WEBVTT - Classic episode - Why is gravity so weird?

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<v Speaker 5>I just think it's fascinating that it's such a fundamental

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<v Speaker 5>force in the universe, right, Like it's basically the thing

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<v Speaker 5>that builds galaxies and keeps planets moving right and gives

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<v Speaker 5>structure to the entire cosmos.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right. On the largest scale, it's actually the most

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<v Speaker 1>important force. It's the reason why things look the way

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<v Speaker 1>they do. It's the reason why our planet is round.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the reason why we're on the planet.

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<v Speaker 5>It's pretty important, and yet we don't know a lot

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<v Speaker 5>about it, right, Like, there's some really deep and strange

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<v Speaker 5>mysteries about it.

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<v Speaker 1>On one hand, we have a theory which works really

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<v Speaker 1>really well. On the other hand, we have questions about

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<v Speaker 1>it which seems really really basic.

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<v Speaker 5>And not only that, it's very different than all the

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<v Speaker 5>other forces of nature.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right, one of these things is not like the

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<v Speaker 1>other ones.

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<v Speaker 5>Hi am morhee.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a cartoonist and I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist.

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<v Speaker 5>And this is our podcast Daniel and Jorge explain the universe.

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<v Speaker 1>In which a cartoonist and a physicists try to figure

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<v Speaker 1>out how to make the universe understandable to anybody.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, and today on the podcast we are examining a

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<v Speaker 5>very heavy topic, gravity and specifically why is gravity so.

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<v Speaker 1>Weak and strange. Gravity, as we said earlier, is something

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<v Speaker 1>which controls the structure of the universe. I mean, the

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<v Speaker 1>reason the Solar System looks the way it does is

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<v Speaker 1>because of gravity. The reason the Earth is round is

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<v Speaker 1>because of gravity. The reason we have galaxies is because

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<v Speaker 1>of gravity.

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<v Speaker 5>The reason we weigh so much is because of gravity. Right,

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<v Speaker 5>it's not my.

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<v Speaker 1>Belt, No, that's because of late night cake eating.

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<v Speaker 5>But it's such a fundamental force of nature, right, Like

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<v Speaker 5>it's present in our everyday life. We spend a lot

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<v Speaker 5>of time thinking about gravity, right, how not to fall down,

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<v Speaker 5>how not to drop things, how to go up buildings,

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<v Speaker 5>how to go down buildings.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, that's right. It seems like one of the most

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<v Speaker 1>important forces. I mean, if you ask people, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>to name a force or what kind of forces the

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<v Speaker 1>experience in their life, gravity is the one that's present

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<v Speaker 1>in their lives.

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<v Speaker 6>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>You're climbing upstairs, you're fighting gravity, you trip, you fall down,

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<v Speaker 1>you're feeling gravity. You look around you. The shape of

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<v Speaker 1>things is controlled by gravity. And that's why it's particularly

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<v Speaker 1>strange that gravity is the weakest force of all the

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<v Speaker 1>forces we've discovered. It's by far the weakest.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's really strange to hear you say that, Like,

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<v Speaker 5>how can gravity be weak? Like, you know, like it's

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<v Speaker 5>keeping the whole Earth together, it's making the entire planet

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<v Speaker 5>swing around, go in a circle, basically. Right. Without gravity,

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<v Speaker 5>we would just shoot off into space.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right. It's a really strange situation. And there's other

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<v Speaker 1>things about gravity we don't understand as well. It's really strange.

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<v Speaker 1>It doesn't play well with the other forces. It's very,

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<v Speaker 1>very weak. It's a total mystery to science, except that

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<v Speaker 1>we have a theory which works beautifully right. We can

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<v Speaker 1>calculate exactly how mercury orbits the sun. We can send

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<v Speaker 1>things in outer space and know with to millimeter precision

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<v Speaker 1>exactly where they're going to land. We have a working

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<v Speaker 1>theory that we can use, right, but we don't understand

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<v Speaker 1>it on a conceptual level. We have these basic, deep

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<v Speaker 1>questions about what gravity is and how the universe works

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<v Speaker 1>because of it.

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<v Speaker 5>So it's a weird question, and maybe one of the

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<v Speaker 5>people hadn't thought about before. So Daniel went out as

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<v Speaker 5>usual and asked people on the street, why do you

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<v Speaker 5>think gravity is so weak?

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<v Speaker 1>Here's what a random selection of folks who were willing

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<v Speaker 1>to talk to me on a Tuesday morning had to

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<v Speaker 1>say about gravity.

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<v Speaker 6>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>I should don't know about that, all right. I thought

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<v Speaker 1>it was a pretty strong force. I don't know, but yeah, because.

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<v Speaker 5>It depends on the distance and it's long range one.

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<v Speaker 5>So that's why we feel it very weak most of

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<v Speaker 5>the time. Cool, No, Okay, I have no I'm sorry,

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<v Speaker 5>it's not very fruitful.

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<v Speaker 3>Hmmm, I have no idea, but I'd be interested in

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<v Speaker 3>finding out why.

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<v Speaker 5>All right, that was that was pretty good. Most people

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<v Speaker 5>weren't surprised when you said gravity's weak.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I feel like if all the questions

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<v Speaker 1>I've asked people, this is the one that flumms them

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<v Speaker 1>the most. You know, people were like, what, I have

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<v Speaker 1>no idea, or they had crazy ideas why gravity must

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<v Speaker 1>be weak. I feel like usually we get one person

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<v Speaker 1>who knows what the answer is or has a good

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<v Speaker 1>clue about what's going on. This time, I feel like

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<v Speaker 1>almost everybody was pretty clueless. I mean, one person said

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<v Speaker 1>I always thought gravity was pretty strong, right, which kind

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<v Speaker 1>of sums up the situation, right. Gravity's omnipresent in our lives.

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<v Speaker 1>It dominates our experience, and yet it's so weak compared

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<v Speaker 1>to the other really powerful forces we've discovered.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, some people a couple of answers were that it

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<v Speaker 5>had to do with distance, like gravity gets really weak

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<v Speaker 5>with distance.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right, And the problem there is that all the

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<v Speaker 1>forces get weak with distance, like electromagnetism also falls as

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<v Speaker 1>a distance grows. Right, So all of these forces follow

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<v Speaker 1>this one over r squared rule or are as your

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<v Speaker 1>distance from the thing that's giving.

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<v Speaker 5>You the force, right, maybe maybe right?

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe yeah, mostly we think, And so that can't be

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<v Speaker 1>the answer, right, because all the other forces have that

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<v Speaker 1>same feature.

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<v Speaker 5>So when you say it's the weak is it's not

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<v Speaker 5>that it changes over distances differently than the other forces.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right. So maybe we should talk about what the

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<v Speaker 1>forces are and compare them to each other so folks

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<v Speaker 1>can get an understanding of how crazy weak gravity is.

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<v Speaker 5>Right. So, Daniel, what are the forces of nature besides

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<v Speaker 5>a bad movie with Ben Affleck than Center Bullet.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think comedy. Comedy is definitely a force of nature.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it solves big problems around the world. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>the fundamental forces are electromagnetism, right, that's the one that

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<v Speaker 1>controls electricity and magnetism obviously, and his responsible for the

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<v Speaker 1>cool things like light and lightning and all that cool stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>And then there's the weak nuclear force, which is a

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<v Speaker 1>force which is responsible for radioactive decay of a nuclei, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And the cool thing about electricity and magnetism and the

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<v Speaker 1>weak nuclear force. Is that we actually have shown that

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<v Speaker 1>there are two sides of the same coin. As a

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<v Speaker 1>particle physicist, we refer to them as one force. We

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<v Speaker 1>call it the electro week. So sort of magnetism lost

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<v Speaker 1>out there in the name merger, right, it should be

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<v Speaker 1>electromagnetic week. But nobody voted to keep magnetism in the

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<v Speaker 1>sort of the name of the partners in a law firm.

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<v Speaker 5>Nobody lobbied for weak electro.

