1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: All the media. 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome. Take it up, and here I'm joined 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 2: once again. 4 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 3: By yours Davias. 5 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, Hello. And recently I was reading through a 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 2: photo book called Humans by Brandon Stanton. It features interviews 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 2: of people on the streets all over the world. He 8 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: started off and he kind of became well known online 9 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 2: for the Humans of New York series. I'm sure if 10 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 2: you've heard of that, Yeah, I think so, yeah, yeah, 11 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:34,639 Speaker 2: So he did that for a while and he ended 12 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 2: up traveling at the parts of the world and doing 13 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 2: basically the same thing, just interviewing people on the street, 14 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 2: getting their insights, hearing their struggles, hearing their story. And 15 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,279 Speaker 2: when I saw the book in the library, I just 16 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: I picked it up orroed it, decided to read it through. 17 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 2: And it's really profound in a sense, and you get 18 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: a sense of the spectrum of humanity, of what people 19 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 2: are going through, of the highs and lows of the 20 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 2: human experience, make you laugh on one page and make 21 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 2: you cry for the next page. And seeing that variety 22 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 2: of humanity reminded me of another book that I read 23 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: and finished recently, which is called Humankind Hopeful History by 24 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 2: Rutga Bregmant, a friend of mine, had given it to 25 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: me because he said it had changed his whole view 26 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 2: on the world. And so I wanted to talk about 27 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: some of the concepts that I picked up in that book, 28 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 2: like the origins and critiques of veneer theory, why most 29 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 2: people are actually pretty decent, and the problems with some 30 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 2: of the narratives of our wickedness. And the next episode, 31 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 2: I want to get into some of the reasons why 32 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 2: people do bad and what we can do about it. 33 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 3: Sounds exciting because there is a lot of bad right now. 34 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 2: Is there is? I mean, as on that stuff. I mean, 35 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 2: what would you say is the most common perspective you 36 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,559 Speaker 2: hear on humanity and human nature? 37 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 3: I don't know, Like there's there's this clash between like 38 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 3: this like liberal humanist version and then this like Christian 39 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 3: moralist version, I guess like in the States right now, 40 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 3: but that's been going on for decades, if not centuries. 41 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: By liberal humanists on Christian I mean, I think I 42 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: get a sense of what the Christian moralist vision is right, 43 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: that we are all sinful, destined for hell any salvation, 44 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: that that version of the story, yeah, yeah, more or less, 45 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: and the liberal humanist perspective is I mean. 46 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 3: I don't know, like this this this forever search for 47 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 3: like what human rights are and like human decency. So 48 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 3: we come up with like governments and rules to actually 49 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 3: like govern over our morals as a democratic process that 50 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 3: continues to evolve over the course of like hundreds of years. 51 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 3: We're like, you know, on the moral arc of the universe, 52 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 3: just not fully you know there yet. 53 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard that perspective, I think most commonly and 54 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 2: decent in my spaces, I tend to hear the you know, 55 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 2: people are wicked, people are sinful in religious cases, or 56 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: people are violent, people are selfish, and that kind of 57 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: in that similar number of vein where we have these 58 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: systems in place to kind of check ourst simpulses, to 59 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 2: kind of keep us regulated and to keep society functioning. 60 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 2: And Bregman opens his book by discussing the idea of 61 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 2: civilization being a thin mask that covers our true savage instincts. 62 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: He calls it the veneer theory, and he spends the 63 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: rest of the book basically points it out all the 64 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: different errors in that judgment. I mean, he doesn't claim 65 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: that we're all good people, happy go lucky saying so 66 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: anything like that, But he does see it. For the 67 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: most part, most people are pretty decent, and I know 68 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: that clashes with all a lot of people are accustomed 69 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: to hearing, and there are some very notable exceptions. But 70 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: despite the efforts of elite to pain and purport a 71 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 2: different picture, there's actually a lot more leaning towards our decent, 72 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: if not good nature and the contrary. But of course, 73 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: of these kind of conversations, who are set to go 74 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: back to the debate between Thomas Hobbes and Sean jack 75 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 2: ersue we can't escape these