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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome in your boy Doug Gottlieb here. Thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for downloading and subscribing and rating and telling your

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Speaker 1: friends about the All Ball podcast. Uh, the numbers have

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Speaker 1: been awesome, by the way, Like we're talking over a

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand downloads, and uh, we're gonna keep you know,

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Speaker 1: just keep sending tweets to me at Gottlieb Show and

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Speaker 1: making reviews of it and if you have suggestions, people

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Speaker 1: who want to hear things you like, things you don't like. Right, Look,

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Speaker 1: you're listening to this pod. I'm kind of doing it

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Speaker 1: as we go, trying to figure stuff out, and I

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Speaker 1: really appreciate you listening. This one's a fun one. Fun

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Speaker 1: because I feel like I feel like there's people in

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Speaker 1: coaching that I've gotten to know that I really like,

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Speaker 1: and I knew them kind of way back when, and

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Speaker 1: I watched them evolved and I watched them become a

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Speaker 1: head coach and I've they've gone up, they've gone down, whatever.

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Speaker 1: And um, Chris Mooney I met. I have friends, you know,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know if he downloads the podcast. My

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Speaker 1: boy Darren Height played at Princeton and that was kind

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Speaker 1: of my first in to the Princeton basketball family. And

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you a quick story because and this is true,

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Speaker 1: it's one of the great stories the history of my father.

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Speaker 1: So my dad, Bob Gotle passed away obviously five years ago.

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Speaker 1: I talked about him some in the pod, and um,

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Speaker 1: Darren was a great student at Modern Day. We played together,

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Speaker 1: I think since like fourth fifth grade, and Darren was

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Speaker 1: like a six five Swiss army knife, could do everything.

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Speaker 1: He went to Modern Day and you know, Modern Day

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Speaker 1: they had just star after star after star after stars.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know if he averaged six seven points

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Speaker 1: a game of monter Day, but he was. I remember

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Speaker 1: moder Day used to have you guys remember this on

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Speaker 1: shooting shirts right where they would they had nicknames, and

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Speaker 1: Darren Heights nickname I think was the Man of a

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Speaker 1: thousand Pivots. I think I'll have to text him to

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Speaker 1: to figure figure out if that's what it was. Anyway, Um,

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Speaker 1: so Darren didn't have I don't think scholarship offers coming

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Speaker 1: out of high school, and he wanted to go to

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Speaker 1: the Ivy League and play, want to play at Princeton.

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Speaker 1: Prince at the time was them and Penn were the

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Speaker 1: premier teams. In the Ivy League. So he didn't get

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Speaker 1: into Princeton on his like early acceptance. Maybe he was

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Speaker 1: wait listed. So my dad calls Pete Krel. He's like, Pete,

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Speaker 1: you gotta get out here. You gotta see his kid. Darren. Hi,

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Speaker 1: he's perfect for what you do. So this is the spring,

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Speaker 1: and Petrol comes and he watches him work out at

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Speaker 1: Modern Day and he's like, he's okay. So the next

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Speaker 1: day we played in a tournament at cal State Domingus Hills.

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Speaker 1: That keep mind, this is back in the day when

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Speaker 1: and maybe this was in the fall. I don't remember anyway,

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Speaker 1: I think it was in the spring. But this is

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Speaker 1: back in the day when you all the all the

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Speaker 1: weekend tournaments. We're at cal State Domingus Hills, run by

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Speaker 1: the pumps. So we we kind of we have a plan.

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Speaker 1: Pete Creel is coming, He's coming to see Darren. Everybody

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Speaker 1: else kind of had a scholarship or wasn't playing for

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Speaker 1: one specific coach. Every play we run, we're gonna run

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Speaker 1: for Darren. Because the thing about Darren was like, look,

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Speaker 1: if you've averaged five or six a game in high school,

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Speaker 1: how do we know you can score? How do we

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Speaker 1: know if you can play, whereas the argument for mod

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Speaker 1: today guys is like, look, if Darren would have gone

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Speaker 1: to any other high school in Orange County, he would

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Speaker 1: have been a feature guy, would have averaged, you know,

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Speaker 1: fifteen twenty points a game. He could really play, So

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Speaker 1: we run any of every play for him. I think

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Speaker 1: he had like thirty five thirty six points. There's films

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Speaker 1: somewhere available. Um in the first three quarters, so he

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Speaker 1: takes himself out of the game, and my dad had

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Speaker 1: the old rule where if you take yourself out and

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Speaker 1: put yourself back in. He was tired. He took himself

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Speaker 1: out of the game. So somewhere in the fourth quarter

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Speaker 1: he tries to check back in. So we we run

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Speaker 1: every play for Darren height in the first half, first

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Speaker 1: three quarters, he checks himself out of the game, comes

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Speaker 1: over the bench and you obviously Pete Creole and his

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Speaker 1: staff were watching. He sits down and early in the

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Speaker 1: four a quarter he goes to check himself back into

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Speaker 1: the game and my dad says, what are you doing.

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Speaker 1: It's like, well, we have a rule or if I

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Speaker 1: take myself out, I can put myself back in the game.

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Speaker 1: And my dad turns to Darren says, sit Down. It's like,

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Speaker 1: why I'm playing great, sit Down? You're going to Princeton.

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Speaker 1: So sure enough he got into Princeton and the rest

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Speaker 1: is kind of history. If you go back and watch

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Speaker 1: the nineties six first n C A tournament win for

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Speaker 1: Princeton with Pete kill Um, there's a blonde haired, kind

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Speaker 1: of rather large nosed. Darren knows he has a big nose.

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Speaker 1: He's great dude. Anyway, guy waving the towel, that's Darren

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Speaker 1: heights well boy. Anyway, So I kind of gotten doctorated

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Speaker 1: to Princeton basketball there um. I played with the Maccabi

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Speaker 1: team with Jesse Rosenfeld, was a center from Princeton. A

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Speaker 1: couple of years later playing in Israel. You know, like

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Speaker 1: I knew some of those guys well. I started covering

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Speaker 1: Air Force and got to know Chris Mooney, Jeff Bezdelic,

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Speaker 1: not as much Joe Scott. Uh, Joe, Joe is an

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Speaker 1: interesting catman. I thought that thing would have worked when

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Speaker 1: he coached at Princeton because it worked so well when

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Speaker 1: he was an Air Force. Anyway, I find Chris's story fascinating.

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Speaker 1: His mom died when he was just a teenager. His

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Speaker 1: dad was a Greyhound bus driver and sometimes he would

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Speaker 1: ride with his dad, I think, to Atlantic City and back.

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Speaker 1: We'll get get to his story. But from that, a

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Speaker 1: guy who didn't really have a true basketball background, he

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Speaker 1: became like a basketball junkie and end up becoming a

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Speaker 1: high school coach, then a Division three coach, then an

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Speaker 1: assistant air Force and ultimately the head coach air Force.

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Speaker 1: Now the head coach at Richmond for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and they have a very good team this year. We'll

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Speaker 1: get to him in a second. Chris Mooney is a

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Speaker 1: good friend, a great guy, awesome accent, and just a

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Speaker 1: really interesting tale of his life which took us up

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Speaker 1: to this year and this team. Before we get to that,

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Speaker 1: quick thought on the Reggie Jackson trade, it's interesting, if

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Speaker 1: you're old enough, you're like Reggie Jackson, you know, the

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Speaker 1: basketball Reggie Jackson. So Reggie Jackson wasn't traded. He was

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Speaker 1: bought out by the Detroit Pistons. He signs with the

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Speaker 1: l A Clippers, and the immediate reaction of a lot

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Speaker 1: of people on social media and even the media is

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Speaker 1: Clippers got another one that the Lakers wanted, and that's look,

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Speaker 1: did the Lakers want Darren Carlson. Yes, Darren Carlinson was

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Speaker 1: the guy that they had earmarked to be their starting

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Speaker 1: point guard. Is a very good shooter, very good defenders

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Speaker 1: from l A and Darren Carllison only retired early, but

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Speaker 1: then they thought he was coming when he was when

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Speaker 1: he didn't come out of retirement around the trade deadline.

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Speaker 1: And I'm guessing they're still gonna have conversations trying to

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Speaker 1: talk him out of retirement. But they didn't want Reggie Jackson.

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Speaker 1: And some of this just comes down to simply he's

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Speaker 1: he's wrapped by Aaron Mintz. Aaron mints is the agent

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Speaker 1: for Julius Randall. Julius Randall didn't get a contract off

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Speaker 1: from from the Lakers after having a good year and

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Speaker 1: he's better. There's just like a lot of bitterness over

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Speaker 1: the Julius Randall deal. And with that mind um, Rob

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Speaker 1: Plinko didn't call them, and he didn't call Rob Polinka.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't that's not really the case now. The other

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Speaker 1: issue with the Clippers, and this is gonna be interesting

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Speaker 1: to see. You can only play five guys and when

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Speaker 1: you have a lot of guys where there's not a

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Speaker 1: lot of differentiation between him because Reddy Jackson is not

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Speaker 1: a bad player. I think he's a really good player.

