1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Hello, this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: listening to stuff Mom never told you. Now today I 3 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: wanted to dive into a topic that's sort have been 4 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: top of mind lately, and that's because I'm generally unnerved 5 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: by people who are seem to be egomaniacs or narcissists 6 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: or really really stuck on themselves. In this line of work, 7 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: you really do encounter a lot of people who seem 8 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: completely self obsessed. And it got me thinking, Gee, what's 9 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: the difference between someone who seems like they have a 10 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: bit of an ego and someone who was a genuine, 11 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: clinical pathological narcissist. In doing some of this research, I 12 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: sort of realized that narcissistic personality disorder, much like gas lighting, 13 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: is one of those things that can be really useful 14 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: in understanding our relationship with people around us. And this 15 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: is especially true. What do you think about people who 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: are raised by narcissists? Yes? Absolutely, And perhaps a good 17 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: place to start is with the definition what is narcissistic 18 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: personality disorder or mp D. Narcissistic personality disorder is part 19 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: of the cluster b or a dramatic group of disorders 20 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 1: and is a mental illness that manifest as an excessive 21 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: preoccupation with personal adequacy, power, vanity, and prestige. People in 22 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: mp D appear to be arrogant or appear to believe 23 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 1: they have an unjustified sense of entitlement and demonstrate grandiosity 24 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: in their beliefs or behavior. They have a strong desire 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: for admiration praise, but seem to lack any sense of 26 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: empathy or ability to appreciate perspectives of others. Now, although 27 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: this disorder is sort of characterized with seeming like you're 28 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: better than others and all of that, a lot of 29 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: times at its poor people who have this disorder actually 30 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: feel really inferior or they feel like they're you know, 31 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: they're not good enough, and so it's kind of defense 32 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: mechanism against those feelings by acting like you're the best, ever, 33 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: you're better than others, and putting yourself on a pedestal. 34 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: So it's kind of a mask almost too, to hide 35 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: how fragile you are, that are how you feel, or 36 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: the part of you that's really vulnerable to any kind 37 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: of criticism. Yes, this is actually so. Again, one of 38 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: the reasons why I was interested in this topic is, 39 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: you know, those people in your life where you're thinking, 40 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: I don't know what it is about this person. We 41 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: just can't seem to communicate. We just can't seem to 42 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: click everything is about them, Like it just we can't 43 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: get on the same level. It kind of dawna me, like, Oh, 44 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: there are people who for whom it is a pathological problem. 45 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: You know, we're not on the same page. It's a 46 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: it's a clinical problem they're dealing with where they are 47 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: not capable of understanding and appreciating the perspectives of others. 48 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: They are not capable of having a normal sense of 49 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: who they are because of some trauma in their background 50 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: or because of some sort of clinical disorder. Yeah, And 51 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: like you said at the top, I think this is 52 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: really useful to no because there's a difference between having 53 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: this disorder or going through kind of a phase or 54 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: being self absorbed, and I think it's important to be 55 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: able to recognize that. And I would say one of 56 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: the most requested topics we get, probably the second most 57 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: requested topic we get, is how to deal with toxic 58 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: people or how to recognize toxic people. So I think 59 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: a lot of us are looking for more tools to 60 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: recognize these people and possibly if necessary, how to deal 61 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: with them or cut them out of our lives. Yeah, 62 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: I actually it's it doesn't surprise me that our listenership 63 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: is mostly women and that women are writing in for 64 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: advice on dealing with people like this, because I think 65 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: as women, we are taught to internalize things so much, 66 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: and so if you deal with someone who is really 67 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: really toxic or really you know, our inclination is to 68 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: be like, am I being crazy? And then finding out 69 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: that actually there's a word for this, there's a community 70 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: for this or whatever that can be really empowering. So 71 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't actually surprise me that women are the ones 72 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: who are writing in being like, YO, tell me I'm 73 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 1: not crazy, that that I'm having this really strange interpersonal 74 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: reaction with someone that almost seems like they have a 75 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: pathological problem. In fact, I think there are a lot 76 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: of people out there who do have real stuff they 77 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: need to unpack, but rather than doing that, they're just 78 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,559 Speaker 1: inflicting it on us. And I think by on us, 79 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: I mean women. And it's hard to recognize when you 80 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: need to cut someone out, or it can feel like 81 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: a failure, but it absolutely isn't. And a lot of 82 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: literature is careful to mention that while mp D can 83 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: start showing while you're a team, most teenagers do go 84 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: through a normal, healthy narcissistic phase. I've bet a lot 85 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: of us can relate, which is not to be confused 86 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: with MPD. That's different. Most of us do grow out 87 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: of it, realizing the world does not in fact revolve 88 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: around us in our teenage selves and lives exactly. So, 89 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: if you find yourself dealing with someone who is an 90 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: adult who is full grown but seems to still have 91 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: that youthful attitude that the world revolves around them and 92 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: that other people exist solely too for them to relate 93 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: to themselves through you're thinking, you might be thinking, oh, 94 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: that person could be a narcissist. According to the Personality 95 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: Disorder Awareness Network, narcissistic personality disorder can often be the 96 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: result of childhood abuse. When a child is abused or 97 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: when they experienced trauma, the mind attempts to discover a 98 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: method to help forget about the wounds and prevent this 99 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 1: abuse from happening again. As a defense mechanism, narcissism develops. 100 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like what you were saying before 101 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: an in terms of it being a mass. Researchers say 102 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: that it's similar to a bulletproof emotional shield that has 103 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: been erected as an attempt to entirely protect their feelings 104 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: and believe that they are inferior in some way, and 105 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: people with MPD have an overwhelming fear of powerlessness, as 106 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 1: perhaps their power to be safe was taken away by 107 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: somebody more powerful than them through abuse or neglect, and 108 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: erecting a defense that manifests as superiority serves to protect 109 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: the mind and ensures that they don't become a victim again. 