WEBVTT - Episode 8: “The Boogeymen” 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:10.200 In the last episode we heard a conversation with suspect 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:16.040 Jack Lney. I must admit my gaze is turned toward him. 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.200 But before continuing down that path, I needed to look 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:25.959 into another rather infamous serial killer who could potentially have 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:30.040 been tied to the murders of Dana Stidham and Shauna Garber, 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.520 one who was active at the time in the area. 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.760 At another point in the podcast, you heard about a 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:42.160 witness reporting a white van parked behind Dana Stidham's car 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:46.879 during the early evening hours after she left Phillip's grocery. 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:50.840 Two men were seen standing behind or near her car 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:55.200 and that van. In January twenty twenty four, I learned 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:57.920 from a law enforcement source that a white van had 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.520 been connected to Shauna Garber's mind as well. It was 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:06.920 part of an interview solving Shawna's case after thirty plus years, 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:11.760 which will impact soon. That van park behind Dana's carr 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:16.960 plagued my thoughts, bringing to mind one very specific high 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:25.600 profile psychopath, Larry Dwayne Hall. Hall is a serial killer, 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.760 yet he's rare and that he's never been convicted of 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.520 a murder. One university study on Hall claims he could 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:38.200 be responsible for upwards of fifty or more abductions, rapes, 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:42.160 and murders. The guy is doing life for the kidnapping 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:46.600 of fifteen year old Jessica Roach and transporting her from 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:51.960 Illinois to Indiana for purposes of sexual gratification, The subject 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:56.240 of the Apple TV Plus drama Blackbird, Larry Hall was 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.600 arrested in October nineteen ninety four and has been in 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:04.760 prison ever since. With his mutton choped sideburns and backwoods 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:09.000 Gomer Pyle like persona, Hall spent a considerable amount of 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:14.359 time behind the wheel of his light colored van, trolling 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:18.000 for victims throughout the Midwest and South during the late 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:22.960 eighties and early nineties. He claimed his extensive travel was 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:28.520 centered around the Civil War reenactments he participated in. Hall 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.720 often traveled with a man he was very close to, 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:38.320 a co conspirator in many of his crimes. Larry Hall's 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.240 method of abduction is very similar to what we saw 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:44.960 in Dana Stidham's case, and, according to some new information 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:49.639 I've received, the kidnapping and murder of SHAWNA. Garber. Hall 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:54.959 often tooled around suburban neighborhoods in his creepy van, following 0:02:55.000 --> 0:03:00.320 women riding bikes, jogging, or walking, then grabbing them just 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:03.880 the right moment. A young woman alone with her car 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:06.840 broken down on the side of the road would have 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:13.720 been Hall's ideal situation to strike. Detective Lorie Howard, who 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:17.320 you've heard throughout the podcast, interviewed Hall a few years 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:21.080 ago at Buckner Federal Prison in North Carolina. 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:24.880 I went and talked with Larry Hall, and I actually 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.600 was worried when I talked to him that he might 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.840 say that I did this just because he really wanted 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.160 to please me. You know, I knew when I went 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:39.880 in there he probably wanted me to stay, and I 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.640 knew that he wanted to talk, so I was kind 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:45.480 of concerned that he would do just the opposite of 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.440 what happened. I thought he might say, you know, yeah, 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:53.440 it's she's mine, and I was concerned about that. What 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:59.120 actually happened is I slid Seans photo across the table 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.200 to him, and he immediately looked at it and he said, 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:05.680 she's not mine. Said did you kill her? And he said, no, 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.520 she's not mine. So I was surprised. I really was 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:12.240 concerned that that's not what I would get. So I 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:14.920 knew immediately that Shawna was not his. 