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Speaker 1: This is the Meeater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear.

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Speaker 2: Listening past, you can't.

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Speaker 1: Predict anything brought to you by first Light. When I'm hunting,

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Speaker 1: I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds, no compromise,

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Speaker 1: gear that keeps me in the field longer, no shortcuts,

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Speaker 1: just gear that works. Check it out at first light

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Speaker 1: dot com. That's f I R S T L I

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Speaker 1: T E dot com. All right, ladies and gentlemen, we're

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Speaker 1: fixing the follow. Uh, we're fixing the follow some blood trails.

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Speaker 2: You like that?

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Speaker 1: That's good. Yeah, it's a good start. Go follow some

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Speaker 1: serious blood trails. Uh, you guys, listen to the show.

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Speaker 1: Sometime ago on our on our on the Meat Eater

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Speaker 1: podcast feed, we ran a thing called blood Trails and

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Speaker 1: it was put together and hosted by doctor Jordan Sillers.

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Speaker 2: Who's sitting with me right now.

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Speaker 1: Not a medical doctor, No, not a medical doctor of

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Speaker 1: English English, that's right. Yeah, yeah, he specializes in speaking

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Speaker 1: in this language.

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Speaker 2: Yep. I can only help you study this language.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I can only help you medically if you're you know,

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Speaker 3: gonna die of bad grammar.

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Speaker 1: Along those lines are you trying to explain something to

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Speaker 1: the doctor. You can't get your point across. You might

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Speaker 1: have come to a doctor like this, there you go,

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Speaker 1: will help you put it into clear, concise, powerful prose.

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Speaker 1: So in that way, he's a medical professional. He ran,

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Speaker 1: We ran blood trails, and the blood trails app it

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Speaker 1: was kind of like it was like a I don't

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Speaker 1: know I put it.

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Speaker 2: It was a It was an inaugural.

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Speaker 1: It was a test episode where we told a story

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Speaker 1: of an unsolved of an unsolved murder.

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Speaker 2: We recap that murder real quick. It's kind of the

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Speaker 2: who the who, what where why? Yeah? Sure.

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Speaker 3: So it was a hunter in Virginia named David Stack

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Speaker 3: and he went out hunting with his son and his

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Speaker 3: brother and it was, you know, opening day of turkey season.

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Speaker 3: He went out and his son and brother came back

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Speaker 3: to their cabin and he didn't show up, so they

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Speaker 3: went out searching for him. They searched and searched. Eventually

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Speaker 3: they found him. He'd been shot with a twenty two

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Speaker 3: caliber rifle projectile and they had never figured out who

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Speaker 3: did it. The Virginia Wildlife Agency was in charge of

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Speaker 3: the murder investigation, and they were never able to name

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Speaker 3: a suspect. The friend of the family who I spoke with,

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Speaker 3: has some you know, ideas about some of perhaps the

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Speaker 3: neighbors maybe knew something or were involved.

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Speaker 2: This is just me as a dude.

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Speaker 3: Yes, sure, sure, but for whatever reason, they were never

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Speaker 3: they were never able to collect the evidence.

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Speaker 2: Then private land, how many people could be there?

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Speaker 3: Well, so this is part of the thing, is that

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Speaker 3: one one of the neighboring landowners was allegedly guiding you know,

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Speaker 3: turkey hunters, which he was not supposed to do. So

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Speaker 3: it's possible that there were some people in those woods

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Speaker 3: who were not neighbors, who were strangers to the area.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the thing I meant by his private

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Speaker 1: land meaning Okay, how many possible people were running around

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Speaker 1: the woods. I listened to the episode. Mind it blows

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Speaker 1: my mind.

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Speaker 3: I I know, I know. And I talked with like.

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Speaker 1: You could fit the people that did it. It's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you could fit them around this table. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it'd be like you'd call them in. I'd be

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Speaker 1: like with my kids, I'd be like, we're all staying

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Speaker 1: here until someone admits.

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Speaker 3: So you shot the guy. That might be unconstitutional. I'm

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Speaker 3: not I'm not sure. I'm not a lawyer, but I

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Speaker 3: don't think that's allowed. But yeah, you know, it really is.

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Speaker 3: It's like, what can we find evidence for? And if

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Speaker 3: there's no evidence? And I talked with our buddy Brent Reeves,

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Speaker 3: who was in law enforcement for a long time, and

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Speaker 3: he explained to me the difficulty of investigating a crime

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Speaker 3: scene like this because you don't know how large it is.

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Speaker 3: It's very difficult to find physical evidence because you know,

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Speaker 3: the leaves hide things, and you know, it's just tough.

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Speaker 3: So they were never able to name a suspect. I'm

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Speaker 3: sure investigators have suspicions, but yeah, but if you're an investigator,

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Speaker 3: you can't. You know, you got one shot, right, And

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Speaker 3: this is something that's been as I've reported these other cases. Investigators,

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Speaker 3: you know, they tell me this, you get one shot

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Speaker 3: at a conviction, and if you don't have what you need,

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Speaker 3: you walk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but they need to bring in one of those

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Speaker 1: cold case specialists, those real crack commando investigators.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, come on, I'm sure I'm sure the family would

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Speaker 3: welcome that. And I know that there have been I

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Speaker 3: don't know about crack commandos, but you know people assigned

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Speaker 3: specifically to this case. Over the years and they haven't

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Speaker 3: you know, made any headway that they're able to share

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Speaker 3: with the public. I don't know that they haven't made head.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, that they're will open about open exactly.

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Speaker 2: So anyways, we do a piece on this. We did

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Speaker 2: a piece on this. It's great.

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Speaker 1: Jordan's like I said, researched it, hosted it, it was great.

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Speaker 2: People were very enthusiastic about it.

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Speaker 1: So we've were launching this series Blood Trails and doing

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Speaker 1: a whole bunch of these stories about these like murders

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Speaker 1: and events.

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Speaker 2: That involve hunters, right, hunters and hunters, anglers, outdoorsmen yep.

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Speaker 1: So it's like it's like these kind of crime stories

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Speaker 1: that are very outdoor focused.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, they're they're very outdoor focused. I really want

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Speaker 3: to stick to that. You know, it's hunters, anglers, campers, hikers,

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Speaker 3: public land users, people who are in the out of

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Speaker 3: doors doing the things that we all love to do,

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Speaker 3: and something terrible happens and sometimes, uh, you know, the

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Speaker 3: hunter is the victim. We do have a pretty serious

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Speaker 3: story in this first season where the hunter is the

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Speaker 3: perpetrator of the crime, and so it's related to hunters

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Speaker 3: and anglers in some way all these stories are and

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Speaker 3: you know, I think that that gives us a perspective

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Speaker 3: on these cases that you know, your run of the

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Speaker 3: mill true crime podcast is not going to have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You know a lot of times.

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Speaker 1: My kids, like some of the my kids listen to

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Speaker 1: my older one especially, he listens to some like crime stuff,

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Speaker 1: and they're just kind of working off Wikipedia pages, right,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like they're not doing And

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Speaker 1: I tried to explain him all the time, like you

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Speaker 1: realize these dudes like read a couple of books, right,

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Speaker 1: and they're just horking people's material.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, a lot of it, Like they're not doing

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Speaker 3: anything right. Yeah, and that is you know a lot

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Speaker 3: of true crime podcasts, not all. Some of them do

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Speaker 3: a really great job. There's lots of original reporting, but

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Speaker 3: a auto true crime podcasts the format is they read

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Speaker 3: news articles, they read a book, they read Wikipedia, they

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Speaker 3: explain to you what happened, and then usually there's two

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Speaker 3: people and they kind.

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Speaker 2: Of react to that.

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Speaker 3: This this series is not that I really wanted to

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Speaker 3: make a point of talking with the people who were involved,

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Speaker 3: whether that's the family of the victim, you know, law

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Speaker 3: enforcement who investigated the case outside people who have you know,

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Speaker 3: professionals who have looked at the case. So what you're

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Speaker 3: getting adds to the story, right, It's not just you

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Speaker 3: know what you already know about the story. It's it's

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Speaker 3: information that you didn't know from the people who were involved. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, I record the interviews and we put them together,

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Speaker 3: just like in that first episode about the Turkey Hunter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so how deep is the how deep is the well?

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Speaker 1: Like when you start looking at when you go back

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Speaker 1: and you have to explain how far back in time

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Speaker 1: you went. Yeah, when you start looking like, how many

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Speaker 1: cases like this, murder cases, disappearance cases involve the outdoor community,

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Speaker 1: do you find that that it winds up being that

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Speaker 1: it's that it's dozens that it's hard to find ten.

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Speaker 3: There are quite a few, you know, the the example

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Speaker 3: of a hunter who's killed in the woods, there's going

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Speaker 3: to be a fairly limited number of those. But if

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Speaker 3: we're talking about campers and hikers who disappear on public land,

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Speaker 3: there are you know, potentially thousands.

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Speaker 2: There was actually a bill.

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Speaker 3: I believe it was called the Trace Act in the

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Speaker 3: US Congress was introduced and basically the idea was to

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Speaker 3: start recording and putting together a database of people who

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Speaker 3: disappear on public land.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 3: And one of the statistics they cited was sixteen hundred

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Speaker 3: people have disappeared, and I forget that the time for

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Speaker 3: of that, but you know, nearly two thousand people have

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Speaker 3: disappeared on public land in the last whatever ten or

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Speaker 3: twenty years. And obviously the majority of those are not

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Speaker 3: going to be like a criminal case, right, It's not

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Speaker 3: going to be like foul play won't be suspected. It

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Speaker 3: will be just someone you know, got lost and couldn't

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Speaker 3: find their way out. But you know a certain number

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Speaker 3: of those there were other people who they were with.

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Speaker 3: We have a case in this first season of a

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Speaker 3: hunter who went out with his two friends and disappeared,

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Speaker 3: and those two friends came back. And the question is

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Speaker 3: you know, right, like so so there are there are

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Speaker 3: those types of cases, and you know there are plenty

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Speaker 3: I think for us to to cover.

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Speaker 2: You know, watching you work on this and helping on

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Speaker 2: a couple of them. A little bit. A thing that

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Speaker 2: I kept thinking of is I used to where I

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Speaker 2: grew up.

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Speaker 1: I would I used to trap muskrats on a piece

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Speaker 1: of the Manisteine National Forest I remember it was into

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Speaker 1: I was trapping this marsh on the firearm opener.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, and this guy there's a missing guy.

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Speaker 1: And eventually find him and he had shot himself leaning

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Speaker 1: against the tree, shot himself in the head, leaning against.

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Speaker 2: Tree, dering gunsies, yeah, okay. And where he was, I

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Speaker 2: mean I had muskrat traps seventy five yards from there. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I and I was like waiting. I was in

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Speaker 2: high school.

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Speaker 1: I was waiting for someone to come and put the

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Speaker 1: screws to me a little bit. I had never heard

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Speaker 1: a word, never heard a word, and I eventually started

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Speaker 1: to I guess, no one's gonna come talk to me.

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Speaker 2: But I was like kind of paranoid. Yeah, yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: someone to come talk to you. But I'd have to

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Speaker 2: explain how I like a shot. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, don't know anymore than you guys do. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I got trapped strung all along that hole. He was

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Speaker 1: like right up in the oaks, like come out of

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Speaker 1: the cattails, and he was just sitting right up there.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know he was there. Yeah, But I just

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Speaker 1: always like come. No one never came and asked me

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Speaker 1: if I heard something, saw something did something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean maybe it was very clear from the scene,

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Speaker 3: could have been it was it was a suicide.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I talked to an investigator one time that did a

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Speaker 1: guy killed himself at a campfire, and the investigator came

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Speaker 1: in and he's like, I looked and knew what happened.

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Speaker 1: But of course I couldn't take that mindset, right, So

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Speaker 1: I initially, yeah, I'm like, oh, he shot himself, but

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Speaker 1: don't touch anything.

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Speaker 2: Treat it like a crime scene.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think until he got until they got

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Speaker 1: to a point where like the obvious was true, but

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Speaker 1: just ruling out the idea that it was that it

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Speaker 1: was stage to look that.

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Speaker 3: Way right, right, because that's always possible, And that is

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Speaker 3: one thing law enforcement, you know, says, is always assume

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Speaker 3: it's a homicide if someone has died, right, assuming it's

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Speaker 3: a homicide until you have evidence proving otherwise.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about this Wisconsin. Let's talk about this Wisconsin,

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Speaker 1: this Wisconsin hunter and the Bear Boo Hills there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the reason that one strikes me. Yeah, that story really

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Speaker 1: strikes me. From the seventies, right, nineteen seventy seven, Yeah, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I just knew all the place names. Yeah, right, because

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Speaker 1: every year once or twice a year. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: a flying to Madison, see the Barboo Hills, right, go

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Speaker 1: to my buddy dogs. My buddy dog tells me this

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Speaker 1: that their thing, and so familiar with the roads, been

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Speaker 1: on the roads.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And so I don't know. It just struck

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Speaker 2: me because I was like, oh, should I know that spot?

