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Speaker 1: Before we start, a quick warning that this episode contains

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Speaker 1: upsetting testimony of human rights violations. Please take care while listening.

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Speaker 2: Id thein ideenty five. It is a movie who is

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Speaker 2: shedding right on this issue in a way that you

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Speaker 2: can understand. It's not the legal thing, it's emotional clear.

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Speaker 2: That's why for me the movie is a great movie

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Speaker 2: but also producing a sacain. But that's amazing because distancing

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Speaker 2: time and distancing space reduce your moral ability.

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Speaker 3: From futuro media and VRX, It's Latino USA and Maria

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Speaker 3: Rosa Today, a conversation with the real Louis Moreno Ocampbo,

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Speaker 3: the deputy prosecutor featured in the Oscar nominated film Argentina

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 4: Fancy Lucia Gavilo Lebo, Lagoscio, Antonis Jocz.

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Speaker 3: Latino Usa, Alum Antonia Serejidro is back for an intimate

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Speaker 3: conversation with Luis Moreno Ocambo. He's the real deputy prosecutor

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Speaker 3: featured in the film Argentina nineteen eighty five. Here's Antonia

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Speaker 3: with the story.

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Speaker 5: Last week.

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Speaker 1: Argentina nineteen eighty five was one of the films that

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Speaker 1: was up for Best International Feature Film at the Oscars,

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Speaker 1: and while it didn't win, the movie has been sweeping

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Speaker 1: awards shows throughout the season, including Best and I don't

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Speaker 1: love the name of this prize Non English language Film

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Speaker 1: at the Golden.

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Speaker 6: Globes Chisi Maracia Maga I think.

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Speaker 1: The film stars beloved Argentine actor Ricardo Ladin and was

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Speaker 1: directed by Santiago Midre.

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Speaker 6: How the immense privilege TUJII film with the Dicardoerin, who

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Speaker 6: is one of the best hitters of the world, and

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Speaker 6: I love him, He's great.

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Speaker 1: But the film success is doing much more than just

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Speaker 1: giving us Argentinians or in my case, kids of Argentines,

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Speaker 1: another reason to celebrate. It's making people in different parts

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Speaker 1: of the world stop and think about the importance of democracy,

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Speaker 1: foremost how fragile it is.

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Speaker 6: I want to share these for our all, the people

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Speaker 6: who since the dictatorship, have been fighting to build a

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Speaker 6: better democracy in Argentina. On the keep on Fighting.

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Speaker 1: I recently sat down with Luis Moreno Ocampo, former Chief

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Speaker 1: prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, whose life story partly

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Speaker 1: inspired the film. We discussed the relevance of Argentina nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty five today and the role of movies in helping

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Speaker 1: to process painful and unspoken histories, which, in the case

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Speaker 1: of Moreno Ocampo but also myself, are deeply personal. My

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Speaker 1: father's family was forced to escape Argenti in nineteen seventy six,

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Speaker 1: at the height of a brutal military dictatorship led by

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Speaker 1: Jrgue Rafael Vivela. If you saw Argentina nineteen eighty five,

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Speaker 1: you'll remember him. He's the main defendant on trial. But

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Speaker 1: while this part of Argentina's history is so ingrained in

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Speaker 1: my family's history, it was mostly unknown to me for

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Speaker 1: a big part of my life. I was born and

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Speaker 1: grew up in the US, and for most of my

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Speaker 1: childhood and adolescence I didn't even know Viveda's name. He

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Speaker 1: was like Voldemort in my household, someone not to be

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Speaker 1: spoken of. But that all changed when I was twelve.

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Speaker 1: At the time, I was an annoying and precocious preteen,

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Speaker 1: obsessed with cinema and would often go to the public

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Speaker 1: library and take out movies. One day I came across

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Speaker 1: Lestia Official, The Official History, which was the first movie

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Speaker 1: to win Argentina an Academy Awards. Good bit one. That movie,

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Speaker 1: like Torio Official, came out in nineteen eighty five, a

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Speaker 1: couple of years after Vivela's dictatorship ended, and it's about

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Speaker 1: one of the more perverse aspects of that time period

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Speaker 1: in Argentina, the emergence of Lesa Presidos, or the Disappeared.

