1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: the BNF podcast. The hydrogen industry loves to assign colors 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: to different production sources. Some of the names are instinctual, 4 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: like green hydrogen, which is produced from renewable energy. Today 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about gold hydrogen, and with a name like that, 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: we would assume that it's at the top of the stack. 7 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: So what makes geologic hydrogen gold? Well, firstly, it's naturally 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: occurring rather than man made, and it has the potential 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: to be less carbon intensive and importantly less expensive than 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: any other form of hydrogen. However, there are very limited 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: successful examples of extraction and utilization to date, and the 12 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: economics are nowhere near where they need to be. So 13 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 1: will technology improvements and synergies with the helium industry help 14 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: unlock its potential? To answer that question? Today, I am 15 00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: joined by Sammy Alisowi from BNF's Hydrogen team, alongside Mushfka 16 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: Mishi from our Technology and Innovation team. They share some 17 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,839 Speaker 1: of the research found in their recent report Technology Radar 18 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: Geologic Hydrogen. BNF clients will be able to find this 19 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: at BENF go on the Bloomberg Terminal or at benf 20 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: dot com. So let's discuss geologic hydrogen and whether it 21 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: should truly be considered gold. Mushwika, thanks for joining us, 22 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me and Sammy great having you here too. 23 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me as well. 24 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: Here we go. This episode is going to be gold. 25 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: We're talking about gold hydrogen. We did a show many 26 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: moons ago at this point, I want to say it 27 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: was well over a year ago where we went through 28 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: all of the colors associated with hydrogen and each of 29 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: them has invariably a different source that the hydrogen came from. 30 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: So today we're going to talk about gold hydrogen and 31 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: to give a bit of additional color and open in 32 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: tended so some context to that. It actually represents geologic hydrogen. 33 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: So let's start off with this definition. What is gold 34 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: or geologic hydrogen? 35 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, so geologic hydrogen, also known as clear why native orange, 36 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 3: or as you said, gold hydrogen, is naturally occurring hydrogen 37 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 3: that forms underground and often builds up in reservoirs within 38 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 3: the Earth's crust. But let's break that down a little further, right, So, 39 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 3: although the mechanisms of hydrogen production is uncertain, there's three 40 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 3: kind of big hypotheses that have been thrown around or proposed. 41 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 3: Researchers agree that at least some hydrogen is produced by 42 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 3: each pathway, but which pathway is dominating unclear. So you've 43 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 3: got the first one, which is radiolysis. It's basically a 44 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 3: radioactive decay of heavy metal securanium or thorium, and essentially 45 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 3: that radioactive decay can split water to become multiple particles 46 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 3: like hydrogen, hydroxide, all of that, and this occurs on 47 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 3: a geological time scale. The second one, which I think 48 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 3: is like the most widely accepted one, is serpentization, and 49 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 3: that when water reacts with iron rich automatic rocks like 50 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 3: olivene under really high temperatures and the iron is reduced 51 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 3: and in the process of reduction it releases hydrogen. There's 52 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: some research out there that suggests that some eighty percent 53 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 3: of the Earth's hydrogen could be a result of this process. 54 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 3: The third one, which is highly debated but worth mentioning, 55 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 3: is mental degassing, and that's when plate techton activity can 56 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 3: essentially trigger the degassing of hydrogen that's already present in 57 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 3: the Earth's core and mantle from way back, you know, 58 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 3: the Big Bang. 59 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: So I know that we benef like to actually refer 60 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: to hydrogen by the fuel source, so we tend to 61 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: refer to things as geologic hydrogen. I'm going back to 62 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: these colors again, clear, white, orange, gold, What is the 63 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: most popular one used? 64 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 3: I would say gold hydrogen is the one that mainstream 65 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 3: media has taken up, but we like to still refer 66 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 3: to it as geological age two. 67 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 2: There's one more. Natural hydrogen is pretty popular. There's a 68 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 2: summit in Pairs that happened a couple weeks ago that 69 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: I attended, and the summit is basically called Natural Hydrogen 70 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 2: Summits or HNT. So natural hydrogen was also a very 71 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: popular term. 72 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: So surely if natural hydrogen was easy to extract and plentiful, 73 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: there would not be need for companies to be making 74 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: hydrogen from other fuel sources like renewables or natural gas 75 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: or nuclear. So I could keep going. But hydrogen made 76 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: from so many different sources. So I want to know 77 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: how much of an opportunity is this and how much 78 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: hydrogen are we talking about? Can you put this into context? 