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Speaker 1: In the last episode we heard a conversation with suspect

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Speaker 1: Jack Lney. I must admit my gaze is turned toward him.

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Speaker 1: But before continuing down that path, I needed to look

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Speaker 1: into another rather infamous serial killer who could potentially have

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Speaker 1: been tied to the murders of Dana Stidham and Shauna Garber,

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Speaker 1: one who was active at the time in the area.

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Speaker 1: At another point in the podcast, you heard about a

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Speaker 1: witness reporting a white van parked behind Dana Stidham's car

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Speaker 1: during the early evening hours after she left Phillip's grocery.

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Speaker 1: Two men were seen standing behind or near her car

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Speaker 1: and that van. In January twenty twenty four, I learned

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Speaker 1: from a law enforcement source that a white van had

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Speaker 1: been connected to Shauna Garber's mind as well. It was

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Speaker 1: part of an interview solving Shawna's case after thirty plus years,

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Speaker 1: which will impact soon. That van park behind Dana's carr

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Speaker 1: plagued my thoughts, bringing to mind one very specific high

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Speaker 1: profile psychopath, Larry Dwayne Hall. Hall is a serial killer,

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Speaker 1: yet he's rare and that he's never been convicted of

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Speaker 1: a murder. One university study on Hall claims he could

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Speaker 1: be responsible for upwards of fifty or more abductions, rapes,

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Speaker 1: and murders. The guy is doing life for the kidnapping

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Speaker 1: of fifteen year old Jessica Roach and transporting her from

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Speaker 1: Illinois to Indiana for purposes of sexual gratification, The subject

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Speaker 1: of the Apple TV Plus drama Blackbird, Larry Hall was

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Speaker 1: arrested in October nineteen ninety four and has been in

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Speaker 1: prison ever since. With his mutton choped sideburns and backwoods

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Speaker 1: Gomer Pyle like persona, Hall spent a considerable amount of

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Speaker 1: time behind the wheel of his light colored van, trolling

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Speaker 1: for victims throughout the Midwest and South during the late

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Speaker 1: eighties and early nineties. He claimed his extensive travel was

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Speaker 1: centered around the Civil War reenactments he participated in. Hall

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Speaker 1: often traveled with a man he was very close to,

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Speaker 1: a co conspirator in many of his crimes. Larry Hall's

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Speaker 1: method of abduction is very similar to what we saw

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Speaker 1: in Dana Stidham's case, and, according to some new information

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Speaker 1: I've received, the kidnapping and murder of SHAWNA. Garber. Hall

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Speaker 1: often tooled around suburban neighborhoods in his creepy van, following

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Speaker 1: women riding bikes, jogging, or walking, then grabbing them just

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Speaker 1: the right moment. A young woman alone with her car

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Speaker 1: broken down on the side of the road would have

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Speaker 1: been Hall's ideal situation to strike. Detective Lorie Howard, who

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Speaker 1: you've heard throughout the podcast, interviewed Hall a few years

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Speaker 1: ago at Buckner Federal Prison in North Carolina.

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Speaker 2: I went and talked with Larry Hall, and I actually

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Speaker 2: was worried when I talked to him that he might

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Speaker 2: say that I did this just because he really wanted

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Speaker 2: to please me. You know, I knew when I went

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Speaker 2: in there he probably wanted me to stay, and I

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Speaker 2: knew that he wanted to talk, so I was kind

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Speaker 2: of concerned that he would do just the opposite of

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Speaker 2: what happened. I thought he might say, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's she's mine, and I was concerned about that. What

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Speaker 2: actually happened is I slid Seans photo across the table

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Speaker 2: to him, and he immediately looked at it and he said,

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Speaker 2: she's not mine. Said did you kill her? And he said, no,

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Speaker 2: she's not mine. So I was surprised. I really was

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Speaker 2: concerned that that's not what I would get. So I

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Speaker 2: knew immediately that Shawna was not his.

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Speaker 1: Hall warmed up to Laurie. He came across polite, talkative,

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Speaker 1: and rather open to the idea of discussing crimes he's

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Speaker 1: been accused of but has never been charged with. Detective

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Speaker 1: Howard pressed Hall on Dana Stidham, considering how the circumstances fit,

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Speaker 1: especially that light colored van report and two men lurking around,

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Speaker 1: potentially Hall and his partner. It can also not be

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Speaker 1: overlooked that Pea Ridge, Arkansas, a Civil War historical site,

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Speaker 1: is very close to where Dana's body was found. Hall,

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Speaker 1: for his part, denied having any part in Dana's abduction

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Speaker 1: and or or murder and said he was not even

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Speaker 1: in per Ridge near the time she disappeared. And did

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Speaker 1: you believe him?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, yeah. Larry, interestingly enough, has the reputation for

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Speaker 2: being a false confessionist, if you will, although I don't

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Speaker 2: believe that's the case by any stretch of the imagination,

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Speaker 2: but he has that label.

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Speaker 1: The thing that nagged at me about Larry Hall and

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Speaker 1: Dana's case is that Larry often worked with a partner

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Speaker 1: close to him, a guy very close to him, and

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Speaker 1: he also drove around in a van. The cliche and

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Speaker 1: two guys who could fit Larry's description and as partner

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Speaker 1: were seen in back of Dana along with a van

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Speaker 1: on the day she disappeared. So that worried me. So

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Speaker 1: what did he say about Dana Stidham's case.

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Speaker 2: He wasn't anywhere around during that timeframe, he said, I

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Speaker 2: wasn't there. There wasn't a re enactment. I actually checked

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Speaker 2: all of that, so there was no reason to put

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Speaker 2: him in the area at that time frame.

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Speaker 1: I've obtained never before heard interviews with Larry Hall and

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Speaker 1: delved deeply into his crimes on my other podcast, Crossing

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Speaker 1: the Line with m William Phelps, in a two part

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Speaker 1: special outlining the monster Larry Hall truly is. You see.

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Speaker 1: Hall had a pension for young girls, kids really and

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Speaker 1: he stuck mainly to the Midwest, Illinois and Indiana, his

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Speaker 1: home state, sometimes even going into Iowa. As you can

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Speaker 1: hear in this excerpt from that interview, he also groomed

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Speaker 1: some of his victims.

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Speaker 3: My friend Steve brought her with him a couple of

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Speaker 3: times in the car. She was a friend of mine.

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Speaker 3: The Steve's a friend mine named Steve knew her. She

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Speaker 3: was only twelve years old. She was missing too. He

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Speaker 3: was a little a little bit older than me. I

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Speaker 3: met him at a little shopping mall down there by

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Speaker 3: eleven in Indiana where the there's a bus. The bus

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Speaker 3: has come in sometimes. Now I met her a couple

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Speaker 3: of times, but I didn't know her mom or nothing.

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Speaker 3: I used to hang out with him in a little

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Speaker 3: park down there sometimes. You know, I don't remember. I

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Speaker 3: didn't know the last name, but Dabby, I believe that

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Speaker 3: I'm not potty. I can't can't probably remember.

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Speaker 1: The guy loved to play the ignorant card. But believe me,

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Speaker 1: he knew and he remembered all.

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Speaker 4: Of his victims.

