WEBVTT - From the Vault: Stargazer and the Well 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:10.039 Hello, and welcome to the Stuff to Blow Your Mind Podcast. 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:14.159 My name is Joe McCormick. This episode is publishing on 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:16.880 a Tuesday, which means we would normally have an all 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:19.759 new core episode of the show for you, but my 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.319 regular co host Robert Lamb is a little bit under 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:26.239 the weather this week, so instead we are bringing you 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:29.479 an episode from the vault while Rob recovers. So he 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:31.880 should be back on Mike soon and we should be 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:34.479 able to continue the series that we were in the 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.240 middle of before this week, So that was a series 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:40.199 on childhood amnesia. More on that in the future, but 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:44.440 for now, we hope you enjoyed this vault episode called 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.480 The Stargazer and the Well, which originally published May fifth, 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:55.680 twenty twenty two. Enjoy Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 0:00:55.960 --> 0:01:05.840 production of iHeartRadio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:09.600 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.600 today's episode, we're going to discuss a very old association 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:20.480 between astronomy and wells, and this ties into various ancient 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:26.920 anecdotes and also archaeological sites. Basically getting it down to 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:30.039 this idea that if you have a well if you 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.200 have a deep pit or even a long tube, that 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:39.440 this could allow an individual to see starlight during the day. 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:41.560 Had you ever heard of this, Joe, No, I don't 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:44.640 think not before you brought this up. Yeah, this is 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:46.399 and this is one that there was more to it 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:50.160 the more I kept looking into it, but instantly it's 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:52.400 kind of a captivating idea of you know nothing about 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.480 it because there's something about the two extremes in play here, 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.520 the bottom of an earthly pit and the light of 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:02.200 distant stars. You know, it reminds me of that that 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:06.360 that far more recent quote by author Oscar Wilde in 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:10.960 his play A Lady Windermere's Fan, which, even if you're 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:12.800 not familiar with that source, you may have heard this, 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:15.840 this particular quote quote, we are all in the gutter, 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:19.600 but some of us are looking at the stars. Well 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:21.480 that's a great sentiment. Yeah, I guess I take it 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.760 to mean that maybe one's character is defined not by 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:28.280 the not by where your body is, but by where 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:32.360 your thoughts are aimed. Yeah. Now, one guess starting place 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:36.079 for this is that a lot of the especially more 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:40.880 recent writings you see and illusions referring to this, well, 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:45.000 astronomy situation will frequently point out that, okay, well you 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.839 had you had Aristotle mentioning and passing, and of course 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:51.320 plenty of the elder mentions it. So let's start with 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:56.280 the Aristotle quote. He does mention it kind of has 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.320 an aside, and it is in chapter five of the 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:03.080 fourth century BC text Generation of Animals. Okay, so this 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.519 is going to be setting up the relationship between looking 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:07.240 out of a well or a tube and seeing the 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:12.080 stars in the daytime. Right, So this is what Aristotle says. Quote. 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.680 The cause of some animals being keen sided and others 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.080 not so is not simple but double. For the word 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.360 keene has pretty much a double sense, and this is 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.920 the case in like manner with hearing and smelling. In 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.720 one sense, keen site means the power of seeing at 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.920 a distance. In another, it means the power of distinguishing 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:36.440 as accurately as possible the objects seen. These two faculties 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:40.240 are not necessarily combined in the same individual. For the 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:42.920 same person, if he shades his eyes with his hand 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.560 or look through a tube, does not distinguish the differences 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.000 of color either more or less in any way, but 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.960 he will see further. In fact, men in pits or 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:58.720 wells sometimes see the stars. But one of the curious 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:00.880 things here though, and this is ultimately the like the 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.200 hard fact that we will keep coming back to and 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.720 thinking about this, is that during the day we cannot 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:12.200 see the stars, right, you know, not with the naked eye. 