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Speaker 1: Now he struggled to be not have his own team

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Speaker 1: when he's in Oklahoma City. He had his own team

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Speaker 1: in Detroit, and obviously like this is what. This is

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Speaker 1: what a bench guy looks like, this is what. Let

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Speaker 1: me pick whatever great six man you you have, Lou

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Speaker 1: Williams a great sixth man, or um Jamal Crawford, like

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Speaker 1: the six man Jamal Crawford. When Jamal Crawford is a

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Speaker 1: starting point guard, his teams weren't great. He put Jamal

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Speaker 1: Crawford in his career as a six man, he was awesome.

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Speaker 1: That's that's Reggie Jackson in Detroit had a game, a

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Speaker 1: bunch of money and they never went to the playoffs.

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Speaker 1: Why because Reggie Jackson's a great six man or seventh man,

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Speaker 1: he's not a starter. And now he's a little bit older,

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Speaker 1: how does he handle coming out the bench? More than anything,

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Speaker 1: for the Clippers, do they have too many guys, too

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Speaker 1: many egos? And I'll tell you this that I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure the Lakers don't like him on that team because

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Speaker 1: it keeps patch if he's on the court. Patrick Beverley

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Speaker 1: Landry Shammit or Lou Williams are on the court, and

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Speaker 1: they don't believe that he's as good a fit for

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Speaker 1: that team as the other three are. The truth is

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Speaker 1: that Reggie Jackson will a good player. More is not

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Speaker 1: always more, And maybe this is more for the regular

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Speaker 1: season because Patrick Beverley has been nursing the groin and

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Speaker 1: they need another guy to get buckets. But but there

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Speaker 1: is this thing about having too many guys who everybody

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Speaker 1: and everybody in the NBA wants to play. But at

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Speaker 1: some role level, you have to accept accept your role.

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Speaker 1: To go from go to guys starting point guard to

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Speaker 1: ten minutes a night, playing only on back to back nights.

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Speaker 1: That's gonna be hard. And guys all the time say like,

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Speaker 1: I can do it. Were playing for a championship, don't care,

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Speaker 1: But it can be very very difficult when truth be told,

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Speaker 1: that's not how you're wired. All these guys think they're

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Speaker 1: better than the other guy, and there's not that much

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Speaker 1: separation between he and Shammon, he and Patrick Beverley, he

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Speaker 1: and Lou Williams. Reggie Jackson's had a lot of success

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Speaker 1: in this league, scoring played on good teams, played on

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Speaker 1: playoff teams, so we'll we'll see. I'm not sure it's

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Speaker 1: a total win for the Clippers, although not getting Darren

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Speaker 1: Coulson is definitely a loss for the Lakers. Be sure

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Speaker 1: to catch the live edition of The Doug Gottlieb Show

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Speaker 1: weekdays at three p m. Easter noon Pacific on Fox

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Speaker 1: Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio. Ah app All right,

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Speaker 1: let's get to our interview of the week as we

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Speaker 1: welcome in the head coach of the Richmond Spiders, Chris Mooney.

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Speaker 1: My guest this week is the head coach of the

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Speaker 1: Richmond Spiders. They've given pretty much everybody. I just like

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Speaker 1: to say an acrophobia. It's a fun son, you know,

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Speaker 1: because the Richmond Spiders. And I remember, like Chris Mooney

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Speaker 1: joins us, um, I remember when Richmond beat Syracuse in

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Speaker 1: the n C A trumon when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: right like, I used to follow it. Do you remember

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Speaker 1: Richmond way back then? Or is it was it only

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Speaker 1: when you became coach there that you that you became aware. No,

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Speaker 1: I definitely remember the rich As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: when Richmond beat Syracuse, I was playing at Princeton and

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Speaker 1: we were in Syracuse, so we played Friday, and that

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Speaker 1: game was on Thursday, and the player who hit the

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Speaker 1: kind of a clinching free throws, name Eugene Burrows, was

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Speaker 1: somebody had. I had played on my AU team for

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Speaker 1: four years, so I remember specifically that game, and always

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Speaker 1: I always thought highly Richmond, you always going up when

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Speaker 1: coach Tarrant was here, and hope they recruited me. They

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Speaker 1: were smart enough not to and um, but no, I've

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Speaker 1: known about it for a long time. Yeah, I didn't

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Speaker 1: realize you're that old. Yeah, I appreciate it, but I

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Speaker 1: don't really realize you're that old. I thought you were

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Speaker 1: like a couple of years older than me, Like that was.

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Speaker 1: I was really Okay, So let's let's go back one.

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Speaker 1: I remember, I remember the story. I remember. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: she grew up in Philadelphia. Correct, Yep, we're in Philly,

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Speaker 1: in Northeast Philadelphia. Okay, so what what is There's there's

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Speaker 1: different sections obviously a Philly. What's the reputation of Northeast Philadelphia? Uh?

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Speaker 1: I would say that, Um it's pretty working class, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, very blue collar. Um, you know, mostly like

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Speaker 1: a lot of Catholic, uh churches, Catholic schools, Catholic high schools. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I would say, you know, South Philly is

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Speaker 1: probably like the most prototypical like Eagles fan, and Northeast

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia is probably close to that, not maybe not quite

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Speaker 1: as passionate, but pretty close to that. Okay. So you're dad,

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Speaker 1: if I remember, was a bus driver, right correct? Yeah? Okay,

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Speaker 1: So what was what was your childhood like with him?

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Speaker 1: With your family? Like you to give me the sense

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Speaker 1: of was it Ozzie and Harriet, you know, white picket fence,

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Speaker 1: little house, was it a town? What was what was

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Speaker 1: it like? Yeah? So, uh, I have four brothers and sister.

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Speaker 1: So I'm the youngest of five, and my dad drove

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Speaker 1: a bus for Greyhound. Um my mom passed away when

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Speaker 1: I was pretty young, and I would say, yeah, thirteen

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Speaker 1: years old, and um, yeah, no, I would you know.

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Speaker 1: We grew up in a row home, which is standard

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Speaker 1: in Northeast Philadelphia, and you know, tons and tons of

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Speaker 1: neighbors on the block. You know, I probably had you know,

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Speaker 1: seven or eight kids on the same street as my age,

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Speaker 1: and my brother, who's you know, four years older than

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Speaker 1: they had seven or eight kids his age. You know,

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Speaker 1: so always plenty of basketball and stickball and football going

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Speaker 1: on in the street or at the playground, and so

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Speaker 1: it's a lot of fun, a lot of kids, tons

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Speaker 1: and tons of kids always around, always games going on.

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Speaker 1: Uh so, how did your dad do it? Your mom

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Speaker 1: gets you're a teenager, and he drove a Greyhound bus.

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Speaker 1: And I like, again, I don't know how routes work,

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Speaker 1: but I figured, like those are you're gone for like

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Speaker 1: a day or two days or even a week, Like

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Speaker 1: if it's a long route, how did that? How did

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Speaker 1: that work? Yeah, that's a great point. So um by

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Speaker 1: that point, you know, again, I was the youngest, so

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Speaker 1: he had been driving for a long time. So the

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Speaker 1: higher your seniority is, you know, the better selection you

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Speaker 1: have all the roots. And so he for a long

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Speaker 1: time he had a route to Atlantic City and so

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Speaker 1: he would probably you know, he'd be there in the

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Speaker 1: morning and then of course playing basketball. You don't you

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Speaker 1: come home right at the school. But he probably would

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Speaker 1: leave like around three, go to work, take a group

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Speaker 1: down to Atlantic City, and be back maybe like midnight

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Speaker 1: or one in the morning. And that was that's the

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Speaker 1: most common route. You know. I think when I was

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Speaker 1: very young, he might have been taking charters and you know,

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Speaker 1: taking groups a little farther around the country, but for

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Speaker 1: the most part affili to Atlantic City probably about an

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Speaker 1: hour and a half. So that's the one I remember.

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Speaker 1: The steady had so he was he was around. I

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Speaker 1: mean obviously a really tall task and tall order for him,

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Speaker 1: but he was around more than you would necessarily think. Um, okay.

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Speaker 1: And then with sports, you know, your mom got sick.

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Speaker 1: It was it was breast cancer. You know you're you're

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Speaker 1: a young did you was it? It was? It really quick?

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Speaker 1: Was it progressive? What? How? How did that? And I

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Speaker 1: hate to break up, I mean the toughest time in

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Speaker 1: your life, but I yeah, no, Um. So actually she um,

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Speaker 1: she had gotten sick three times, so it was like

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Speaker 1: maybe when I was when I was um eight, uh,

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Speaker 1: when I was eight, ten and twelve, and then the

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Speaker 1: last time, you know last it was actually lung cancer

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Speaker 1: at the end. So she had gotten breast cancer a

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Speaker 1: couple of times when I was younger, um, and then

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Speaker 1: lung cancer at the end. And she passed away when

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Speaker 1: I was thirteen. Mm. Hm, did you you play all

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Speaker 1: sports or just too? No? So I played a I

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Speaker 1: was pretty good baseball player. You know, speed's not quite

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Speaker 1: as important baseball and then, um, but I really did

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Speaker 1: start playing basketball right about that time. My my brother

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Speaker 1: closest to me an age, was a really good basketball player,

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Speaker 1: very good high school basketball player, and so I just

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Speaker 1: really started to play basketball then, you know, and it

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Speaker 1: was you know, I would be the playground near our

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Speaker 1: house had lights and they also hosted um like a

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Speaker 1: A meetings, alcoholics, anonymous meetings, So they would leave the

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Speaker 1: lights on like Thursday night through Sunday nuntil like two

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Speaker 1: in the morning, and so you know, you could just

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Speaker 1: you could be up there all the time. And they

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Speaker 1: did that, I guess, you know, so they have they

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Speaker 1: take a break from the meeting, they go out and

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Speaker 1: he's got to shoot around him. So I just ended

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Speaker 1: up being there all the time. And you know that

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Speaker 1: was certainly something that uh probably lost myself in, you know,

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Speaker 1: not knowing it at the time. Yeah. Um, so you

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Speaker 1: when you're you're in high school and you was Archbishop Ryan, right,

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Speaker 1: was that where you How good were you guys? We were?