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Speaker 1: The military government was kidnapping and murdering citizens they suspected

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Speaker 1: of being communists or in any way against the military government.

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Speaker 1: Many of the disappeared had infant children, and in hundreds

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Speaker 1: of cases, those children were separated from their parents and

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Speaker 1: adopted into military families. The movie centers on a mother

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Speaker 1: who realizes that her adopted daughter was likely one of

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Speaker 1: those Childrensius. I remember watching this movie for the first time.

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Speaker 5: I was alone.

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Speaker 1: I cried hysterically, and I felt this deep sadness. But

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Speaker 1: amidst that sadness, I also felt something unexpected anger. I

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Speaker 1: remember asking myself, why didn't I know this history my

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Speaker 1: whole life? I was told my dad was in exile,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't really know what that meant. I felt

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Speaker 1: like I had been denied information that was key to

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Speaker 1: understanding who I was. Why didn't my parents ever tell

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Speaker 1: me about this? Nearly twenty years later, I know much

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Speaker 1: more about Argentina and my family's history. But I still

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Speaker 1: had a similar experience watching Argentina in nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 1: This time I wasn't angry, but rather I felt like

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Speaker 1: lines were being colored in, like I could understand a

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Speaker 1: part of my own history that had previously been inaccessible.

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Speaker 2: And do answer let a play, answered Saki Bohen.

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Speaker 1: While both Argentina nineteen eighty five and the Official History

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Speaker 1: are about the legacy of the military dictatorship, this year's

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Speaker 1: movie centers the story of two lawyers, Julio Strasea and

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Speaker 1: his assistant Luis Morino Ocampo, who were the prosecutors in

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Speaker 1: the trial against former dictator Vivela and several other military leaders. Straseda,

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Speaker 1: the head prosecutor, passed away in twenty fifteen. Luis Moreno

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Speaker 1: Ocampo would go on to become the first Chief Prosecutor

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Speaker 1: of the International Criminal Court in the Hague. In the film,

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Speaker 1: Morino Campo is portrayed by actor Peter Lanzani.

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Speaker 7: I could try to Conejo in Ndolaos doesn't presume Ambo.

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Speaker 5: When I found out.

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Speaker 1: Morin Ocampo is currently a visiting professor at the University

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Speaker 1: of Southern California and is based in Los Angeles, where

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Speaker 1: I live, I knew I needed to interview him. I

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Speaker 1: pitched the story about Argentina nineteen eighty five being an

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Speaker 1: important film to understand the fragility of democracy, which is true,

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Speaker 1: and we'll get into all of that. But in my

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Speaker 1: heart of hearts, this was an interview with the man

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Speaker 1: who put the dictator that made my family flee from

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Speaker 1: their home country behind bars. I wanted to know how

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Speaker 1: Morino Campo, who at almost seventy one years old forty

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Speaker 1: one years my senior, understood this period of time, and

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Speaker 1: I secretly hoped that talking to him would unlock something

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Speaker 1: deeper about my own family history.

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Speaker 2: From the microphone, that's good.

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Speaker 1: As long as you're speaking directly to it, it will

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Speaker 1: pick it up from like a really far angle. Even

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Speaker 1: I visited the former prosecutor at his home in Malibu. Okay, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so we're going to start at the beginning, Okay. I

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Speaker 1: was curious how Prosecutor Morino Ocampo experienced the years of

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Speaker 1: military rule.

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Speaker 2: My family have two different traditions. My mother family are

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Speaker 2: basically army guys. My grandfather was a general. On the

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Speaker 2: other side, my father's side is really different.

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Speaker 1: There were teachers for generations Morino Campo's maternal family fought

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Speaker 1: on the side of military coups, and his paternal family

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Speaker 1: were staunchly against them.

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Speaker 2: In ninety six, I was fourteen. I was drinking tea

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Speaker 2: in the health of my grandmother and my uncle were

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Speaker 2: explaining that they were involving a kubleta in nineteen sixty six,

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Speaker 2: and my father was saying, no, it's wrong. So there

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Speaker 2: was a big debate. And I love my ancles. There

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Speaker 2: were nice people, they were honest and they really believed

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Speaker 2: all its efficiency. But older, but I feel, okay, this

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Speaker 2: is crazy.