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:19.880 Hall warmed up to Laurie. He came across polite, talkative, 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:24.039 and rather open to the idea of discussing crimes he's 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:28.640 been accused of but has never been charged with. Detective 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:34.160 Howard pressed Hall on Dana Stidham, considering how the circumstances fit, 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:39.719 especially that light colored van report and two men lurking around, 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:45.359 potentially Hall and his partner. It can also not be 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:50.200 overlooked that Pea Ridge, Arkansas, a Civil War historical site, 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:55.360 is very close to where Dana's body was found. Hall, 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:59.240 for his part, denied having any part in Dana's abduction 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.279 and or or murder and said he was not even 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:07.200 in per Ridge near the time she disappeared. And did 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:08.240 you believe him? 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:13.560 Oh? Yeah, yeah. Larry, interestingly enough, has the reputation for 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:17.760 being a false confessionist, if you will, although I don't 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.479 believe that's the case by any stretch of the imagination, 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:22.760 but he has that label. 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:28.040 The thing that nagged at me about Larry Hall and 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:31.479 Dana's case is that Larry often worked with a partner 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.400 close to him, a guy very close to him, and 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:40.159 he also drove around in a van. The cliche and 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:45.159 two guys who could fit Larry's description and as partner 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.640 were seen in back of Dana along with a van 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.080 on the day she disappeared. So that worried me. So 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.080 what did he say about Dana Stidham's case. 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.480 He wasn't anywhere around during that timeframe, he said, I 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.440 wasn't there. There wasn't a re enactment. I actually checked 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:04.839 all of that, so there was no reason to put 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.160 him in the area at that time frame. 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:11.840 I've obtained never before heard interviews with Larry Hall and 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:16.400 delved deeply into his crimes on my other podcast, Crossing 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.360 the Line with m William Phelps, in a two part 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:25.640 special outlining the monster Larry Hall truly is. You see. 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:30.839 Hall had a pension for young girls, kids really and 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:35.159 he stuck mainly to the Midwest, Illinois and Indiana, his 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:40.640 home state, sometimes even going into Iowa. As you can 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:45.040 hear in this excerpt from that interview, he also groomed 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:46.640 some of his victims. 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.000 My friend Steve brought her with him a couple of 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:53.719 times in the car. She was a friend of mine. 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:58.400 The Steve's a friend mine named Steve knew her. She 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:03.480 was only twelve years old. She was missing too. He 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.760 was a little a little bit older than me. I 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:09.480 met him at a little shopping mall down there by 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:13.720 eleven in Indiana where the there's a bus. The bus 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:17.600 has come in sometimes. Now I met her a couple 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.040 of times, but I didn't know her mom or nothing. 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:22.840 I used to hang out with him in a little 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:27.640 park down there sometimes. You know, I don't remember. I 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:32.040 didn't know the last name, but Dabby, I believe that 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:35.040 I'm not potty. I can't can't probably remember. 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:41.360 The guy loved to play the ignorant card. But believe me, 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.880 he knew and he remembered all. 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:45.600 Of his victims. 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:50.800 These guys, they do not forget. That's one reason why 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:55.120 they sometimes take trophies, a little reminder of each and 0:07:55.160 --> 0:08:00.880 every one of their victims. As Detective Howard was interviewing Hall, 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:05.559 he brought up another unsolf case, a big one. 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:10.040 The other thing is he immediately turned around and told me, 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.600 but I did kill the Springfield three. 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:18.000 On June seventh, nineteen ninety two, the parents of eighteen 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:23.000 year old Stacy McCall contacted the Springfield, Missouri Police Department, 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:27.240 saying their daughter had disappeared from the home a forty 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:31.120 seven year old Cheryl Leavitt, along with Levitt and Levitt's 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:36.360 nineteen year old daughter, Suzanne Streeter. Upon officer's arrival, the 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:40.440 Leavitt house showed no signs a foced entry or a struggle, 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:45.040 but the three young women were gone, as if plucked 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.040 out of their lives in the middle of a normal day. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:57.319 All their personal property had been left behind, purses, clothing, money, cars, keys, cigarettes, 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:02.880 even the family dog. None of them were ever seen again. 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:07.400 And that I had reason to believe there might be 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:11.800 some validity to and I say that knowing that it's 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:15.679 not my case beyond what he told me. But I 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:20.120 know in his van there was evidence that had a 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:24.559 map that had this area that had Branson that had 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.080 an X on it. I know there was evidence to 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:31.720 coroborate that, and there was a reenactment for those particular murders, 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.240 but there wasn't anything in the van. It would include 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:36.280 Dana or Shawna. 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:43.040 Larry Dwayne Hall is evil incarnate, but I don't think 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.319 the evidence supports him being the evil I have been 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:51.080 chasing throughout this season. The reason Larry Hall has never 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:55.800 faced murder charges is because, as horrible as it sounds 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.320 the guy was able to hide the bodies of his 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:04.280 victims very well, and as you know, neither Dana or 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:08.800 Shauna were really hidden. With all this sevenance in hand, 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:13.959 I could confidently exclude Larry Hall as their killer and 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:24.760 continued down the road of Jack Lenny. Previously on Paper. 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.760 Ghosts, it seems to check all the boxes for a 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:31.280 sexual predator going into the store with a hood on 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:36.800 their face, standing behind the women, poggling them, making circles 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:40.360 around the store, sneaking up behind them, waiting for them 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.280 in the parking lot after work, following them on the highway, 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.560 trying to pull them over, in some cases, groping them. 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:52.440 I just remember being in the basement of this individual's 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:56.520 house and there had to been like over one hundred 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.600 schools of different cords. I mean, I don't know who 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.640 keeps chords. I don't keep chords, but it just was 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:03.480 pretty ominous. 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:07.920 It's extremely difficult, but it's not impossible. None of them 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.680 were impossible. It was impossible to have this self trying, 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.520 but that's gonna be solved, and it will be. 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.440 My name is Emma William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.760 and author of more than forty true crime books. This 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:34.840 is season four of Paper Ghosts the Ozarks. In getting 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.960 Jack Lenny on the phone, I saw an opportunity, maybe 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:42.200 the only one I would get. Go at him hard. 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:47.240 I told myself, hold nothing back, put the evidence from 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:51.080 Dana's and Shawna's cases on the table, and see how 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:56.680 he responds. Like Brandon Howard, the journalist you've heard throughout 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:00.280 the podcast, who I might add, has built a wrong 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:03.080 case against Lenny over the course of many years and 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:06.920 helped me more than I can express here. I flipped 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:11.160 back and forth throughout my investigation. I couldn't stop wondering 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:15.480 if all this circumstantial evidence pointing to LENNI was nothing 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:19.920 more than a series of coincidences and an overactive sense 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:25.320 of suspicion centered around a creep. I think you have 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:29.640 to second guess yourself if you're doing due diligence, And 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.120 I was reminded that law enforcement dropped the guy as 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:37.400 a suspect in nineteen ninety five and never spoke to 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:44.000 or pursued him again. Talking to Lenny, however, began to 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:48.040 change my mind, and it's hard not to take what 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:52.960 happened during our conversations and the events that took place afterward, 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.920 as decades of pent up guilt finally leaving the body 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:02.200 of this cocky son of a bitch. I want to 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.720 go back to that phone call you heard at the 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.920 end of the last episode and pick up where we 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:12.120 left off. So you have nothing to do with Dana 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:13.160 Stidham's murder? 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:14.440 Hell no? 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:16.600 Did you know Danas Stidham? 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:18.200 Hell no? 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:23.760 There's the other case in Pineville, gray Stowe, Seana Garber murder. 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:27.400 What about her case? Any connection to her death? 