79 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: You know, is this going to be Could it be 80 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: the dominant source of hydrogen at some point or will 81 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: it always be kind of on the fringe. 82 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 2: So again, yeah, we're talking about a fraction that's accessible 83 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: and that amounts to again in theory, we don't know 84 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: how much, but it's in the millions per year. And 85 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: how much that is is that a lot, like is 86 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: a million a year a lot. 87 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: For example years of what what's the unit of measure. 88 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 2: Tons per year? And to put it into context, hydrogen 89 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 2: consumed nowadays, the unabated or the not clean hydrogen every 90 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 2: year is around nineteen million tons per year. So yeah, 91 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: just to put into context that when we still talk 92 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 2: about a fraction of what's out there or what's possibly 93 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 2: out there, it's two things. One, it's very theoretical, but 94 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: it has people optimistic because even a fraction is saw 95 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: a lot. 96 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: Okay, so we have it out there and it can 97 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: in theory be extracted, but you have pointed out this 98 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: may be very difficult to get to. So what are 99 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: the technical barriers that are keeping us from being able 100 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: to get it out of the ground? Basically, why do 101 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: we not have this yet? 102 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 3: So in theory, like oil and gas, geological hydrogen could 103 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 3: be extracted from the earth using drilled wells, and there's 104 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 3: kind of three main reservoirs or like stores of hydrogen 105 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 3: people are investigating. So there's traps. That's the one that's 106 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 3: kind of most akin to oil and gas. It's an 107 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 3: accumulation of hydrogen that becomes trapped below like an impermeable 108 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,679 Speaker 3: layer of rock over time. And then there's the direct 109 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 3: kind of root, which some developers are aiming to drill 110 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 3: directly into iron ritual where cerpertalization is occurring and extract 111 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 3: the H two as it is being generated. Theoretically, that 112 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 3: could make geological hydrogen a renewable source of energy. The 113 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 3: third bit, which I haven't heard a lot of activity 114 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 3: being but it has been thrown around as a possibility, 115 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 3: is stimulated hydrogen. That's a type of development where you 116 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 3: could drill where it would potentially be produced, and then 117 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 3: stimulated artificially by injecting hot water and produce it artificially. 118 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 3: That's the one that's being referred to as orange hydrogen. 119 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: This doesn't sound totally dissimilar from fracking. Am I right 120 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: in drawing that parallel? 121 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 3: You could do that parallel? Yeah, and I have also 122 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 3: asked that question to people in the industry, But we're 123 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 3: not there yet. We're not at the point where you 124 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 3: could even consider stimulating the production of hydrogen. We're still 125 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 3: at the point where just finding traps is becoming the 126 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 3: main topic. 127 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: Okay, so we're trying to locate where in the world 128 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: these deposits are and then figure out how to get 129 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: them out. Do we have an idea of where they 130 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: are they evenly distributed? Everybody's got this or is it 131 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: really constant in some countries? 132 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 3: So I do have to highlight that current hotspots of 133 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 3: geological hydrogen are a function of where it has historically 134 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 3: been measured, rather than where it could be found in 135 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 3: the future. So currently today scientists have recorded resources in 136 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 3: a number of geographies, including the US, Australia, Brazil, Canada, Mali, Oman, 137 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 3: the Philippines, Russia. Most of the recordings we have so 138 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 3: far of actual national hydrogen artificially does concentrate in Eastern 139 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 3: Europe and the general Northern Asia area, and that's because 140 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 3: researchers were sponsored by the Soviet Union Soviet government rather 141 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 3: to find another kind of abiogenic source of producing oil 142 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 3: way back in the Cold War times. So where can 143 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 3: we find it? Unsure? But it has been found kind 144 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 3: of all across the world, and most of the activity 145 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,119 Speaker 3: today does concentrate within the general US North America area 146 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 3: in Australia. 