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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh

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Speaker 1: and there's Chuck. It's the one o'clock hour. I just

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Speaker 1: had a nice Caesar salad, so that means it's time

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Speaker 1: for stuff you should do. How do do you dress

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Speaker 1: your lightly or do you like it? I do it smartly.

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Speaker 1: I start out light and then add is needed. Okay,

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Speaker 1: because you know I've I've experienced the regret of too

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Speaker 1: much salad dressing. Right, you can't take it away. No,

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Speaker 1: you can't undring that bell, you cannot. Yeah. Uh, Rolling

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Speaker 1: Stone Magazine, what's your history with this rag? It's um

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Speaker 1: a couple it goes back a couple of days at least. Oh,

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Speaker 1: you were never into the magazine at all. No, I

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Speaker 1: mean I've read plenty of like Rolling Stone articles over

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Speaker 1: the years, like Matt tub stuff, um, some Hunter Thompson stuff,

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Speaker 1: and of course, you know, every once in a while,

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Speaker 1: I'll just run across a really good article from like

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Speaker 1: years back. Right, but that was it. Never had a subscription,

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Speaker 1: never bought it at the magazine rack or anything like that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, I just wasn't into it. I didn't hate

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Speaker 1: on it or anything like that. It just was never

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Speaker 1: into it, not like you're going to today. I won't

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Speaker 1: hate on it today. I'll just reveal facts. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: my history, if you care, is, uh, I always loved

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Speaker 1: Rolling Stone Magazine and I continue to digitally subscribe, and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know it is, as we will learn, it is

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Speaker 1: not a magazine without its downs and controversies. Um. And

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Speaker 1: you know it's as Ed even points out in this research,

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Speaker 1: like it's sort of been sport over the last two

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Speaker 1: decades to sort of debate when then if Rolling Stone

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Speaker 1: has lost its way. Uh, but it's a magazine that

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Speaker 1: I always Um, I just took what I took from it,

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Speaker 1: like when I was reading you know, at the end

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Speaker 1: of this we'll get to some of their biggest controversial

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Speaker 1: articles and like very poor shoddy journalism, Like I never

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Speaker 1: read any of those. So I've always just sort of

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Speaker 1: taken from it what I wanted to and uh, not

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Speaker 1: really thought about it a lot until this research. Man,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing more rock and roll than that. But I

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Speaker 1: do want to plug another magazine. What Cream Magazine is back?

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Speaker 1: Oh really? Yeah, I've seen people be you know, the

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Speaker 1: ones in the know, Like Cream was always better than

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Speaker 1: well it was, and uh, like my magazine of choice

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Speaker 1: for music since the probably early two thousand's was Magnets,

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Speaker 1: which I still oh yeah, you know, it went away,

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Speaker 1: then it came back and then but Cream is back now,

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Speaker 1: and you I think you get I subscribed immediately. You

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Speaker 1: get four paper copies per year like a quarterly issue,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of cool. But what's really cool, dude,

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Speaker 1: is if you subscribe, you get access to all of

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Speaker 1: the archives. So it's really fun to go back and

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Speaker 1: read like a contemporaneous Lester Bangs or Cameron Crow piece

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Speaker 1: uh from Cream magazine. So I highly recommend here at

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Speaker 1: the beginning of our Rolling Stone article to subscribe to

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Speaker 1: the new Cream. So yeah, Cream. The impression I have

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Speaker 1: is Cream is the one that like really was true

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Speaker 1: to what it was going for pretty much from start

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Speaker 1: to finish, while Rolling Stone was viewed as more like

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Speaker 1: the corporate version of that almost from the outset. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The reason that it was viewed as that and still

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Speaker 1: is today is because the guy one of the founders,

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Speaker 1: Yawn Winner, was super corporate, like that was his goal.

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Speaker 1: He was in ambitious, um hippie hanger on basically who

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Speaker 1: happened to be in San Francisco when the Summer of

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Speaker 1: Love happened, when psychedelic rock broke out, when like the

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Speaker 1: sixties like really we're like happening in San Francisco was

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Speaker 1: the epicenter. And that's not to say he like didn't

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Speaker 1: dig it and wasn't moved by it, But he also

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Speaker 1: saw that this was a really important thing, at least

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Speaker 1: to him and a lot of other people, and he

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Speaker 1: saw that he could probably sell ads against this, so

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Speaker 1: he did what he knew how to do when he

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Speaker 1: started a magazine, as we'll see. Yeah, that's a nice

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Speaker 1: little intro. And for those of you who don't know,

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Speaker 1: Rolling Stone is the music largely music magazine, but also

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Speaker 1: over the ensuing years is since November nine seven, has

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Speaker 1: branched out into all manner of pop culture and politics,

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, we we didn't want to not

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Speaker 1: mention what it was in case you happened to live

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Speaker 1: under a Rolling Stone. Oh man, is that written down

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Speaker 1: in your notes? No? I just yeah, WHOA. So should

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Speaker 1: we go back in time a bit? Yeah, So let's

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Speaker 1: getting the way back machine and go back to the

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Speaker 1: sixties in San Francisco and it's dusty in here, Um,

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Speaker 1: a contact buzz from some grass that's being smiled. They

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Speaker 1: called it grass back then. Uh so yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: Ed is very astute to point out that the origins

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Speaker 1: of Rolling Stone is kind of born out of this

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Speaker 1: sort of um certainly nineteen sixties, but maybe even before,

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Speaker 1: um left wing all rags that are self published, these

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Speaker 1: sort of poorly printed black and white magazines about the

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Speaker 1: counterculture that never really desired to make money. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: you know, most of them were super regional and never

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Speaker 1: like went outside of, um, usually the city that they

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Speaker 1: were in as far as distribution. But Rolling Stone was

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Speaker 1: kind of born out of this idea and in particular

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Speaker 1: got a lot of its influence from a San Francisco

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Speaker 1: based magazine called Ramparts. Yeah, which was like far far left,

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Speaker 1: radical left politics magazine. Um, there was a headline and

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Speaker 1: I think nineteen sixty eight, maybe even earlier than that

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Speaker 1: that Ramparts ran it was Ramparts offers ten thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: for information leading to the arresting conviction of any cop

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Speaker 1: who was murdered a black man. That was on their cover.

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Speaker 1: But it was on their cover and there's like a

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Speaker 1: cop pointing a gun at you. The viewer from the

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Speaker 1: magazine's cover. And that's you know, okay, it's you know, shocking,

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Speaker 1: especially for for even back then. But it's even more

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Speaker 1: shocking when you realize that just a few years before

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Speaker 1: Ramparts have been lost launched as an intellectual catholic quarterly. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't even know why they kept the

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Speaker 1: same name. It was a complete redo, it really was.