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.640 And I think i've read that like the brightest star 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:18.760 not counting the sun. Of course, the brightest star in 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:21.080 the night sky would have to be something like five 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:23.359 times as bright for the human eye to see it 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:25.760 during the day. So this is one of those things 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.920 that's right from the get go here, it's not going 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.600 to match up with any experience out there. Though, if 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:34.520 you have had the experience of standing in a pit 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.839 and looking up and seeing the night sky during the daytime, 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:40.600 certainly right in and tell us more about this. But 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:44.600 but for the most part, yeah, it goes against everything 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.279 we expect to be true from our modern perspective. And 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:51.560 yet we see multiple references to this being a reality. 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.680 And granted a lot of these are secondhand in the 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:57.800 nature of a lot of these ancient texts. For instance, 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.279 plenty of the elder who's kind of a champ end 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.000 of the second or third hand account of the natural world, 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.719 he chimes in on this a little bit in natural history. Quote, 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:10.040 the sun's radiance makes the fixed stars invisible in daytime, 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:12.560 although they are shining as much as in the night, 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:15.760 which becomes manifest at a solar or eclipse, and also 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:19.800 when the star is reflected in a very deep Well. Oh, well, 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:23.919 he's doing really good up until that very last part. Yeah, 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.120 and that's that's something you said. I mean, because first 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:27.400 of all, a lot of this, a lot of the 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:29.800 times we're talking not talking about, like, you know, just 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:33.599 pure folklore here, we're talking about very learned individuals of 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:37.920 their age, individuals who who you know, often knew something 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:43.080 or a lot concerning astronomy during their time, and they're 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:45.800 chiming in on this as if it is true or 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:48.320 said to be true. Well, I mean, he is absolutely 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:51.920 correct that the stars are still shining during the daytime 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.359 just like they are at night. It's the problem is 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.320 simply that their light is drowned out by the glare 0:05:57.320 --> 0:05:59.800 of the sun. So it's not as if, I mean, 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:02.520 you might assume, if you were just going by intuition, 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.880 that the stars turn off their lights during the day 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.279 or something, you know, that they somehow disappear no, that 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:11.800 they're still there. They're always there, we just can't see 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.200 them because there's too much light from this other light source. Yeah. 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.000 So so almost everything oh yeah about that statement is corrected. 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.839 But at the end he loves it. Now. One of 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:24.719 the sources I was looking at for this is a 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:29.840 nineteen fifty three paper by Eiden Psi Aali and this 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:32.960 was republished in two thousand and seven by the Foundation 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:37.839 for Science, Technology and Civilization. So Psi Aali major Turkish 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:42.239 science historian. So important that he's actually on a bank note. 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:44.760 You can if you look him up on like Wikipedia, 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:48.360 you can see see his face on currency. Wow. But 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:52.040 this is a very nice little overview of this concept 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.680 and touches on, you know, the fact that it not 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:57.200 only pops up in the history of astronomy, but it 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.200 also pops up in folklore and literature of vary as 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.640 different cultures. And the idea is basically what we've been discussing, 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:05.359 that one may stand at the bottom of a well 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.800 or something similar, like a great pit or some sort 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:11.760 of natural formation of caves, and if you look up 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:15.360 you can glimpse the stars during the day. And Psiali 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:18.760 writes that sometimes this is just a vague tidbit without 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:22.400 any specifics, like it's just alluded to, Oh, one can 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.119 do this, and this has been done. But other times 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:29.520 it's connected to specific individuals and times. So the author 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:33.120 mentions several more examples here, and I'm going to touch 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:36.040 on them here. So first of all, it points out 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:40.600 that Greek astronomer Cleomides says that the sun appears larger 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.559 when seen from the bottom of a deep cistern because 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.840 of the darkness and the moisture of the air, though 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.880 it does not make mention of actual what we'll discuss 