Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,
Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of
Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.
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Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show.
Speaker 4: The Russia coverage was not great.
Speaker 5: Sure, the Russia coverage was not great from who or man.
Speaker 4: From corporate media. Yeah, I mean just the question about
Speaker 4: fat Donald Trump didn't have facts on his side.
Speaker 1: I think that the Russia coverage on CNN was good.
Speaker 5: I think that Bernie Sanders that that wing of the
Speaker 5: Democratic Party actually did it as much, if not more
Speaker 5: damage to Hillary Clinton than Donald Trump.
Speaker 4: The Nikki Haley comment was that an excuse to purge you.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Counterpoints.
Speaker 4: I'm Ryan Grim, I'm Emily Dashinsky. We know that you
Speaker 4: are used to seeing us every Wednesday.
Speaker 3: But it's Friday. Here we are.
Speaker 4: We're excited to premiere the Friday edition of Counterpoints, where
Speaker 4: we'll do long form interviews. We'll do debates with some
Speaker 4: big names, so make sure to subscribe over at Breakingpoints
Speaker 4: dot com for early access to every episode.
Speaker 6: All right, and for today's show, we're joined by a
Speaker 6: familiar face, former CNN anchor Don Lemon, who's now the
Speaker 6: host of The Don Lemon Show.
Speaker 3: Don Lemon, Welcome to Counterpoints.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I thought you guys said you had big
Speaker 1: names on this program.
Speaker 3: Now in the future we'll have big names.
Speaker 5: After me, your next big name. Thank you guys for
Speaker 5: having me on.
Speaker 4: I appreciate it, of course, No, thank you for being here.
Speaker 4: You're too humble done. But we want to ask you.
Speaker 4: Your show is streaming everywhere. Our first question for you is, basically,
Speaker 4: you spent a long time in what a lot of
Speaker 4: people would describe as the corporate media, what we would
Speaker 4: often describe as the corporate media, and now you're doing
Speaker 4: an independent show. So if you could tell us a
Speaker 4: little bit about what the difference is, you know, between
Speaker 4: doing the news at this big corporate behemoth and doing
Speaker 4: the news as an independent anchor where you really get
Speaker 4: to I'm sure you had a lot of creative corol
Speaker 4: and freedom at CNN, but now you really have no restrictions.
Speaker 4: Nobody telling you anything. It's all you.
Speaker 1: Well, it's two things I think that are most important.
Speaker 1: One you said freedom. There's freedom, editorial freedom.
Speaker 5: I probably had the most editorial freedom on my own
Speaker 5: network than anyone because at the time of I was
Speaker 5: ob this is the last show on the air, right
Speaker 5: and it was at night, so I had a lot
Speaker 5: of editorial freedom, and maybe the bosses weren't even watching
Speaker 5: at that time, so you know, but I have even
Speaker 5: more freedom here to say and do whatever I want.
Speaker 1: And it's mine. I get to do. I get to
Speaker 1: cover whatever I want.
Speaker 5: There was a time that I'd have to ask and
Speaker 5: get permission from everyone just to be on your show,
Speaker 5: and they would, you know, it would go through the
Speaker 5: SMP and they'd say this is not worthy, this is worthy.
Speaker 5: I get to decide what's worthy. I get to decide
Speaker 5: where I go, so I am my own person. But
Speaker 5: the most important thing I think is that this is
Speaker 5: a community and independent media. You build a community. It's
Speaker 5: from the it's grassroots.
Speaker 1: From the ground up.
Speaker 5: People are actually engaged with you. They feel that you
Speaker 5: are a part of their family so to speak. I mean,
Speaker 5: people do say I feel like you're a part of
Speaker 5: my family because I go to sleep with you every night,
Speaker 5: you know, and so on and so forth. But also
Speaker 5: it's not just me sitting on an anchor desk, you know, pontificating.
Speaker 5: It's me talking to the viewers, trying to figure out
Speaker 5: what is interesting, what they want. And also I have
Speaker 5: the complete freedom just to be honest with them and
Speaker 5: they appreciate that, and just to be myself.
Speaker 1: I do a show.
Speaker 5: I do this show which is in my studio now,
Speaker 5: and you know, it's a nice, beautiful studio in Manhattan
Speaker 5: on Park Avenue.