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Speaker 2: I know the spot? I know those places. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But talk about that guy a little bit, because here's

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Speaker 1: another one. Like dudes, they were well, they were very

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Speaker 1: early bowhunters.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, nineteen seventy seven.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like nineteen seventy eight bow hunters. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: that paints a picture in your head immediately because bow

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Speaker 1: hunting culture was very small.

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Speaker 2: Yeah in seventy eight yep.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so this this happened again in nineteen seventy seven.

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Speaker 2: I keep saying seventy eight. Sorry, seventy eight, Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 2: seventy seven.

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Speaker 3: You know in that that there was opening day of

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Speaker 3: both season in Wisconsin. The guy's name was Robert Christian.

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Speaker 3: He went by Bob, and he had he had a

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Speaker 3: plan with his friend Randy. He lived in Madison, Bob did.

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Speaker 3: Randy lived up in Barriboo and so they were planning

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Speaker 3: on hunting some land north of Barriboo on that Saturday,

256
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Speaker 3: and so Bob took his mom's car. He had a

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Speaker 3: motorcycle that he usually drove, but it was in the

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Speaker 3: shop for some reason.

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Speaker 2: But he wouldn't have taken it.

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Speaker 1: I know that's a part of it. But he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have taken his motorbike out to go. I mean, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think he wouldn't.

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Speaker 2: Have liked hung his bowl over his back.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, this is according This is according to

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Speaker 3: his sister. His sister kind of who I spoke with,

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Speaker 3: made a point of mentioning he had a motorbike. It

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Speaker 3: was in the shop, and his his mom let him

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Speaker 3: drive her brand new AMC Hornet.

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Speaker 2: So maybe he would have taken that bike maybe.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it seemed like something he drove around a lot.

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Speaker 3: And this piece is interesting because it kind of speaks

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Speaker 3: to Bob's character that his mom he was eighteen, so,

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Speaker 3: you know, not very old. His mom let him take

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Speaker 3: her brand like this is a brand new car, right,

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Speaker 3: she just bought it. And so he was. He was

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Speaker 3: a good kid. He had just started at the University

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Speaker 3: of Wisconsin Madison. He was going to be a computer

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Speaker 3: science major. You know, good grades. You know, he had

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Speaker 3: lots of friends.

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Speaker 1: So he's an early adopter on archery season, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: he's an early adopter on computer science.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: He probably would have been a millionaire by now because

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Speaker 3: he was. He was right there at the beginning. So

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Speaker 3: he's supposed to meet Randy at six o'clock at his house.

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Speaker 3: They're gonna spend the night and then get up early

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Speaker 3: the next morning. Six o'clock rolls around, Bob hasn't shown up.

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Speaker 3: And like everyone I talked with about Bob really emphasized

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Speaker 3: like this was unusual for him because again, he's a

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Speaker 3: good kid. He's there on time. If he says he's

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Speaker 3: gonna be there, he's not gonna, you know, make Randy's

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Speaker 3: mom wait to start dinner.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: One of his relatives said, if he says he's gonna

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Speaker 1: do something, yeah, exactly exactly. So they're kind of immediately concerned.

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Speaker 1: They don't, you know, they don't think like, oh, he's

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Speaker 1: been abducted, right, They their first thought is he's been

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Speaker 1: in some kind of car accident. And so so the

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Speaker 1: Randy's last name is Griffiths. So the Griffiths call the

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Speaker 1: Christians and they kind of call back and forth, like

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Speaker 1: where's Bob.

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Speaker 3: We don't know where he went, and so they start

303
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Speaker 3: calling like hospitals, they they do call law enforcement, I think,

304
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Speaker 3: just to see if there'd been a road accident, you know,

305
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Speaker 3: if he'd gotten into some kind of accident on the way,

306
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Speaker 3: and they don't. There's there's no sign of him. And

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Speaker 3: so they spend the next day on Saturday, I think,

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Speaker 3: like again calling around some of you know, Bob's friends

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Speaker 3: other family members, like has anyone seen him? Did he

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Speaker 3: go somewhere else for some reason that that you know,

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Speaker 3: he didn't say he would, And still no sign of him.

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Speaker 3: So on Sunday they go out to look for him.

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Speaker 3: They're just driving the roads and they find the car.

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Speaker 3: They find Bob's mom's car. It's parked up kind of

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Speaker 3: on this like it's the road's name is Tower Road.

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Speaker 3: I think there was like some kind of radio tower.

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Speaker 2: It's like up in.

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Speaker 3: A very rural kind of remote area, just like a

319
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Speaker 3: side road up there, and the car doesn't have any

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Speaker 3: wheels or tires. It's just like sitting on the ground

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Speaker 3: for some reason. Bob's his his hunting stuff is gone.

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Speaker 3: His letterman jacket is in the car. And then I

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Speaker 3: think Bob's mom was a nurse, and so her nursing

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Speaker 3: kit is in the car.

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Speaker 2: Kid just bought some swish or sweets.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So so we swished.

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Speaker 2: Sweets in the car. I don't that really put me

328
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Speaker 2: in a certain place in time? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because he went got twenty five bucks from the

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Speaker 1: bank and then went and bought swish or sweets.

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Speaker 2: It was like, dude, like, I know this guy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, from that, you know his

333
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Speaker 3: his sister said he loved hanging out with his friends, smoking,

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Speaker 3: you know, playing cards, and so yeah, so that's that's

335
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Speaker 3: a we know that. The last thing we know that

336
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,479
Speaker 3: he did was he made two stops in Madison. One

337
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:48,680
Speaker 3: was at the bank, the other was at a convenience store,

338
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Speaker 3: and from there he drove up and we don't know

339
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Speaker 3: what happened after that.

340
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Speaker 2: And so there's so many details to it, but like.

341
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Speaker 3: There's there's a lot, there's a lot, you know, but

342
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Speaker 3: the kind of bottom line is, to this day, we

343
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Speaker 3: don't know what happened to him.

344
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Speaker 2: There are theories, but in none of that archery equipment,

345
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Speaker 2: none of that stuff ever.

346
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Speaker 3: Ever turned up. Yeah, none of it ever turned up.

347
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Speaker 3: A really important piece of this is that the area

348
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Speaker 3: his car was found was an area that he grew

349
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Speaker 3: up hunting in, so it wasn't and that's kind of

350
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Speaker 3: why they were up there looking because they thought, well,

351
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Speaker 3: maybe he went up here right for some reason. Even

352
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Speaker 3: though it wasn't on the way to Randy's house. It

353
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 3: was a detour that would have made him late, but

354
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Speaker 3: he was familiar with that area. His sister said where

355
00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,240
Speaker 3: the car was found was not where they usually parked

356
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Speaker 3: in that area, So it was kind of odd that

357
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Speaker 3: he would have parked up that little side road. But

358
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Speaker 3: you wonder maybe he just went up to do some scouting,

359
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 3: took his bow, went in the woods. They conducted obviously

360
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Speaker 3: an extensive search of the area. They brought in you know, dogs,

361
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Speaker 3: they brought in a helic. They didn't have drones at

362
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,879
Speaker 3: the time, but you know, they did do aerial search.

363
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,520
Speaker 3: The detective who's in charge of this this investigation told

364
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,880
Speaker 3: me that the family, you know, still goes up there

365
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,280
Speaker 3: right and like looks around. Maybe he we just never

366
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,119
Speaker 3: found him. Maybe he had some kind of medical emergency

367
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Speaker 3: and we just never found him in these woods. But

368
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Speaker 3: the detective I talked with he didn't because I sort

369
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 3: of asked him, like, could he have just like gotten

370
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Speaker 3: hurt or lost in the woods, and he doesn't. He

371
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 3: doesn't think that's likely. He thinks they would have found him.

372
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Speaker 3: But it is a weird piece that his hunting stuff,

373
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Speaker 3: his bow was not in the car, right, because if

374
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Speaker 3: he'd been abducted, why would the abductor take his bow? Right,

375
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Speaker 3: That's kind of a weird thing to do.

376
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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's.

377
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Speaker 4: There's also that whole wrinkle about that nun who sees

378
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Speaker 4: I don't know how much you want to like give

379
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,639
Speaker 4: away on the podcast, but there's so many like wrinkles

380
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 4: to it that are so interesting.

381
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

382
00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, So so a few days into the investigation, you're.

383
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:03,720
Speaker 2: Taking the bait on that.

384
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you gotta Phil brings up the nun. You

385
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:07,760
Speaker 3: gotta talk about the nun.

386
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Speaker 2: Film might have a little I don't know, little thing

387
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:14,080
Speaker 2: you're saying.

388
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Speaker 1: I'm a part of this case, Steve, although I thought

389
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Speaker 1: maybe maybe he's interested nuns.

390
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:19,720
Speaker 2: I gave you all the clues.

391
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 3: So they they found They find out that just about

392
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Speaker 3: a mile down the road from where Bob's car was found,

393
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 3: a nun there was there was a convent. Now it's

394
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,400
Speaker 3: like a retreat center, but at the time it was

395
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Speaker 3: it was a convent.

396
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Speaker 2: A mile from the car was about a mile yep.

397
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Speaker 3: Just down the road. And they realized that that there

398
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Speaker 3: was a nun who lived in a cabin and she'd

399
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:43,960
Speaker 3: been gone for a few days. She came back to

400
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,960
Speaker 3: her house and realized someone had been living in her house.

401
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 3: They hadn't like ransacked it and stolen stuff. It seemed

402
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 3: like they'd actually been like living in her cabin.

403
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 2: And so this.

404
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 3: Obviously freaks her out. She calls her friend, whose name

405
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,119
Speaker 3: is Mary, to drive over and just like be with

406
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 3: her because she doesn't know if whoever this is gonna

407
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,439
Speaker 3: come back, right he wasn't there at the time, And

408
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,120
Speaker 3: so Mary drives over, and when she pulls up into

409
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 3: this driveway, she sees a car that's running but in

410
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 3: the driveway, and she makes a note which is like

411
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,920
Speaker 3: pretty incredible. She makes a note of the license plate number.

412
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 3: She writes it down, and she walks up to this

413
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 3: car and the driver rolls down the window and he says,

414
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 3: either I'm looking for my friend or at other times

415
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 3: she said he said I'm looking for my friend Bob,

416
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 3: and her description of him matches Bob. She said he

417
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 3: was a young guy, brown hair, glasses. But then later,

418
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 3: according to the reports, she saw a picture of Bob

419
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 3: and was like, ah, maybe it wasn't him. I don't know,

420
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 3: So that's also a little bit uncuo. So so she

421
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 3: wrote down the license plate number, which is how we

422
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 3: know that was Bob's car. So, whoever, whoever was driving it,

423
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 3: whether it was Bob or someone else, it was Bob's car.

424
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,160
Speaker 3: And this was I think like nine nine or maybe

425
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 3: like nine pm, ten pm at nights. This was at

426
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 3: night after you know, people had been worried about him.

427
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 3: This was that Friday night for its got stripped. Yeah,

428
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 3: this was that Friday night. And so and so Mary

429
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 3: said that the car drove back down the driveway and

430
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 3: then turned away from where the car was eventually found.

431
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 3: So for some reason it turned the opposite direction and

432
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 3: then eventually made its way back to where it was found,

433
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 3: after which time the wheels and tires were stripped for

434
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 3: some reason. Those hub caps were eventually found at a

435
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 3: rock quarry, which is another piece of this, but it's

436
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 3: just a really creepy interaction. Man, right, and and Amy,

437
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 3: Bob's sister, thinks that it's possible, and I think Randy

438
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,479
Speaker 3: had said this as well, who I also spoke with.

439
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 3: They think it's possible that Bob that someone else was

440
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 3: in the car. It was dark, and so Mary doesn't

441
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,880
Speaker 3: know whether anyone else was in the car. They think

442
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 3: someone else could have been in the car, maybe holding

443
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 3: Bob at gunpoint, and he was kind of trying to

444
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 3: drop a hint, like I'm looking for my friend Bob.

445
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 3: He didn't want to say anything that would like upset

446
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 3: this person. But she thinks maybe he was trying to

447
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 3: send a message.

448
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: And you know, we.

