1 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: It's time to go into that vault. So we're gonna 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: be airing part two of the Vault episode that we 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: started with last Saturday. Isn't that right? That's right? This 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: one originally published August, the trans Humanist Rapture War Part two, 7 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: which again was a discussion of various trans human utopian 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: ideas um in light of various religious ideas about like 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: a post Earth utopia. Now, I think the religious aspects 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: of techno utopianism and techno dystopianism are are both actually 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: fascinating and sort of uhh, endless the bottomless wells right 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: that you can always come back to. I think we 13 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: will revisit this topic again soon. Yeah, though though I 14 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: don't know if we'll discuss my my concept of a 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: rapture proof suit any further. This may be the only 16 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: place that idea I gets still. No, that is a 17 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: whole thing that I was gonna say, would do a 18 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: whole episode on that, But in fact, what you should 19 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: just do is keep that idea to yourself and get 20 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: some venture capital behind it. Well, uh yeah, maybe we 21 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: can make that happen. But for now, let's suit up 22 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: and head in. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind 23 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: from how Stuff Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff 24 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: to Blow your mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and 25 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick and Robert and I. Last time, we're 26 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: talking about the rapture about Christian eschatology, religious eschatology in general, 27 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: and secular eschatology of a technological nature such as the 28 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: singularity trans humanism. And our discussion went so long that 29 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: we decided to divide it up into two parts. So 30 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: here is the second part of our conversation on the 31 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: end times. Okay, well, I've got another uh futurist, sort 32 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: of techno futurist mindset that I think we can ask. 33 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: Is this a religion? Is it like a religion or 34 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: does it just sort of like uh tickle some of 35 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: the same weak spots. We've got as many religions too. 36 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: So I want to talk about the singularity. Robert, do 37 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: you feel good about the Singularity? You feel bad about it, 38 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: you think it's a bunch of hooey? I feel good 39 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: about it. Uh, I mean part of that I think 40 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: comes from just being I'm a fan of like the 41 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: A and M. Banks culture series model of of a 42 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: post singularity, post scarcity world in which the super intelligent 43 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: computers have our best interests at heart. They kind of 44 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: look after us as kind of benevolent, semi noble gods. Yeah, okay, okay, Well, 45 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: so I think we need to explore this idea because this, 46 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: to me is is the core of this kind of 47 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: topic we're talking about today, like technological eschatology. So you 48 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: could say the singularity, I think has come to have 49 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: almost as many interpretations as the Christian escoton right, Like, 50 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: just like the Christian eschatologies, they're all sort of loosely 51 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: related and grounded in similar beliefs, but they vary in 52 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: the explicit details or in the way you'd explain them, 53 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: even if they're not necessarily contradictory. So, in the most 54 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: basic sense, the singularity is a hypothesis that technological innovation, 55 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: at some point in the future is going to reach 56 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: a tipping point of unimaginable innovation that fundamentally changes the 57 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: fate of humanity on a rapid time scale. Very often 58 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: it involves artificial intelligence. So I'm gonna talk about three 59 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: basic models just to give you an idea. One one 60 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: is the super intelligence model, and this is the idea 61 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: that humans are going to create superhuman artificial intelligence. So 62 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: when you think about it, intelligence, I would probably agree 63 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: has been the most rapid driver of change in the 64 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: universe up until this point in cosmological or geological history. 65 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: What difference does ten thousand years usually make to anything, 66 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: you know, not a lot, hardly any, But you think 67 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: about how much Earth has changed in the past ten 68 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: thousand years due to intelligence. Once, once we reach the 69 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: creation of machines with functional intelligence exceeding that of any human, 70 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: assuming that actually does happen, proponents argue that this superhuman 71 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence is just going to rapidly transform our environment. 72 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: The conditions of our lives, and the capabilities of human 73 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 1: civilization will be fundamentally transformed on a very huge scale. 74 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: And they say, so the age of super intelligence is dawning, 75 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: and this is the singularity. Another way of looking at 76 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: it is also based on artificial intelligence, but it's known 77 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: as the intelligence explosion, and this is based on the 78 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: idea of self improving intelligence paradigms that surpass our ability 79 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: to understand or control them. So let's say, Robert, you 80 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: build a superhuman artificial intelligence. What's the first thing you 81 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: have it? Do? UM? Co author my paper about the 82 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: creation superhero human AI intelligence. Oh yeah, well that's that's 83 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: a smart move. But do some talk shows to promote 84 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: it in my book about the creation? Yeah? I guess yeah. 85 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: It's hard to think past that, right, come up with 86 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: the tastiest breakfast cereal ever created? No? I mean what 87 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people say is, well, you know, the 88 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: best bang for your buck as soon as you create 89 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: a superhuman artificial intelligence is that it would be best 90 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: put to use designing ways to rapidly make itself more intelligent, 91 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: which theoretically it should be able to do. So if 92 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: it can do this, it will experience exponential self improvement. 93 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: And not only will our technological intelligence grow, and not 94 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: only will it accelerate, but it's acceleration will accelerate. I 95 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: feel like the people saying that that's the best use 96 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: of super intelligence UM have not seen any science fiction film, 97 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: because it seems like the thing to do is all right. 