110 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: M p D can also develop as a result of 111 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: preoccupied or unresolved attachments with primary caregivers, at times, perhaps 112 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: with over indulgence alternating with neglectful parenting. So according to 113 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: health direct dot Org, here are some specific symptoms of 114 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: narcissistic personality disorder. Inability to listen to others, fantasizing about power, beauty, 115 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: and success, exaggerating achievements and abilities, superiority specifically towards people 116 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: perceived as lower in status, lack of awareness regarding others, 117 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: increased risks of using drugs and alcohol, social withdrawal, inflated 118 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: sense of entitlement, obsession with class and status, exploiting others 119 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:00,040 Speaker 1: of personal gain, lacking empathy, especially for perceived weakness. So 120 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: again they go on and on. Basically, it's someone who 121 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: thinks they're better than others, prioritize as our own feelings 122 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: and expense of hurting others, and just generally doesn't seem 123 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: to understand that other people exist in the world. Yeah, 124 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: and I wanted to mention this other sign can write 125 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: off friends permanently over small or imagined issues, because I 126 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: had a friend who did this, and if, say, she 127 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: was slow to respond to a text or something, I 128 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: would immediately think, Oh, I've done something and we're not 129 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: friends anymore. It was just always in the back of 130 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: my head that and I wouldn't know what it was, 131 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, like I would have no reason to think that, 132 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: but just the fact that I'd seen her do it 133 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: so many times, just get rid of friends, friends that 134 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: she'd been friends with for a long time over something 135 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: that at least to me seemed small or at the 136 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: very least you could work through it if you had 137 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: the desire to. So I just remember this kind of 138 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: constant thought in the back of my head with that 139 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: with that relationship, that it could end at any moment, 140 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: and I would have no control over it. Who can 141 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: live like that? Like who wants to live thinking that 142 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: the other shoe is always going to drop and this 143 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: person could drop you like that like a bad habit 144 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: so quickly, if over nothing, and that you like just 145 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: living knowing that you have no idea whether or not 146 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: this friendship is going to last based on nothing, like 147 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: not even knowing what you did. Yeah, it wasn't It 148 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: wasn't fun, And there was always this kind of second 149 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: guessing of everything and wondering whether or not something you 150 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: had said that you thought was innocuous could have possibly 151 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: offended this person. So I guess it does turn the 152 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: relationship into all about all about them. Yeah, And that's 153 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: that's like a hallmark of narcissistic behavior, is whether they're 154 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: conscious of it or not, manipulating others so that relationships 155 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: are always biased towards them and their feelings. And so 156 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter that Annie is living in sort of 157 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: perpetual fear that he's offended a friend because she doesn't 158 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: want to a friend a friend. What really matters is 159 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: the friends reaction and like it just gives it just 160 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: gives them all the power it's really so manipulative it is. 161 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: And another hallmark of mp D is unwillingness or inability 162 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: to admit you're wrong. So perhaps in this example, this 163 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: friend realizes that whoever she's angry with hasn't done anything wrong, 164 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: but you can't. She can't admit that either, so it 165 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: doesn't ever get resolved. Yeah, that actually reminds me a 166 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: lot of our episode on gas lighting, because when I 167 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: think about my relationship with someone, they haven't been diagnosed, 168 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: but like I suspect as a narcissist at least has 169 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: narcissistic behavior tendencies. It used to be this thing where 170 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: I would fantasize about getting them on tape and being like, 171 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: well you said this, and earlier you said that, like 172 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: and this, having to get them to admit, like you, 173 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: you were wrong, you lied, But then coming to realize 174 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: not only was that ever gonna happen, but that I 175 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: had to let go of that desire right that they 176 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: were who they were, and that I couldn't control or 177 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: fix them in that even if in my if my 178 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: fantasy came true, that I gotten to admit that they 179 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: were wrong and they said the wrong thing, or that 180 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: they lied and probably would feel empty because for them, 181 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: they would have a way wiggling out of it. Right, 182 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: even if I got them on tape lying and it 183 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: was indisputable proof that they had said the wrong thing 184 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: or lied or been manipulated or whatever, they would still 185 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: find a way to be like, oh, well, here's why 186 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: I wasn't actually wrong and actually you're wrong. There there 187 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: there will be like. That is a hallmark of narcissistic behavior, 188 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: is always finding a way to make it not your fault. Yes, 189 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: And as I've said many times before on this show, 190 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 1: should be one of my my slogans, even though it's 191 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: a sad one, I believe that people can find a 192 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: way to justify their behavior. They will find a way 193 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: so it's not their fault if they want to enough. Yeah, 194 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: you know, it's like that Jurassic Park line they did 195 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: gold Whom Has Life? I think it's narcissism finds a 196 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: way actually what you really meant. I believe that's the case. Surprise, surprise, 197 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: men are more narcissistic than women, probably surprising nobody. According 198 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: to the d s M four tr narcissistic personality disorder 199 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: is diagnosed in between two percent and six of the 200 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: population in clinical settings between point five to one percent 201 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: of the general population. The d s M four t 202 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: R proceeds to tell us that most narcissist of all patients. 203 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: Now this that actually corresponds with the overall research around 204 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: narcissistic behavior. The Journal of Psychological Bulls and Study compelled 205 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: thirty one years of narcissism research and found that men 206 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: consistently scored higher in narcissism across multiple generations, regardless of age. Quote. 207 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: Narcissism is associated with various interpersonal dysfunctions, including an inability 208 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: to maintain healthy, long term relationships, on ethical behavior and 209 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: aggressive says lead author Emily Gravola, PhD, Assistant Professor of 210 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: Organization and Human Resources in the UB School of Management. 211 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 1: At the same time, narcissism is found a show boosts 212 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: of self esteem, emotional stability, and the tendency to emerge 213 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: as a leader. She says, by examining gender differences in narcissism, 214 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: we may be able to explain gender disparities in these 215 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: important outcomes, probably surprising nobody. This study basically found that 216 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: when it comes to things like feeling entitled, which are 217 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: connected to narcissism, men score a lot higher than women. 