had been shot in the head, so 567 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 2: he had some form of brain damage. You couple that 568 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 2: with years of methamphetamine use. He's very hard to get 569 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: anything out of. 570 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 3: Are they connecting a gun? Who has the shotgun? 571 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 2: Never found? But do you remember when I said that 572 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 2: the locals were all on the crime scene looking for things. 573 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 2: They found all the guns and they put them out 574 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 2: on the lawn for cops to pick them up. Cops 575 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 2: never picked them up. We don't know who has those 576 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 2: guns or if any of them were used. 577 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 1: We're not sure based on what Rodney is saying or 578 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: all of the information the investigators are pulling together, what 579 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: do we know happens these three guys go to the 580 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: trailer that night and what transpires aside from of course, 581 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: pulling out a shotgun and killing this couple. 582 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 2: So a lot of what we know is from Ronnie's 583 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 2: testimony and Ronnie you know, he's funny because we don't 584 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 2: know if he's really conniving or if he's really just 585 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 2: you know, because he says, now, they handed him a 586 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 2: deal on a silver plotter, can you tell us where 587 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 2: the girls are? You'll virtually walk And he says, he 588 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 2: says they're here, and I think he believed it, and 589 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: you know, I can't see why he wouldn't have given 590 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 2: up the girls. And I wonder if he really knows, 591 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I phil Welch was the head honchowing. 592 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 2: This now what I think happened. And there might be 593 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: people with other opinions, but I think the more common 594 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 2: theory is this. We learned after the arrest that Phil 595 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 2: Welch lived less than a mile from the Freemans. And 596 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 2: it was so wild because I'd passed this home a 597 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 2: million times and like, never knew that this little shock 598 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 2: over here was his house. No one knew it. A 599 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: lot of people think Danny might have been into math. 600 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 2: I'm not sure there was never any evidence to say that. 601 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 2: I do think he was in the pot. I think 602 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: he was into growing pot, and I think there was 603 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 2: some kind of deal, now whether or not he owed 604 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 2: them pot or owed them money or a drug deal 605 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 2: gone bad. I don't know what we do know from 606 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 2: the autopsy reporters. Right before Danny died, his collar bone 607 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 2: was broken, and I think Danny answered the door. I 608 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: think he heard that dog. I think that dog was 609 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 2: barking Sissy. He got up armed because you know, Danny 610 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 2: wasn't taking no shit, and I think Phil was the 611 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 2: same way. He wasn't taking no shit. And I think 612 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: they broke his collarbone with the gun. I think that 613 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: that's why Sissy had a big bump on her head and. 614 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 3: They hit her with the butt of the gun. 615 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, they shot Danny. Cathy was running across the bed 616 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 2: because right at the other side of the bed was 617 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 2: a shotgun. She knew where it was. I think she 618 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 2: was going for that shotgun to defend herself, and they 619 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 2: got her in the back of the head. Again, a 620 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 2: lot of variations, but according to Ronnie and then this 621 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 2: is what I believe. I think they didn't know the 622 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 2: girls were there, and they started to leave, and then 623 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 2: the dog started barking and gave the girls up. They 624 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 2: had been hiding in the pasture. They'd escaped the fire, 625 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 2: and they were hiding in the grass and one of 626 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 2: them poked their heads up and they saw it, and 627 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 2: then they corralled the girls. 628 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: Is that what Rodney says happened, is that they spotted 629 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: the girls after they had escaped. 630 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 2: Oh boy, Yes, And that's what I believe. And I 631 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 2: think it's likely maybe Sissy gave them up or you know, 632 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 2: I know Ronnie said that it was the light of 633 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 2: the fire, but from what we know it was well 634 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 2: too pulled the trigger and Pennington and Busix at the fire, 635 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: or maybe just Pennington set the fire, We're not sure. 636 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: So then they take the girls. Now, there was a 637 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 2: witness that night who saw a car with men in 638 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 2: the front seat and the girls in the back seat 639 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 2: racing away. They made eye contact with Laura. It really 640 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 2: fit what happened that night that the girls took them 641 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 2: back to Picture Oklahoma. I didn't get into this. Picture 642 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 2: Oklahoma is a ghost town now, but it was a 643 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 2: big lead mining town, full of literally thousands of square 644 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 2: miles and underground freeways and highways, like massive tunnels for 645 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 2: lead mining. It was one of the biggest I think 646 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 2: like ninety percent of the ammunition in World War two 647 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 2: came from Picture Oklahoma. I mean, it was it's huge 648 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 2: and now there's no one there. But that's where Phil 649 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 2: lived and that's where he cooked math. So we think 650 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 2: that they took the girls back to that trailer, Phil 651 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 2: Welch's trailer. They held them down, they gang rate them, 652 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 2: they shot them with math. According to ra they strangled 653 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 2: them to death. 654 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 3: Wow. 655 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:18,959 Speaker 2: And we don't know that for certain because the bodies 656 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 2: have never been found. Ronnie, he was sentenced to ten 657 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 2: years in prison, which is nothing for him. He's spent 658 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 2: most of his life in prison anyway, for petty and 659 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 2: drug stuff. But yeah, he was convicted and Loreen Bible 660 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 2: gave a powerful witness impact statement. I was very honored. 