449
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 3: Don't know whether that person who was with Bob maybe

450
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 3: could have been the same person who had been staying

451
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 3: in the nun's house. We don't know. We don't even

452
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,640
Speaker 3: know that those two things are connected. Yeah, And part

453
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 3: of the problem it's possible. But part of the problem

454
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 3: it was never like investigated super closely, at least right away,

455
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 3: is because there's a county line that separates where Bob's

456
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 3: car was found from the nuns house.

457
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, because well because if he was in there, if

458
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 1: he was in there for ten minutes, well they wouldn't

459
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: have known it, they wouldn't have done it. At the time,

460
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: if he was in there for ten minutes.

461
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 3: There's hair, there's oh yeah, right, but.

462
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 2: At that time they wouldn't have yeah. Yeah.

463
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 3: So at the time, you know, the one law enforcement

464
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 3: the you know, the county sheriff investigated Bob's car and

465
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,360
Speaker 3: Bob's disappearance, but then across the county line, another sheriff's

466
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 3: department was investigating the nuns you know, break in, and

467
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 3: they didn't think they were related because according to Amy,

468
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 3: those two departments just didn't like interact, didn't like each other,

469
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 3: didn't communicate well, and so like all the evidence was

470
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 3: cleaned up from the nuns house because they just thought

471
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 3: someone broke in, not a big deal though they didn't

472
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,199
Speaker 3: connect it. And you know, who knows if that evidence

473
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,479
Speaker 3: would have been preserved. Now we have that ability to

474
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 3: analyze DNA, we could have maybe made some headway there,

475
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 3: but it just doesn't exist. The evidence isn't there.

476
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: Years ago, we did an episode, like there's parts of

477
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 1: the story that remind me of this. We did an

478
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:17,239
Speaker 1: episode with Pat Dirkin, and there was a story of

479
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: a couple guys that went missing, a couple of ice

480
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: fishermen that went missing for many, many years and there's

481
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: just little snippets of what they had done, what might

482
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: have happened to them.

483
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 2: They vanished a winter night.

484
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 1: Some of the people felt that maybe they there was

485
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 1: even this idea merged that they ran off and started

486
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: new lives somewhere. The last sighting of them, which seemed

487
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: like it would have been them, is they had gone

488
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 1: to a guy that sold live bait and woke them

489
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: up like one or two in the morning to buy minnows.

490
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 2: Yeah. They're dedicated, Yeah, dedicated.

491
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And there was questions about who was in the car,

492
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 1: what they had done that night, what their relationship was like.

493
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 1: But anyways, all these years later, a dude, a Walleye fishermen,

494
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: a guy that was really interested in side.

495
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 2: Scan so and iron stuff. You know.

496
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, he went he's out puttsing around one time and uh,

497
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: finds a car, Yeah, dives down, pulls the license plate.

498
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: Dudes are still sitting in the car, pulls the license

499
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: plate and knows the car the whole time.

500
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: It was just right there.

501
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, all this like mystery and what happened is just

502
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: sitting at the bottle of lake.

503
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 3: Whenever anyone goes missing, there are always a million theories

504
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 3: and the same thing.

505
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: Well, did it point out they drove out just to

506
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: make for non nice fishermen for Southerners, they bought bait

507
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: and drove out on the ice.

508
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 2: Just sunk.

509
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, car went through the ice, probably refroze, snowed, whatever.

510
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 1: Just yeah, thirty years what are what happen of those guys?

511
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 3: I can't imagine, But yeah, one of the theories with

512
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 3: Bob is that he ran off for.

513
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: It's always a thing, yep, when we you know, we

514
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:22,239
Speaker 1: did a we did one about a guy that in

515
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: one of our Campfire Stories volumes, we had one about

516
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: a guy was hunting elk. No it was it was

517
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: a mountain goat hunter. Either way, he finds a body, yeah,

518
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: that have been missing for forever, and that family, the

519
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: family the missing man, they do the same thing always

520
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: in the back of your head when someone like goes missing.

521
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's primary the primary thing.

522
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: Is like that they're dead, But in the back of

523
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: your head is that they ran off and started a

524
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: new life. And so with this family that I think

525
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: for fifty years, their father had been missing. Yeah, and

526
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: there was a did he maybe run off in start

527
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: a new life and meanwhile he was right where everybody

528
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: knew he'd gone hunting. Yeah, but they searched and searched

529
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: and searched and searched, and it seems he had pulled.

530
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: A boulder over on himself.

531
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 3: Oh man, he.

532
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 1: Was going through he's going through a rocky area and

533
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: it seems like grab the wrong boulder at the wrong time.

534
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: And just yeah, it's so like gone. Yeah, it's hundreds

535
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: of people searching in the right spot.

536
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 3: Yep, never found him. Yeah, yeah, And it's it's so

537
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 3: hard for the families, you know, speaking with the people

538
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 3: who are still here, they just struggle so much, right,

539
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 3: And and like like with with you know, Bob's case,

540
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 3: speaking with his sister, you know, she she doesn't she

541
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 3: isn't holding out hope that he's still alive somewhere sure, right,

542
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 3: And the same thing. There's another case of a hunter

543
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 3: who went missing in nineteen seventy five up in Main

544
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 3: that we're going to cover, same thing with his wife,

545
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 3: Like she knows he's not alive, but they just want

546
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 3: that closure, yeah, you know, and that's really important to them.

547
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 3: So they're still and that's why they talk to me,

548
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: that's why they keep you know, they want people to

549
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 3: know about the case. So they can figure it out,

550
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 3: figure out what happened.

551
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: Let's jump to another one. This is one both you

552
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: and I worked on together a little bit where I

553
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: provide a little assistance here and there on it.

554
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: The case of a.

555
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: Family right here in right here, in our area, right

556
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: here in Galton Valley in Montana, back in nineteen ninety six,

557
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: a young girl, Danielle hutt. This gets confusing because there's

558
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: names that are very similar. How does her family pronounce

559
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: that last name?

560
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: Pouchins? Does go?

561
00:29:58,760 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 3: Yep, Puchins.

562
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 2: There's a victim, Daniel Houchens.

563
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: Okay, don't get confused, because then we have a murderer

564
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: named Paul Hutchinson. But a victim Daniel Houchins goes to

565
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: a river access site. So in Montana you have a

566
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,959
Speaker 1: lot of you have a lot of state river access sites.

567
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: We have the state has a phenomenal stream access law

568
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: where as long as you can legally get into a river,

569
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: you can then travel blow high watermark. And so these

570
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: state access sites are real focal points of activity because

571
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: it gives you a legal access into a river and

572
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: then you can go up and down the river. In

573
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six, this this young woman, she was eighteen fifteen.

574
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 2: Oh geez, yeah, sorry, I forget that.

575
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,719
Speaker 1: This young woman who's fifteen, lives down the road from

576
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: a river access site, goes down to the river access

577
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: site after having a minor argument with her with her mother,

578
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: I believe. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't come home.

579
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:05,959
Speaker 5: Uh.

580
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: The eventually search and they find her body. She had

581
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: been raped, she had drowned, or Ben drowned in mark right.

582
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, Ben drowned.

583
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

584
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: Well I'm when I'm when I say, when I point

585
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: this out, this discrepancy is it was not immediately openly

586
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: treated as a murder.

587
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it It was a mess. The sheriff at the time,

588
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 3: According to the sister of the victim, Stephanie, who was

589
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 3: very kind to speak with me, She says, the sheriff

590
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 3: at the time told the family it's possible that Danny

591
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 3: could have drowned accidentally.

592
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: So but got raped and then Quinn drowned in shallow muck.

593
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 3: Well, he didn't tell the family. He didn't tell the

594
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 3: family allegedly that she had been raped. That was news

595
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: to the family when this came out more recently.

596
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, but she was found with her with her

597
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: bra up, her underwear down, yep, Yeah, with biological material

598
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: from someone else.

599
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, fifteen years of age. Yeah.

600
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 3: No, they knew, they knew she had been raped. And

601
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 3: and to to kind of give the sheriff credit, he

602
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 3: told the media like just about a year after this happened,

603
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 3: he said, we've always treated this as a homicidek So,

604
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 3: so he acknowledged publicly that they were treating this case

605
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 3: as a homicide. The problem came because the coroner when

606
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 3: he listed the like the manner of death or like

607
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 3: the reason for death, he listed it rather than homicide.

608
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 3: He listed it as undetermined. And you know, we know

609
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 3: now based on speaking with the kind of the most

610
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 3: recent investigator on this case and the case file, it

611
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 3: was pretty clear that she had been that it was

612
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: a homicide. She had bruising on the back of her neck,

613
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 3: her lungs were they had mud in them, right, so

614
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 3: she'd been held underwater. There was obviously this horrible struggle,

615
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 3: and so but the family's kind of kept in the

616
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 3: dark about this, and the sheriff says he never lied

617
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 3: to the family, but obviously he didn't tell the family everything,

618
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 3: which is pretty standard practice. You know, even the family

619
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: can't have access to all the information because investigators are

620
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: concerned that they'll speak to the media or that things

621
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 3: will get out and it will compromise the investigation.

622
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: So I'm not I have zero, Like, I don't know

623
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: anything about law enforcement. That feels just sitting here, Yeah,

624
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: having a daughter, Yeah, that feels like way off to me.

625
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it feels way off to me.

626
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. And you know, those decisions were made back in

627
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 3: ninety six. We don't know exactly why.

628
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: But put yourself, put yourself in that situation. Oh yeah,

629
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 1: you have kids, Yeah, when your kids killed, and then

630
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: years later you're like, oh mat you uh, you didn't

631
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: tell me what happened to my daughter.

632
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you kept parts of what happened to my kid

633
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: for me.

634
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

635
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it's it's like I wasn't allowed to know. Yeah, yeah,

636
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 2: it's it's tough.

637
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 3: And you know, the reason that the family found out

638
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 3: was because Stephanie, her sister in twenty nineteen, really started

639
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 3: her for twenty years later. Yeah, over twenty years later,

640
00:34:54,920 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 3: but she applied. In Montana, they have a law that

641
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 3: allows the victims family, allows the victim's family to have

642
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 3: access to the case file. You have to there's a process,

643
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 3: there's a procedure I think a judge has to like

644
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 3: grant access. But Stephanie worked through that process with the

645
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 3: help of the Gallatin County Sheriff's office and the county attorney,

646
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 3: I believe, so she was finally able to see that

647
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 3: whole case file, which is obviously a horrible experience to

648
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 3: have to look is that crime scene photos? Everything's in there, man.

649
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 3: But but you know, eventually the family was given access

650
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: to all the information. But it took it took a

651
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 3: long time.

652
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, sitting down here, the series is incredible. I want

653
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: people to listen to the series. All the episodes are incredible.

654
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to we're kind of talking high level

655
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: impressions of some of this stuff. I just want to

656
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: skip ahead for people. But when you listen, you'll understand

657
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: how they eventually determined to suspect.

658
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 2: Thirty years after the fact. Yeah, it's incredible.

659
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 3: It's a great story.

660
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 2: Yea. Yeah, it's a determined suspect.

661
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: Turns out this guy the murderer.

662
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: Hiding in plain sight. Man. Yep. He he uh doesn't

663
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: go far, stay stays local yep.

664
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 3: Yep.

665
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: Becomes a fisheries biologist, yeah, with the BLN. Yeah, becomes

666
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 1: a BLM fisheries biologist. He's real active on like hunt

667
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: talk and active on forums.

668
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 3: Yep.

669
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: He kind of runs this little program where he does

670
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: these somewhat formalized hunt swaps yep, where he kind of

671
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: does this thing like to guys like, hey, if you

672
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: want to come hunt Montana, like, I'll line you out

673
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: on spots and then in exchange, you'll kind of line.

674
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 2: Me out on how to hunt your area.

675
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: Raises a family, two kids, hunts turkeys. Here's kind of

676
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: a weird one winds up. I think by his own

677
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: count hunts turkeys in twenty five states in the years

678
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: following this. So this guy is all over the place.

679
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 1: This guy is all over the country hanging out in rural,

680
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 1: secluded areas. It's insane what happens. But these investigators come

681
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: and they don't want it. It's an old, old case

682
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: and they don't want to come in and read him

683
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: as his rights right to fear that he's just going

684
00:37:58,239 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 1: to shut up, right.

685
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 2: It's a tough case. It's thirty years old.

686
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 3: Yep, and initially initially not listed as a homicide. That

687
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 3: was officially changed at some point, but for twenty years

688
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 3: not listed as a homicide. So you know, a defense

689
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 3: attorney is going to really hammer that, so they had

690
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 3: to be very careful with how they approached it.