218 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: The researchers examined more than three hundred journals, articles, dissertations, manuscripts, 219 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: and technical manuals, and the gender differences in three aspects 220 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 1: of narcissism, leadership and authority, grandiose and exhibitionism, and entitlement. 221 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: They found the widest gap and entitlement, suggesting that men 222 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: are more likely than women to exploit others and feel 223 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: entitled to certain privileges. So basically, men be privileged and entitled, 224 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: and that's why they're so narcissistic. Is that what it 225 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: boils down to. That's that's really like like too long 226 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,719 Speaker 1: didn't read men are privileged and thus But I think 227 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: it's interesting because when I was doing this research, I 228 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: feel like common knowledge would be that a, women are narcissists. Women, 229 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: you know, I think they're so great, Like women are 230 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: put on a pedestal. Like I think the common attitude 231 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: seems to suggest that women are more narcissistic than men, 232 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: But the research does not bear that out at all. Right, 233 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: It's interesting how many times we're finding that as we 234 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: research topics where it's seen as I don't know, women 235 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: are more more emotional, But it doesn't. Research doesn't seem 236 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: to bear that out either. It's just these things we've 237 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 1: sort of told ourselves so much that we have accepted 238 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: accepted them to be true. And according to Jeffrey Klueger, 239 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 1: who wrote The Narcissist next Door, basically he says that 240 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: society sort of is okay with narcissism from men. That 241 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: was like with a lot of things, same way that like, 242 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 1: when men are aggressive at work, it seems like that's 243 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: a good thing, but if a woman does it, it's 244 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: a bad thing. When a man is a narcissist, we 245 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: are much more okay with it and much more likely 246 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: to accept it than we are with planning. According to Clugger, right, 247 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: this becomes especially difficult to navigate when your parent is 248 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: a narcissist, which is what we want to focus on 249 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: after this quick break and we're back. Thank you. Sponsor 250 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: from the Washington Post quote children don't offer the type 251 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: of continuous positive feedback narcissist crave and narcissist parents tend 252 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: to react in one of two ways. Dervasula and W. 253 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: Keith Campbell, a professor of psychology at University of Georgia 254 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: and an expert on narcissism, say, some lose interest in 255 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: their children entirely and look for other sources of validation. 256 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: Others view their children as a reflection of themselves and 257 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: become hyper involved and controlling. In both cases, disconnection is 258 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: the key. Even the overly involved narcissistic parent is emotionally 259 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: detached and lacks warmth. Yeah, narcissistic parents are exclusively and 260 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: possessively close to their children and maybe especially envious of 261 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: and threatened by their child's growing independence. The result, maybe 262 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: when it's been termed a pattern of narcissistic attachment, with 263 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: the child considered to exist solely to fulfill a parent's 264 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: wishes and needs. And what makes me so sad about 265 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: that is this idea that if you're a child of 266 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: a narcissistic parent, you only feel loved if you exhibit 267 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: behaviors that your parent can take pride in, and that 268 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: you only exist as a reflection of your parents. You 269 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: don't have your own sense of self as an independent 270 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: person adult or otherwise, you just feel like you're just 271 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: like your parents, leg or something, that you only exist 272 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: as a offshoot of your parent, and that your your 273 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: entire existence is based around making them look good, making 274 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: them feel fulfilled, making them feel valid and worthy, which 275 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: is so sad and messed up. Yeah, it's you'll never 276 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: satisfy that parent. You will never be enough for that parent, 277 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: and that is so hard for a child to understand. Commonly, 278 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: parents attempt to force their children to treat themselves as 279 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: though they are the parents puppets, or else be subject 280 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: to punishment such as emotional abuse. Personal boundaries are often 281 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: disregarded with the goal of molding and manipulating the child 282 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: to satisfy the parents expectations. So something I found so 283 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: telling in the research around boundaries is that parents who 284 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: are narcissists do not like it when their children have 285 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: boundaries with them. Their ultimate goal is to sort of 286 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: be the person in charge of how their child interacts 287 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: with the world. And something I found really telling was 288 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: that when a lot of adult children of narcissists try 289 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: to put boundaries in place, they might react as if 290 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: these boundaries are unacceptable. But in most cases where there 291 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: is a narcissistic parent, there is a clear boundary that 292 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: the parent understands, and that is that the child is 293 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: not supposed to tell others what is going on in 294 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: this household. Right, And so it's an illust ration to 295 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: the fact that these parents are completely willing to understand 296 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: boundaries when those boundaries benefit them, but when it comes 297 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: to their child putting up normal, healthy boundaries to protect 298 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: their own well being, it seems like boundaries are completely unacceptable. 299 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: Right when I was reading through all this research, I 300 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: kept thinking, how often we see this in media. I 301 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: was just example after example of movie or TV show 302 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 1: with a narcissistic parent, And what you were just talking 303 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: about reminds me of right away of Black Swan with 304 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: Natalie Portman and her she's living in that apartment with 305 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: her mom and in the movie she's like twenty six, 306 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: but her mom is so controlling and kind of using 307 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: Nina as a puppet to become the ballerina that she 308 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: never got to because she got pregnant with Nina. Oh 309 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: my god, let me tell you, like, there's nothing like 310 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: like I could talk all day, but I will just 311 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: say this, if you are a child of a parent 312 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: like that, where your role is to sort of fulfill 313 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: this destiny that your parent never fulfilled, and maybe they 314 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: didn't fulfill because of your birth or your or like 315 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: they had to provide for you there is no winning. Like, 316 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: even if Nina was the best ballerina, the skinniest, the prettiest, 317 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: the top of her field, if her mother is like 318 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,719 Speaker 1: an empty well of need, there's there's just no filling it. 319 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 1: Like it doesn't matter how good she is. It is 320 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: a losing game that she cannot win. Right, And there's 321 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: this scene where Nina is trying to like lock her 322 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: mom out because she has no locks on her door 323 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: and her mom just bust in all the time, so 324 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,479 Speaker 1: she like puts a piece of wood so that her 325 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: mom can't get in, And that just reminds me very 326 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: much of this whole discussion about boundaries and how her 327 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: her in the movie, her mom got so angry with her, 328 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: like why are you doing this? How dare you trying 329 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: to keep me out of your room? Yeah, that regines me. 330 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: I mean I really connected with that movie and like 331 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, like we weren't allowed to 332 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: have we didn't have locks on our wars. The movie 333 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: does not explore this, but when I was watching that scene, 334 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: I remember thinking that there is a cultural point to 335 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: be made there because a lot of families of you know, 336 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: first generation immigrants or people of color, like the idea 337 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: of family boundaries that is made to seem like something 338 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: that is very unusual. Right, So if you were to 339 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: be like, oh, I need a lot, I need my privacy, Like, 340 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: privacy is not a thing that a lot of children 341 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: of immigrants were really given, particularly when they were young. 342 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: But even if you were an adult or like nearing adulthood, 343 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: living in your in the house of your parents, privacy 344 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: is not something that is commonly given. So, yeah, I 345 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: grew up thinking that my white friends who had some 346 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: expectation of privacy, some expectation of being able to have 347 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: an inner world of their own, that was that their 348 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: that their family was not privy to. I grew up 349 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: thinking that was the wildest thing in the world, Like, 350 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: I've never heard of such a thing. And it wasn't 351 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: until I got older than I realized, Oh, it doesn't 352 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: matter who you are, what cultural background you come from, 353 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 1: It's okay to have boundaries. It's okay to have an 354 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: expectation of privacy, particularly as you reach adulthood. You're not 355 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: ungrateful if you want to lock your door sometimes to 356 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: get to get a moment to yourself. You're not ungrateful 357 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: if you want to put up a healthy boundary to 358 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: protect your own inner sense of who you are. I 359 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: grew up thinking I think a lot of folks might 360 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: identify with this. I heard thinking that if you put 361 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,959 Speaker 1: up a boundary around you and family, that you were 362 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: a bad person, that you were ungrateful. And it wasn't 363 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: until I was an adult that I realized, Oh, boundaries 364 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: are healthy. And when you put up boundaries, even between 365 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: people that you love and that you're close to, it 366 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: helps you relate to the world at large in a 367 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: healthier way. Because if you grew up in a in 368 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: a life where like you don't deserve boundaries, anyone can 369 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: take advantage of you. You You just you just become someone 370 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: who just exists. You only function to please others, and 371 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: that's not healthy. This is a tangent, but you wouldn't 372 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. Yes, and this it reminds me 373 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: of when I was I don't know, probably taking French 374 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: and Spanish and high school. There's always a section about 375 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: the differences between family and I remember reading and I 376 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: would love for people from Europe to write in about this, 377 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: But I would remember reading a section in the book 378 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: like and France, you don't go up to your room 379 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: and close your door. They'll think something's wrong with you 380 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: and you're sick. And I was like, oh, okay, it 381 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 1: was in my textbook, so please write in if that 382 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: is the case. But we should get back to talking 383 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: about narcissism. Your point about black Swan actually really does 384 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: correspond with the research. Carol McBride's a famous book, Will 385 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: I Ever Be Good Enough? Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic 386 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: Mothers points out that daughters who tend to face particular 387 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: difficulties with narcissistic mothers in part because their mother often 388 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: sees them as competition. She writes, a narcissistic mother sees 389 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: her daughter more than her son, as a reflection and 390 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: extension of herself, rather than a separate person with her 391 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: own identity. So really, I mean black Swan really demonstrates 392 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: that very well, that knee to her only way to 393 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: function is as a part of her mother. That she 394 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: doesn't she's not able to have her own identity that 395 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: you need to have as an adult. Yes, and when 396 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: things get really bad, it's a form of abuse. Quote. 397 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: Narcissistic abuse takes place when in the midst of a 398 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: narcissistic presentation the narcissist chronically places his or her needs 399 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: and sense of self worth well above those of others, 400 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: willing to harm another in the process. And that is 401 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: a quote from John Duffy, license clinical psychologist and author 402 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: of The Available Parent, and he told that to Self magazine. 403 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: So one of the things that I found really awful 404 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 1: and telling is how narcissistic behavior can really tear a 405 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: part of family and leave a black hole where healthy 406 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: family interactions should be. One hallmark of how narcissistic families 407 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: behave is that a narcissistic parent will commonly choose one 408 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: or sometimes more children to be the sort of golden child, 409 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: and then another to be the scapegoat. The narcisis identifies 410 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 1: with the golden child and provides privileges to him or 411 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: her as long as the golden child does as she wants. 412 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: The golden child has to be cared for and everyone 413 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: in the family. The scapegoat, by comparison, has no needs 414 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: and gets to be the one that does all the caring. 