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Speaker 1: I would just say pretty good. You know. It's as

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Speaker 1: you know now, the teams that are good, you know,

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Speaker 1: have seven Division one players and there they have unique

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Speaker 1: names and all that kind of stuff. At the time.

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Speaker 1: We were pretty good. I mean we won the Northern

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Speaker 1: Division of the Catholic League my senior year, which was

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Speaker 1: you know, the Southern Division would have been better where

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Speaker 1: the Movement Saint John Newman and Roman Catholic Cardinal Ohio

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Speaker 1: in the Southern division. But we won the Northern Division

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Speaker 1: of the Catholic League, and we were pretty good. I

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Speaker 1: mean we were by no means. We wouldn't have one

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Speaker 1: slam dunk to the beach or anything like that, but

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Speaker 1: we were a pretty good team of you know, like

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Speaker 1: seven seniors, just more traditional no recruiting, all guys who

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Speaker 1: grew up playing together. M So, did you get any bees?

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Speaker 1: Like I always picture because I remember, you know, one

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Speaker 1: of my best friends, Darren Hight, who went to went

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Speaker 1: to Princeton, and I don't think he got any bees,

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Speaker 1: or maybe he got one and he didn't initially get

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Speaker 1: into Princeton. Um, you're obviously you have heavily recruited, like

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Speaker 1: you know, academically, How are you so, like, where did

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Speaker 1: that come from? It's like everybody in your family is

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Speaker 1: tree day student. Were you always the bright? Didja get?

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Speaker 1: Give me? Give me a sense of what it was

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Speaker 1: actually like, yeah, so my brother was older than I was.

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Speaker 1: Uh was not a great story, very smart and not

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Speaker 1: a great student. UM and I don't I don't know,

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Speaker 1: you know I I I was. I was. It was

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Speaker 1: a pretty good student. You know. There's a great story

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Speaker 1: that I found out years later. I um was back

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Speaker 1: at my high school about ten years after graduation, and

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Speaker 1: while the sisters they're said, uh, you know, you must

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Speaker 1: remember our you know, our secretary Mrs carry who who

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Speaker 1: was there when you were there? And I really didn't

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Speaker 1: and and said hello and talked to her. Well, the

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Speaker 1: sister told me that I had handed in my apple

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Speaker 1: cation to Princeton, kind of handwritten and you know, all

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Speaker 1: scratched up and not well taken care of. And she

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Speaker 1: uh called Princeton and asked him to send another one,

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Speaker 1: and she typed it up for me without ever telling.

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Speaker 1: And this isn't like a school of like fifty kids.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's there are three thousand kids in the school.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it was just an amazing, amazing thing

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Speaker 1: that you would have done for me. Otherwise I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: sure they would have probably thrown out the one handwritten

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Speaker 1: application prinstance. But I was, I was a pretty good student,

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Speaker 1: and you know, probably just more afraid to get in

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Speaker 1: trouble for for grades than anything else, and lucky enough

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Speaker 1: to do okay on the say t So just just

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Speaker 1: more luck than anything. Okay, fair, fair enough, you can

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Speaker 1: tell me it's it's luck. How did what was the

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Speaker 1: Pete Carill recruiting experience like for you? So I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you this. So yeah that so at the time, and

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Speaker 1: so you were probably at the tail end of this. Uh,

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Speaker 1: home visits were really important. So home visits would happen

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Speaker 1: in September, and it was a big deal. How many

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Speaker 1: home visits a particular guy had, um And so we

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Speaker 1: did all of mine at the school. And I would

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Speaker 1: so if I had eight or ten and we could

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Speaker 1: be from you know, it could be all levels or

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Speaker 1: all levels division one, and I would always ask my

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Speaker 1: first question be one of my weaknesses, you know, and

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Speaker 1: just to try to gauge the sense of honesty of

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Speaker 1: the coach and if he had seen me that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. Coach Carrol came in and he was probably

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Speaker 1: you know, around the seventh or eighth one, and he

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Speaker 1: came in and I mean for five minutes he just

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Speaker 1: could have said before we sat down and he just

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Speaker 1: criticized me and said, now slow. I was, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: I came down the same side of the court every time.

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Speaker 1: Uh you know that I passed up a couple of stops,

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Speaker 1: and but another time, I h you know, took the

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Speaker 1: shop that I shouldn't have and just picked out everything

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Speaker 1: from the open gym that he just watched. And I

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Speaker 1: was sold. I mean I loved it. I thought it

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Speaker 1: was it was great. I mean, you know, he has

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Speaker 1: a really unique personality. He's brilliant, but he was so

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Speaker 1: honest that it was just I mean again, I don't

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Speaker 1: know how much would work today. Uh, but that's five

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Speaker 1: minutes and ten criticisms. I was. I was sold. I know,

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Speaker 1: that's why I was gonna go. Yeah, that's how I

385
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Speaker 1: feel like, that's how they all were, right, Like I mean,

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Speaker 1: I played for Eddie Sutton. My father is kind of

387
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Speaker 1: that same generation obviously, you know, and uh just where

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Speaker 1: they That's that's just how Bulk and that's kind of

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Speaker 1: it did kind of wire us I felt in my profession. Now,

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Speaker 1: it's the hardest thing is that when you when you

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Speaker 1: are honest as a broadcaster. I think there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who haven't played maybe or maybe they played

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Speaker 1: recently where it's not this way anymore. But when you

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Speaker 1: give honest, uh feedback as to how a kid is playing,

395
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Speaker 1: you know, I asked a terrible pass, like, well, you

396
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Speaker 1: can't say that, like, yeah, they're all they actually understand.

397
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Speaker 1: It's a terrible past. Like that's just the language of

398
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Speaker 1: sport when it's coached by kind of older guys. It's

399
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Speaker 1: just it's a really endearing thing. Um. Okay, so you

400
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Speaker 1: were a junior in high school during the during the

401
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 1: Georgetown game, right, yes, exactly. Okay, do you remember I

402
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Speaker 1: remember where I was. Do you remember where you were

403
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Speaker 1: when Princeton like it felt like led Georgetown all the

404
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Speaker 1: way up intil like the last couple of minutes. Yeah exactly.

405
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,919
Speaker 1: I can remember. Yeah, I was at a friend's house, um,

406
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Speaker 1: watching the game. The game was in Providence, and I

407
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Speaker 1: think I think it was half and if you remember,

408
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Speaker 1: they went to the halftime and it was in the

409
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Speaker 1: studios like John Saunders, and it was ESPN because ESPN

410
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Speaker 1: had the first round games back then. Yeah exactly, and

411
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Speaker 1: they were just dead silent for like the first five seconds.

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Speaker 1: It was you know, it was that shocking that this

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Speaker 1: was happening. And further, if you remember, Georgetown had just

414
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Speaker 1: drilled every one of the Big East Tournament. I think

415
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Speaker 1: they won the biggest tournament by an average of thirty

416
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Speaker 1: points a game and just seemed unbeatable. And at the time,

417
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Speaker 1: you know, they had that aura anyway, seemed unbeatable. And here,

418
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Speaker 1: you know, Princeton was up at halftime and you know,

419
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Speaker 1: had had really great chances to win the game. You

420
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Speaker 1: go to Princeton, what was your what's so? What's what's

421
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 1: that experience? Like? You're going from from Philly. It's not

422
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Speaker 1: far to Princeton, but you're going to an Ivy League school.

423
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Speaker 1: You went to a private Catholic school. What what what

424
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Speaker 1: was your first Princeton experience? Like? So I went up

425
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 1: there and I worked on campus this summer before my

426
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 1: freshman year, and so that was that ended up being

427
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,639
Speaker 1: really good for me because you know, I met about

428
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 1: fifteen or twenty other people who worked in the office

429
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 1: that I worked in. It was like the summer camps

430
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: and conferences. So they don't have summer school at Princeton,

431
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 1: so there's a lot of opportunity for you know, the

432
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: athletic teams are onund their camps and for also, you know,

433
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 1: big conferences that come in and use the campus. So

434
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: I made some friends. As you said, it's only only

435
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: about a forty minute drive to my house, but I

436
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: was able to make some friends and get used to

437
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 1: the uh you know, a little bit used to the

438
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 1: type of people that were there and how the campus

439
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 1: was laid out, that kind of stuff. Uh. And so

440
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: and then I can remember, um, you know, we go

441
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: I'd go down to the gym and at the time,

442
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 1: the coaches weren't allowed to work with you, and Coach

443
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: Carroll would be, you know, kind of standing me like

444
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 1: a pillar, yelling at me to tell tell me to

445
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 1: do something that I was down after shooting, you know,

446
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 1: to tell me, you know, take take a drive to

447
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: your left, take a drive to your left, and uh,

448
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: but pretending not to watch. And then uh, and then

449
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 1: when school started, I mean it was it really it

450
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: was hard. I mean I was completely overwhelmed, academically, completely overwhelmed.