691
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have this footage and this audio that that

692
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: Jordan uses. A couple of investigators come with a hidden camera.

693
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 3: I don't know that it was hidden, but you know, just.

694
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: Sure seems like it. It's not set up on a tripod.

695
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 3: No, I think it was like a I think it

696
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 3: was like a body cam. That's what I've assumed. It

697
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 3: was like a body cam. And so it's not like

698
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 3: it's not like it was hidden exactly. But it wasn't

699
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 3: like they said, we want to interview you for some documentary, right,

700
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 3: it was just law enforcement.

701
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. I only just for clarity.

702
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: I only said that because I realized it was like

703
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: on a person when or it was somehow moving around.

704
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, I shouldn't say hidden.

705
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, they film an interview and and and Jordan,

706
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: if you could explain, like, how do they.

707
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 2: Explain the pretext of the interview? Sure?

708
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the thinking behind it in the pretext of

709
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: of of how they how they approach him to begin

710
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: asking about this.

711
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 3: Day, right, So, so like you said, they're they're worried

712
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 3: he's going to lawyer up, and so they determine that

713
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 3: it's legal for them to conduct an interview with him

714
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 3: as long as it's a public place and he's always

715
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 3: free to go. So they approach him in the parking

716
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 3: lot of the BLM office in Dylan, you know, they

717
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 3: walk up to him, they say, hey, you know, we're

718
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 3: we're looking into cases of women who have been killed

719
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 3: along rivers in Montana. And they say, as a fisheries

720
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 3: biologist who's always on the rivers, we're hoping that you

721
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 3: can provide it's an insight into some.

722
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 2: Of these cases.

723
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 3: So they don't just talk about Danny's case. They have

724
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 3: I think four cases.

725
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 1: That was one of the most sickening things about it, yeah,

726
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: is they're like, here's a woman from a river in Livingston. Yeah,

727
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 1: here's a woman from a river. Here, here's a woman

728
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: from a river here.

729
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: Was like, how many of these people are right? Right? Yeah?

730
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 3: So they they did, unfortunately, have some you know, other

731
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 3: cases that they could bring up. And I've looked into

732
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 3: a few of those others and they weren't all you know,

733
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 3: under suspicious circumstances necessarily, but there are real cases. They

734
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 3: didn't just make them up. They are real cases, and.

735
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: I figured they had to have been.

736
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think that, like you said, like legally,

737
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: I think that if you came with a completely phony

738
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: if you if you came in with like completely phony information,

739
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: I imagined it would somehow tarnish what you're doing.

740
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 3: It might I think, you know, they want it to

741
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 3: be as realistic as possible to not tip Paul off

742
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 3: that this is some like you know, sting operation. So

743
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 3: I'm sure they were worried that if they tried to

744
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 3: use fake cases that he would become suspicious. Right if

745
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 3: for whatever reason he knew it was fake, he could

746
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 3: figure it out. So they run through these cases. They say,

747
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 3: you know, they have pictures of each of the victims.

748
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 3: They put them in front of Paul. They say, have

749
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 3: you heard of this person? You know she was killed

750
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 3: on such and such river. Do you know anyone who

751
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 3: might be able to help us, Any fishing guides, you know,

752
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 3: guys who own tackle shops, like anyone we can talk

753
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 3: to you about these. They do this one at a time,

754
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 3: and then the last one is is Danny, and they

755
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,919
Speaker 3: they they pushed the picture in front of him and

756
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 3: he'd you know, this is not like an explosive moment

757
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 3: where he just like breaks down, right, But you can

758
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 3: tell he's uncomfortable, like he doesn't know exactly whether to

759
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 3: like look the picture or like look back and be

760
00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 3: kind of nonchalant about it.

761
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: He goes into a mega chill affectation.

762
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kind of how it came.

763
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: To doing a very dramatic he's kicking back, he's got

764
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: his arms behind his head. Yeah, he gets really reclined.

765
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 2: Yep. He tries to like go into this real like breezy.

766
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 3: He keeps asking what was her name?

767
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 2: Again?

768
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, what was her name? Danielle?

769
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 2: That's a good one. I got no idea, boy, I

770
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 2: don't know. Yeah, he has to be excused for a minute.

771
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 3: He does multiple times. Yeah, throughout throughout the interview. I

772
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 3: think it's three or four times he has to be excused.

773
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 3: He says that one of his texts is texting him,

774
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 3: one of his you know, subordinates is texting him and

775
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 3: has a problem with something.

776
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 2: That's the pretext he uses.

777
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 3: I don't know if that was true or not, but

778
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:54,359
Speaker 3: he does leave multiple times. Oh yeah, it's it's tough

779
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 3: to watch. I mean, it really is just knowing what

780
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 3: what happened, and and the investigators are not like they

781
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,919
Speaker 3: they play it pretty cool, but they definitely are there

782
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 3: to get information, right, They're there to ask him, where

783
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 3: were you in nineteen ninety six? We are you familiar

784
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 3: with this fishing access? Were you trapping in that area?

785
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 3: Were you fishing in that area? And so that's really

786
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 3: what they're there for. They want him on tape admitting

787
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 3: to being in the area around that time. And you know,

788
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 3: again he plays it pretty cool, like he keeps asking

789
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 3: what year again, I don't know. It's either I was

790
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 3: either there in ninety five or ninety six. I can't

791
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 3: you know. So he kind of dissembles a little bit,

792
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 3: but again, like plays it fairly cool, considering sure what

793
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 3: they're asking, you know, and considering this may be the

794
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 3: first time he's ever been approached or asked about this.

795
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, to be fair, man, like, no, when you

796
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 2: watch it, knowing what you know, yeah, you see that

797
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 2: like he's.

798
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: Doing an overblown relaxed right because knowing what you know.

799
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: But but to be fair, it wasn't. He didn't there

800
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:14,399
Speaker 1: was no like uh, infallible tell right, But knowing what

801
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: you know, there's like, buddy, there's no way you're relaxed

802
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: right now, No way, but you're doing a way that

803
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 1: you're kicked back and chatty. Yeah, yeah, trying to be helpful,

804
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: but I don't know that's his attitude exactly.

805
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 2: I'd love to help, but I probably I don't know.

806
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 2: I'm just sound just chilled out down here at the

807
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 2: end of the table. Yeah.

808
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 3: One of the one of the kind of unbelievable things

809
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 3: he says is like, I don't I don't know, like

810
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 3: I've never fished these rivers like I just fished, you know,

811
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 3: the little streams are like I don't know any fishing

812
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 3: guides who can help you. I don't know anyone who

813
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 3: can help It's like you're a fishery biologist who is

814
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 3: Like he seemed to be primarily into hunting, but of course,

815
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 3: you know, I'm sure he also did fishing. He had

816
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 3: a fishing boat, like I'm sure he did some fishing.

817
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 3: And just like the idea that he didn't know any

818
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 3: anyone who could help them is kind of unbelievable.

819
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 2: You know.

820
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: The thing to surprise me during during as you were

821
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: working on this, and I'm curious to see if you

822
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: if you ran into this in other cases too, people

823
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: that were close. There were a lot of people that

824
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: were close to him, were not a lot There was

825
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: people that were close to him that that don't want

826
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: the story talked about. They don't want the story out

827
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 1: there out of concern for the murderer's family. They just

828
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: wanted to go away, right, Yeah, Which you look at

829
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 1: me like, I I I see why you think that,

830
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: But I don't think that. I don't feel that way,

831
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: Like I don't feel that it's taboo. Yeah, I don't

832
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: feel that it's taboo to talk about something like this.

833
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 5: No.

834
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 2: Uh, but I see why you feel that way.

835
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: But did you find that in other instances did you

836
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,919
Speaker 1: did you find that people are like, I don't let's

837
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 1: just leave it be, let's just not talk about it,

838
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: let's let it die down.

839
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 2: Why do we got to relive this?

840
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, certainly with the cases that are that there's

841
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 3: been some type of resolution too, because not all of

842
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 3: the cases we cover, our cold cases that haven't been solved.

843
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 3: Some of them have been solved, you know, to one

844
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 3: degree of like certainty or another. And on those cases,

845
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 3: I definitely ran into this. People they don't they don't

846
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 3: want to talk about it, they don't want it to

847
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 3: be rehashed, which I do understand. I think I think that,

848
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 3: you know, this is a matter of public interest. These stories,

849
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 3: whether it's it's you know, the job of law enforcement,

850
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 3: or whether the stories have some lesson for you know, hunters,

851
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 3: I think they are a matter of public interest, and

852
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 3: so we should cover them, especially if if we're adding

853
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 3: something new to these stories. But I certainly ran into

854
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 3: that and people said, I don't want to talk to you.

855
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to rehash this. Did that you did that?

856
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 2: Sometimes come from the victims family.

857
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, there there there were times.

858
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 2: I would be more simple, I would be sympathetic to it.

859
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 2: I'm coming from the victim side.

860
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to be sympathetic to it coming

861
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:33,399
Speaker 1: from the murderer's perspective, right right, And and I think, like, yeah,

862
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: I bet you want this to go away, right right.

863
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: I understand that, of course, yeah, I do.

864
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 3: And I think it's I think it's a question of culpability,

865
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 3: right Like Paul's family didn't do what he did, and

866
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 3: so in a sense, they are victims. But you know, again,

867
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 3: this is a this is a this is a big story,

868
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 3: especially in this area. And I think that we have

869
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 3: an obligation to cover it as truthfully as we can

870
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 3: with you know, whoever will talk to us. And you know, I,

871
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 3: like you say, I feel sympathy with all of these cases,

872
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 3: and that's one thing I really wanted to be sure

873
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 3: that never got lost. I think with a lot of

874
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,240
Speaker 3: true crime, like the genre, a lot of people approach

875
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 3: it as like a puzzle to be solved. And that

876
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 3: makes sense. It's an investigation, there's evidence, there's clues. But

877
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 3: because the way we reported this, we talked with the

878
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:41,760
Speaker 3: people involved, we talked with the victims' families. I always

879
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 3: want to center the fact that they are real people involved, Right,

880
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 3: These are real humans who have gone through the worst

881
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 3: imaginable pain, and I'm asking them to talk about it, right,

882
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 3: And so I always feel sympathy and I try to

883
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 3: reflect that in the way that we tell these stories.

884
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: Know, I try to to.

885
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 3: Really get into who the victim was as a person,

886
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 3: to talk with their family and friends, like what were

887
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 3: they like, what was their character? What are they like

888
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 3: to do? Because I think that's really important and it

889
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 3: reminds the audience like this is not just like a

890
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 3: puzzle to be solved, This is a real person, and

891
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 3: I just think that's really important with this genre, especially

892
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 3: of true crime.

893
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 2: Tell me about the Terry Brisk murder. The Terry Brisk murder,

894
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 2: so cause here we're jumping up the twenty sixteen.

895
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:36,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a bit more recent. So Terry Brisk

896
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 3: was he was hunting white tail. It was the third

897
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 3: day of rifle season in Minnesota. He's from Little Falls,

898
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 3: which is in central Minnesota. It's a pretty rural community,

899
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 3: but he'd lived there his whole life. So he went

900
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 3: out on a Monday. He'd taken off that day of work.

901
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 3: He went out on a Monday to go check his stands.

902
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 3: I got the sense it wasn't like a serious hunt.

903
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 3: He had about one hundred and twenty acre property that

904
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 3: it was like family land that he hunted, and he

905
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 3: was just gonna go out check his stands, like maybe

906
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 3: he ran into it, you know, maybe he runs into

907
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 3: a deer, maybe he doesn't, but he's just gonna go

908
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:13,479
Speaker 3: out there.

909
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 2: So he's out there.

910
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 3: His son Jonathan comes home from school and immediately wants

911
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 3: to go out hunting. He knows his dad is out

912
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 3: on that property, and so he goes out there. He

913
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 3: finds a stand. I want to say it was a

914
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,359
Speaker 3: ground blind, but I can't remember that detail. But he's

915
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 3: texting his dad like, Hey, I'm out here, where are you?

916
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 3: And he can hear a cell phone like dinging, so

917
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 3: he knows like he's close, but he he doesn't like

918
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 3: he keeps hearing the dinging, so so Terry his dad

919
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 3: doesn't silence his phone, and so he's like, that's just strange.

920
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 3: And so he gets out of the blind. He walks

921
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 3: not a very long distance because he can hear the

922
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 3: cell phone, and he finds his dad. He's lying on

923
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 3: the grounds. He's been shot, and so you know, the

924
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,879
Speaker 3: investigation kind of the deputies arrive, they bring in some

925
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 3: state law enforcement as well. They investigate the crime scene,

926
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 3: and one of the weird things they notice is that

927
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 3: he's there's no gun, right, And they assume a hunter

928
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 3: is going to go out on his property during deer season,

929
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,320
Speaker 3: he's going to have a gun with him, right, because

930
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 3: like the surest way of seeing a deer right is

931
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 3: like to not have your gun with him.

