Speaker 1: In the last episode we heard a conversation with suspect
Speaker 1: Jack Lney. I must admit my gaze is turned toward him.
Speaker 1: But before continuing down that path, I needed to look
Speaker 1: into another rather infamous serial killer who could potentially have
Speaker 1: been tied to the murders of Dana Stidham and Shauna Garber,
Speaker 1: one who was active at the time in the area.
Speaker 1: At another point in the podcast, you heard about a
Speaker 1: witness reporting a white van parked behind Dana Stidham's car
Speaker 1: during the early evening hours after she left Phillip's grocery.
Speaker 1: Two men were seen standing behind or near her car
Speaker 1: and that van. In January twenty twenty four, I learned
Speaker 1: from a law enforcement source that a white van had
Speaker 1: been connected to Shauna Garber's mind as well. It was
Speaker 1: part of an interview solving Shawna's case after thirty plus years,
Speaker 1: which will impact soon. That van park behind Dana's carr
Speaker 1: plagued my thoughts, bringing to mind one very specific high
Speaker 1: profile psychopath, Larry Dwayne Hall. Hall is a serial killer,
Speaker 1: yet he's rare and that he's never been convicted of
Speaker 1: a murder. One university study on Hall claims he could
Speaker 1: be responsible for upwards of fifty or more abductions, rapes,
Speaker 1: and murders. The guy is doing life for the kidnapping
Speaker 1: of fifteen year old Jessica Roach and transporting her from
Speaker 1: Illinois to Indiana for purposes of sexual gratification, The subject
Speaker 1: of the Apple TV Plus drama Blackbird, Larry Hall was
Speaker 1: arrested in October nineteen ninety four and has been in
Speaker 1: prison ever since. With his mutton choped sideburns and backwoods
Speaker 1: Gomer Pyle like persona, Hall spent a considerable amount of
Speaker 1: time behind the wheel of his light colored van, trolling
Speaker 1: for victims throughout the Midwest and South during the late
Speaker 1: eighties and early nineties. He claimed his extensive travel was
Speaker 1: centered around the Civil War reenactments he participated in. Hall
Speaker 1: often traveled with a man he was very close to,
Speaker 1: a co conspirator in many of his crimes. Larry Hall's
Speaker 1: method of abduction is very similar to what we saw
Speaker 1: in Dana Stidham's case, and, according to some new information
Speaker 1: I've received, the kidnapping and murder of SHAWNA. Garber. Hall
Speaker 1: often tooled around suburban neighborhoods in his creepy van, following
Speaker 1: women riding bikes, jogging, or walking, then grabbing them just
Speaker 1: the right moment. A young woman alone with her car
Speaker 1: broken down on the side of the road would have
Speaker 1: been Hall's ideal situation to strike. Detective Lorie Howard, who
Speaker 1: you've heard throughout the podcast, interviewed Hall a few years
Speaker 1: ago at Buckner Federal Prison in North Carolina.
Speaker 2: I went and talked with Larry Hall, and I actually
Speaker 2: was worried when I talked to him that he might
Speaker 2: say that I did this just because he really wanted
Speaker 2: to please me. You know, I knew when I went
Speaker 2: in there he probably wanted me to stay, and I
Speaker 2: knew that he wanted to talk, so I was kind
Speaker 2: of concerned that he would do just the opposite of
Speaker 2: what happened. I thought he might say, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's she's mine, and I was concerned about that. What
Speaker 2: actually happened is I slid Seans photo across the table
Speaker 2: to him, and he immediately looked at it and he said,
Speaker 2: she's not mine. Said did you kill her? And he said, no,
Speaker 2: she's not mine. So I was surprised. I really was
Speaker 2: concerned that that's not what I would get. So I
Speaker 2: knew immediately that Shawna was not his.
Speaker 1: Hall warmed up to Laurie. He came across polite, talkative,
Speaker 1: and rather open to the idea of discussing crimes he's
Speaker 1: been accused of but has never been charged with. Detective
Speaker 1: Howard pressed Hall on Dana Stidham, considering how the circumstances fit,
Speaker 1: especially that light colored van report and two men lurking around,
Speaker 1: potentially Hall and his partner. It can also not be
Speaker 1: overlooked that Pea Ridge, Arkansas, a Civil War historical site,
Speaker 1: is very close to where Dana's body was found. Hall,
Speaker 1: for his part, denied having any part in Dana's abduction
Speaker 1: and or or murder and said he was not even
Speaker 1: in per Ridge near the time she disappeared. And did
Speaker 1: you believe him?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, yeah. Larry, interestingly enough, has the reputation for
Speaker 2: being a false confessionist, if you will, although I don't
Speaker 2: believe that's the case by any stretch of the imagination,
Speaker 2: but he has that label.
Speaker 1: The thing that nagged at me about Larry Hall and
Speaker 1: Dana's case is that Larry often worked with a partner
Speaker 1: close to him, a guy very close to him, and
Speaker 1: he also drove around in a van. The cliche and
Speaker 1: two guys who could fit Larry's description and as partner
Speaker 1: were seen in back of Dana along with a van
Speaker 1: on the day she disappeared. So that worried me. So
Speaker 1: what did he say about Dana Stidham's case.
Speaker 2: He wasn't anywhere around during that timeframe, he said, I
Speaker 2: wasn't there. There wasn't a re enactment. I actually checked
Speaker 2: all of that, so there was no reason to put
Speaker 2: him in the area at that time frame.
Speaker 1: I've obtained never before heard interviews with Larry Hall and
Speaker 1: delved deeply into his crimes on my other podcast, Crossing
Speaker 1: the Line with m William Phelps, in a two part
Speaker 1: special outlining the monster Larry Hall truly is. You see.
Speaker 1: Hall had a pension for young girls, kids really and
Speaker 1: he stuck mainly to the Midwest, Illinois and Indiana, his
Speaker 1: home state, sometimes even going into Iowa. As you can
Speaker 1: hear in this excerpt from that interview, he also groomed
Speaker 1: some of his victims.
Speaker 3: My friend Steve brought her with him a couple of
Speaker 3: times in the car. She was a friend of mine.
Speaker 3: The Steve's a friend mine named Steve knew her. She
Speaker 3: was only twelve years old. She was missing too. He
Speaker 3: was a little a little bit older than me. I
Speaker 3: met him at a little shopping mall down there by
Speaker 3: eleven in Indiana where the there's a bus. The bus
Speaker 3: has come in sometimes. Now I met her a couple
Speaker 3: of times, but I didn't know her mom or nothing.
Speaker 3: I used to hang out with him in a little
Speaker 3: park down there sometimes. You know, I don't remember. I
Speaker 3: didn't know the last name, but Dabby, I believe that
Speaker 3: I'm not potty. I can't can't probably remember.
Speaker 1: The guy loved to play the ignorant card. But believe me,
Speaker 1: he knew and he remembered all.
Speaker 4: Of his victims.
Speaker 1: These guys, they do not forget. That's one reason why
Speaker 1: they sometimes take trophies, a little reminder of each and
Speaker 1: every one of their victims. As Detective Howard was interviewing Hall,
Speaker 1: he brought up another unsolf case, a big one.
Speaker 2: The other thing is he immediately turned around and told me,
Speaker 2: but I did kill the Springfield three.
