WEBVTT - Jack Devine Talks About the FBI and CIA 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:05.720 This is Master's in Business with Barry rid Holts on 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:11.400 Bloomberg Radio. This week. On the podcast, I have a 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.680 fascinating guest. His name is Jack Divine, and he is 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:19.479 the former Operations director of the Central Intelligence Agency. When 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:22.279 you hear people say the line, oh, this guy knows 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:26.000 where all the bodies are buried, this guy literally knows 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:28.000 where all the bodies are buried. If you are at 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:36.480 all interested in spycraft, relationships with Russians and other foreign agencies, 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:42.760 counter narcotics, intelligence, and just the role of intelligence agencies 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:47.199 on the global stage, this is the conversation for you. So, 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:56.000 with no further ado, my conversation with Jack Divine. I'm 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.320 Barry rid Holts. You're listening to Masters in Business on 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.760 Bloomberg Radio. This week on the show, we have an 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:06.959 extra special guest. His name is Jack Divine. He is 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:11.600 a thirty two year veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency, 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:15.240 where he served as both Acting Director and chief of 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:19.360 the Latin American Division, as well as running the CIA's 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:24.920 Counternarcotics Center. He has received numerous awards from the agency, 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:30.320 including the Meritorious Officer Award, the Distinguished Intelligence Medal, and 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.760 other recognitions. From the Central Intelligence Agency. He is also 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:37.840 a founding partner and president of the ark And Group, 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:42.600 which specializes in strategic intelligence, and he is the author 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:47.840 of Good Hunting, an American Spymaster's Story. Jack Divine, Welcome 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:51.240 to Bloomberg. Great to be here. Your your timing could 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:54.760 not be better. Uh, we'll get to some of the 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:57.520 current events that are taking place, but but let's start 0:01:57.560 --> 0:01:59.720 at the beginning. How did you find your way to 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:04.680 the CIA? After graduate school, I taught American history in 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:09.600 suburban Philadelphia, and for my birthday or anniversary, I don't recall, 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:15.040 my wife Pat gave me a copy of David Wise's 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:19.320 book The Invisible Government, which is at the time was 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.560 sort of a scandalous book about CIA and the military 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:26.799 complex and how it was controlling the world. And uh, 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.960 I found a fascinating and actually had a different different 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:35.000 reaction than the author probably intended. And that as I thought, 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.679 what an amazing place to be, setting aside the fact 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:41.639 that there isn't such a conspiracy. But I wrote a 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:43.320 letter with you know, when we used to have big 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:48.000 pens and pre computers and cell phones, etcetera. And the 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.240 letter went off to c I A and within a 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.919 few weeks, Um, I got a letter telling me to 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:57.239 go to the the twelfth and Chestnut and thus began the process. 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:00.400 So you actually reached out to them, they didn't you. 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:04.679 That's correct. The British system, you know, had a tradition 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:09.320 of professors tapping people on the shoulder, and the early, 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.680 very early days of the OSS and in the early 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:18.560 days of the CIA, that was not an uncommon way 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.160 to be brought into the C. I a very clubby. Um. 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.240 What are they looking for when they reach out and 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:28.040 tap somebody? What is it a certain moral flexibility or 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:35.160 is it witty? No? Uh, well again I didn't They 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:37.520 didn't reach out to me, so I lacked whatever it was. 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:41.000 I had to go through the process. And today let 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:45.800 me just do a reverse engineering. Today instead of writing 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:50.560 a letter, you have to go online. Is much more impersonal, 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.080 which I think we lose some really good people because 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:57.200 of that, But the numbers require it. Um. I think 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:00.640 historically what the CIA is looking for p who are 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.640 Almost everybody that joined CIA has sort of within a 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:10.560 range of i Q education. They work hard to get 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.840 the extremes out people that have, you know, fantasies of 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:21.200 being James Bond. So they the psychiatrists, you know, have tests, 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:24.520 the interview. There's all types of souped up s, a 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:29.440 T test, personality test, there's interviews. Physical that they need 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:33.920 you need to be physically fit, mentally uh sound that 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:37.440 they do polygraphs to make sure that your integrity level, 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:40.000 that you're not involved in any type of theft that 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.480 would you know, since there's no controls many times when 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:48.000 you're delivering money. So it's across that that broad spectrum. 