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Speaker 1: And the guy who redid it was a guy mean,

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Speaker 1: Warren Hinkel And you can't talk about Rolling Stone without

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Speaker 1: talking about Warren Hinkele. That's right. He transfermed that magazine

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Speaker 1: into that, you know, that leftist rag that they knew,

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Speaker 1: and it was you know, obviously big in San Francisco,

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Speaker 1: but it reached national levels of fame, if not like

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Speaker 1: widespread fame, like the writers were like featured on talk

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Speaker 1: shows and um other kind of notably, I guess when

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Speaker 1: you're a magazine being written by other magazine being written

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Speaker 1: about by other magazines, you've definitely made your mark. And

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Speaker 1: Time magazine even had a very famous article called a

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Speaker 1: bomb in every issue. I think it was a cover

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Speaker 1: article on Rampart's magazine. Uh. And though it would exist

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Speaker 1: alongside Rolling Stone for a little while, in the seventies.

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Speaker 1: It was not a big, widespread financial success, and obviously

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Speaker 1: because his politics had a pretty um just by nature

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Speaker 1: of of what it was a sort of limited audience.

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Speaker 1: And so Yan Winner, who was one of the founders

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Speaker 1: of Rolling Stone, who basically personified Rolling Stone over the

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Speaker 1: decades because he was the CEO for years and years

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Speaker 1: and years. He was involved in ramparts Um through a

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Speaker 1: guy named Ralph Gleason, who will meet in a second.

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Speaker 1: But the upshot of this is that jan Winner saw

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Speaker 1: ramparts what it was doing, how important it was, and

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Speaker 1: that it never really took off. That I saw it

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Speaker 1: blew through at least two personal fortunes Rampart magazine did

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Speaker 1: before it declared bankruptcy. And he noted that and he

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Speaker 1: he kind of took it to heart for his magazine,

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Speaker 1: Rolling Stone, And the lesson for him was reflect the

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Speaker 1: counter culture without actually like furthering the agenda, and you

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Speaker 1: can probably be absorbed by much more people and be

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Speaker 1: palatable to advertisers too. Yeah, And as far as Winner goes,

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Speaker 1: he himself was a college dropout from Berkeley Um. He

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Speaker 1: is sort of the personification of what we now think

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Speaker 1: of as like the Boomer generation, which is to say

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Speaker 1: that he uh and and probably still does. You know,

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Speaker 1: Um just sort of laud that generation and everything they

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Speaker 1: did as the utmost importance, and the music of the

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Speaker 1: time and the movements of the time were truly historic

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Speaker 1: and not to be um trifled with. And also in

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Speaker 1: a sort of boomer esquay um said, but you know

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Speaker 1: what's great as making tons of money, right, being a

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Speaker 1: capitalist and loving coke? Sure, yeah, I'm sure that was not. Uh,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure they were not. In short supply, he was

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Speaker 1: very famous for his ability to put put away bags

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Speaker 1: of cocaine. All right, So you mentioned Ralph Gleeson who

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Speaker 1: were going to meet. He was a jazz critic of

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Speaker 1: music critic who also dabbled in the rock and roll world.

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Speaker 1: But he was not a boomer. He was born in

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Speaker 1: I think nineteen seventeen, so he was thirty ish years

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Speaker 1: older than Venner and they met at a Jefferson Airplane

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Speaker 1: concert and became buddies, and I think, uh, John Winner

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Speaker 1: really looked up to him, and they sort of developed

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Speaker 1: a mentor relationship mentor mint mentee is that what it is?

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Speaker 1: It depends. So if if Gleason was strictly kind of

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Speaker 1: advising and training and teaching um Yahn Winner, that would

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Speaker 1: make him a mentee. But if he did anything to

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Speaker 1: further Jon Winner's career, which he ended up doing, that

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Speaker 1: would make Winner his protege. Okay, well, let's just say

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Speaker 1: it was a mix of both. Sure, I just I

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Speaker 1: looked it up and I really wanted to share that

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Speaker 1: I got you there's a distinction. But they were friends,

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Speaker 1: and I believe it was Gleason that also worked for Ramparts.

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Speaker 1: Uh some and then when Ramparts fell apart, Uh, they

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Speaker 1: hatched the idea for Rolling Stone magazine. Well it so

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Speaker 1: Gleason left even before Ramparts fell apart because as Warren

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Speaker 1: Hinkel did not love the psychedelic rock era, did not

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Speaker 1: love hippies um, and Ralph Gleeson did even though it

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Speaker 1: was a jazz critic. He definitely got the psychedelic movement

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Speaker 1: and was very um appreciative of it and wrote very

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Speaker 1: kindly about it in his columns in Ramparts. Um, but

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Speaker 1: they're falling out happened when Warren Hinkel ran The Social

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Speaker 1: History of the Hippies, which was a pretty unflattering cover

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Speaker 1: story about hippies and the Summer of Love and how

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Speaker 1: basically he accused them of of falling down on the

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Speaker 1: job of taking over the responsibility to steer the country

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Speaker 1: and instead they were just off like dropping acid enshirking

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Speaker 1: the responsibility, which would pan out to be really prescient

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about the baby boomer boomer generation, right,

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Speaker 1: And um, Ralph Gleason didn't appreciate that at all, so

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Speaker 1: he left in disgust. He quit Ramparts. And that was

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Speaker 1: about the time when Winner was like, hey, let's make

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Speaker 1: a magazine together, Summer of Love. Who can forget know?

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, no, it's seventy two. Yeah, because John Volta

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Speaker 1: played the woodstock for that Summer of Love concert and

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Speaker 1: seventy two. Oh boy, always feel bad for people who

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Speaker 1: don't pick up on the inside jokes. We'll get some emails.