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:53.120 in a bit, actual observation wells some sort of a 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:55.640 well or deep shaft in the earth that is used, 0:07:56.400 --> 0:08:00.880 that is either built or repurposed or used for looking 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:04.040 at the stars. Another individual he points to is the 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:10.520 writings of Islamic philosopher Abu Barrakat al Baghdatti, who lived 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:15.200 ten eighty through eleven sixty four or eleven sixty five CE, 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.560 And this individual actually wrote a text titled on the 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:21.160 reason why the stars are visible at night and hidden 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:24.679 in daytime, and in this he contends that it comes 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:29.040 down to illumination of part of the atmosphere immediately above 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:33.760 the observer, and he does not mention observation wells specifically either, 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:37.160 And then you have Leonardo da Vinci also contending that 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.960 the atmosphere is dense and full of moisture particles that 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:44.280 during the daylight reflect radiance to obscure the stars. So 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:49.680 again there's another example. Davinci's not talking about observation wells. 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.720 But Psyali contends that all three of these lines of 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.320 thinking quote would seem to be in agreement with, or 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.040 even inspired by, the claim that from the bottom of 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.679 a well or in a tall tower, which is to say, 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.400 at the bottom of a tall tower, which would prevent 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.559 the illumination of a portion of the atmosphere immediately above 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:09.960 the observer, star has become visible in daytime. Okay, so 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.559 I think I'm catching onto the intuitive current that's driving this. 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:17.320 Might it be something like this. I can see the 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:22.040 stars in the nighttime when things are dark. Therefore, darkness 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.880 is what allows me to see the stars. So if 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:26.880 I get down at the bottom of a well or 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:28.800 the bottom of a tower, where I can look out 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:32.199 through the top, the dark environment that I have enclosed 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:36.680 myself in will somehow like create the conditions of night 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:39.600 where I can normally see the stars. Is it something 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:41.920 like that? It seems to be again, this is something 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:46.199 where it again this is this is not true, This 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:49.400 is not seemed to be exactly what happens when one 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:51.559 is standing in a pit looking up, standing in a 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:53.840 well et ce. So we can't we you know, we 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.200 can't break down the exact process of this because this 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:00.480 is not a reality. But yeah, this seems to be 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.120 what the basic argument seems to be like if you 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:07.840 can as closely as possible approximate nighttime during the day 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:11.280 for your local self and then look up at the sky, 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.400 maybe then you would see the stars. Except that doesn't 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:20.560 actually happen, right, But again, important knowledgeable individuals who are 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.240 writing about this and repeating its signal boosting it. If 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:25.559 you will, you have you know, ultimately have the likes 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.920 of say Roger Bacon mentioning it. Seemed to be familiar 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.880 with the concept, and multiple Islamic authors, according to Sosiali, 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:37.800 reference it, and that some of these points to specific 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:42.000 observation wells, not just in the generality of this being 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:46.800 a thing. So a few examples of this. Maraga Observatory, 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.439 founded in twelve fifty seven, was said to be in 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:52.400 observation well, but Salways thinks this may be a mistake 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:56.439 in reference not to the observatory but to caves beneath 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.880 the observatory. That quote do not, so far as is known, 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.080 form any vertical well. Another one he mentions is the 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:10.760 Jaja bay Marassa of Kishier, Anatolia, founded in twelve seventy two. 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:14.400 This was used as an observatory and was said to 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:18.559 have an observation well formed via a circular hole cut 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:22.679 in the roof of the dome of the Madrassa building, 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:27.320 and that this was for daytime star observation. Now, on 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.199 this count, Psiali writes that there is evidence of their 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.200 having been a well here. But first of all, it 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:37.760 was probably not dry, and this could mean that if 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:42.120 it was used for an astronomical aid, it was so 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.439 that one could look at the reflection of the sky 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.840 in the water. And there are references apparently to this practice. 