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<v Speaker 1>Or magneto weak force. Yeah, yeah, again, we are suffering

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<v Speaker 1>the fate of some anonymous committee of scientists that get

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<v Speaker 1>to name these things. Right, Who are these people?

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<v Speaker 5>Probably some grad student, right or some you know, like

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<v Speaker 5>this is really weird, we'll call it this.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So we have electricity and magnetism, which is a

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<v Speaker 1>single force. We have the weak nuclear force, which is

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<v Speaker 1>really should be combined with electricity magnetism. And then there's

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<v Speaker 1>the strong nuclear force. And this is the one that

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<v Speaker 1>holds the nucleus together. You know, the nucleus is of

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<v Speaker 1>just a bunch of positively charged protons and neutral neutrons. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>it says only positively charged particles in the nucleus. So

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<v Speaker 1>you might think, what it even holds the nucleus together. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>you have all this positively charged stuff should be repelling themselves. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>it's the strong nuclear force, and it does so by

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<v Speaker 1>exchanging these crazy little particles we call gluons, and that

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<v Speaker 1>holds the nucleus together, and it's pretty strong. It's even

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<v Speaker 1>stronger than electromagnetism.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, let's take a step back. So in the universe

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<v Speaker 5>there's stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>There's like, yes, firm that there is stuff in the universe. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>without reservation, there is stuff.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm glad we saw that question. But I mean it's

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<v Speaker 5>like there's stuff that has substance to it, that has

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<v Speaker 5>mass to it, or you know that it sort of exists.

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<v Speaker 5>And then there's also besides that, how these things interact

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<v Speaker 5>with each other, like how they affect each other.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right. There's the matter and then there's the forces. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>the forces affect how they interact with each other.

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<v Speaker 5>And that's pretty much the universe. That's like, it's matter

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<v Speaker 5>and forces.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, one way to look at the universe is that

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<v Speaker 1>it's particles, right, or you would say matter and their forces.

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<v Speaker 1>In modern particle physics, we think about one level deeper,

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<v Speaker 1>which is we think of quantum fields and quantum fields

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<v Speaker 1>are responsible both for matter and for forces. So we

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<v Speaker 1>can talk about that maybe in another podcast. What is

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<v Speaker 1>a quantum field? And how can I get one? You know,

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<v Speaker 1>for lease or rent? What can they do for me?

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I think it's fair still to think about

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<v Speaker 1>the universe in terms of particles and forces.

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<v Speaker 5>On that note, let's take a quick break.

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0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.720
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0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.800
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0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.880
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0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.920
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0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:14.200
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0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.600
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0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:24.000
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0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.520
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0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.360
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0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.120
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0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:38.080
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0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:40.200
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0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:04.640
<v Speaker 5>There are only four kinds of forces.

0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:08.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there are four kinds of forces. So electromagnetism, weak

0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:12.240
<v Speaker 1>nuclear force, strong nuclear force, and then of course gravity. Right,

0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:14.000
<v Speaker 1>that's the fourth force that we've discovered.

0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:14.480
<v Speaker 5>Okay.

0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:19.440
<v Speaker 1>The fascinating thing is that different particles feel different forces, right, Like,

0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.040
<v Speaker 1>some particles feel this set of forces. Some particles feel

0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:25.800
<v Speaker 1>those set of force for example, right, particles with electric

0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:30.840
<v Speaker 1>charge feel electromagnetism. Right. The electron, for example, is negatively charged,

0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:34.400
<v Speaker 1>the proton is positively charged. You bring them close together,

0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:36.880
<v Speaker 1>they're gonna pull on each other. They're gonna stuck each

0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.400
<v Speaker 1>other together, right, because they have opposite charges. We all

0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:43.160
<v Speaker 1>know that, but you bring a neutral particle nearby, it

0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:46.320
<v Speaker 1>just totally ignores it, right, It doesn't feel it at all. Right, Right,

0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.160
<v Speaker 1>It's like it's like somebody's walking through a crowd of

0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.520
<v Speaker 1>people shouting, but they have headphones on so they can't

0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:53.880
<v Speaker 1>hear anything. They're totally oblivious to it.

0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:55.360
<v Speaker 5>It's kind of like how we talked about in a

0:15:55.360 --> 0:16:00.000
<v Speaker 5>previous podcast. They're almost like languages or like social media platforms.

0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:02.800
<v Speaker 5>Like some people are on Twitter, some people are on Facebook,

0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:04.920
<v Speaker 5>but some people are not on this. And so if somebody,

0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.000
<v Speaker 5>if you're not on Twitter and somebody sends you a tweet,

0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:08.880
<v Speaker 5>you're not going to get it. And so it's just

0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:10.800
<v Speaker 5>different ways that particles interact.

0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:14.440
<v Speaker 1>That's right. Gravity is the Google plus social media, right

0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:21.480
<v Speaker 1>because nobody uses the trends. It's ancient but powerless. Yeah,

0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.280
<v Speaker 1>And so different particles feel different forces. And for example,

0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.720
<v Speaker 1>an electron, while it feels electromagnetism because it has a

0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.840
<v Speaker 1>negative charge, it doesn't feel the strong force at all.

0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:33.360
<v Speaker 1>It will pass right by a bunch of particles that

0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.520
<v Speaker 1>are really tugging on each other with a strong force

0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.280
<v Speaker 1>and not be affected at all. Whereas quarks. Quarks feel

0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.480
<v Speaker 1>all the forces. They feel a strong force, which is

0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.840
<v Speaker 1>how they get pulled together in the nucleus. Remember, protons

0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:48.280
<v Speaker 1>and neutrons are made of quarks. Quarks feel electromagnetism because

0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.080
<v Speaker 1>they have electric charge, they feel the weak force. They

0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.280
<v Speaker 1>also feel gravity, of course, because they have masks. So

0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:55.800
<v Speaker 1>quarks get their fingers in everything.

0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:59.800
<v Speaker 5>They get the feels for everything, They feel everything erect.

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.840
<v Speaker 1>They got the strong feels. Of course, they're really deeply

0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.520
<v Speaker 1>emotional part of that. And on the other side of

0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:10.120
<v Speaker 1>the spectrum, you've got things like neutrinos and trinos don't

0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:14.199
<v Speaker 1>have electric charge, so they ignore all electricity and magnetism. Right,

0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:17.480
<v Speaker 1>they don't interact with light. They're invisible. They pass right

0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:21.720
<v Speaker 1>through anything that They ignore electromagnetic bonds, so they pass

0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.240
<v Speaker 1>through most materials. They don't feel the strong force. The

0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.320
<v Speaker 1>only way they interact is with the weak force. And

0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.960
<v Speaker 1>the weak force is pretty weak, which is why neutrinos

0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:31.879
<v Speaker 1>can mostly just pass through matter unaffected.

0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.000
<v Speaker 5>So we have four fundamental forces, right, and gravity is

0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:40.800
<v Speaker 5>one of these forces. And so when you say that

0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:44.560
<v Speaker 5>gravity is weak, you actually mean it's weak compared to

0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:45.960
<v Speaker 5>these other three forces.

0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.080
<v Speaker 1>That's right. And so the ranking is the strong force

0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:53.200
<v Speaker 1>is the strongest, right, so that one is actually well named. Congratulations,

0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.840
<v Speaker 1>you know anonymous group of scientists. Yeah, we should be

0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.200
<v Speaker 1>called the as of twenty eighteen, currently known to be

0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:04.880
<v Speaker 1>the strongest force force. Right after that comes electromagnetism, and

0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:07.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, we know that force's pretty powerful. You stick

0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:09.200
<v Speaker 1>your finger in the socket, you're gonna feel the wrath

0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.160
<v Speaker 1>of electromagnetism. Right, It's not an unfamiliar feeling.

0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:14.560
<v Speaker 5>Right, try to stick your finger in anything, you feel it, right,

0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:18.360
<v Speaker 5>because it's electromagnetism is the force that keeps you from

0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:23.680
<v Speaker 5>basically passing through the table or passing through your car.