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Speaker 1: Marino Ocampo understood that his family was not going to

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Speaker 1: see ITAI on the issue of military coups in Argentina

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Speaker 1: during tea time around the table.

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Speaker 2: So I need to study law to organize his country.

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Speaker 2: So that day that was when you decided, Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: got fourteen. I said, okay, this is crazy. I need

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Speaker 2: to study law. Then, when in nineteen eighty three democracy

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Speaker 2: went back, the.

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Speaker 1: Lastic leadership to control Argentina, the one at the Center

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Speaker 1: of Argentina nineteen eighty five, began in nineteen seventy six

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Speaker 1: and lasted for six years.

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Speaker 5: It was during that period that I.

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Speaker 2: Was teaching and I was working as a clerk of

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Speaker 2: the Solicitor General office. But then the junk started the.

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Speaker 1: Trial, on which Videla, my families and I'm sure many

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Speaker 1: other families in Argentina's Baltimore and other military leaders would

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Speaker 1: be prosecuted. There was still a lot of trepidation about

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Speaker 1: whether Argentina's newly democratic institutions like the court system, would hold.

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Speaker 2: Up, and Jul prosecutor needed assistance, and there was a

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Speaker 2: problem because the normal people surrounding him were refusing to

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Speaker 2: do it because they were afraid or they were more

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Speaker 2: or less support in the media regime. It's called me.

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Speaker 2: I told him, it's my first case. I never the

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Speaker 2: case in my life.

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Speaker 1: And throughout all this, Marino Campo's family, on his mother's

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Speaker 1: side was still very close to military leaders. His mom

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Speaker 1: even went to Mass with General Videla.

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Speaker 2: When I was in mitigating the crimes. I was going

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Speaker 2: to launch in my mother's house and she say, no, no,

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Speaker 2: it's not possible. What you say, I don't know. I

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Speaker 2: was with Jernbydela in the church and he's like my father.

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Speaker 2: She cannot believe that I would write.

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Speaker 1: The military's argument was that their actions were political events

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Speaker 1: or contingencies of combat, that they were in a war

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Speaker 1: against an enemy who were made up of political dissidents, socialists,

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Speaker 1: or left wingers. Many were union leaders and university students.

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Speaker 1: But what Sasieda and Morino Gampo were trying to prove

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Speaker 1: in the case was that the military government committed state terrorism,

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Speaker 1: that they engaged in crimes in a covert way, kidnapping

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Speaker 1: people in the middle of the night, torturing them in

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Speaker 1: secret concentration camps, and dropping people out of planes so

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Speaker 1: they would fall towards their death and their bodies would

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Speaker 1: never be found. The victims were not held as political prisoners,

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Speaker 1: they were disappeared. There was no legal recourse for what

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Speaker 1: the government was doing, and all of this was hidden

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Speaker 1: from many Argentine citizens.

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Speaker 2: Piri suro.

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Speaker 1: The trial of the Juntas was going to be televised,

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Speaker 1: and so it was going to be the first time

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Speaker 1: many in the country learned of what happened during the

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Speaker 1: dictatorship from the victims themselves.

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Speaker 4: Digas com Ploto Yaegido.

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Speaker 8: Adriana Calbold.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps the most haunting testimony came from a physicist named

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Speaker 1: Adriana Calbo de la Borde, who was kidnapped by the

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Speaker 1: military when she was pregnant with her third child, so that.

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Speaker 8: Trent.

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Speaker 1: When she started having contractions, her prisoners put her in

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Speaker 1: a car. She thought they were taking her to a hospital.

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Speaker 8: Juvo Bevendala, but sodalos.

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Speaker 1: This is the actual testimony for Adriana at the trial

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Speaker 1: in April nineteen eighty five. She's saying that she was

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Speaker 1: lying down in a car with her eyes lindfolded and

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Speaker 1: her hands handcuffed behind her back.

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Speaker 5: Manicamp and.

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Speaker 1: She says the man who drove when his partner were laughing.