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:50.600 Oh okay, so this connects to I think the way 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:54.439 that Plenty in particular phrased it as opposed to Aristotle, 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:58.280 because Plenty said that you could see the stars reflected 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:02.280 in a very deep well, And so I'd wonder there 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:06.240 that there might be different optical effects at play. If 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:08.480 you're not standing in the bottom of a well looking 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.079 up trying to see the stars in daytime, but looking 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.080 down at the water in a dark well to see 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.480 if it's quote unquote reflecting the nighttime stars even during 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.360 the daytime, right, Yeah, so I think there could It 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:23.679 seems to be the case where you're dealing with a 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:29.240 different reported phenomena becoming confused with each other, you know, like, 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.640 can you can you look up from from the bottom 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:36.960 of well and see the sky? Yes? Can you see stars? Well, yes, 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.400 potentially if it is nighttime, but then that can be 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:42.800 you know, crossed into something else. Likewise, you could have 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.960 a situation where where the reflection in the well, in 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:48.320 the well water could be used to see the stars 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:50.679 at night, but that doesn't mean you can see them 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:53.880 in the daytime. Now. A third example that Ssiali brings 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.560 up is the is Ten Bowl Observatory found it in 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:00.960 fifteen seventy nine, and it did have this particular site 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.679 apparently did have an observation well or tower, and there 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:08.720 is confirmation of this in both Turkish and European sources. However, 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:12.160 the observatory was demolished not long after its founding. So 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.800 Siali says it might never have been used, or just 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.280 there are no records of it being used. I saw 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:20.560 some different dates on this. Perhaps it might have been 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.560 founded in fifteen seventy seven, but it seems like it 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.719 was destroyed in something like fifteen eighty, just a very 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.480 short period later, and the destruction was possibly due to 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:33.959 religious opposition to astronomy. So Siali mentions that there's a 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:39.560 sixteen thirty mention of observers and students glimpsing the stars 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:41.640 in the daytime from the bottom of a very deep 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.120 well in Cuimbra, Portugal, and there are also accounts from 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.160 Spain apparently. And then we have an individual by the 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:53.320 name of Erhard Weigel, court mathematician to Duke Wilhelm the 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:56.520 fourth of Bavaria. He had a house built in sixteen 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.000 sixty seven in Jenna, and it was said to have 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.840 a quote slant tube built into the wall in order 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:07.320 to allow the daytime observation of the stars. You shared 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:11.280 with me a painting of all Erhard here. And this 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:16.040 guy is such a mood he's I don't even know 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.840 how to describe this he. I mean, he looks like 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:23.160 a very sensitive boy posing for a photo with his dog, 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.600 you know, like pointing to the dog, except it's just 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:29.480 like a big table of mathematical figures. Yeah. Yeah. My 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:31.720 first thought was like, here is a man who loves 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:36.200 his maths. If you look him up on Wikipedia, you'll 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:39.280 see this particular painting. There are other images of him 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:43.720 that are not that don't strike the same tone. But 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.160 I do really like this painting. It looks like he's 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.800 like doing his equations and he's going, who's a good 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:55.920 boy now? Sayali also mentions that the Paris Observatory he 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:59.920 found in sixteen sixty seven through sixteen seventy five feet 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.200 a vertical hole which, via the caves below, formed a 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.800 fifty five meter deep well. Quote It was said that Cassini, 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.720 shortly after the foundation of the observatory, considered the possibility 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.880 of its use for daytime observation of the stars, as 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.160 one of the brightest stars of the constellation Perseus, he said, 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:19.520 would come within the field of view of the well, 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:23.400 and approximately forty years now. This is interesting to keep 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:25.600 in mind talking about the field of view of the well, 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.840 because I think this can be telling and given some 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.720 of the analysis out there. Cassini apparently used the well 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:37.840 himself and had another well built. But around this time, 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:42.400 Sili says, astronomical advancements may have made venturing down into 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:47.080 a well just increasingly obsolete. However, Siali mentions that there 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.480 were rumors that a janitor at the observatory had a 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.680 side hustle of taking people down into the pit to 0:15:53.800 --> 0:16:00.920 glampst the stars. What is this the seventeenth century? Yeah, yeah, 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.320 well I'm not sure exactly when this, uh, when the janitors. 