0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:27.880
<v Speaker 1>Right, that's right, because electromagnetism is the basis of chemical bonds, right,

0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:29.879
<v Speaker 1>and chemical bonds are really the thing that form the

0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.400
<v Speaker 1>structure of your body. Right. You think of your body

0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:34.639
<v Speaker 1>is like a bunch of particles, but it's held together

0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.280
<v Speaker 1>by all these forces. It's like a chain link fence

0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.439
<v Speaker 1>binding together these little particles that prevents you from passing

0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.720
<v Speaker 1>through something else. Yeah, So we got the strong force,

0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:47.560
<v Speaker 1>and then electromagnetism and then actually the weak nuclear force. Right,

0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.520
<v Speaker 1>this is the force that like powers neutrinos and radioactive decay.

0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:55.000
<v Speaker 1>It's much weaker than electromagnetism and much weaker than the

0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:55.680
<v Speaker 1>strong force.

0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:58.240
<v Speaker 5>Even weaker than the weak is gravity.

0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:01.919
<v Speaker 1>That's right. If you make a list like strong force, electromagnetism,

0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:04.000
<v Speaker 1>in the weak force, then you should leave like one

0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:07.760
<v Speaker 1>hundred blank pages, and then you get to gravity. Because

0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.120
<v Speaker 1>when we compare these forces, we put things like an

0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.200
<v Speaker 1>equal distance apart, and we compare the strength of the forces.

0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:17.960
<v Speaker 1>Gravity is ten to the thirty six times weaker than

0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:21.960
<v Speaker 1>the weak force. That's ten with thirty six zeros in

0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:22.480
<v Speaker 1>front of it.

0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:26.280
<v Speaker 5>But isn't that sort of a matter of units or scale?

0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:28.760
<v Speaker 5>Do you know what I mean? Like, it's much weaker,

0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:32.399
<v Speaker 5>but only if you compare apples to apples, right, or

0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:33.040
<v Speaker 5>just oranges.

0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:35.359
<v Speaker 1>That's right, But put two protons next to each other, right,

0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.320
<v Speaker 1>h Two protons have a certain amount of mass and

0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:40.920
<v Speaker 1>a certain amount of electric charge, and the force of

0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:43.520
<v Speaker 1>their charges is going to be much much stronger than

0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:44.679
<v Speaker 1>the force from their masses.

0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:45.240
<v Speaker 5>Oh I see.

0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:48.040
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, if everything was much much more massive, then

0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.560
<v Speaker 1>there would be stronger gravity. But you can compare these

0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:52.560
<v Speaker 1>things apples to apples by comparing them at you know

0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.480
<v Speaker 1>the same distance and the same basic unit of interaction.

0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:57.240
<v Speaker 5>Right, But what if you take an apple put it

0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:58.200
<v Speaker 5>next to another apple?

0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:01.280
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think you can do that experiment. Nothing's going

0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.640
<v Speaker 1>to happen because gravity is so weak. Right. You don't

0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.280
<v Speaker 1>see two apples like pulling themselves together on the counter, right,

0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.679
<v Speaker 1>And though built in apple collider, you know the apples

0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:12.200
<v Speaker 1>are not drawn to each other. Gravity is a super

0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:14.280
<v Speaker 1>weak force, and you can see this yourself. Right, you

0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:18.520
<v Speaker 1>can do an experiment where you counter the entire gravitational

0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.680
<v Speaker 1>force of an enormous celestial body like the Earth. Right,

0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.240
<v Speaker 1>take a small kitchen magnet and use it to hold

0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:27.520
<v Speaker 1>up a nail, and think about what's happening there, right,

0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:31.040
<v Speaker 1>You have the nail is being pulled down by every

0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.560
<v Speaker 1>single rock in the Earth. It's pulling with all of

0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.520
<v Speaker 1>its gravity. But a tiny little kitchen magnet totally overcomes that.

0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.320
<v Speaker 5>It can lift a nail even though it's pulling, it's

0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.119
<v Speaker 5>being pulled down by the whole entire planet Earth.

0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:47.440
<v Speaker 1>Right exactly. Now, imagine a magnet the size of the Earth, right,

0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.720
<v Speaker 1>I mean that would be that would be extraordinarily powerful.

0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:54.159
<v Speaker 1>And so you have basically like a gravitational blob the

0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:58.160
<v Speaker 1>size of the Earth still pretty ineffective compared to electromagnetism.

0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:03.640
<v Speaker 5>Mmmm, so it's weak if you sort of compare it

0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:06.359
<v Speaker 5>by object, Like you said, if you take a proton

0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.560
<v Speaker 5>and put an extra proton, the force are going to

0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:13.120
<v Speaker 5>feel from electromagnetism is so much bigger than the force

0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:15.480
<v Speaker 5>of gravity. They're going to feel towards each other the

0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:19.360
<v Speaker 5>same with like two electrons or two quarks and things.

0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:22.399
<v Speaker 5>So in the scale of like the particles that we know, it's.

0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:26.359
<v Speaker 1>A really weak force, that's right, exactly, And yet and

0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:28.600
<v Speaker 1>yet it seems to dominate, right. That's a bit of

0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:31.480
<v Speaker 1>a puzzle, Like, on one hand, it's super duper weak,

0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:33.359
<v Speaker 1>and we're telling you that it hardly counts for anything.

0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:35.879
<v Speaker 1>On the other hand, it's responsible for the structure of

0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:38.119
<v Speaker 1>the Solar System, man for the galaxy, and it's the

0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:40.600
<v Speaker 1>reason the universe looks the way it is, right, right,

0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:42.440
<v Speaker 1>And so that can be confusing to people, Like how

0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:44.320
<v Speaker 1>do you reconcile those two things in your head?

0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:47.440
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, Like, why doesn't the Earth feel an electromagnetic force

0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:50.200
<v Speaker 5>with the Sun, which it would be so much bigger

0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:51.880
<v Speaker 5>than the force of gravity.

0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:55.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, it would be pretty shocking, And that's actually

0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:58.280
<v Speaker 1>the reason is gravity is different from the other forces

0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:00.880
<v Speaker 1>and that it can't be canceled out. Right, if there

0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:04.160
<v Speaker 1>was some huge electrostatic difference between the Sun and the Earth,

0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:06.040
<v Speaker 1>like a bunch of positive charges there and a bunch

0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:09.400
<v Speaker 1>of negative charges here, it would create such an enormous

0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:13.240
<v Speaker 1>force that it would be very quickly balanced. Like that's

0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:16.359
<v Speaker 1>what lightning is. Right. When there's a charge differential between

0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:20.399
<v Speaker 1>clouds and the grounds, it doesn't take that much before

0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:23.800
<v Speaker 1>those charges want to rearrange themselves to a lower energy configuration.

0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:25.879
<v Speaker 1>They rush down to the ground, or they'd rush up

0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.000
<v Speaker 1>to the clouds, or they jump the cloud cloud to

0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:30.960
<v Speaker 1>balance themselves out. Because you have two kinds of charges,

0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:33.640
<v Speaker 1>you have positive and you have negative, so you can

0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:37.440
<v Speaker 1>find an arrangement where basically everybody's happy. It's an equilibrium, right,

0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:39.720
<v Speaker 1>But that's not true for gravity.

0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:41.359
<v Speaker 5>Okay, I get it. So for example, if the Earth

0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:45.760
<v Speaker 5>was every particle on Earth had a positive electromagnetic charge,

0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:49.600
<v Speaker 5>and every particle in the Sun had a negative electromagnetic charge,

0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:55.159
<v Speaker 5>there would be a humongous pull from electromagnetism, pulling the

0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:56.040
<v Speaker 5>Earth into the Sun.

0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:58.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we'd be toased pretty quick Yeah.

0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:03.119
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, would be huge. Even the opposite. If we were

0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:05.440
<v Speaker 5>all positive and the Sun was all positive, we would

0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:08.560
<v Speaker 5>get shot out of the Solar system very quickly.