Speaker 1: It's great.
Speaker 5: But the show that gets the most engagement is a
Speaker 5: show that I do for my living room. I do
Speaker 5: a live show at five o'clock every day, Lemon Live
Speaker 5: in my living room every day, where I talk about
Speaker 5: what's happening in the news, and I take questions and
Speaker 5: comments from the viewers live from the comment section. And
Speaker 5: people are so engaged they call themselves a lemonheads or.
Speaker 1: Lemon nation, and that's what I.
Speaker 5: Really love about it. So that's the most important thing.
Speaker 5: I get to build a community. It's not just a
Speaker 5: one way conversation. And also I have complete toial freedom.
Speaker 6: When you talk to anchors at CNN or MSNBC. So
Speaker 6: I write for the Intercept when I'm not doing this program,
Speaker 6: and all of me talking to them about stories that
Speaker 6: we've done. Often here, God, we could never put that
Speaker 6: on air. We just couldn't do that. And I'm curious
Speaker 6: how often you kind of ran up against those constraints
Speaker 6: as an anchor, and whether it was about ratings or
Speaker 6: whether there were other kind of political or commercial interests
Speaker 6: that would would require you just kind of internally or
Speaker 6: within your staff to say, yeah, we just can't touch that.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I don't know if I ever had
Speaker 5: that problem, and I don't want to. I'm not going
Speaker 5: to disparage my own network because I loved working at CNN.
Speaker 5: I love the folks there. They're the best journalists in
Speaker 5: the world, I believe. But as I said, I had
Speaker 5: more editorial freedom than I think anyone on the network,
Speaker 5: And if I wanted something covered, then I could cover it.
Speaker 1: If even if I couldn't.
Speaker 5: Devote an entire program to it, I could devote a
Speaker 5: segment to it, or just you know, I could just
Speaker 5: come on the and say this is important to me,
Speaker 5: and you know, and I would just say it in
Speaker 5: a monologue and then be done.
Speaker 1: With it.
Speaker 5: But when you work for company A, you do things
Speaker 5: the way Company A does it. If you work for
Speaker 5: company B, you do things away company B does it.
Speaker 5: And I think that we develop regardless of what network
Speaker 5: we're in. We develop sort of, you know, we have
Speaker 5: this myopic lens, we have blinders that we do things
Speaker 5: the way that it is done. And I find that
Speaker 5: since I've left that my media appetite has no media
Speaker 5: diet has you know, changed, And so I feel like
Speaker 5: I feel like I'm much more aware of what's going
Speaker 5: on in the world because I'm not just focusing on
Speaker 5: what are the big things in the news that are
Speaker 5: going to make air on this particular network. And so
Speaker 5: there were things, Yes, there were things that I would
Speaker 5: like to cover, but they just didn't bubble up high
Speaker 5: enough right into the things that we were discussing on
Speaker 5: the network. And I'm not sure that's necessarily bad. That's
Speaker 5: just the way that it was done. If you look
Speaker 5: at Fox Box Has, you know, they have a different
Speaker 5: editorial plan or edic, then CNN, CNN has a different
Speaker 5: one than MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS.
Speaker 1: For the most part, they're the same.
Speaker 5: When you come out there covering the same stories, but
Speaker 5: they somehow do it differently because they do it the
Speaker 5: way that their company does it. So it wasn't really
Speaker 5: a problem for me. But I understand your question. There
Speaker 5: are certain things that just probably didn't bubble up.
Speaker 4: And when we were thinking about this interview, Ryan had
Speaker 4: an idea to play this clip of Nom Chomsky that
Speaker 4: is really popular on the left. But this is kind
Speaker 4: of a perfect segue into it because he talks about
Speaker 4: the Chomsky theory. You know, whether or not you agree
Speaker 4: with it. Don It's interesting is that basically a lot
Speaker 4: of the different cable networks speak in one voice ultimately,
Speaker 4: because there's almost a class bubble that a lot of journalists,
Speaker 4: especially at the cable networks, find themselves in. So let's
Speaker 4: just roll this one minute of Nome Chromsky and then
Speaker 4: we'll get your reaction done.
Speaker 1: I'll have to I think I know some of them.