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:51.400 But I would say fundamentally, at the core setting all 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:55.719 these um what I would consider fairly standard requirements, they're 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:58.120 looking for people that have a sense of mission, that 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:00.960 they feel they want to serve their government, and they 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.719 went to serve it in a in a particular way. 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.359 It's not a place we apply just to get a 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:08.919 job because you have a degree in political science or 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.920 speak Japanese. So I think that's one of the key indicators. 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.760 They didn't recruit you and you approach them. What sort 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.480 of training did they put you through? No, we all 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:21.560 went to the same training, and everybody, I mean they 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:25.440 stopped doing the tapping on the shoulder probably in their fifties, 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.680 so everybody in my class, the what they called the 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:32.920 career Training class, which is sort of the premier class 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:38.240 where they developed the future leaders of the agency UM 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:43.400 and the training is about nine months. Half of it 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:47.320 is in learning how to be a spy, you know, surveilling, 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:50.880 how to develop people, how to assess people, how to 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:55.840 right reports, um, how to take pictures at at night, 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:59.120 and so on. And the second part is what they 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.919 called paramilitary training, which is it's a bit like boot 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:06.640 camp where you learn how to use every weapon under 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:08.400 the sun, not because you're going to use them as 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:10.680 much as you're going to be dealing with people that 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:15.360 are jump training, demolitions training, so it has a heavy 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.560 military overtone to it. And at the end of that 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:24.839 nine months, then you're assigned to an area of the CIA, 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:30.840 and it's operational region. The analyst go through a much 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:35.640 shorter training because this is not necessary to be an 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:41.279 analyst's good scholar. Coming out of major universities. With orientation 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:46.480 and some basic um basic training about the analytical process, 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:50.160 they're they're good to go. The operational training is much 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:54.839 more intensive, including jungle training. Back in those days, did 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:57.400 friends and family have any idea what you were doing 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.680 or was this completely sequestered from personal life. Well, you're 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:05.200 instructed early on in the process, do not share this 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:10.640 with with outside people other than your spouse, if you're married, 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:15.280 and your parents. And so I did, and I told 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.120 my father and he was very thrilled to have a 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:22.720 son in the CIA. And I explained them, whatever you do, 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:26.040 do not discuss it. So not too long after I 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.080 did that, I went to a wedding, family wedding and 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:32.680 dancing with my aunt and she's grabbing me around the 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.200 hip snuff here. Now my aunt's getting a little off 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.560 the reservation, and I said, what are you doing? She said, well, 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:41.960 I'm looking for your gun. So Dad couldn't keep a seeing. 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:44.400 Now there is a rumor in the family, which I 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:50.280 never bothered to validate. The rumor was that an article 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:54.200 appeared in the Delaware Counting Times newspaper announcing my assignment. 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.240 Um So, when I was polygraphed, I could say in 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:02.000 a straight face, they said, did you tell anybody about 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.720 your employment with CIA? And I could say without batten 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.880 and I absolutely not. They didn't ask me did your 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:12.400 father tell anybody? And that would have been the probably 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:15.760 the end of my budding career. Amazing, you wrote a 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:18.560 memoir about your time at the CIA, Good Hunting an 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:23.240 American spymaster story. I assume you can't just publish that 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:26.040 without the agency putting you through some sort of a 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:29.560 vetting process. Did you get the manuscript back with these 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:33.360 long black markers through it or were they pretty reasonable? 