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.080 This may may have come later. Okay, yeah, but it 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:12.840 sounds very at groundpo doesn't huh. One more example that 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:17.560 Siali mentions is the Chrest Monster Observatory in Austria found 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.360 a seventeen forty eight that has a fifty nine meter 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.080 deep well said to have been used as an observation 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:27.840 well as well. Well. Given all of these examples and 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:31.040 anecdotes from history of people saying they could do this 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:35.120 or building facilities in which to do this, I'm starting 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.000 to have my doubts. I'm like, wait a minute, can 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:39.400 you actually I don't know, I mean, like, would all 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:44.320 these people be building starlight tubes and observation wells and 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:46.840 towers and stuff and talking about this all the time. 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.920 If there weren't something to this story I'm having, I'm 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:54.240 doubting myself. Yeah, I had the same experience with it, 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:58.400 And and Sialia is basically discussing the same thing. He's like, 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.680 it would just be strange if this idea persisted for 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:05.200 so long and people did all these things, if there 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.680 wasn't something to it, if there wasn't some factual basis 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:13.240 to the whole enterprise, because you know, dudes are incorporating 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:17.199 this into their house plans, you know, a buddy. He 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:19.080 does point out, Yeah, there was. There were. There were 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:23.800 certainly skeptics as well, including Alexander von Humboldt, who who 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.240 discussed on the show before old friend of the Show, 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.720 the subject of a really great biography by Andrea Wolfe 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:34.200 called The Invention of Nature I highly recommend. Very interesting. 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:38.119 I'd say Von Humboldt was very important for promoting a 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:43.520 kind of a total view of science that kind of 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.760 the connected all of the natural world together into a 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:52.879 vast system of interlocking causes and effects, and viewed nature 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:56.679 not just as discreet entities of here's this animal and 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:00.479 here's this plant, but as an ecology as a system 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:05.920 of interactions in which everything affected every other thing. Yeah, 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.000 and so he comes along and you know, he's evidently 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:10.400 he's read about this and he's familiar with the concept. 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.639 But then he's he says, well, I've okay, I spoke 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:18.520 with Chimney Sweeps, I spoke with Miners, I've spoke with 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:22.159 other people who had ventured down into into conditions just 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.480 like this. And apparently he sought those conditions out himself, 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.000 and he did not experience this. He was not able 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.280 to see the stars. No, when he spoke to had 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:34.480 direct experience of having seen the stars this way. And 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:36.760 he's just one of There are a few other historical 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:40.680 critics of the notion as well that Psiali mentions. But 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:42.840 but I think Alexander van Homboldt probably though this is 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.840 one of the more robust ones coming along where he's 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:49.520 just saying, yeah, nobody I spoke to has actually experienced this, 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:53.879 and and ultimately Psyali even though he's like, again he's thinking, 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.920 there's you know, people have been doing this and circulating 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:00.320 this idea. There's is there absolutely nothing to it? He 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:04.560 does stress that quote, although such wells were connected with observatories, 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.240 there is no evidence that such observatories were systematically made 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:12.000 and utilized by astronomer, So the whole practice could have 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:16.760 been largely theoretical, even a you know, an ultimate basis 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:20.680 for it could ultimately be more imagination than anything. But 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:23.240 he thinks that the whole enterprise might have been connected 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:28.159 more to focusing on particular areas of the sky. So again, 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.199 come think, think about like what this would mean to 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.520 stand at the bottom of a well and look up 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:39.240 through the circular aperture of the well and behold the sky, 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.960 behold the sky at night to see the stars. You 