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Speaker 1: That's all right, it's fun. Uh So they again hatch

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Speaker 1: this idea together and they really, um kind of borrowed

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Speaker 1: a lot from Ramparts, um, not the least of which

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Speaker 1: was their logo. Um. If you look at the Ramparts logo,

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Speaker 1: it's I don't know if it's exactly the same font.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there's They probably technically might have made a

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Speaker 1: new font, but it looks a lot like that font

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Speaker 1: and not the original Rolling Stone magazine font because the

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Speaker 1: earliest issues it was definitely a little bit different. But

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Speaker 1: the one that we all know today is the Rolling

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Speaker 1: Stone font looks a lot like ramparts. Uh. They definitely

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Speaker 1: hired away a lot of people from that magazine, including, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, some of the designers, some of the writers,

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Speaker 1: some of the some of the editors, photographers, and even

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Speaker 1: the office space. They raised, Um, they wanted to raise

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Speaker 1: ten grand, but they ended up raising sears from a

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Speaker 1: variety of investors, including uh Jane Winner uh in her family,

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Speaker 1: who was Joan Winner's wife, who actually had a much

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Speaker 1: larger role in the early days of the magazine than

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Speaker 1: I believe she's usually given credit for. Yeah, I saw

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Speaker 1: it described in I think it was an Atlantic article.

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Speaker 1: Is that where where it was? Um, Yeah, that was

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Speaker 1: a great article, it really was. I think it was

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Speaker 1: called the Rise and Fall of Rolling Stone or something

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Speaker 1: like that. Um. And uh Jane Schindelheim Winner is described

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Speaker 1: as basically being the She's she was so cool that

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Speaker 1: her her personality was what attracted those you know, cool

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Speaker 1: photographers and cool musicians and just people to the magazine

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Speaker 1: that they wanted to be close to her basically or

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Speaker 1: she knew how to behave around them basically A yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they had a um interesting marriage. He came out

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Speaker 1: of the closet in the mid nineties, much to her, well,

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Speaker 1: I say much to her surprise. Apparently she had heard

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Speaker 1: rumors over the years and things like that. But I

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Speaker 1: think it was sort of a sudden thing for her

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Speaker 1: and did not go down well. And I believe he's

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Speaker 1: been in a partnership with the same gentleman since then. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was this. It was a sudden surprise for John

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Speaker 1: Winner two because I read that he was outed by

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Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal without his permission or even interesting

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Speaker 1: even a heads up, just outed him in the pages

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Speaker 1: of the Wall Street Journal. The author even pondered, like, wow,

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Speaker 1: is this is this scandal going to be the thing

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Speaker 1: that sinks Rolling Stone? But it was by then or

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Speaker 1: ninety four, and everybody's like, cares you know, it's I

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Speaker 1: don't think that qualifies as a scandal. Yeah, absolutely, Um,

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Speaker 1: so they have this money they got the uh at

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Speaker 1: his points out that John Winner kept his Porsche though

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Speaker 1: it's not like he his force to raise money for

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Speaker 1: the for the magazine. Uh. So they got the money

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Speaker 1: together and they hire a bunch of the Ramparts people.

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Speaker 1: They in fact used um a lot of the same equipment.

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Speaker 1: The magazine was the same size, had a bit of

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Speaker 1: the same look. They had a bunch of unused paper,

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Speaker 1: uh from Ramparts that they were able to use. And

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Speaker 1: they even used the offices where they printed it. I

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Speaker 1: think the loft above the office was where they first

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Speaker 1: made their homes. So they really had a bit of

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Speaker 1: a head start. Yeah, and so it Ramparts had spun

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Speaker 1: off something called the Sunday Ramparts newspaper and that's what

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Speaker 1: had gone to funk. So Ramparts of the magazine is

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Speaker 1: still going at this time, but they used all the

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Speaker 1: Sunday Ramparts newspaper stuff, including staff, right, so they have

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Speaker 1: well when it worked for them, Yeah, and and when

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Speaker 1: Glease and quit in protest, and I think shortly after

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Speaker 1: that the Sunday Ramparts newspaper folded. That's when they got

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Speaker 1: together and did this. And then like you said, they

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Speaker 1: did it with bucks and they were able to print

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Speaker 1: I think forty thousand copies of Rolling Stone number one.

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Speaker 1: There was a last minute decision to put a production

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Speaker 1: still of John Lennon in the from the movie How

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Speaker 1: I Won the War wearing like um, like fatigues and

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Speaker 1: like um a helmet with netting on it and everything

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Speaker 1: he's looking at the Camera's a very famous photograph and

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Speaker 1: they said that it was like a perfect mix or

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Speaker 1: perfect um metaphor for the mix of like politics, culture

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Speaker 1: and music all rolled into one. It really was a

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Speaker 1: perfect photo for Rolling Stone number one's cover, for sure.

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Speaker 1: I think so, uh, maybe we could take a break

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Speaker 1: and talk about how that first issue fareds that is

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Speaker 1: that for a cliffhanger, it's great, all right, we'll be

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Speaker 1: right back and shock stop. Did it sell? No? Did

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Speaker 1: it sell no? Chuck? Now, that first forty thousand, I

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Speaker 1: believe thirty four thousand issues were returned. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of this was in part to the fact that

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Speaker 1: they tried to be their own distributor, which they realized

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Speaker 1: right away was not a good idea. Uh, and so

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Speaker 1: they quickly signed deals with distributors and news stands, and

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Speaker 1: UH realized that you know, at cents a copy, weren't

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Speaker 1: going to make a lot of money with that sort

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Speaker 1: of distributor partnership. Model. No. So, I mean they did

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Speaker 1: the sensible thing, and they gave up a pretty significant

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Speaker 1: chunk of their their margin to that distribution distribution company.

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Speaker 1: But in return, they were able to grow grow, grow,

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Speaker 1: like from issue number two or three. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: exactly when they took on that new distributor, but it

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Speaker 1: was pretty soon after the failure of the first issue. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then they started selling pretty well. Um, as far

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Speaker 1: as the name goes, they did get a thing sort

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Speaker 1: of threatened, um legally speaking, by the Rolling Stones music group. Um,

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Speaker 1: but they sort of got out of that pretty quickly.

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Speaker 1: I think they may have realized, hey, maybe it's good

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Speaker 1: to be friends with this up and coming music magazine.

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Speaker 1: I don't really know for sure, but yeah, that would

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Speaker 1: make sense. Yeah. I saw um that it was I

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Speaker 1: saw I described as a letter writing campaign or correspondence

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Speaker 1: between that was initiated by Mick Jagger to John Winner

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Speaker 1: basically saying, hey, man, you can use this, but how

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Speaker 1: about some free advertising and lots of really good coverage

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Speaker 1: and all that. Um exactly what? Yeah, And I guess

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Speaker 1: they got dropped or something like that. Supposedly only that

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Speaker 1: initial letters survived, so no one knows exactly how it

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Speaker 1: panned out. But John Winner was definitely the kind of

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Speaker 1: person to trade you know, space for something else, like

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Speaker 1: maybe advertising dollars or you know, a favorable review of

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Speaker 1: a record um in Rich earned for that record company

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Speaker 1: or the parent company, Advertising and Rolling Stone. He was

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Speaker 1: definitely not only not not above doing that, he was

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Speaker 1: actively chasing that kind of opportunity. Yeah, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's a lot of people that would

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Speaker 1: stand up and say that Jan Winner was the greatest

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Speaker 1: boss they ever had, especially back in those days. I

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Speaker 1: think he might have cleaned up his act, you know,

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Speaker 1: later on, But in the sixties and seventies, it was

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Speaker 1: very well known that he would, like you said, make

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Speaker 1: these sort of under the table deals. He would play

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Speaker 1: labels and writers against one another, uh ad, sales people

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Speaker 1: against one another. He was apparently a pretty cruel editor.