guys. Hobbes, of course, had 76 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: the perspective in Leviathan, which was written in sixteen fifty one, 77 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 2: that in the absence of a strong central authority, human 78 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 2: beings would live in a condition of perpetual war, with 79 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 2: every man against every other man, a war of war 80 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: against all. As he would have put it so to him, 81 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 2: people are naturally self interested and driven by the desire 82 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: for power and survival, so without laws or a sovereign 83 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 2: to keep them in check, individuals would act purely on 84 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: their own instincts, lead into constant conflict over resources, safety, 85 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 2: and dominant life. In this state of nature would be 86 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 2: solitary for nasty, brutish, and short. A couple of years later, 87 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 2: a couple of decades later, Rousseau was writing in the 88 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: Discourse on the Origin and Basis of Inequality among Men, 89 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: and he basically flipped Hobbs view on its head. He 90 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: believed that humans in the state of nature were peaceful, cooperative, 91 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: and guided by basic needs and compassion, and there was 92 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: a development of hierarchies and institutions that had led to inequality, jealousy, 93 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: and competition which basically corrupted human nature. In his words, 94 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: man is born free and everywhere he is in chains. 95 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 2: Do you take a side in this debate? 96 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 3: By the way, er not to be the centrist option, 97 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 3: But I don't know. I think both these things play 98 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 3: into each other. I definitely don't believe in the idea 99 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 3: that like this state is the only thing that reigns 100 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 3: people in and stops them from doing a moral acts. Right, 101 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 3: It's the same thing as like without without God or 102 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 3: without the Bible, then everyone would just be like raping 103 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 3: and murdering it. Meanwhile, actual Christians obviously rape and murder 104 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 3: all the time anyway. But like, no, like this this 105 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 3: idea isn't the only thing that keeps you from becoming 106 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,679 Speaker 3: this like, you know, savage, like inhuman monster. People can 107 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 3: be morally good without this this like religious notion. And 108 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 3: I think in some ways the state can also operate 109 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 3: as a religious notion to these people, where you know, 110 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 3: the police is the only thing that's keeping you from 111 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 3: becoming this like horrible monster who just hurts everyone around you. 112 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 3: But I also have my sympathies to the like alternate 113 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 3: side of that, and I can see there's a great 114 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 3: deal of oppression and horrific violence that can only happen 115 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 3: at scale under the organization of a state. So I 116 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 3: will pick the annoying centrisce option. 117 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that there are a lot of people 118 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 2: who have the sense that, you know, the state and 119 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: the laws all that's standing between us and the purge 120 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: or mad Max or something like that. Sure, exactly, So, yeah, 121 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 2: I don't think that Hobbes's over generalization of human nature 122 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: as inherently violent and selfish holds up when you look 123 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 2: at the diversity of human experience and human societies. I mean, 124 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: that's not to say that violence and conflict were absent 125 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: in a world out state, but you know, context matters. Resources, environment, 126 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: group size. All those things would have played roles. I 127 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: don't think that we should be accepting Rousseau's romantic light either, 128 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: So I guess I'm in the centris to count with you. 129 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 2: The truth does seem to lie somewhere in that middle ground, 130 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 2: that human nature is flexible and then it's shaped by social, ecological, 131 00:07:47,480 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 2: and historical contexts. What's getting the weeds of humanity's origins 132 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: is stimulating as an exercise. But there's only so much 133 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: we can know about the past for certain. What we 134 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: can't know for certain is the present, And what we've 135 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: seen in the present is that when disaster strikes, people 136 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: have tended to help each other. In Hurricane Katrina in 137 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: two thousand and five, the official response was famously criticized 138 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 2: for being slow and disorganized, and yet despite media attempts 139 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: to pain these people as looters and thugs and all 140 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 2: these different things, community members, neighbors, volunteers all stepped up 141 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 2: to rescue people, to mobilize food, shelter, and basic aid, 142 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: to expropriate when necessary to get people what they needed, 143 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: long before federal agencies gone on the scene. Similarly, in 144 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: a more recent occurrence, after the cranfelt tower fire in 145 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 2: the UK in twenty seventeen. The official channels had failed 146 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: the people of that tour many diet as a result. 