932
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 2: And if you just check him, if you just even

933
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 2: if you're.

934
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 3: Just checking, yep, even if you're just checking. So they

935
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 3: so they look for the gun. They can't find it.

936
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 3: The family tells them that it was probably a thirty

937
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 3: thirty Winchester lever action that he liked to hunt hunt with.

938
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:50,280
Speaker 3: They can't find it, can't find it. About a year later,

939
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 3: they go back out because what what the the sheriff

940
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 3: who spoke with me said is, at the time they

941
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 3: were looking, there was a really thick, you know, cover

942
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 3: of leaves on the ground, hm, and so they were

943
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 3: concerned maybe it was hidden somewhere. And so sure enough,

944
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 3: the next spring, when that leaf cover has decomposed a bit,

945
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 3: they go out again and they find the gun. And

946
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 3: that's when they confirm that the gun that killed him

947
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 3: was his own gun. But they also know, based on

948
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 3: you know, the crime scene, that it wasn't a suicide.

949
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 3: They're confident that he was killed with his own gun

950
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 3: by someone else at close range. So the sheriff says,

951
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 3: it's likely that this person spoke with Terry. Certainly they

952
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 3: interacted in some way, and somehow this person got Terry's

953
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:48,879
Speaker 3: gun and shot him, and they they haven't been able

954
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 3: to figure out who did it, or at least they

955
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 3: haven't been able to gather enough evidence to figure out

956
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 3: who did it. And that's kind of where the case

957
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 3: has been.

958
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: How old was the kid.

959
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,359
Speaker 3: He was? I think he was fifteen at the time. Yeah,

960
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen. So Terry was married and had four kids,

961
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:09,240
Speaker 3: and Jonathan was the oldest.

962
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 2: How far away was the gun.

963
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 3: That's undisclosed? I asked the sheriff. He doesn't want to

964
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 3: say where it was found. He said, I think the

965
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,439
Speaker 3: words he used were nowhere near the crime scene. Wow,

966
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 3: So yeah, nowhere near the crime scene. One of the

967
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 3: things that was mentioned potentially is that it was on

968
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 3: a different property. But the way it was described to me,

969
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 3: it's not like it was in someone's shed, right and

970
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 3: they found it there.

971
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 2: It was in the woods somewhere. Thing doesn't make a

972
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 2: ton of sense. If it's far away, what do.

973
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 1: You mean if it's way far away, they're gonna wait

974
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: for the leaves to settle down from rain and decomposition

975
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:55,280
Speaker 1: and then go look way far away.

976
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know exactly how they conducted the search.

977
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 3: I assume some kind of grid search, and there's a

978
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:04,760
Speaker 3: lot of like, there's a lot of room in nowhere

979
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,439
Speaker 3: near right. It wasn't next to the body. It could

980
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 3: have been twenty five yards away. It could have been.

981
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 1: It's only one hundred and twenty acres on and twenty acres,

982
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: so you could have been five hundred yards away and

983
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:15,439
Speaker 1: not in the yep.

984
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that is one of the things that's so

985
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:18,720
Speaker 3: tough about, like off property.

986
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

987
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:19,919
Speaker 2: Yeah.

988
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 3: A lot of these cases, like the investigators don't know

989
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 3: when to stop right in their search for clues for

990
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 3: evidence because they don't know how big the crime scene is.

991
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 3: And so that was a challenging part of this.

992
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, they apparently never disclosed where he was shot.

993
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 3: Like which part of his body. No, they never have.

994
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: I asked that too, Yeah, and like that's like, can

995
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 1: you can you explain why they withhold those little details

996
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 1: because we talk about that, Yeah, like you talk about

997
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: that in the original in the original Blood Trails with

998
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 1: the turkey hunter that's found dead out in the woods.

999
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 2: Yep.

1000
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 1: Is they view it like they it's a tool, Yeah,

1001
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 1: to no detail that no one else knows, well someone.

1002
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 3: Else knows right exactly, and and that's how they use it.

1003
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 3: So when when I talked with Brent, the example he

1004
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 3: gave was if if we say we know what the

1005
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 3: murder weapon was, the murderer will then go throw that

1006
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 3: gun in the river, right. So that's one example of something.

1007
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 2: I think. I think.

1008
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 3: There is definitely validity in wanting to keep information close

1009
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:35,959
Speaker 3: to the vest because they can use it, whether that's

1010
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 3: in an interrogation, right, They they can better figure out

1011
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:44,799
Speaker 3: if someone's lying or telling the truth if they, you know,

1012
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 3: haven't released a lot of details. Right, So if they

1013
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 3: know if if this person they're interviewing somehow mentions or

1014
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 3: let slip a detail that they haven't released to the public, Well,

1015
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 3: that's a big deal, right, And so they.

1016
00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 1: The thing that only you know, and they interviewing some

1017
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: guy and he knows, and he just happens to throw out, yeah,

1018
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 1: some weird remark.

1019
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,839
Speaker 2: And you're like, he wouldn't know that exactly. He never

1020
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 2: told me, boy that right, right exactly.

1021
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 3: So So those, especially with the crime scene, those details

1022
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 3: are often not disclosed, and I totally get it. Sometimes

1023
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 3: I wonder whether whether investigators are being a little too cautious.

1024
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 3: And that's just from my perspective as someone who's just

1025
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 3: trying to get as much information as possible. So, you know,

1026
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 3: it's frustrating for me, it's frustrating for family, can be

1027
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 3: frustrating for the public. But they do have reasons for it?

1028
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me about the Ludger h Bellinger.

1029
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a Luger Blander, Lugr Bland, Ludia Blanger. I

1030
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 3: got that wrong as well until someone corrected me. So

1031
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 3: this is another disappearance, but it's it's.

1032
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:55,240
Speaker 1: Also nineteen seventy like kind of like a right around

1033
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 1: when I was born. Things were, things were spicy in

1034
00:56:58,320 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: the words man.

1035
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, so this is nineteen seventy five.

1036
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 3: So the fiftieth anniversary of this is actually coming up

1037
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 3: here pretty soon. So this is also a disappearance, but

1038
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 3: it's a lot different than the Bob Christian disappearance because

1039
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 3: we have a lot more information about who did it.

1040
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 3: It's just we don't they were never convicted and we

1041
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 3: don't know what they did with Lujer.

1042
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 2: So he was a hundred. This is the Big Woods

1043
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 2: Man Maine exactly.

1044
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, in Maine, the Big Woods Washington, Maine, which is

1045
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 3: in the eastern portion of the state, not too far

1046
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 3: from the coast. Luja went hunting with his wife Linda

1047
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:41,959
Speaker 3: and his brother John. They went out kind of before work.

1048
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 3: Linda and John both had to work later in the day.

1049
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 3: Luja was kind of between jobs. I think, But they

1050
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 3: went out early in the morning to see if they

1051
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 3: could find any deer tracks and just to sit and

1052
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 3: wait and you know, see if anything showed up. They

1053
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 3: didn't find anything, so so Linda and John went back

1054
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 3: because they had to go to work. Lujar said, I'll,

1055
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 3: you know, I want to hunt for a little while

1056
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 3: longer and then I'll come back home. At the time,

1057
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 3: Lujer well still but Luji and Linda had three young

1058
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 3: daughters at the time, so they had three kids. They

1059
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 3: were fairly newly married but and fairly young. But but

1060
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 3: they had three kids.

1061
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 5: Uh.

1062
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 3: So Lujer again doesn't come home, and he's supposed to

1063
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 3: drive Linda to work, and so the way she describes

1064
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 3: it is she was kind of mad at him.

1065
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 2: At first.

1066
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 3: She assumes he's just like out hunting and forgot right.

1067
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 3: But you know, as the hours stick by and he

1068
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 3: still hasn't come home, she starts to become really concerned.

1069
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 3: So she calls the main game wardens and they come

1070
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 3: out to two game wardens come out and start to

1071
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 3: look for him. They searched all night, no sign of him,

1072
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 3: and they consider calling like a larger search party, but

1073
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 3: it was pretty cold and they figured that would take

1074
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 3: too long. They really wanted to find him then, because

1075
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 3: he'd been out all night at that point, so so

1076
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 3: they finally they talked to a neighbor who says he

1077
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 3: saw Ludra go into the woods at this point. And

1078
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 3: the neighbor is a big hunter and a trapper, and

1079
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 3: so the neighbor says, if Lujra went in that way,

1080
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 3: I bet he went to this spot in the woods

1081
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 3: where they're often deer. And so sure enough, they go

1082
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 3: to that spot, they find his tracks. They figure out

1083
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 3: that he'd shot a buck and he dragged it out

1084
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 3: to a road. One of the really cool things about

1085
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 3: this story is it's a really great example of good

1086
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 3: police work, of good detective work. The game wardens were

1087
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 3: able to really read the signs in the snow because

1088
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 3: it had it had snowed and then gotten warm and

1089
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 3: it kind of melted and then it froze again, and

1090
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 3: then like a cold snow had come on top of that.

1091
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 3: So they were able to kind of figure out a

1092
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 3: timeline based on like is the track in yeah, is

1093
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 3: the track in the slushy like frozen stuff, or is

1094
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 3: it you know, in the top, And so they do

1095
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 3: a great job tracking Lujra to this road. They figure

1096
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 3: out that a car had driven up and picked Lujra

1097
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 3: up and they put the deer in the trunk. And

1098
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 3: one of the things they notice is that Lujra had

1099
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 3: left his gun leaning against a tree, and they figure

1100
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 3: out that one of the other guys in the car

1101
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 3: was the one who got out of the car and

1102
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 3: went over and picked up Luger's gun and brought it

1103
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 3: back to the car. And they just think that's kind

1104
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 3: of strange, like wouldn't Lujr. Be the one to get

1105
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:39,160
Speaker 3: out and go get his gun, And so that sort

1106
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 3: of tips them off. They also another great piece of

1107
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 3: detective work. They find a receipt in the snow for

1108
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 3: a local garage like a like an autobody shop, and

1109
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 3: it has like the names of the guys who are

1110
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 3: driving the car, and so they immediately go to the

1111
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 3: autobody shop and they talk to that Apparently, you know,

1112
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 3: two guys had come in potentially drunk, potentially you know,

1113
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 3: on drugs, just like acting crazy. They'd asked for their

1114
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 3: car to be fixed something was wrong with the radiator,

1115
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 3: and then they left and between them leaving, they leave

1116
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 3: the autobody shop pick up Luger, something happens, and then

1117
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 3: they go back to the autobody shop later. So that's

1118
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 3: another piece where they're able to kind of figure out

1119
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 3: a timeline. And so they they go to talk to

1120
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 3: these guys and they've never been named. The suspects have

1121
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 3: never been named. I refer to them as Suspect A

1122
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 3: and Suspect B because again, like they've never been officially

1123
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 3: named as suspects, and I actually don't know. Because so

1124
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 3: another part of this story, the the game warns who

1125
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 3: investigated this have both passed. They both died, but an author,

1126
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 3: a journalist named Darren Worcester, published a book based on

1127
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 3: the accounts of a bunch of different main game wardens.

1128
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 3: His father in law was a game warden, and so

1129
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 3: you know, he compiled all of these stories from these

1130
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 3: game boardens he'd spoken to, one of which was Lusier's disappearance,

1131
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 3: was Ludri's story, And so that's really how we know

1132
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:28,480
Speaker 3: a lot of these details is because he spoke with

1133
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,320
Speaker 3: those wardens before they died. And so I was able

1134
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 3: to interview Darren, who again very kindly sat down and

1135
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 3: talked with me for a long time about this case.

1136
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:39,520
Speaker 3: And so that's how we know a lot of the

1137
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 3: details because they were never released to the public. I contacted,

1138
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 3: you know, the main state police who are right now

1139
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 3: like in charge of the investigation, and they declined to

1140
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 3: be interviewed.

1141
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 1: What are these two guys, Like, what do these two

1142
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 1: guys say for themselves?

1143
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 3: Well, one of them, one of them died in a

1144
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 3: kind of crazy circumstance. The other one is still alive,

1145
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 3: and according to Linda, who I spoke with, you know,

1146
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:10,400
Speaker 3: maintains his innocence.

1147
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 2: But what do they say, where do they say Lujer

1148
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 2: in the buck got out of the car.