147 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: I mean when you rattled off that first list of countries, 148 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: those are the ones that are actively involved in other 149 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: forms of hydrogen. So it's not surprising that kind of 150 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: all eyes around hydrogen there, which then leads me to 151 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: what companies have their eyes on this. Are they the 152 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: same players that are exploring green hydrogen that made from 153 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: renewables or those that are coming from blue hydrogen, which 154 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: is natural gas and carbon capture and storage. Are they 155 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: the same companies that are investigating other sources of hydrogen 156 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: and actually energy made from energy or are they completely 157 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: different companies. 158 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a very good question. Today we've counted around 159 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 3: fifty companies that are operating in this gold hydrogen industry, 160 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 3: headquartered mainly again in North America, Western Europe, Australia, and 161 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 3: I think the best way to segment the market would 162 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 3: be within three main categories. So obviously, you have your 163 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 3: pure play explorers that are prospecting for large reservoirs of hydrogen. 164 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 3: You also have your oil and gas and you're mining 165 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 3: like huge energy conglomerates that are funding the research and 166 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 3: development into the sector. But you also have this new 167 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 3: sector of people. We show these service providers that are 168 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 3: hoping to support exploration activities with gas separation equipment, geological surveying, 169 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 3: modeling tools, providing other geospatial data, or just like general 170 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 3: like EPCs, which is engineering and procurement construction of folks. 171 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: Okay, so you've said in theory a few times on 172 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: this show, but there is a case of successful extraction 173 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: in Mali. Can you explain kind of how that came about, 174 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: how recently it was, and what they're doing there. 175 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's actually a pretty interesting story. So essentially, 176 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty seven, hydrogen was accidentally discovered when a 177 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 3: cigarette of an engineer drilling water wells calls an explosion. 178 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 3: The well back then was kind of deemed useless and cemented, 179 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 3: But in twenty twelve, this company based out of Canada, Hydroma, 180 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 3: purchased the rights to explore in the region. So when 181 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 3: they unplugged the well, they discovered a nearly pure stream 182 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 3: of gas made up of ninety eight percent hydrogen by volume, 183 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 3: which they've soon routed to produce electricity for like nearby villages, 184 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 3: and it's still used today. So the reservoir today produces 185 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 3: about five to fifty tons of hydrogen per year. Most 186 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 3: electoralizers are probably doing about three to four times more 187 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 3: than that. So if five tons of hydrogen are produced 188 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 3: and used in a wind turbine or fuel cell with 189 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 3: fifty percent efficiency, you're looking at about one hundred megawatt 190 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 3: hours of electricity, which is what like ten houses being 191 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 3: powered in the US. 192 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 2: So not a lot long story, short one thing about 193 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 2: this project and a point that Mushfika mentioned. So this 194 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 2: project is now being used as an example and a 195 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 2: benchmark to start like exploring other places around the world, 196 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 2: and it's definitely global. And speaking of companies, national oil 197 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: companies in the Middle East are getting involved. They're interested, 198 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 2: you know, they're experts in a lot of technical aspects 199 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 2: that apply to extracting gold hydrogen of course, because it's 200 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 2: similar to extracting oil and other molecules from the ground. 