0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:10.840
<v Speaker 1>That's right. And that's why you know, early days of

0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:14.280
<v Speaker 1>the Solar system being formed, you have these gases and

0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:18.760
<v Speaker 1>the gas and dust coalescing and very rapidly things neutralize, right,

0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:22.480
<v Speaker 1>because anything that feels an electrostatic force to something else

0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:25.000
<v Speaker 1>is going to find the opposite charge and they're going

0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:27.000
<v Speaker 1>to coalesce and they're going to make something neutral. Right.

0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:29.760
<v Speaker 1>That's why most of the things around you are neutral, right,

0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:33.520
<v Speaker 1>Most of the elements are neutral, because any deviation from

0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:36.520
<v Speaker 1>neutral results in a powerful force to neutralize it.

0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:39.639
<v Speaker 5>So, thankfully the Earth is made out of both like

0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:43.680
<v Speaker 5>equal amounts of positive and negative particles, right, that's right.

0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:47.600
<v Speaker 5>Thankfully we're sort of balanced electromagnetically, and so even if

0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:51.040
<v Speaker 5>the Sun was all positive, we would look like neutral,

0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:52.800
<v Speaker 5>like a neutral ball to the Sun.

0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:56.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right. Where on large scales the Earth is neutral, right,

0:23:56.160 --> 0:23:58.919
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there might be some residual positive or negative

0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:02.160
<v Speaker 1>charge depending on the solar wind, et cetera. But basically

0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:05.000
<v Speaker 1>the Earth is neutral, and so the largest force of

0:24:05.040 --> 0:24:07.720
<v Speaker 1>the Earth feels is the gravity from the sun, even

0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:10.600
<v Speaker 1>though gravity is super duper weak, right, it doesn't take

0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:12.800
<v Speaker 1>a lot to counteract gravity. But it's the only player

0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:15.360
<v Speaker 1>left because everybody else is sort of pair it up

0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:18.520
<v Speaker 1>and danced off for the night, and gravity's just there left,

0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:21.640
<v Speaker 1>hold in the bag. And gravity can't be balanced, right.

0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:24.520
<v Speaker 1>You feel gravity if you have any mass. Right, there's

0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:28.040
<v Speaker 1>only positive masses, no such thing as a negative mass

0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:29.480
<v Speaker 1>to give anti gravity.

0:24:29.920 --> 0:24:33.240
<v Speaker 5>Wow, well, let's keep going, but first let's take a

0:24:33.320 --> 0:24:49.640
<v Speaker 5>quick break. Okay, So that's how gravity is so much

0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:53.280
<v Speaker 5>weaker than the other forces. So how's it different than

0:24:53.280 --> 0:24:55.080
<v Speaker 5>the other three forces of nature?

0:24:55.240 --> 0:24:58.600
<v Speaker 1>There's like no end to waste. The gravity is weird,

0:24:58.640 --> 0:25:00.600
<v Speaker 1>you know, there's no end to like the puzzles of

0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:02.200
<v Speaker 1>gravity is fascinating.

0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:02.480
<v Speaker 5>Bottomless pit.

0:25:03.520 --> 0:25:07.600
<v Speaker 1>That's right, it's a black hole of questions. And one

0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:10.000
<v Speaker 1>of my favorites is just that we have no way

0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:12.919
<v Speaker 1>to sort of fit gravity in with the way the

0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:15.880
<v Speaker 1>universe works according to everything else. You know, we talked

0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:18.480
<v Speaker 1>earlier about how we have particles and we have forces

0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:22.800
<v Speaker 1>or quantum fields equivalently, and that's a really successful way

0:25:22.800 --> 0:25:24.720
<v Speaker 1>to describe the universe. You know, we have the Large

0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:27.560
<v Speaker 1>Hadron Collider to explore these things really high energies. And

0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:31.159
<v Speaker 1>we've understood all sorts of things using this theory, but

0:25:31.200 --> 0:25:34.440
<v Speaker 1>that theory is used as quantum mechanics. So the way

0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:37.360
<v Speaker 1>we describe interactions, you know, the way we talk about

0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:40.919
<v Speaker 1>two electrons repelling each other, or the way lightning is

0:25:40.960 --> 0:25:44.840
<v Speaker 1>formed or anything, involves passing quantum particles back and forth.

0:25:45.119 --> 0:25:46.640
<v Speaker 1>And that's just not true for gravity.

0:25:47.119 --> 0:25:49.879
<v Speaker 5>What does that mean? Passing particles back and forth? Like

0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:53.880
<v Speaker 5>when like if I have two magnets and they're attracted

0:25:53.880 --> 0:25:56.040
<v Speaker 5>to each other, they're not. They're not It's not like

0:25:56.040 --> 0:26:00.199
<v Speaker 5>an invisible telekinesis pulling on each other. They're actually swapping particles,

0:26:00.200 --> 0:26:01.800
<v Speaker 5>and I can see that is that kind of what

0:26:01.800 --> 0:26:02.120
<v Speaker 5>do you mean?

0:26:02.280 --> 0:26:05.600
<v Speaker 1>That's exactly what I mean. That the way two things

0:26:05.640 --> 0:26:09.199
<v Speaker 1>interact via some force is by exchanging particles. And so

0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:13.280
<v Speaker 1>for example, electromagnetism, right, is the force behind a magnet.

0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:16.160
<v Speaker 1>And the way electromagnetism works, we think at a sort

0:26:16.160 --> 0:26:19.560
<v Speaker 1>of microscopic particle level, is that there's a particle that

0:26:19.600 --> 0:26:22.760
<v Speaker 1>transmits that force, that sends sort of the information back

0:26:22.800 --> 0:26:25.520
<v Speaker 1>and forth between two things that are feeling it and

0:26:25.560 --> 0:26:29.320
<v Speaker 1>in the case of electromagnetism, that particle is the photon. Right,

0:26:29.520 --> 0:26:32.480
<v Speaker 1>the particle is also a packet of light. So each

0:26:32.520 --> 0:26:36.040
<v Speaker 1>of the quantum forces that we talked about before, electromagnetism,

0:26:36.320 --> 0:26:38.720
<v Speaker 1>the weak force and the strong force, each of them

0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:41.479
<v Speaker 1>have a particle we associate with it. And that's not

0:26:41.560 --> 0:26:44.240
<v Speaker 1>just like some name tag we put on and say, hey,

0:26:44.280 --> 0:26:46.200
<v Speaker 1>you get this one, you get this one. We think

0:26:46.240 --> 0:26:49.600
<v Speaker 1>that that's the particle that's responsible for making the force work.

0:26:50.000 --> 0:26:52.800
<v Speaker 1>So when two electrons come near each other, how do

0:26:52.840 --> 0:26:55.560
<v Speaker 1>they repel each other? How does that actually happen? Well,

0:26:55.600 --> 0:26:58.800
<v Speaker 1>we think that they send photons out right, the electric

0:26:58.880 --> 0:27:03.840
<v Speaker 1>field of a moving electron, right, and accelerating electron generates photons,

0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:07.960
<v Speaker 1>and those photons interact with the other electrons, and so

0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:12.399
<v Speaker 1>basically the passing messages back and forth using these quantum particles.

0:27:12.720 --> 0:27:16.040
<v Speaker 5>So gravity is weird because we don't know that there

0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:19.520
<v Speaker 5>is a quantum particle being exchanged when two things get

0:27:19.520 --> 0:27:20.840
<v Speaker 5>attracted gravitationally.

0:27:21.040 --> 0:27:23.400
<v Speaker 1>That's right, So we have this great framework. We say, oh,

0:27:23.640 --> 0:27:28.920
<v Speaker 1>maybe all forces are quantum mechanical fields interacting with each other. Right,

0:27:29.000 --> 0:27:31.520
<v Speaker 1>Let's apply that to the electromagnetic field. Yeah, it works.

0:27:31.680 --> 0:27:33.639
<v Speaker 1>Let's apply that to the weak force. Yeah it works.

0:27:33.760 --> 0:27:36.080
<v Speaker 1>Let's apply to the strong force. Ooh, cool, it works.

0:27:36.280 --> 0:27:38.560
<v Speaker 1>Maybe this is something deep about the way the universe works.