147 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 2: Regulations that were supposed to protect people were not enforced 148 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: or were absent. And yet it was community members who 149 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 2: sprang into action to provide water and shelter and food 150 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: and clothes and emotional support even when the Twin Tours 151 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 2: fell on Stement eleven, two thousand and one. And this 152 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 2: is an example that brag when I actually spent some 153 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: time talking about people actually helped people descend the stairwells 154 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 2: in an orderly fashion. You know, they would say, you know, 155 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 2: after you going down the stairs, and passers by would 156 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: go in and help others to evacuate and assist the 157 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 2: wounded law before the emergency services arrived. So people acted 158 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 2: and prioritized helping others even in a disaster scenario. And 159 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 2: yet what do we see in dystopia and fiction. In 160 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 2: apocalyptic fiction, you see people just like driving around shooting 161 00:09:57,960 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 2: guns in the air. You see the purge, you see 162 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 2: them the ceiling, zombie apocalypse scenarios. In Rebecca Solnitt's book, 163 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: A Paradise Built in Hell, she found that disasters peeled 164 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: back the layer as a society and revealed the empathy, cooperation, 165 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 2: and ka at humanities core. She noted that when disaster 166 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 2: strikes is when people most often reveal the better natures, 167 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: and yet those negative narratives tend to have more suite 168 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:26,599 Speaker 2: in the popular imagination. 169 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 3: No, and this is like so true. I remember in 170 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 3: twenty twenty, during the wildfires on the West Coast, the 171 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 3: anarchist response was to set up these like giant, like 172 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 3: mutual aid centers for people fleeing from the fire, you know, 173 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 3: like not like other anarchists, just like regular people fleeing 174 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 3: from the fire could get necessities and figure out housing. Meanwhile, 175 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 3: right wing militias were setting up checkpoints, monitoring to make 176 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 3: sure Antifa wasn't you know, like raiding people's homes as 177 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 3: they were fleeing from the fires. Like these were the 178 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 3: two options you had. You had, you had anarchists actually 179 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 3: helping the people who were who were fleeing from this 180 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 3: horrific fire and setting up like massive, massive like aid 181 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 3: distribution centers. Meanwhile right wing militias were pulling people over 182 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 3: at gunpoint making sure Antifa wasn't up to any shenanigans 183 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 3: and similar stuff happened last year during Hurricane Helene on 184 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,719 Speaker 3: the East Coast, where you had a whole bunch of 185 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 3: like Southeast anarchists in the Appalachians do mutual a disaster response. Meanwhile, 186 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 3: right wing malicious were spreading rumors about like FEMA fraud 187 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 3: and all of all of this crazy stuff, not actually 188 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 3: helping anybody. But it was anarchists doing a large a 189 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 3: large amount of the actual water distribution and like medical 190 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 3: assistance on the ground as the federal response was delayed 191 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 3: and insufficient. 192 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I was aware of the anarchist efforts 193 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 2: during these disasters, but I wasn't. I didn't know about 194 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 2: that situation with the right wing militias setting up checkpoints. 195 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: That's shocking but still wild, you know. 196 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it's so funny because those are the people, 197 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 3: you know, claiming that, you know, without the government we 198 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 3: would have the purge, anarchists would just go around doing 199 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 3: all kinds of crazy crimes. I get when things actually happen, 200 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 3: their attempts to like deputize them as like their own 201 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 3: police force actually creates those conditions. Meanwhile, anarchists are the 202 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 3: ones actually helping. 203 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 2: People exactly exactly, and yet despite these situations, these these 204 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: things happen again and again. We still have these popular narratives. 205 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: You don't know, the narrative I see referenced all the 206 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 2: time Lord of the Fliers. 207 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 3: Yes, of course, of course. 208 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: All the time. Right. It's basically become a cultural shorthand 209 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 2: for the idea that people are just savage at heart, 210 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 2: that this Veneo civilization is the only thing keeping us 211 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 2: in checked. I mean, these days I do see people 212 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 2: joking that it's because those were British boys. 213 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 3: So true, actually, so true. 214 00:12:58,559 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 2: But well, I get that. 215 00:12:59,840 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: You. 216 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 2: I think it's also important to remember that it's like 217 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 2: people are taking this work of fiction as if it's 218 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 2: an anthropological study, yeah, when it's just something that a 219 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 2: guy made up as an analogy for, you know, the 220 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: situation during World War Two. 221 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 3: I think it's also good to remember that the British 222 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 3: are people too. I have a British co worker, so 223 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 3: you know, we have to we have to show them 224 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 3: a little bit of human human dignity exactly exactly. 