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:28.960 Hell no. 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:36.280 Stark defiance and obvious anger, but within it an emphatic 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:41.079 how dare you sense of denial? At least at the 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:45.280 outset of our conversation. You were interviewed a few times 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.920 and brought in, and they searched your place and came 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.360 after you pretty damn hard? Am I right? 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:51.520 Yes? 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:56.720 Why was that? You think I have no worth? 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.760 Idea? They were? They were hunting for someone first. 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.040 There are a few ways to deal with a hostile source, 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.760 especially one who's a strong person of interest. I am 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.040 not a cop, clearly, and I do not solve murders. 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:19.200 My aim always is to develop new information and try 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:24.000 to help families find answers. Then I hand that information 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.880 off to those qualified to solve cases. Jack Lenny was 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.240 never going to like me, and I could not have 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:36.560 cared less so I could use that personal disdain to 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:40.880 my advantage. Repetition is a good way to get what 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:47.280 you want in situations like these. Did you kill Dana Stidham? 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:49.360 What do you think? 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:50.440 I think? 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:55.000 I don't know, which is why I'm asking either. His 0:14:55.120 --> 0:15:00.840 answers become ambiguous and suspicious to a fault. Why not 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:05.880 just say hell no again? Why the games? Why not say, look, 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.640 you have the wrong dude, I didn't do anything. How 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.920 can I help you? Why not hang up the damn phone? 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:19.320 After all, he knew I was recording the call. Now 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.560 if I might ask the Sheriff's office seemed to think 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:29.360 that you might have actually known Dana's Stidham. Why well, 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:34.600 I have reports and statements and lots of witnesses that 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:38.520 claim you hung around the Phillips grocery and that you 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:40.640 knew Dana Stidam. 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:41.280 I don't know. 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:45.200 What do you mean you don't know? Do you remember Dana? 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:46.400 She worked at the store. 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:47.760 No? 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.120 I have a problem with this. Are you certain you 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:52.880 didn't know her? 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:54.120 No? 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:59.400 Going back to his second interview with BCSO detectives Varner 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:03.000 and Sidor react, Lenny was the one who brought Dana 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:07.840 up and knew exactly who she was. But why would 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.600 they go after you so aggressively if you didn't at 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.000 least know her or run into her at the store? 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:18.480 I mean, because they were looking for an escapegoat. I 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.880 thought I would be the one because I was all 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:22.320 over the. 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:27.720 Stre Okay, So you worked construction or something like that, 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.800 and you were traveling all around Bella Vista area at 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:39.800 the time. Is that correct? Is that what you're saying? Hello, 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:44.280 This theme of Lenny going quiet on me would continue 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:52.520 until something extremely bizarre happened. No, so you didn't work 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:57.400 in the area, yes, but not then that's not true, 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.640 wasn't it In nineteen eighty nine, nineteen nine? You were 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.040 working in and around Bella Vista. 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:06.160 You're correct? 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:10.320 Okay, So you're saying that you had nothing to do 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:14.000 with Dana's abduction and murder. Then is that your statement? 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.880 Is that your response? You don't know who killed her? 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:21.600 Not done, I don't know where she was killed. 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:24.960 For a guy who had started out our phone call 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:29.520 by saying he knew nothing about Dana's murder. I began 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:33.359 to understand that his temperament wouldn't allow him to walk 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:38.639 away without explaining himself. The reports, your interviews with the 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.359 Benton County Sheriff's Office, the forensic evidence found in your vehicle, 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.760 the cables and bindings found in your house. You were 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.040 at the Phillips a lot in fact, on the day 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:52.760 she went missing, and you were reported as possibly talking 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:57.399 to Dana in the parking lot. I got to ask, again, 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:02.919 did you know Dana? What from? I have no earthly 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:08.199 idea to knowing her someone, and then she's later found murdered. 