415 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: The golden child can do no wrong, and the scapegoat 416 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: is always at fault, and this could of creates a 417 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: natural tension where the golden child and the narcissistic parents 418 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: are on one side, and they all sort of think 419 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: the narcissistic parent is so great, and they're all sort 420 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: of like inca hoots and the scapegoat, the person who 421 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: is not the golden child, is on the outside, and 422 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: it just is so isolating and sort of just makes 423 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: you feel if you are the scapegoat, it just makes 424 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: you feel crazy and isolated from your own family. So 425 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: I just really struck by how narcissistic behavior can really 426 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: poison other family dynamics and relationships, just that one person 427 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: can like ruin an entire family dynamic. Yeah, and this 428 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: on a like kind of humorous note reminds me of 429 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: Friends and Monica and Ross their parents and that the 430 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: whole relationship because Ros could do no wrong and Monica 431 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: was constantly just letting her parents down and they were 432 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: kind of pitted against each other in that way. And 433 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: there's a whole episode about when they sort of realize 434 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: that that dynamic has been going on, I think in 435 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: season one, so it's pretty early, sucdressed pretty early, But yeah, 436 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: I can tear a part of family, and a lot 437 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: of times you might not even realize what's going on exactly, 438 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: and you probably would just live thinking, Yeah, my family 439 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: and I have a weird dynamic, and I feel isolated, 440 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: and I feel like a black sheep, and I see 441 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: my sibling getting along gray with my family and not 442 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: sort of realized that you might internalize that as something 443 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: wrong with you, and not realize that it's actually a 444 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: really toxic and manipulative family dynamic being driven by an 445 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: unhealthy person. Yeah. In the Washington Post piece, one adult 446 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: child of a narcissist says she feels like she spent 447 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: her formative years wearing a mask of the person her 448 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: mom wanted her to be. Jennifer Doeg's mother was a 449 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: classic narcissist, alternately abandoning her and expecting her to hold 450 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: the household together, and now, as an adult with children 451 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: of her own, doing still struggles to carve a path 452 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 1: separate from her mother's expectations. I feel like I've worn 453 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: a mask my entire life, she says. I need to 454 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: be who I am, and I don't even know who 455 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,719 Speaker 1: that is. And that's a hard place to be when 456 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: you're forty one years old. I think her story really 457 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,239 Speaker 1: illustrates how hard it can be to be raised by 458 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: a narcissist and then start your own family. Because if 459 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: you've been if you've been told your entire life, the 460 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: living that matters in your entire existence is how you 461 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 1: reflect on me. How do you know who you are? 462 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: How do you shepherd your kids into establishing healthy boundaries 463 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: and relationships with others? It's probably very, very difficult. Yeah. 464 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: And another woman who was raised by a narcissist, Sarah Shaw. 465 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: She says her mother focused on her appearance and wait 466 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: intensely and groomed her from early childhood to marry a 467 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: rich man. And when Shaw was in the hospital with 468 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: a brain injury and a broken neck and back after 469 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: being hit by a car, her mother's top priority was 470 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 1: Shaw's appearance. One of the first things she did was 471 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: call my hairdresser because my hair was a mess Shawa Claus. 472 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: This was before they even knew I was going to 473 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: live or die. But what was really sick about the 474 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: whole thing was the whole time I was thinking, maybe 475 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: now my mother will love me because she almost lost me. 476 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: That's so sad and also probably relates to this idea 477 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: of mothers and daughters narcissism playing out in a kind 478 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 1: of competitive way where like hyper obsession about looks to 479 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: that level has to be some sort of real, sort 480 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: of I'm competitive about your looks or looks very important 481 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: to me that I want you to look good so 482 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: that I can look good. Like it's just this mixed 483 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: bag of toughness. Yeah, and again, I feel like that's 484 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: something we see over and over in media, the mother 485 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: who's always harping at the daughter to to lose weight, 486 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: or to do something about her hair, or to get 487 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: a better fashion sense. I just I feel like we 488 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: see that all the time. Yeah, I'm seeing a lot 489 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: of shadows in my own experience in these stories. Were 490 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: like I grew up in a house where you had 491 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: to look your best all the time. And I remember 492 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: when I would go to college, when I would come 493 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: home after finals, and you know, you have finals, you're 494 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: you're always like in sweatpants, you haven't showered, you're looking 495 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: at mess. When I would come home for a break 496 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: after finals, sometimes I would I would purposely not come 497 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: home because I didn't want to hear it about Oh, 498 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: like you couldn't get your mails done, you couldn't get 499 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: your hair done. And I'm like, when when I have 500 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: done that, I've been in finals, you know, and I 501 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: see myself sort of exhibiting a little bit of that 502 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: behavior as an adult, where if I'm not able to 503 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 1: like get YadA YadA YadA done, I'm like, oh, well, 504 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,959 Speaker 1: I guess I just won't. You know. I find myself 505 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 1: isolating myself socially if I don't look a certain way, 506 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: and I think that's definitely because of things that were 507 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 1: imparted on me as a child that were very important. 508 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: It was you didn't leave the house if you didn't 509 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: look a certain way. And you know, I think when 510 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: kids internalize that their self worth is in their way, 511 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,959 Speaker 1: their hair, their looks, they're this, they're that. If they 512 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: internalize with their self worth is in things other than 513 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: who they are, I think that stuff that sticks with 514 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: them forever, Like that sticks with you until you're an adult. 515 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: If it doesn't go away when you grow up, it 516 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: just becomes stuff you grapple with in adulthood. Yeah, just 517 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: being able to realize that that is something that you're 518 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: grappling with is it's a huge step. So hopefully this 519 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 1: will help some people. Being raised by a narcissists can 520 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,479 Speaker 1: impact adult children. Those raised by narcissists have higher than 521 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: average rates of depression and anxiety, lack of self regulation, 522 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: eating disorders, blow self esteem, an impaired sense of self, 523 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: substance abuse, and perfectionism. Yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all. 524 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: We have a tendency to think that children, you know, 525 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: stuff just goes over their heads or grow out of it. 526 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: They're not going to remember this, but they really do. 527 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: I mean, these things don't go away, they just become 528 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: things we have to talk about in therapy when we're 529 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: an adult. You know, It's just like, it's so important 530 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: to raise your kid and a nurturing home where they 531 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: understand that they are valued for who they are, even 532 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: if who they are does not reflect well on you, 533 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: even if who they are it's complicated and messy and 534 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: confused and moody and blah blah blah and gets these 535 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: in school. Understanding that you are accepted in love by 536 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: your family is so important. And again, when people talk 537 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,719 Speaker 1: about how they feel growing up with the