225 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 2: People embrace the story because it confirms what they want 226 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: to believe in this climate of cynicism. But Ragman actually 227 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 2: tells a story in the book about a true instance 228 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 2: of when a shipwreck of young boys occurred. Of course 229 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: there't They weren't British boys. There were Tonguan boys as 230 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 2: and from the country of Tonga. So in nineteen sixty five, 231 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 2: six Tonguan boys we were stranded on a remote island 232 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 2: for over a year, and rather than descended into violence, 233 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: they survived through cooperation. You know, they built a garden, 234 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: they shared duties. They didn't do any human sacrifices, you know, 235 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 2: they created a rotor system to get things done. There 236 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 2: resolved conflict. When people were in conflict, they would go 237 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: on time out. They put each other on timeout and 238 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: go on opposite sides of the island until the you know, 239 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 2: cooler heads prevailed. The figure out ways to deal with 240 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: their conflicts, to organize themselves without authority and without chaos. 241 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 2: But the problem is that these fictional narratives become so 242 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 2: powerful instead of the real ones, that they have a 243 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 2: similar effect to the placeboy effect. In fact, it's the 244 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 2: Placeboy effects evil twin the no Sea Boy effect. Now, 245 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: I'd heard about the place boy effect before, and I'm 246 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 2: sure you have as well. But for those who don't know, 247 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: it's basically where someone's health actually improves after receiving what's 248 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: basically a dummy treatment like a sugar pill or a 249 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: fake surgery or a saline injection. The body heals itself 250 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: because the mind of the person believes it's being healed. 251 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 2: The mind in that trust into medicine. I mean, that's 252 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: just that's amazing to me even now, and they'll quite 253 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 2: understand how it works yet, but it's still really cool. 254 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 2: But there's another dimension to the placebo effect that I 255 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 2: hadn't heard about before, but it makes intuitive sense. I 256 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: suppose it's called the no Seaboy effect. And Bregman is 257 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: the one who introduced me to that concept. So the 258 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 2: no Seaboy effect is where instead of belief heal and you, 259 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 2: it's belief that makes you sick. So people experience real pain, 260 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: real symptoms, and even real illness, not because there's an 261 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: actual physical cause, but because in their minds they expect 262 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: to be harmed. So their minds to that fear of 263 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 2: harm into actual harm and injury. And there was one 264 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 2: case study that he used where a child had drunk 265 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: a coke and photo was poisoned and then just created 266 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 2: this mass hysteria almost with dozens of children in hospitals 267 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 2: with headaches and nausea and pradic attacks because they drank. 268 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: Go to the point where Coca Cola actually had to 269 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 2: recall all of those drinks even though tests had showing 270 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 2: that there was nothing in the drinks that we're making 271 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 2: people sick, but theirs bodies still responded as if there 272 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 2: was because they believed they heard the story, they heard 273 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 2: about it, they saw what happened to others, and they 274 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: believed it would happened to them. And that's the no 275 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 2: super effect in action, right, So we get the concept. 276 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: So Bregmun actually stretched these concepts beyond the field of medicine, 277 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 2: and he basically made the points that what if these 278 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: contents are abate into how we view each other? You know, 279 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 2: so what if I believe that people are selfish, cruel 280 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: and violent by nature? Actually makes it so, you know, 281 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 2: if you expect the worst from people, you'll act on that. 282 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 2: You know, you might be colder or more defensive and 283 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: more likely to punish or preemptal. And what happens as 284 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 2: a result is that, you know, people pick up on 285 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 2: that energy, they're spawning kind they withdraw, they retaliate, and 286 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: then that cycle ends up feeding itself and to the belief. 287 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 2: That negative belief becomes a social reality, a self fulfilling prophecy. 