98 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: It's it's reached the point to where it's smart enough 99 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: that I can take it to Vegas and and just 100 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: totally kill but it's not so smart that it will 101 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: literally kill me, or or skying at the entire country. Well, 102 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I think the argument would 103 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: go that, well, even if you don't do that, somebody's 104 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: gonna somebody's gonna say, well, I want to have a 105 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: smarter AI than your AI, so I'm gonna have my 106 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: AI improve itself that I don't know. You take your 107 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: AI to a poker game and somebody else has been 108 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: having their AI self improve its own intelligence, and it's 109 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: telling that person out this metaphors out of hand. But 110 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: but you want to be the person with the smartest day. 111 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: I right, Well, but it's kind of like you're you're 112 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: reaching a point where you can create your own demons, 113 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 1: create your own deities, and in doing so, it seems 114 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: like you you need to know where to stop, like 115 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: like maybe not make a full blown god, that make 116 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: a demi god. Let me make an artificial demi god, 117 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: because then it literally it has limits. Right, Yeah, you 118 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: want a Hercules not a Zeus. Yeah, I'd far rather 119 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: deal with a renegade or Hercules this in a situation 120 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: as opposed to renegades, which of course is I mean, 121 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: it's pretty much how both of those guys rolled what 122 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: they wanted. Okay, one more idea of the singularity, and 123 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: this is a I think a simpler version, but it 124 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: just says that at some point technological process again, usually 125 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: the emphasis is on artificial intelligence, but you could put 126 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: the emphasis elsewhere. At some point it begins to accelerate 127 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: so quickly that our power to predict the outcome becomes 128 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: basically zero. Events will become so strange and unpredictable that 129 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: we we just can't even imagine them from our present 130 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: vantage point. So an outside context dident. Yeah, actually, sure, 131 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: outside context problem caused by technological innovation. Yeah. So a 132 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: lot of modern singularity thinking can be traced, and there 133 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: are plenty people who have written about this over the years, 134 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: but I'd say the biggest figure in the singularity today 135 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: is Ray Kerswile. He's the technologist and author. Ray Kers, 136 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: while very smart guy, worked on technology for years. He's 137 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: made a lot of very accurate and interesting predictions that 138 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: have that have proved correct over the years. But he's 139 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: also made a lot of predictions about the future that 140 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: a lot of people now think are I don't know, 141 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: maybe he's being overly optimistic, but anyway, curse Will has 142 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: argued in several books that the Singularity, this artificial intelligence 143 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: revolution that's going to fundamentally change humanity, is coming, and 144 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: it's coming soon. In his two thousand five book The 145 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:36,839 Speaker 1: Singularity Is Near, curse Will predicted it would happen in so, Robert, 146 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: you've got any plans for um? I think my son 147 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: will be out of high school at that point. I 148 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: think he's he's uh graduating high school theoretically in so Okay, 149 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: So I guess. So, I don't know, Well, he have 150 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: a job by the time the Singularity happened. I don't know. Yeah, 151 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: It's it's crazy to think about that, Like what do 152 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: you what do you? What do you do post high school? 153 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: If the Singularity is coming in just a few years, 154 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: Like do you go to college? Hey? With with the 155 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: singularity in mind? Bingo, That is a very good question. 156 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: So so let's back up. Let's just assume for a 157 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: moment a singularity type scaton is coming. That might be 158 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: a big assumption, but let's assume something like that will happen. 159 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: Is it good or bad? Will we get the AI 160 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: my Trea or the AI ragnarokh Well, obviously I want 161 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: my Traya as opposed to Ragnarock. Yeah, I mean, so 162 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: the my Trea version, what would it be? You know, 163 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: war cease, all diseases, including aging itself or eradicated. There's 164 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: general abundance of resources and wealth. Everybody gets what they want. 165 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: Humans live indefinitely in a state of harmony, exploration, and bliss. 166 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: If I feel like the model we get in most 167 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: sci fi scenarios is that you think you're gonna get 168 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: my Treia, but then you're actually on the road to Ragnarok, 169 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: and then you end up just kind of burning everything 170 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 1: down and going back to whatever the nest up system 171 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: you had before. Right, So why do people think that 172 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: we're on the road to Ragnarok? Well, you mentioned earlier, 173 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: you know, the machine, a machine smart enough to to 174 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 1: do all this great stuff for you, is also smart 175 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: enough to figure out how to kill you if it 176 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: wants to. So why might it want to? Well, super 177 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: intelligent machines, people say, well, either intentionally choose to eliminate 178 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: humanity for some reason, though I admit I've never heard 179 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: this explain in a way that made a lot of 180 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: sense to me, Like why they would intentionally choose to 181 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: hunt us down and eradicate us. So maybe somebody could 182 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: explain that to me, Um, but the judge of the 183 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: living and the dead, it could be. But but the 184 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: other version is that perhaps merely by a flow of design, 185 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: they tend to damage or destroy humanity as a byproduct 186 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: of executing their primary function, and that that vision seems 187 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: more plausible to me. But so, here's one common example 188 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: of how something like this would. Oh, you've got a 189 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: super intelligent computer program that's smarter than any human. It 190 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: can improve its own intelligence, is just crazy smart, and 191 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: it's designed to maximize efficiency along the production line of 192 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: a factory that makes toilet paper. So somebody forgets to 193 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: add some conditionals and the computer program ends up turning 194 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: all the atoms on the surface of the earth, including 195 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: the ones in your body, into toilet paper. It has 196 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: done its job. Well, that sounds kind of crazy, But 197 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: some tam or version of that nightmare seems more plausible 198 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: to me than the intentional terminator style eradication of humans. 