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Speaker 1: They told her they were going to kill her and

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Speaker 1: her baby anyways, so why did she care if she

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Speaker 1: made it to the hospital or not.

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Speaker 8: Jo Nicomo anc Tomas Efetia mine Nacio naciva.

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Speaker 1: Somehow she was able to take her underwr off to

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Speaker 1: give birth. The car was still moving forward quickly, and

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Speaker 1: she yelled, I'm giving birth, I'm giving birth. I can't

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Speaker 1: hold on anymore, and then her baby was born. The baby,

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Speaker 1: still hanging from Adrianna's umbilical cord, fell from the seat

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Speaker 1: onto the floor. The baby cried, and Adriana, with her

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Speaker 1: hands tied and her eyes blindfolded, begged the people in

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Speaker 1: the car to hand her baby over. They refused.

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Speaker 8: Maybe brava sacla.

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Speaker 2: Manos address.

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Speaker 8: Amela Ganda.

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Speaker 1: Adrianna's testimony was a turning point for many in Argentina,

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Speaker 1: including Moreno Campo's own mother.

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Speaker 2: After Adriana Caordi provide testimony for the judges, explaining how

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Speaker 2: she had she gave birth seated in a in a

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Speaker 2: police car, Han Cafette.

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Speaker 1: My mother.

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Speaker 2: The following they called me and say, I still love

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Speaker 2: General Videla, but you are right. You got to go

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Speaker 2: up to Jade.

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Speaker 1: Despite its importance, I only learned about Adriana's testimony this

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Speaker 1: year when I watched the film Argentina nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 1: It's a powerful yet alienating sensation to learn facts about

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Speaker 1: something so formative that you didn't actually experience, but yet

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Speaker 1: explain a lot of your situation and circumstance. That reality

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Speaker 1: that Adidiana and thousands of others lived is what my

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Speaker 1: family fled from. When I was a teen, I would

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Speaker 1: fantasize about what it would have been like to grow

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Speaker 1: up in Argentina. In San Diego, where I did grow up,

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Speaker 1: the distance between the houses often felt like a metaphor

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Speaker 1: for the distance between the people I would visit, winos

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Speaker 1: aires and the chalky white apartment buildings seemed to topple

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Speaker 1: into each other, like the teens on the street who

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Speaker 1: were not embarrassed to kiss other teens and adults on

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Speaker 1: the cheek. Taxi drivers would go off on everything from

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Speaker 1: the latest political scandal to the merits of transcendental meditation.

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Speaker 1: I was always amazed how they had a take on everything.

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Speaker 1: It made me feel at home at La Joya High.

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Speaker 1: I always felt loud, too opinionated. It was hard for

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Speaker 1: me to imagine that not too long ago, in Argentina,

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Speaker 1: the culture was dominated by secrecy. In nineteen seventy six,

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Speaker 1: when my father was fifteen, his mother told him he

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Speaker 1: needed to pack a suitcase and that they were going

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Speaker 1: to leave the country. My dad and his older sister,

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Speaker 1: my aunt Maririta, thought my grandma was being dramatic, making

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Speaker 1: too big a deal of the political situation. They didn't

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Speaker 1: want to leave their friends.

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Speaker 5: On the plane.

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Speaker 1: My grandma, who liked my grandpa had left leaning political views,

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Speaker 1: told them that she received death threats, a voice on

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Speaker 1: the phone saying they were coming to kill her, her husband,

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Speaker 1: and her children. My grandma took those threats seriously because

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Speaker 1: she saw what was happening in their social circles. People

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Speaker 1: she knew were now disappeared. A decade would pass before

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Speaker 1: my dad and most people in Argentina would understand the

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Speaker 1: full scope of what had happened during the dictatorship, and

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Speaker 1: that's thanks to events like the one that's depicted in

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Speaker 1: Argentina nineteen eighty five, the trial of the Juntas.

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Speaker 2: Senor requeesis.

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Speaker 7: Unia Argentina particular perotabile la consciencia urica universal mean and

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Speaker 7: commandalo la ulta mission the present lmento telles clamarcuticia.

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Speaker 1: When we return, I continue my conversation with prosecutor Luis

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Speaker 1: Moreno Ocampo and ask why it's important to remember this

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Speaker 1: part of history.