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Speaker 1: He was never the best writer in the world. He

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Speaker 1: wrote some reviews and things here and there, but that

329
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Speaker 1: wasn't his strong suit. But um yeah, he was known

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Speaker 1: as being fairly misogynist and sexist and sort of all

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Speaker 1: the things you might imagine from a uh sort of

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Speaker 1: magazine editor in chief. In the nineteen seventies, yeah, like

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Speaker 1: a good example for the first issue and early on

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Speaker 1: in Rolling Stones Life, Um, a guy named Michael Lyden

335
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Speaker 1: was the managing editor and he used to write for Newsweek,

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Speaker 1: and he brought his wife Linda along, who was also

337
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Speaker 1: a writer and an editor, and Jon Winner made Linda

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Speaker 1: answer the phones because she was one of the few

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Speaker 1: women working there. Right, it's a good example. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: this isn't a hit piece. There's a a very well

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Speaker 1: known biography of Beyond Winner out there that is um also,

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Speaker 1: while not a hit piece, not very kind to him

343
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Speaker 1: at all, the Sticky Fingers one that came out, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: So he had been, apparently on Winner had been shopping

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Speaker 1: his his story around for you know, to be written,

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Speaker 1: initially by a ghostwriter and then finally a biographer. Like

347
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Speaker 1: he couldn't get anybody to do it because he was

348
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Speaker 1: just known as such a control freak and everybody was like,

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Speaker 1: I do not want to be involved with you for

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Speaker 1: three or four years writing your story, Like he would

351
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Speaker 1: pick a part line by line captions under photos in magazines.

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Speaker 1: This is in the nineties. He was still doing this,

353
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Speaker 1: you know, like he was that kind of Boston You

354
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 1: can just imagine what a train wrecked nightmare. He would

355
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,680
Speaker 1: have been if you were his biographer. He finally got

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Speaker 1: somebody to do it, but that somebody said, dude, you've

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Speaker 1: got to give me creative control over this. You have

358
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Speaker 1: to give you freedom, and the you know, the guy

359
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,080
Speaker 1: like you said. It wasn't a hit piece, but it

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Speaker 1: also wasn't just fawning and flattering like apparently Yon Winner

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Speaker 1: had kind of hoped it would be. Right of course. Um,

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Speaker 1: as far as circulation goes, they say that it peaked

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight with a circulation of one

364
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Speaker 1: point four million, uh and as around five hundred thousand today,

365
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Speaker 1: about twenty seven thousand of which is actually I believe,

366
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Speaker 1: like you know, paper copies, although maybe that's just news

367
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Speaker 1: stand and not subscription. Yeah. I was wondering if that

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Speaker 1: number reflects their um digital subscribership, because actually it is.

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Speaker 1: And honestly, I never really knew what magazine distribution equaled anyway,

370
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Speaker 1: so I was surprised is that it peaked at one

371
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Speaker 1: point four million, which just seems for such an iconic

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Speaker 1: magazine that just doesn't seem like a lot of human

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Speaker 1: beings reading a magazine. No, I mean, think about it,

374
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Speaker 1: We're not too far off from Rolling stones peak. You know,

375
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Speaker 1: I didn't want to say that, but that's what I

376
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Speaker 1: was thinking. I was like, I had a Caesar salad

377
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 1: for lunch, so I'm feeling rather chilled anyway. Um, yeah,

378
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Speaker 1: I don't know what I thought it would be a

379
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Speaker 1: figure to be like ten million or something like that,

380
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Speaker 1: but no, that's still rather respectable one pointion. That's subscribed

381
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 1: to a lot of people, I believe. Yeah, circulation. I

382
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 1: think that includes new stands sales. But the reason I'm

383
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Speaker 1: wondering whether the web or the digital subscribers are included

384
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Speaker 1: in that later number the recent stuff, is because they

385
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Speaker 1: very famously, I should say, Yahn Winner very famously shunned

386
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Speaker 1: the idea of moving into the digital realm. And even

387
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 1: even as his son Gus was the guy who was

388
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: running the digital arm, he still wouldn't give him resources

389
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: to support like a genuine website. Yeah. An example I

390
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 1: saw is that Rolling Stone broke some story. I can't

391
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: remember what story it was, but it was a big story,

392
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: and um, everybody had to go read about it on

393
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: other digital news sites because they hadn't posted anything or

394
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 1: the story on Rolling Stone website. Like it was like

395
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 1: that interesting. Uh. They've also changed format just size wise

396
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,919
Speaker 1: over the years. They they started out, you know as

397
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Speaker 1: a sort of regular size smaller magazine or or should

398
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 1: I just say average magazine. Um, And it was in

399
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: black and white with the with a little bit of

400
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: color here and there, like a single color process, and

401
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 1: then in the early seventies switched to a for color

402
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:47,479
Speaker 1: process and went to that glossy large format style that

403
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone like to me, was really known for. It

404
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: was always just different because it was a big, large magazine,

405
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: but also it was glossy, but it wasn't like the

406
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: glossy slick magazine pages of day. It wasn't it glossy

407
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: newsprint basically. Yeah, So that that gave it its own

408
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: field too, along with the size, Like it was definitely

409
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: its own own thing, right, But then it went back

410
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 1: to the small, and then now is back to the big,

411
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 1: isn't there? Right? Yeah? In two thousand and eight they

412
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: went to standard magazine size. In two thousand and eighteen

413
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 1: they said, I'll forget it, We're going back to the

414
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: ten by twelve. I'm glad they did. I mean that's

415
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 1: I don't again, I don't buy the paper version, but

416
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 1: I just always associated that sort of iconic tin by

417
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: it turns out eleven and three quarter size. It's a

418
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: quarter inch really bugs me, Yeah, it does. He just