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.400 When you join the agency, you have to sign an 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.800 agreement that Bassie says, anything that you're writing, anything you're right, 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:44.320 has to be presented to the CIA too. Is UH 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:49.440 a publication review board whereas reviewed by a analyst and 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:53.880 supervised by a lawyer, so that they're they're cognizant of 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:58.439 any legal implications. So when I went through the process, 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:02.720 I felt comfortable. Most people in CIA cannot write about 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.920 their experiences because they're not in the public domain. My 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.240 career is interesting, and that half of it was in 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:14.079 the James Bond excuse me, the George Smiley lick or 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:20.679 AE fandestine meetings, betrayal, espionage, and that's the part you 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.839 really can't talk about very much. Although I happened to 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:27.160 know Rick Ames and quite well worked with them, and 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.920 I can talk about Rick Games, the KGB mole inside 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:33.880 of c i A. So there are some espionage things, 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.680 but where I became publicly identified. It was in the 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:43.280 action part, the James Bond, part of running the Afghan 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.360 task for the drive the Russians out of the Afghanistan. 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.000 I was in Chile when i NDI was overthrown. It 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:52.160 was in the middle of the around Contra affairs. There's 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:55.800 a whole series of things that eventually became public. I 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:58.360 didn't realize at the time when I was doing that 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.080 they become public. I as a result of that, once 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.880 it's in the public domain in an official capacity that 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:06.840 there was a government has to have information out there. 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.800 It's not enough that it's just out in some newspaper. 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:11.560 It has to be officially out there. But all of 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:14.760 this materials out there so I can address and I 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.160 do address in the book. This is a book about 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.480 largely about the action part of of c I A. 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:24.920 They did do a vigorous and painful scrub now, and 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:28.280 I would tell you it wasn't about a sourcer method, 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.480 which is the key question. No, you can't mention any 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:35.400 sources or any methods. But we seem to be hung 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.080 up in the process about you can't say you were 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.400 in this country permanently. It would shock your audience if 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:43.800 I told you which countries. We can't say that because 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:46.400 since you were in the fifth grade, you probably assumed it. 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:50.520 We had people there, but it was about geography, and 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:53.200 it was a bit more obstinate. And I'm working on 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.200 a second book now and I'm not as obstinate. I'm 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.360 not gonna waste my time on the issue of can 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:00.880 I say was there permanently or I just say that 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:03.880 I bopped into town. And when you say that, I'm 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:09.680 assuming Russia, China. I ran places like not necessarily those places, 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.240 but places like that. No, not really, because that I 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:14.920 got it right out of the starting gate that I 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.160 wouldn't touch any of those. Now these are these are 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:23.640 places where where I don't give any any clues. But 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:26.640 let's say you'd be comfortable going there tomorrow and be 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.440 happy to go there for a weekend. Really that that's 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.400 that's very interesting. Let's jump right into some of the 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:37.040 more interesting places where you headed up some missions. You 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:41.440 were ahead of the CIA's Afghan Task Force in the 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:44.959 mid eighties. What was the goals of the task force 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.520 and and how much of these were accomplished? When I 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:51.040 looked back over my career, it's probably the point where 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:54.560 I felt I had the most direct role part in 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.680 a major historical event, world changing one, and that was 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:03.520 driving the Russians out of Afghanistan. When the Russians invaded 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:08.880 in the late seven seventy seventy nine. The administration was 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.280 a Carter administration at the time, and the world in 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:15.000 general reacted that very negatively and understandably so to the 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:19.720 Russians invading. And at that point we actually began to help, 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:24.960 but it was a modest effort, using antiquated weapons to 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:29.400 support the Mujadine. But each year more and more support 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:34.040 was given and the Russians increased their presence there stubtly 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.000 as well, and it became a battleground, the key battle 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:41.199 around in the Cold War, and the Russians departure in 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.560 nine I think was one of the three major factors 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:48.040 in the collapse of the Soviet Union, and I can 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:50.720 elaborate on it. You know, the Russians did leave, and 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:54.680 theyre one of the major parts of factors in that. 