201 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 2: And so they are now being more vocal and they 202 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 2: reach out to those startups, those researchers that have experience 203 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 2: in analyzing a lot of data to find out exactly 204 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: what the potential is, and those national oil companies and 205 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 2: just oil and gas giants reach out to them or 206 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 2: vice versa to work together and collaborate so they fill 207 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 2: the full picture, some provide data, and again with this 208 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 2: project that is producing today right now, they've found potential 209 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 2: with similar gas composition because Mushwika mentioned also it's the 210 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: gas composition ninety eight percent hydrogen and the other two 211 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: percent is methane and nitrogen. But ninety percent of hydrogen 212 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 2: is a lot. It's very pure. But I'll get back 213 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: to that point about hydrogen purity and how it plays 214 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 2: into emissions costs and just overall projects. 215 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: Well, so actually you've led right there. Let's talk about 216 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: emissions associated with this because I brought up racking. Is 217 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: this racking? We're going to see some weak and you'd 218 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: mentioned methane, and even though it is a small percentage, 219 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: overall it is a very potent greenhouse gas. So tell 220 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 1: me how clean is it really? And are we talking 221 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: about something that is really part of a transition to 222 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: a clean economy or is this another bridge fuel which 223 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 1: many people use to refer to natural gas as it's 224 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: something that's on the way to decarbonizing, but maybe not 225 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: the end game. 226 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 2: So first off, you have now studies and companies who 227 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: are looking into this, doing something called life cycle analysis 228 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 2: where they look into a project from start to finish 229 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 2: and see what are the possible emissions that can result 230 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: from the process of extracting gold hydrogen. So you have 231 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 2: stuff like fugitive emissions and embodied emissions. Now, fugitive emissions. 232 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: Does sound like the ones that escape when you're extracting 233 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: that's it. 234 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: So fugitive emissions are the ones that are attributed to 235 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: like methane, gas, nitrogen or yeah, any gas that escapes 236 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 2: while you're in the process of like extracting the gold hydrogen. 237 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: Embodied emissions are technically those indirect emissions that come from 238 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 2: different processes and are attributed to different parts of extracting 239 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: the gold hydrogen. So it's not directly related. 240 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it's everything related to the process. Right, It's 241 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: kind of like the equivalent of a scope three. 242 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 2: But for this exactly that's exactly it. So let's get 243 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 2: down to whether or not it's clean. So based on 244 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 2: life cycle analysis studies, they found that it is clean. 245 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 2: How clean, it's cleaner than most types of hydrogen being produced. 246 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 2: So in terms of numbers, in a gas mix of 247 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: eighty five percent mole percentage of hydrogen and twelve percent 248 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 2: nitrogen with around two percent methane, the carbon intensity is 249 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 2: about zero point four kilograms of CO two per kilogram 250 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 2: of hydrogen gas. That is extremely low. When you think 251 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 2: about again other types of hydrogen working up from cleanness 252 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 2: to less clean and then to what we have today, 253 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 2: gold hydrogen sits at the lower end, meaning that it's 254 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: the cleanest form of hygroen, or has the potential to 255 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: be the cleanest, because again this is all in terms 256 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 2: of potential and in theory and based off analysis. When 257 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: we look at green hydrogen or hydrogen produced from machines 258 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 2: called electrolyzers that split the water into hydrogen atoms and 259 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 2: oxygen atoms. That's powered by green electricity or renewable electricity 260 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: solar wind, and that's what makes it green hydrogen. Those 261 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 2: emissions are anywhere between one kilogram of CO two emitted 262 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 2: perkologram of hydrogen upwards to five kilograms of CO two 263 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 2: perculogram of hydrogen. Now that's a lot of numbers, but 264 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: just to say that gold hydrogen, it's less than one 265 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 2: kilogram of CO two emitted percilogram of hydrogen. But that 266 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 2: depends on hydrogen purity. So when there's less hydrogen in 267 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 2: the gas composition, there's going to be more methane more nitrogen. 268 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: The more methane rather than hydrogen, that means it's definitely 269 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 2: going to be a lot more emissions. So it really 270 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: comes down to the gas mixture. But based on studies 271 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 2: of the most common gas mixture sites that they found 272 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: and they do want to extract from, we're talking about 273 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: zero point five to three kilograms of CO two per 274 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 2: kilogram of hydrogen extracted. It is also within the guidelines 275 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 2: of accessing tax credits and definitions in the IRA for example, 276 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: or the Inflation Reduction Act, where they have outlined what 277 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: is considered clean hydrogen. And again to put it into context, 278 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 2: when we're talking about these numbers, these low numbers for 279 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 2: gold hydrogen that falls within that definition. 