Speaker 1: On June seventh, nineteen ninety two, the parents of eighteen
Speaker 1: year old Stacy McCall contacted the Springfield, Missouri Police Department,
Speaker 1: saying their daughter had disappeared from the home a forty
Speaker 1: seven year old Cheryl Leavitt, along with Levitt and Levitt's
Speaker 1: nineteen year old daughter, Suzanne Streeter. Upon officer's arrival, the
Speaker 1: Leavitt house showed no signs a foced entry or a struggle,
Speaker 1: but the three young women were gone, as if plucked
Speaker 1: out of their lives in the middle of a normal day.
Speaker 1: All their personal property had been left behind, purses, clothing, money, cars, keys, cigarettes,
Speaker 1: even the family dog. None of them were ever seen again.
Speaker 2: And that I had reason to believe there might be
Speaker 2: some validity to and I say that knowing that it's
Speaker 2: not my case beyond what he told me. But I
Speaker 2: know in his van there was evidence that had a
Speaker 2: map that had this area that had Branson that had
Speaker 2: an X on it. I know there was evidence to
Speaker 2: coroborate that, and there was a reenactment for those particular murders,
Speaker 2: but there wasn't anything in the van. It would include
Speaker 2: Dana or Shawna.
Speaker 1: Larry Dwayne Hall is evil incarnate, but I don't think
Speaker 1: the evidence supports him being the evil I have been
Speaker 1: chasing throughout this season. The reason Larry Hall has never
Speaker 1: faced murder charges is because, as horrible as it sounds
Speaker 1: the guy was able to hide the bodies of his
Speaker 1: victims very well, and as you know, neither Dana or
Speaker 1: Shauna were really hidden. With all this sevenance in hand,
Speaker 1: I could confidently exclude Larry Hall as their killer and
Speaker 1: continued down the road of Jack Lenny. Previously on Paper.
Speaker 5: Ghosts, it seems to check all the boxes for a
Speaker 5: sexual predator going into the store with a hood on
Speaker 5: their face, standing behind the women, poggling them, making circles
Speaker 5: around the store, sneaking up behind them, waiting for them
Speaker 5: in the parking lot after work, following them on the highway,
Speaker 5: trying to pull them over, in some cases, groping them.
Speaker 6: I just remember being in the basement of this individual's
Speaker 6: house and there had to been like over one hundred
Speaker 6: schools of different cords. I mean, I don't know who
Speaker 6: keeps chords. I don't keep chords, but it just was
Speaker 6: pretty ominous.
Speaker 2: It's extremely difficult, but it's not impossible. None of them
Speaker 2: were impossible. It was impossible to have this self trying,
Speaker 2: but that's gonna be solved, and it will be.
Speaker 1: My name is Emma William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist
Speaker 1: and author of more than forty true crime books. This
Speaker 1: is season four of Paper Ghosts the Ozarks. In getting
Speaker 1: Jack Lenny on the phone, I saw an opportunity, maybe
Speaker 1: the only one I would get. Go at him hard.
Speaker 1: I told myself, hold nothing back, put the evidence from
Speaker 1: Dana's and Shawna's cases on the table, and see how
Speaker 1: he responds. Like Brandon Howard, the journalist you've heard throughout
Speaker 1: the podcast, who I might add, has built a wrong
Speaker 1: case against Lenny over the course of many years and
Speaker 1: helped me more than I can express here. I flipped
Speaker 1: back and forth throughout my investigation. I couldn't stop wondering
Speaker 1: if all this circumstantial evidence pointing to LENNI was nothing
Speaker 1: more than a series of coincidences and an overactive sense
Speaker 1: of suspicion centered around a creep. I think you have
Speaker 1: to second guess yourself if you're doing due diligence, And
Speaker 1: I was reminded that law enforcement dropped the guy as
Speaker 1: a suspect in nineteen ninety five and never spoke to
Speaker 1: or pursued him again. Talking to Lenny, however, began to
Speaker 1: change my mind, and it's hard not to take what
Speaker 1: happened during our conversations and the events that took place afterward,
Speaker 1: as decades of pent up guilt finally leaving the body
Speaker 1: of this cocky son of a bitch. I want to
Speaker 1: go back to that phone call you heard at the
Speaker 1: end of the last episode and pick up where we
Speaker 1: left off. So you have nothing to do with Dana
Speaker 1: Stidham's murder?
Speaker 7: Hell no?
Speaker 1: Did you know Danas Stidham?
Speaker 7: Hell no?
Speaker 1: There's the other case in Pineville, gray Stowe, Seana Garber murder.
Speaker 1: What about her case? Any connection to her death?
Speaker 7: Hell no.
Speaker 1: Stark defiance and obvious anger, but within it an emphatic
Speaker 1: how dare you sense of denial? At least at the
Speaker 1: outset of our conversation. You were interviewed a few times
Speaker 1: and brought in, and they searched your place and came
Speaker 1: after you pretty damn hard? Am I right?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 1: Why was that? You think I have no worth?
Speaker 7: Idea? They were? They were hunting for someone first.
Speaker 1: There are a few ways to deal with a hostile source,
Speaker 1: especially one who's a strong person of interest. I am
Speaker 1: not a cop, clearly, and I do not solve murders.
Speaker 1: My aim always is to develop new information and try
Speaker 1: to help families find answers. Then I hand that information
Speaker 1: off to those qualified to solve cases. Jack Lenny was
Speaker 1: never going to like me, and I could not have
Speaker 1: cared less so I could use that personal disdain to
Speaker 1: my advantage. Repetition is a good way to get what
Speaker 1: you want in situations like these. Did you kill Dana Stidham?
Speaker 7: What do you think?
Speaker 3: I think?
Speaker 1: I don't know, which is why I'm asking either. His
Speaker 1: answers become ambiguous and suspicious to a fault. Why not
Speaker 1: just say hell no again? Why the games? Why not say, look,
Speaker 1: you have the wrong dude, I didn't do anything. How
Speaker 1: can I help you? Why not hang up the damn phone?
Speaker 1: After all, he knew I was recording the call. Now
Speaker 1: if I might ask the Sheriff's office seemed to think
Speaker 1: that you might have actually known Dana's Stidham. Why well,
Speaker 1: I have reports and statements and lots of witnesses that
Speaker 1: claim you hung around the Phillips grocery and that you
Speaker 1: knew Dana Stidam.
Speaker 7: I don't know.
Speaker 1: What do you mean you don't know? Do you remember Dana?
Speaker 1: She worked at the store.
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 1: I have a problem with this. Are you certain you
Speaker 1: didn't know her?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Going back to his second interview with BCSO detectives Varner
Speaker 1: and Sidor react, Lenny was the one who brought Dana
Speaker 1: up and knew exactly who she was. But why would
Speaker 1: they go after you so aggressively if you didn't at
Speaker 1: least know her or run into her at the store?
Speaker 7: I mean, because they were looking for an escapegoat. I
Speaker 7: thought I would be the one because I was all
Speaker 7: over the.