0:27:38.720 --> 0:27:42.040
<v Speaker 1>Let's apply it to gravity. Uh. Oh, it doesn't work right,

0:27:43.880 --> 0:27:45.320
<v Speaker 1>So what does that mean? What does it mean when

0:27:45.359 --> 0:27:47.920
<v Speaker 1>I say it doesn't work? Well? For a theory to work,

0:27:48.240 --> 0:27:51.639
<v Speaker 1>it has to provide predictions for experiments. You have to

0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:54.359
<v Speaker 1>be able to say, okay, theory, what would happen in

0:27:54.400 --> 0:27:57.960
<v Speaker 1>this configuration if I shot a proton and another particle.

0:27:58.400 --> 0:28:00.520
<v Speaker 1>Predict what would happen, and then you can often do

0:28:00.560 --> 0:28:03.479
<v Speaker 1>the experiments and compare it right. Well, when you do

0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:05.800
<v Speaker 1>that for gravity, you try to form a quantum theory

0:28:05.840 --> 0:28:09.479
<v Speaker 1>of gravity, it doesn't work. You get nonsense answers. You

0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:13.040
<v Speaker 1>get answers like infinity right, or things disappear, or it

0:28:13.200 --> 0:28:16.600
<v Speaker 1>just it doesn't mathematically function Like, there's no way to

0:28:16.720 --> 0:28:19.840
<v Speaker 1>build a theory of gravity that we've discovered so far

0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:23.399
<v Speaker 1>that works, that actually explains the way these things happen.

0:28:24.200 --> 0:28:26.800
<v Speaker 1>There are a few candidates out there there pretty far

0:28:26.840 --> 0:28:30.199
<v Speaker 1>from being a functional theory of quantum gravity, things like

0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:33.280
<v Speaker 1>loop quantm gravity or string theory, but the basic problem

0:28:33.480 --> 0:28:37.159
<v Speaker 1>is that quantum mechanics and general relativity, which is our

0:28:37.200 --> 0:28:39.760
<v Speaker 1>best theory of gravity, do not play well together and

0:28:39.840 --> 0:28:42.320
<v Speaker 1>we have no functioning quantum theory of gravity.

0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:45.840
<v Speaker 5>So does that mean that we don't have the right

0:28:45.880 --> 0:28:49.680
<v Speaker 5>theory or is that gravity is just not quantum in nature?

0:28:49.960 --> 0:28:52.200
<v Speaker 1>That's exactly the question we don't know the answer to.

0:28:52.480 --> 0:28:54.760
<v Speaker 1>Right In one hundred years from now, somebody will know

0:28:54.800 --> 0:28:56.560
<v Speaker 1>the answer to that, I hope, and they'll look back

0:28:56.600 --> 0:28:58.680
<v Speaker 1>and they'll wonder, you know, why did those guys see

0:28:58.680 --> 0:29:01.320
<v Speaker 1>the clues? But we don't know. It could be that

0:29:01.360 --> 0:29:03.640
<v Speaker 1>there is a quantum theory gravity, we're just not smart

0:29:03.720 --> 0:29:05.400
<v Speaker 1>enough to think it up yet, right, Like the right

0:29:05.480 --> 0:29:08.280
<v Speaker 1>person hasn't been born yet to put the math together,

0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:10.320
<v Speaker 1>or maybe it requires a different kind of math that

0:29:10.320 --> 0:29:14.000
<v Speaker 1>we're using. Right, there's some assumption we're making that's a mistake.

0:29:13.840 --> 0:29:15.920
<v Speaker 5>Or maybe just giving it a wrong name, like maybe

0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:25.160
<v Speaker 5>it should be gravit tunis or gravitinos gravitas. That's taken exactly.

0:29:26.080 --> 0:29:28.200
<v Speaker 1>That's definitely the problem. That's step number one, when we

0:29:28.240 --> 0:29:29.840
<v Speaker 1>made a mistake in step number one, when we could

0:29:29.880 --> 0:29:33.280
<v Speaker 1>define the particle. The other option, of course, is that

0:29:33.320 --> 0:29:35.840
<v Speaker 1>maybe gravity is not a quantum force the way the

0:29:35.880 --> 0:29:38.360
<v Speaker 1>other forces are. Right. The other forces we call them

0:29:38.400 --> 0:29:41.959
<v Speaker 1>quantum forces because they're well described by quantum mechanics. But

0:29:42.000 --> 0:29:44.920
<v Speaker 1>gravity is kind of different. I mean, the current theory

0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:48.400
<v Speaker 1>we have a gravity general relativity. It doesn't like to

0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:51.440
<v Speaker 1>describe gravity as a force, right, describes gravity instead as

0:29:51.480 --> 0:29:54.479
<v Speaker 1>a bending of space. It says that when you have

0:29:54.720 --> 0:29:59.600
<v Speaker 1>mass somewhere in space, space no longer becomes straight, becomes bent. Right,

0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:01.880
<v Speaker 1>things move in curves and circles.

0:30:02.120 --> 0:30:05.760
<v Speaker 5>And it's not like an actual just a mathematical nuance

0:30:05.840 --> 0:30:09.080
<v Speaker 5>or a mathematical perspective. What really confirms is it is

0:30:09.720 --> 0:30:13.440
<v Speaker 5>the idea that gravity can affect things that don't have mass. Right,

0:30:13.440 --> 0:30:15.880
<v Speaker 5>That's how we know it's more than just a force

0:30:15.920 --> 0:30:19.520
<v Speaker 5>between things that have mass. It actually like affects space

0:30:19.600 --> 0:30:20.920
<v Speaker 5>for things that don't have mass.

0:30:21.000 --> 0:30:23.600
<v Speaker 1>Right, that's exactly right. So if you shoot a photon

0:30:24.240 --> 0:30:27.960
<v Speaker 1>through space that has mass nearby, the photon will not

0:30:28.080 --> 0:30:30.240
<v Speaker 1>move in what we consider to be a straight line, right,

0:30:30.640 --> 0:30:33.840
<v Speaker 1>It'll find a path through this bent space that involves

0:30:33.880 --> 0:30:37.400
<v Speaker 1>basically curving. And this is what Einstein predicted with his theory,

0:30:37.200 --> 0:30:39.600
<v Speaker 1>and they saw it, you know, and you can see

0:30:39.920 --> 0:30:42.920
<v Speaker 1>in space. It's called gravitational lensing. You can see photons

0:30:42.920 --> 0:30:46.160
<v Speaker 1>get bent by heavy objects, and it's because, as you say,

0:30:46.200 --> 0:30:48.480
<v Speaker 1>the heavy objects are bending space itself.

0:30:48.840 --> 0:30:51.680
<v Speaker 5>Right, It's not like gravity is pulling the photon because

0:30:51.840 --> 0:30:53.640
<v Speaker 5>the photon doesn't have any mass.

0:30:53.720 --> 0:30:55.880
<v Speaker 1>Right, that's right, the photon doesn't have any mass.

0:30:55.960 --> 0:30:59.280
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, So that's how it's different. Like gravity seems to

0:30:59.320 --> 0:31:03.440
<v Speaker 5>affect things that don't have sort of its fundamental property,

0:31:03.560 --> 0:31:07.280
<v Speaker 5>you know, like electrominetic forces can affect something that does

0:31:07.360 --> 0:31:08.720
<v Speaker 5>not have an electric charge.

0:31:08.760 --> 0:31:09.200
<v Speaker 1>That's true.

0:31:09.200 --> 0:31:11.440
<v Speaker 5>Gravity can affect thing everything else, right.

0:31:11.640 --> 0:31:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a pretty deep insight there, Not that for

0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:19.760
<v Speaker 1>a cartoonist, not at all. Yeah, that's a fascinating way

0:31:19.800 --> 0:31:22.440
<v Speaker 1>to think about it. I think that's totally correct. Yeah.