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Speaker 3: Now, welcome back to Latino USA. I'm Maria Josa. Here's

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Speaker 3: Antonia serejuido once again with the rest of the conversation

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Speaker 3: with Argentine lawyer Luis Moreno Ocampo.

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Speaker 1: Before we dive back in, here's a clip of Ricardo

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Speaker 1: larn As Julio Strassera during his closing argument describing how

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Speaker 1: the actions of the military government were taken without the

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Speaker 1: consent of Argentine citizens. He describes those acts with three

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Speaker 1: words fearce, clandestine and cowardly.

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Speaker 7: Imperented advice, juando trece de los o mas and nombre

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Speaker 7: lass armadas to mark equal full reporta logolpe aria supercivai,

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Speaker 7: Carlo senor quess meat, trips feros clandetina Ecovarde.

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Speaker 5: This film, I think is also meant to make a

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Speaker 5: statement at a certain time. Why do you think this

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Speaker 5: movie matters right now?

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Speaker 2: Well, movies always matter because movies define the memory. Movies

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Speaker 2: defined the memory, so you had to win the case

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Speaker 2: in court the memory, he said, bit the miss professor

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Speaker 2: he had usc he was a refuge at four he

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Speaker 2: won't a fuller price, And he said, you fight your

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Speaker 2: wars twice, first in the battlefield, then in the memory.

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Speaker 5: Did you have awareness of that when you were working

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Speaker 5: on the trial.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I remember before when I was doing the mitigation,

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Speaker 2: I read something that opened my eyes. The story was

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Speaker 2: about the disagreement between US and DCOM. Was in Paris,

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Speaker 2: and one day apparently the American general pulled a bottom

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Speaker 2: of the elevator. The stop opened the door, and inside

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Speaker 2: alone was a small Bacom general. So suddenly the two

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Speaker 2: enemies were together in a close place, so the American

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Speaker 2: general could not stop himself and say, okay, we're making peace.

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Speaker 2: But you had to recognize that you never never could

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Speaker 2: defeat us in the battlefield, and a general say, look,

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Speaker 2: if you want, I can't recognize that, but then you

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Speaker 2: should recognize that that is irrelevant. Who won in the

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Speaker 2: battlefield is relevant because we're making peace here. That's the point.

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Speaker 2: So I found that no, and the and is not

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Speaker 2: in the movie. The idea to do a case against

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Speaker 2: the generals was like that the alsen seen as a candidate.

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Speaker 1: Marino Campo is referring to Raoul Alfonsine, who would go

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Speaker 1: on to become the first democratically elected president of Argentina

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Speaker 1: after the last dictatorship period.

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Speaker 2: He proposed to to investigate the crimes, and the candidate,

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Speaker 2: the Parents' Party would was the biggest party, say we

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Speaker 2: cannot do it because it's an amnesty adopted by the armies.

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Speaker 2: We cannot investigate the pass and saying no, it's a

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Speaker 2: self amnesty, it's new, and I think one people both

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Speaker 2: for him. So that way, I d case is very

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Speaker 2: unique because it's not just the case. The case was

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Speaker 2: a piece of a political process proposed by a leader

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Speaker 2: and supported by the maturity of the community. That's why

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Speaker 2: the Truth Commission report was very important, and that's why

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Speaker 2: the trial was so important. And all this happened two

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Speaker 2: years after the end of the jettoship. That was amazing

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Speaker 2: because for that in Germany you had cases that happened

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Speaker 2: eighteen years after the neu metrans were done by the

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Speaker 2: international judges and prosecutor, so supported by the American, Russian, French, British,

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Speaker 2: not the Germans. The German did nothing, nothing until fifty

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Speaker 2: two six three, so because they were afraid to create conflict.

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Speaker 2: They were afraid of that. So Spain in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 2: five Franco left power and led a new democracy coming,

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Speaker 2: but there was an agreement that Franco could not be mitigated.

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Speaker 2: So the stain and transition to democracy was the model.

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Speaker 2: Avantsin was against the model and everyone was telling him,

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Speaker 2: you're wrong, Basy, But that's why the film showed the case.