Speaker 1: Stre Okay, So you worked construction or something like that,
Speaker 1: and you were traveling all around Bella Vista area at
Speaker 1: the time. Is that correct? Is that what you're saying? Hello,
Speaker 1: This theme of Lenny going quiet on me would continue
Speaker 1: until something extremely bizarre happened. No, so you didn't work
Speaker 1: in the area, yes, but not then that's not true,
Speaker 1: wasn't it In nineteen eighty nine, nineteen nine? You were
Speaker 1: working in and around Bella Vista.
Speaker 7: You're correct?
Speaker 1: Okay, So you're saying that you had nothing to do
Speaker 1: with Dana's abduction and murder. Then is that your statement?
Speaker 1: Is that your response? You don't know who killed her?
Speaker 7: Not done, I don't know where she was killed.
Speaker 1: For a guy who had started out our phone call
Speaker 1: by saying he knew nothing about Dana's murder. I began
Speaker 1: to understand that his temperament wouldn't allow him to walk
Speaker 1: away without explaining himself. The reports, your interviews with the
Speaker 1: Benton County Sheriff's Office, the forensic evidence found in your vehicle,
Speaker 1: the cables and bindings found in your house. You were
Speaker 1: at the Phillips a lot in fact, on the day
Speaker 1: she went missing, and you were reported as possibly talking
Speaker 1: to Dana in the parking lot. I got to ask, again,
Speaker 1: did you know Dana? What from? I have no earthly
Speaker 1: idea to knowing her someone, and then she's later found murdered.
Speaker 1: I mean, they seem to think that you were their guy.
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to explain all of these coincidences lining
Speaker 1: up against you. Sure you didn't see her the day
Speaker 1: she went missing? No, so this is all coincidental, then circumstance,
Speaker 1: you had nothing to do with danas Didham's murder.
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 1: Are you sure about that, because the evidence says otherwise.
Speaker 8: As much to do murder as you did. Did you
Speaker 8: have anything to do with their murder?
Speaker 1: It became increasingly clear as we chatted that the mere
Speaker 1: mention of Dana's case triggered a strong reaction, especially when
Speaker 1: I began to touch on the evidence, and yet he
Speaker 1: would not hang up on me. I live on the
Speaker 1: East Coast. I wouldn't have had the opportunity, but you did, sir.
Speaker 7: All right, Africa, Well, let's.
Speaker 1: Talk about Panama. You went down there. Did you have
Speaker 1: some trouble while there, while you were in the service
Speaker 1: with a sex worker? What happened there?
Speaker 7: I remember, I got a miss understanding.
Speaker 8: I a long trouble down there with a misunderstanding some
Speaker 8: no one, no one of the president, Kevin annoyed.
Speaker 1: Empower a misunderstanding, he says. If you recall, I spoke
Speaker 1: to a sheriff earlier in the podcast who investigated the
Speaker 1: Panama allegations, and he told me Lenny beat a sex
Speaker 1: worker while stationed in Panama. A little more than a misunderstanding.
Speaker 1: I mean, you were accused of beating girl.
Speaker 8: I thought you just wanted to know about Dais still
Speaker 8: or whatever. But you covered them all when I told
Speaker 8: you I had nothing.
Speaker 7: To do with it.
Speaker 1: Are you absolutely certain about that?
Speaker 7: I guess I wasn't there.
Speaker 1: But you were there on the day she went missing
Speaker 1: at the Phillips grocery. That's pretty damn clear.
Speaker 7: It has been so long ago. I don't even think
Speaker 7: about it.
Speaker 1: So you're saying that you were never at the Phillips
Speaker 1: that day. Why would people place you there?
Speaker 7: Then?
Speaker 1: What is the evidence backing you up when others say different?
Speaker 1: My word, your ward alone. Could you talk to me
Speaker 1: about July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty nine, what you did
Speaker 1: on that day?
Speaker 8: I could I remember them?
Speaker 1: So the Sheriff's office came after you and questioned you
Speaker 1: hard to tell you that all these women at the
Speaker 1: grocery are accusing you of sexual harassment, following women on
Speaker 1: the way out, following them in your card. He does
Speaker 1: not deny any of the sexual harassment he's been accused of.
Speaker 1: I moved on to a subject essential to my investigation,
Speaker 1: placing Lenny at the crime scene. I wanted to get
Speaker 1: him to say he knew where it was because I
Speaker 1: knew he did. What about Beal Lane, the crime scene
Speaker 1: up there by Ozark Beverage where Dana was found. Do
Speaker 1: you know where that is?
Speaker 7: Oh? What you mean?
Speaker 1: You don't know that area?
Speaker 7: Really?
Speaker 1: Remember what he says there? It'll come back into play
Speaker 1: later on in the episode. At this point in our conversation,
Speaker 1: something really odd happens. He starts breathing heavily. Any mention
Speaker 1: of the crime scene, I realized struck a nerve. I'd
Speaker 1: found an area of inquiry that rattled him. Are you
Speaker 1: still there?
Speaker 7: Are you still there?
Speaker 1: I'm here? Are you all right? You're feeling okay? Do
Speaker 1: you remember that time.
Speaker 7: I forgot about?
Speaker 1: Lots of people think you killed that girl. You've never
Speaker 1: been up to be elane.
Speaker 7: I told you.
Speaker 1: No again, Remember what he says for a second time. No,
Speaker 1: he'd never been up to be a lane. Not where
Speaker 1: is it? Or I don't know where that area of
Speaker 1: town is, but a resounding no. This answer will become
Speaker 1: very important when we look at what happens the day
Speaker 1: after I speak to Lenny. Lots of people say different.
Speaker 7: I don't think wherever they want to.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about your ex wife. She was interviewed by
Speaker 1: the Sheriff's office. She told him a few fairly incriminating
Speaker 1: things about you, like you were acting strange around the
Speaker 1: time Dana went missing, and around that time when she
Speaker 1: was found her body murdered. You got physically ill once
Speaker 1: when her case was mentioned on TV. How do we
Speaker 1: explain that you there?
Speaker 7: Thanks for that mass the divorce she was scared of you.
Speaker 1: That's what I believe. What kind of person was your
Speaker 1: ex wife? He describes her by using an insulting racial slur,
Speaker 1: which I will not allow in this show. So I
Speaker 1: changed course. You spoke with police twice. You admitted seeing
Speaker 1: Dana that day in the parking lot. You said you
Speaker 1: might have known her. You tell me you didn't know her,
Speaker 1: which is it? No, according to the reports, you were
Speaker 1: well aware of this case as it was happening. After
Speaker 1: they questioned you a second time, they asked you to
Speaker 1: take a polygraph. There was a lot of activity around
Speaker 1: you for a time there. They were really hot on you.
Speaker 1: You know this. They came at you hard. Did you
Speaker 1: kill Danas Stidham? You there, speak to me? He doesn't
Speaker 1: say anything for about two minutes.
Speaker 7: Then you got all the information. Well why did you
Speaker 7: ask me if you already knew? Uh? Stupid, wasn't it.
Speaker 1: I'm just asking questions. You don't have to talk.
Speaker 7: To me, understandfory too.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be certain he was consenting to the
Speaker 1: interview as part of the podcast, so I put it
Speaker 1: out there again. Well, I'm recording this from my podcast
Speaker 1: paper Ghosts.
Speaker 7: I don't care you.
Speaker 1: Kill that girl?
Speaker 7: Didn't.