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Speaker 1: These guys, they do not forget. That's one reason why

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Speaker 1: they sometimes take trophies, a little reminder of each and

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Speaker 1: every one of their victims. As Detective Howard was interviewing Hall,

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Speaker 1: he brought up another unsolf case, a big one.

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Speaker 2: The other thing is he immediately turned around and told me,

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Speaker 2: but I did kill the Springfield three.

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Speaker 1: On June seventh, nineteen ninety two, the parents of eighteen

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Speaker 1: year old Stacy McCall contacted the Springfield, Missouri Police Department,

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Speaker 1: saying their daughter had disappeared from the home a forty

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Speaker 1: seven year old Cheryl Leavitt, along with Levitt and Levitt's

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Speaker 1: nineteen year old daughter, Suzanne Streeter. Upon officer's arrival, the

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Speaker 1: Leavitt house showed no signs a foced entry or a struggle,

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Speaker 1: but the three young women were gone, as if plucked

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Speaker 1: out of their lives in the middle of a normal day.

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Speaker 1: All their personal property had been left behind, purses, clothing, money, cars, keys, cigarettes,

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Speaker 1: even the family dog. None of them were ever seen again.

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Speaker 2: And that I had reason to believe there might be

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Speaker 2: some validity to and I say that knowing that it's

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Speaker 2: not my case beyond what he told me. But I

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Speaker 2: know in his van there was evidence that had a

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Speaker 2: map that had this area that had Branson that had

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Speaker 2: an X on it. I know there was evidence to

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Speaker 2: coroborate that, and there was a reenactment for those particular murders,

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Speaker 2: but there wasn't anything in the van. It would include

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Speaker 2: Dana or Shawna.

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Speaker 1: Larry Dwayne Hall is evil incarnate, but I don't think

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Speaker 1: the evidence supports him being the evil I have been

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Speaker 1: chasing throughout this season. The reason Larry Hall has never

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Speaker 1: faced murder charges is because, as horrible as it sounds

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Speaker 1: the guy was able to hide the bodies of his

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Speaker 1: victims very well, and as you know, neither Dana or

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Speaker 1: Shauna were really hidden. With all this sevenance in hand,

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Speaker 1: I could confidently exclude Larry Hall as their killer and

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Speaker 1: continued down the road of Jack Lenny. Previously on Paper.

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Speaker 5: Ghosts, it seems to check all the boxes for a

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Speaker 5: sexual predator going into the store with a hood on

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Speaker 5: their face, standing behind the women, poggling them, making circles

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Speaker 5: around the store, sneaking up behind them, waiting for them

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Speaker 5: in the parking lot after work, following them on the highway,

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Speaker 5: trying to pull them over, in some cases, groping them.

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Speaker 6: I just remember being in the basement of this individual's

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Speaker 6: house and there had to been like over one hundred

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Speaker 6: schools of different cords. I mean, I don't know who

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Speaker 6: keeps chords. I don't keep chords, but it just was

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Speaker 6: pretty ominous.

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Speaker 2: It's extremely difficult, but it's not impossible. None of them

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Speaker 2: were impossible. It was impossible to have this self trying,

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Speaker 2: but that's gonna be solved, and it will be.

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Speaker 1: My name is Emma William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist

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Speaker 1: and author of more than forty true crime books. This

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Speaker 1: is season four of Paper Ghosts the Ozarks. In getting

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Speaker 1: Jack Lenny on the phone, I saw an opportunity, maybe

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Speaker 1: the only one I would get. Go at him hard.

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Speaker 1: I told myself, hold nothing back, put the evidence from

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Speaker 1: Dana's and Shawna's cases on the table, and see how

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Speaker 1: he responds. Like Brandon Howard, the journalist you've heard throughout

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Speaker 1: the podcast, who I might add, has built a wrong

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Speaker 1: case against Lenny over the course of many years and

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Speaker 1: helped me more than I can express here. I flipped

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Speaker 1: back and forth throughout my investigation. I couldn't stop wondering

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Speaker 1: if all this circumstantial evidence pointing to LENNI was nothing

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Speaker 1: more than a series of coincidences and an overactive sense

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Speaker 1: of suspicion centered around a creep. I think you have

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Speaker 1: to second guess yourself if you're doing due diligence, And

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Speaker 1: I was reminded that law enforcement dropped the guy as

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Speaker 1: a suspect in nineteen ninety five and never spoke to

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Speaker 1: or pursued him again. Talking to Lenny, however, began to

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Speaker 1: change my mind, and it's hard not to take what

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Speaker 1: happened during our conversations and the events that took place afterward,

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Speaker 1: as decades of pent up guilt finally leaving the body

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Speaker 1: of this cocky son of a bitch. I want to

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Speaker 1: go back to that phone call you heard at the

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Speaker 1: end of the last episode and pick up where we

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Speaker 1: left off. So you have nothing to do with Dana

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Speaker 1: Stidham's murder?

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Speaker 7: Hell no?

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Speaker 1: Did you know Danas Stidham?

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Speaker 7: Hell no?

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Speaker 1: There's the other case in Pineville, gray Stowe, Seana Garber murder.

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Speaker 1: What about her case? Any connection to her death?

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Speaker 7: Hell no.

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Speaker 1: Stark defiance and obvious anger, but within it an emphatic

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Speaker 1: how dare you sense of denial? At least at the

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Speaker 1: outset of our conversation. You were interviewed a few times

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Speaker 1: and brought in, and they searched your place and came

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Speaker 1: after you pretty damn hard? Am I right?

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Speaker 7: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Why was that? You think I have no worth?

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Speaker 7: Idea? They were? They were hunting for someone first.

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Speaker 1: There are a few ways to deal with a hostile source,

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Speaker 1: especially one who's a strong person of interest. I am

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Speaker 1: not a cop, clearly, and I do not solve murders.

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Speaker 1: My aim always is to develop new information and try

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Speaker 1: to help families find answers. Then I hand that information

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Speaker 1: off to those qualified to solve cases. Jack Lenny was

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Speaker 1: never going to like me, and I could not have

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Speaker 1: cared less so I could use that personal disdain to

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Speaker 1: my advantage. Repetition is a good way to get what

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Speaker 1: you want in situations like these. Did you kill Dana Stidham?

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Speaker 7: What do you think?

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Speaker 3: I think?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, which is why I'm asking either. His

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Speaker 1: answers become ambiguous and suspicious to a fault. Why not

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Speaker 1: just say hell no again? Why the games? Why not say, look,

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Speaker 1: you have the wrong dude, I didn't do anything. How

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Speaker 1: can I help you? Why not hang up the damn phone?

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Speaker 1: After all, he knew I was recording the call. Now

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Speaker 1: if I might ask the Sheriff's office seemed to think

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Speaker 1: that you might have actually known Dana's Stidham. Why well,

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Speaker 1: I have reports and statements and lots of witnesses that

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Speaker 1: claim you hung around the Phillips grocery and that you

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Speaker 1: knew Dana Stidam.

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Speaker 7: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean you don't know? Do you remember Dana?

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Speaker 1: She worked at the store.

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Speaker 7: No?