288 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 2: So we end up building institutions that are based on 289 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 2: that cynical expectation. We design policies that are based around 290 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 2: the punishment we are, train ourselves to see strangers as 291 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: threats rather than as neighbors. And then when we have 292 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 2: a fallout, as when that prophecy is fulfilled by our 293 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: own actions, we can then say, well, see I was right. 294 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 2: You know, people are awful. But what we don't see 295 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 2: is that our expectations and the systems we build around 296 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: those expectations are part of what ends up making it 297 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 2: that way. I think an easy example to going to 298 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 2: is with prison right. People expect criminals to act like animals, 299 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: to act like monsters, to beasts, and so they create prisons, 300 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 2: and in those prisons treat them like animals, monsters and beasts, 301 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 2: and people respond to that. You know, you treat people 302 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 2: like animals, they're going to behave like animals. So then 303 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: the question that Bragmann poses is what happens if we 304 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 2: decide to treat people like their good you know, trusting 305 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 2: their intentions, leaning into care, and building our systems around 306 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: the assumption that most people are decent. So how do 307 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: we make that leave? I said before that you know, 308 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 2: we don't really necessarily need to go into the past 309 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 2: to see how people behave in the present, but it's 310 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 2: a good idea to get a sense of how we evolved. Right. 311 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 2: A lot of people have a brutal perception of human evolution. 312 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 2: You know, they truck comparisons between us and chimpanzees, or 313 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 2: you know, they make it see first of all like 314 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 2: nordn bernobles entirely and also ignoring the fact that we 315 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 2: are our own speecies with our own evolutionary history. You know, 316 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 2: people have are very cynical and honestly insultant, like view 317 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,479 Speaker 2: of the cave men of our past. But our histories 318 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 2: are actually pretty soft. In fact, Bragman argues in favor 319 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 2: of something called self domestication theory, which has a little 320 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 2: bit of anthropological and evolutionary biological back in. And so 321 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: the basic claim of this theory is that the reason 322 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 2: Homo sapiens survived and other ancient humans didn't isn't because 323 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: we were the strongest, or the smartest, or the most 324 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 2: cun in or because we were friendlier, that we evolve 325 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 2: to be more social, cooperative, playful, and trust in self. 326 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 2: Domestication theorists basically compare humans as puppies to the other 327 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: homo species as wolves, that we domesticate ourselves to become 328 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 2: less aggressive or faces softened, our bodies became less robust, 329 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 2: and our openness and friendliness allowed us to build relationships, 330 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 2: to build groups, to raise children, community, and to survive. 331 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 2: And so if we accept our theory we had not 332 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 2: that and build that into our foundation, that we did 333 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 2: evolve our capacity to be kind, that it is something 334 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 2: that is within our humanity, that it's not a fragile 335 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 2: gloss over savagery or a morality that's given to us 336 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: by religional law. Then we can basically become who were 337 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: capable of becoming, you know, we can create systems that 338 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 2: allow us to develop that. And this sounds really optimistic, 339 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 2: This sounds really happy, go lucky and woo. And we 340 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 2: are going to get into some of the darker chapters 341 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 2: of our humanity in the next episode. But I wanted 342 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: to wrap this one up by back in the Death 343 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 2: of Catherine Kitty Genevieves in nineteen sixty four. It's another 344 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 2: example that Breckman refers to in his book, and it's 345 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,479 Speaker 2: one of the classic case studies that was used for 346 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 2: a long time to illustrate the apathy and cold heartness 347 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 2: of humanity. Because the New York Times, which as we 348 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 2: all know, is a reputable and trustworthy institution, The New 349 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 2: York Times claimed that she was stabbed in the street 350 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: while thirty eight neighbors looked on and did nothing. Right. 