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:11.960 I mean, they seem to think that you were their guy. 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.679 I'm just trying to explain all of these coincidences lining 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.560 up against you. Sure you didn't see her the day 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:24.040 she went missing? No, so this is all coincidental, then circumstance, 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:26.320 you had nothing to do with danas Didham's murder. 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:27.120 No? 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:32.720 Are you sure about that, because the evidence says otherwise. 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:39.359 As much to do murder as you did. Did you 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:41.159 have anything to do with their murder? 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:45.760 It became increasingly clear as we chatted that the mere 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:52.040 mention of Dana's case triggered a strong reaction, especially when 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:57.080 I began to touch on the evidence, and yet he 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.879 would not hang up on me. I live on the 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:05.000 East Coast. I wouldn't have had the opportunity, but you did, sir. 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:10.640 All right, Africa, Well, let's. 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.520 Talk about Panama. You went down there. Did you have 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:15.880 some trouble while there, while you were in the service 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.680 with a sex worker? What happened there? 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:25.200 I remember, I got a miss understanding. 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:31.879 I a long trouble down there with a misunderstanding some 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:37.680 no one, no one of the president, Kevin annoyed. 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:45.119 Empower a misunderstanding, he says. If you recall, I spoke 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.639 to a sheriff earlier in the podcast who investigated the 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:52.720 Panama allegations, and he told me Lenny beat a sex 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:57.520 worker while stationed in Panama. A little more than a misunderstanding. 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:00.440 I mean, you were accused of beating girl. 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.600 I thought you just wanted to know about Dais still 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:07.400 or whatever. But you covered them all when I told 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:08.640 you I had nothing. 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:08.960 To do with it. 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:11.080 Are you absolutely certain about that? 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:14.200 I guess I wasn't there. 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:16.159 But you were there on the day she went missing 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.119 at the Phillips grocery. That's pretty damn clear. 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:24.160 It has been so long ago. I don't even think 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:24.440 about it. 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:27.280 So you're saying that you were never at the Phillips 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:29.160 that day. Why would people place you there? 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:29.400 Then? 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:33.040 What is the evidence backing you up when others say different? 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:38.919 My word, your ward alone. Could you talk to me 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:42.280 about July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty nine, what you did 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:42.920 on that day? 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:48.959 I could I remember them? 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:51.760 So the Sheriff's office came after you and questioned you 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:54.359 hard to tell you that all these women at the 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:58.239 grocery are accusing you of sexual harassment, following women on 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:03.480 the way out, following them in your card. He does 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:07.359 not deny any of the sexual harassment he's been accused of. 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:13.120 I moved on to a subject essential to my investigation, 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:18.040 placing Lenny at the crime scene. I wanted to get 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:20.520 him to say he knew where it was because I 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:24.960 knew he did. What about Beal Lane, the crime scene 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:29.000 up there by Ozark Beverage where Dana was found. Do 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:30.199 you know where that is? 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:31.960 Oh? What you mean? 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:34.200 You don't know that area? 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:36.439 Really? 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:40.240 Remember what he says there? It'll come back into play 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:45.720 later on in the episode. At this point in our conversation, 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:51.440 something really odd happens. He starts breathing heavily. Any mention 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:55.280 of the crime scene, I realized struck a nerve. I'd 0:21:55.320 --> 0:22:05.280 found an area of inquiry that rattled him. Are you 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:05.880 still there? 