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:57.520 First I would say, had people on the ground who 0:12:57.520 --> 0:12:59.360 wanted to fight and that was the Mujadine. You had 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:05.520 support um the Pakistani government and the huge us UM 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:13.439 material support in terms of weapons machinery, transportation and eventually, 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:17.840 during the time I was um involved in the operation 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.079 the introduction to the Stinger missile, which I believe it's 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.160 one of the few times in history we can see 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:27.280 an individual specific weapon changed the course of history. I 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:30.240 have a very vivid recollection of I want to say 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:34.000 it was sixty minutes doing a story on the Afghan 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:39.199 War and showing the Stingers bringing down Russian helicopters. It 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:44.280 was a real significant game changer for that conflict. Absolutely, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:48.880 uh we. When I say we, I mean the Western 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:53.200 world and particularly that the CIA in the US really 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:57.800 ran into a brick wall in and that was we 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:01.160 were able, to a man a large amount of weapons, 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.520 but we couldn't get them across the border and in 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:08.679 Afghanistan because the Russians were using the Hind helicopter, very 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.920 sophisticated one, not unlike our black Hawks, and they just 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:17.120 pinned down all transportation. So this is night vision and 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:21.000 heavily on. Oh, it's speed, it's it's it's the back 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.360 in its day. You know, the black Hawk was the 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:28.400 you know, the the super super jet of of helicopter world, 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.560 and it was easy to suppress forces on the ground. 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:36.560 Great fire. It had great firepower both that's what I'm saying. 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.920 But at the time we were we the c IA 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:46.600 was looking for we were only putting in Soviet block weapons. 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:50.920 When you run an insurgency, one of the theories, and 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:52.960 it's a good one, is that on the ground you 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:55.920 want to have interchangeable weapons. By that, I mean, if 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.840 you're fighting the Russians, you want to be able to 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.360 give your troops a K forty seven so that they 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:07.360 can with the capture and exactly so whether you capture 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:09.520 weapons and you can use them and you're used to 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.760 using those weapons. So we had to find enough weaponry 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.080 to support a hundred and twenty thousand USDINE fighters. You 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:22.400 can do the math on how much ammunition and a 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:24.760 K forty seven are needed. But none of it could 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.520 move because it just couldn't move across the border. So 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:33.160 we're looking for anti air weapons. They could be fired 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:37.920 in the field and bring down these helicopters. And everything 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:41.200 we tried in the foreign setting didn't work, but it 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.880 so happens. In eight six, the US government was just 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.040 manufacturing the sting or missile, which is heat seeking that 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:52.280 means you know, you fire it far to the left 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:54.720 of a of a helicopter and the heat from the 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:59.240 helicopter steers that missile right into it. So the effectiveness 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.960 at the time General Dynamics thought, um the Stinger might 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:09.640 have success rate It exceeded seventy and one point that 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.760 I'd make Barry. That's a lot of people don't understand. 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:17.120 It's not just shooting down helicopters. What happened on September 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.480 is when the first shot was fired and the helicopter 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:24.800 came down. I shouldn't say first shot because the first 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.640 one bounced across the ground and the people on the 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:30.680 ground said, Jack Divine, sent us another piece, and I'll 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.920 leave the blank out of equipment. But the next three 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:38.000 took out three consecutive helicopters single shots. But what happened 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:44.280 that day is the helicopters thereafter flew above the trajectory 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:47.160 of the Stinger missile, so it meant that they were neutralized. 