451
00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 1: Basketball wive. You know, our practices were really really really long.

452
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: Coach Curl was really demanding. Um. And then I was

453
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: in school. You know, I probably I thought I was

454
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: working hard, but I'm sure I wasn't working the right

455
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: way and I was struggling, and it was it was

456
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 1: it was a really difficult adjustment. And um, that's what

457
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: I remember about it. You know. Our team was terrific,

458
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: you know, and I we were nationally ranked, we were great,

459
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: and I played, but it was it was really tough,

460
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: really demanding, really a tough season. No, it's great because

461
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 1: you know I had the same I went to Notre Dame.

462
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 1: I was a great student. I went to Notre Dame

463
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 1: and I was, you know, going to start right and

464
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 1: I end up starting. But I remember preseason practice, ad

465
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 1: more White was kicking my ass. I was homesick, it

466
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: was cold, I wasn't doing well in school. I go

467
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: in to see are you going to another philliague point guard?

468
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: And going to see fran McCaffrey, and I'm like, I suck,

469
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: I can't do this. I need to go home. And

470
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 1: he's like, what is the matter? Just a freshman? What

471
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: is it? Who is the who was? Who is your

472
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: guy who you went and saw? Was it a coach

473
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: a player? How did you keep it together? Yes, so

474
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: it was again a little different. You know, coach Carrell,

475
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: nobody would have gone down there kill for sure. Um,

476
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: and we had a great staff. I mean it was

477
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 1: armand I mean Billy Carmody who was a lad to

478
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 1: the coach of Princeton then Northwestern UM and and we

479
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: had armand Hill later was on the staff who was

480
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: who was a great NBA player to play to Princeton.

481
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, it was it was more just the guys really,

482
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: and the coach crew was so hard and tough. It

483
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: was really the guys. And we used to do this thing.

484
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: We would line up before practice, like probably about three

485
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: or four days a week, and the guy we termed

486
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 1: it going down the line, and Coach Carrel would go

487
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: through every guy in front of the whole in front

488
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: of the whole team and just say really just kind

489
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: of break down his game and his character flaws and

490
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: things like this. And so I was starting, but but

491
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 1: Princeton every there were five starters returning, but coach Crew

492
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: started me over a guy named Matt Hence. It was

493
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: a good player, and we were so good. I probably

494
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: couldn't I couldn't do that much damage. So when we

495
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: would go down the line, he would get to me,

496
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 1: and of course since I was the one person playing,

497
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 1: I would get a lot, you know, ten minutes of it,

498
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,479
Speaker 1: and then when he would get to Matt Henson, you know,

499
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: he would say, Yo, Matt, just give me another couple

500
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: of days with this with this guy, and then I

501
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: would get it again. So it was it was tough.

502
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: And the only way through it is I thank your teammates,

503
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: you know, because you and locker room and have dinner.

504
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: And he started laughing up onto the phone that he

505
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: said that in the moment, you're not laughing out um,

506
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: but just it's just it's thing. I feel like it.

507
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: And I don't know if they do this on purpose

508
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: or if it's just their personality, but they make it

509
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: so it's like us against them, like coaches against players,

510
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: and it makes the players closer together, like those are

511
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 1: my still my best friends. I know how close all

512
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 1: you Princeton guys are that played for Pete, especially you,

513
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm sure the guys that played for

514
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: Joe Scott I'm sure as well. But but it it

515
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: felt like it was a unifying thing. Yeah, that that's

516
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: exactly right. I can remember. You know, it was funny

517
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 1: because if you're if you you know, coach Krill was

518
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: you know, five ft six maybe you know, and he

519
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: had all these big, smart guys just scared to death.

520
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: And then you know, I would say every single time

521
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: we had a meal or were on the bus or

522
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 1: we were we were you know, making fun of coach

523
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: Grill or impersonating coach Kerill or some of the things

524
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: you said. And you're right, it became something that it

525
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: was you against him. It was a it was a

526
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 1: fight every single day. But you were together, you know.

527
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: And I do think there's impossible today, but something pretty

528
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: pretty pretty wise about that. You that that year you

529
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: guys led the country in uh scoring defense. You health

530
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: teams to like forty eight point nine points per game. Okay,

531
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: that's that's obscene. Now some of that is pace, right

532
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: and and um and it was shocked that was a

533
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 1: forty five second shot clock then okay, so so so

534
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: the shot clock was longer. Um. And this is where

535
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: I'm fastated by conceptional conceptually defensively, was it like would

536
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: you consider it pack line? Like what was his defensive

537
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: principles that allowed you guys to be so good as

538
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: a team? Yeah? So yeah, And I believe that year

539
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: I think we were like second the country and seal

540
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: percentage defense too. I mean it wasn't He also led

541
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: the country and I don't know if you know this.

542
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: You led the country in uh fueld a three point

543
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: percentage offense like forty what was it forty five point

544
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: Now that was a year before it was forty five

545
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: point two, but it is in the in the mid forties.

546
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: So you guys were ahead of the curve in terms

547
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: of at least three point percentage. Maybe not as much volume,

548
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: but still volume kind of kind of and as much

549
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: as he was, you know, a super OWLD guy even

550
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,719
Speaker 1: back then, uh, there were part of a lot of

551
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: like look, everybody now is is loading up on the ball,

552
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of that that you guys

553
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: did back then. Yeah. No, it's a great point. And

554
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: I mentioned this all the time. I mean, coach Curls

555
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: literally not ten years out of this time, and he's

556
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: about sixty years out of his time. And because because

557
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: of the Georgetown game in the u c l A

558
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: game and these low scores in those games where every

559
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: coach would would slow down the pace. If you if

560
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: you saw the talent differential, but if you if you

561
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: looked at just how we played and especially when we

562
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: played in league and we were you know, we were

563
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: still patient, but not as deliberate. I mean, you know,

564
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: having all five guys who can dribble, pass, and shoot

565
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: a little bit position less basketball. Um, you know, dribble handoffs,

566
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: flair screens, cross court passes, spacing the court the way

567
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: they do trills at the beginning or he's way ahead

568
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: of the beginning of all of that. Um. And like

569
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: I said, I think because the games that stick out

570
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: are the games where it feels like we held the ball,

571
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: he probably doesn't get quite as much credit, but yeah,

572
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: he was. He was way way ahead of all that.

573
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: And defensively too. You know, it's incredible. We started practicing

574
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: defense maybe five days before our first game. And that year,

575
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,239
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, my freshman year, we had

576
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: our first ten games were away. I mean I picked

577
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: two tournaments and and six true road games. Um, we

578
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: played UNLV. He was the number one team in the

579
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: country with Larry Johnson and Stacy and you know they

580
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: it was. He thought defense was fairly simple, and we're

581
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: also playing the matchup zone. The beginnings of the matchup zone,

582
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: which was so unique and different to everybody that it

583
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: was really hard for teams to score. Our first home

584
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: game member. We played Yale, who was picked maybe second

585
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: in the league, and I think that you know, it

586
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: was like and we helped multiple teams to single digits

587
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,959
Speaker 1: in the first half. I mean, it was really incredible.

588
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: So what was it about the matchup zone that was

589
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: confounding to so many of these coaches? Well, I would

590
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: say at the time, Um, most teams ran their zone offense,

591
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: and then then they would overload. They would just go

592
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: to one side and overload. They go to the other

593
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: side and overload. You're like, this is not a great deal,

594
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: but they get they get locked up by a zone. Yeah, completely,

595
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: And there was you know, there were I mean, ball

596
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: screens were really frowned upon at that time. So a

597
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: few ball screens, Uh certainly wouldn't ball screen a zone,

598
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,479
Speaker 1: you know at that time? Uh, And I mean teams

599
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: you know, and Coach Crow used to keep a stat uh,

600
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: you know, because people would accuse us of being so deliberate.

601
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: You know, we are. Defensive possessions were far longer than

602
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: our offensive possessions and team really teams really tried to

603
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: move us around. Um. But when you start to see

604
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: that over and over, you can you know we were

605
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: a little bit ahead of them in terms of what

606
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: we were doing on defense, and so, um yeah, it

607
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: was really really hard for all of the all of

608
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: our opponents too, uh to find a good rhythm that

609
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: just didn't really exist against us. You played in the

610
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: n c A Tournament. You mentioned you're playing in Syracuse.

611
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: You played against Nova, so that what was What was

612
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: that like for you a a a Philadelphia kid who

613
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: now of a sudden, you're playing in the n c

614
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: A Tournament against Villanova and you guys lead it the

615
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: half to We did three, I believe, and Chris Walker

616
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: uh fell down on a three point shot right before

617
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: the end of the half because it was uh and

618
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: he was great at that stuff. And um, so we

619
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: we were good. I mean we were We were the

620
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: eight seeds, so we were the home uniform. Um, it

621
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: was great. I was cheering for Villanova, you know, the

622
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: week before they had like a really you know, they

623
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: might have been seventeen and fifteen or something like that,

624
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: but a great schedule, and you know, it was great.