1149
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 3: They I don't know that they ever really got that

1150
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 3: far in the investigation. What I mean is they never

1151
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 3: accused them and like tried to prosecute them, so they

1152
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 3: never actually like got them in a court and said,

1153
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 3: you know, what's going on? So they they like they said,

1154
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 3: they saw Lujer, but we didn't pick him up, right,

1155
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 3: someone else must have picked him up. And that's kind

1156
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 3: of the story that that they maintain, even though it's

1157
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 3: very you.

1158
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 1: Know, there were receipts in the snow, well their receipt

1159
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 1: is so they were there, right, they say, oh, yeah,

1160
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: we were there, we.

1161
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 3: Saw him, but we didn't pick him up, We didn't

1162
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 3: do anything to him. We don't know what happened to him.

1163
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 3: And that's sort of the story that they've maintained over

1164
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 3: these years. The first, the one suspect. They're both.

1165
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 2: Characters, you might say, but the.

1166
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 3: One died because he blew up his own house in

1167
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 3: an apparent attempt either at insurance fraud or to kill

1168
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 3: his wife.

1169
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 2: He filled his house.

1170
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 3: With you know whatever gas was being used in the

1171
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 3: house and set some kind of I forget I talk

1172
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 3: about in the episode. It was some kind of timing device,

1173
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 3: right that was going to go off and then like

1174
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 3: blow up his house, and it went off too soon

1175
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 3: while he was still there, and they were hoping he

1176
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 3: would give them a deathbed confession. Because he didn't die immediately.

1177
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 3: He was flown to a hospital, but he never he

1178
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 3: never said anything.

1179
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 1: You ever seen the movie in the Bedroom, it's a

1180
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 1: lobster trap reference.

1181
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 2: There's a.

1182
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:05,919
Speaker 1: There's a murder and they know who did it, Yeah,

1183
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 1: but they never face justice until they do.

1184
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1185
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 1: It like a little bit surprises me, not surprises me,

1186
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 1: but you can imagine the family at a point being

1187
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 1: like we're just gonna have to.

1188
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 2: Figure this, like we're gonna have to do what needs

1189
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 2: to happen.

1190
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 3: And I can see that temptation for sure. I think

1191
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 3: talking with Linda and Tracy, the youngest daughter, they feel

1192
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:44,680
Speaker 3: like knowing what happened won't change what happened. They really

1193
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 3: just want to give Lujrah a proper burial. They want

1194
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 3: to put him to rest in a respectful way that

1195
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:56,520
Speaker 3: he deserves. And that's really all that they're motivated to

1196
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 3: do at this point. Because Linda has been she has

1197
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 3: been pushing, you know, for years. She was part of

1198
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:10,000
Speaker 3: a group that actually helped to push the state legislature

1199
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,680
Speaker 3: to open like a cold case unit in the state

1200
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:18,080
Speaker 3: police because they didn't have that before. She you know,

1201
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 3: runs a Facebook page where she you know, advocates for

1202
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 3: both her case but also other people's cases. She posts

1203
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:32,919
Speaker 3: about other disappearances, other unsolved murders, and so she's just been,

1204
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 3: you know, trying for years to to bring some measure

1205
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:40,919
Speaker 3: of closure to her and her family. And I think

1206
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 3: she's not I don't want to speak for her, but

1207
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 3: but I think that's her her primary motivation now, as

1208
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 3: opposed to, like, you know what I imagine right after

1209
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:55,640
Speaker 3: it happened. In the years after it happened, which was

1210
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:59,160
Speaker 3: to bring the guys who did it to justice. Now

1211
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 3: it's really just we want to find him. We want

1212
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 3: to figure out what happened.

1213
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 1: Let's let's jump ahead to a twenty eighteen homicide, uh

1214
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:19,439
Speaker 1: against Chong Mua Yang, a Mung guy. We've had Monk,

1215
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 1: We've had Mung guys from We've had Mung guys by

1216
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 1: the last.

1217
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 2: Name of Yang.

1218
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 1: Our friend Ya Yang comes on the show now and

1219
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 1: then it's a clan name.

1220
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:37,479
Speaker 2: Your last name is a clan name. Okay. The mung

1221
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 2: as we as we've covered in past podcast episodes.

1222
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 1: Uh, there are there's a there's a large mung pot,

1223
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 1: not large, there's a there's a significance of substantial mung

1224
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 1: population in the United States of America.

1225
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 2: The Mung.

1226
01:07:54,800 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 1: Listeners, I'm sure you're you've heard of the Vietnam War. Well, Uh,

1227
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:04,200
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War was not confined to Vietnam obviously, and

1228
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:08,440
Speaker 1: the US ran a lot of covert operations both in

1229
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 1: Cambodian laos. You'll hear mentions of like the Ho Chiman Trail,

1230
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 1: for instance, and the Ho Chiman Trail was not like

1231
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 1: a specific trail that you have to imagine it like

1232
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:23,759
Speaker 1: a constantly changing route. And so in trying to attack

1233
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:26,599
Speaker 1: supply lines from the north, we would sometimes stray over

1234
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 1: into Cambodia or Laos.

1235
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:29,920
Speaker 2: And also.

1236
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 1: Our enemy in the war, like they had bases and

1237
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:39,280
Speaker 1: infrastructure and operations happening outside of Vietnam. So we ran

1238
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 1: what we now know as like the secret wars. We

1239
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:47,759
Speaker 1: ran these like covert operations which involved US military personnel.

1240
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 2: The way.

1241
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:56,680
Speaker 1: You know, if you think back to like the way

1242
01:08:56,760 --> 01:09:00,719
Speaker 1: green brays function, the way some CIA paramility areas function

1243
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 1: is they used indigenous forces right like they're regarded as

1244
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 1: force multipliers. So when we were fighting the communists in

1245
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 1: Vietnam and fighting the Communists in Laos, we were allied

1246
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:22,799
Speaker 1: with a tribe, the Mung, who were a somewhat stateless people.

1247
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:26,480
Speaker 1: They were a mountain tribe. They were a somewhat stateless

1248
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 1: people and they hated the Communists. So we are CIA

1249
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:38,320
Speaker 1: paramilitary Special operation guys allied with the Mum. When we

1250
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:43,479
Speaker 1: pulled out of Vietnam, it was very similar to picture

1251
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:48,599
Speaker 1: when we pulled out of Afghanistan. How many we took

1252
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 1: some of our collaborators with us, but translators, collaborators were

1253
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 1: abandoned in Afghanistan to be hunted down and killed by

1254
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 1: the Taliban, arrested by the Taliban.

1255
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:03,040
Speaker 2: So when we pulled.

1256
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 1: Out of Vietnam, we brought a lot Among. We brought

1257
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:10,680
Speaker 1: a lot Among with us. We brought him into Missoula, Montana.

1258
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:15,559
Speaker 1: We brought him into Minnesota, and then over the years,

1259
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:18,479
Speaker 1: other Monk would slowly make their way out of Laos

1260
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:23,120
Speaker 1: cross into Thailand. In Thailand they could go into refugee

1261
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 1: camps and then also could wind up emigrating to the

1262
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:31,599
Speaker 1: US as asylum seekers because they were stateless. They had

1263
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:36,520
Speaker 1: assisted the Americans, and the Communists were still hunting for them.

1264
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:43,840
Speaker 1: The Mong, being a mountain people, are historic hunters right

1265
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:51,240
Speaker 1: in the places where the Munks settled that they took

1266
01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:55,760
Speaker 1: up hunting in America and they This is just me

1267
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 1: editorializing here, like I'm doing a crash course in a

1268
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 1: little bit of history to understand this case a little bit.

1269
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 1: The Mong developed a reputation, developed a reputation as these

1270
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:11,000
Speaker 1: as violators and poachers.

1271
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:15,000
Speaker 2: Okay, Now, when we had Ya yang On, who's.

1272
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:20,560
Speaker 1: Who whose family came from Laos And yeah, I was

1273
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 1: actually born overseas, but we had Ya yang On and

1274
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:27,280
Speaker 1: he he expressed, like we talked about this reputation the

1275
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 1: monk had and yeah, didn't apologize for it, and he's

1276
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:37,000
Speaker 1: a very law abiding individual obviously, but he was kind

1277
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:42,080
Speaker 1: of trying to speak to that the people's experience here.

1278
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:47,759
Speaker 1: You have a here, you have a stateless people where

1279
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 1: the government of your here you are in Laos, the

1280
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:57,839
Speaker 1: government is hunting for you. Like you're living a secret

1281
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:03,880
Speaker 1: existence up in the mountains. You're not represented by the

1282
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:09,920
Speaker 1: government at all. Your whole life is like clandestine, right,

1283
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:12,120
Speaker 1: And all of a sudden you get brought to the

1284
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:16,519
Speaker 1: US and that's your background, right, and you come to

1285
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:18,599
Speaker 1: the US and it's kind of like, oh no, no, helmet,

1286
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:25,000
Speaker 1: You're not supposed to hunt squirrels till September fifteenth and

1287
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 1: you're allowed five.

1288
01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 2: Right.

1289
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:29,040
Speaker 1: He was like, there was just the sort of like

1290
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 1: you're going from no government or your government's hunting you,

1291
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:39,880
Speaker 1: you know, to like this completely different system. And so

1292
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:42,040
Speaker 1: he said there was a period when it was just

1293
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:44,920
Speaker 1: like it was kind of incomprehensible.

1294
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, like they.

1295
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:49,840
Speaker 1: Knew to hunt, they wanted to hunt. They fed themselves

1296
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:52,559
Speaker 1: on fish, they fed themselves on game, and it was

1297
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:55,240
Speaker 1: just hard to understand.

1298
01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:56,360
Speaker 2: I mean it's hard.

1299
01:12:56,400 --> 01:12:59,679
Speaker 3: It's hard for American Yeah, it's hard for American unders

1300
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:00,960
Speaker 3: to now a gate sometimes.

1301
01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:02,599
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so they.

1302
01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:09,280
Speaker 1: Develop this reputation, and of course you have the obvious

1303
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:10,320
Speaker 1: just racial tension.

1304
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:12,400
Speaker 2: They're racial tension. We see it.

1305
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:16,800
Speaker 1: There's other cases where we took guys, so like South

1306
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 1: Vietnamese who were fighting with us against the North. A

1307
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:23,719
Speaker 1: lot of South Vietnamese wound up getting involved in shrimping

1308
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 1: in Louisiana, and there's huge tension between traditional Cajun shrimpers

1309
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:33,760
Speaker 1: and these South Vietnamese dudes who are getting set up

1310
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:37,680
Speaker 1: by churches to compete with them. It's like tension, and

1311
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:39,560
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you're in Minnesota and all of

1312
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:41,240
Speaker 1: a sudden, there's all these guys and they don't look

1313
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:44,040
Speaker 1: like you, and they're from another country, they have different

1314
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:48,519
Speaker 1: cultural practices, and there they are on the landscape and

1315
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:51,600
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, they're taking all the game. They're the

1316
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 1: reasons I'm not seeing anything. And you have a history

1317
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:59,599
Speaker 1: of then you have a history of just suspicion.

1318
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:02,600
Speaker 3: Easy scapegoat for your own unsuccess.

1319
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 2: Mung dudes. Mung dudes are like, these guys don't like us. Right.

1320
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:11,840
Speaker 1: In some ways, we like fought for this, We fought

1321
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:14,280
Speaker 1: for America, but we're not like but a lot of

1322
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 1: people were not welcome. We like sacrificed our families and

1323
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:23,800
Speaker 1: lives fighting your enemies. But now we're your enemy. Other

1324
01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:26,719
Speaker 1: guys are like all all these new dudes, these Asian

1325
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:29,479
Speaker 1: dudes are shooting our squirrels or catching our fish or

1326
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:34,680
Speaker 1: snagging our salmon whatever. Right, and it creates like this atmosphere,

1327
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:38,000
Speaker 1: Like I love to think that this is fading now,

1328
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:41,080
Speaker 1: but this was a real thing, and and and and

1329
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 1: and I had heard about it. Yeah, thank god, I

1330
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 1: wanted becoming friends with with like becoming friends with a

1331
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:51,679
Speaker 1: Mung family and getting a better sense of the whole picture,

1332
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:52,880
Speaker 1: right right.