280 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: So let's talk about economic viability, which is the big 281 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: elephant in the room here. So it can be hard 282 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: to determine this with emerging technologies, and I feel like 283 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: this is almost an unfair question, but there is some 284 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: information that we should consider when it comes to extraction. 285 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: So how much is it going to cost and will 286 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: this cost comparison to other sources of production? Are we 287 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: going to get there? And is it going to some 288 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: days the hope that it is cheaper. I'm kind of 289 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: asking a leading question, but my real question is just 290 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: do we see a path to economic viability on gold 291 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: hydrogen that is maybe more compelling than the other sources 292 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: of hydrogen that are out there, given that there is 293 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: so much waste when you make energy from energy. 294 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 3: Long story short, geological hydrogen developer are targeting the cost 295 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 3: of a dollar per kilogram of hydrogen as it is 296 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 3: exiting the processing facilities, but it is unclear whether this 297 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 3: value is the cost needed to kind of outcompete existing 298 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 3: methods as you can have alluded to, or if the 299 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 3: tech actually can achieve this cost. It's a little too 300 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 3: early to kind of make either claim, but we can 301 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: look at kind of what is driving the costs. There 302 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 3: is I would say three main things to look at. 303 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 3: The first thing, obviously, is capital expense. Geological hydrogen projects 304 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 3: are very capital intensive with huge, like long bill times, 305 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 3: so a project can easily cost five hundred million dollars 306 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 3: to a billion dollars, depending on how many wells you're building, 307 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 3: where in the world, it is, how deep each well is, 308 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 3: what kind of processing of the gas you need, what 309 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 3: the gas make sure actually is if you have more contaminants, 310 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 3: like Sam you mentioned the methae, the nitrogen is you're 311 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 3: going to have to spend a lot of energy and 312 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 3: effort to kind of separate out the gas to make 313 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 3: it like a pure stream of hydrogen. So capital costs 314 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 3: can easily equal to like twenty cents per kilogram of hydrogen. 315 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 3: And as I mentioned, you have a kind of a 316 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 3: pure stream scenario and a mixed gas stream scenario. Operational 317 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 3: expenses grow almost tenfold in a mixed gas scenario as 318 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 3: opposed to one with a pure gas stream, and this 319 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 3: is mainly driven by energy costs of gas processing, the 320 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 3: need to kind of maintain and replace the equipment, and 321 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 3: talking to these industry folks, the biggest expense is like 322 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 3: the membranes and the equipment you're using to separate the gas. 323 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 3: Additional costs can accrue upon like the depletion of the well, 324 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 3: which then needs to be plugged or decommissioned, which can 325 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 3: add like upwards of a one hundred thousand dollars per well. 326 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 3: But it's interesting because the revenue projections people have given 327 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 3: or disclosed to me do make this seem like it 328 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 3: is worthwhile. Yeah, you're spending almost a billion dollars building 329 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 3: a project, but the potential revenue that can come into 330 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 3: the next like fifteen twenty years as the gas is 331 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 3: being depleted is quite attractive. 332 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 2: And to add to Mashrika's point, So in an actual 333 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 2: what it's going to cost is hundreds of millions of 334 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 2: dollars to extract gold hydrogen, and it really depends on 335 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: the different sites, different purity levels. But those are estimates. 336 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 2: You know, we're not gonna know for sure until we 337 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 2: see a project come to fruition. And actually this is 338 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 2: definitely speaking from experience and what we've seen with green 339 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 2: hydrogen again bringing it as an example and what comes 340 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: down to it. In the industry, when you think about costs, 341 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 2: people are interested in how much a kilogram of hydrogen costs. 