419
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 1: made me snort man good. So. Um. Initially Rolling Stone

420
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 1: was like a national magazine that was centered in San

421
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: Francisco because again that was the epicenter of the hippie

422
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 1: movement of everything that was going on that was important

423
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: in the late sixties and early seventies, right. But then

424
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: Jon Winner kind of spiritually decamped from San Francisco even

425
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: before the magazine did. And then finally Ralph Gleason, Remember

426
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: Ralph Gleason, the jazz critic who kind of co founded

427
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone. He kept a column in every issue where

428
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: basically he was just talking about San Francisco goings on

429
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: or whatever, and he eventually was like the last tether

430
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: to the origin the roots in San Francisco. And when

431
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: he died, Jan Winner waited a couple more years and

432
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: then moved the whole thing to New York City and

433
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 1: it was officially a gen bona fide national, you could

434
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: even say international magazine around that time. Yeah, And I

435
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 1: think from what I understand, when Gleeson died, he was

436
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: sort of battling with Winner at the time. Uh, and

437
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: that they had had fallings out and I believe I'm

438
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 1: not so sure if it was personal, but maybe it

439
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: got personal, but it was definitely over like the direction

440
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: of the magazine. I think I always got the feeling

441
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: that Gleeson was a little less likely to be accused

442
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: of some of the sort of sell out things that

443
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: went Winner would eventually be accused of. He was a

444
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: jazz critic. That's not exactly as you pursue when you're

445
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 1: an ambitious, money hungry, you know, Wall Street type. Yeah,

446
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 1: I think that's a good point. So, um, it makes

447
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: a really good point here. I've seen it elsewhere too,

448
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: And it's kind of like something that people have realized

449
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: in the last few years, maybe last decade or so,

450
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: and that is that Rolling Stone is possibly the most

451
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: important mouthpiece for the Boomer generation, and that it was

452
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: so important. It's entirely possible that things like Woodstock or

453
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: the Beatles, or the Summer of Love or all the

454
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: stuff we associate with the beginnings of Boomers and then

455
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: onward and onward, um, that Rolling Stone amplified it to

456
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: a way that now we think of those things as

457
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: like historic events, but they might not be we might

458
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: think of them as historic events because Rolling Stone amplified it. Yeah,

459
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't agree with that, but I do

460
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: agree that has been a boomer mouthpiece for sure. But

461
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: I don't think that one could reasonably make an argument

462
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: that the Beatles wouldn't be the Beatles that had not

463
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: been for Rolling Stone magazine coverage. No, no, no, I

464
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: don't think that's the point. I think the point is

465
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: would would the would we consider the Beatles as having

466
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: changed the world if Rolling Stone had never been there? Yeah,

467
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: I definitely think so. That's just my opinion. Um, what

468
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: about wings Oh I love wings Man Jet give me

469
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 1: that all day long. One thing Rolling Stone was definitely

470
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 1: at the forefront of, even though they did not create

471
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: what's called, um, the new journalism. And this was basically

472
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: when journalism went from kind of anonymous style reporting to

473
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: putting the writer right in the middle of the story

474
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: and sometimes the story was even about the writer in

475
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: the case of a Hunter S. Thompson, who was also

476
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: at the forefront of new journalism. And it was very

477
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: uh literary style writing. It was very uh not flowery

478
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: because that sounds kind of haughty, but just sort of

479
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 1: a kind of a higher caliber literary style writing than

480
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 1: typical journalism had been. Um, I love it. I've always

481
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: been a big fan of new journalism. I think it

482
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 1: has its place, um and shouldn't be confused with other

483
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 1: kinds of journalism. But UM, I've always been a big,

484
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: big fan. Yeah, it's amazing. UM. And there's so Hunter Thompson.

485
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: He was so he was so at the forefront of it.

486
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: He actually spun off his own subdiscipline called gonzo journalism,

487
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: which is um new journalism to the extreme, like that

488
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: when you spell extremes starting with an ex kind of thing. Right,

489
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: Why haven't we done an episode entirely on him yet?

490
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: Will someday. It just seems very strange for us. But

491
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: he so, Um Jan Winner did not discover Hunter Thompson. Um.

492
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: He is actually kind of introduced to the magazine world.

493
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: He'd already written Hell's Angels in nineteen sixty eight, so

494
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: he made a name for himself. But the first piece

495
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: of gonzo journalism is considered um the Kentucky Derby is

496
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: decadent and depraved. That was commissioned by UM warren Hinkel,

497
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: who had gone off and started another magazine former Ramparts chief. Yes, exactly.

498
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: And Warren Hinkel was the genius who put Ralph Steadman

499
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: and Hunter Thompson together, and they first appeared together in

500
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: the UM. I can't remember Scanlon's I think is the

501
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: name of the magazine with the Kentucky Derby is decadent

502
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: and depraved, and so Joan Winner saw this, He's like,

503
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: this guy needs to come right for me. Or I

504
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: think it might have been the other way around. I

505
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: think Hunter Thompson showed up at Rolling Stones offices and

506
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: basically demanded that he'd be made a writer for that magazine. Yeah,

507
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: and was certainly, you know, one of the most famous

508
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: writers they ever had, along with Um. Cameron Crowe of course,

509
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: was well known as a teenage writer for Rolling Stone magazine.

510
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: I know he got a cover assignment age sixteen brothers

511
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: and that's what almost famous is based on. Yeah, and

512
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: he very famously too, was sort of based on his

513
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: work with the band Eagles. You mean the Eagles. It's Eagles,

514
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: And I always just like to annoy people by saying Eagles.

515
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: That's awesome, because it's like, who else was it or

516
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: might have already talked about this, It's Eagles. And uh oh,

517
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: Hall of Notates. It's like Daryl Hall has a big

518
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: be in his bondent about the fact that they're not

519
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: Hall of Notes. They were always Darryll Hall and John

520
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: Oates and He's like, people just called us that, and

521
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: that's not It's not on any of the records there.

522
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: They all say Darryl Hall and John Oates and the

523
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: Eagles don him. He's always like, it never was the Eagles,

524
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: it's Eagles. I'm like, all right, just relax. Another way

525
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: to annoy people, Chuck is just to play Eagles music.

526
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: I came back around with the Eagles, did you. Yeah?

527
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: I mean I took I took off. I love them

528
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: growing up, and I took off probably twenty years, two

529
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: solid decades of no Eagles, and then I came back around.

530
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: I was like, I love this music. What am I doing?