Speaker 1: It's important at this stage to go back to Shauna
Speaker 1: Garber's case. In the last episode, you heard a vulgar
Speaker 1: caller who was later allegedly identified as Jack Lenny, threatened
Speaker 1: to cut off the breasts of the woman on the
Speaker 1: other end of the phone. In early twenty twenty four,
Speaker 1: law enforcement revealed to me that Shauna Garber's killer cut
Speaker 1: her breasts off after binding her and injecting her with
Speaker 1: a hot shot an intentional forced overdose of heroin. No
Speaker 1: knowledge of what happened to Shanna Garber. Shauna Garber, No,
Speaker 1: I don't know. You never picked her up, hitch hiking,
Speaker 1: No murder, She was likely hitchhiking, was murdered. Her body
Speaker 1: dumped on Oscar Tally Road in Pineville Anderson, Missouri. You're
Speaker 1: familiar with that area. Oh, several minutes went by with
Speaker 1: nothing but heavy breathing. Did you kill Shauna Garber?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 1: I got a sense he was beginning to feel the
Speaker 1: weight of what we were talking about. It was clearly
Speaker 1: worrying him to dredge all of this up. It had
Speaker 1: been thirty one year since law enforcement spoke to Lenny. Here.
Speaker 1: Now three decades later, he's having a visceral reaction, a
Speaker 1: panic attack. Essentially at the mere mention of these cases,
Speaker 1: You're okay, this interview bothering you. And then as things escalate,
Speaker 1: with his breathing increasing, he does something incredible, something in fact,
Speaker 1: you've heard him do before, when the murders of two
Speaker 1: young women were put right in his face. When we
Speaker 1: are anxious or stressed, we feel it in our gut.
Speaker 1: It's simple physiology. We've all been there, uncomfortable situationations, and
Speaker 1: dare I say feelings of guilt can exacerbate a condition
Speaker 1: known as stress nausea. We've been down this road before.
Speaker 1: Within the investigation into Jack Linny, remember that back in
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, his ex wife told detective Danny Varner
Speaker 1: that when Dana's case came on television one night, Lenny vomited.
Speaker 1: As my conversation with Lenny continued, I could feel the
Speaker 1: stress coming from the other end of the line. The
Speaker 1: heavy breathing, odd silences, groaning noises, the fact that he
Speaker 1: did not hang up on me. It all said something
Speaker 1: about his disposition, personality, and attitude toward the murders of
Speaker 1: Dana Stidham and Seanna Garber. Is this upsetting to you
Speaker 1: to talk about. No, so there's no way you had
Speaker 1: anything to do with Dana Didham's murder. All right, About
Speaker 1: three minutes went by. He remained silent, but every once
Speaker 1: in a while he'd let me know he was still
Speaker 1: willing to talk. Still there, Yeah, you're doing all right there.
Speaker 1: This thing bringing up a lot of old feeling.
Speaker 7: I was sick.
Speaker 1: There. It was the conversation had made him ill, not
Speaker 1: the flu or a cold. Talking about this was making
Speaker 1: Jack Lenny sick to his stomach. I did stop over
Speaker 1: there at your house when I was in Arkansas over
Speaker 1: the summer, but you weren't around, knocked on the door there,
Speaker 1: So well, just letting you know, you know, just conversation.
Speaker 1: There's no evidence that can tie you to Dana's murder.
Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying? I just want to get
Speaker 1: it straight with your You know what you're telling me.
Speaker 1: Is there anything you'd like to say to her family?
Speaker 1: Her mother just passed away?
Speaker 7: Showed your mind.
Speaker 1: Notice he doesn't say sorry to hear that, or show
Speaker 1: any sympathy whatsoever. Instead, he takes the narcissistic route and
Speaker 1: makes it about himself. I'm sorry to hear that. There's
Speaker 1: some people in law enforcement think you might be a
Speaker 1: serial killer. What do you think of that? I don't
Speaker 1: you think they'll ever find the person who killed Danas Didham?
Speaker 1: You think the person is still alive. He had nothing
Speaker 1: to do with her abduction.
Speaker 7: Only time you have to tray it.
Speaker 1: And you you've never been to Pineville, Missouri? Frequent in
Speaker 1: that area? Oscar Tally Road? What Oscar Tally Road in
Speaker 1: Pineville Anderson, Missouri?
Speaker 7: Oh?
Speaker 1: Not true, he told the BCSO he used to pass
Speaker 1: by the area all the time when he lived in Missouri.
Speaker 1: I was curious about a phone call. I have a
Speaker 1: report of a girl who took a phone call. It's
Speaker 1: a very vile phone call about a man who called
Speaker 1: and said all sorts of disgusting sexual things. And then
Speaker 1: they brought her in and they played her the tape
Speaker 1: of your interview and six other guys, and she picked
Speaker 1: you out of that lineup. Do you remember making that call?
Speaker 1: That wasn't you? Do you want me to stop by
Speaker 1: there next time I'm in the area and have a
Speaker 1: chat with you in person?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Are you done talking about this? Is there anything you'd
Speaker 1: like to say? Five minutes went by without a response,
Speaker 1: but I could hear him. He was nauseous and whimpering,
Speaker 1: and if you listen closely, you can hear movement. He's
Speaker 1: doing something. Any mention of the crime scenes produced the
Speaker 1: biggest reaction. Just how big I was about to learn.
Speaker 4: Mm hmmm, you are right, mhm, m hmm.
Speaker 9: You okay, mhmm.
Speaker 1: This subject seems to be upsetting to you.
Speaker 9: Okay.
Speaker 1: He was vomiting, but the guy still wouldn't hang up
Speaker 1: on me. He blew his nose, threw up some more,
Speaker 1: breathed heavily, but he stayed on the line, and he
Speaker 1: had literally brought the phone with him into the bathroom.
Speaker 1: Should we say goodbye now? Anything else you want to say?
Speaker 1: This seems very upsetting to you. I'm gonna say goodbye now.
Speaker 1: I'm not getting any response from you. Is there anything
Speaker 1: you want to talk about? You have my number. I
Speaker 1: hung up after about ten minutes of listening to him
Speaker 1: breathing and trying to figure out his next move. And look,
Speaker 1: at this point, I certainly have not proven he had
Speaker 1: anything to do with either murder. The pressure I applied
Speaker 1: during this call might seem aggressive, but he has harassed
Speaker 1: women all his life. The fact that I gave it
Speaker 1: back to this bully in a small way. Tough shit.
Speaker 1: You want to taunt women, abuse women, harass them and
Speaker 1: foul them, and stalk them and intimidate them. I Am
Speaker 1: not going to hold back. This would not be the
Speaker 1: last time I confronted Jack Lenny. After the call, I
Speaker 1: contacted the BCSO and let them know what had gone down.
Speaker 1: Then I called Detective Laurie Howard and explained ending by saying, this, look,
Speaker 1: he's on the ropes. You had better get a few
Speaker 1: investigators over there, like tomorrow to interview him. Laurie Howard,
Speaker 1: along with Detective Ronda Wise and an observer, knocked on
Speaker 1: Lenny's door the following day, and you know what a
Speaker 1: difference twenty four hours can make. I obtained a recording
Speaker 1: of the interview Laurie Howard conducted with Jack Lenny the
Speaker 1: day after I spoke to him. However, because Lenny did
Speaker 1: not consent to me using it as he had from
Speaker 1: my calls with him, I need to summarize, so.