342 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: So when we think about gold hydrogen, with certain assumptions, 343 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: not even factoring in transport costs, which is that separate issue, 344 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 2: geologic hydrogen can go from zero point five dollars to 345 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 2: around just above two dollars per kilogram of hydrogen in 346 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 2: terms of cost. Now, again that's an estimate with a 347 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: lot of assumptions attached to it. When we look at 348 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: green hydrogen, with some projects that we've seen actually get 349 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 2: awarded funding and actually get a sign like how much 350 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 2: it's going to cost and how with the subsidies it 351 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 2: costs upward of twelve dollars per which is extremely expensive. 352 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 2: When we think about gray hydrogen or the hydrogen being 353 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: produced today, it's at one dollar per kilogram of hydrogen 354 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,479 Speaker 2: that's mostly in the US because of cheap natural gas prices, 355 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: and you can go up to three dollars per kilogram 356 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: of hydrogen. You want to make gold hydrogen competitive, so 357 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 2: that's why, like Mushfika said, we want to target one 358 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 2: dollar or less than one dollar percilogram of hydrogen. And 359 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 2: based on estimates right now, they think geologic hydrogen can 360 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 2: be cheaper, so it can be competitive. But what we've 361 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 2: seen so far from green hydrogen, it's more than six 362 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 2: times as much as hydrogen being produced today. 363 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: So Sammy, I love that you brought up transport because 364 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: this relates to more than gold hydrogen. This molecule it's smaller, lighter, 365 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: more flammable than natural gas. And meanwhile, you hear the 366 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: industry talks so much about how we're going to use 367 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: a lot of the same infrastructure and we're going to 368 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: put them on the same ships and use the same pipes, 369 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: and I know that we have on this show talked 370 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: about how that's not immediately going to be possible. They'll 371 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 1: be quite a bit of retrofitting needed so in order 372 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: to make this form of hydrogen possible to be used 373 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: around the world, because think about the fact that now 374 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 1: we can no longer locate the production facilities near where 375 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: they need to be. The hydrogen is where it is 376 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: in nature. How's the transportation story coming along, and have 377 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: there been any breakthroughs there on the I guess technology side, 378 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: but essentially, can we contain that molecule to get it 379 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: where it needs to go? 380 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 2: That's a great question. And again, the issue with transports 381 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 2: ties back to getting it where it needs to be. 382 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 2: So we're talking about demand at the same time, which 383 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: has been a topic for hydrogen for a long time. 384 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 2: Now issues with demand, and it's good to see now 385 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 2: at different forums and summits like the recent one that 386 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 2: happened in Paris, the Natural Hydrogen Summit, it was good 387 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 2: to see that they're thinking about demand at this point, 388 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,479 Speaker 2: maybe not as much as they need to be, but 389 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 2: it is a topic of discussion because they can't control 390 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 2: where gold hydrogen is being extracted from those sites are static, 391 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 2: so you're really limited to those sites or specific sites. 392 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: And so now you think about, okay, we after we extract, 393 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 2: after we're done with all of that, how can we 394 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 2: get it where it needs to go? And how much 395 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 2: it's going to cost. When I go back to the 396 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 2: cost that I mentioned, that wasn't even accounting for transport costs, 397 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 2: which can reach up to seven dollars per kilogram, which 398 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 2: is a lot when you think about it. And when 399 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 2: we talk about transport, one of the most common ways 400 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 2: that they're thinking about right now, or that they were 401 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: mentioned in Europe specifically, we're pipelines existing gas pipelines that 402 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 2: maybe they can transport to now it would make economic 403 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 2: sense if they're in large enough quantities like the hydrogen 404 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 2: being transported. 405 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: Are we seeing any of these projects happening yet, Are 406 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: we seeing pipelines being retrofitted effectively? 407 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 2: And where in the world right so for other forms 408 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 2: of clean hydrogen, green and blue, how they're being transported. 409 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 2: We've seen pipelines work, yes, but still not well enough 410 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 2: for it to really make economic sense. And also there's 411 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: a lot of issues around it being a very flammable source. 