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Speaker 1: I have a problem with this. Are you certain you

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Speaker 1: didn't know her?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: Going back to his second interview with BCSO detectives Varner

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Speaker 1: and Sidor react, Lenny was the one who brought Dana

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Speaker 1: up and knew exactly who she was. But why would

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Speaker 1: they go after you so aggressively if you didn't at

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Speaker 1: least know her or run into her at the store?

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Speaker 7: I mean, because they were looking for an escapegoat. I

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Speaker 7: thought I would be the one because I was all

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Speaker 7: over the.

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Speaker 1: Stre Okay, So you worked construction or something like that,

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Speaker 1: and you were traveling all around Bella Vista area at

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Speaker 1: the time. Is that correct? Is that what you're saying? Hello,

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Speaker 1: This theme of Lenny going quiet on me would continue

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Speaker 1: until something extremely bizarre happened. No, so you didn't work

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Speaker 1: in the area, yes, but not then that's not true,

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Speaker 1: wasn't it In nineteen eighty nine, nineteen nine? You were

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Speaker 1: working in and around Bella Vista.

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Speaker 7: You're correct?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So you're saying that you had nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with Dana's abduction and murder. Then is that your statement?

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Speaker 1: Is that your response? You don't know who killed her?

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Speaker 7: Not done, I don't know where she was killed.

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Speaker 1: For a guy who had started out our phone call

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Speaker 1: by saying he knew nothing about Dana's murder. I began

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Speaker 1: to understand that his temperament wouldn't allow him to walk

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Speaker 1: away without explaining himself. The reports, your interviews with the

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Speaker 1: Benton County Sheriff's Office, the forensic evidence found in your vehicle,

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Speaker 1: the cables and bindings found in your house. You were

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Speaker 1: at the Phillips a lot in fact, on the day

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Speaker 1: she went missing, and you were reported as possibly talking

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Speaker 1: to Dana in the parking lot. I got to ask, again,

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Speaker 1: did you know Dana? What from? I have no earthly

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Speaker 1: idea to knowing her someone, and then she's later found murdered.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they seem to think that you were their guy.

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to explain all of these coincidences lining

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Speaker 1: up against you. Sure you didn't see her the day

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Speaker 1: she went missing? No, so this is all coincidental, then circumstance,

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Speaker 1: you had nothing to do with danas Didham's murder.

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Speaker 7: No?

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Speaker 1: Are you sure about that, because the evidence says otherwise.

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Speaker 8: As much to do murder as you did. Did you

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Speaker 8: have anything to do with their murder?

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Speaker 1: It became increasingly clear as we chatted that the mere

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Speaker 1: mention of Dana's case triggered a strong reaction, especially when

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Speaker 1: I began to touch on the evidence, and yet he

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Speaker 1: would not hang up on me. I live on the

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Speaker 1: East Coast. I wouldn't have had the opportunity, but you did, sir.

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Speaker 7: All right, Africa, Well, let's.

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Speaker 1: Talk about Panama. You went down there. Did you have

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Speaker 1: some trouble while there, while you were in the service

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Speaker 1: with a sex worker? What happened there?

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Speaker 7: I remember, I got a miss understanding.

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Speaker 8: I a long trouble down there with a misunderstanding some

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Speaker 8: no one, no one of the president, Kevin annoyed.

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Speaker 1: Empower a misunderstanding, he says. If you recall, I spoke

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Speaker 1: to a sheriff earlier in the podcast who investigated the

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Speaker 1: Panama allegations, and he told me Lenny beat a sex

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Speaker 1: worker while stationed in Panama. A little more than a misunderstanding.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you were accused of beating girl.

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Speaker 8: I thought you just wanted to know about Dais still

290
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,400
Speaker 8: or whatever. But you covered them all when I told

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Speaker 8: you I had nothing.

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Speaker 7: To do with it.

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Speaker 1: Are you absolutely certain about that?

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Speaker 7: I guess I wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: But you were there on the day she went missing

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Speaker 1: at the Phillips grocery. That's pretty damn clear.

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Speaker 7: It has been so long ago. I don't even think

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Speaker 7: about it.

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Speaker 1: So you're saying that you were never at the Phillips

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Speaker 1: that day. Why would people place you there?

301
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Speaker 7: Then?

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00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,040
Speaker 1: What is the evidence backing you up when others say different?

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00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,919
Speaker 1: My word, your ward alone. Could you talk to me

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00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 1: about July twenty fifth, nineteen eighty nine, what you did

305
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:42,920
Speaker 1: on that day?

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Speaker 8: I could I remember them?

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Speaker 1: So the Sheriff's office came after you and questioned you

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Speaker 1: hard to tell you that all these women at the

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Speaker 1: grocery are accusing you of sexual harassment, following women on

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Speaker 1: the way out, following them in your card. He does

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00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 1: not deny any of the sexual harassment he's been accused of.

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Speaker 1: I moved on to a subject essential to my investigation,

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Speaker 1: placing Lenny at the crime scene. I wanted to get

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Speaker 1: him to say he knew where it was because I

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00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 1: knew he did. What about Beal Lane, the crime scene

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00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 1: up there by Ozark Beverage where Dana was found. Do

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00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:30,199
Speaker 1: you know where that is?

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Speaker 7: Oh? What you mean?

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00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,200
Speaker 1: You don't know that area?

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Speaker 7: Really?

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Speaker 1: Remember what he says there? It'll come back into play

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Speaker 1: later on in the episode. At this point in our conversation,

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Speaker 1: something really odd happens. He starts breathing heavily. Any mention

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Speaker 1: of the crime scene, I realized struck a nerve. I'd

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00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: found an area of inquiry that rattled him. Are you

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00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:05,880
Speaker 1: still there?

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Speaker 7: Are you still there?

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00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,719
Speaker 1: I'm here? Are you all right? You're feeling okay? Do

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00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 1: you remember that time.

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Speaker 7: I forgot about?

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Speaker 1: Lots of people think you killed that girl. You've never

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Speaker 1: been up to be elane.

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Speaker 7: I told you.

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Speaker 1: No again, Remember what he says for a second time. No,

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00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 1: he'd never been up to be a lane. Not where

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Speaker 1: is it? Or I don't know where that area of

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00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 1: town is, but a resounding no. This answer will become

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Speaker 1: very important when we look at what happens the day

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Speaker 1: after I speak to Lenny. Lots of people say different.

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Speaker 7: I don't think wherever they want to.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about your ex wife. She was interviewed by

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00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: the Sheriff's office. She told him a few fairly incriminating

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00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: things about you, like you were acting strange around the

344
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: time Dana went missing, and around that time when she

345
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 1: was found her body murdered. You got physically ill once

346
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 1: when her case was mentioned on TV. How do we

347
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 1: explain that you there?

348
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 7: Thanks for that mass the divorce she was scared of you.

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Speaker 1: That's what I believe. What kind of person was your

350
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 1: ex wife? He describes her by using an insulting racial slur,

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Speaker 1: which I will not allow in this show. So I

352
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: changed course. You spoke with police twice. You admitted seeing

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00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 1: Dana that day in the parking lot. You said you

354
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 1: might have known her. You tell me you didn't know her,

355
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: which is it? No, according to the reports, you were

356
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: well aware of this case as it was happening. After

357
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: they questioned you a second time, they asked you to

358
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: take a polygraph. There was a lot of activity around

359
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: you for a time there. They were really hot on you.