parents of narcissists, 538 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: it's feeling like they only are loved for how they 539 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: can reflect well and their parents, not for who they are. 540 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: That's a terrible way for a kid to feel. Yes, 541 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: and as of now, there isn't a ton of research 542 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: or studying being done about the kids of people with 543 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: m p D. The impact of being raised by a 544 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: narcissist isn't well documented on an individual level, and it's 545 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: been even less studied on a societal scale. Campbell has 546 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: written more than one scientific articles and three books about 547 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: the narcissism epidemic, but he admits parenting is a gaping 548 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: whole in our understanding of narcissism. We rarely study the 549 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: parents narcissism and then predict what will happen to the kids, 550 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: says W. Keith Campbell, who is a professor of psychology 551 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: at University of Georgia and an expert on narcissism. So 552 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: to deal with this lack of real information about how 553 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: these kids, you know, grow up to be impacted by 554 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: their narcissistic parents, a lot of folks are turning to 555 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: the internet. And we'll talk more about that after this 556 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: pick break and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So, as 557 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: we said earlier, there isn't really a ton of studying 558 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: and research being done on the children of parents who 559 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: are narcissistic. But you know, these children will grow up 560 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: and they start searching for answers, and a lot of 561 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: folks have found answers on online communities. The subreddit raised 562 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: by Narcissist has two hundred seventy seven thousand members and 563 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: I loved on at ten am and at that time 564 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: there were almost two thousand members online. So it's an 565 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: active community. If you log on at various times, like 566 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: it's the there's always someone there reading or posting or both. Yeah, 567 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: and the subrod it was established because there was a 568 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: recognized need for a space where children raised by abusive 569 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: parents who got or are getting away with it could 570 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: relate to one another and discuss the issues, says a moderator, 571 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: Ash Williams, who is twenty four. Yeah, and I think 572 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: what's so important to point out about this subredit is 573 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,719 Speaker 1: kind of what I mentioned before. I think a lot 574 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: of people who grow up in abusive or toxic or 575 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: family situations. I think a hallmark of it is silence 576 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: and shame. And it's growing up not inviting friends over 577 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: because you just you just can't. You don't know what 578 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: it's going to be like, and so you just don't 579 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: do that. It's growing up feeling isolated. It's growing up 580 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: when someone asks you about your family, changing the subject, 581 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: and then just sort of like knowing that there's this 582 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: thing inside of you but you're not allowed to talk about. 583 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: I think that when you grow up in a messed up, 584 00:31:55,120 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: dysfunctional household, it doesn't matter how successful or happy, go lucky, 585 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: or while adjusted you present. I think there's always this 586 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,959 Speaker 1: little nagging thing inside of you that says, you're not okay, 587 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: you're a garbage person. Look where you came from, Look 588 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: what your family is like, Like, you're so dysfunctional. You 589 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: sort of carry that around with you all the time. 590 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: And I think that when you are in an abusive 591 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: family situation or a toxic or dysfunctional family situation, you 592 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: just are trained cannot talk about it. You're trained, I'm 593 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: not telling anyone, You're trained to put on a happy face. 594 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: And I think these are the reason why these online 595 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: communities of resonate is because you can finally talk about 596 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: it and realize, oh, like, my family is dysfunctional, but 597 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: it's not dysfunctional in some way that's completely out of 598 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: the ordinary. In fact, it follows a textbook working definition 599 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: of of X y Z pathology. I think that's I 600 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: think there's a real power in realizing that you're not alone, 601 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: and that even if you internalize that you can't talk 602 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: about these things, you can and there are other people 603 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,959 Speaker 1: out there who are dealing with them and have you know, 604 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: best at them and have moved out or whatever. Other 605 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: people are found ways of coping and you can't do. 606 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: People report finding this subwridit raised by narcissists, and it's 607 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: being shocked and thinking, oh my god, this whole time 608 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: I thought my family was just really stuff and I 609 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: was stuff and like all of that, and then realizing, oh, 610 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: it's not me, it's this person, it's this dynamic, it's 611 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: this psychosis or whatever. Yeah, and you aren't the only 612 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: one who sees the value in offering this safe space 613 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,959 Speaker 1: for people with narcissistic parents. From Duffy, He says children 614 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: of narcissists can benefit greatly from the support of other 615 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: kids suffering similar circumstances, and forms like this can be 616 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: great stress relievers, and doctor of psychology Eliza Ruby Bash 617 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: family and marriage therapist, agrees. She says usually children whose 618 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: parents are narcissist or have MPD have lots of personal 619 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: issues and trauma. It can be so refreshing for anyone 620 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: to express their family drama and feel connection with others 621 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: who have experienced similar things. Yeah, and I think it's 622 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: so empowered orrying to know that you can tap into 623 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: a community of folks who are all dealing with this. 624 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: Some of the people who post on that subreddit are 625 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: adults who have long moved away and gotten married and 626 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: started families, who are still working through their trauma and 627 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: their issues with a narcissistic parent. And some of them 628 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: are young people who are living at home, were in 629 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: high school or middle school, who are looking for, you know, 630 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: assurance that there's life out there outside of this dysfunction. 