625
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: I loved loved Villanova, loved Villanova, and it was it

626
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: was a big again. I think I had the first

627
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: basket of the game. It was in the carrier Dome

628
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: and that they were you know, it was really in

629
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,719
Speaker 1: a way, you know, Princeton played Georgetown um than they

630
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: played UM Tech or not Texas, Arkansas and then Villanova

631
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: and Syracuse, and it would have been it would have

632
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: been better for us to play a team out west

633
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: or you know, it was better to play Arkansas, even

634
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: though they're more talented than than Villanova, say, because Villanova

635
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: played that style too, they were playing games in the

636
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: fifties and and really deliberate on offense and changing defenses,

637
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. It would have better for us

638
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: to play a wide open team. Who who would who

639
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,879
Speaker 1: had really been shocked by our style? Yes, yeah, no,

640
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: I mean because they wouldn't have seen it and they

641
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,240
Speaker 1: wouldn't have I just I just think teams that teams

642
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: that felt like you know, like like the u c

643
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: l A nineties six team, Um, I want to get

644
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: to that. I want to get that in a second.

645
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: And I know you weren't on that team, but it was.

646
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: It was a it was a monumental achievement. Even though

647
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 1: that team was a ranked team and a really good

648
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: team that people act like that U c l A

649
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 1: team was a great one and it was not Um,

650
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: it's it's more finally winning the game. Considering how many

651
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: times you've been closed. Um, how how would you discuss it?

652
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: You start four years, you score a thousand points, guys

653
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: didn't win the league the last two years that you're

654
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: at at Princeton. How would you if you were going

655
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: to character how would you characterize your college career to

656
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: somebody's like, Now, I didn't live it, what was it

657
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: like for you? Well? Um, in retrospect, great, but at

658
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: the time it was it was tough. I mean coach

659
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: curw was extremely demanding. Um again, I I really I

660
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: like that and embraced that. But he was he was

661
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: really tough. I had we had great guys on the team. Uh.

662
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: And I you know, I was I was a pretty

663
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: good player. Like I I was a good player for

664
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: to play a prince and I could pass. I had

665
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: a good sense. I was fairly versatile. I was you know.

666
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: It was just very slow, which which hurt hurts obviously

667
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: and anything. Um, but we had we had you know,

668
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 1: we beat um fer Alina State twice and we had,

669
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: um you know, we were nationally ranked as as an

670
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: IVY League team. It was it was great. And I

671
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,919
Speaker 1: will tell you that there's not not a day goes

672
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: by that I'm not influenced by something that happened while

673
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: playing basketball Prince and it was it was I was

674
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: unbelievably lucky to have done it, and it has impacted

675
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: me more than anything else in my life. And um,

676
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,439
Speaker 1: he had he called people like light, but he wanted

677
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: more light bulbs, right, light bulbs, light up the whole room.

678
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: That was That was his thing. Who was the greatest

679
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: light the brightest light bulb that you played with at Princeton,

680
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: Kit Miller um so Kit was his last three years

681
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 1: Princeton won the title. He's Prodly Player of the Year twice. Um.

682
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: He was a center through the whole offense would would

683
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: go through him. Uh he I think he's second to

684
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: Bradley and scoring and you know, and you know he

685
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: didn't shoot threes or anything like that. He could score

686
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: on anybody. You know, he had a great game against

687
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 1: Alonzo Mourning. You know, he could score. He could score

688
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: on anybody and was a great passer. He really was

689
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: incredibly critical to to you know, to that that era

690
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: of Princeton which lafted through the u c L. A

691
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: game in the next few years so you go to Princeton.

692
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 1: Everybody things. You go to Princeton, you get some crazy

693
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: killer job coming out, right, That's how you go to

694
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: IVY League. At what point in time did you like,

695
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: I want to be a basketball coach? Yeah, so I

696
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,359
Speaker 1: wanted to be back since I was about five years old.

697
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: My my actually maybe maybe when I was ten. My

698
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: my brother was close to me, an aide, Kevin. It

699
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: was a good player at our our local um school,

700
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: Catholic School had a great coach named Neil Brazil and

701
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: Mr Brazel was one of a few guys in town,

702
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: was a white collar worker and so he would where

703
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 1: you know he was. He looked like the Bill Coward chin.

704
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: He was about six ft four, silver hair, and he

705
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: would wear a three piece suit, you know, to these

706
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: little games that we didn't have want to have a

707
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: gym with the little public school gym, tile floor. And

708
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: he always made sure that our team had the best

709
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: uniforms and had warm ups and didn't let anybody go

710
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: in the court during halftime and talk to the guys

711
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: about how they carried themselves. And it just had a

712
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 1: huge impact. And I would go home and literally addressed

713
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: in uh, you know, in a suit that I had

714
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: from Communion or something and pretend to be him. I

715
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: mean he was. He was just like a a commanding presence.

716
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: It was. It was really something unique. And so I

717
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: always you know, obviously I wanted to play, but I

718
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: always always pictured That's who I would I uh, you know,

719
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: if I closed my eyes and picture coach, that's who

720
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: I would picture, just somebody in in such command he was.

721
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: He was you know, he just talked about being you know,

722
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: having class and uh it was you know, he had

723
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: a good back. And I never even got to play

724
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: with him. His his his youngest son was a year

725
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: older than me, and so I never even got to

726
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 1: play for him. But but yeah, he had a huge

727
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: impact on me. So you get done, You get done

728
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: at Princeton. Uh, well, how did you became a high

729
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: school coach? How did that take place? Yeah? So, um,

730
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: I interviewed. There was a a school called Lansdale Catholic,

731
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: which is about twenty minutes outside or from where I

732
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 1: grew up, minutes but not in the Philadelphic Catholic League

733
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: at the time. And you know, I applied for the

734
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: job and they had an athletic director named Frank Gevnizy

735
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: who was He was at Bishop Kenrick actually when they

736
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 1: hired Gino r ema Um and he will tell the

737
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: story that I was terrible in the first interview and

738
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 1: they had plenty of people in the Landsdale area who

739
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: are far more qualified. And he invited me back to

740
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 1: a second interview and he said, hey, just wear your

741
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: sweat seat and just relax. And I went back and

742
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: he had a little committee and they offered me the job.

743
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it was you know, at the time, I thought,

744
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,879
Speaker 1: of course, I'm the best person for the job. Looking back,

745
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I really appreciative that he would

746
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 1: take that kind of chance. And I was able to

747
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: get a teaching job at at one of the local

748
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 1: grade schools and coach there for three years. Great place.

749
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: No what what grade did you teach? Well? I taught

750
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: sixth grade for one year, and then I moved to

751
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: the high school the next two years and taught freshman sophomores.

752
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: What what subject I taught? Uh? Mostly English or language

753
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 1: arts as it was called in the grade school. Um,

754
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: and then a little bit of related arts. Related arts

755
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 1: is a little bit of whatever I wanted it to be.

756
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: At Thanks so amazing you know, I didn't know, so

757
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: I would do like, uh, poetry and music, music lyrics.

758
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 1: It was like a one. It was maybe the only

759
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: one semester you might have taken it like the other

760
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: semester where you didn't have help and fizz in UM.

761
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: But most of my classes were English, which was tough.

762
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's hard to grade essays with

763
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: a class, you know, with three or four classes a

764
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 1: thirty kid. That's that's a tough one. Okay. So you're

765
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: there for three years and then you you coached at Beaver.

766
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: Now Beaver's changed names now, so you you coached at

767
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: a school that no longer I mean it exists, but

768
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: it was Beaver College. Now it's Arcadia University. Why did

769
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 1: you decide to make that that leap? So I wanted

770
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: to coach college, and the same thing Arcadie is is,

771
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: you know, right outside of Philadelphia, UM. And I really

772
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: wanted to coach in college. You know, a more traditional

773
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: route and a better route would be to go be

774
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: a grad assistant somewhere and in Division one and then

775
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: you know, try to work your way up through the

776
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: Vision one. I just really had a desire to be

777
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: a head coach. And when the when the Beaver College

778
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 1: job opened, uh, you know, the fair amount of high

779
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,919
Speaker 1: school coaches in our area were interested, and but it

780
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 1: wasn't full time and so um. But another job they

781
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 1: had opened, ironically was the summer camps and conference services job,

782
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: and I had done that at Princeton for five summers,

783
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: and so they were not offering those as a package deal.

784
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 1: But I kind of suggested that i'd be I would

785
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: love to interview for both, and as it turned out,

786
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: I was able to get both of those. And when

787
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 1: I got there, I mean, this is literally my first

788
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: year of Beaver College. We had six players in the team,

789
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: including a walk on. That's true, that's not that's not

790
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,919
Speaker 1: an exaggeration. We had. We had six guys on the team,

791
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: and we would have to we had to stop warm

792
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: ups when the two captains Quid go to the chump

793
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:37,919
Speaker 1: circle about how much how much did you make as

794
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: the coach? I think it was two thousand dollars? And

795
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: then teaching and all the other stuff like all in

796
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:45,959
Speaker 1: what were you what were you calling? Yeah, okay, so

797
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: I would say Atlanta Catholic probably I was making about

798
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: twenty six. And then I would say at Beaver College.