Speaker 10: I need to know if I can pick your brain.
Speaker 2: I'm here to talk about a gal by the name
Speaker 2: of Shawn at Barber. I'm hoping you can help me go.
Speaker 1: Back because I'm After introducing herself, Detective Howard mentioned Shauna Garber,
Speaker 1: which was her doorway into what Lenny had to say
Speaker 1: about Dana. Lenny used the word scapegoat yet again. What's
Speaker 1: important is that he sounds different. He's laughing and joking,
Speaker 1: being a smart ass, almost gloating when he talks to Laurie.
Speaker 1: Laurie asks him, if you didn't know Shauna or Dana,
Speaker 1: why did the BCSO just randomly pick you to drag
Speaker 1: in for an interview. He says, quote, I was at
Speaker 1: the Phillips grocery store a lot. Laurie then tells Lenny
Speaker 1: the BCSO has his DNA, which he interprets as a
Speaker 1: sample he gave them back in the day. She clarified
Speaker 1: by saying she believed that they had found his DNA
Speaker 1: on Dana. He shrugged off the statement. He then mentioned
Speaker 1: that I had called him the day before, referring to
Speaker 1: me as a joker. Here's Laurie explaining her interaction with
Speaker 1: Lenny on that day and several days after the visit,
Speaker 1: when he began calling her.
Speaker 2: Incessantly, and then he just reminds me that he is
Speaker 2: a killer, and he never once told me that he
Speaker 2: wasn't a killer, and so you know, I basically reprimanded
Speaker 2: him and said, well, you know, essentially, I don't hear
Speaker 2: you're a killer if you're not going to go into
Speaker 2: detail and tell me about that. So he switches gears,
Speaker 2: and I think it's probably in an effort to regain
Speaker 2: some power or control. So he tells me, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm a millionaire, and he said, why haven't you been
Speaker 2: back to see me? And I said, well, basically, i've
Speaker 2: been in touch with you, or better yet, you've been
Speaker 2: in touch with me, and you still don't have anything
Speaker 2: that I need. And so he said, are you at home?
Speaker 2: And I said yes, and he said are you by yourself?
Speaker 2: And I lied and I said no and he said, well,
Speaker 2: I only kill people that are by themselves. And I said,
Speaker 2: so if I was by myself, essentially you're telling me
Speaker 2: that you I would be a good candidate. And he said,
Speaker 2: I just asked if you were home and alone.
Speaker 1: At his house that day, Laurie asked Lenny what he
Speaker 1: would do if the BCSO showed up at his door
Speaker 1: with an arrest warrant. Lenny said, quote, if they try
Speaker 1: to get in, I've got a thirty eight fully loaded
Speaker 1: that I sleep with now. If you recall, he had
Speaker 1: told me he had no idea where Dana was found,
Speaker 1: but it was when I started talking about the crime scene,
Speaker 1: the one he allegedly had no idea of, that made
Speaker 1: him physically ill. A day later, talking to Detective Laurie Howard,
Speaker 1: he explained exactly where Dana was found, admitted to being
Speaker 1: out there, and even mentioned how badly her corpse smelled,
Speaker 1: referring to the smell of decomposition as sickening. And the
Speaker 1: reason for his DNA possibly being at the scene, which
Speaker 1: Laurie had floated, he said, would be because he urinated
Speaker 1: in the woods near where Dana's body was found. As
Speaker 1: they discussed the crime scene, Laurie asked why he didn't
Speaker 1: tell anyone from the bcso he had been out to
Speaker 1: the scene and saw Dana's body, which would have explained
Speaker 1: why they had his DNA. He said he didn't want
Speaker 1: to get involved. Days later, during one of more than
Speaker 1: ten phone calls Laurie received from Lenny, he says to her.
Speaker 2: I'm not afraid to give answers. He said, I'm going
Speaker 2: to die, and I said, well, before you die, why
Speaker 2: don't you tell me what you know I want to hear.
Speaker 2: And he said, I know you've worked hard, and I said,
Speaker 2: I have worked hard. I've dedicated my entire life to
Speaker 2: this kind of thing. I would really would like to
Speaker 2: wrap this up. You know, these these girls are deserving.
Speaker 2: And he said, I know I'm not afraid to die
Speaker 2: and I'm not afraid to talk. And I said, well,
Speaker 2: apparently you are. And he kind of got snippy with
Speaker 2: me a little bit. You know, well, I'm giving you
Speaker 2: answers and I said, you're not giving me answers. So
Speaker 2: we went back and forth with that just a little bit,
Speaker 2: and I said, I'm going to go, but if you
Speaker 2: want me to come talk to you, and you want
Speaker 2: me to come see you, or you want to continue
Speaker 2: to call me, then it's not good enough that you're
Speaker 2: just telling me you killed somebody. He also told me
Speaker 2: that the same person who killed Dana killed my girl.
Speaker 2: He referred to Sean my girl. He wants to tell
Speaker 2: you he's a killer. He wants to tell you he'll
Speaker 2: kill you. He point blank said it to me. If
Speaker 2: you're by yourself, I would be there. I would kill you.
Speaker 1: The big takeaway from the conversations Laurie Howard had with
Speaker 1: Lenny was that he admitted to being at the crime
Speaker 1: scene while Dana's body was out in the woods, but
Speaker 1: only after she mentioned that the BCSO had his DNA.
Speaker 1: Near the end of what was a two hour conversation
Speaker 1: during her visit, Laurie asked Lenny if he thought of
Speaker 1: himself as a psychopath. He responded by saying he was
Speaker 1: a crazy kind of guy. So she countered by asking
Speaker 1: him if he ever felt remorse, and he said, why
Speaker 1: should I, to which Laurie responded, That's exactly what Dennis
Speaker 1: Raider said to me.
Speaker 2: They called me the other night. He said I never
Speaker 2: said I wasn't a killer, and I told him, I said, well,
Speaker 2: it's not good enough. It's not good enough for you
Speaker 2: to tell me that you're not a killer if you're
Speaker 2: not gonna tell me who you killed.
Speaker 1: In February twenty twenty four, Lenny called me one afternoon.
Speaker 1: I waited a day and called him back. You called
Speaker 1: me the other day. I was wondering, what's going on?
Speaker 7: Who is this?
Speaker 1: This is em William Phelps. We talked a while ago.
Speaker 1: I'm an investigative journalist looking at Danis Stidham's case. I
Speaker 1: called you and we recorded a phone call from my
Speaker 1: podcast and I saw that you called, so I was
Speaker 1: wondering what's up.
Speaker 7: I probably just missed all in the morning thing.
Speaker 1: Oh you didn't want to talk?
Speaker 7: Uh wh I should? I don't know anything.
Speaker 1: You don't know anything about those cases.
Speaker 7: I don't really anything.
Speaker 1: Have you spoke to police lately or anybody like that
Speaker 1: or me recently within the past six months year.
Speaker 7: I told you to somebody the other day.
Speaker 1: Oh you did what you have to say?
Speaker 7: She was er the case?
Speaker 8: Sure, I said, no, well there or they instill of
Speaker 8: be either.