199 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: I don't know what do you think about that, Robert Um? Yeah, 200 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: I I I think I tend to interpret the sort 201 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: of sky net models the sort of like all humans 202 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: are flawed. That's thus all humans must be eradicated thing 203 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: to be more of a uh more rejecting insecurities. Well 204 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: for that and also just a bedtime story to say, 205 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: like make sure you program in that fail safe, right, 206 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: you know, be And I feel like obviously we would 207 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: have that fail safe, and that if it were a 208 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: super intelligent machine, it would have Yeah. I just have 209 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: a hard time buying into that model of a super 210 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: advanced system that it would be so catastrophically myopic. Yeah, yeah, 211 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: I mean, both visions have their advocates right there. There 212 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: are smart people on both sides. But the funny thing 213 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: is all this is assuming that something like the singularity 214 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: will actually happen one way or another, and not everyone 215 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: agrees that it will. But there are also people who 216 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: have been critical of the idea of the singularity, and 217 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: some people who have characterized it as a religious idea inherently. 218 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: One of them is the technologist and virtual reality pioneer 219 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: Jerone Landier, and he's got a lot of opinions about 220 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: the Singularity. He's made this case in in books, said 221 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: that it's not only religious in nature, but potentially a 222 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: dangerous or harmful religion. So I read an article that 223 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: he wrote and published in The New York Times in 224 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: two thousand ten called the First Church of Robotics, and 225 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: I thought this was interesting. So Lanier points out that 226 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: every news report of an advance in artificial intelligence gives 227 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,239 Speaker 1: us the impression that the field is making steady progress 228 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: to overtake human intelligence and capabilities. And I sort of 229 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: agree with him. I get that feeling when you see 230 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: these little news stories like there's there's a new artificial 231 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: intelligence program that can smell flatulence. There's a new artificial 232 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: intelligence program that can tell a joke. You know, all 233 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 1: these like weird little quirks of humanity, and they seem 234 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: to add up to something over time. Okay, so it 235 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: can smell farts, that can make jokes about farts because 236 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: it's it's about the corner, like the stand up. It 237 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: has become Adam Sandler. Yeah, it has surpassed its humanity. 238 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, so there's nothing wrong with individual AI projects, 239 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: Lannier says, In fact, he has worked on them himself. 240 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: But he makes a couple of point points. He says, 241 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: individual advances in artificial intelligence research can be interpreted more 242 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: usefully without the overall framework of AI meaning without the 243 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: idea that computers are becoming synthetic versions of human intelligence. 244 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: And the example he gives is, you know, the IBM 245 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: computer winning on Jeopardy, Watson going on, they're beating people 246 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: on Jeopardy. So he he says, that's a theatrical stunt 247 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: that over sells a fake aspect of what this computer 248 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: program can do, you know, conversational human knowledge, which it 249 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: doesn't really have, and under sells a real aspect of 250 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: its capabilities that it's a very powerful phrase based search engine. 251 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: And then he also says that AI, uh, that the 252 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: AI that in some way passes for human requires humans 253 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: to do all the work, Like when you've got a 254 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: social robot, you know, going around saying like Hi, I'm 255 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: your friendly social robot. Look at how advanced my artificial 256 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: intelligence is. His point is that humans be being social, 257 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: will work with what they get. And if you're having 258 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: a transaction with a robot that you are told is 259 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: social in nature, you can very easily adapt your social 260 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: behaviors to the extreme limitations of this machine, and they 261 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: do tend to be pretty extreme. You're not going to 262 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: mistake at a machine for a human. Yeah, I mean, 263 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: as we've discussed on the show before. I mean humans 264 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: can have we can have conversations with with a with 265 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: a doll, with a with a smiley face. It's scrawled 266 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: on the wall and in putting. So, uh, it's not 267 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: that much of a step to say that, yes, we 268 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: can have a conversation with a chat bot. We can, 269 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: we can have a conversation with a search engine, and 270 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: of course we can certainly have a conversation with an 271 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: echo borg. How often, though, do you meet a person 272 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: who really loves fruit trees? That's true, I love fruit trees. 273 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: I hate fruit trees. But how can you hate fruit 274 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: trees because I'm not a robot? What would you do 275 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: if you found a turtle the turtles on its back? 276 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: Why aren't you turning him over? Joe? But what what? 277 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: What I'll tell you about my mother? Okay? Sorry? So 278 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: but anyway, A lawyer goes on to say, quote, what 279 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: bothers me about this trend? And he's talking about this 280 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: AI media trend. However, is that by allowing artificial intelligence 281 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: to reshape our concept of personhood, we're leaving ourselves opened 282 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: to the flip side. We think of people more and 283 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: more as computers, just as we think of computers as people, 284 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: and I think there might be something to that, actually, 285 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: that the idea of AI not only sort of lifts 286 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: computers up, but in a certain way, at least emotionally, 287 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: kind of lowers humans down. Yeah. And we we've discussed this, 288 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: I feel recently on the show too, about how just 289 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: even though we we have this increasingly pervasive model of 290 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: our own cognitive performance as being essentially a program, we 291 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: think about processing things, we think about visual input of data, 292 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: we think about crunching the numbers. Uh, and in various 293 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: other models we use technology g to inform our understanding 294 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,239 Speaker 1: of how our brains are working. And those are just 295 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: those are just metaphors really, and but the underlying processes 296 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: are not really comparable to the computers that we have today. 297 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: It would be we could maybe compare them to an 298 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: advanced computer will haveing in the future, some sort of 299 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: maybe um you know, um advanced machine maybe. Yeah. Yeah, 300 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: I think that's true. Uh, They're they're very much metaphors. 