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:49.800 They just weren't able to suppress anything on the ground, 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:52.960 and that consequently we were able to just pour weapons 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:56.440 across the border. So it wasn't just I'm shooting down 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:01.760 the first few helicopters and several number of them. Quite 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:04.560 a few after that was the fact that the strategy 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:09.720 moved the helicopters above effective range. And what it also did, 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:14.679 which is terribly important, is back in Moscow, it was 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.480 like the last straw. You know, They've been slugging it out, 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:21.000 thought they could neutralize in it. What do we do now? 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.560 We have to up the ante. Are we going how 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:26.640 long we're going to stay there? And frankly, it became 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.320 a policy decision to start the withdrawal and that was 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:32.760 as early as EIGHTI six that day. Once had Stinger 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:36.679 missile was fired, the process of getting out began. And 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:40.840 I think the leaving of of Afghanistan was a great 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:45.440 blow to the to the morale of the Kremlin. And 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:49.879 I think it eventually along with the being so overpowered 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.600 by the economic strength of the United States and to 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:59.520 some degree President Reagan Star Wars initiative, which the Russians believed, 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.040 I was agnostic about. They believe that thought, well, we 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.000 really have to change our game plan, and they did 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.600 so they came down. So they made a movie about this, 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:14.240 Charlie Wilson's War. How accurate were the broad strokes? And 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:19.240 when you watch these fictionalizations of actual events, are they 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:23.399 remotely close to the idea or is it just you know, 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:27.080 a goofy uh, these are It's a really good question, 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:30.600 actually a serious of questions. Barry. So, I was here 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.080 in New York and I was having a late lunch 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:38.000 in Saint Regis Hotel, which has sentimental reasons for me 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.400 from my CIA training. Will leave that aside for now. 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.200 And and Seymour Hoffman was there, and I really leave 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:46.800 actors alone. I never approached them. And in fact, my 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.440 wife was furious once in London because I came down 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.760 the elevator with Anthony Hopkins and she said, well, what 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:55.280 did you talk about is I didn't say a thing. 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.119 Don't pretended I didn't know she was living. So I 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.399 don't make a habit of, you know, going over the celebrities. 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.480 But I couldn't resist, so I went over to Hoffman, 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.680 who was a real gentleman. I said, Mr Hoffman, my 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.639 wife loves you. Was an actor, uh, and thought he 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:16.440 did a great job in the movie Charlie Wilson's War. 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.520 But you know, Mr Hoffan, I'll tell you that that 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.800 justice and the way it came down. So I think 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:24.600 he looked out thought, oh, here's another one, and he's 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.600 new York crazy people, and he said, listen, thank you 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:31.359 for your service. But I'm sure he felt um that 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:35.919 I was. He was being put upon. But even before that, 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:40.040 Charlie Wilson and I had dinner in uh Sparks here 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:41.880 in New York. And your audience may not be aware 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:48.360 of Sparks is where where Paul Costillano was assassinated doorstep, 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.240 which appealed to Charlie. Charlie had a sense of romance 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.440 and uh he was with his wife at the time, 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:57.160 and I was with mine and we sat down and 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.720 he said, Jack, I know you didn't like the book. 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.920 You're really going to hate the movie. And here's the reason. 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:07.720 Let maybe Charlie was a great character or someone that 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:11.560 we all should be have to have known. He was 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.760 a patriot. I mean it's been He was much more 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:21.000 substantive than people have recorded. But it wasn't Charlie Wilson's war. 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:23.600 But in order to make a movie, you have to 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.639 have a central person, you know. So you have Tom 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:30.760 Hanks and you have Julia Roberts, and you know, you 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.560 have this drama. And the truth of the matter is 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:41.000 these programs no congressman with a somewhat wild it's portrayed 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:46.040 by the movie CIA operator and and a socialite from 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:49.480 Texas are going to change, change and run a war. 