Speaker 1: So you know, Danas Stidham, we were talking before and
Speaker 1: you said you didn't have anything to do with that.
Speaker 7: No, I didn't. I got blamed for it. I tell
Speaker 7: you that advertation in southwest Missouri.
Speaker 1: How did it ruin your reputation?
Speaker 7: Because it was I did.
Speaker 1: Nobody even knew the guy had been questioned. His name,
Speaker 1: unlike Mike McMillan's, was never brought into the case publicly.
Speaker 1: That's just more bullshit spewing from the mouth of a
Speaker 1: guy who spewed a lot of it and likes to
Speaker 1: play games. What about the we were talking about the
Speaker 1: crime scene?
Speaker 8: I did not talk to you anybody else because I
Speaker 8: don't know anything. You're not too bright either, something. I
Speaker 8: don't know anything. I've told you that time time again.
Speaker 1: Your name is on a lot of the reports. How
Speaker 1: come they came after you so hard? They searched your
Speaker 1: house as well? In your car.
Speaker 7: Right right right? That didn't be a damp thing.
Speaker 1: Well they found blood in your station wagon in the
Speaker 1: front seat.
Speaker 7: Now, if I kills them anything, i'd load them in
Speaker 7: the front seat.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not a killer, Oh not either,
Speaker 1: are you?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 8: I just get to tell you, you're not too damn brother?
Speaker 8: If you don't understand English.
Speaker 1: What about the bindings they took from your house, rope wire,
Speaker 1: that sort of thing.
Speaker 7: Big deal. A lot of people have ropes and stuff.
Speaker 1: In the house, ropes with a murder victim's DNA on it.
Speaker 7: It wasn't.
Speaker 1: I think that's yet to be the determined.
Speaker 7: What the hell you told her me for? Well?
Speaker 1: You called me, so I'm calling you back, and I'm
Speaker 1: asking you why you called. You wanted to talk to me.
Speaker 1: I'm just being respectful here, you know. I want I
Speaker 1: want your your opinion, I want your voice and what
Speaker 1: I'm working on so you can explain yourself. That's all
Speaker 1: your explain myself. They questioned you a number of times.
Speaker 1: They questioned your ex wife, you know, your kids. They
Speaker 1: looked at your background.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 1: They searched your house. They searched your vehicles.
Speaker 7: Weather fine, weather fun.
Speaker 1: They found blood in your station wagon.
Speaker 7: Who's blood?
Speaker 1: Well, you tell me, why would you have a bunch
Speaker 1: of blood on the carpet of your station wagon. I've
Speaker 1: seen photographs of it. That's a lot of blood. So
Speaker 1: where would that blood come from?
Speaker 7: Who knows? You know?
Speaker 1: You it's your car. If there was blood I found
Speaker 1: in my car, I'd know where it came from.
Speaker 7: Well you would, Bud would how come? Why is there.
Speaker 1: Because it's your vehicle?
Speaker 7: Big deal?
Speaker 1: I believe there was blood also in the back seat
Speaker 1: of the car. So it is that Dana Didam's blood.
Speaker 8: Blood?
Speaker 7: Unpagging house? Who there's blood where you're pegging house?
Speaker 1: Is that danas Didam's blood?
Speaker 7: Hasa know? Is it your blood?
Speaker 1: It's not my blood?
Speaker 8: How do you know?
Speaker 1: It was a stupid comeback and he knew it. You
Speaker 1: might be wondering if that blood was ever tested. I
Speaker 1: asked the BCSO and despite luminol tests showing blood all
Speaker 1: over the place inside his vehicle, which the crime scene
Speaker 1: photos I have depict, as well as indications of blood
Speaker 1: clean up. I was told there was not enough to test.
Speaker 1: Lenny was combative this time around. I'll give him that,
Speaker 1: so I decided to touch upon the subject which had
Speaker 1: caused him so much anxiety last time. See if I
Speaker 1: got the same response. What about the Beal Road crime
Speaker 1: scene where she was found? We were talking about that before.
Speaker 1: Did you ever go walking through that woods or did
Speaker 1: you hunt there or anything more of the same silence
Speaker 1: and noises. Hello, I think you went quiet last time
Speaker 1: we talked about Beal Road in the woods there. From
Speaker 1: what I'm told, they have your DNA found out there.
Speaker 1: I think this happened last time we chatted. I asked
Speaker 1: you about Beal Road and the crime scene where Dana
Speaker 1: was found, and last time he got sick. This time
Speaker 1: you're just silent. I guess I'm gonna hang up now
Speaker 1: if you don't want to talk. You have my number.
Speaker 1: You called me so oh. It's rare that as you
Speaker 1: work on cold cases in the capacity I do, a
Speaker 1: case breaks wide open for you as you are investigating.
Speaker 1: But that is what happened as I worked on this
Speaker 1: final episode. In early March twenty twenty four, Detective Lorie
Speaker 1: Howard and Detective Ronda Wise, with the help of others,
Speaker 1: finally solved and officially closed Shauna Garber's murder, and what
Speaker 1: was first thought to be a gruesome manner of death
Speaker 1: as I had mentioned, turned out to be false. Shauna's
Speaker 1: breasts were not mutilated after all, Thank god for small mercies.
Speaker 1: I had been told about this new suspect, Telfy Reeves
Speaker 1: during the summer of twenty twenty three. The guy was
Speaker 1: a real shit bag and hit every marker your average
Speaker 1: psychopath would.
Speaker 2: There was never any manner of death in the autopsy report.
Speaker 2: The strangulation was supposition based on a lack of other things.
Speaker 2: But yes, having worked a great deal my partner, Deputy Wise,
Speaker 2: and I and especially lately, i'd say within the last
Speaker 2: six months, we have spent every day, all day long
Speaker 2: working on this and the reason is because we developed
Speaker 2: a suspect. That suspect is no longer alive, unfortunately, but
Speaker 2: what it did do when he passed, it opened some
Speaker 2: doors for people to come forward that wouldn't come forward
Speaker 2: prior to So this suspect in Shawna's case, and now
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna call him tr but I anticipate a
Speaker 2: press release coming forward very soon, so he is now
Speaker 2: a suspect. I now have people talking.
Speaker 7: I have.
Speaker 2: Finally, I think, I say, I but we have placed
Speaker 2: it and put it all together in the puzzle that
Speaker 2: it is, and I think we got it.
Speaker 1: That press release did come on March twenty first, twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four, and this narrative you were about to hear
Speaker 1: regarding Shawna's murder fell in line with Shauna seemingly being
Speaker 1: in the wrong place at the wrong time, with the
Speaker 1: devil lurking in the shadows. We've discussed the likelihood and
Speaker 1: we now believed that there is likely no connection to
Speaker 1: Dana's case.
Speaker 2: What we believe happened to Shauna. She aged out of
Speaker 2: the foster care system, and as we found out, she
Speaker 2: was adopted early on, somewhere around the age of six
Speaker 2: her adoptive parents. We call it a failed adoption because
Speaker 2: Shauna had a lot of mental and a lot of
Speaker 2: physical problems. She went back into the foster care system
Speaker 2: somewhere around eighty five eighty four eighty five eighty six.