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Speaker 2: But the case is just a piece of the more

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Speaker 2: complex social political activities.

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Speaker 5: Before you worked on the trial, did you have like

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Speaker 5: any faith in democracy?

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Speaker 2: Right, yes, I believe in law, I believe it.

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Speaker 5: But did you think it would like sustain.

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Speaker 2: I don't since say, we had to do the trial

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Speaker 2: to end fifty years of impunity and Kubida and she

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Speaker 2: was right. I believe in that, So I believe. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I believe we should do that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, one thing is we should do that. But do

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Speaker 5: you think it would work?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Wait, you working? Now?

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Speaker 5: Well that's what I so like. I mean, now, it's funny.

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Speaker 1: I worked at at this company that you know, USA,

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Speaker 1: and the day after Trump was elected, there's a Chile Naw,

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Speaker 1: there's me. Chile was also under control of a repressive

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Speaker 1: military dictatorship under Auto Pinochet from nineteen seventy four to

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. One of our coworkers, who was who's from

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Speaker 1: the US, was like, the two of you are having

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Speaker 1: a different experience because I think it was like we

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Speaker 1: come from families that were very much impacted by having

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Speaker 1: leaders like Trump, and it does feel like there's been

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Speaker 1: like a shift. There's so many decades of democracy and

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Speaker 1: now it seems like there's something weird happening, and I'm

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Speaker 1: just curious what your thoughts are about that.

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Speaker 2: We definitely what what is happening is that the world

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Speaker 2: is changing in dramatically Internet it's a revolution, and we

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Speaker 2: lawyers are not adjusting. We are not learning how to

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Speaker 2: use new technologies to help people. On the contrary, we

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Speaker 2: are using technology to attack people. Yes, the more on

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Speaker 2: the contrary because for me, what I learned in my job,

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Speaker 2: I learned something very basic. How do you treat violent people.

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Speaker 2: You can treat them as criminals, but they have rights

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Speaker 2: and you have to respect the rights. Or you can

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Speaker 2: do them as enemies that could be killed. Argentina in

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Speaker 2: nineteen sirventy six consider this fight. It's a cold war

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Speaker 2: fight against communism, but to kill the enemies. I remember

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Speaker 2: the journal it played to me. They did what they

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Speaker 2: did to support freedom and democrat See as a general,

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Speaker 2: you cannot tell me that you torture and kill to

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Speaker 2: protect freedom and democracy. And he say, prosecutor, those are

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Speaker 2: our values. They are the enemy. So Argentina and nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy six was treating violent people as enemies to kill.

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Speaker 2: So the army considered as Indian citizens as enemies, abducted them,

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Speaker 2: tortured them and execute them. In nineteen eighty five or

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Speaker 2: different will expect the rights of the commanders. They had

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Speaker 2: the rights and had to put the evidence and some

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Speaker 2: of them were acquitted, so they have rights. They were

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Speaker 2: not considered enemies. They were treated as suspects and convicted,

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Speaker 2: and that is the basic distincsion I see in the

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Speaker 2: international scenarios. We are still very primitive. They were still

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Speaker 2: very primitive, and we're still using wars to manage conflict.

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Speaker 2: So because in the war you can kill the enemy.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I feel this is teaching between how

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Speaker 2: to manage violence as criminals or enemies is a key

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Speaker 2: issue and one of the reasons I like to be

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Speaker 2: in the cinematic art school and also now involved with this.

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Speaker 2: From discussion on the movie for the Oscar, I was

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Speaker 2: trying to understand this industry is because ending wars is

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Speaker 2: needed if you won't survive. But it's not a legal aspect,

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Speaker 2: it's a political aspect because starting a war is popular.

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Speaker 2: People support starting wars. In the US, Wols became popular.

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Speaker 2: Even today, Iraq war is still valid. The Congress is

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Speaker 2: not able to stop the authorization to use war in

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Speaker 2: Iraq even was adopted on the false premises. Obama does

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Speaker 2: not stop the wars. Putin is more popular today than

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Speaker 2: before in Russia. So war is a very old mechanism

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Speaker 2: but is popular because people feel protected and people don't

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Speaker 2: care about killing outside my people. That's the point, and

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Speaker 2: that's why we need movies, not just lawyers or trials.