351 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 2: This was the quintessential story that was used to say, 352 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: you know, look at that bystanding effect. Humans just don't care, 353 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: you know. There was used as an example of apathy, 354 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 2: of urban de kay, of everything wrong with us. But 355 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 2: the story was wrong. The reporters will help this story 356 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 2: and it was wrong. I mean, yes, she was murdered, 357 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 2: but people did try to help. Someone called the police, 358 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 2: but this wasn't a time before nine one one, so 359 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 2: it was yet to call like the local station, and 360 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: then the response process was a bit slow. One neighbor 361 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: actually rushed out and held her as she died, held 362 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,719 Speaker 2: her in their arms. So the press spun this story 363 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 2: as like some bleak tale, and the few of psychology 364 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 2: ate it up because it was part of a trend 365 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 2: at the time to create this perception of humanity, but 366 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: the real story was a lot more hearing, a lot 367 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: more human. I mean, it was messy and somebody still 368 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 2: murdered her. But this this idea of the byastounding the 369 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 2: fact that has been so inflated. A lot of the 370 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: key studies that have been used as examples of them 371 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 2: have been chipped away at over time, and that's one 372 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 2: of the main stories that has been pretty thoroughly debunked 373 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: at this point. So I like where Bregman's been going. 374 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 2: But we've glossed over the dark side, you know, the 375 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 2: shadow of our humanity. You know, even he acknowledges in 376 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: this book that we do bad stuff as well. So 377 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 2: the next episode we are gonna wade into that. But 378 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 2: how you're feeling about humanity so far. 379 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 3: I think I actually do have an underlying optimism like 380 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 3: beneath how I move around in the world, which is 381 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 3: which is kind of odd considering the sort of stuff 382 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 3: I do for work, but it is it is true, 383 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 3: and I think part of that is what just keeps 384 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 3: me going. I don't know, like, yeah, I've I've I've 385 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 3: certainly been around my fair share of like doomers and nihilists, 386 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 3: over the years, and at the very least those people 387 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 3: don't seem to be very happy and don't seem to 388 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 3: be enjoying life, and sometimes it's hard to enjoy life, absolutely, 389 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 3: but I think I think you need to be able 390 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 3: to find a place for yourself within a world that 391 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 3: has like evil as a almost inherent component and find 392 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 3: your way either through that, sometimes around that, but oftentimes 393 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 3: through it. And I think that's I mean, that's that's 394 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 3: just been a part of like growing up. We're certainly 395 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 3: growing up in like a weird time, but I think 396 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 3: that's kind of always been true, like that that was 397 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 3: true one hundred years ago. So I don't know, I 398 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 3: part of me and maybe this is just over the optimistic, 399 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 3: but but part of me continues to resist being a 400 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 3: doomer despite all of the bad news that is trying 401 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 3: to infiltrate my brain at all times, which is which 402 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 3: is a very profitable industry, right, I mean, that's somewhat 403 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 3: kind of what this show is, right. It kind of 404 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 3: does play into those instincts for sure, which is which 405 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 3: is something that like we critique amongst ourselves often and 406 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 3: we try to always find that balance as well. But 407 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 3: but yeah, like the doom cycle is like a A 408 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 3: is a huge industry, and there's there's people that absolutely 409 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 3: want you to always be panicking all the time. Yeah, 410 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 3: and that drives consumer choices, that drives AD revenue, right. 411 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 2: I mean Bregman puts forward a very compellent argument in 412 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 2: the book actually that the news is a public health 413 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 2: asset totally. 414 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, like absolutely, and like I have to keep 415 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 3: up with the news all the time, and I don't 416 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 3: think it affects me that much anymore. And certainly in 417 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 3: you know, doing a daily news show, we try to 418 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 3: be very selective in the things that we cover. We 419 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 3: don't cover everything all the time. We try to cover 420 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 3: the things that, like our hosts feel is both like 421 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 3: within their wheelhouse and people who listen to the show 422 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 3: should know about write certain things that you might not 423 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 3: be hearing about in like a mainstream news. But no, 424 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 3: the news has a massive thing spiritual evil to it 425 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 3: as well. There is there is a sinister undercurrent to 426 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 3: like the news, like as like an industry indeed, and 427 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 3: that's something that we are also always like butting up against. 428 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 3: Well on on that optimistic. 429 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 2: Note, yeah, until next time, we'll follow it to all 430 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 2: the people peace. 431 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 432 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 433 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 434 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 435 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: now find sources for it could Happen Here listed directly 436 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.