412 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 2: It's very hard to deal with hydrogen, and it's complicated 413 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 2: because it takes up more volume than other types of gases. 414 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: So this is a tough question. So then I guess 415 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: we're getting to a place where you might be actually 416 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: looking at the demand sources, potentially going to where the 417 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: source of the hydrogen actually is instead of the other 418 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: way around. So then let's talk a little bit about extraction. 419 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: Are there any synergies with any other industries, because if 420 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: you're out there looking for hydrogen, you may come up short. 421 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: You brought up a few times that this is something 422 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: where we're still looking for the deposits, we're still trying 423 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: to figure out how to extract it. Is there any 424 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: chance that a company that's out there searching for something 425 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: else and try and extract something else might actually stumble 426 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: upon it? And where did those synergies lie? 427 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 3: So companies that are extracting hydrogen, they are also hoping 428 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 3: to extract helium, which often is co founded with hydrogen. 429 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 3: And the thing about helium is that helium is currently 430 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 3: in shortage across the world for a lot of things. 431 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 3: Obviously you see your fancy party balloons, but also helium 432 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 3: is used for a lot of other things like medical 433 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 3: imaging and labs. And the biggest thing to note here 434 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 3: is that when you co produce helium, you can almost 435 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 3: double the revenue that you're getting back using a gold 436 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 3: hydrogen project, and most of that it's because the helium 437 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 3: is so so expensive right now. Will the cost of 438 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 3: helium go down as a lot of these projects are 439 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 3: producing helium, then we have a different problem where we're 440 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 3: at an oversupply and low demand potentially, But talking to 441 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 3: people in the industry, it seems like they've already accounted 442 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 3: for a decreasing prices in their economic modeling for projects. 443 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 3: The helium could be a huge boon for the gold 444 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 3: hydrogen industry as a whole. One project that we have 445 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 3: profiled extensively in my note is a Mazlim project in 446 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 3: Spain being created by Helius Aragon, and that project model's 447 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 3: production of helium to be nearly two eight hundred tons 448 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty nine, and that progressive few decreases to 449 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 3: thirty one tons in twenty fIF three. For contact, that 450 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 3: is two percent of the gas by volume that the 451 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 3: project is expecting to produce, So two percent of helium 452 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 3: is going to bring in almost fifty percent of the 453 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 3: revenue that the project as a whole is expected to 454 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 3: bring in. 455 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: Because when you see this industry alignment, this is where 456 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: you see some really great breakthroughs. I mean, batteries is 457 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: a great example. When you see them in consumer goods, 458 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: you see them for storage, you see them for electric vehicles, 459 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: So lithium ion batteries, then everybody's got their eyes on them, 460 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: and then we see massive cost of clients. So there's 461 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: a lot of hype around hydrogen and we'll see what 462 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: comes to pass. This is definitely an area under development. 463 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: So for those who have actually been to a BNF summit, 464 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: you're going to notice that we have debates at the 465 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,479 Speaker 1: summit and it's actually one of my favorite types of 466 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: presentations that our analysts do at these events. So, given 467 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: this is a space with a lot of hype around it, 468 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: I want one of you to take the side of 469 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: the hypeman for hydrogen. I want the other to take 470 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: the side of the skeptic and tell me why. And 471 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: I think, Sammy, you decided you were going to take 472 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: the hype man side, and Muspeka you're going to take 473 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: the skeptic. And you know what, because I want to 474 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: end on a positive note. Mispeka, I'm going to make 475 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: you go first with the skeptic argument, specifically for geologic hydrogen. 476 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. You know it's not news that I 477 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 3: am a skeptic of hydrogen and specifically for gold hydrogen. 