531
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: You're back off the wagon. Uh So anyway, hunteris Thompson

532
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,959
Speaker 1: a very famous writer for them, obviously, uh And he

533
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: did something which other writers in the New journalism school

534
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: would do, which was including one Tom Wolfe was used

535
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: the magazine as not a testing ground but as sort

536
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: of the beginnings of what would become books. By writing

537
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: these sort of chapter like installments, uh, every issue, and

538
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: Hunter Thompson did that. Tom Wolfe did that with his

539
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: early work on what would become The Right Stuff and

540
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: the Bonfire the Vanities. Yeah, Man, Tom Wolf, I think

541
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: is my I prefer Tom Wolf the Hunter Thompson these days.

542
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: I think he's so interesting. Yeah, I just like him more.

543
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: But Hunter Thompson's um Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

544
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: was was born out of two different assignments where Rolling

545
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: Stone sent him to Las Vegas first to cover the

546
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: MIT four hundred, the cover that right, the police convention

547
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: on Drugs, that's where the books can from. Was those

548
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: his submissions for from those two assignments. I think Tom

549
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: Wolf is the natural graduation point from Like you like

550
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: Hunter S. Thompson more in your twenties and thirties, maybe, yeah,

551
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: But I also wrote Electric coolid koolid Asset Tests around

552
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: the same time, and I was just like, I love

553
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: Hunter Thompson, but Tom Wolf is just I think, by

554
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: far the better journalist. Yeah. Electric koolid Asset Tests is

555
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: the only thing I've read by Tom Wolf. Actually, The

556
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: Right Stuff is really amazing too. About Tom Wolf. Is

557
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: he because he's a new journalist. He writes about things

558
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: where he can be kind of involved or like he's there,

559
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: or it's really kind of like he puts you in

560
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: the middle of what's going on sometimes in people's like

561
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: bedrooms at night, when a guy talking to his wife,

562
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: and he does it so well that you forget first

563
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: of all that you're not there, but then you forget

564
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: that he wasn't there either. Like he's working off interviews

565
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: sometimes other author's notes, um, and he just gives me

566
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: he's he's so good at it. You just assumed like

567
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: he was there for all the stuff, and he wasn't

568
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: there for any of it. There's like a couple in

569
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: bed and it just pans over and Tom while sitting

570
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: there in his searsucker his legs crossed. Very interesting, Can

571
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: you say that again? Other famous writers early on that

572
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: went on to have outside careers elsewhere is MTB Skurt Loader,

573
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: Joe Estra House, uh, screenwriter and filmmaker. What oh Estra

574
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: House was? He was fatal attraction, right, fatal attraction. It

575
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: just goes downhill from there, basically instinct. Yeah, Liver, Show

576
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: Girls Jake of course, but it's weird, like he had

577
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: a real type his his screenplay was a real like

578
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: you know, like, hey, you want to see some some boobs,

579
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: twelve year old kid, come see my movies. Yeah, absolutely. Uh.

580
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: Lester Bangs from Cream magazine wrote for Rolling Stone, and

581
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,240
Speaker 1: then of course the legendary journalist being Ben Fong Torres,

582
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: who was one of the greatest Rolling Stone writers in

583
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: their in their history for sure, yeah, for sure. And

584
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: all these people like were legitimately great writers, Um, and

585
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: they were contributing to this music magazine that really just

586
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: also had its finger on the pulse of really good

587
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: journalism too. Yeah. So in that UM article on the

588
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: from the Atlantic, they do quite a bit of speculating

589
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: on UM sort of when they think Rolling Stone might

590
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 1: have started selling out and become something untrue to its roots.

591
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: And and they basically talked about even in the seventies

592
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 1: and eighties, basically, you know, Jan Winner saw the writing

593
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: on the wall and said, hey, we can't just be

594
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: a boomer archive and a nostalgia jam and I want

595
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: to sell mag magazine. So we're gonna start writing about

596
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: TV shows and comedians and and uh, I mean they

597
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: always write about politics, but you know, really expanded beyond

598
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: the sort of mission statement which was a largely music

599
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,720
Speaker 1: magazine which also wrote about politics, and it became something

600
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: else entirely and really became a popular, hugely popular magazine. Yeah,

601
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: because I mean like Rolling Stone as an institution was

602
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: just keeping up with the times. Um if it if

603
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: it was you know, looking backward to like the greatest

604
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: moments in boomer history. You can thank Yon Winner almost

605
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: personally for that. And so it's kind of weird as

606
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: as John Winner, who was like controlling everything. He he

607
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: had to let the magazine reinvent itself, even though he personally,

608
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: you know, he you know, I'm sure he did. He

609
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: went to Studio fifty four and stuff like that in

610
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: the in the seventies and like, you know, went to

611
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: Sardes for lunch in the eighties and all that stuff.

612
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: But he, like I saw an interview with him in

613
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: two thousand and seventeen and he just casually tosses out

614
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: the Stones and the Beatles, and it's like, it's two

615
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: thousand seventeen, man, and this guy is still sighting like

616
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 1: the Big Three whenever he brings up music from the sixties, right,

617
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: So it was the Beatles, It was the Beatles, the Stones.

618
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 1: I think I automatically questioned, somebody who uses the Stones

619
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: and that's it, and then um, and I'm trying to

620
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 1: find this quote. It was like an interview with mpr um.

621
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: But oh, the Beatles, the Stones and Dylan. That's another

622
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: thing too. If you just say Dylan and the Stones,

623
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: I say both those things, all right, Chuck. But my

624
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: my point is that Yon Winners frequently accused of what's

625
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: called rockism, which is we talked about it in our

626
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: Rock and Roll Hall of Fame episode, this idea that

627
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: rock is white guys using a bass and electric guitar, drums,

628
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: maybe a rhythm guitar, and a lead singer. Um, they

629
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: probably use a lot of hair product and like that's

630
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: rock and nothing else matters. Apparently want John Winner really

631
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 1: personifies that. And one of the reasons why people get

632
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: snubbed from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inexplicably

633
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: is because of him specifically, it seems, yeah, I mean

634
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: he's is he the head chair or is he just

635
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: on the board. He's definitely high up in it enough

636
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: that he can be like, no, I don't even want

637
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 1: them on the ballot kind of thing. Yeah, And if

638
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: you remember our Rock and Roll Hall of Fame episode

639
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: we talk about snubs, and a lot of people have

640
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: had very personal beefs with Winner over the years because

641
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: of this. Um. I'm going to read a couple of

642
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: choice quotes from his This from the Atlantic article, but

643
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: from his biography, Winner was a little barbarian who's less

644
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: for money, drugs, and sex threatened to outpace his razor

645
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: intellect and turn him into Augustus Gloup falling into the

646
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 1: chocolate river of the nineteen sixties. Rolling Stone was an

647
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: expression of winners pursuit of fame and power a magazine

648
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,399
Speaker 1: more than occasionally at the mercy of his editors, unembarrassed

649
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: appetite for stardom and excess, with which made him an

650
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 1: object of scorn and parity. And basically he said it

651
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: was a parable for the age of narcissism. Uh And

652
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: then one final little bit here. As newsstand sales rose,

653
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: Winner became hungry for still more sales. By the mid seventies,

654
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 1: the focus of Rolling Stone had shifted from what the

655
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: editors determined to be the best in pop culture to

656
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: what was measurably the biggest. And I think that was

657
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 1: where a lot of people say he lost his way.