0:31:22.440 --> 0:31:25.040
<v Speaker 1>And so if gravity is instead of being a force,

0:31:25.080 --> 0:31:28.320
<v Speaker 1>if it's a way we change the shape of space itself,

0:31:28.360 --> 0:31:30.680
<v Speaker 1>then maybe that's why we don't have a quantum theory

0:31:30.720 --> 0:31:33.760
<v Speaker 1>of it. Right. And that's amazing and it's fantastic and

0:31:33.800 --> 0:31:36.960
<v Speaker 1>it's exciting. And another reason why we have a hard

0:31:37.000 --> 0:31:40.280
<v Speaker 1>time bringing these two things together is that quantum mechanics,

0:31:40.520 --> 0:31:44.040
<v Speaker 1>the theory we've developed only works so far in flat space.

0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:47.760
<v Speaker 1>That is if there's really heavy stuff nearby, we don't

0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:50.600
<v Speaker 1>know how to do those quantum calculations. We can basically

0:31:50.640 --> 0:31:53.440
<v Speaker 1>only do quantum mechanics in places where there isn't really

0:31:53.440 --> 0:31:54.280
<v Speaker 1>strong gravity.

0:31:54.600 --> 0:31:59.000
<v Speaker 5>So wait, it's a quantum physics doesn't work in reality basically?

0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:01.880
<v Speaker 5>Is that what you're saying? Like, it doesn't work in

0:32:02.960 --> 0:32:04.520
<v Speaker 5>the space that we actually live in.

0:32:04.840 --> 0:32:08.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, it works basically everywhere except for close to black holes.

0:32:08.400 --> 0:32:11.840
<v Speaker 1>M Right. You need basically a black hole have enough

0:32:11.840 --> 0:32:15.240
<v Speaker 1>gravity to break down quantum mechanics because it's when when

0:32:15.320 --> 0:32:17.920
<v Speaker 1>space gets really distorted that you start to see the

0:32:17.920 --> 0:32:21.640
<v Speaker 1>effects of gravity on space, and then it becomes comparable

0:32:21.680 --> 0:32:24.360
<v Speaker 1>to the strength of other stuff, and that's when that's

0:32:24.360 --> 0:32:27.400
<v Speaker 1>when quantum mechanics breaks down. Yeah, quantum quantum field theory

0:32:27.480 --> 0:32:31.480
<v Speaker 1>works basically what we call flat space, whereas gravity bends space.

0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:39.160
<v Speaker 5>Wow, so earlier when we categorize gravity as part of

0:32:39.200 --> 0:32:42.240
<v Speaker 5>these four fundamental forces, maybe that's just the wrong approach.

0:32:42.320 --> 0:32:43.560
<v Speaker 5>Maybe you know, do you know what I mean? Like,

0:32:43.640 --> 0:32:48.080
<v Speaker 5>maybe we shouldn't be categorizing these four things as one

0:32:48.160 --> 0:32:50.160
<v Speaker 5>category of quote forces.

0:32:51.040 --> 0:32:52.920
<v Speaker 1>That's right. It could be could be that there is

0:32:53.000 --> 0:32:55.960
<v Speaker 1>no quantum theory of gravity as a fundamental force because

0:32:56.000 --> 0:33:00.000
<v Speaker 1>it isn't one. Yeah, and it's just a feature of space, right, Absolutely,

0:33:00.000 --> 0:33:02.960
<v Speaker 1>it's one possible explanation. But then we still need a

0:33:03.560 --> 0:33:06.239
<v Speaker 1>way to make quantum mechanics work in bent space, right,

0:33:06.280 --> 0:33:09.600
<v Speaker 1>And we still need to understand how to make our

0:33:09.680 --> 0:33:12.840
<v Speaker 1>theory of general relativity play well with quantum mechanics, because

0:33:12.840 --> 0:33:15.960
<v Speaker 1>we think quantum mechanics describes the universe, right, and general

0:33:15.960 --> 0:33:20.040
<v Speaker 1>relativity is not a quantized theory. It's it's continuous, right.

0:33:20.080 --> 0:33:23.920
<v Speaker 1>It treats space and everything as if it's infinitely divisible, right,

0:33:24.280 --> 0:33:26.000
<v Speaker 1>it's not a quantum theory at all, in fact that

0:33:26.080 --> 0:33:29.200
<v Speaker 1>it came about before quantum mechanics was even invented. And

0:33:29.240 --> 0:33:31.440
<v Speaker 1>so while the basic tenets of it how it distorted

0:33:31.480 --> 0:33:34.760
<v Speaker 1>space are probably correct, i mean, been verified to zillion

0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:37.720
<v Speaker 1>degrees of accuracy, it doesn't feel like it can be

0:33:37.800 --> 0:33:41.240
<v Speaker 1>a fundamental description of nature because it's not quantum mechanical.

0:33:41.560 --> 0:33:43.640
<v Speaker 5>So, like we want to call it a force because

0:33:43.640 --> 0:33:46.560
<v Speaker 5>it seems to move things like all the other forces,

0:33:47.000 --> 0:33:49.080
<v Speaker 5>but it's maybe it's not a force. Maybe it's just

0:33:49.160 --> 0:33:52.280
<v Speaker 5>kind of like some other weird property of space.

0:33:52.680 --> 0:33:54.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. You know, maybe we've been trying to put

0:33:54.960 --> 0:33:57.640
<v Speaker 1>a round peg into a square hole all these years.

0:33:59.240 --> 0:34:00.920
<v Speaker 5>A gravity peg in a quantum hole.

0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:04.480
<v Speaker 1>That's right, that's right. And there are other ways that

0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:06.520
<v Speaker 1>people are trying to solve this problem. Like one way

0:34:06.640 --> 0:34:09.360
<v Speaker 1>is thinking that maybe gravity is a fundamental force, but

0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:11.720
<v Speaker 1>it just works a little bit differently from the other forces.

0:34:12.040 --> 0:34:14.839
<v Speaker 1>For example, people think about how the universe might have

0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:18.120
<v Speaker 1>additional spatial dimensions, you know, like instead of just being

0:34:18.160 --> 0:34:20.560
<v Speaker 1>able to move in three directions, maybe there's like four

0:34:20.680 --> 0:34:23.279
<v Speaker 1>or five six dimensions that you can move in. And

0:34:23.320 --> 0:34:25.080
<v Speaker 1>folks who are interested in that should listen to our

0:34:25.320 --> 0:34:26.840
<v Speaker 1>podcast on extra dimensions.

0:34:27.080 --> 0:34:27.160
<v Speaker 6>No.

0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:29.239
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, we did a whole episode on extra dimensions, but

0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:31.880
<v Speaker 5>we didn't sort of get into this particular topic. So

0:34:31.960 --> 0:34:36.360
<v Speaker 5>tell us how extra dimensions might explain why gravity is

0:34:36.400 --> 0:34:36.840
<v Speaker 5>so weak.

0:34:37.160 --> 0:34:39.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. The idea is that maybe gravity isn't so weak.

0:34:39.960 --> 0:34:43.120
<v Speaker 1>Maybe gravity is just as strong as all the other forces.

0:34:43.680 --> 0:34:46.839
<v Speaker 1>But if there's a whole other set of dimensions out

0:34:46.840 --> 0:34:50.600
<v Speaker 1>there that's ways directions that think can move, it might

0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:54.200
<v Speaker 1>be that gravity is the only thing that feels those dimensions, right.

0:34:54.239 --> 0:34:57.279
<v Speaker 1>It might be that those dimensions are invisible to electromagnetism

0:34:57.600 --> 0:34:59.640
<v Speaker 1>and to the weak force into the strong force, but

0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:03.839
<v Speaker 1>to gravity, and what that means is that gravity might

0:35:03.840 --> 0:35:07.080
<v Speaker 1>be basically leaking out into those other dimensions. You know,

0:35:07.120 --> 0:35:09.960
<v Speaker 1>we talked about how the farther away you get from something,

0:35:10.000 --> 0:35:13.080
<v Speaker 1>the weaker the forces. So like Mercury feels the force

0:35:13.120 --> 0:35:16.319
<v Speaker 1>of the Sun's gravity much more strongly than Pluto does. Right,

0:35:16.560 --> 0:35:18.320
<v Speaker 1>irrelevanti of whether or not you call it a planet,

0:35:18.400 --> 0:35:21.120
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't feel gravity very strongly. And that's because it's

0:35:21.120 --> 0:35:22.880
<v Speaker 1>further from the Sun, right. I mean that goes like

0:35:22.920 --> 0:35:25.879
<v Speaker 1>one over are squared or are is the distance it's

0:35:25.920 --> 0:35:28.719
<v Speaker 1>one of our squared because we have three dimensions. If

0:35:28.719 --> 0:35:32.439
<v Speaker 1>we had six dimensions, it would be one over R five, right,

0:35:32.520 --> 0:35:36.320
<v Speaker 1>which falls much more rapidly. So if there are additional

0:35:36.360 --> 0:35:40.680
<v Speaker 1>dimensions out there, okay, and only gravity feels them, then

0:35:40.760 --> 0:35:44.600
<v Speaker 1>that might be the reason why gravitational force falls so quickly.