301 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that they're not useful metaphors. But 302 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:32,959 Speaker 1: I do think I want to take what Landing are 303 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: saying seriously here, because I think he has a point Anyway, 304 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: he goes on when he's going to get to the singularity, 305 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: so he says, you know, engineers are humans with human desires, 306 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: even though they may be advocating this sort of like 307 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: dehumanized technological ideology or view of intelligence in personhood in 308 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: the world, and they've got the same desires that lead 309 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: us to create and follow religions. So this sort of 310 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: leads them to wrap their technological ideologies up into parallels 311 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: of religious thinking. And he and according to Lannier, he 312 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 1: thinks the concept of the singularity is a religion expressed 313 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: through engineering culture. And he points out if this religion entails, 314 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: you know, essentially scatological beliefs that imply that most people, basically, 315 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: I would say, anybody not working in information theory, artificial intelligence, 316 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: or robotics, if pretty much anybody outside those fields can 317 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: basically just sit and wait for imminent salvation or destruction 318 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: via the machines. And if inadvertent devaluation of persons by 319 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: overstating analogies between persons and computers takes place, it can 320 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: certainly exacerbate tensions between traditional religions and modernity, and it 321 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: can be a destructive and demoralizing force in itself. So anyway, 322 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: he ends by saying technology best serves humanity when we 323 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: resist the urge to turn it into a religious ideology. Yeah, 324 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: because otherwise you ended up in a situation where you're like, 325 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: I could, I could exercise and eat right, But singularities 326 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: come in. Singularities gonna work that out, or you might think, 327 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: I'm not even gonna bother to write the Great American novel, 328 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: because Great American Novel bought thirty seven oh five. It's 329 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: gonna write the Great American novel. It's gonna write one 330 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: a day, one every hour. Yeah. I I could work 331 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: hard to achieve peace in world civilization, but maybe the 332 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: Ai'll sort it all out for this or just kill 333 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: us all. I mean, either one. It's sort of a demoralizing, 334 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: de motivating belief, which of course has obvious parallels with 335 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: you know, more apocalyptic near future um religious movements that 336 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: said the end time is coming. So what does it 337 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: matter giving your money now? Certainly? Yeah, what whether it's 338 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: a secular or you know, supernatural or not supernatural in nature? 339 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: If you've got beliefs about a powerful force that comes 340 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: in and intervenes and makes all of our actions obsolete 341 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: either either way it comes from. Uh that seems like 342 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: it can have a de motivating force on the way 343 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: you live your life. But I want to say one 344 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: more thing Linear says about the Singularity that I think 345 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: is interesting. Uh So, I listened to a podcast that 346 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: was an interview with Linear and and he says, quote, 347 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: the difference between a religious fanatic and a religious non 348 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: fanatic is in the certainty of the imminent timing of 349 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: whatever their scatan is, you know, whatever their end of 350 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: days is. It's when you believe that you know when 351 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: it's happening and it's soon that you really turn into 352 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: a nutcase and you do harm to yourself and others. 353 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: In my mind, the Singularity movement is sort of doing that. 354 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: And I think I see what he's saying there, because 355 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: he sort of qualifies saying that if you mean, in 356 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,719 Speaker 1: the very long term view, humanity will make some phase 357 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 1: transition and it has something to do with information technology 358 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: that's not necessarily crazy or harmful. You know, you might say, 359 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: who knows, over the next few thousands of years, some 360 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: somehow humanity might change itself due to computers and the 361 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: Internet and stuff like that. But the notion that it's 362 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: going to happen in twenty years or something is destructive 363 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: and a sign of fanaticism, according to him, And I 364 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,439 Speaker 1: think that that idea makes sense to me too. Well, 365 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: in large part, you could say, you're you're setting yourself 366 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: up for disappointment, You're setting yourself up to fail right, 367 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,959 Speaker 1: that you're going to reach that point when the second 368 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: Coming is going to happen, when the Singularity is going 369 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: to happen, and it doesn't happen, and then how do 370 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: you feel about the world. Then how do you approach 371 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: the near and long term future? Well, I think that 372 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: is definitely something we should talk about in just a moment. 373 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: But I want to finish up on the Singularity with 374 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: one or two more things. First of all, I want 375 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: to go back and defend against that by saying, there 376 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: are also people who say, you know, look, if we're 377 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: worried about the Ai Ragnarok uh saying that AI is 378 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: going to come in and destroy us, all we do 379 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: need to be thinking about it now. Even if it's 380 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: not going to happen soon. Just the possibility that it 381 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: might happen soon means that we need to be preparing immediately. 382 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 1: I can see the wisdom in that too. I mean, 383 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's Uh. At the risk of sounding 384 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: fascil I, I see both sides. Yeah, well, I mean, certainly, uh, 385 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 1: if the iceberg is out there, we want to know 386 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: how not to run the ship into it. But then again, 387 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: but what if the iceberg is a superhuman robot that 388 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: you don't even know whether it could possibly exist or not. Well, 389 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: that's the kind of thinking that it enables humanity time 390 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: and time again to not actually, you know, deal with 391 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: the problems that are facing them, to just say, ah, 392 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: it might not even be real. So I don't know. 393 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:49,959 Speaker 1: The jury is still out on the science there. So 394 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: I want to offer one more thing, the impossible defense 395 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: of singularity thinking. I found a short video on YouTube 396 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: where somebody in a crowd asks Ray Kurzweil himself, the 397 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: guy who said it's going to happen if the Singularity 398 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: is a religion, and Kerswill responds that. He says, essentially, 399 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: it does provide some of the same things that religion 400 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: traditionally provided, like a means to forestall death. That's worth 401 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: pointing out. But it's also not a religion inherently because 402 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: it's based on scientific and technological prediction, and he said, quote, 403 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't start from rapture. He also says, quote, religion 404 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: emerged in pre scientific times. To call it a religion 405 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: is to say that it's pre scientific or unscientific. And 406 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: I think, you know, maybe you're maybe not Like I 407 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: definitely do sense that some people who call the Singularity 408 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: a religion, because Landing is not the only one who 409 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 1: said this, this is a thing people say in criticism 410 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 1: of it. I think some people are merely being pejorative. 