658
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: It was like, well, what's hot, let's just write about that,

659
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: not what's great. Yeah, I saw there was a dust

660
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: up years back, I guess in the nineties maybe where

661
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: one of his music reviewers didn't write a flattering review

662
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: of who Who Do You In the Blowfish's latest album,

663
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: and Jon Winner himself killed the review and had assigned

664
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 1: it to another writer who wrote a much more favorable review,

665
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 1: and they were like, well, you know this, this record

666
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,280
Speaker 1: company is a huge ever TiSER with Rolling Stone, and

667
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's what he just did that, you know.

668
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: And I think people see him as a founder of

669
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: this like really hip magazine that was like a voice

670
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: in a reflection of the times, and it kept reinventing itself,

671
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: and they want him to be like legit and grounded

672
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: in like that kind of ethos, and he just wasn't.

673
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: Like people wanted to pigeonhol him like that, and he

674
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: just was not like that. I don't know him well enough,

675
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: and I haven't read his biography to see if he

676
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 1: tried to put himself out there like that and that's

677
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: why people expected him be or if it was just

678
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: because he was so closely associated with Rolling Stone. People

679
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: mistakenly assumed things about him and then found out it

680
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: wasn't actually that way. I don't know which is which.

681
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: All right, so, uh let's take our second break and

682
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: we'll talk about some of the biggest controversies in Rolling

683
00:39:49,280 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: Stone history right after this shock stop stop stop. Okay,

684
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: we're back, chuck um, and we're here to talk about

685
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: now some of the low points of Rolling down history.

686
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 1: This isn't a hit piece, no, but I mean, I

687
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: think all of the things that we're going to talk

688
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: about in the last bit here can be uh classified

689
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: under one in one big bucket, which is bad journalism,

690
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 1: uh lazy journalism, abandoning journalistic integrity for the sake of

691
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 1: an article. And it's really a shame that they've done

692
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: this kind of repeatedly. Yeah, Joe Esther hass is rolling

693
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: over on top of show Girl right now. Oh boy,

694
00:40:55,200 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 1: that to sight. Uh So, I guess if among these

695
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: um sort of high profile instances is the article A

696
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: rape on Campus by sabrina Ardly, which made all kinds

697
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 1: of news. It was a story about a gang rape

698
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 1: at the University of Virginia at a fraternity house, and

699
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: the more of the story sort of was investigated. The

700
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: more it came out that, um, not only were there

701
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: a lot of big time journalistic flaws, UM, but you know,

702
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 1: eventually uh, lawsuits and a full retraction of the story

703
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: and police investigations that the story was was made up.

704
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 1: I mean journalism one oh one flaws like Um. The

705
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: author Sabrina Ruben eardly did not interview friends, UM, who

706
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: came out publicly and said, Hey, what this what the

707
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: story is saying is not what Jackie, the pseudonym of

708
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: the woman who claimed to have been I think gang

709
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 1: raped even eternity house. Um, that's not what she told

710
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: us that night. There wasn't even a party that night. Um.

711
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 1: And apparently it just became more and more clear that

712
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: the the entire event did not happen, and that the

713
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones journalists who they sent out to do this

714
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: really important story did not didn't do some basic fact

715
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 1: checking and as a result just bought the whole thing

716
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: hook line and sinker. Yeah. And in the end Rolling

717
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: Stone ended up either losing or settling a bunch of

718
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: lawsuits with administration at u v A, some of the students,

719
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: and the fraternity at u v A. UM. It came

720
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 1: out during this process that apparently there were text messages

721
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: that seemed to support the idea that this young woman

722
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: made this up to gain the affection of a boy

723
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 1: on campus. UM. I tried to look as much into

724
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: it as I could, but um, in the end, they

725
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: completely retracted the article, which is a really big deal

726
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: for a major publication to like fully attract and say,

727
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: all right, this article, we do not stand by it.

728
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: We're taking it, you know, we have takes these backsease privileges.

729
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 1: And they even commission I guess, to their credit, a

730
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: Columbia University School of Journalism review and published that the

731
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 1: findings of that review, which were not kind. No, the

732
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: review was titled Tisk tisc tisks. But even worse than

733
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 1: you know, Rolling Stone losing face and credibility and millions

734
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: of dollars, is that like this was used as shorthand

735
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 1: for people who kind of who were like, we shouldn't

736
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: really believe you know, rape survivors, and that keeps that

737
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: has a chilling effect on actual rape survivors from coming

738
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: forward and like naming their accusers. It was a huge,

739
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: huge problem that was created by this that you know,

740
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: I think it would even came up in the Brett

741
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: Kavanaugh hearing somebody basically used it from that and Tomill

742
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: cause we talked about it on the courthouse steps. Are

743
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: you serious? Yeow? So yeah, So it was a big deal.

744
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: It was a big fall down, and you can really

745
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 1: easily point to that as the biggest mistake in the

746
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 1: history of Rolling Stone Magazine by far. Yeah. Another big

747
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: one was an article in two thousand three from Gregory

748
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: Freeman about what's called bug chasers, which is, um, what

749
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 1: appears to be a very fringe thing where gay men

750
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: want to be HIV positive and and try to have

751
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: unprotected sex with people they know are HIV positive and

752
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: basically the same kind of thing, not a lot of

753
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: fact checking. Um. He interviewed a couple of doctors who

754
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: he says they they said that they um said it

755
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: was like of the gay male community are bug chasers,

756
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: And both of the doctors said, I never said that

757
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: at all, like I said the opposite. And then the

758
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: author later came out and said, no, I remember those

759
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: conversations explicitly, and they're just not admitting to it. And

760
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: I didn't record the interviews, which you should probably alwaystes do,

761
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: And so that that was obviously another big sort of

762
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,399
Speaker 1: black eye on the magazine. Yeah. Um and then so

763
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: uh and I think it was they were saying new

764
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 1: HIV cases come from bug chasers. Yeah, but it's still

765
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: it's just that's just a ridiculously a ridiculous amount. So chuck. Um,

766
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 1: this was in the past, right. There was another big

767
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: one to another big flub. They sent Sean Penn to

768
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: interview El Chapo, like the most powerful vicious drug cartel

769
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: leader in the world. They sent Sean Penn to do it,

770
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: and Sean Penn sent back a dispatch that was really flattering,

771
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: really sympathetic, and really one sided. And so they were

772
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: really criticized for that as well. But that's all in

773
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 1: the past. Rolling Stone has refound its footing correct and

774
00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: it's everything. It's all good now. Uh No, apparently not correct. Uh.