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Speaker 1: People are saying that the country has never been more

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Speaker 1: divided politically, and people don't know how to talk to

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Speaker 1: each other. And it's interesting to me that even from

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Speaker 1: the get go, you're like the side of my family

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Speaker 1: I an agree with, I love them. You've had this

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Speaker 1: battle on international human rights courts at the dinner table.

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Speaker 1: How do you think people should talk to their family

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Speaker 1: members that don't see ida eye with them?

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Speaker 2: Well, one of the things I like in the The

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Speaker 2: Ideentified movie is that Miteri presented very well the conflict

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Speaker 2: using families. His show a family supporting the legal change,

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Speaker 2: but a thread that would be a trap, and we'll

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Speaker 2: go back my family presented in the Army families, families

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Speaker 2: who believed they were fighting communists and while they're now

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Speaker 2: they're attacking us, and the victim family is suffering. Now

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Speaker 2: this woman having a baby in a car contact and

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Speaker 2: a young kid who was in high school students and

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Speaker 2: his friend disappeared. So all this information about her family,

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Speaker 2: So the family is a great way to present the problem,

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Speaker 2: and I was thinking, Okay, in the US, you got

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Speaker 2: a trial on January.

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Speaker 9: Sixth, substantial evidence showing that the president's December nineteenth tweet

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Speaker 9: calling his followers to Washington, d C. On January sixth

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Speaker 9: energized individuals from the Proud Boys and other extremist groups.

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Speaker 2: The Old six leaders were convicted, and it's interesting because

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Speaker 2: the lawyer of them say they jiu was very fair.

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Speaker 2: So it's great first trial, but it's not discussion on

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Speaker 2: what happened these people, Why these people mobilize themselves to

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Speaker 2: do what they did. We're not understanding what's happened here,

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Speaker 2: so and that why for me, it's not just about

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Speaker 2: who was breaking glasses or windows in the Congress. It's

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Speaker 2: about what happened with these people? Why are they acting

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Speaker 2: the way they're acting? And I think that is something

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Speaker 2: the movie in a Canadin explore and we need to

436
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: keep exploring in the US. In Brazil it's the same.

437
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: I'm shocked how similar is generally eight in Brazil with

438
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: January six the in Washington it's identical. And then idea

439
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: they five. It's a movie who is shedding light on

440
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 2: this issue in a way that you can understand. It's

441
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: not the legal thing, it's emotional clear. That's the why

442
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 2: for me, the movie is a great movie but also

443
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 2: producing a social impact. It's amazing because distance in time

444
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: and distance in space reduce your moral ability. Now, if

445
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: someone is killed ten years ago, okay, someone is killed

446
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: in Singapore, Okay, if I'm gonna someone kill the corner

447
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: of houses different And this movie helped us to cross

448
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: time because my youngest kid now learn about what happened

449
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: to the movie. For me, one of the most interesting

450
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 2: things happening is all the high school stud and then

451
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: I watching the movie. Now that's amazing. The new generation

452
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: learn what happened, and it's important because for them, democrats

453
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: was normal. Now learning it's normal that it does to

454
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 2: fight for it and keep improving.

455
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 7: Seniors, he express some pretension the originally that but as

456
00:30:54,840 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 7: a relitor, a pretendency for Tensa a total Pueblo Orgentino.

457
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 2: Senor oasis non comas. As a movie is crossing borders

458
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 2: because democracy is under fire everywhere. So the movie became

459
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 2: important in Brazil, in Spain, in the US. The movie

460
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 2: is crossing borders, are reaching many people.

461
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: Has there been any particular moment in the impact that

462
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: stood out to you one screening that you remember so far.

463
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: Well, the first cleaning was more important because I was

464
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 2: alone in the big cinema.

465
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 5: Did you cry?

466
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: No, No, I don't cry.

467
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 5: No, you're giving me the impression that you don't cry

468
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 5: a lot.

469
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: Well, I never cry during the investigation, the junta never.

470
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: But when I was I went two weeks break before

471
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: the trial started. He started, and in those days I

472
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: went to see official story.