1333
01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's and that's the background for this homicide

1334
01:14:56,840 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 3: of a of a Mung hunter and one of the

1335
01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 3: one of the tricky parts I think, so so with

1336
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:11,240
Speaker 3: this story. I have read the case file from the

1337
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:15,400
Speaker 3: bath Township Police. They were the detective there was kind

1338
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 3: of the primary investigator on this case. Just to kind

1339
01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 3: of preface the rest of this, I haven't spoken with

1340
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:33,120
Speaker 3: the family yet, and I will before we before we

1341
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:37,000
Speaker 3: you know, put out this episode. But currently the status

1342
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:41,200
Speaker 3: of the case is somewhat open. There there's an appeals

1343
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:45,760
Speaker 3: process that's going on, and so my information comes from

1344
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:48,760
Speaker 3: the case file, and I imagine some of this will

1345
01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 3: be fleshed out a bit after I talk to people,

1346
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:54,760
Speaker 3: so just to preface it with that, But reading the

1347
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:58,240
Speaker 3: case file, it seemed like it was challenging to investigate

1348
01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:04,560
Speaker 3: because there were so many instances of like racial comments

1349
01:16:05,240 --> 01:16:10,080
Speaker 3: being made in this particular like, you know, state is

1350
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:15,479
Speaker 3: a state park. Hunters in this state park who who

1351
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:18,640
Speaker 3: you know, made racist comments right against the munk, and

1352
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:22,680
Speaker 3: so it was like almost too many options right when

1353
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:25,240
Speaker 3: investigators started this because they'd hear oh so and so

1354
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:28,720
Speaker 3: said such and such about this mung hunter, Oh so

1355
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:32,720
Speaker 3: and so sent a text to their buddy saying this

1356
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:33,439
Speaker 3: racist thing.

1357
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:35,560
Speaker 2: Because then there was the dudes there. There were a

1358
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:36,720
Speaker 2: lot of examples of this.

1359
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:39,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, just I just want to just interject the thing

1360
01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:43,840
Speaker 1: like kind of like how this stuff works. Yanni and

1361
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:49,880
Speaker 1: I were down in Missouri hunting in Missouri, and just

1362
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:52,360
Speaker 1: in our wandering around and hanging out at boat launches

1363
01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:55,160
Speaker 1: and stuff, we're just shooting the breeze at all these

1364
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:56,040
Speaker 1: guys all the time.

1365
01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:58,759
Speaker 2: These guys are explaining to us, like flat out telling

1366
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:03,439
Speaker 2: us there's no squirrels. There'll be news to people who

1367
01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:05,679
Speaker 2: live this will be news to Missouri squirrel hunters.

1368
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:07,639
Speaker 1: It was funny because we did some squirrel hunting on

1369
01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:11,680
Speaker 1: this trip and did fantastic there's no squirrels.

1370
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:18,439
Speaker 2: Because the Mung come down from Minneapolis and do big

1371
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:24,960
Speaker 2: squirrel drives, squirrel drive and yeah, you're like.

1372
01:17:25,040 --> 01:17:30,679
Speaker 1: Mom, some some guys, enough guys, enough Mung guys came

1373
01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:34,639
Speaker 1: down from Minnesota and conducted a squirrel drive in Missouri,

1374
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:39,200
Speaker 1: in Missouri, the likes of which has eliminated squirrels in Missouri.

1375
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:43,600
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, uh huh right, okay, yeah if you

1376
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:44,040
Speaker 1: say so.

1377
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:46,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe everything everybody tells me.

1378
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 1: So okay, right, I mean just lunacy, yeah, but straight

1379
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:53,639
Speaker 1: faced right, We're.

1380
01:17:53,400 --> 01:17:57,000
Speaker 2: Like, can you explain a squirrel drive to me? Yeah?

1381
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:59,480
Speaker 3: How does that work? I'd love to know, honestly.

1382
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:01,760
Speaker 2: Because they kind of go into the trees and go

1383
01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:02,240
Speaker 2: into hole.

1384
01:18:03,160 --> 01:18:08,200
Speaker 1: You don't push him out ahead of you, like, they

1385
01:18:08,240 --> 01:18:11,400
Speaker 1: don't drive, They don't put squirrels don't push.

1386
01:18:11,479 --> 01:18:13,639
Speaker 3: No, no, they don't, they don't.

1387
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:17,200
Speaker 2: You don't bump squirrels. You don't moot squirrels.

1388
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, straight faced dude, right, straight faced, like

1389
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 1: a real problem.

1390
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:31,000
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah right yeah, And that just adds a whole

1391
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:33,680
Speaker 3: wrinkle to this, to this case, to this investigation, right

1392
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:36,160
Speaker 3: because you layer that on top of just yeah, because like.

1393
01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:38,120
Speaker 1: Oh, he must be the guy because he's saying all

1394
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:39,200
Speaker 1: this bad stuff about muggs.

1395
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:41,000
Speaker 2: Like no, everybody's bitching about the mung guy.

1396
01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:43,920
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, everyone is. And also just because you say

1397
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:47,040
Speaker 3: this doesn't mean you're gonna go shoot some guy. So

1398
01:18:47,040 --> 01:18:51,040
Speaker 3: so what happens is it happened in twenty eighteen the

1399
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:56,479
Speaker 3: Rose Lake State Park in Bathtownship, Michigan. It's similar to

1400
01:18:56,520 --> 01:19:01,280
Speaker 3: the somewhat similar to the Terry Brisk case, where he

1401
01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:05,400
Speaker 3: goes out hunting by himself. He's pretty familiar with this area,

1402
01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:08,120
Speaker 3: He's hunted it quite a bit, and he doesn't come home.

1403
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:09,000
Speaker 2: It's after dark.

1404
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:14,519
Speaker 3: The family launches a search party and he's found he's

1405
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:20,880
Speaker 3: been shot in the head once and from there, the investigation,

1406
01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:25,679
Speaker 3: you know, moves forward, and again it's extremely difficult. There's

1407
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:29,880
Speaker 3: limited evidence. There's some footprints around the body that are

1408
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 3: that investigators have a tough time matching to, you know,

1409
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:37,880
Speaker 3: anyone specific person to kind of skip ahead a bit.

1410
01:19:38,400 --> 01:19:42,240
Speaker 3: The way that they eventually name some suspects is basically

1411
01:19:42,360 --> 01:19:47,000
Speaker 3: through they they get pings from their cell phones that

1412
01:19:47,040 --> 01:19:49,840
Speaker 3: they were in this area. They put in a request

1413
01:19:50,040 --> 01:19:52,800
Speaker 3: basically to Verizon or eighteen t or whoever, like, give

1414
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:54,559
Speaker 3: me all the cell phones of anyone who's in this

1415
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:57,000
Speaker 3: area on this day at this time, and these two

1416
01:19:57,000 --> 01:20:01,760
Speaker 3: guys pop up. Another thing that happens is is a witness.

1417
01:20:02,160 --> 01:20:09,760
Speaker 3: So soh Yang is killed and all his stuff has

1418
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:11,960
Speaker 3: been stolen, like he doesn't his backpack is gone. He

1419
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:16,040
Speaker 3: had a shotgun that was gone. And so a witness

1420
01:20:16,120 --> 01:20:19,200
Speaker 3: sees two guys walking down the road and one of

1421
01:20:19,240 --> 01:20:23,160
Speaker 3: them is holding two long guns. They're obviously hunters, but

1422
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:25,439
Speaker 3: one of them is holding two long guns, which is

1423
01:20:25,479 --> 01:20:31,680
Speaker 3: obviously strange. And so eventually they're able to, uh, you know,

1424
01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:35,759
Speaker 3: they identify these guys. The one guy's name is Thomas Olsen.

1425
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:40,479
Speaker 3: The other guy's name is Robert Roadway. They identify them,

1426
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:45,680
Speaker 3: you know, they they interrogate them. They do find a

1427
01:20:47,040 --> 01:20:50,559
Speaker 3: can of like scent spray. I think it was like

1428
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:54,040
Speaker 3: to you put on your boots to like, you know,

1429
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:54,880
Speaker 3: remove your scent.

1430
01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:56,160
Speaker 2: So this guy's a deer hunting.

1431
01:20:56,240 --> 01:20:58,439
Speaker 3: They're deer hunting. Yeah, they're deer hunting, and believe it

1432
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:00,639
Speaker 3: or not, they say it's like one of their first

1433
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:05,080
Speaker 3: times deer hunting. They're not like experienced hunters, these guys.

1434
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:09,480
Speaker 3: So they find this can of scent spray with Olsen's

1435
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:14,960
Speaker 3: DNA on it in the vicinity of the body, and

1436
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:18,120
Speaker 3: so they feel like they have enough to charge both

1437
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:23,120
Speaker 3: of these guys with murder. A thing about this case

1438
01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:25,320
Speaker 3: that I haven't figured out yet, and this is I

1439
01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:29,000
Speaker 3: want to talk with people and figure this out, is

1440
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:34,640
Speaker 3: Robert Roadway's charges were dropped. They charged both of them initially,

1441
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:40,679
Speaker 3: but his charges were dropped, and according to the Attorney

1442
01:21:40,720 --> 01:21:43,960
Speaker 3: General from Michigan, they say they were dropped due to

1443
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:48,960
Speaker 3: an unresolved issue regarding admissibility of evidence. And so I

1444
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:53,160
Speaker 3: don't know what that like, what specifically that's referring to.

1445
01:21:53,280 --> 01:21:55,599
Speaker 3: I don't know if the an investigator messed it up.

1446
01:21:55,920 --> 01:21:59,120
Speaker 3: I don't know if they just decided, like because only

1447
01:21:59,160 --> 01:22:03,240
Speaker 3: one of them, presume pulled the trigger, yeah right, and

1448
01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:05,120
Speaker 3: so I don't know if they just figured we think

1449
01:22:05,160 --> 01:22:07,479
Speaker 3: it's Olsen not Roadway. I don't know.

1450
01:22:07,640 --> 01:22:10,120
Speaker 2: Well, the other one would be least obstruction of justice,

1451
01:22:10,479 --> 01:22:12,759
Speaker 2: right right, and they were very.

1452
01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:19,559
Speaker 3: You know, they sat down for interviews and to be clear,

1453
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:23,879
Speaker 3: you know, just so everyone knows. Olsen maintains his innocence

1454
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:26,839
Speaker 3: to this day. His family says he was wrongfully convicted.

1455
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:30,280
Speaker 3: He says he didn't do it, and they say that

1456
01:22:30,360 --> 01:22:33,559
Speaker 3: evidence was not substantial enough to convict him. But he

1457
01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:36,639
Speaker 3: was convicted in twenty twenty four. Last year, a jury

1458
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:39,599
Speaker 3: convicted him of I believe it was second degree murder.

1459
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:42,280
Speaker 3: He got sentenced to twenty to sixty years in prison.

1460
01:22:43,120 --> 01:22:46,920
Speaker 3: But he's appealing right now as we're recording this. He

1461
01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:50,600
Speaker 3: has asked for a retrial, which is kind of the

1462
01:22:50,600 --> 01:22:52,799
Speaker 3: first step. A lot of times in the appeal process,

1463
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:55,040
Speaker 3: you ask for a retrial, you say, you know, my

1464
01:22:55,800 --> 01:22:58,559
Speaker 3: representation wasn't sufficient, they didn't do a good job. I

1465
01:22:58,600 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 3: want a new trial, and then I presume they'll go

1466
01:23:01,160 --> 01:23:04,240
Speaker 3: through the appellate process. So that's where this case is now.

1467
01:23:04,280 --> 01:23:06,400
Speaker 3: So this is really an ongoing situation.

1468
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:13,559
Speaker 1: The text message exchange is right our bizarre where there's

1469
01:23:13,600 --> 01:23:18,559
Speaker 1: a different guy who has a text message, a different

1470
01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:22,920
Speaker 1: person of interest in the investigation that had texted someone

1471
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:24,080
Speaker 1: about how he was going.

1472
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:27,960
Speaker 2: To kill yeah Yang different guy.

1473
01:23:28,120 --> 01:23:31,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, uh, I was just kidding, he says, he

1474
01:23:31,280 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 1: was kidding, and I have an alibi. I was just

1475
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:35,519
Speaker 1: like making a joke about how someone should kill the

1476
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:35,960
Speaker 1: mong guy.

1477
01:23:36,479 --> 01:23:39,519
Speaker 3: And he did have an alibi, according to the case record.

1478
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:42,040
Speaker 3: Because there were a few guys, there was one in

1479
01:23:42,080 --> 01:23:45,200
Speaker 3: particular that they were really looking into for several years, right,

1480
01:23:45,200 --> 01:23:48,080
Speaker 3: because remember this happened in twenty eighteen, so there was

1481
01:23:48,280 --> 01:23:50,720
Speaker 3: this has gone on for the last six years. There

1482
01:23:50,800 --> 01:23:53,240
Speaker 3: was one guy they were looking into pretty closely. They

1483
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:57,080
Speaker 3: eventually ruled him out because they confirmed he wasn't in

1484
01:23:57,120 --> 01:24:01,680
Speaker 3: the area when this happened. And so you're right, these

1485
01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:04,280
Speaker 3: text messages were one of the most damning pieces of

1486
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:07,599
Speaker 3: evidence because you know, Rodway and Olsen are texting back

1487
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:11,160
Speaker 3: and forth about this case, joking, joking about it, you know,

1488
01:24:11,920 --> 01:24:13,840
Speaker 3: making racist comments.