360
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: You know this. They came at you hard. Did you

361
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: kill Danas Stidham? You there, speak to me? He doesn't

362
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 1: say anything for about two minutes.

363
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 7: Then you got all the information. Well why did you

364
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 7: ask me if you already knew? Uh? Stupid, wasn't it.

365
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: I'm just asking questions. You don't have to talk.

366
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Speaker 7: To me, understandfory too.

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00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: I wanted to be certain he was consenting to the

368
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: interview as part of the podcast, so I put it

369
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: out there again. Well, I'm recording this from my podcast

370
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: paper Ghosts.

371
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Speaker 7: I don't care you.

372
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: Kill that girl?

373
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 7: Didn't.

374
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: It's important at this stage to go back to Shauna

375
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: Garber's case. In the last episode, you heard a vulgar

376
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: caller who was later allegedly identified as Jack Lenny, threatened

377
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: to cut off the breasts of the woman on the

378
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: other end of the phone. In early twenty twenty four,

379
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: law enforcement revealed to me that Shauna Garber's killer cut

380
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: her breasts off after binding her and injecting her with

381
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 1: a hot shot an intentional forced overdose of heroin. No

382
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: knowledge of what happened to Shanna Garber. Shauna Garber, No,

383
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,719
Speaker 1: I don't know. You never picked her up, hitch hiking,

384
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: No murder, She was likely hitchhiking, was murdered. Her body

385
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 1: dumped on Oscar Tally Road in Pineville Anderson, Missouri. You're

386
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: familiar with that area. Oh, several minutes went by with

387
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: nothing but heavy breathing. Did you kill Shauna Garber?

388
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 7: No?

389
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: I got a sense he was beginning to feel the

390
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 1: weight of what we were talking about. It was clearly

391
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: worrying him to dredge all of this up. It had

392
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 1: been thirty one year since law enforcement spoke to Lenny. Here.

393
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: Now three decades later, he's having a visceral reaction, a

394
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: panic attack. Essentially at the mere mention of these cases,

395
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: You're okay, this interview bothering you. And then as things escalate,

396
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: with his breathing increasing, he does something incredible, something in fact,

397
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: you've heard him do before, when the murders of two

398
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:50,239
Speaker 1: young women were put right in his face. When we

399
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: are anxious or stressed, we feel it in our gut.

400
00:27:54,200 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: It's simple physiology. We've all been there, uncomfortable situationations, and

401
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: dare I say feelings of guilt can exacerbate a condition

402
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,479
Speaker 1: known as stress nausea. We've been down this road before.

403
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: Within the investigation into Jack Linny, remember that back in

404
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, his ex wife told detective Danny Varner

405
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: that when Dana's case came on television one night, Lenny vomited.

406
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: As my conversation with Lenny continued, I could feel the

407
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: stress coming from the other end of the line. The

408
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: heavy breathing, odd silences, groaning noises, the fact that he

409
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: did not hang up on me. It all said something

410
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: about his disposition, personality, and attitude toward the murders of

411
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: Dana Stidham and Seanna Garber. Is this upsetting to you

412
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: to talk about. No, so there's no way you had

413
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: anything to do with Dana Didham's murder. All right, About

414
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: three minutes went by. He remained silent, but every once

415
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: in a while he'd let me know he was still

416
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: willing to talk. Still there, Yeah, you're doing all right there.

417
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: This thing bringing up a lot of old feeling.

418
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 7: I was sick.

419
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: There. It was the conversation had made him ill, not

420
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: the flu or a cold. Talking about this was making

421
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: Jack Lenny sick to his stomach. I did stop over

422
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: there at your house when I was in Arkansas over

423
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: the summer, but you weren't around, knocked on the door there,

424
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: So well, just letting you know, you know, just conversation.

425
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: There's no evidence that can tie you to Dana's murder.

426
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying? I just want to get

427
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: it straight with your You know what you're telling me.

428
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: Is there anything you'd like to say to her family?

429
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: Her mother just passed away?

430
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 7: Showed your mind.

431
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: Notice he doesn't say sorry to hear that, or show

432
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: any sympathy whatsoever. Instead, he takes the narcissistic route and

433
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: makes it about himself. I'm sorry to hear that. There's

434
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,239
Speaker 1: some people in law enforcement think you might be a

435
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: serial killer. What do you think of that? I don't

436
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: you think they'll ever find the person who killed Danas Didham?

437
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: You think the person is still alive. He had nothing

438
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: to do with her abduction.

439
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 7: Only time you have to tray it.

440
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: And you you've never been to Pineville, Missouri? Frequent in

441
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: that area? Oscar Tally Road? What Oscar Tally Road in

442
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: Pineville Anderson, Missouri?

443
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 7: Oh?

444
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: Not true, he told the BCSO he used to pass

445
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: by the area all the time when he lived in Missouri.

446
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: I was curious about a phone call. I have a

447
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: report of a girl who took a phone call. It's

448
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: a very vile phone call about a man who called

449
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: and said all sorts of disgusting sexual things. And then

450
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: they brought her in and they played her the tape

451
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: of your interview and six other guys, and she picked

452
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: you out of that lineup. Do you remember making that call?

453
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: That wasn't you? Do you want me to stop by

454
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: there next time I'm in the area and have a

455
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: chat with you in person?

456
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 2: No?

457
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: Are you done talking about this? Is there anything you'd

458
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: like to say? Five minutes went by without a response,

459
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: but I could hear him. He was nauseous and whimpering,

460
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: and if you listen closely, you can hear movement. He's

461
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: doing something. Any mention of the crime scenes produced the

462
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: biggest reaction. Just how big I was about to learn.

463
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 4: Mm hmmm, you are right, mhm, m hmm.

464
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 9: You okay, mhmm.

465
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: This subject seems to be upsetting to you.

466
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 9: Okay.

467
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: He was vomiting, but the guy still wouldn't hang up

468
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: on me. He blew his nose, threw up some more,

469
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: breathed heavily, but he stayed on the line, and he

470
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: had literally brought the phone with him into the bathroom.

471
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: Should we say goodbye now? Anything else you want to say?

472
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: This seems very upsetting to you. I'm gonna say goodbye now.

473
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: I'm not getting any response from you. Is there anything

474
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: you want to talk about? You have my number. I

475
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: hung up after about ten minutes of listening to him

476
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: breathing and trying to figure out his next move. And look,

477
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: at this point, I certainly have not proven he had

478
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 1: anything to do with either murder. The pressure I applied

479
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: during this call might seem aggressive, but he has harassed

480
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: women all his life. The fact that I gave it

481
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: back to this bully in a small way. Tough shit.

482
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: You want to taunt women, abuse women, harass them and

483
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: foul them, and stalk them and intimidate them. I Am

484
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: not going to hold back. This would not be the

485
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: last time I confronted Jack Lenny. After the call, I

486
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,959
Speaker 1: contacted the BCSO and let them know what had gone down.

487
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: Then I called Detective Laurie Howard and explained ending by saying, this, look,

488
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,479
Speaker 1: he's on the ropes. You had better get a few

489
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: investigators over there, like tomorrow to interview him. Laurie Howard,

490
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: along with Detective Ronda Wise and an observer, knocked on

491
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: Lenny's door the following day, and you know what a

492
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: difference twenty four hours can make. I obtained a recording

493
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 1: of the interview Laurie Howard conducted with Jack Lenny the

494
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,439
Speaker 1: day after I spoke to him. However, because Lenny did

495
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: not consent to me using it as he had from

496
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: my calls with him, I need to summarize, so.

497
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 10: I need to know if I can pick your brain.

498
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 2: I'm here to talk about a gal by the name

499
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 2: of Shawn at Barber. I'm hoping you can help me go.

500
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 1: Back because I'm After introducing herself, Detective Howard mentioned Shauna Garber,

501
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 1: which was her doorway into what Lenny had to say

502
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: about Dana. Lenny used the word scapegoat yet again. What's

503
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: important is that he sounds different. He's laughing and joking,

504
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: being a smart ass, almost gloating when he talks to Laurie.

505
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: Laurie asks him, if you didn't know Shauna or Dana,

506
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: why did the BCSO just randomly pick you to drag

507
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: in for an interview. He says, quote, I was at

508
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: the Phillips grocery store a lot. Laurie then tells Lenny

509
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: the BCSO has his DNA, which he interprets as a

510
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: sample he gave them back in the day. She clarified

511
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: by saying she believed that they had found his DNA

512
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: on Dana. He shrugged off the statement. He then mentioned

513
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: that I had called him the day before, referring to

514
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: me as a joker. Here's Laurie explaining her interaction with

515
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: Lenny on that day and several days after the visit,

516
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: when he began calling her.

517
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: Incessantly, and then he just reminds me that he is

518
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: a killer, and he never once told me that he

519
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,919
Speaker 2: wasn't a killer, and so you know, I basically reprimanded

520
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 2: him and said, well, you know, essentially, I don't hear

521
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: you're a killer if you're not going to go into

522
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 2: detail and tell me about that. So he switches gears,

523
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 2: and I think it's probably in an effort to regain

524
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: some power or control. So he tells me, you know,

525
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 2: I'm a millionaire, and he said, why haven't you been

526
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 2: back to see me? And I said, well, basically, i've

527
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: been in touch with you, or better yet, you've been

528
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 2: in touch with me, and you still don't have anything

529
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 2: that I need. And so he said, are you at home?

530
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 2: And I said yes, and he said are you by yourself?

531
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 2: And I lied and I said no and he said, well,

532
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,959
Speaker 2: I only kill people that are by themselves. And I said,

533
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 2: so if I was by myself, essentially you're telling me

534
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 2: that you I would be a good candidate. And he said,

535
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 2: I just asked if you were home and alone.

536
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: At his house that day, Laurie asked Lenny what he

537
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: would do if the BCSO showed up at his door

538
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: with an arrest warrant. Lenny said, quote, if they try

539
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: to get in, I've got a thirty eight fully loaded

540
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: that I sleep with now. If you recall, he had

541
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: told me he had no idea where Dana was found,

542
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: but it was when I started talking about the crime scene,

543
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: the one he allegedly had no idea of, that made

544
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 1: him physically ill. A day later, talking to Detective Laurie Howard,

545
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: he explained exactly where Dana was found, admitted to being

546
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: out there, and even mentioned how badly her corpse smelled,

547
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: referring to the smell of decomposition as sickening. And the

548
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,439
Speaker 1: reason for his DNA possibly being at the scene, which

549
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: Laurie had floated, he said, would be because he urinated

550
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: in the woods near where Dana's body was found. As

551
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: they discussed the crime scene, Laurie asked why he didn't

552
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: tell anyone from the bcso he had been out to

553
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: the scene and saw Dana's body, which would have explained

554
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: why they had his DNA. He said he didn't want

555
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 1: to get involved. Days later, during one of more than

556
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: ten phone calls Laurie received from Lenny, he says to her.

557
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 2: I'm not afraid to give answers. He said, I'm going

558
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 2: to die, and I said, well, before you die, why

559
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 2: don't you tell me what you know I want to hear.

560
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 2: And he said, I know you've worked hard, and I said,

561
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: I have worked hard. I've dedicated my entire life to

562
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 2: this kind of thing. I would really would like to

563
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: wrap this up. You know, these these girls are deserving.

564
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 2: And he said, I know I'm not afraid to die

565
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 2: and I'm not afraid to talk. And I said, well,

566
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 2: apparently you are. And he kind of got snippy with

567
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 2: me a little bit. You know, well, I'm giving you

568
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 2: answers and I said, you're not giving me answers. So

569
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: we went back and forth with that just a little bit,

570
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 2: and I said, I'm going to go, but if you

571
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 2: want me to come talk to you, and you want

572
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: me to come see you, or you want to continue

573
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: to call me, then it's not good enough that you're

574
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 2: just telling me you killed somebody. He also told me

575
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 2: that the same person who killed Dana killed my girl.

576
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 2: He referred to Sean my girl. He wants to tell

577
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: you he's a killer. He wants to tell you he'll

578
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: kill you. He point blank said it to me. If

579
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 2: you're by yourself, I would be there. I would kill you.

580
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 1: The big takeaway from the conversations Laurie Howard had with

581
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,720
Speaker 1: Lenny was that he admitted to being at the crime

582
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: scene while Dana's body was out in the woods, but

583
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 1: only after she mentioned that the BCSO had his DNA.

584
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: Near the end of what was a two hour conversation

585
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 1: during her visit, Laurie asked Lenny if he thought of

586
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: himself as a psychopath. He responded by saying he was

587
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: a crazy kind of guy. So she countered by asking

588
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: him if he ever felt remorse, and he said, why

589
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: should I, to which Laurie responded, That's exactly what Dennis

590
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: Raider said to me.

591
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 2: They called me the other night. He said I never

592
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: said I wasn't a killer, and I told him, I said, well,

593
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 2: it's not good enough. It's not good enough for you

594
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 2: to tell me that you're not a killer if you're

595
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 2: not gonna tell me who you killed.

596
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: In February twenty twenty four, Lenny called me one afternoon.

597
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: I waited a day and called him back. You called

598
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: me the other day. I was wondering, what's going on?

599
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 7: Who is this?

600
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: This is em William Phelps. We talked a while ago.

601
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: I'm an investigative journalist looking at Danis Stidham's case. I

602
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: called you and we recorded a phone call from my

603
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: podcast and I saw that you called, so I was

604
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 1: wondering what's up.

605
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 7: I probably just missed all in the morning thing.

606
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: Oh you didn't want to talk?

607
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 7: Uh wh I should? I don't know anything.

608
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: You don't know anything about those cases.

609
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 7: I don't really anything.

610
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: Have you spoke to police lately or anybody like that

611
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: or me recently within the past six months year.

612
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 7: I told you to somebody the other day.

613
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: Oh you did what you have to say?

614
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 7: She was er the case?

615
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 8: Sure, I said, no, well there or they instill of

616
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 8: be either.

617
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: So you know, Danas Stidham, we were talking before and

618
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 1: you said you didn't have anything to do with that.

619
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 7: No, I didn't. I got blamed for it. I tell

620
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 7: you that advertation in southwest Missouri.

621
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: How did it ruin your reputation?

622
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 7: Because it was I did.

623
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: Nobody even knew the guy had been questioned. His name,

624
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 1: unlike Mike McMillan's, was never brought into the case publicly.

625
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: That's just more bullshit spewing from the mouth of a

626
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 1: guy who spewed a lot of it and likes to

627
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: play games. What about the we were talking about the

628
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:48,720
Speaker 1: crime scene?

629
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 8: I did not talk to you anybody else because I

630
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 8: don't know anything. You're not too bright either, something. I

631
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 8: don't know anything. I've told you that time time again.

632
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: Your name is on a lot of the reports. How

633
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: come they came after you so hard? They searched your

634
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: house as well? In your car.

635
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 7: Right right right? That didn't be a damp thing.

636
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: Well they found blood in your station wagon in the

637
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: front seat.

638
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 7: Now, if I kills them anything, i'd load them in

639
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 7: the front seat.

640
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not a killer, Oh not either,

641
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 1: are you?

642
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 2: What?

643
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 8: I just get to tell you, you're not too damn brother?

644
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 8: If you don't understand English.

645
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: What about the bindings they took from your house, rope wire,

646
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: that sort of thing.

647
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 7: Big deal. A lot of people have ropes and stuff.

648
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: In the house, ropes with a murder victim's DNA on it.

649
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 7: It wasn't.

650
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: I think that's yet to be the determined.

651
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 7: What the hell you told her me for? Well?

652
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: You called me, so I'm calling you back, and I'm

653
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: asking you why you called. You wanted to talk to me.

654
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: I'm just being respectful here, you know. I want I

655
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: want your your opinion, I want your voice and what

656
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: I'm working on so you can explain yourself. That's all

657
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: your explain myself. They questioned you a number of times.

658
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: They questioned your ex wife, you know, your kids. They

659
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: looked at your background.

660
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 7: You know.

661
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: They searched your house. They searched your vehicles.

662
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 7: Weather fine, weather fun.

663
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: They found blood in your station wagon.

664
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 7: Who's blood?

665
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: Well, you tell me, why would you have a bunch

666
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: of blood on the carpet of your station wagon. I've

667
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: seen photographs of it. That's a lot of blood. So

668
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 1: where would that blood come from?

669
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 7: Who knows? You know?

670
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: You it's your car. If there was blood I found

671
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: in my car, I'd know where it came from.

672
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 7: Well you would, Bud would how come? Why is there.

673
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 1: Because it's your vehicle?

674
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 7: Big deal?

675
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:15,879
Speaker 1: I believe there was blood also in the back seat

676
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: of the car. So it is that Dana Didam's blood.

677
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 8: Blood?

678
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 7: Unpagging house? Who there's blood where you're pegging house?

679
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: Is that danas Didam's blood?

680
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 7: Hasa know? Is it your blood?

681
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 1: It's not my blood?

682
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 8: How do you know?

683
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 1: It was a stupid comeback and he knew it. You

684
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: might be wondering if that blood was ever tested. I

685
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,399
Speaker 1: asked the BCSO and despite luminol tests showing blood all

686
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: over the place inside his vehicle, which the crime scene

687
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: photos I have depict, as well as indications of blood

688
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: clean up. I was told there was not enough to test.

689
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: Lenny was combative this time around. I'll give him that,

690
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: so I decided to touch upon the subject which had

691
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: caused him so much anxiety last time. See if I

692
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: got the same response. What about the Beal Road crime

693
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,760
Speaker 1: scene where she was found? We were talking about that before.

694
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: Did you ever go walking through that woods or did

695
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: you hunt there or anything more of the same silence

696
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: and noises. Hello, I think you went quiet last time

697
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: we talked about Beal Road in the woods there. From

698
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 1: what I'm told, they have your DNA found out there.

699
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,479
Speaker 1: I think this happened last time we chatted. I asked

700
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,479
Speaker 1: you about Beal Road and the crime scene where Dana

701
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 1: was found, and last time he got sick. This time

702
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: you're just silent. I guess I'm gonna hang up now

703
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 1: if you don't want to talk. You have my number.

704
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 1: You called me so oh. It's rare that as you

705
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 1: work on cold cases in the capacity I do, a

706
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:21,240
Speaker 1: case breaks wide open for you as you are investigating.

707
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: But that is what happened as I worked on this

708
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 1: final episode. In early March twenty twenty four, Detective Lorie

709
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: Howard and Detective Ronda Wise, with the help of others,

710
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 1: finally solved and officially closed Shauna Garber's murder, and what

711
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: was first thought to be a gruesome manner of death

712
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 1: as I had mentioned, turned out to be false. Shauna's

713
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: breasts were not mutilated after all, Thank god for small mercies.

714
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: I had been told about this new suspect, Telfy Reeves

715
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: during the summer of twenty twenty three. The guy was

716
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 1: a real shit bag and hit every marker your average

717
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 1: psychopath would.

718
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 2: There was never any manner of death in the autopsy report.

719
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 2: The strangulation was supposition based on a lack of other things.

720
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,720
Speaker 2: But yes, having worked a great deal my partner, Deputy Wise,

721
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 2: and I and especially lately, i'd say within the last

722
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 2: six months, we have spent every day, all day long

723
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 2: working on this and the reason is because we developed

724
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 2: a suspect. That suspect is no longer alive, unfortunately, but

725
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 2: what it did do when he passed, it opened some

726
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 2: doors for people to come forward that wouldn't come forward

727
00:49:54,400 --> 00:50:00,280
Speaker 2: prior to So this suspect in Shawna's case, and now

728
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna call him tr but I anticipate a

729
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 2: press release coming forward very soon, so he is now

730
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: a suspect. I now have people talking.

731
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 7: I have.

732
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 2: Finally, I think, I say, I but we have placed

733
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 2: it and put it all together in the puzzle that

734
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 2: it is, and I think we got it.

735
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,720
Speaker 1: That press release did come on March twenty first, twenty

736
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: twenty four, and this narrative you were about to hear

737
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: regarding Shawna's murder fell in line with Shauna seemingly being

738
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 1: in the wrong place at the wrong time, with the

739
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: devil lurking in the shadows. We've discussed the likelihood and

740
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: we now believed that there is likely no connection to

741
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: Dana's case.

742
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 2: What we believe happened to Shauna. She aged out of

743
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 2: the foster care system, and as we found out, she

744
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 2: was adopted early on, somewhere around the age of six

745
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 2: her adoptive parents. We call it a failed adoption because

746
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 2: Shauna had a lot of mental and a lot of

747
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 2: physical problems. She went back into the foster care system

748
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 2: somewhere around eighty five eighty four eighty five eighty six.

749
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 2: She left a foster care situation. The caseworker is known

750
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 2: to have told family members that she was going to

751
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,760
Speaker 2: go stay in Oklahoma, which was a piece we didn't

752
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 2: have for a long time. But she was going to

753
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 2: go stay in Oklahoma because she had family there. We

754
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 2: searched to a dead end basically on the family members

755
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 2: in Oklahoma, which made me at first question it. But

756
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,280
Speaker 2: then I realized, we're probably not talking about her biological family.

757
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: We're not even talking about her adopted family. More than likely,

758
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:07,240
Speaker 2: we're talking about her last foster care family's extended family,

759
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 2: because that's really all she had. So she winds up

760
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 2: in Oklahoma, interestingly enough, in the Vanita Claremore area, which

761
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: is not too far from the Missouri line. We later

762
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 2: learned that she was being transported via a work program

763
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 2: via van back and forth to a job. Now we

764
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,240
Speaker 2: were initially giving bad information, which threw us off again.

765
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 2: We were told that it was a different area, that

766
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:43,359
Speaker 2: this was in Kansas. It wasn't. But we figured out

767
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 2: that the van that she was taking back and forth

768
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,399
Speaker 2: from the Vanita Claremore area was taking her more than

769
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: likely to Hudson Foods. Hudson Foods was bought out and

770
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 2: is now Tyson Foods, but it has always been in

771
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 2: the Missouri area. It's in McDonald County. It actually is

772
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 2: less than maybe two miles a mile and a half

773
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 2: from where she was dumped. That van was taking her

774
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 2: back and forth from the Word program back to where

775
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 2: she was staying in the Vanita Claremore area. However, on

776
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 2: one occasion at least she wasn't on the van. I

777
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 2: don't know exactly what happened, but she didn't wind up there,

778
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 2: and we were told by a witness that says t

779
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 2: R picked her up while she was walking along that highway,

780
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 2: which is consistent. Everybody walks Highway fifty nine going from

781
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 2: Tyson's nol or Hudson Foods nol Over to where she

782
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 2: would have been found walking and where we were told

783
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 2: she was picked up, so that's all consistent.

784
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 1: There are no pictures of Shanna Garber from her childhood

785
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 1: teen years or later, save for one photo when she

786
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:13,359
Speaker 1: was about four years old. Her toothless smile, short hair,

787
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 1: and overall joyous expression obscuring horrendous abuse before she had

788
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 1: even entered into the foster care system. By March twenty

789
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:29,240
Speaker 1: twenty four, Laurie had finally latched onto, at least partially,

790
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: one of the ghosts she had been chasing for fifteen

791
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,839
Speaker 1: long years. Here's Detective Laurie Howard again.

792
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 2: The other thing we have put together, Ginger Blue, especially

793
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:49,959
Speaker 2: in the nineties, was a beautiful vacation spot. It had

794
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 2: a gorgeous inn. It was a thriving place, had a

795
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 2: restaurant and a place to stay. But towards the early nineties,

796
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 2: I should say, back up in, say, in the eighties,

797
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 2: it was flourishing, but when you got to that nineties area,

798
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 2: it had gone downhill some And she, Shauna had a

799
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 2: material that was in her pocket. I looked at that

800
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 2: material for a really long time and determined that it

801
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 2: was a cloth napkin. And I couldn't never understand why

802
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 2: she would have a cloth napkin in her pocket, unless

803
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: she was working at a restaurant, or perhaps she was hungry,

804
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 2: grabbed a roll, grabbed bread and put it in her pocket. Together,

805
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 2: we know that she had a towel wrapped around her

806
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 2: head in coax cable. Right that towel was It's consistent

807
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 2: with the kind of towel, the color of towel that

808
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 2: they had at the inn. They also had an old

809
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 2: TV system. Of course, back then cable TV with a

810
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 2: short cox cable attached to each one of the rooms,

811
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 2: each TV that was in each room at the old inn.

812
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 2: So it's consistent to say that she at some point

813
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 2: in time had ended up there around that octoberish timeframe.

814
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,240
Speaker 1: Did tr work at that place?

815
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:18,879
Speaker 2: He didn't work there, but he passed it every day.

816
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: There was the answer to the coaxial cable and towel

817
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 1: wrapped around Shawna's head.

818
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: That stretch of highway, you really just can't get very

819
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,359
Speaker 2: far without going one direction or the other on that

820
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 2: stretch of highway connects Well fifty nine runs all the

821
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:41,439
Speaker 2: way from Anderson all the way through to knowl and

822
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 2: on end to Arkansas.

823
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 1: So he picked her up on the road while she

824
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: was hitchhiking or something.

825
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 2: Well, she was walking, and I don't know if she

826
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 2: was if she had missed the van and she was

827
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 2: wanting to stay in that area, if she literally was

828
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 2: just looking for a place to stay for that night,

829
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 2: or if she was trying to get it job there.

830
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 2: That's still kind of a mystery why she was walking

831
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 2: that night, because the van would have picked her up,

832
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 2: you know, dropped her off in the morning and picked

833
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 2: her up in the evening after the shift. Could have

834
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 2: been that she just was tired of working and tired

835
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 2: of living where she was living and opted to go

836
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 2: a different route.

837
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 1: And tr You know a lot about him, and not

838
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: a great deal. He was a bad guy, am I right?

839
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 4: It was a.

840
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 2: Terrible I have one witness, five sources, and I personally

841
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 2: knew the man and everybody that has ever known him,

842
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 2: and I'm going to be one of those those people.

843
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 2: He was evil, He was pure evil. He ran drugs,

844
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 2: He used drugs all of his life. He had two

845
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 2: children that passed from gunshot wounds. He had an ex

846
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:59,439
Speaker 2: wife that had a hillacious life by all accounts, I mean,

847
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 2: just by digging into his life with her. So I

848
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 2: can't imagine having this person around me. And now I

849
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 2: can imagine why nobody really wanted to speak, right, because

850
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 2: why would you?

851
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 1: I mean, Shauna crossed paths with the devil.

852
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 2: She did, She most certainly did. And you know what,

853
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 2: of course she would, of course she would yea if

854
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 2: there was a wrong turn. The girl to icket through

855
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 2: no fault of.

856
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 1: Her own, right, the invisible girl.

857
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 2: She's completely invisible and I say that because there's no

858
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 2: one cared enough to even take a picture of her.

859
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 2: And I don't know why that bothers me so, but

860
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:51,439
Speaker 2: it does.

861
00:58:52,200 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 11: Yeah, Yeah, And so you develop information that trs her

862
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 11: up and what happens.

863
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 2: He has a person of interest with him at the time,

864
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 2: we were able to determine through both a witness and

865
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 2: other sources. Now five other sources, we've been able to

866
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 2: corroborate this story that he takes her. Now, remember, this

867
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 2: is a drug fueled frenzy, spun out mess with somebody

868
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 2: that I've been told is almost bipolar, can be seemingly

869
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 2: somewhat normal, and then just angry, so angry that you're

870
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 2: terrified to be in his presence. So he picks her

871
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 2: up along with another and he takes her up the

872
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 2: road where by the way he lives, you can see

873
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 2: his home by looking directly across from where she is,

874
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 2: and he binds her with what they have in the

875
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 2: back of the vehicle. I think the cox cable was

876
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 2: done initially to wrap her face so she wouldn't see

877
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 2: what was happening, so she wouldn't see where they were going,

878
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 2: so she wouldn't see where she was Because I don't

879
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 2: think he cared whether he saw her face and how

880
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,720
Speaker 2: afraid she might have been. I've been told that that

881
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 2: just would have made things better for him, So I

882
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 2: believe he did it to keep her from knowing where

883
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 2: she was going. I think he took the towel. From

884
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 2: the end, he used the cox cable, which I always

885
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 2: thought was odd. Couldn't figure out why anybody, especially somebody

886
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 2: that's a serial killer or basically a farm boy, either

887
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 2: one somebody local, You wouldn't tie somebody with cox cable.

888
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 2: It's the worst possible medium. But I think he did

889
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 2: it just because he didn't have anything else at the time.

890
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 2: Put it across her face and neck, and that's where

891
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 2: that entered in. Then also from the end, she had

892
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 2: the napkin in her pocket. He took her up to

893
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 2: the road. They tied her the rest of the way

894
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 2: with what they had in the back of the vehicle.

895
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 2: I now know who that vehicle belongs to, which was

896
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 2: a hang up for a while. They raped her and

897
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 2: she was screaming so badly, and so it breaks my heart.

898
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 2: But she was literally screaming so much that you could

899
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 2: hear the echo down the valley, and it scared them.

900
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 1: This explains the screams on Halloween. Laurie Howard and Ronda

901
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 1: Wise spoke to six different sources, none of whom knew

902
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:46,560
Speaker 1: each other, each telling the same story. This is how

903
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 1: we know we have the absolute truth. This next part

904
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 1: from me exemplifies and truly displays the sociopath's absolute pathology.

905
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 2: Who are and so my witness says that he's laughing

906
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 2: as he's telling this story later on in the evening,

907
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 2: But they start to get nervous because somebody. They know

908
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:16,480
Speaker 2: that there's a party down the hill, they know that

909
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 2: it's a bunch of kids, they know it's a Halloween.

910
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:21,440
Speaker 2: But they start to get They start to get nervous.

911
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 2: So he overdoses her, which, by the way, come to

912
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 2: find out, is a pretty standard practice because I'm told

913
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 2: this wasn't his first victim.

914
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 1: So he gives her a hot shot.

915
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 2: He gives her a hot.

916
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:36,439
Speaker 1: Shot, and then what does he do.

917
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:44,200
Speaker 2: He I have My witness states that she believes and

918
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 2: this is according to what tr says, that he props

919
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 2: her up, and she says she she thinks that it

920
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 2: would have been on an old spickett, an old water spigut.

921
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:05,640
Speaker 2: I don't know I can't confirm that, so I don't

922
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 2: really want to say that that's the case. But essentially

923
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,880
Speaker 2: she's propped up somehow. Why I don't know.

924
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 7: And then.

925
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 2: T R and person of interests leave. They then go

926
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 2: and talk to someone else and they're talking about everything

927
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 2: that they just did to her, and they're laughing and

928
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 2: they think it's funny, and they're reliving every moment. Now,

929
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 2: remember this just happened. And so what happens the next morning?

930
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 2: My witness goes next door or I should say, up

931
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:53,720
Speaker 2: the hill, and sure enough, she sees everything that she

932
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 2: thought she.

933
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 1: Would see, and Shawna was dead.

934
01:03:57,680 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 2: Shauna was dead.

935
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 1: And did they mutilate her at all?

936
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 2: No? The story that was given by one source stated

937
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 2: that she had her breasts removed or sliced. I've had

938
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 2: more than one source come forward with TR and say no,

939
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 2: he did not cut her breast off.

940
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:25,920
Speaker 11: Okay, thank god for small things.

941
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 1: So wow, So yeah, I can understand why witnesses would

942
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 1: have been afraid of coming forward until he died.

943
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 2: They were terrified.

944
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 1: And he died a horrible death, right, I mean, he

945
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 1: died in an accident a vehicle.

946
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 2: He did, he died in a vehicle accident. I'm told

947
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 2: it was a horrible death good and you know what,

948
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 2: I'm okay with that. And I know that sounds.

949
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 1: Callous, No it doesn't.

950
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 2: But but on the other hand, my feelings for Shauna

951
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 2: and in any case that I work, but Shawna in particular,

952
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:05,440
Speaker 2: and I'm told I look like Shawna.

953
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 1: Shawna was like the daughter to you.

954
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 7: She was.

955
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 2: She absolutely was. I took her with me everywhere I went.

956
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 2: You did, and that's because I didn't want to lose

957
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 2: her again. I had to find her in the first.

958
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 1: Place, and you solved the case. Nathan Smith was no

959
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 1: longer the Bentonville prosecutor. He left the office during the

960
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 1: time I began this case years ago and finished my

961
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 1: work in twenty twenty four, taking a job on Walmart's

962
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 1: legal team. But the last time I spoke to him

963
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,520
Speaker 1: about the cases, he said a few things that I

964
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:43,959
Speaker 1: think sum up this season very well.

965
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 10: Well, Look, I think that first of all, I appreciate

966
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 10: you doing the story, and I know there's a lot

967
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:52,120
Speaker 10: of cases around the country that are cold and have

968
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 10: families that the one answer is just as badly, but

969
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:59,480
Speaker 10: it is so important for these cases to not be

970
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:05,200
Speaker 10: Forgod and to not be just shelved. And so one

971
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:07,440
Speaker 10: of the things important is there could be someone listening

972
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 10: who knows something, who knows someone, who is related to

973
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 10: someone that maybe their entire family thinks, you know what,

974
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 10: he has always acted very suspiciously and has all these connections,

975
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 10: and I would just for the sake of Dani's family,

976
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:25,920
Speaker 10: I would just beg them to get that information to

977
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 10: law enforcement or to someone who can use it, because

978
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 10: oftentimes in cases like this, it can be small things

979
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 10: that make the difference. It can be a small key

980
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 10: that unlocks a door to an avenue that no one

981
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:41,440
Speaker 10: knew was there. And we have to value human life

982
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 10: and we can't simply forget about it because it's old

983
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 10: and it hasn't been solved yet.

984
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:54,640
Speaker 1: Finding answers and resolution in cold cases requires persistence and patience.

985
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 1: In the end, as one case was solved, the other

986
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 1: heading in that direction, I hold on to hope that

987
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:10,520
Speaker 1: someday soon Dana Didham's family will get what they deserve justice.

988
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 1: Subscribe and foul the show to keep up with bonus

989
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 1: episodes coming soon. If you appreciate the work I do

990
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 1: on Paper Ghosts, follow my other podcast, Crossing the line

991
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 1: with em William Phelps, where I approach new cases each

992
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 1: week in a similar fashion. I want to thank every

993
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 1: one of my sources and those who took the time

994
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 1: to help sit in for an interview or discuss the

995
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 1: case with me. I can't say enough how much journalist

996
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 1: Brandon Howard helped me out, and I thank him immensely

997
01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 1: for it. I also want to thank my Paper Ghost

998
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 1: production team, Catherine Law, Rose Bachi, Matt Russell, Brandon Dicker.

999
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:58,080
Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts Season four is written and executive produced by

1000
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 1: me Em William Phelps, grip consulting by Rose Bachi, sound

1001
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 1: design by Matt Russeller, executive production by Catherine Law, and

1002
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 1: audio editing and mixing by Brandon Dicker Taka Boom Productions.

1003
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 1: The series theme number four four to two is written

1004
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 1: and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom mo