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.439 It's not how it's done. It's a it's a major 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:59.040 logistical um effort done by the way governments do things, 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.240 with Chaine at command, and it's all within house. I 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:05.879 think it would surprise people to know that, you know, 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.480 and Charlie's Wilson more and I was responsible from eight 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:16.320 five onward to the well into eight seven, and I 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:20.960 never sold their version of Julie roberts Uh. Charlie Wilson 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:24.119 had a stinger hanging over his office. One of my 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:29.320 colleagues gave him an expended too, But Charlie and Fairness 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:30.800 in his book said, you know, I had nothing to 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.200 do with the stinger, which he didn't, but most people 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:38.480 don't focus on on that. Charlie and I traveled a 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:42.439 couple of times to south to Pakistan and to the 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.560 border area of Afghanistan, and it was almost like a 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:50.520 diplomatic trip. But I would say over my tenure with Charlie, 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:55.159 we probably had five at most substantive discussions about there 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.160 had no no impact on how the world was being run. 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.119 He called me once and said, well, Jack, understand you 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:09.040 shifted the supplies from Egyptian made and Chinese to sixty 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:16.520 Chinese and Pakistani. What's up. He had the closest relationships 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:19.560 excuse me, Egyptians. He had a close relationship with the Egyptians. 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:23.440 And I said, listen, Charlie, it's very simple. The the 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:27.680 weapons are get there faster, cheaper than their better maybe 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:31.280 he said, okay, got it. So Charlie's influenced in the 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:33.800 details of the war and the running of the war 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:37.520 is just not very realistic. He was important because he 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:41.720 brought attention to it early in the in the early eighties, 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:45.399 and I think that's important. And he kept pressure on. 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:48.400 I once asked him, how did you get involved in it? 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:55.040 And Charlie's west Point at Annapolis Graduate and uh, he said, well, 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:57.840 I'll tell you. The Speaker of the House, Jim Wright, 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:00.800 came to me and said, Charlie, I want you to 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:03.960 stay on this. I want to stay on Afghanistan. That's 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:06.320 your job. So that's how he actually got involved. And 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:08.800 I noticed on one of these TV shows that you mentioned, 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:11.840 they have him in a hot tub with a couple 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:14.560 of beautiful women, which was when he was a bachelor, 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:20.040 sort of his uh style, and he's watching a video 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:23.920 of or a TV show with Dan rather talking about Afghanistan, 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:27.679 and in the movie he suddenly becomes enamored with the 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:33.200 battle the real bat. The real truth was that Congressman 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:35.640 Wright told him to get on it. Uh. The other 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:37.439 thing about but the hot tub is I got a 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:41.040 number of calls the next day, and it's quite interesting. 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:43.920 They wanted to know, not about the stinger, not about this. 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:45.800 They wanted to know, was I in the hot tub 0:23:45.880 --> 0:23:50.840 with Charlie. Now I was annoyed because you know, professional 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:53.359 isn't going to be caught in that sort of situation. 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:56.640 So I could tell when I answered the caller and said, look, 0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:59.320 I wasn't in the hot tub with him, they were disappointed. 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:02.080 It was well, Jack is kind of planned. He really 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:05.359 doesn't belong in Hollywood. But by the third call, I 0:24:05.440 --> 0:24:07.840 finally wise stopped and I said, I don't want to 0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:10.400 talk about it. So I wasn't going to mislead them, 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:13.439 but I I left the impression that maybe maybe I 0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:16.320 was a little more flamboyant than then the legend would 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:22.400 have it plausible deniability after the fact. Looks back at Afghanistan, 0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:27.520 that have said, well, the subsequent blowback from once the 0:24:27.600 --> 0:24:31.040 Russians left UH and the United States says okay, we 0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:33.399 have no more need to be here, is that it 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:38.520 created a power vacuum into which rises the Taliban. How 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:42.560 accurate is that depiction of of that part of the world. Well, 0:24:43.040 --> 0:24:45.600 Charlie Wilson I did have a discussion at the time, 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:48.080 and both of us were the view that we should 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:52.879 have kept pushing funds into the Afghan fray. The experts 0:24:53.400 --> 0:24:55.679 and people that have studied it for years and the 0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:58.520 policy makers or other view, look, we wanted to drive 0:24:58.640 --> 0:25:00.720 them out. We completed our and you have to know 0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:05.080 when to end. And with hindsight, when I looked back 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:07.240 on it, and I would say, you know, twenty years 0:25:07.320 --> 0:25:10.840 later or whatever, when I sat and I was able 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:13.280 to see the longer arc of history, I really believe 0:25:13.320 --> 0:25:15.679 I was wrong and Charlie was wrong. And that is 0:25:15.720 --> 0:25:18.000