661 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 2: I was in the court with them when she looked 662 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 2: him in the eye and said I forgive you. And 663 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 2: she wrote this letter about how she forgives the man 664 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 2: who helped kill her daughter. It was so powerful. It 665 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 2: was so so powerful. 666 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: And Rodney is not able or not willing to give 667 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: the location of where the girls are. 668 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 2: Correct. I don't even think he knows. 669 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 3: You think he was so high that he can't. 670 00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 2: I just don't think he was there for it. I 671 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 2: think he was probably there for the assaults. I think 672 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 2: he was there for the party. Part. But you know, 673 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 2: when Phil Welch got rid of the bodies, I'm I'm 674 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 2: not sure anyone was there for it. 675 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: So Jay and Loreene Bible believe everything essentially that Rodney says. 676 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 3: They believe that version, the version that you just told. 677 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: They're the most open minded. They're like, we're not going 678 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 2: to believe anything till we you know know for certain. 679 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 2: You know, I think that they've heard so many varying 680 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 2: things over the years that they've kind of learned not 681 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: to focus on one thing, you know, not to settle 682 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 2: on one theory. But you know, I know that for them, 683 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 2: these killers being named didn't really offer much closure. You know, 684 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 2: they're they're not going to be satisfied until those girls 685 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 2: are found. That's their their number one mission in life. 686 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: And you said that there is still a fifty thousand 687 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: dollars reward offered for the location of where their bodies are. 688 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And I know they're actively looking. I know 689 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 2: that they keep chasing tips and you know they've been 690 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 2: looking in Chatouba. They've been looking. I know on Picture 691 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 2: is a popular place to look because it's very possible 692 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 2: that the girls were disposed of in a mine and 693 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 2: if that's the case, you might never find them because 694 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 2: they're too hazardous to access. 695 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: What does the OSBI say about all of this? Are 696 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: they involved at this point at all? 697 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 2: Yes, Tammy Ferrari, the OSBI agent, and Gary Stancil, who's 698 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 2: the DA's investigators, they're very into this and I know 699 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 2: they're working side by side and really they work very hard. 700 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: What about the Freeman's family, Is there anyone brothers or 701 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: uncles or anybody parent, grandparents who are able to represent 702 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: their side in these witness impact statements at the six trial? 703 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to understand, you know, they came to 704 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 2: this from a very different point of view than the Bibles. 705 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 2: The Bibles were very set out on finding where are 706 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 2: the girls? And I think the Freeman's kind of took 707 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 2: this angle, why did this happen? What caused this? So 708 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 2: they were very focused on Shane, which we didn't get 709 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 2: too much into, but you know, they were very much 710 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 2: into Shane and the police corruption a well, you know. 711 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 3: Is that what you think? Do you think there's anything 712 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 3: to that that? 713 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: Now let's go back several years, a couple of decades, 714 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: where you have the seventeen year old who seems to 715 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: be a little bit of a troublemaker, kind of like 716 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: his dad, and he is shot down by a deputy 717 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: in rural Oklahoma. And now what we have the freeman's 718 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: who are saying, we think this is kind of one 719 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: big cover up. Are they accusing the sheriff's office, who 720 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: had recused itself of covering up anything or being even 721 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: involved with these four potential murders. 722 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 2: I don't think that their suspicions are unwarranted. I think 723 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 2: they had very every reason to suspect the things that 724 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 2: they suspect. Whether or not they're substantiated, there's nothing yet. 725 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 2: But there was a lot of other factors in this too, 726 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 2: Like you know, Kathy Frman's best friend spoke outwardly about 727 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 2: the cops having something to do with it, and then 728 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 2: she was murdered my god later, you know, you know, 729 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 2: so like there was a lot of like like weird things. 730 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: So I totally unders where the freemans are coming from 731 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 2: and why they believe this. Now, when Shane was shot 732 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 2: and killed, there was the question, you know, was he armed, 733 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 2: because that was the official stance was that he pulled 734 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 2: a gun on this cop. The cop shot him dead. 735 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 2: The freeman says, there was no gun or could this 736 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 2: have been a suicide by cop or could this have 737 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 2: been a justified shooting? You know, none of us were there. 738 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 2: We don't know, they don't know. But what we do 739 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 2: know is that the Freeman family were pissed off one 740 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 2: way or another and they wanted to file a wrongful 741 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 2: death suit against the Craig County Sheriff's office. They had 742 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 2: one year to do so. Less than a week before 743 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 2: that window expired, they were murdered. 744 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 3: Wow. 745 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 2: Though it does lend to a lot of conspiracy theories, 746 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 2: but I don't think that they're not merited. I think, 747 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 2: you know, I think whether or not they're substantiated, it's 748 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 2: a different story. But I don't think it's you know, 749 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,479 Speaker 2: unreasonable to ask yourself, was there something involved like that? Here? 750 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: There's an awful lot of death happening. I mean, you're 751 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: talking about witnesses who are dying of natural causes. You're 752 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: talking about witnesses and people who were involved, you know, 753 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: he's best friend and this guy cowboy, who are murdered in. 754 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 3: An unnatural way. 755 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a there's a lot happening in 756 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: this story, which takes place in a tiny little area 757 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: in rural Oklahoma. This just seems improbable to me that 758 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: there's not a lot of connections happening between these cases. 