478 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 3: The main thing for me, I think is only one 479 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 3: project has been like fully completed at commercial level. So 480 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 3: until we see more projects at least produce hydrogen and 481 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 3: actually sell it, I'm not buying this. Secondly, I think 482 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 3: the bigger thing is hydrogen demand as a whole is struggling. 483 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 3: You can see that supply exists, but only like I 484 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 3: think twelve percent of all the supplies that's expected to 485 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 3: come out actually has contracted optakes, and not even all 486 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 3: of them are binding optakes. So until you can show 487 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 3: me the demand for hydrogen and show me how people 488 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 3: are actually going to pay the amount of money that 489 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 3: they're paying for these premiums, I just don't see how 490 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 3: gold hydrogen as a whole is going to take off. 491 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 3: It has huge potential, I admit I agree with that 492 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 3: it has much potential, but until they transport kinks, the 493 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 3: issues with demand, the issues with actually drilling and finding 494 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 3: hydrogen can be done economically. I just don't see how 495 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 3: this becomes like a huge, multi billion dollar market. 496 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 2: Okay, sammy counter right, that's tough to counter. But here's 497 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 2: my thing, innocent, I provement guilty. So so far, what 498 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 2: we have with gold hydrogen or geologic or natural hydrogen, 499 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 2: it's not a lot. I agree. There's a lot of 500 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 2: potential though, and based on estimates right now, and it 501 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 2: always starts with estimates and overviews and just sizing up 502 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 2: the potential, there is a lot. Here's why I think 503 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 2: geologic hydrogen could work in the industry right now. We 504 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 2: are already seeing sites and where they found a lot 505 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: of hydrogen potentially with a lot of high purity levels, 506 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: gold hydrogen has the potential to be the cheapest of 507 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 2: all the other types of hydrogen. A problem that was 508 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 2: mentioned is getting it where it needs to be. We're 509 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 2: already seeing projects though that are close to demand centers 510 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 2: in Europe which could solve that challenge. So there's always 511 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 2: a solution to a problem. And when we think about 512 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 2: emissions associated because at the end of the day, the 513 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 2: two main things we talk about are the economics and 514 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 2: the environmental impact. So we've seen based on the estimates 515 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: that it has the potential to be really cheap, and 516 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 2: we've seen based on estimates and life cycle analysis, it 517 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 2: could be really clean, cleaner than any other form of 518 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 2: hydrogen we've seen today being produced. I think that's promising. 519 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 2: When you see these numbers based on extensive and thorough analysis, 520 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 2: this bodes well to at least start looking into this 521 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 2: and start developing these projects. It could work or it couldn't, 522 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: but it's always good to see numbers like this. And finally, 523 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 2: when we talk about the potential how much is there, 524 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 2: because we do need a certain amount of hydrogen to 525 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 2: be produced to decarbonize or replace the unclean hydrogen weap today. 526 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 2: One of the numbers that we mentioned was an order 527 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 2: of magnitude. There's possible in the world to be up 528 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: to billions of tons of hydrogen. We don't know yet, 529 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 2: but if we assume just two percent a fraction of 530 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 2: what can be extracted from those accessible sites, I think 531 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,199 Speaker 2: that's really promising, and at this stage it's safe to 532 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 2: be optimistic, which I am at. 533 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: This point in the industrial application to decarbonize these hard 534 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: to abate sectors that certainly exist. So maybe this will 535 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: be a part of that puzzle. Sammy Musfica, thank you 536 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: so much for joining today. 537 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Sana, thanks for having me. 538 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray 539 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: with production assistance from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg NIF is a 540 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 1: service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This 541 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed, as 542 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: investment advice, investment recommendations, or a recommendation as to an 543 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: investment or other strategy. Bloomberg ANIF should not be considered 544 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: as information sufficient upon which to base an investment decision. 545 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its affiliates makes 546 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness 547 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: of the information contained in this recording, and any liability 548 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: as a result of this recording is expressly disclaimed. 549 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 3: M