411 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: You've noticed that if you ever heard anybody call something 412 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: that's not a religion a religion, it's an insult. And 413 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: that interesting, like, uh that political? Can it that you 414 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: agree with Greg Stillson Man? You all you Greg Stilson 415 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: supporters are like a religion that's never a positive thing? Yeah? Yeah, 416 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: I mean I find myself doing that less and less 417 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: because I feel like I can have It's just me personally, 418 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: But I think there are plenty of things that I 419 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: can say, Oh, I have kind of a religious interest 420 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: in this, not to say that I am you know 421 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 1: that it's some sort of like fanatical, like unrealistic level 422 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: of enthusiasm for it, but like I I kind of 423 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: measure it's like to the amount of my person, the 424 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: amount of my identity, uh, that I pour into the topics. 425 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: So I would say that I have religious or semi 426 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 1: religious enthusiasm for things like science, for certain uh, for 427 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: certain fictional worlds and ideas. Um. Well, Robert, if I 428 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: may compliment you, I think that's a sign of broad 429 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: minded thinking. I mean, no, I think both religious and 430 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: non religious people. I don't think this is really limited 431 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: to people who think religion is in some way a 432 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: bad thing. But I think generally both religious and non 433 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: religious people insult a thing that's not explicitly a religion 434 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: by calling it a religion. Yeah, I would agree with that, yes, 435 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: but yeah, in your sense, it doesn't have to be. 436 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 1: I mean, in some ways we could just observe, like, okay, 437 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: not assuming that calling something a religion is a bad thing. Uh. 438 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: In what ways is the Singularity like a religion? Well, 439 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: I think it does have a lot of similarities. It 440 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 1: does seem to offer a means to forestall death. It 441 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: does seem to offer uh, potentially both apocalyptic and utopian 442 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: eschatological visions. It does seem to rely I don't know 443 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: if I would say it relies on faith in the 444 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: same way that many supernatural beliefs do. But it does 445 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: seem to sort of ask you to to imagine the 446 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 1: possibility that things that we've never seen before are going 447 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: to happen. You know, we've never seen superhuman artificial intelligence before. 448 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 1: There's no evidence that that can in principle exist. We 449 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: but we also just don't know that it couldn't. So 450 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: it's just like maybe maybe not all right, So this 451 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 1: seems like a good place to bring it back around 452 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: to trans humanism and rapture the the idea that there 453 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: are all these similarities between the two things, there are 454 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: certain conflicts between these two ideas, and then at the 455 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: very end here we may have just a little fun 456 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: thinking about how the two crash into each other. Okay, 457 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: tell me, because here's one thing I've noticed, I think, 458 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: and I haven't seen any data to back this episode. 459 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: This is just purely anecdotal experience. In my experience, people 460 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: who identify with trans humanism or belief in the singularity 461 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: are overwhelmingly atheist or agnostic, non traditionally religious people. Yes, 462 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: you do see a great deal of that. However, it 463 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: is worth pointing out that again they have at least 464 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: two organizations. You have the Mormon Transhumanist Association, that's the 465 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: world's largest advocacy network work really yeah, for the ethical 466 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: use of technology and religion to expand human abilities. That's 467 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: they're they're from their their talking points. Then you also 468 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: have the Christian trans Humanist Association, and um, you know, 469 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: each one has their own sort of set of guidelines 470 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: and all. Um. Uh, and I could, I could certainly 471 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: roll through a lot of this, but for instance, um, 472 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,719 Speaker 1: that the Mormon trans Humanist Association has this idea that 473 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: they push of a transfigurism. They said transfigure they say, 474 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: transfigurism is religious trans humanism exemplified by syncretization of Mormonism 475 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: and trans humanism. Yeah. Um. And then meanwhile, the Christian 476 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: trans Humanist Association, one of their tenants is that God's 477 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: mission involves the transformation and renewal of creation, including humanity, 478 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: and that we are called by Christ to participate in 479 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: that mission working against illness, hunger, oppression, in justice, and death. Uh. Well, yeah, 480 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: I mean you could look at it that way. For 481 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 1: some reason, the idea of transforming the human animal, it's 482 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: one of those things that I I don't see in 483 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: any way that it violates any tenants I recognize of Christianity, 484 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: but it seems just sort of like, esthetically in affront 485 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: to traditional religious thinking. It's a lot of what we've 486 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 1: talked about in our you know, UH Techno Religion episodes 487 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 1: that we did earlier, and you could say that this 488 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: episode is in many ways a sequel to those, or 489 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: it's in that spirit. But in the Techno Religion episodes, 490 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: we talked about how religious thinking seems most encouraged by 491 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: a traditional technological atmosphere, and when you bring computers and 492 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: iPhones and stuff, it just does seem profane in some way. 493 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: And there's nothing in the Bible or in any religious 494 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: text I know of that says thou shalt not bring 495 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: a computer into a worship service. But you know, it 496 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: just doesn't feel very sacred. It doesn't feel right. Now. 497 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: Going back to the the idea of sort of Christian 498 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: transhumanist ideas that James J. Hughes paper that I'm antioned earlier, 499 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: Um he calls uh up a quote from a fourteen 500 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: eighties six UH work by Pico Della Mirandola, who was 501 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: a Christian humanist and in his orritation on the dignity 502 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: of Man wrote quote, to you has granted the power 503 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: of degrading yourself into the lower forms of life, the beasts, 504 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: or to you as granted the power contained in your 505 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: intellect and judgment to be reborn into the higher forms 506 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: the divine um. And and and he wrote other other 507 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: statements as well that kind of backed up this kind of, 508 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: you know, way pre humanist notion of how one might 509 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: improve the expression of human life. Well. Yeah, I mean, if, 510 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: for example, Jesus said take all you have and give 511 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: to the poor, then wouldn't the Christian who thinks that 512 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: we can achieve abundance through technology be best served by 513 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: working on technology that will eliminate all scarcity and bring 514 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: great resources to everyone. Yeah, it seems like you would 515 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: be in favor of any trans humanist idea that does 516 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: not attempt to interfere with God's plan for humanity. Um, so, 517 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: I guess it depends on what you think that plan is. 518 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: Right now, this is where we get into an interesting idea, 519 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: and this is kind of where uh okay, So, first 520 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: of all, you see a lot of especially the conspiracy 521 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: theorist of the the Christian conspiracy theorist area of the Internet. 