0:35:44.880 --> 0:35:47.520
<v Speaker 1>Maybe gravity's actually just as strong as everything else when

0:35:47.560 --> 0:35:50.840
<v Speaker 1>you get really really close, But then these extra dimensions exist,

0:35:50.880 --> 0:35:53.680
<v Speaker 1>and most of gravity leaks out into those other dimensions.

0:35:53.960 --> 0:35:57.360
<v Speaker 5>Oh, sort of like between you and me, there's not

0:35:57.520 --> 0:36:00.359
<v Speaker 5>just the three dimensions between you and me Ei, there

0:36:00.400 --> 0:36:03.880
<v Speaker 5>are other secret hidden spaces kind of between you and me.

0:36:04.239 --> 0:36:05.920
<v Speaker 5>Are these other dimensions.

0:36:06.120 --> 0:36:09.200
<v Speaker 1>Exactly other ways for gravity to spread out, all right.

0:36:09.239 --> 0:36:11.239
<v Speaker 5>And so gravity would be like just as strong as

0:36:11.320 --> 0:36:14.600
<v Speaker 5>all the other forces. But it's just flessing its muscles

0:36:14.640 --> 0:36:18.640
<v Speaker 5>in these other spaces that we can't see or feel exactly.

0:36:18.719 --> 0:36:20.480
<v Speaker 1>It's like, you know, if somebody's at the center of

0:36:20.480 --> 0:36:23.080
<v Speaker 1>a crowd and they let go a really stinky far right,

0:36:23.120 --> 0:36:25.440
<v Speaker 1>the people next to them they smell it strongly, and

0:36:25.440 --> 0:36:27.960
<v Speaker 1>the people further away they smell it much more weakly,

0:36:28.000 --> 0:36:29.960
<v Speaker 1>and people outside don't smell it at all.

0:36:29.840 --> 0:36:33.000
<v Speaker 5>All right, now imagine the farts really suddenly. But let's

0:36:33.080 --> 0:36:34.000
<v Speaker 5>let's let's go with it.

0:36:34.120 --> 0:36:36.520
<v Speaker 1>Hey, I'm trying to make this successible. You know, this

0:36:36.600 --> 0:36:37.760
<v Speaker 1>is something everybody canna.

0:36:37.520 --> 0:36:39.759
<v Speaker 5>Appreciate trying to make way, I get it cut it.

0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:44.160
<v Speaker 1>But if there was somewhere else for that far to go,

0:36:44.239 --> 0:36:46.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, if it could move not just sideways, but

0:36:46.719 --> 0:36:48.960
<v Speaker 1>also could float up right, so you had a really

0:36:49.040 --> 0:36:51.880
<v Speaker 1>tall room in the far floated up, then people wouldn't

0:36:51.880 --> 0:36:53.640
<v Speaker 1>feel it as much because most of the far would

0:36:53.640 --> 0:36:57.319
<v Speaker 1>dissipate into the upper corners of the room. And so

0:36:57.480 --> 0:36:59.239
<v Speaker 1>gravity might be the same way. It might be that

0:36:59.440 --> 0:37:02.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, for the first millimeters, so the first centimeters,

0:37:02.200 --> 0:37:06.239
<v Speaker 1>so gravity gets very weak, very quickly. It falls off

0:37:06.320 --> 0:37:09.440
<v Speaker 1>really rapidly, and that then you know, at normal distances

0:37:09.480 --> 0:37:11.799
<v Speaker 1>like a meter or ten meters or whatever, you don't

0:37:11.800 --> 0:37:14.799
<v Speaker 1>feel those other dimensions anymore because the other dimensions only

0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:17.680
<v Speaker 1>activate it really really short distances. This is the theory

0:37:17.719 --> 0:37:19.759
<v Speaker 1>people came up with, and we don't know if it's real.

0:37:19.840 --> 0:37:21.840
<v Speaker 1>You know, we tested it so far. It seems like

0:37:21.880 --> 0:37:26.200
<v Speaker 1>gravity works the same way for galactic scales and for

0:37:26.320 --> 0:37:29.160
<v Speaker 1>earth scales, and for microscopic scales. It seems to always

0:37:29.160 --> 0:37:31.960
<v Speaker 1>fall off at the same rate as a function of distance.

0:37:32.200 --> 0:37:34.600
<v Speaker 1>So nobody's ever seen any evidence of these extra dimensions.

0:37:34.600 --> 0:37:37.200
<v Speaker 1>But it's a fascinating theory and it's you know, it's

0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:39.400
<v Speaker 1>one that would give kind of a natural explanation for

0:37:39.520 --> 0:37:42.640
<v Speaker 1>why gravity would fall off so quickly and why gravity

0:37:42.680 --> 0:37:44.920
<v Speaker 1>is so weak. It wouldn't explain all these other things.

0:37:45.000 --> 0:37:47.360
<v Speaker 5>But in fact, people sort of try to use gravity

0:37:47.400 --> 0:37:49.560
<v Speaker 5>to see if there are other dimensions, right.

0:37:49.640 --> 0:37:51.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right. It would be a really cool clue,

0:37:51.680 --> 0:37:55.239
<v Speaker 1>right if And that's a fascinating way that science has done.

0:37:55.280 --> 0:37:57.600
<v Speaker 1>You know, you try to look at everything around you

0:37:57.640 --> 0:37:59.680
<v Speaker 1>and see if you can fit it all into one framework.

0:38:00.360 --> 0:38:02.840
<v Speaker 1>Can I use this one set of ideas to describe

0:38:02.880 --> 0:38:08.440
<v Speaker 1>everything right onto one part of concepts? Yep, that's right

0:38:08.760 --> 0:38:16.640
<v Speaker 1>in my fart theory of the universe. The best possible

0:38:16.680 --> 0:38:18.560
<v Speaker 1>way I think to unravel this is to actually go

0:38:18.680 --> 0:38:22.400
<v Speaker 1>visit a black hole. Because quantum mechanics and general relativity

0:38:22.400 --> 0:38:25.040
<v Speaker 1>tell you very different things about what's happening inside a

0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:28.759
<v Speaker 1>black hole. Right, as we said before, general relativity tells

0:38:28.760 --> 0:38:31.840
<v Speaker 1>you it's an infinite testimal dot of almost infinite density.

0:38:32.040 --> 0:38:35.160
<v Speaker 1>Quantum mechanics says, you know, the universe is quantized first

0:38:35.200 --> 0:38:38.440
<v Speaker 1>of all, so you can't have infinite testimal dots. And

0:38:38.520 --> 0:38:41.120
<v Speaker 1>also this sort of a minimum size to stuff, right,

0:38:41.440 --> 0:38:43.359
<v Speaker 1>and you can't have all that stuff compressed in such

0:38:43.400 --> 0:38:46.120
<v Speaker 1>a tiny little area. And so if you could see

0:38:46.160 --> 0:38:48.719
<v Speaker 1>inside a black hole, you would learn a lot about gravity.

0:38:48.960 --> 0:38:50.520
<v Speaker 5>So what would be the plan. You would go into

0:38:50.560 --> 0:38:53.400
<v Speaker 5>a black hole, you would observe and discover how the

0:38:53.480 --> 0:38:56.439
<v Speaker 5>universe works, and then and then you'd be stuck there.