799
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 1: I was making pride about maybe one something like that,

800
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 1: how did you how do you live? Like? What what

801
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: do you? I mean obviously, and this is not that

802
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: long goes is not like the nineteen thirties. This is

803
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 1: two thousand, you know, I think, and do you. I'm

804
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: sure you've met a thousand to ten thousand people like this. Coaches,

805
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: you know, you're just wired to do that, and everything

806
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: else is so secondary, you know, I mean, a free

807
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: pair of shoes and three pair sneakers and sweats is

808
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: kind of all you're looking at. And you're just just

809
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: consumed with coaching and later recruiting and that kind of thing,

810
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 1: and um, you know, developing your philosophy and how you're

811
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 1: gonna you know, for me, how was it going to

812
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: be like coach grew, How it's gonna be different from

813
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 1: coach crewing? That's really that's I have no idea how

814
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: everything else worked out. I know that was that was

815
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: how driven I was. Did you did you guys run Princeton?

816
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 1: Mean did you what? What? Did you run? Chin and elbow? Like?

817
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,720
Speaker 1: Did you run the offense? So I would say similar,

818
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 1: not exact though, One thing that I had tried to

819
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: develop as you know, the Princeton offenses for kind of

820
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: interchangeable parts around one center. When I was at high school,

821
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: we were never going to have, you know, our center

822
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 1: was going to be another six ft two guy, and

823
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: so what we try to do is make it five

824
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: interchangeable parts. You know, so princes and of a guy

825
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 1: would cut back door and not gonna lay up. He

826
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: would kind of clear out to the to a corner.

827
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: So what we did is we changed as you cut

828
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 1: back door and didn't get it, then now we would

829
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: post you and then maybe you shoot up to the elbow.

830
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: So that was the one change. And I had thought

831
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: of that. We're considered that knowing I was going to

832
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: coach high school, so I kind of had, you know,

833
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: I was probably a little bit too rigid than but

834
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: I probably I had that kind of figured out and

835
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: that was what and we still do that as a

836
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: matter of fact. Um, But that's how I was a

837
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: little bit different than than the exact offense. And did

838
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: you run the matchup zone? So not really. I mostly

839
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: played man to man. We we had a great att

840
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: a dokathok. We had great defensive teams, and then I

841
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 1: think we help teams in under forty points a game.

842
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 1: For one season, we had really good you know, uh

843
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 1: like three football players. Some guys were really really good

844
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: at guarding. Um, so we did not we played We

845
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,959
Speaker 1: played man demand and at Beaver College a matter of fact,

846
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 1: we pressed that we had a Carlos Sanders who was

847
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: incredible stealing the ball. We we pressed every possession. So

848
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: we were a little bit we were a little bit

849
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: different that way. Um. Okay, So Beaver College, you know

850
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: you're there two years, you go eight and seventeen. First year, right,

851
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: with two years? Right, first year you had six guys,

852
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: you go eight and seventeen. Second year, you go your

853
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 1: sixteen and ten Division three coach? How did how did

854
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: did Joe Scott call you? Did you call him? How

855
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: did you come to leave and and become and you've

856
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: never been an assistant coach before to go be an

857
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: assistant at Air Force? Yeah? So, uh so just to

858
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: show if this is right before the internet really takes off.

859
00:45:55,160 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: And also, um, I was working the Villanova camp and

860
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 1: Joe Scott was interviewing at air Force, and so I

861
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 1: can remember, you know, going to bed one night and

862
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 1: not knowing what happened, and then the next morning I

863
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: walked across and got a got a pill off you

864
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: inquire at the wahwah and he got the job at

865
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: air Force. And just my immediate thought was that I

866
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:22,760
Speaker 1: was going to go being a sick and a Princeton

867
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: you know, I was almost sure of it, you know,

868
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,359
Speaker 1: because for as many guys who who are coaching who

869
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: played at Princeton at the time, I would have been

870
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 1: the only one, you know, guys who either were playing

871
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 1: overseas or the younger guys were still in school, whatever

872
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: it was. And I didn't know that, you know, in

873
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 1: any way, but I thought, wow, this is and then um,

874
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 1: I talked to coach Carmody and was scheduled to go

875
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: up and talked to him, and then I talked to

876
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 1: Joe and he asked if if I was interested, And

877
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,359
Speaker 1: I went up and sat down and talked with Joe,

878
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: and then about ten minutes he said, do you want

879
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: to come out here with me? And I said absolutely,

880
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,720
Speaker 1: you know, you know Joe and his passion and fire,

881
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: and you know, I couldn't wait. And it was unique.

882
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it was a service academy, but in the

883
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: Mountain West, I mean it was it was a really

884
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: kind of a cool, unique thing. So you get there

885
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: and that's it. It's a beautiful place, but it's a

886
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 1: different place, right so you know, and you've been in

887
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: some and you know, Beaver's a beautiful campus and so

888
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: is Princeton, but again different. Like you said, what do

889
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: you remember about about Colorado Springs first getting there on

890
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 1: campus at the academy. Yeah, so, well, I mean it

891
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 1: was I would say what stuck stuck out to me

892
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: was the commitment to football. You know, was was impressive

893
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 1: and real and now it's it's going to be a

894
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 1: little bit different than Oklahoma's commitment to football. But um

895
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: Fisher Dewberry, who was an incredible person and longtime coach,

896
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: was there. They were they were very very good. Uh,

897
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: And just the size of the stadium and the indoor

898
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: and they had an indoor practice field and the fields

899
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: outside and how many you know, they recruit a lot

900
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: of guys because everybody's on scholarship at the academy, and

901
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: I think that's the thing that stood out to me

902
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 1: the most. And then they played this option style and

903
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 1: obviously I'm sure that's why Joe got the job, to bring,

904
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: you know, a unique style and you know, out West

905
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: it's different. There aren't There aren't quite as many schools

906
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: out west as are back East. And so when you know,

907
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: if you're Princeton in Richmond and you're playing you know,

908
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: in the non league, if you're playing you know, Lehigh

909
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: and Las Vette, and I mean those schools are because

910
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: of the proximity they're they're they're not too far behind

911
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: good teams, you know what I mean, Like Lehi, I

912
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: will go down to Georgetown and be tied at behalf.

913
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's unique. And out West it was

914
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: just different, more spread out, and so I just thought,

915
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 1: you know, if we could, you know, if we were

916
00:48:55,800 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 1: able to um buy some games and kind of get

917
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: rolling that, I thought we could be pretty good. Because

918
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: I thought in the Mountain Western there was going to

919
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: be a coach who was probably his last year every year,

920
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: and therefore a coach in his first year every year.

921
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: And I thought, you know, that's four games that you're

922
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,320
Speaker 1: gonna have a real chance to win, and if you

923
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: could develop some kind of home court advantage, you know

924
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: that That's the way I kind of saw how how

925
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: Air Force football did it. Their their consistency was worth

926
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 1: two to three wins a year and you know, no

927
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: matter what, the talent was a U and LV or Utah,

928
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: Colorado State, their consistency, and I thought we could. I

929
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 1: really thought we could do that in time, if if

930
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 1: we recruited well enough, which was going to be obviously,

931
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 1: like everywhere, it was going to be the hard part. Yeah.

932
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:47,720
Speaker 1: And the league was league was really good then people

933
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 1: forget Utah was in the league back then. Um, and

934
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 1: you know you you know, you guys won seventeen games

935
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: combined the first two years, twelve and six or third year. Uh,

936
00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: and then the fourth year that's when it that's when

937
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: he hit it. Interesting. My brother was it was at

938
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 1: San Diego State and he started right about when you started,

939
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: and he would he would tell me, He's like, look,

940
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 1: it meant not this year, but I'm telling you air

941
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:12,280
Speaker 1: Force is going to be an n c A tournament

942
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 1: team in three or or four years. Uh. And you

943
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 1: had this like really interesting collection, like I remember Antoine

944
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: Hood and Nick well, Nick Welsh was a tremendous player,

945
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: and then you got that Jacob Birchee kid from Oklahoma

946
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: who is your dad was a coach? Right, what is

947
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: it like? What is that like to to cobble guys together,

948
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 1: like do you just look for military families? Is it academics? Like,

949
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: how do you find an Air Force kid? Yeah? Super question.

950
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: So what we did is um a couple of things.

951
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,280
Speaker 1: So you can have fifteen official visits at the service academies.

952
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: You can only you have twelve at at the other schools,

953
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: which may just have changed, but that's what the rule was.

954
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: So we used here a couple of stats. We used

955
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: all fifteen official visits for all five years I was there.

956
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: We recruited one guy. We signed one guy who had

957
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: a Division one scholarship, and that was Bertie. He had

958
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: a scholarship to Boston. You and I believe for the

959
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: last three years. So when Joe Scott head goats myself

960
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: and Justice Delic, I believe all five guys were on

961
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: the all conference team, whether All Conference Defense, second team

962
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:27,720
Speaker 1: player they or whatever it is. And so we really

963
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 1: just had to cast a eve net. So you have

964
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: there aren't many advantages, but you have two advantages. You're

965
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 1: not limited to thirteen scholarships. And we have a prep

966
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: school I'm sorry for it has a prep school, and

967
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 1: so we would recruit a team to the prep school

968
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: and then also recruit two or three freshmen straight in,

969
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: and we would recruit maybe seven guys to the prep

970
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: school and partly they're in the prep school because they

971
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 1: they couldn't qualify to get into the academy street. But

972
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 1: recruit seven guys and then maybe two us we walk

973
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,439
Speaker 1: on kids. Those would be more the you know, kids

974
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: were more familiar with the military who really wanted to

975
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: be there. And we made out the prep school a

976
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: gigantic emphasis. You know, they ran our offense and played

977
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: our defense. They played at thirty five to forty game

978
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: schedule against junior colleges and based teams and Navy prepped

979
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,839
Speaker 1: and Army prep and that was really a great way

980
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: for them. It was a kind of a red shirt year.