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:46.160 would it would in a sense, you know, it would 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.679 limit what you could see. It would take that just 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:54.120 overwhelming starscape and limit it to just a single circle 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.840 of observation. Yeah, maybe if you were trying to focus 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:02.119 on particular stars as they passed through during a night 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:04.760 or something. I don't know. And then likewise, I guess 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:06.600 if you had a similar setup and you were looking 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:08.959 at stars were flected in the water, you could and 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:12.040 it was very still water and the reflection was just right, 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:16.640 you could have something similar going on. But in terms 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.840 of yeah, basically, anybody who comes up against this idea 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.800 of it being somehow a way to see the stars 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:29.000 during the daylight. Every nobody agrees that this is possible. 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:31.560 For instance, this is This is brought up in the 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:35.560 book Bad Astronomy by phil Plate, for example, and he 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.280 also points out that Charles Dickens wrote of it as well, 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:42.320 and he says that he's never heard a decent explanation 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.920 as to why this would work well. One nice takedown 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:50.960 of the whole idea came from the Reverend William Frederick 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:55.480 Archdall Ellison in the Journal of the British Astronomical Association 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:59.960 in nineteen sixteen, writing quote, A very little scientific reason, 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.160 even without experiment, will be sufficient to dispose of it. 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.600 For what is it which hides the star in the daytime? 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.280 It is merely the glare of our atmosphere, illuminated by 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.600 the Sun's rays. As the atmosphere extends to a height 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.920 of fifty miles or more above the Earth's surface, a 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.119 shaft or chimney one hundred to two hundred feet high 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:23.320 could do but little to take away that glare. And 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:26.360 anyone who has ever actually looked up from the bottom 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.120 of such a shaft, as I have from the bottom 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:32.639 of a colliery. This is a British term by the 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:36.560 way a coal mine and the buildings and equipment associated 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.760 with it nine hundred feet below the surface must have 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:42.440 been struck not by the darkness of the little disc 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.919 of sky visible, but by its dazzling brilliance. And this 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:48.000 is something that people come back to. It's like, if 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:51.960 you actually seek out this experience of gazing up through 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:58.200 a shaft at the sky, at the daytime sky, it's 0:21:58.240 --> 0:21:59.840 the sky's not going to be dark, it's going to 0:21:59.880 --> 0:22:03.440 be super bright. It's going to be overwhelmingly bright. Now 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:05.919 I totally agree with that. That seems right to me. 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:10.439 I do have a counterposing idea. I wonder if you 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:13.240 were able to build a tower like some of these 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:17.320 supposed observation towers that extended up beyond the top of 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:22.880 the atmosphere, then that might actually work. Ooh, I did 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:26.440 not see anyone discussing this idea, This idea that through 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:30.119 some sort of futuristic megaproject we might be able to 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:34.679 make the daytime a well observatory possible. Yeah, like you 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:37.280 build a space elevator and it's just it's a tube 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:40.840 going up beyond the atmosphere. Even then, I'm not positive 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:43.840 that would work. I think it probably would. I guess 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:46.199 it might depend on where the sun is at the 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:49.399 moment relative to like is any of the sunlight shooting 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:53.239 down in there. So many commentators also speak to this 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:56.919 whole notion being predicated on a misunderstanding of what a 0:22:56.920 --> 0:23:00.600 telescope does, certainly in the later cases and later circulation 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:03.600 of the idea, and that you know, ultimately it's focusing 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:06.520 more on the tube rather than the lenses, which are 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:10.760 vital to the workings of a telescope, right, not understanding 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:13.240 that the purpose of the telescope is to gather light 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:16.000 from a from a wider surface and then project that 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:19.240 down into your eye to increase the resolution. One such 0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:22.679 commentator was Patricia O'Grady, who wrote on the subject in 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:25.840 two thousand and two in a paper title day Leaves 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:29.200 of my Leidas The Beginnings of Western philosophy and Science. 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:33.160 She contends that such wells were used at night as 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:35.520 a means of isolating portions of the night sky for 0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:39.840