0:38:56.760 --> 0:38:58.320
<v Speaker 1>That's right. They would have to send you a Nobel

0:38:58.320 --> 0:39:00.919
<v Speaker 1>prize into the black hole after just assume you'd figured

0:39:00.960 --> 0:39:04.959
<v Speaker 1>it out and cause the l prize into space into

0:39:04.960 --> 0:39:08.640
<v Speaker 1>the black hole. Anybod who's listening, please do not go

0:39:08.719 --> 0:39:10.920
<v Speaker 1>into a black hole. Please please do not go into

0:39:10.960 --> 0:39:12.600
<v Speaker 1>a black hole. But you know, we don't need to

0:39:12.719 --> 0:39:14.839
<v Speaker 1>visit black holes. We could try to create them here

0:39:14.880 --> 0:39:15.360
<v Speaker 1>on Earth.

0:39:15.480 --> 0:39:17.040
<v Speaker 5>That sounds like a great idea.

0:39:17.440 --> 0:39:19.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, doesn't that sound like a great idea. I mean,

0:39:19.560 --> 0:39:24.319
<v Speaker 1>I'm excited make it. Yeah, let's create a black hole

0:39:24.320 --> 0:39:28.320
<v Speaker 1>and study it. Right, if gravity gets really really powerful

0:39:28.360 --> 0:39:30.520
<v Speaker 1>when you get to really short distances because of this

0:39:30.560 --> 0:39:32.799
<v Speaker 1>extra dimension theory, then it might be that if you

0:39:32.800 --> 0:39:35.200
<v Speaker 1>shoot two protons together really really hard and they get

0:39:35.239 --> 0:39:37.160
<v Speaker 1>really really close to each other, that you can create

0:39:37.200 --> 0:39:40.799
<v Speaker 1>a super duper mini extra cute, little fuzzy black hole. Right,

0:39:40.960 --> 0:39:42.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to make it sound like a cozy thing, not.

0:39:42.960 --> 0:39:46.839
<v Speaker 5>A yeah, you're trying to sell it, right.

0:39:49.800 --> 0:39:53.040
<v Speaker 1>And so before we turned on the Large Hadron Collide

0:39:53.040 --> 0:39:55.719
<v Speaker 1>about ten years ago, people thought maybe by smashing these

0:39:55.719 --> 0:39:58.120
<v Speaker 1>protons together, we could actually create black holes and we

0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:01.839
<v Speaker 1>could study them. We can reveal the deep secrets of gravity. Right, hmmm.

0:40:03.640 --> 0:40:05.480
<v Speaker 5>So then the idea would be to try to make

0:40:05.480 --> 0:40:07.600
<v Speaker 5>them at the Large Hadron Collider and just can of

0:40:07.640 --> 0:40:09.839
<v Speaker 5>see what happens mm hm, like, does it tell us

0:40:09.840 --> 0:40:13.160
<v Speaker 5>something about gravity or quantum physics at the same time.

0:40:13.040 --> 0:40:16.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. By seeing how often they're made and how

0:40:16.320 --> 0:40:19.040
<v Speaker 1>strong they are and what they turned into when they decay,

0:40:19.440 --> 0:40:22.479
<v Speaker 1>we could understand something about the way black holes work,

0:40:22.840 --> 0:40:25.680
<v Speaker 1>and that would have been really powerful. But unfortunately or fortunately,

0:40:25.719 --> 0:40:28.719
<v Speaker 1>depending on how feel above black holes. We haven't made

0:40:28.760 --> 0:40:31.640
<v Speaker 1>any black holes at the Large Hadron Collider that we've discovered.

0:40:32.400 --> 0:40:34.560
<v Speaker 5>But maybe isn't it true that maybe you've made them

0:40:34.600 --> 0:40:35.400
<v Speaker 5>but they evaporate.

0:40:35.760 --> 0:40:38.040
<v Speaker 1>Yes, these black holes would be very short lived. But

0:40:38.080 --> 0:40:40.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, everything we make at the Large Hadron Collider

0:40:40.040 --> 0:40:41.839
<v Speaker 1>is really short lived. These things last for like ten

0:40:41.880 --> 0:40:43.840
<v Speaker 1>to the negative thirty seconds or ten to the negative

0:40:43.840 --> 0:40:46.600
<v Speaker 1>twenty three seconds. We're pretty good at seeing short lived

0:40:46.600 --> 0:40:49.360
<v Speaker 1>stuff because it usually blows up into other things, and

0:40:49.440 --> 0:40:51.920
<v Speaker 1>a black hole would have a really unusual signature in

0:40:51.960 --> 0:40:54.120
<v Speaker 1>our detectors. It would be pretty clear to see if

0:40:54.160 --> 0:40:54.920
<v Speaker 1>we had made them.

0:40:55.000 --> 0:40:58.440
<v Speaker 5>Okay, but short of going into the black hole or

0:40:58.640 --> 0:41:03.080
<v Speaker 5>detecting farts in dimensions, we may not know in the

0:41:03.120 --> 0:41:05.960
<v Speaker 5>near future what what makes gravity so different?

0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:07.799
<v Speaker 1>That's right, it's going to take some work. I mean

0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:10.719
<v Speaker 1>the other direction, is theoretical, is to build up a

0:41:10.800 --> 0:41:13.799
<v Speaker 1>theory of quantum gravity sort of from the bottom up.

0:41:13.760 --> 0:41:16.680
<v Speaker 5>Like start from the beauty of math and physics and

0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:20.440
<v Speaker 5>then try to build it up to our level exactly.

0:41:20.440 --> 0:41:22.640
<v Speaker 1>And that's that's a wonderful way to do, is to say, like,

0:41:22.880 --> 0:41:25.720
<v Speaker 1>maybe the universe works in this way, this most basic

0:41:25.800 --> 0:41:28.520
<v Speaker 1>fundamental nature, and build it up from there and see

0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:31.000
<v Speaker 1>if you can describe the universe that we see around us.

0:41:31.200 --> 0:41:36.120
<v Speaker 5>Wow, all right, well that's pretty shocking to think gravity

0:41:36.600 --> 0:41:38.920
<v Speaker 5>is such a place, such a big role in our lives,

0:41:38.960 --> 0:41:43.000
<v Speaker 5>and yet it's it's like the weakling in the universe, right,

0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:46.879
<v Speaker 5>It's like, imagine, imagine if if gravity was stronger, life

0:41:46.880 --> 0:41:49.280
<v Speaker 5>would be a lot more chaotic, right and crazy?

0:41:49.560 --> 0:41:51.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. We would be closer to the Sun and

0:41:51.800 --> 0:41:54.600
<v Speaker 1>everything would feel more intense. It's fascinating to me that

0:41:54.680 --> 0:41:57.879
<v Speaker 1>gravity has been a mystery to physics for hundreds of years.

0:41:57.920 --> 0:42:00.520
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it was the focus of Isaac Newton's you know,

0:42:00.640 --> 0:42:03.200
<v Speaker 1>like hundreds of years ago people working on gravity. And

0:42:03.239 --> 0:42:06.200
<v Speaker 1>still today, even though we've made so much progress in

0:42:06.280 --> 0:42:08.919
<v Speaker 1>terms of gravity, we still have so much, so many

0:42:08.960 --> 0:42:11.320
<v Speaker 1>basic questions about it that we don't know the answers

0:42:11.360 --> 0:42:13.879
<v Speaker 1>to not even the really beginning of how to answer them.

0:42:14.000 --> 0:42:16.760
<v Speaker 1>To me, that's fascinating. Gravity is such a rich source

0:42:16.800 --> 0:42:19.200
<v Speaker 1>of mystery for physics and for everybody.

0:42:19.560 --> 0:42:23.080
<v Speaker 5>Wow, all right, cool, I think it's maybe time to

0:42:23.080 --> 0:42:25.239
<v Speaker 5>push down this question. Thanks for joining us.

0:42:33.560 --> 0:42:35.879
<v Speaker 1>If you still have a question after listening to all

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<v Speaker 1>these explanations, please drop us a line. We'd love to

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