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:09.760 Are you still there? 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:14.719 I'm here? Are you all right? You're feeling okay? Do 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:16.320 you remember that time. 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:20.679 I forgot about? 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:24.800 Lots of people think you killed that girl. You've never 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:25.920 been up to be elane. 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:29.720 I told you. 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:34.080 No again, Remember what he says for a second time. No, 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:37.879 he'd never been up to be a lane. Not where 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:40.639 is it? Or I don't know where that area of 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:46.040 town is, but a resounding no. This answer will become 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:49.920 very important when we look at what happens the day 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:54.120 after I speak to Lenny. Lots of people say different. 0:22:56.600 --> 0:22:58.080 I don't think wherever they want to. 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:03.200 Let's talk about your ex wife. She was interviewed by 0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:08.720 the Sheriff's office. She told him a few fairly incriminating 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:12.480 things about you, like you were acting strange around the 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:16.280 time Dana went missing, and around that time when she 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:21.240 was found her body murdered. You got physically ill once 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.639 when her case was mentioned on TV. How do we 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:31.760 explain that you there? 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:40.399 Thanks for that mass the divorce she was scared of you. 0:23:40.680 --> 0:23:43.600 That's what I believe. What kind of person was your 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:48.919 ex wife? He describes her by using an insulting racial slur, 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:52.879 which I will not allow in this show. So I 0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:58.520 changed course. You spoke with police twice. You admitted seeing 0:23:58.800 --> 0:24:02.639 Dana that day in the parking lot. You said you 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:05.840 might have known her. You tell me you didn't know her, 0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:12.000 which is it? No, according to the reports, you were 0:24:12.040 --> 0:24:15.800 well aware of this case as it was happening. After 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:18.000 they questioned you a second time, they asked you to 0:24:18.000 --> 0:24:21.760 take a polygraph. There was a lot of activity around 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:25.720 you for a time there. They were really hot on you. 0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:29.760 You know this. They came at you hard. Did you 0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:42.399 kill Danas Stidham? You there, speak to me? He doesn't 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:45.160 say anything for about two minutes. 0:24:46.520 --> 0:24:52.760 Then you got all the information. Well why did you 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:56.439 ask me if you already knew? Uh? Stupid, wasn't it. 0:24:56.880 --> 0:24:59.240 I'm just asking questions. You don't have to talk. 0:24:59.080 --> 0:25:03.120 To me, understandfory too. 0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:07.720 I wanted to be certain he was consenting to the 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:11.080 interview as part of the podcast, so I put it 0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:14.760 out there again. Well, I'm recording this from my podcast 0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:15.760 paper Ghosts. 0:25:16.600 --> 0:25:18.720 I don't care you. 0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:19.560 Kill that girl? 0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:21.399 Didn't. 0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:24.800 It's important at this stage to go back to Shauna 0:25:24.840 --> 0:25:28.920 Garber's case. In the last episode, you heard a vulgar 0:25:29.240 --> 0:25:34.119 caller who was later allegedly identified as Jack Lenny, threatened 0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:37.280 to cut off the breasts of the woman on the 0:25:37.320 --> 0:25:41.440 other end of the phone. In early twenty twenty four, 0:25:42.280 --> 0:25:47.080 law enforcement revealed to me that Shauna Garber's killer cut 0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:52.320 her breasts off after binding her and injecting her with 0:25:52.400 --> 0:25:58.199 a hot shot an intentional forced overdose of heroin. No 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:05.680 knowledge of what happened to Shanna Garber. Shauna Garber, No, 0:26:07.320 --> 0:26:10.719 I don't know. You never picked her up, hitch hiking, 0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:18.040 No murder, She was likely hitchhiking, was murdered. Her body 0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:22.400 dumped on Oscar Tally Road in Pineville Anderson, Missouri. You're 0:26:22.440 --> 0:26:29.840 familiar with that area. Oh, several minutes went by with 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:39.760 nothing but heavy breathing. Did you kill Shauna Garber? 0:26:41.520 --> 0:26:41.760 No? 0:26:43.960 --> 0:26:46.119 I got a sense he was beginning to feel the 0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:49.880 weight of what we were talking about. It was clearly 0:26:50.320 --> 0:26:54.040 worrying him to dredge all of this up. It had 0:26:54.080 --> 0:26:58.680 been thirty one year since law enforcement spoke to Lenny. Here. 0:26:59.000 --> 0:27:03.919 Now three decades later, he's having a visceral reaction, a 0:27:03.960 --> 0:27:07.960 panic attack. Essentially at the mere mention of these cases, 0:27:12.480 --> 0:27:26.320 You're okay, this interview bothering you. And then as things escalate, 0:27:26.640 --> 0:27:33.280 with his breathing increasing, he does something incredible, something in fact, 0:27:33.760 --> 0:27:36.200 you've heard him do before, when the murders of two 0:27:36.280 --> 0:27:50.239 young women were put right in his face. When we 0:27:50.280 --> 0:27:53.480 are anxious or stressed, we feel it in our gut. 0:27:54.200 --> 0:28:00.760 It's simple physiology. We've all been there, uncomfortable situationations, and 0:28:00.960 --> 0:28:05.480