631 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: And honestly, it really can be this like special way 632 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: that young people who are dealing with this, or people 633 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: who are still living at home who are dealing with 634 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 1: this can see other people who have moved out and 635 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: started families blah blah blah, to see that they that 636 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: they can also get past it and move on with 637 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: their lives. And there are different ways of doing it, 638 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: like you can you know, you don't have that you're 639 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: not going to be stuck in that situation forever. Yeah, 640 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: and while they're a wonderful piece of dealing with a 641 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,919 Speaker 1: narcissistic parent, it is important to note that they can't 642 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: replace working with an actual mental health professional. Both Duffie 643 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: and Bash caution anyone from using an online forum as 644 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 1: their single source of healing. As Duffie explains, my concern 645 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: with forms like this is that they are typically not 646 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: regulated by qualified and mental health professional. Only an expert 647 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: can be well an expert helping someone to cope with 648 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: a loved one who has a serious disorders such as 649 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: impauty exactly. But they also point out that therapy and 650 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: online communities can kind of work together effectively. One member 651 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: of the subredit says that they actually find that the 652 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: skills they learn in therapy sessions are reinforced by the 653 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: posts on that subredit, So if their therapist says do 654 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: x y Z, oftentimes they find those messages and those 655 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: coping skills reinforced on the subreddit. So it could kind 656 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: of work together, work in tandem. But it's important to 657 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: note that you know a subreddit is not a replacement 658 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: or actual mental health professionals you know being involved. Sure, 659 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: if listening to this you think maybe your parents might 660 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: have mp D, here are some questions from psychology today 661 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 1: that can help you sess out whether or not your 662 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: parent is a narcissist. When you discuss your life issues 663 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: with your mother, does she divert the discussion to talk 664 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: about herself. When you discuss your feelings with your mother, 665 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,879 Speaker 1: does she try to top the feeling with her own 666 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: Does your mother like empathy for your feelings? Does your 667 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: mother only support those things that you do that reflect 668 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: on her as a quote good mother. Have you consistently 669 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,919 Speaker 1: felt a lack of emotional closeness with your mother? Does 670 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: your mother only do things for you when others can 671 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 1: see When something happens in your life, like accident, illness, 672 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: or divorce. Does your mother react with how it will 673 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: affect her rather than how you feel? Is there was 674 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: your mother overly conscious of what others think, neighbor's, family, friends, coworkers. 675 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: Does your mother blame things on you or others rather 676 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: than own responsibility for her own feelings or actions? Is 677 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: there was your mother hurt easily and then cares a 678 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: grudge for a long time without resolving the problem. Do 679 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: you feel your mother knows the real you? Did you 680 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: feel you had to take care of your mother's emotional 681 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: needs as a child. Do you find it difficult to 682 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: be a separate person from your mother. Do you feel 683 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: valued by your mother for what you do rather than 684 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: who you are? So I should point out that even 685 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: though this particular article pertained to mother's, any parent, anybody 686 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: can be a narcissist. So you know, you can replace 687 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: that with parent. But again, if you're listening to those 688 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: questions that you think, boy, that sounds like my relationship 689 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: with my mom or my dad, it could be that 690 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: you're not just ungrateful, you're not just a bad child. 691 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: Maybe you're actually being kind of manipulated into thinking that 692 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: you're terrible because your parent is a narcissist. Like, maybe 693 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: that's what's going on. Even if you've internalized that it's 694 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,439 Speaker 1: your fault, maybe it's not. Yeah, and if you're dealing 695 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: with a narcissistic parent, we do have some tips for you. 696 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: The first one being talked to a professional if that 697 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: is an option open to you, because just like a 698 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: subreddit is super helpful, it's it's only a piece this 699 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: podcast that you're listening to. We're not professionals. We're hopefully 700 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: a piece of having the information and tools you need 701 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,279 Speaker 1: to to help, or just a piece. So if if 702 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: you think that perhaps you have a narcissistic parent, and 703 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: talking to a professional is something that is an option 704 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 1: for you. Absolutely, go do it. Another thing I found 705 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: really fascinating that I had never heard before is watch 706 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: out for becoming a co narcissist. Basically, according to Dr 707 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: Alan rathapport, people who become co narcissists because they have 708 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: been raised around a narcissist, and they've been raised to 709 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: make this person happy, fulfill this other person's needs emotional, 710 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: and otherwise, you just sort of become someone who that's 711 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: your default setting, it's just pleasing others, and you sort 712 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: of completely lose your sense of self. He says that 713 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 1: co narcissistic people, as a result of their attempts to 714 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: get along with our narcissistic parents, worked hard to please others, 715 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: defer to others opinions, worry about how others think and 716 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: feel about them, and are often depressed or anxious. They 717 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: find it hard to know their own views and experiences 718 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: and take the blame for interpersonal problems. And so if 719 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: you find yourself becoming someone who just by default loses 720 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: your own sense of self, your own identity, and yourn 721 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: opinions like watch out with that, that can be a 722 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 1: function of growing up with someone who's a narcissist. Another 723 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: tip that we touched on earlier is establishing boundaries. Remember 724 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: that you are allowed to have your own life and 725 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: your own needs, and that is something that a narcissistic 726 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: parent won't understand. Yeah, boundaries are very important. Also understand 727 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,280 Speaker 1: the difference between conditional and unconditional love. The Counseling Directory 728 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: recommends that one of the main ways that daughters can 729 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: heal from a narcissistic mother is to quote recognize the 730 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: internalized messages of conditional love and the effects of your 731 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: love life and relationships, both with others and yourself. Basically, 732 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 1: conditional love is affection and love that you get only 733 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: when you demonstrate some sort of behavior that pleases a narcissist, 734 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: and if you don't demonstrate that behavior, it seems as 735 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: if you're not worthy of affection. Conversely, unconditional love you 736 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 1: know you have it no matter how you are, if 737 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 1: you're you know, up or down, fad or skinny, good 738 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,280 Speaker 1: or bad. You know doesn't matter if you are doing 739 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 1: the things that make someone else feel good and look 740 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,359 Speaker 1: good at a firm them. You are love for who 741 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: you are and conditionally and I think when you are 742 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: raised by a narcissist, it is hard to understand that 743 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: that is something that you are worthy of, That you 744 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 1: are worthy of having someone in your life who loves 745 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: you unconditionally. But you are and that you should work 746 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: to find it. Yeah, and if you need to cut 747 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,359 Speaker 1: off contact or go low contact, that's okay. It's it's 748 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: hard to do you sometimes, but it's okay, And you 749 