473
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: He's referring to the movie that was the first Argentine

474
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: film to win an Academy Award, that one that I

475
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: watched when I was twelve.

476
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: So the movie was nothing, nothing brutal, nothing comparable that

477
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: I knew, and I was crying on the movie when

478
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: I took about this issues. Did my job protect my

479
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: emotions when I was watching the movie? That movie with

480
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: no correction with me was more impacting. I liked to learn.

481
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 2: So I use I was involved in awful things in

482
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 2: mitigations of Gene sign that fool afy killings, that what

483
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 2: happened to Gan? That was Joseph Corney. So I was

484
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 2: involved in many, many conflicts in the world. But I

485
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: tried to learn why is happening. No, it's similarly like

486
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: my I liked to under some my deue bantl Booby. Yes,

487
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: I liked on to learn.

488
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: It's very interesting to me that love was more than

489
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: just a career for Morino Campo. It was a way

490
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: that he could process his family's history. Watching movies like

491
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: Lectoria Officiad and Argentina nineteen eighty five have helped me

492
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: process my family history. My dad always said that he

493
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: was in exile, and I understood that my grandparents lived

494
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: in Mexico City because they had to leave Argentina. But

495
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: I didn't actually know what happened until I saw Dictorioficiad

496
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: when I was like twelve on my own volition.

497
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 5: I like took it out from the library because I

498
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 5: was curious, and I was so mad at my dad.

499
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: I was like, why didn't you tell me any of this?

500
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: And he was like, because you don't have to carry

501
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: that like that was the worst experience of my life.

502
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: And it's a difficult dialogue. No, for probably that's what

503
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 2: happened to you happened many family It's different for them

504
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 2: to talking about what's happened to them. It's very painful, very.

505
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: Painful Honestly, between this film and in Mumbia, I've like

506
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: never been prouder to be Argentinian.

507
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 5: I'm like really feeling that it's our year.

508
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 2: Yes, it's funny Argentina. Okay, we got messy, but the

509
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 2: team was a team.

510
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 1: Yeah.

511
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 2: Normally I'm not good in teams. We have messys, but

512
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 2: no teams. This time we have a team supporting messy

513
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: as different.

514
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 5: That's true.

515
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: In last week's Oscars, Argentina was defeated sort of ironically

516
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 1: by its arch rival on the soccer field, Germany, which

517
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: competed with an epic film set during World War One.

518
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: All quiet on the Western Front. But I'm left feeling

519
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 1: hopeful because it took many years of losing to the

520
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: German team before we won the World Cup again. So

521
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: I'm expecting another Oscars matchup between the two countries sometime soon.

522
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for joining me.

523
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: No, thank you for inviting me to conversation.

524
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 1: As I left at the door, Moreno Campo told me

525
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: to not be too hard on my dad and to

526
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: send his regards to my parents. It's clearer now that

527
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: it was an act of love for my dad to

528
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: not tell me about this upsetting history. And it is

529
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: my active love for him to continue to seek it out.

530
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 3: This episode was produced by Antoniejiro. It was edited by

531
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 3: Andrea Lopez Cruzado. It was mixed by Stephanie Lebau and

532
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 3: Julia Caruso. The Latino USA team includes Daisy Contreras, Mike Sargent,

533
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 3: Marta Martinez, Victoria Estrada, Brenardo Leos Junior, and Patrice Sulbera,

534
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 3: with help from Raoul Berez. Our editorial director is Fernanda Santos.

535
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 3: Our associate engineers are Gabriel Lebiaz and Jjkrubin. Our marketing

536
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 3: manager is Reis Luna. Our New York Women's Foundation fellow

537
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 3: is Elizabeth Loento Torres. Our theme music was composed by

538
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 3: Zanguel Luinos. I'm your host and executive producer Marino Hosa.

539
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 3: Join us again on our next episode and in the meantime,

540
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 3: look for us on social media and remember no te

541
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 3: vayes unca coe.

542
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 6: Latino USA is made possible in part by the Ford Foundation,

543
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 6: working with visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide,

544
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 6: The Heising Simons Foundation Unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities.

545
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: More at hsfoundation dot org and the John D. And

546
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 2: Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation,