1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 2: You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 2: Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio. 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: The sense of growing hostility toward business leaders and others 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: and powers everywhere you look. It's in polls that show 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: sinking opinions of large companies, universities, the media, churches and 7 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: virtually every major institution. 8 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 3: We talk about this a lot. We do like people 9 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 3: have lost faith. 10 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: Well, it's coincided with dueling populist political movements. You've got 11 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: on the right, President Trump's attacks on a shadowy globe elite. 12 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: On the left by Zoora Mam Donnie's broadside against billionaires. 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: The question that Max Chafkin writes, he's Bloomberg BusinessWeek senior reporter, 14 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: how did business leaders get so crosswise with the public. 15 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: There are a lot of reasons, including the sense that 16 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 1: our business leaders themselves, Max rights, are part of the problem. 17 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: Max Chaffkin is co host of the Everybody's Business podcast. 18 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: He's the author of the contrarian Peter Teel and Silicon 19 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: Valley's Pursuit of Power. He joins us here in the 20 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: bloom Interactive Brokers studio. What I read from that entire 21 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: sort of first portion of your piece does not include 22 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,559 Speaker 1: the name Jeffrey Epstein. But the connection that you make 23 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: is this is illustrated in the Justice Department's release of 24 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: the Epstein files. Make that connection for us. 25 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that there was already in the background, 26 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 2: as just as you said to him, a lot of 27 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 2: hostility towards quote unquote elites, towards business people, not just 28 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 2: business people, but people in the media and so on, 29 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 2: and then you filtered this scandal on top of it, 30 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: and sort of some of the unique contours, one of 31 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 2: which is it matches with an existing conspiracy theory, which 32 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 2: is that were there were already a lot of people, 33 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 2: you know, on the Internet prime to believe that there 34 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: was a global cabal of pedophiles. You have this thing 35 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 2: that is it's not exactly that, of course, but it 36 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: does have some contours there. Jeffrey Epstein, of course, you know, 37 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: was accused of trafficking teenagers, so there's that aspect of it. 38 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: And then you know, on top of that, you just 39 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: have this massive data dump. You know, for better or worse, 40 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 2: there are now three million, three point five million documents 41 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 2: that anyone can go look and you can see some 42 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 2: of the wealthiest and uh, you know, the most respected 43 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 2: people in the world, you know, sort of bickering and 44 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: and doing things that are very very embarrassing. And that 45 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 2: is a thing that I think we're going to be 46 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 2: talking about for years, if not decades. This is this 47 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: is like a bomb going off in our in the 48 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 2: relationship that that Americans and people all around the world 49 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 2: have with their business leaders. And it's going to take 50 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 2: a long time for business leaders and not not just 51 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: business leader, politicians and so on to rebuild trust and 52 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: and and you have this ongoing you know, conspiracy theorizing 53 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 2: politicians are using. It's going to be it's gonna be 54 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 2: a thing we're gonna be talking about for a long time. 55 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 3: Is it really a bomb going off? And I just 56 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 3: think about certainly for the people who are cited in 57 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 3: these files, like, I think that's something that it's kind 58 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 3: of wild interesting to watch. 59 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: And we've talked about. 60 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 3: What's happened in the UK with some of officials. It 61 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 3: was a joke at the Academy Awards about you know, 62 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 3: UK officials get taken down and you know, you don't 63 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 3: necessarily see the mighty falling, you do a little bit, 64 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 3: but you do wonder are they ostracized from society, do 65 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 3: they lose their wealth? 66 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: And other countries you see them fall. In the US, 67 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: it's kind of like not. 68 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: So much so like I mean, that's one of the 69 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 2: things that I would argue is making this bad is 70 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 2: that there is a sense of a lack of accountability 71 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: right for a bunch of the people. There are some 72 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 2: people who have resigned from their jobs. So Larry Summers 73 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: stepped down from Harvard, Kathy Rumler has said she's stepping 74 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 2: down from Goldman Sachs at the end of June. All 75 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 2: they're still in her job. 76 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: And Goldmen Sacks would have been it seemed like would 77 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: have been fine if she stayed. That's that's them. 78 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard, it's it's hard to know what's 79 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: going on behind the scenes. But they had definitely supported her, 80 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: said she wasn't doing anything professionally inappropriate. 81 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 3: So Bill Gates is still a very well. 82 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 2: Bill Gates is still connected to Microsoft. Reied Hoffman, who's 83 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: also Microsoft board member, is all over these pass So 84 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: so there is a sense that of a I think 85 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: from from critics of a life lack of accountability. What 86 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: I would just say is, I think we're at the 87 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: very early stages of this process, and it's and it's 88 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: easy to say that there's that there's been no accountability. 89 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: You know, six weeks after this this document dun't happen. 90 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 2: But we will see, I mean, because ultimately voters and 91 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 2: consumers have a say in this, and they are going 92 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: to start to make those those their voices heard. And 93 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 2: we're seeing that in sort of subtle ways already. The 94 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: company Life Touch, which is a school photography company, no 95 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: real connection to Jeffrey Epstein. They were they were bought 96 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 2: by Apollo, which is connected to Epstein via Leon Black, 97 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: after Epstein had died. They're dealing with with boycott. So 98 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: they say, so you're seeing places where there isn't even 99 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: a really close connection Epstein, where they're where companies are suffering, 100 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 2: and and it's going to be this kind of like 101 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 2: background thing. Uh. You know, there's a lot of in 102 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 2: terms of our politics right now in the primary, Epstein 103 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 2: is coming up. I think more than people realize with voters, 104 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: this is going to be like one of these things 105 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: where when we look at populist electoral results. You know, 106 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 2: at the end of this midterm two years from now, 107 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: I think it'll be one of the things people point to. 108 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 1: How do you connect it to the way that people 109 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: view the structure of society right now, like the way 110 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: people view elite, the way people view capitalism or the 111 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: system that we have. 112 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: I mean, what's what's so damaging about these files is 113 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: you see, it's not only that it's not only the 114 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: alleged crimes of Jeffrey Epstein, as I mentioned, accused of 115 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 2: sex trafficking, also pled guilty to a sex crime in 116 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 2: two thousand and eight. It's the sense of this little 117 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 2: private club and a little clique, and people who seem 118 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: only interested in maneuvering within that clique in ways that 119 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: are are are just embarrassing. And I mean this sounds 120 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: kind of small, but you read some of these emails. 121 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 2: They're they're not grammatical, they're they're venal, they're they're all 122 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: the things that that people are when they're speaking in private. 123 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 2: It's just you layer that on this very upsetting sex scandal, 124 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 2: and then you layer on a wealth gap, like massive, 125 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 2: massive discontent that has been bubbling really since the Great 126 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 2: Financial Crisis, and that becomes a stew that I think 127 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 2: could lead to some significant social changes. 128 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 3: I also think, right, you know, we always talk about 129 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 3: gaps in the economy, K shaped economy, inequalities and so 130 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 3: on and so forth. But you have these individuals who say, well, 131 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 3: I didn't really know them, or like we didn't really 132 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 3: have that closer relationship. But you go through those emails 133 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 3: and they seem very very familiar and so like, once 134 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 3: again you're like, well, wait a minute, these folks get 135 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 3: a pass somehow, and how did they not know, especially 136 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 3: when you look at the timing of the emails, how 137 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 3: did they not know what this guy was about? 138 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I should say, you know, being in these 139 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: files doesn't mean you were complicit with every Epstein's crimes. 140 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 2: It doesn't even necessarily mean that these people knew everything 141 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 2: that was going on. But it does show an incredible 142 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: lack of judgment. And we're talking about people who are 143 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 2: supposed to be professional judges of you know, professional allocators 144 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 2: of capital, you know, professional technology prognosticators, and and you 145 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: know a lot of moral codes. Yeah, and and you know, 146 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: you look at for instance, pulling around how people feel 147 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 2: about AI. There's this huge gap right now between the 148 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: way like Americans and people all around the world talk 149 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: about AI and executives, and I think that you're seeing 150 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: the impact of that lack of trust. A lot of 151 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 2: people are really down on this technology, and like why 152 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 2: are they down on it? Well, they're down on it 153 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: because they don't trust it and they don't trust the 154 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: people who are running it, and and that's going to 155 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: create problems for businesses you know, down the road for 156 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: this year, next year, and and so forth. 157 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: But apart from voting, the people who have this discontent 158 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: or who maybe even tell pollsters that they they're unhappy 159 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: with the system as is, what power do they have? 160 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: I mean, they're they have power as consumers, and I 161 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: think that, I mean, we don't we don't know how. Again, 162 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 2: AI companies have yet to really turn a profit selling 163 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: these selling these chatbots, right they're they're they're going to 164 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: need to sell ultimately to sell products to people. And 165 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 2: I think that is going to you know that there 166 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: this is going to be a thing that hangs over 167 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: any company that has an Epstein connection, and I think 168 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 2: it will continue to hang there for a long time 169 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: because there are all these redactions in the Epstein files. 170 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: We're going to have hearings some of these people that 171 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: I've mentioned are going to testify in Congress. Bill Gates 172 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: has said he testify in Congress. So this is just 173 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 2: going to be a sort of story that goes on 174 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 2: essentially forever. There was probably an opportunity years ago to 175 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 2: kind of create a sense of finality and justice and that, 176 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: and because it was dragged out for such a long 177 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 2: time between you know, wrangling over the Epstein files and 178 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 2: so on, that it feels like that that opportunity has 179 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 2: is basically passed. 180 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 3: You know, you end and you talk about some of 181 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 3: these well as you say, you know, there's a code 182 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 3: of elite silence, there's an Epstein class, but you kind 183 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 3: of write saying that, you know, maybe what we start 184 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 3: to need to see from these tarnish leaders is making 185 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 3: real lemance and like do we need to have that? 186 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 3: Like do we need it to say? Yeah, I kind 187 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 3: of screwed up. 188 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: I think that the people who are able to who 189 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: navigate that, who will who will be able to move 190 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 2: past this, are going to be the ones that confront 191 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 2: it head on. And because we what we have seen 192 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 2: instead for most of these people is a sort of 193 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 2: shifting story that is tailored to suit whatever information has 194 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 2: already been released, and we've seen that with people saying, oh, well, 195 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: I didn't I only met him, or I only meant 196 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 2: him once or whatever, and it turns out it's more 197 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: times than that. Or you have somebody like Elon must 198 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: saying I didn't go to the island, which leaves out 199 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 2: the fact that you can look up this email where 200 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 2: he's he may have not gone to the island, but 201 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: he was certainly sending Jeffrey Epstein emails like asking to 202 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: go to the island. 203 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 3: So I think it's technically not wrong. 204 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: No factual, but but geels like it's not the whole story. 205 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 2: And I think at some point, again, being in this 206 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 2: group doesn't necessarily mean you did anything criminal or even 207 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 2: necessarily wrong. But but I think that at some point 208 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: people are going to have to confront it head on 209 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: rather than trying to sort of get around it with 210 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: these kind of evasive statements and so on. 211 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: You know, I'm pulling up another story that your story 212 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: reminded me of, and it's a story that came out 213 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg Business with Courtney Rubin and Dina Shanker about 214 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: Peter Atilla the doctor and the Epstein revelation that is 215 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: upending his longevity empire, and your two pieces and really 216 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: got me thinking, Max, what, in your view drew people 217 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: to him even after he served prison time. 218 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's I think if you're being charity, 219 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 2: I mean, you could just say a lack of a 220 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 2: moral compass or something like that. These people just didn't care. 221 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 2: That would maybe if you wanted to be more charitable, 222 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 2: I think you would say access and money. So in 223 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 2: the case of Peter Atilla, he was trying to build 224 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 2: this wellness empire, and from the emails and from the 225 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: story that Courtney and Dina wrote, you can see him 226 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: sort of trying to use Epstein as an entree into 227 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 2: that world. That is how Epstein promoted himself. And somewhere 228 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 2: along the way, Peter Atia became friends with Jeffrey Epstein. 229 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 2: At least he's denied that they were friend friends, but 230 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 2: you know, you see a relationship, and I think that 231 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 2: happened in a lot of cases. Listen. 232 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 3: It's kind of how the world often works, right, Power 233 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 3: and being close to it in relationships and so on 234 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 3: and so forth. It's a brilliant read and a brilliant right. 235 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: Max Chafkin, co host of The Everybody's Business podcast and 236 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,719 Speaker 3: the author of The Contrarian. He is of course part 237 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 3: of the Blueberg business roekam he's senior reporter