759 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 3: But you're right. 760 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: I mean, when people die, what are you going to do? 761 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: You just have Rodney left. 762 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 2: It goes back to one of the first questions you asked, like, 763 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 2: what are the themes of this story? And I think 764 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 2: that this is small town America ravish with meth and 765 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,280 Speaker 2: the drug epidemic in this country. This is a small 766 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 2: town that could be beautiful, and there are such beautiful parts. 767 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, dripping sunsets and vast prairies. It's 768 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 2: a beautiful place. But when you have the failing of 769 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 2: economies like with what we saw with this led town, 770 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 2: and we have poverty, drugs come in. 771 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:52,760 Speaker 3: Were the Bibles? 772 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: Were they appreciative of your book and of the CNN special, 773 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: because you know, this is shining a on a case 774 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: that seems to have been forgotten from nineteen ninety nine. 775 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that they were appreciative of it. I 776 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 2: know I was very appreciative of it, and I really 777 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 2: formed a lot of new friendships. I remember I was 778 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 2: actually in Oklahoma when the show aired. I remember Jay, 779 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 2: you know, just like pulling me close and crying and 780 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 2: holding saying that that was like the best version of 781 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 2: the story. I think it was like the most told 782 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 2: in depth version. I don't think that they were surprised 783 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 2: with anything in the book, and I know a lot 784 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 2: of writers don't agree with this. I didn't let one 785 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 2: sentence not go by the families. They said, I was 786 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:34,959 Speaker 2: this chapter? How was this? And I, you know, because 787 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 2: I want to be out for accuracy and I'm trying 788 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 2: to tell their story, so I wanted it to be accurate. 789 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 2: So they knew what was going to be published. It 790 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 2: wasn't a surprise. I've been very blessed to have them 791 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 2: in my lives, you know. Even still, we're all very close. 792 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 2: Even now, you know, right now I'm planning a cruise 793 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 2: with some of the family. Wow, it's a blessing. You know. 794 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 2: It's not even related to work. We're just we just 795 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 2: became very close friends. 796 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 1: Well, when people ask me why my chow and genre 797 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: and concentration in journalism is crime, I think that exactly 798 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: what you're saying, that example is why it is something 799 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: that I think is universally understood. The fear that you're 800 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: going to lose your child or your parent, and something 801 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: that can't be controlled, that can't be cured by going 802 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: to the doctor, taking medicine. There's just a feeling of 803 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: being ripped away and that enduring fear. And so I 804 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: think when you have someone like you who is saying, 805 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: let me help in some way, regardless of your you know, 806 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 1: this is your job. You're making money, you're selling a book, 807 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: but there are other ways to sell books, and you're 808 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: doing this to really help move. 809 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 3: This story forward. 810 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: So I can see why they would feel close to you. 811 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: And I know that there's always an ongoing debate as 812 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: a journalist of how close do you allow yourselves to get? 813 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:48,919 Speaker 1: And I think the more and more the older I get, 814 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: the more that I see my contemporaries saying we do 815 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: feel comfortable being closer to sources now because we're feeling 816 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: the pain that they feel. And it sounds like that's 817 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 1: sort of what category you've fallen in to. 818 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 2: A lot of people don't realize I had my start 819 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 2: in fiction. I was a fiction writer before this, and 820 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,800 Speaker 2: I did well with fiction. I was living in Ireland 821 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 2: when I decided to write this story, so I kind 822 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 2: of came back to America from Ireland, just to write this. 823 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 2: But you know, I made a lot of mistakes along 824 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 2: the way. I think I was very naive going into it, 825 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 2: and I made plenty of mistakes, And there are mistakes 826 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,919 Speaker 2: I think that a lot of people in the true 827 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 2: crime community do make, you know, I think it's easy 828 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 2: to become unfocused at why you're there and what you 829 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 2: really want to do. And for me, working on the 830 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 2: story was such a learning experience because it showed me 831 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 2: what I didn't want to be. I didn't want to 832 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 2: be that person who just wants to write a book 833 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 2: and take the money and run. And I didn't want 834 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 2: to be this person who just makes them rip open 835 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 2: their worst times of their lives and run off. I 836 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 2: really feel like, in my heart, I really just wanted 837 00:39:49,040 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 2: to help them have a voice. 838 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 839 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 840 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 841 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,760 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Amerosi. Our associate 842 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: producer is Alex chi. This episode was mixed by John Bradley. 843 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive 844 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff, and Danielle Kramer. Follow 845 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,760 Speaker 1: Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked 846 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:34,879 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold more. 847 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 3: And if you know of a historical. 848 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,839 Speaker 1: Crime that could use some attention from the crew at 849 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: tenfold more Wicked, email us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. 850 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for 851 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: Wicked Words