Speaker 2: She left a foster care situation. The caseworker is known
Speaker 2: to have told family members that she was going to
Speaker 2: go stay in Oklahoma, which was a piece we didn't
Speaker 2: have for a long time. But she was going to
Speaker 2: go stay in Oklahoma because she had family there. We
Speaker 2: searched to a dead end basically on the family members
Speaker 2: in Oklahoma, which made me at first question it. But
Speaker 2: then I realized, we're probably not talking about her biological family.
Speaker 2: We're not even talking about her adopted family. More than likely,
Speaker 2: we're talking about her last foster care family's extended family,
Speaker 2: because that's really all she had. So she winds up
Speaker 2: in Oklahoma, interestingly enough, in the Vanita Claremore area, which
Speaker 2: is not too far from the Missouri line. We later
Speaker 2: learned that she was being transported via a work program
Speaker 2: via van back and forth to a job. Now we
Speaker 2: were initially giving bad information, which threw us off again.
Speaker 2: We were told that it was a different area, that
Speaker 2: this was in Kansas. It wasn't. But we figured out
Speaker 2: that the van that she was taking back and forth
Speaker 2: from the Vanita Claremore area was taking her more than
Speaker 2: likely to Hudson Foods. Hudson Foods was bought out and
Speaker 2: is now Tyson Foods, but it has always been in
Speaker 2: the Missouri area. It's in McDonald County. It actually is
Speaker 2: less than maybe two miles a mile and a half
Speaker 2: from where she was dumped. That van was taking her
Speaker 2: back and forth from the Word program back to where
Speaker 2: she was staying in the Vanita Claremore area. However, on
Speaker 2: one occasion at least she wasn't on the van. I
Speaker 2: don't know exactly what happened, but she didn't wind up there,
Speaker 2: and we were told by a witness that says t
Speaker 2: R picked her up while she was walking along that highway,
Speaker 2: which is consistent. Everybody walks Highway fifty nine going from
Speaker 2: Tyson's nol or Hudson Foods nol Over to where she
Speaker 2: would have been found walking and where we were told
Speaker 2: she was picked up, so that's all consistent.
Speaker 1: There are no pictures of Shanna Garber from her childhood
Speaker 1: teen years or later, save for one photo when she
Speaker 1: was about four years old. Her toothless smile, short hair,
Speaker 1: and overall joyous expression obscuring horrendous abuse before she had
Speaker 1: even entered into the foster care system. By March twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four, Laurie had finally latched onto, at least partially,
Speaker 1: one of the ghosts she had been chasing for fifteen
Speaker 1: long years. Here's Detective Laurie Howard again.
Speaker 2: The other thing we have put together, Ginger Blue, especially
Speaker 2: in the nineties, was a beautiful vacation spot. It had
Speaker 2: a gorgeous inn. It was a thriving place, had a
Speaker 2: restaurant and a place to stay. But towards the early nineties,
Speaker 2: I should say, back up in, say, in the eighties,
Speaker 2: it was flourishing, but when you got to that nineties area,
Speaker 2: it had gone downhill some And she, Shauna had a
Speaker 2: material that was in her pocket. I looked at that
Speaker 2: material for a really long time and determined that it
Speaker 2: was a cloth napkin. And I couldn't never understand why
Speaker 2: she would have a cloth napkin in her pocket, unless
Speaker 2: she was working at a restaurant, or perhaps she was hungry,
Speaker 2: grabbed a roll, grabbed bread and put it in her pocket. Together,
Speaker 2: we know that she had a towel wrapped around her
Speaker 2: head in coax cable. Right that towel was It's consistent
Speaker 2: with the kind of towel, the color of towel that
Speaker 2: they had at the inn. They also had an old
Speaker 2: TV system. Of course, back then cable TV with a
Speaker 2: short cox cable attached to each one of the rooms,
Speaker 2: each TV that was in each room at the old inn.
Speaker 2: So it's consistent to say that she at some point
Speaker 2: in time had ended up there around that octoberish timeframe.
Speaker 1: Did tr work at that place?
Speaker 2: He didn't work there, but he passed it every day.
Speaker 1: There was the answer to the coaxial cable and towel
Speaker 1: wrapped around Shawna's head.
Speaker 2: That stretch of highway, you really just can't get very
Speaker 2: far without going one direction or the other on that
Speaker 2: stretch of highway connects Well fifty nine runs all the
Speaker 2: way from Anderson all the way through to knowl and
Speaker 2: on end to Arkansas.
Speaker 1: So he picked her up on the road while she
Speaker 1: was hitchhiking or something.
Speaker 2: Well, she was walking, and I don't know if she
Speaker 2: was if she had missed the van and she was
Speaker 2: wanting to stay in that area, if she literally was
Speaker 2: just looking for a place to stay for that night,
Speaker 2: or if she was trying to get it job there.
Speaker 2: That's still kind of a mystery why she was walking
Speaker 2: that night, because the van would have picked her up,
Speaker 2: you know, dropped her off in the morning and picked
Speaker 2: her up in the evening after the shift. Could have
Speaker 2: been that she just was tired of working and tired
Speaker 2: of living where she was living and opted to go
Speaker 2: a different route.
Speaker 1: And tr You know a lot about him, and not
Speaker 1: a great deal. He was a bad guy, am I right?
Speaker 4: It was a.
Speaker 2: Terrible I have one witness, five sources, and I personally
Speaker 2: knew the man and everybody that has ever known him,
Speaker 2: and I'm going to be one of those those people.
Speaker 2: He was evil, He was pure evil. He ran drugs,
Speaker 2: He used drugs all of his life. He had two
Speaker 2: children that passed from gunshot wounds. He had an ex
Speaker 2: wife that had a hillacious life by all accounts, I mean,
Speaker 2: just by digging into his life with her. So I
Speaker 2: can't imagine having this person around me. And now I
Speaker 2: can imagine why nobody really wanted to speak, right, because
Speaker 2: why would you?
Speaker 1: I mean, Shauna crossed paths with the devil.
Speaker 2: She did, She most certainly did. And you know what,
Speaker 2: of course she would, of course she would yea if
Speaker 2: there was a wrong turn. The girl to icket through
Speaker 2: no fault of.
Speaker 1: Her own, right, the invisible girl.
Speaker 2: She's completely invisible and I say that because there's no
Speaker 2: one cared enough to even take a picture of her.
Speaker 2: And I don't know why that bothers me so, but
Speaker 2: it does.
Speaker 11: Yeah, Yeah, And so you develop information that trs her
Speaker 11: up and what happens.
Speaker 2: He has a person of interest with him at the time,
Speaker 2: we were able to determine through both a witness and
Speaker 2: other sources. Now five other sources, we've been able to
Speaker 2: corroborate this story that he takes her. Now, remember, this
Speaker 2: is a drug fueled frenzy, spun out mess with somebody
Speaker 2: that I've been told is almost bipolar, can be seemingly
Speaker 2: somewhat normal, and then just angry, so angry that you're
Speaker 2: terrified to be in his presence. So he picks her
Speaker 2: up along with another and he takes her up the
Speaker 2: road where by the way he lives, you can see
Speaker 2: his home by looking directly across from where she is,
Speaker 2: and he binds her with what they have in the
Speaker 2: back of the vehicle. I think the cox cable was
Speaker 2: done initially to wrap her face so she wouldn't see
Speaker 2: what was happening, so she wouldn't see where they were going,
Speaker 2: so she wouldn't see where she was Because I don't
Speaker 2: think he cared whether he saw her face and how
Speaker 2: afraid she might have been. I've been told that that
Speaker 2: just would have made things better for him, So I
Speaker 2: believe he did it to keep her from knowing where
Speaker 2: she was going. I think he took the towel. From
Speaker 2: the end, he used the cox cable, which I always
Speaker 2: thought was odd. Couldn't figure out why anybody, especially somebody
Speaker 2: that's a serial killer or basically a farm boy, either
Speaker 2: one somebody local, You wouldn't tie somebody with cox cable.