522 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: You see a lot of mashing up of trans humanist 523 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: ideas with with the bad guys in in a book 524 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: of Revelations. Yeah, remember how I mentioned the ones who 525 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: get to rule with Christ and the millennium are those 526 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: who have not taken the mark of the beast and 527 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: many and what is the mark of the beast that 528 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: I've seen various interpretations where they say, oh, the mark 529 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: of the beast is trans humanism, Like to become trans 530 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: human is to take the mark of the beast, and 531 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: therefore only sort of uh, you know, non augmented humans 532 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: are going to be part of this model. There have 533 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: been many visions of the mark of the Beast in 534 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: Christian literature that thought that it was going to be 535 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,479 Speaker 1: some sort of biometric verification. So imagine that you replace 536 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: your credit card with a barcode or a chip in 537 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: your arm or your head or your hand or something 538 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: like that that you can use to pay for groceries 539 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,239 Speaker 1: or something like that, just by scanning your body. A 540 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: lot of people have said, well, something like this is 541 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: coming and that's got to be it. That's the mark 542 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: of the beast. And then the Antichrist is perhaps the 543 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: AI write this post singularity artificial intelligence that that we're 544 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: investing all of our our faith and energy into. And 545 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: I put it, this is an interesting idea too. I 546 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: have seen arguments to say that the Illuminati or the 547 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: Anti Christ or the Illuminati and the inn of Christ, 548 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: however you want to factor those two bad guy factions together, 549 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: they are going to create a fake rapture in order 550 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: to trick the faithful into thinking that the rapture has 551 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: already occurred and they were left out, thus like dismantling 552 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: their faith a bit. That is an awesome conspiracy theory. 553 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: It is um and that's like the mother of them all. Yeah. 554 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: I found some some stuff online about it, dating back 555 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: from around two thousand UM and they were weirdly propping 556 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: up some of this by pointing to a Technology Review 557 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: article about the about editing live video, editing people out 558 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: of live video. Uh. The idea being here that through 559 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: mass media consumption, you could fake the rapture of individuals 560 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: and and if I may, I'm thinking if the Illuminatis 561 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: involved in this, you could then disappear like famous a 562 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: moral individuals and say, hey check out this, this particular 563 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: awful celebrity just got raptured. You didn't clearly you should 564 00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: abandon all of your faith. That is that, as mighty 565 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: sinister Robert, Or is it though? Because Okay, so if 566 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: and I'm playing with the ideas here and having some 567 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: fun with the ideas. But if the Antichrist is an 568 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, could it be a benevolent artificial intelligence that 569 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: has realized, Hey, if the right off, if the end 570 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: times come, that's bad for all these humans that I'm protecting. 571 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: What can I, as an all powerful AI do in 572 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: human society to prevent the end times from coming? Does 573 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: that mean faking the rapture and perhaps forestalling the rapture? Well, 574 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: I know many Christians believe that the Antichrist will come 575 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: in the name of peace, and that is weird. You 576 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: would end up in a scenario where you would say, no, 577 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: peace is bad because we actually need all that tribulation 578 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: to come so that the good guys can ultimately win, 579 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: even though it's going to mean a lot of a 580 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: lot of suffering. Okay, we've gotten very, very deep into 581 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: the both secular and religious theology of the end here, 582 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: so maybe we should pull back. Are you ready to 583 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: pull back? Full back? Let's pull back to the real 584 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,959 Speaker 1: world and and look at a few examples of what 585 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: happens when our our scatons, when our spiritual in times, 586 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: utopias or apocalypse is don't come about as predicted. So 587 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: there have been so many religious predictions of the end 588 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: times that have failed. There is no way we can 589 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: even begin to list them. I would recommend you go 590 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: to Wikipedia. Here's a great Wikipedia page, uh called list 591 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: of dates predicted for apocalyptic events. There are just hundreds, 592 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: uh and it's it's really interesting. One of my favorites 593 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: is the leader of the or one of the leaders 594 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: of the monster rebellion, the Anabaptist rebellion in Prussia, Jan Matthias. 595 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 1: He had a good end times prediction that didn't turn 596 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: out good for him, and I think he ended up mutilated. 597 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: And yeah, anyway, things things don't tend to well, actually 598 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: not tend to Why am I hedging? No one who 599 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: has ever predicted the end of the world has turned 600 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: out to be correct that that is a true statement. 