981
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 1: Um and that was probably the best thing that we did. So, uh,

982
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: you guys make the n C Herman and Joe is

983
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: going to go back to Princeton and take over, right,

984
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: Carmody is getting the North Northwest. So now it's like, Okay,

985
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 1: I'm finally going back to Princeton where I thought I

986
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 1: was going all along. How did you get the head

987
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 1: coaching job? Yeah? So actually it was John Thompson took

988
00:52:53,880 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: at Georgetown, so, um, so it was interesting, and I,

989
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: you know, I follow this more closely, knew, but the

990
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,839
Speaker 1: George Time job was open for like six weeks and

991
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:12,240
Speaker 1: John was the clear you know, he had taken Princeton

992
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 1: in the NCA tournament a couple of times. He was

993
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 1: the clear person. Obviously is John Thompson's son, and it

994
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 1: was clear that he was going to do it. But

995
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 1: the Thompson's, I mean, they're incredibly private, and there was

996
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,280
Speaker 1: no there were no leaks, there was no hoop scoop,

997
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: there was no story about who was going to get it.

998
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: And then finally it happened, and I did think that

999
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: I would have a really good chance to be the

1000
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: Princeton coach, but I also knew I think Joe really

1001
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:45,240
Speaker 1: wanted it. And um so as soon as that happened, Princeton,

1002
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:47,399
Speaker 1: who would who would kind of traditionally take a little

1003
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: bit of time to hire a coach. I think they

1004
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 1: called Joe right away. And earlier that year, um Don

1005
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 1: de Vaux had retired or announced his retirement and made

1006
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: so here we were having this great year and the

1007
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 1: Naval Academy job opened, and I think they were interested

1008
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: in talking to me, and Air Force put it in

1009
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 1: my contract that I would be the next coach at

1010
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 1: the Air Force Academy when when Joe left, so, um

1011
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 1: so it was kind of a it was it was done.

1012
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it was done before Joe even went to Prince. Okay,

1013
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: how much have you changed as a coach from Beaver

1014
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: College to four years under Joe Scott? Great question. Well,

1015
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 1: I would say, um, a fair amount. Just being an

1016
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 1: assistant is so gives you such a unique perspective and

1017
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: allows you to, um, you know more kind of more

1018
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: calmly evaluate, you know, decisions and uh, you know, Joe

1019
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 1: now was you know, he's you know, I don't think,

1020
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's too many people who could have

1021
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: taken the Air Force Academy to an at large team

1022
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: in the n c A Tournament, and he was. He

1023
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: just did an amazing job. And yeah, you know, for Joe,

1024
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 1: it's it's all the basketball part of it. I don't

1025
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: mean to say it's all the best, but all that

1026
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 1: surrounds the basketball there, the relationship with the guys, the

1027
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: teaching them, the high demands, um, you know, none of

1028
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: the fluff or anything like that. And so, uh that

1029
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 1: was great. I would say I had changed just being

1030
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: around you know, the caliber player and person at the

1031
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 1: Air Force Academy. I had probably changed, uh, but I

1032
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 1: was also still speaking the same language that I had,

1033
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 1: you know, when I played in college and when I

1034
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 1: was a high school and Division three kirch. So not

1035
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 1: as much if I had gone to work for Eddie

1036
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:40,359
Speaker 1: Sutton or you know, something like that, but certainly had

1037
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: had a huge impact on me. And I really feel

1038
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 1: like I got to know how we could recruit successfully

1039
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: an Air Force and how we could build the team

1040
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:51,760
Speaker 1: successfully their force. Um. Okay, so you're there for one year,

1041
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: and now did Richmond came? How did how did the

1042
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 1: Richmond thing come about? Yes? So it was their force

1043
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: one year and Jerry Waynewright, um took the DePaul job,

1044
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:05,799
Speaker 1: I'm sure. And it was late. It was like in

1045
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 1: uh late April, and I'm trying to you know, I'm

1046
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: trying to think why it was late. I forget who

1047
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 1: was at De Paul. Maybe, um, I know it was

1048
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 1: the Virginia job opened late and Dave laid Out went

1049
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: from DePaul to Virginia. Yeah. And and so Jerry Waynewright,

1050
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 1: who was at Richmond but it's from Chicago, took the

1051
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,359
Speaker 1: DePaul John and I can remember thinking, Man, I'd love

1052
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 1: to I'd love to take the Richmond John. I just

1053
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 1: wish I had a couple more years. I don't think

1054
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: they're gonna hire me with one year and the year

1055
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 1: and the our year at air Force, I think we

1056
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: had a really good chance to be in the n

1057
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: I T. And you know, in fact, we finished ahead

1058
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 1: of un l V and UH coach Kruegerho was at UNLV.

1059
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 1: We finished ahead of the UNLV. We had beaten them.

1060
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: We had a close golm beaten them. Honly at the

1061
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 1: Air Force Academy. I think there are two games ahead

1062
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:01,399
Speaker 1: of them, and they hosted an n I tame those

1063
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 1: before the n I T was seated and everything. And

1064
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 1: so I think air Force I don't think I think,

1065
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 1: I don't want to say they declined the I T,

1066
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 1: but I think they were not. You know, it was

1067
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 1: just it was a really it didn't feel like they

1068
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 1: were really pushing for us to be in the postseason.

1069
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: And you know when I when I talked to Richmond,

1070
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: I felt like there was tremendous commitment and um, you

1071
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 1: know at that stage and how those things work, it was,

1072
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 1: and geographically and who the people were that were here

1073
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: it was. It was great. So I got that, I

1074
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 1: came in, I interviewed, they offered a job, and and uh,

1075
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 1: I was really fortunate that, you know, it was fortunate

1076
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 1: that was later in the in the season. You know,

1077
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 1: people have already changed jobs, and um, fortunate we had

1078
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 1: done well at air Force and it's great to be here. Okay,

1079
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: So you get to Richmond and you're used to now

1080
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: you you'd you'd recruited it hard places for or been

1081
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:57,439
Speaker 1: a you know, a air Force is a hard place.

1082
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: And and Beaver College. What was it like to what's

1083
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 1: it like the recruit to Richmond because people don't know

1084
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: Richmond small school right, less than less than uh five

1085
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 1: thousand students? Uh and and a a really good like

1086
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 1: is it is it just a notch below IVY League?

1087
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 1: Like how good is school academically? Is it? Yeah? So

1088
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: it's a great. It is a great school. Uh, private

1089
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 1: school and really ranked highly really really unique thing about

1090
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 1: Richmond is it's a liberal arts college that has a

1091
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 1: business school undergraduate business school, which is pretty unique. Uh

1092
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, so it was for most people. I would

1093
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: say it was probably really difficult recruiting, you know, to

1094
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: get miss instance CERTs and things come up from the

1095
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 1: Air Force Academy, you know, like would you get anybody?

1096
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: And we certainly appealed to a lot of people. So

1097
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 1: it felt like and you know, I had never had

1098
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: scholarship before because they is not technically a scholars of

1099
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: course Beaver College Division three, so is it felt great

1100
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: And that was the one thing you know, we needed.

1101
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 1: We we only had seven scholarship players my first year.

1102
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 1: That was the one thing, like you had to be

1103
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 1: you be You had to learn how to utilize the scholarships.

1104
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 1: Are you gonna offer one to three kids and it's

1105
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 1: the first guy who takes it? Are you gonna save

1106
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:18,959
Speaker 1: one for the season? Those kinds of things. But yeah,

1107
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 1: for for me, it felt like, you know, we we

1108
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 1: had access to far more players than we did at

1109
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 1: the academy. How long did it take to get it?

1110
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 1: It took you a couple of years to kind of

1111
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: get it going right, it did. Yeah, And you know

1112
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 1: we had we had come in and some guys who

1113
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: had gotten in trouble here um you know, whoever gotten

1114
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 1: in trouble or decided to leave that were they were

1115
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: all guards and so you know, we had to play

1116
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 1: a first year without guards. And then the second year

1117
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 1: we here we I think we started four freshmen like

1118
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 1: twenty of the games, and of course that's going to

1119
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: just be an uphill battle. And then by the third year,

1120
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: I think we finished uh you know, we got to

1121
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 1: buy we finished fourth in the league. Uh and from

1122
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 1: there we were we we were good. But um, but yeah,

1123
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 1: it was it's it's hard. I mean, you know, um,

1124
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 1: people probably don't, you know, a casual fan probably doesn't

1125
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 1: realize just that there are there are very few of

1126
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 1: that it's close to automatic to be good. And and

1127
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 1: even look at North Carolina is having a toughier you know, unimaginable.