Speaker 2: It's the worst possible medium. But I think he did
Speaker 2: it just because he didn't have anything else at the time.
Speaker 2: Put it across her face and neck, and that's where
Speaker 2: that entered in. Then also from the end, she had
Speaker 2: the napkin in her pocket. He took her up to
Speaker 2: the road. They tied her the rest of the way
Speaker 2: with what they had in the back of the vehicle.
Speaker 2: I now know who that vehicle belongs to, which was
Speaker 2: a hang up for a while. They raped her and
Speaker 2: she was screaming so badly, and so it breaks my heart.
Speaker 2: But she was literally screaming so much that you could
Speaker 2: hear the echo down the valley, and it scared them.
Speaker 1: This explains the screams on Halloween. Laurie Howard and Ronda
Speaker 1: Wise spoke to six different sources, none of whom knew
Speaker 1: each other, each telling the same story. This is how
Speaker 1: we know we have the absolute truth. This next part
Speaker 1: from me exemplifies and truly displays the sociopath's absolute pathology.
Speaker 2: Who are and so my witness says that he's laughing
Speaker 2: as he's telling this story later on in the evening,
Speaker 2: But they start to get nervous because somebody. They know
Speaker 2: that there's a party down the hill, they know that
Speaker 2: it's a bunch of kids, they know it's a Halloween.
Speaker 2: But they start to get They start to get nervous.
Speaker 2: So he overdoses her, which, by the way, come to
Speaker 2: find out, is a pretty standard practice because I'm told
Speaker 2: this wasn't his first victim.
Speaker 1: So he gives her a hot shot.
Speaker 2: He gives her a hot.
Speaker 1: Shot, and then what does he do.
Speaker 2: He I have My witness states that she believes and
Speaker 2: this is according to what tr says, that he props
Speaker 2: her up, and she says she she thinks that it
Speaker 2: would have been on an old spickett, an old water spigut.
Speaker 2: I don't know I can't confirm that, so I don't
Speaker 2: really want to say that that's the case. But essentially
Speaker 2: she's propped up somehow. Why I don't know.
Speaker 7: And then.
Speaker 2: T R and person of interests leave. They then go
Speaker 2: and talk to someone else and they're talking about everything
Speaker 2: that they just did to her, and they're laughing and
Speaker 2: they think it's funny, and they're reliving every moment. Now,
Speaker 2: remember this just happened. And so what happens the next morning?
Speaker 2: My witness goes next door or I should say, up
Speaker 2: the hill, and sure enough, she sees everything that she
Speaker 2: thought she.
Speaker 1: Would see, and Shawna was dead.
Speaker 2: Shauna was dead.
Speaker 1: And did they mutilate her at all?
Speaker 2: No? The story that was given by one source stated
Speaker 2: that she had her breasts removed or sliced. I've had
Speaker 2: more than one source come forward with TR and say no,
Speaker 2: he did not cut her breast off.
Speaker 11: Okay, thank god for small things.
Speaker 1: So wow, So yeah, I can understand why witnesses would
Speaker 1: have been afraid of coming forward until he died.
Speaker 2: They were terrified.
Speaker 1: And he died a horrible death, right, I mean, he
Speaker 1: died in an accident a vehicle.
Speaker 2: He did, he died in a vehicle accident. I'm told
Speaker 2: it was a horrible death good and you know what,
Speaker 2: I'm okay with that. And I know that sounds.
Speaker 1: Callous, No it doesn't.
Speaker 2: But but on the other hand, my feelings for Shauna
Speaker 2: and in any case that I work, but Shawna in particular,
Speaker 2: and I'm told I look like Shawna.
Speaker 1: Shawna was like the daughter to you.
Speaker 7: She was.
Speaker 2: She absolutely was. I took her with me everywhere I went.
Speaker 2: You did, and that's because I didn't want to lose
Speaker 2: her again. I had to find her in the first.
Speaker 1: Place, and you solved the case. Nathan Smith was no
Speaker 1: longer the Bentonville prosecutor. He left the office during the
Speaker 1: time I began this case years ago and finished my
Speaker 1: work in twenty twenty four, taking a job on Walmart's
Speaker 1: legal team. But the last time I spoke to him
Speaker 1: about the cases, he said a few things that I
Speaker 1: think sum up this season very well.
Speaker 10: Well, Look, I think that first of all, I appreciate
Speaker 10: you doing the story, and I know there's a lot
Speaker 10: of cases around the country that are cold and have
Speaker 10: families that the one answer is just as badly, but
Speaker 10: it is so important for these cases to not be
Speaker 10: Forgod and to not be just shelved. And so one
Speaker 10: of the things important is there could be someone listening
Speaker 10: who knows something, who knows someone, who is related to
Speaker 10: someone that maybe their entire family thinks, you know what,
Speaker 10: he has always acted very suspiciously and has all these connections,
Speaker 10: and I would just for the sake of Dani's family,
Speaker 10: I would just beg them to get that information to
Speaker 10: law enforcement or to someone who can use it, because
Speaker 10: oftentimes in cases like this, it can be small things
Speaker 10: that make the difference. It can be a small key
Speaker 10: that unlocks a door to an avenue that no one
Speaker 10: knew was there. And we have to value human life
Speaker 10: and we can't simply forget about it because it's old
Speaker 10: and it hasn't been solved yet.
Speaker 1: Finding answers and resolution in cold cases requires persistence and patience.
Speaker 1: In the end, as one case was solved, the other
Speaker 1: heading in that direction, I hold on to hope that
Speaker 1: someday soon Dana Didham's family will get what they deserve justice.
Speaker 1: Subscribe and foul the show to keep up with bonus
Speaker 1: episodes coming soon. If you appreciate the work I do
Speaker 1: on Paper Ghosts, follow my other podcast, Crossing the line
Speaker 1: with em William Phelps, where I approach new cases each
Speaker 1: week in a similar fashion. I want to thank every
Speaker 1: one of my sources and those who took the time
Speaker 1: to help sit in for an interview or discuss the
Speaker 1: case with me. I can't say enough how much journalist
Speaker 1: Brandon Howard helped me out, and I thank him immensely
Speaker 1: for it. I also want to thank my Paper Ghost
Speaker 1: production team, Catherine Law, Rose Bachi, Matt Russell, Brandon Dicker.
Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts Season four is written and executive produced by
Speaker 1: me Em William Phelps, grip consulting by Rose Bachi, sound
Speaker 1: design by Matt Russeller, executive production by Catherine Law, and
Speaker 1: audio editing and mixing by Brandon Dicker Taka Boom Productions.
Speaker 1: The series theme number four four to two is written
Speaker 1: and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom mo