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: need to consider your own your own health and well being. Yeah, 750 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:52,839 Speaker 1: when looking at some of the ways that folks are 751 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 1: coping on raised by narcissists, and it's very surprised to 752 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 1: see that they have all different kinds of spectrums. It's 753 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,240 Speaker 1: not just cut your parents out of your life forever 754 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: or be a victim of their abuse forever. You can 755 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,439 Speaker 1: go low contact where you where you talk to them. 756 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes you can have contact that is purposefully you know, surface, 757 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: where you just talk about boring things like laundry and 758 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: the weather, so that you can't really engage your parents 759 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: narcissistic tendencies. Um, there are all different kinds of relationships 760 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: that you can maintain with with somebody was toxic in 761 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: your life. If you don't feel like you can cut 762 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,759 Speaker 1: them off entirely. But if you feel like cutting them 763 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: off entirely, that's that's a completely reasonable, you know, reasonable 764 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: thing to do. If you feel like this person is 765 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: never going to change and that you can no longer 766 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 1: subject yourself to this, to this sort of negativity and toxicity, 767 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: if that's your outcome, that is okay. Like, I don't 768 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 1: feel if you say that enough that it's okay if 769 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: you have to be like, listen, I love you and 770 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 1: I'll always love you, but I just can't have you 771 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 1: in my life like this, that's okay. Yes, that is 772 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: certainly something I didn't hear until I was older. I 773 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: didn't even kind realized that was an option, the thing 774 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: that you could do, And it absolutely is, and sometimes 775 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: it's the best option to take. Absolutely. That brings us 776 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 1: to the end of this episode on on narcissism and 777 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 1: narcissist and to listener, Mail Conrad wrote, I want to 778 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: contribute my perspective on toxic masculinity as a highly sensitive 779 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 1: person and a person on the autism spectrum. Content warning 780 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: for physical and emotional stress from buelling. My experience of 781 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,280 Speaker 1: being on the spectrum has been a lifetime of hyper 782 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: sensitivity to my emotions and to external stimuli, an extreme 783 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: interest and emotional and meaningful storytelling, and a complete lack 784 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: of interest in being stoic, are competitive, are playing rough, 785 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,360 Speaker 1: are sometimes being social at all. I much preferred to 786 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 1: read Aragon fan fiction in tenth grade then go out 787 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,360 Speaker 1: for pizza because books were predictable, they were explicit, and 788 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: they didn't kick me out for being weird. Looking back 789 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 1: on the beginning of my time in school among other boys, 790 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,720 Speaker 1: there was rampant homophobia, avert aggression, and hatred of anything 791 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,840 Speaker 1: feminine from the very start. Being highly sensitive, it was 792 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: exhausting to fake being this masculine, stoic, tough boy who 793 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,280 Speaker 1: didn't cry and didn't like smelling the flowers, and certainly 794 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: didn't like to read Nancy Drew in fourth grade tougher 795 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: than for most I gather, but the consequences of being 796 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 1: seen as sensitive or weird by my peers is so 797 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 1: immediate and so harsh that I kept trying to be 798 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 1: like the other, less sensitive boys, even though it hurts 799 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,760 Speaker 1: so much to fake. I haven't thought about my elementary 800 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,879 Speaker 1: in high school years in a while. They are tough 801 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 1: time to think about. Since leaving high school, I have 802 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: spent the past five years trying to undo all those 803 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: toxic ideas I learned, starting with homophobia and transphobia. I 804 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 1: had to teach myself how to acquire enthusiastic in ongoing 805 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 1: consent at nineteen years old, something no one in my 806 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: family or friends had bothered to teach me, and something 807 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 1: I hadn't learned because I learned differently than most people. 808 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: Star Trek taught me the most about being feminists, starting 809 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: with just how many different beautiful ways there are to 810 00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:59,879 Speaker 1: live a good life and how to make my own 811 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: decisions independent of other people. Dax Data in sevent of 812 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: nine are some of my favorite characters. Each of them 813 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:07,719 Speaker 1: is trying to make sense of who they are and 814 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 1: how to best live life true to themselves. I'm trying 815 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,399 Speaker 1: to do the same, one day at a time. Thanks 816 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: for making the podcast from one bad feminist to another. 817 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,919 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Conrad. That was a beautiful letter 818 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: to receive and we're so happy to get it and 819 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,880 Speaker 1: to to read about your experience. Nicole wrote, this is 820 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,359 Speaker 1: a really late email to this podcast episode, but at 821 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,799 Speaker 1: the end I remember Annie and Bridget asking about what 822 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: are other options for neighborhood dispute resolution besides calling the police, 823 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,280 Speaker 1: and Philadelphia the Philadelphia Commissioned on Human Relations, the agency 824 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: that enforces the city's anti discrimination laws, has a unit 825 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 1: called Community Relations Division that works to mediate disputes between neighbors. 826 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: The city has divided into neighborhoods that are managed by 827 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: a really talented group of experienced mediators who work closely 828 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,279 Speaker 1: with the residents to assist neighbors and resolving disputes without 829 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: the police. Oftentimes, Community Relations is called by the police 830 00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,840 Speaker 1: after this neighbor dispute has arisen, because the dispute is 831 00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,640 Speaker 1: not necessarily in the jurisdiction or pure view of the police. 832 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: I hope this is helpful and provides a resource for 833 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 1: more information and how the city is trying to not 834 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,319 Speaker 1: have people call the police for every little thing, even 835 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: though I know it's still happening. Um. I love this. 836 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: I think it's really cool to know that other cities, 837 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: which is clearly a city as big as Philadelphia, does 838 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: have a resource for this resolving disputes between neighbors and 839 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,880 Speaker 1: community members that doesn't involve someone with a gun showing 840 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,239 Speaker 1: up right that it's a way to mediate these things 841 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,319 Speaker 1: a little bit less you know, but there's no need 842 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: to call nine one one over over a law dispute 843 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: or something, right, So I love this. Thank you so 844 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,799 Speaker 1: much for writing in. Yes, thanks to both of them 845 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 1: for writing in. If you'd like to write to us, 846 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 1: you can. Our email is mom Stuff at Hustaforks dot 847 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: com and you always find us on social media or 848 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: on Instagram at stuff Bob Ever Told You and on 849 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,640 Speaker 1: Twitter Mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our producers, 850 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,720 Speaker 1: Dylan Facan and Cathaine Killian, and thanks to you for listening. 851 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 1: Two