775
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 1: Just recently, I remember just reading this in my subscription

776
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: not too long ago. They wrote an article about Taylor

777
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: Hawkins after he'd like very soon after he died. That Um,

778
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 1: a lot of the people in the article, like you know,

779
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: famous musicians that were quoted, came out and said, wait

780
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: a minute, this is really taken out of context. I

781
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: didn't mean this stuff. I didn't say this stuff. The

782
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 1: article kind of basically said that the Foo fighters kind

783
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: of killed him with their schedule and that Dave Grohl

784
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't let up, and it was, you know, had a

785
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: big reason. It was a big reason why he died,

786
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: and that was a very recent stain. They also did

787
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: a hit piece on Marilyn Manson that didn't preside present

788
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: any of his side of the story. He was accused

789
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 1: of sexual abuse by a next girlfriend, Evan rachel Wood,

790
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: and it was, um, yeah, very one sided, and a

791
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: lot of people came out and said, like the ones

792
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: who were quoted were like, I gave them paragraphs and

793
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: paragraphs of stuff, and they used one sentence, you know,

794
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: because I was speaking out in defense of Maryland Manson.

795
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: And um there's also one that was considered having given

796
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: a moral victory to anti vax ER's. They posted a

797
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: story about how Oklahoma's emergency rooms were being overrun with

798
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: people who are having toxic reactions to iver Mechten, who

799
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,320
Speaker 1: are taking that that cattle d wermer when they caught

800
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: COVID and apparently it was just fake wrong. Not only that,

801
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: they ran a picture of people lined up wearing masks

802
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 1: and winter coats and the events that they described were

803
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: took place in summer, so it was just from top

804
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: to bottom a terrible story. And that seems to be

805
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: what's going on. And I read an article on UM

806
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: a website called Saving Country Music and this this UM

807
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: author basically points to the hiring of Noah Shackman from

808
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 1: The Daily Beast to take over, and Noah Shackman said,

809
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 1: We're going to start making our journalism more mediate, more visceral,

810
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: and faster, louder and harder. And this Saving Country Music

811
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: person is like, that's the opposite of what journalists are

812
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 1: supposed to do. When you do things fast and immediate,

813
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: you're sacrificing like follow ups, getting secondary sources, fact checking,

814
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: and that seems to be where a lot of the

815
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: most recent like flubs and um biffs are coming from. Yeah, Like,

816
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 1: I think it's that digital journalism thing where you want

817
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 1: to be the first to break a story, and that's

818
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 1: where it's just a minefield if you try and operate

819
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: that way, you know, Yeah, but I also get the

820
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: impression that it's also there it's clickbait. They're fanning the

821
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: flames of outrage culture and or like at the expense

822
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 1: of society. Sanity basically is how this saving country music

823
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: person put it. And they're trying to save country music. Yeah,

824
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: but now they had some. It was a really airy, dight, amazing,

825
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 1: like really insightful post by Trigger on saving country music

826
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: dot com. You got anything else? I got nothing else.

827
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 1: I mean this could have been a two parter, but

828
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: that that's a good Rolling Stone Magazine overview. I'm still

829
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 1: going to read it, but gonna take it or what

830
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: it's worth. But get get a subscription to Cream. Well

831
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,240
Speaker 1: that's it everybody for Rolling Stone. And since Chuck said

832
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 1: get a subscription to Cream, of course that means it's

833
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:16,240
Speaker 1: time for listener mail. Uh. This is a great email

834
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: from a mom in New Zealand, Kia or a Josh

835
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: and Chuck. I'm writing you all the way from New

836
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: Zealand and it's currently ten three pm and I need

837
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: to thank you. You. My friends are my last bargaining chip,

838
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: my last resort and more often than not the best

839
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: thing to get a bit of peace. Sounds like an insult,

840
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 1: but let me explain. I have too wonderful, beautiful, enthusiastic,

841
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: intelligent girls eleven and nine years old and a frequent

842
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 1: occurrence in our house is the reluctance to go to bed.

843
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: Sometimes sleep just eludes them. I get it, it alludes

844
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 1: me to However, if all else fails, what about Josh

845
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 1: and Chuck. We'll usually get them to where I need

846
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: them to be, tucked up in usually my bed, with

847
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: your two comforting voices teaching them about animal science and

848
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: random things. They settle and relax enough to let old

849
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 1: Sandman take them away. Although your content is incredibly interesting,

850
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: your tones are soothing and comforting, like a big hug

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00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 1: to settle into. And you are often my go to

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00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 1: when I need a comfort food podcast, and it seems

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00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 1: you have the same effect on my girls. Keep being awesome.

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00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: You're very much appreciated from a tired mom Bethany. And

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00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: I wrote Bethany back and asked if she wanted to

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00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: name her girls, and she said absolutely that is Alison Page.

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00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 1: And she had just written me back after I believe

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00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: using our show to get Page to sleep. Very nice.

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00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 1: Alison Page also known as Thing one and Thing two.

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00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: That's right and Alison Page give mom a break, cooperated bedtime,

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00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: let's get kids, get it together kids? Well, thank you?

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00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 1: Who was the mom? Bethany Thank you very much, Bethany.

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00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: That was very nice to let us know that, and

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00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 1: I'm glad we could help out. And hello to Alice

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00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: and Paige and everybody. They're down under. Uh she from

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00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: New Zealand, New Zealand, Okay, Unders exactly. UM. If you

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00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:12,439
Speaker 1: want to get in touch with us, like Bethany did,

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00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 1: you can send us an email, even from New Zealand.

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00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: It'll get here, wrap it up, spanked on the bottom,

870
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: and send it off to stuff podcast at iHeart radio

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00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of

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00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the

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00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.