601 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 1: Inevitably these predictions fail. And then what happens when they fail, 602 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: Because if you're the kind of individual who's thrown out 603 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: these these predictions, you tend to have there tend to 604 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: be people listening to you reading your word, gathering around you, 605 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: maybe giving you all of their money and living in 606 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: a barn with you, or in a bunker, or planning 607 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: for spaceships to come and steal you away so you 608 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: can avoid massive floods. Um. And then how do you 609 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: readjust well, there's a There was a famous book came 610 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: out from psychologist Leon Festinger titled Win Prophecy Fails. And 611 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: this is this was an important work. He and his 612 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: colleagues studied the Seekers, a religious group that believed a 613 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 1: massive flood would wipe out the West coast uh and 614 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: and the founders said that beings from the planet Clarion 615 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: were communicating to her through automatic writing. Uh. And then 616 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: the followers were banning their jobs or possessions, their spouses 617 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,720 Speaker 1: to wait on the flying saucers that would rescue them. Wow. 618 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: And then nothing happened. So so they all they all 619 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: figured they were wrong and went home right. No, no, no, 620 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: And and this is something we can sort of see. 621 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: I guess we can look for models of this in 622 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: our own lives on lesser with with lesser um lesser steaks. 623 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: One example that instantly comes to mind, and we see 624 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: a lot of this in sort of geek culture, and 625 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: that is what happens from that movie that you're super 626 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: excited about it doesn't get that great of reviews. How 627 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: do you respond. Do you say, uh, well maybe it's 628 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: not going to be that good, or you see it 629 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: and you think, okay, well I agree with the critics 630 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: and it wasn't that good. Or do you do do 631 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: you double down? Oh? Many will double down, yes, depending 632 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: on I think a lot of times it's based on 633 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: how much you've invested in the movie going into it. 634 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,720 Speaker 1: So if there's a movie you hoped would be good, 635 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: but you thought about it a couple of times before 636 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 1: it came out, and then you see the reviews aren't good, 637 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: Oh that's disappointing. If it's a movie you've been talking 638 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: about with your friends every single day up until it 639 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: comes out, and then the reviews aren't good, you're like, 640 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: well they gotta be wrong. Now it's sunk cost. Now, obviously, 641 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: with films, you can simply argue, well, hey, I enjoyed it, 642 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,919 Speaker 1: so I don't care. Uh, certainly, I'm I'm the type 643 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: of person who enjoys many bad movies, and I you know, 644 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna apologize about, say, liking Chronicles a riddic. 645 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: It's a it's a bad movie. I'm not gonna argue 646 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: it's good, but but it certainly was enjoyable. Robert, I 647 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 1: have a question for you. You seem like maybe the 648 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,959 Speaker 1: right guy for this. Were you one of the few 649 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: people who liked on Lee's Hulk. Yeah, well, I enjoyed 650 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 1: it at the time. I didn't like love it, but 651 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: I was like, that's the Hulk. He's holking it up there. Yeah. 652 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: I like the follow up more, but I don't think. 653 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: I don't think people were in love with that one. 654 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: Like that one, even though it was an early Marvel 655 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: Cinematic Universe movement, the one with Edward Norton. Yeah, yeah, 656 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: I feel like I enjoyed that seemed kind of forgettable. Yeah, 657 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: that one the the the those who are a member 658 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: of the religion of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, they do 659 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: not bring that particular book of the Marvel Cinematic Bible 660 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 1: up that much. It is the it is the problematic 661 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: chapter in the scripture. It's like Second Chronicles. People just 662 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,720 Speaker 1: don't quote from it a whole lot. Yeah, but anyway, 663 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: I'm getting a little off off subject here. Essentially, Festing 664 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: festing or entered into this with the mindset that people 665 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,959 Speaker 1: would need to resolve cognitive dissonance. They can't just argue, hey, 666 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: I know that this, I know that my beliefs are crappy, 667 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: but I enjoy them. No, your beliefs were based along 668 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 1: the lines that a flood would come and you'd be 669 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: on a UFO right now, and you are not. So 670 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: how do you deal with that? He said that they 671 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: doubled down on their beliefs and recruitment efforts, but in 672 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: reality some leave, but the vast majority um experience little 673 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: cognitive dissidents, and so they make only minor adjustments to 674 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: their beliefs. So it ends up having like really, it 675 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,919 Speaker 1: doesn't have that great an effect. Like the failures come 676 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: and you can always this is the key part. You 677 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: can always attribute that failed prophecy to human slip ups. Right. Well, 678 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,879 Speaker 1: I mean, so let's say you predict that the Singularity 679 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: is going to come in a certain year and you 680 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: get there and nothing happens. Well, I mean you could 681 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: always say, well, hold on, now, this doesn't challenge in 682 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: any way the principle that the Singularity is coming and 683 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: it's coming soon. It's just I can explain this. We 684 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 1: had a we had a big recession in the economy 685 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 1: several years back, and that cut way down on funding 686 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 1: for universities and corporations that are studying machine learning and 687 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, and so progress just got slowed by some 688 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: external events that aren't, you know, my predictions basically sound. 689 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: We just had a few slip ups that happened. We 690 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: didn't realize Pokemon Go would be such as success and 691 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,799 Speaker 1: distract everybody and and decrease productivity. Right, so, and yeah, 692 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: you can. You can make those arguments about about singularity. 693 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: You can make those those arguments about any kind of 694 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: social utopian idea. You can make excuses for anything. Yeah, 695 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 1: I mean, the the typical problem with utopian cults is 696 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 1: it's almost always the same the the utopian leader says 697 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: this is the way we're gonna make life better for 698 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 1: for you and all the followers, and then there's some 699 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,360 Speaker 1: sort of sex scandal, there's some sort of power disruption, 700 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: something goes wrong, and you can always say, well, no, 701 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: they just were the wrong vessel for the message. Well, 702 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 1: this also works for non technological but secular utopias. Imagine 703 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: the way people think about the implementation of communist utopia. Yeah, 704 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: you know, so you create a Marxist government. Uh. And 705 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about you know, socialist democracy or whatever. 