1489
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:16,600
Speaker 1: They they go back there and hunt, and they go

1490
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:18,800
Speaker 1: back there and hunt. Years two years later they do,

1491
01:24:19,200 --> 01:24:21,800
Speaker 1: and there's a photo of them and one of the

1492
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:24,240
Speaker 1: one of the guys text with the photo text the

1493
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:27,640
Speaker 1: other one a couple of cold blooded killers revisiting the

1494
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:28,439
Speaker 1: crime scene.

1495
01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:31,360
Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, then there's a lot like that.

1496
01:24:31,680 --> 01:24:35,320
Speaker 3: There's a lot of very yeah, very damn.

1497
01:24:35,360 --> 01:24:38,639
Speaker 2: It just funny, right, they like they think it's funny.

1498
01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:39,559
Speaker 3: They think it's funny.

1499
01:24:39,720 --> 01:24:42,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that they they had texted each other in

1500
01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:44,720
Speaker 1: a Meat Eater article.

1501
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:49,280
Speaker 3: They did, yep. Yeah, one of them sent Pat Dirkin

1502
01:24:49,920 --> 01:24:56,080
Speaker 3: uh covered a story about among guy who killed I

1503
01:24:56,120 --> 01:24:59,519
Speaker 3: think it was six hunters. It was a pretty famous case.

1504
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:05,240
Speaker 1: Want just on this There was among guy who trespassed

1505
01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:10,120
Speaker 1: mm hm and was hunting in someone else's stand. Yeah,

1506
01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:15,400
Speaker 1: these guys confront them him, there's a shootout, and the

1507
01:25:15,479 --> 01:25:21,800
Speaker 1: mung guy who's probably trained, I mean he's probably a veteran. Yeah,

1508
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:23,680
Speaker 1: they get into a shootout and the mung guy man

1509
01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:28,439
Speaker 1: somehow kills like five or six guys in a shootout.

1510
01:25:28,680 --> 01:25:31,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, some of them as they were running away.

1511
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:35,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, now that I mean that Listen, I had my

1512
01:25:35,160 --> 01:25:40,920
Speaker 1: whole preamble, right, it was unfair of me to not

1513
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:43,599
Speaker 1: point out the way that that in like the way

1514
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:48,799
Speaker 1: that that case ye, those murders inflamed attentions exactly.

1515
01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:52,200
Speaker 3: Yes, Yeah, and that's that's another important piece of context.

1516
01:25:52,439 --> 01:25:55,920
Speaker 1: That's a major omission on my part to not mention

1517
01:25:56,040 --> 01:25:57,240
Speaker 1: that there's like that.

1518
01:25:57,920 --> 01:26:01,040
Speaker 3: Right, and and and Pat, you know he wrote an

1519
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:02,840
Speaker 3: article for us for the website a couple of years ago,

1520
01:26:02,960 --> 01:26:06,040
Speaker 3: and these guys apparently you know, we're reading Meat Eater

1521
01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:09,479
Speaker 3: or they were sent it, and so they send Pat's

1522
01:26:09,520 --> 01:26:13,439
Speaker 3: article about this incident, this massacre, and they kind of

1523
01:26:13,640 --> 01:26:16,200
Speaker 3: go back and forth, joking about it, like, you know,

1524
01:26:16,920 --> 01:26:18,120
Speaker 3: this is us, Well, we're.

1525
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 2: Gonna really understanding the article.

1526
01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:22,360
Speaker 3: Though they didn't. I think they probably just read the headline,

1527
01:26:23,200 --> 01:26:26,639
Speaker 3: but it was about among guy who you know, killed

1528
01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:30,639
Speaker 3: a bunch of people, and you know, they were basically

1529
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:32,519
Speaker 3: joking about it, going going back and forth.

1530
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:34,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like, this will be us next year. The

1531
01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:36,080
Speaker 1: d n R won't be ready.

1532
01:26:36,280 --> 01:26:38,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just yeah, I just thought it was wild that,

1533
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:40,479
Speaker 3: you know, I'm reading this. It's like, you know, four

1534
01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:43,000
Speaker 3: hundred pages, I'm reading through this case file, and all

1535
01:26:43,040 --> 01:26:47,920
Speaker 3: of a sudden there's a meat Eater article sent back

1536
01:26:47,960 --> 01:26:50,400
Speaker 3: and forth. But I used to you know, a alleged

1537
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:56,719
Speaker 3: murderers m So, yeah, that there's a lot to that case.

1538
01:26:56,840 --> 01:27:00,000
Speaker 3: And I'm very curious to talk to the detective. Hopefully

1539
01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:03,000
Speaker 3: he'll speak with me, uh and we'll see, we'll see

1540
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:09,679
Speaker 3: where it goes. You know, the evidence was there was evidence,

1541
01:27:09,720 --> 01:27:12,400
Speaker 3: there was that sense spray. There's these text messages.

1542
01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:13,719
Speaker 2: There's a lot of cell phone pings.

1543
01:27:13,800 --> 01:27:17,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's cell phone pings. So there's certainly evidence. I

1544
01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:21,599
Speaker 3: don't know if an appellate court will think that there's enough.

1545
01:27:22,479 --> 01:27:24,280
Speaker 3: And that's kind of where it is right now.

1546
01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:37,320
Speaker 1: Dude. I love America. I love our constitution. Right, that's

1547
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:42,280
Speaker 1: the greatest document of governance ever produced. But good lord,

1548
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:44,520
Speaker 1: do we make it sometimes a little easy.

1549
01:27:45,960 --> 01:27:47,240
Speaker 2: To have the ability?

1550
01:27:47,360 --> 01:27:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, like you want to now and then imagine the

1551
01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:53,160
Speaker 1: world in which you can put screws to people a

1552
01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:57,200
Speaker 1: little bit better to be like, buddy, come on, we're

1553
01:27:57,200 --> 01:27:58,560
Speaker 1: gonna have a little chat.

1554
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:02,639
Speaker 3: Right right, and you know, just like you're not going home?

1555
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:05,360
Speaker 2: Yeah uh.

1556
01:28:05,400 --> 01:28:08,679
Speaker 3: And and just like going back to the victim's family,

1557
01:28:08,720 --> 01:28:12,120
Speaker 3: I mean, this has been horrible for them. I mean,

1558
01:28:12,320 --> 01:28:15,280
Speaker 3: and because in this case, file is included like emails

1559
01:28:15,400 --> 01:28:18,799
Speaker 3: back and forth from the detective and the family members

1560
01:28:19,200 --> 01:28:21,519
Speaker 3: and they're like have you found anything? He's like, we're

1561
01:28:21,560 --> 01:28:23,760
Speaker 3: working really hard, you know, and back and forth like

1562
01:28:23,800 --> 01:28:28,120
Speaker 3: this for years. And to go through not only losing

1563
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:33,559
Speaker 3: your dad, right, your uncle, but to not know who

1564
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:37,200
Speaker 3: did it and to hear all these rumors, right, because

1565
01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:40,599
Speaker 3: there's there's rumors just swirling on social media that they're

1566
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:46,680
Speaker 3: hearing from other people, people joking about exactly.

1567
01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:49,839
Speaker 2: It's I can't imagine. It's horrible.

1568
01:28:49,960 --> 01:28:53,680
Speaker 3: And so you know they, I think, we we're very

1569
01:28:53,720 --> 01:28:57,280
Speaker 3: happy to get this amount of resolution, and they're extremely

1570
01:28:57,960 --> 01:29:00,719
Speaker 3: you know, stressed, I think, And and again I haven't

1571
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:04,240
Speaker 3: talked to them, just like seeing what they post, you know,

1572
01:29:04,400 --> 01:29:08,680
Speaker 3: brief text exchanges about where this case is going, and

1573
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:11,439
Speaker 3: just hoping that they'll get that resolution and it will

1574
01:29:11,479 --> 01:29:14,640
Speaker 3: be final and they can kind of, you know, have

1575
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:16,000
Speaker 3: that that closure.

1576
01:29:19,080 --> 01:29:22,520
Speaker 2: Man, dude, I love it.

1577
01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:24,280
Speaker 1: It's when when do these one of these is going

1578
01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:25,920
Speaker 1: to start coming out? When can people start listening to

1579
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:26,800
Speaker 1: these krin you.

1580
01:29:26,720 --> 01:29:34,200
Speaker 3: Know, uh October thirtieth, Yeah, yeah, October thirtieth, right before Halloween.

1581
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:37,360
Speaker 5: I'm just going to add one plug, which is important

1582
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:41,760
Speaker 5: for the show and for the audience. Please instead of

1583
01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:44,800
Speaker 5: just go back and listen listening to the trailer in

1584
01:29:44,880 --> 01:29:47,160
Speaker 5: episode one and two and three and four, et cetera.

1585
01:29:47,479 --> 01:29:49,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, we skip, we skipped a million of them. We

1586
01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:50,160
Speaker 1: didn't talk about them more.

1587
01:29:50,240 --> 01:29:55,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, they're they're a ton, But please, because this is

1588
01:29:55,439 --> 01:30:00,719
Speaker 5: a net new, brand new podcast feed called Blood Trails.

1589
01:30:00,800 --> 01:30:05,360
Speaker 5: Please subscribe. Anywhere you listen to podcasts, please subscribe to

1590
01:30:05,400 --> 01:30:05,800
Speaker 5: the feed.

1591
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:09,720
Speaker 4: It's a lot of people use the word follow now

1592
01:30:09,800 --> 01:30:14,080
Speaker 4: subscribe out of fashion, sorry button or the follow button

1593
01:30:14,200 --> 01:30:15,240
Speaker 4: or whatever yet, thank.

1594
01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:15,479
Speaker 2: You, Phil.

1595
01:30:16,160 --> 01:30:20,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, subscribe follow as Phil puts it, follow so you

1596
01:30:20,640 --> 01:30:25,000
Speaker 1: can follow along there you go on Blood Trails. And

1597
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:27,080
Speaker 1: and then if you got if you got hot tips,

1598
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 1: send them in dude.

1599
01:30:28,520 --> 01:30:31,120
Speaker 3: We uh yeah, We've set up an email actually if

1600
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:33,720
Speaker 3: you have a tip about a case that you think

1601
01:30:33,720 --> 01:30:36,400
Speaker 3: we should cover, or one about one of the cases

1602
01:30:36,400 --> 01:30:39,599
Speaker 3: we do cover. It's Blood Trails at the meat eater

1603
01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:40,240
Speaker 3: dot com.

1604
01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:43,920
Speaker 2: All right, thanks, coming on, Jordan, Yeah, look forward to

1605
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:44,599
Speaker 2: doing this again.

1606
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:48,320
Speaker 1: Man, look makes me, you know, like sometimes people will

1607
01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:50,040
Speaker 1: tell me about a health problem they're having, and I

1608
01:30:50,040 --> 01:30:53,640
Speaker 1: start getting the health problem.

1609
01:30:53,960 --> 01:30:55,120
Speaker 2: You're not gonna get murdered.

1610
01:30:55,760 --> 01:30:58,960
Speaker 1: No, but I'm saying I'm having like all like all

1611
01:30:59,200 --> 01:30:59,960
Speaker 1: body react.

1612
01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:03,240
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm having an all body reaction.

1613
01:31:03,400 --> 01:31:06,840
Speaker 5: In these first episodes, Like my muscles are tense. These

1614
01:31:06,880 --> 01:31:08,519
Speaker 5: first episodes we've listened to.

1615
01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:11,040
Speaker 2: H They're really good.

1616
01:31:11,160 --> 01:31:15,920
Speaker 5: They're just so good, you know, original reporting, creepy music,

1617
01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:20,360
Speaker 5: like yeah, you get whole body feels while you're like

1618
01:31:21,040 --> 01:31:24,080
Speaker 5: totally just brought into that world.

1619
01:31:24,120 --> 01:31:29,080
Speaker 2: It gets you right in the fields. That's you, right

1620
01:31:29,120 --> 01:31:31,280
Speaker 2: in the fields. All right, thanks for coming on.

1621
01:31:31,439 --> 01:31:32,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely appreciate.

1622
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:33,120
Speaker 2: We'll do it again.