1128
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 1: But other than those, it's it's far from automatic, you

1129
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Yeah, no, no, I mean it's

1130
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 1: it's it's every it's a grind every year. It's even

1131
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: worse now. You know, sometimes you get kids now and

1132
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: and they do well, they graduate early, and then they

1133
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: leave you or you know, or or they or they

1134
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: go or you know, you get a kid, you you

1135
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 1: go to League eleven, two thousand eleven, was you know,

1136
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 1: to this point your dream year where you win the

1137
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 1: A ten, You win the A ten tournament, right, you

1138
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:49,960
Speaker 1: get to the you get to the sweet you get

1139
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 1: to the sweet sixteen. Um, how different is it coaching

1140
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: in the n c A Tournament from any other coaching

1141
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 1: you've had, and I know you coached previously previous year

1142
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 1: in the terms well yeah, yeah, yeah, Well it's just

1143
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 1: so um you know, it's like the feeling of a

1144
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 1: big game. Uh. You know, when you played uh Oklahoma

1145
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 1: or Kansas at home, and you know, when you get

1146
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 1: to the arena, it seems like even before even if

1147
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 1: anybody's there, when you're three round as a buzz you know,

1148
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 1: for whatever reason. And the tournament is like that times ten,

1149
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 1: you know, um uh, you know, the arenas filled long

1150
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 1: before the first game, and uh, every everything about the town,

1151
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 1: their hotel, um, you know that the you know, there's

1152
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 1: usually a cluster of hotels and the restaurants. Everything is

1153
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 1: about the n A tournament. You know, a police escort

1154
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 1: to the game. It's just everything has this buzz feeling

1155
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 1: that that's probably one of the hardest things is to

1156
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 1: to treat it as a regular game or to treat

1157
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 1: it your preparation to be normal. Um. And I think

1158
01:01:58,040 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: you see teams kind of trying to get away for

1159
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 1: all of that as best you ten, But I would

1160
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: say that it just feels like like your biggest rivalry

1161
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: game times ten. You've had opportunities to leave in the past,

1162
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 1: and especially after a twenty nine win year at Richmond Um,

1163
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 1: and some of what you've gone through is the reason

1164
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 1: that coaches leave, right you get an extension, but people

1165
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 1: don't realize how hard it is to get back to

1166
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 1: that place. If you could do it all over again,

1167
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 1: would you like, is this the same? Would you take

1168
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 1: the same path that you've taken? Yeah, yeah, that's a

1169
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: good question, I would say. I will tell you that

1170
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 1: I can easily see advising someone to take the other path.

1171
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: In other words, you know, if if you were if

1172
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: it was your uh you know, somebody who are close

1173
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 1: to that you wanted wanted to advise, you know, the

1174
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 1: best way to kind of go about this thing, or

1175
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:54,919
Speaker 1: probably the best way would be, you know, do well

1176
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 1: move on like capitalizing will move on to you know,

1177
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 1: And so I can definitely see that argument, and I

1178
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 1: can I can see why that would be the better strategy.

1179
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 1: You know, For me, it was it was personal at

1180
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 1: the time, which has been um great to me. The

1181
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 1: people here have been good to me. Uh, you know,

1182
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 1: I you know, maybe it's because of my you know,

1183
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 1: my hero and coaching as Pete kill who was at

1184
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 1: Princeton for thirty years. And you know, I've grew up

1185
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 1: a Penn State football fans, so so to me, it

1186
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 1: was personal and I loved the things about the school.

1187
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 1: I embraced the challenges that we have. UM. So, I

1188
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:35,480
Speaker 1: don't know if I would have done it differently. And

1189
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 1: I said, but I could see, you know, that advice

1190
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 1: being pretty strong by somebody who knew what was going on.

1191
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 1: And you know, this year's team you have, you know,

1192
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 1: you have your all your best players are juniors, so

1193
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 1: theoretically everybody back next year and next year you could

1194
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 1: be what what what Dayton is? Um? Your greatest recruiting

1195
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 1: story I got, I got like three minutes. Okay, your

1196
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 1: greatest recruiting story on this team is who? Uh? Great question?

1197
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 1: Let me think here. UM, you know Gilliard was good.

1198
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 1: I felt like, um, you know, Grant Golden is the guy.

1199
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 1: I you know, I feel like we've old. I shouldn't

1200
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 1: say we've you know, Um, every time a team that's

1201
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 1: not in the Power of five does well and the

1202
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 1: feature is on that team's best player and why he

1203
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 1: wasn't recruited higher, you know what I mean. And you know,

1204
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 1: people don't realize, don't be Toppin wasn't doing that when

1205
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 1: he was in high school and he was not that whole.

1206
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 1: And but Golden, I think is probably somebody that we said.

1207
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 1: We said this to a few guys over the hear

1208
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:45,960
Speaker 1: was like that, you're going to be playing as a

1209
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 1: junior senior and we're going to beat up power five opponent,

1210
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 1: and the head coach is going to go into the

1211
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 1: assistant say why the hell didn't we recruit Golden? And

1212
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 1: you know, now at six ten, who can pass and

1213
01:04:56,760 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 1: dribble and foot and score inside. And so I I

1214
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 1: think recruiting him, he was probably the most HONESTUM recruit

1215
01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 1: with UH, with his mom and dad had the most

1216
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 1: accurate questions, and UM was a pleasure to get to

1217
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 1: know and build a relationship with and recruit. And I

1218
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 1: believe that is happening now where everybody would be wondering

1219
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 1: why they why they don't have crankle after at the

1220
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 1: time of this, Okay, and you don't play a dating again.

1221
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 1: You've won four games in a row, you've won seven

1222
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:32,480
Speaker 1: out of your last nine. Obviously, lost Dating at home

1223
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 1: and the VCU, which is an incredible rivalry game. Before

1224
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 1: you came back and Saturday you beat VCU. I mean

1225
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:40,440
Speaker 1: that you went up at home court advantage, right, lose

1226
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 1: by twenty, win by twenty. Uh, maybe you guys are

1227
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 1: probably win again in order to complete the task get

1228
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 1: back to the n c A tournament. What needs to happen? Well,

1229
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:54,440
Speaker 1: you know, uh, we had a six game stal he

1230
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 1: played without Blake Francis, who's our leading score including the

1231
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:00,440
Speaker 1: Dating and VCUS name. So no, I always say I

1232
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 1: wish THENCE would send out Hey, if you win twenty

1233
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: three games or twenty three games or if your next this,

1234
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 1: you know, the only way you can guarantee you to

1235
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 1: win their conference tournament. Uh. The other the other way

1236
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: is you have to you know, you have to build

1237
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 1: this best resume possible and play the teams in front

1238
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 1: of you. Um, and it can be frustrating. I remember

1239
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 1: in two thousand eleven, because these guys are updating their

1240
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:26,040
Speaker 1: pracketology every day. We had beaten Purdue, who was as

1241
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 1: in the country. But by the time February rolled around,

1242
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 1: it was like, you know, the Richmond win over Purdue

1243
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 1: was two months ago that was the game was scheduled.

1244
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,560
Speaker 1: You know. Um so I think what we have to

1245
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 1: do is we have to just keep playing. Is playing well.

1246
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 1: We have opportunities in front of us. Knock them off

1247
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:43,720
Speaker 1: one of the time and hopefully that's going to be

1248
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 1: good enough come come selection Sunday. Last thing, when you

1249
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:50,560
Speaker 1: stand on that on that sideline, um, do you hear?

1250
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:54,120
Speaker 1: Do you do you hear? Pete reel that anything you say? Like?

1251
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:56,160
Speaker 1: Is there are the things you say that You're like,

1252
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 1: I can't believe I just said that, because you know,

1253
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:00,240
Speaker 1: we do that with as parents. We talked and we

1254
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 1: we become our parents. Do you do you ever, embody

1255
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:05,120
Speaker 1: your a little little basketball coach at Princeton when you're

1256
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 1: on the sideline, I do I do? Because my dad

1257
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:10,440
Speaker 1: wasn't all that different from coach Cool. You know. He

1258
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:13,360
Speaker 1: was tough and demanding and especially with sports, and so

1259
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 1: I can hear my assistants here a lot of that

1260
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 1: extremely negative I really tried to steal the players from it.

1261
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 1: Now I've gotten better at that, but extremely negative things

1262
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: that really have very little to do with what happened,

1263
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 1: what just happened, or what mistake just happens. It's amazing.

1264
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: Well listen, It's great to see your team doing so well.

1265
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: It's good to catch up. You need to do so

1266
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,680
Speaker 1: in person. In the meantime. Congrats on the success, keep

1267
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:37,280
Speaker 1: it rolling, and thanks for joining us in the pod.

1268
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 1: Hey do, thanks so much. Man a reminder you can

1269
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:42,800
Speaker 1: hear The dug Outlip Show daily three to six Eastern

1270
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:45,240
Speaker 1: twelve to three Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app. You can also download that podcast,

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Speaker 1: which pops up daily. UM two pods. This week, We'll

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Speaker 1: try and keep popping out as many basketball pods of

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Speaker 1: basketball season as possible. Thanks so much for listening, for downloading,

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Speaker 1: for subscribing, for rating and viewing, and for sending us

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Speaker 1: your tweets on what who else you want to hear

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Speaker 1: as we get you ready for the n c A Tournament.

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Speaker 1: In the meantime, keep listening, keep downloading, keep telling your friends.

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Speaker 1: Tweeted to him, send it to him on Facebook. I'm

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Speaker 1: Doug Gottlieb and this is all ball