706 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: But it's so, you know, the real utopian vision, like 707 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna create a perfect workers paradise um and and 708 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 1: it kind of fails or I mean, I guess it's 709 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: always arguable, but I think it's pretty hard to say, 710 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: look at the Soviet Union or something and say that 711 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: worked great. But you can always argue, well, they did, 712 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 1: they just didn't do it right. It's not it's not 713 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: a problem with the principle. They're just they weren't real 714 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,799 Speaker 1: communists or something. Yeah, they were the they were the 715 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 1: the fake Christ as opposed to the actual cast. They 716 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 1: were antichristis Yeah, there's nothing wrong with my the principle 717 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 1: behind my my end times prediction. I just I made 718 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: I made errors. The math is wrong, I I translated 719 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 1: the Golden Tablets incorrectly, etcetera. So that seems to be 720 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: the basic time timeline, the basic outcome for any kind 721 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 1: of failed prophecy, be it you know, the value of 722 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 1: a particular superhero movie or the outcome of a of 723 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,400 Speaker 1: an apocalyptic prophecy. Robert I want to ask you about 724 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 1: one weird specific example. So we've mentioned the idea of 725 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: singularity that of course hasn't been disproven yet, but you know, 726 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 1: we we can imagine and how it could be adjusted 727 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 1: if it were disproven. We've talked about Marxist supposed to utopias, 728 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: but I wonder if you could look at the Internet 729 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,399 Speaker 1: as a failed secular utopia, because if you go back 730 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: to the early day, you know, dot com bubble type 731 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 1: days where people are talking about what's possible with the Internet, 732 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,399 Speaker 1: there is a lot of hyperbolic positive language where people 733 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: are talking in incredibly grandiose terms about the Internet almost 734 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: as a type of Utopia's going to open all these 735 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: doors and connect people all over the world for limitless 736 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 1: sharing of ideas and potential, the information super highway. We're 737 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: you know, we're all going to be talking and sharing 738 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,840 Speaker 1: ideas and it's it's just gonna be great. And I 739 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:48,479 Speaker 1: don't know, look at the your Facebook feed today. Could 740 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: you argue that the Internet is a failed secular utopia 741 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,240 Speaker 1: if you if you look at its goals as purely utopian, 742 00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: I think I think very much, though, like I don't 743 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,360 Speaker 1: think the Inner Net. Certainly, the Internet has has connected 744 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,280 Speaker 1: us more. It's allowed for a great deal of sharing 745 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 1: and UH and informational availability. But on the other hand, 746 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: it also allows you to simply, you know, flock to 747 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 1: people who share your own set of beliefs, making it 748 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: easier to find UH like minded individuals. Both for both 749 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 1: in the positive and in the negative sense, You've been 750 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 1: able allows us to UH to put on a mask 751 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: UH and lose their identity and and lash out with 752 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,320 Speaker 1: the most horrible you know, UH in the most horrible 753 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,799 Speaker 1: ways and complete strangers. I mean, I don't have to 754 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 1: tell anybody this. You're all on the internet. You know that. 755 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: You know how it all plays out. It's more of 756 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: just an expression and in various ways apple amplification of 757 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,439 Speaker 1: who we are as opposed to a refinement of who 758 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: we are. And that always the way you can look 759 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,359 Speaker 1: at that as all utopias. Somehow, all utopias end up 760 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: being very human. Yeah, Like, we're still going to express 761 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,360 Speaker 1: as human no matter what sort of social structure you 762 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,759 Speaker 1: try and strain us through, no matter what kind of 763 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 1: technological change you strain us through, We're going to come 764 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 1: out as the same animal. And I think that's inherently 765 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: why there is the appeal of these superhuman forces, like 766 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:20,279 Speaker 1: either a supernatural religious force God or or you know, 767 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: the gods of any religion coming into set things right 768 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,280 Speaker 1: via some kind of power that transcends what we're capable 769 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: of naturally, or a superhuman artificial intelligence, powerful machines that 770 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,839 Speaker 1: are smarter than we are and no better than us 771 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: and can improve us in ways that we don't seem 772 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,960 Speaker 1: to be capable of via our natural experimentation with social behavior. Yeah, 773 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: so enter the AI, inter Christ, enter the Bodhisatva of 774 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,000 Speaker 1: the future. Yeah, whatever it takes for something from the 775 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:52,959 Speaker 1: outside to step in and shake us into the right form. 776 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 1: All right. So there you have it, the rapture, the singularity, uh, 777 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,239 Speaker 1: trans humanism. We threw out a lot of ideas year 778 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,879 Speaker 1: and moved them around on the board, had some fun 779 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,800 Speaker 1: with them, hopefully, had some some thoughtful conversation about it. 780 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:07,840 Speaker 1: And I'm sure a lot of you have some feedback 781 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 1: as well, your own thoughts on these topics. And I 782 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,359 Speaker 1: and I do want to ask everyone out there if 783 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: there was some sort of a Christian rapture, what if 784 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: there was a way to create a rapture proof suit? 785 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: Oh wow, superhuman technology versus superhuman uh supernatural power. Yeah, 786 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: I mean the the ai Antichrist that I was going 787 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 1: on about earlier. Perhaps they might come up with some 788 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 1: sort of shielding to try and prevent you know, souls 789 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,359 Speaker 1: from being sucked up into the into the into the 790 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: outer void. And then on the other hand, perhaps someone 791 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,919 Speaker 1: might want to you know, even a faithful individual might say, 792 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 1: actually I need to stay behind. I want to document it. 793 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,759 Speaker 1: Or maybe I I love the some people in my 794 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,880 Speaker 1: life too much who are not believers, or I just 795 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:53,879 Speaker 1: want to, you know, make sure I get to work 796 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,280 Speaker 1: on time. The next day. I better wear a rapture 797 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: proof suit that will contain my myself and keep nice. 798 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,040 Speaker 1: You know almost why wearing uh like weighted boots to 799 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,799 Speaker 1: keep from just rising above the ground. Robert, you never 800 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,200 Speaker 1: cease to amaze me. Oh well, thank you, Joe. If 801 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,400 Speaker 1: you try, uh so anyway, wrap your proof suits. What 802 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:12,759 Speaker 1: do you think about that? You can find us at 803 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 1: the stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. You can 804 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 1: reach out to us on Facebook and Twitter a few 805 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:18,799 Speaker 1: other social media accounts as well. You'll find links to 806 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: those at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com and 807 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: if you want to email us. As always, you can 808 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,360 Speaker 1: write to us at blow the Mind at how stuff 809 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of 810 00:46:37,760 --> 00:47:00,319 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot Com. Four