Speaker 7: Well, I know some of the best and best known
Speaker 7: investigative reporters in the United States. I won't mention names,
Speaker 7: but whose attitude or the media is much more cynical
Speaker 7: than mine. In fact, they regard the media as a sham,
Speaker 7: and they know and they consciously.
Speaker 3: Talk about how they try to.
Speaker 7: Play it like a violin. If they see a little opening,
Speaker 7: they'll try to squeeze something in that ordinarily wouldn't make
Speaker 7: it through. And it's perfectly true that the I'm sure
Speaker 7: you're speaking for the majority of journalists who are trained,
Speaker 7: have it driven into their heads that this is a
Speaker 7: crusading profession, adversarial we stand up against power, a very
Speaker 7: self serving view. On the other hand, in my opinion,
Speaker 7: I hate to make a value judgment, but the better journalists,
Speaker 7: and in fact the ones who are often regarded as
Speaker 7: the best journalists, have quite a different picture, and I
Speaker 7: think a very realistic one.
Speaker 1: How can you How can you know that I'm self censory?
Speaker 7: How can you have self censory? I'm sure you believe
Speaker 7: everything you're saying, But what I'm saying is you could
Speaker 7: believe something different.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't be sitting where you're sitting.
Speaker 3: I had just seen that clip before. What'd you think
Speaker 3: I had?
Speaker 1: I hadn't seen that clip before. Well, listen to me, No,
Speaker 1: johsk would not want to go up against the right.
Speaker 1: I think he just basically sort of said what I
Speaker 1: said in different words.
Speaker 5: If you see something or you believe something that you know,
Speaker 5: you find an opening you sort of squeeze it in,
Speaker 5: which is basically what I was saying, and my previous
Speaker 5: answer to you that there was something I found.
Speaker 1: Important, I would find a way to get it in.
Speaker 5: And obviously, look, I'm no longer, you know, in traditional
Speaker 5: legacy media. So he says, if you believe something, if
Speaker 5: you believe differently, you wouldn't be sitting where you're sitting now.
Speaker 5: So I'm not sitting where I was sitting before. So
Speaker 5: obviously there was something that I else said I believe.
Speaker 4: And you know, I have a question on that, actually,
Speaker 4: because I don't think either of us is interested in
Speaker 4: getting into any drama with your old network. But I
Speaker 4: do think the Nikki Haley comment what I found it
Speaker 4: hilarious frankly, but we don't have to get into it.
Speaker 4: All I want to say is is that an excuse
Speaker 4: to purge you? Do you feel like that was Do
Speaker 4: you think that your former colleagues cared deeply about Nicki
Speaker 4: Haley's feelings or do you think that was sort of
Speaker 4: a fig leaf to start purging maybe allies of Jeff Zucker.
Speaker 4: What's your read on that whole situation, because you, I
Speaker 4: mean you did I think apologized for it, and everything
Speaker 4: sort of spiraled from there. It seemed like from the outside.
Speaker 1: At least, look at my faith.
Speaker 4: In your crime.
Speaker 5: I will let your comments stand if you think, I think.
Speaker 1: That you are a very smart woman, and I will
Speaker 1: just let it stand.
Speaker 3: Enterprime, no doubt, right of course.
Speaker 6: So one of the criticisms I had of CNN over
Speaker 6: over the years is around its coverage of the of
Speaker 6: the kind of left wing of the Democratic Party, and
Speaker 6: in particular missing the kind of twenty six the energy
Speaker 6: behind the twenty sixteen Bernie Sanders campaign, and then missing
Speaker 6: miss again the second time around. Like you know, twenty twenty,
Speaker 6: Bernie Centers almost seized the nomination and it seemed to
Speaker 6: catch the media flat foot at both times. I'm curious
Speaker 6: what your editorial meetings were like throughout twenty sixteen and
Speaker 6: twenty twenty or was there just so much Trump that
Speaker 6: there just wasn't kind of the oxygen for the Democratic primaries.
Speaker 1: Well, I want to make sure I understand what you're saying, Brian.
Speaker 5: What are you asking me that that you think that
Speaker 5: Bernie Sanders wasn't given his do in in traditional media?
Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying is.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, and let me yeah, and let me and
Speaker 6: let me tell you a little story about that real
Speaker 6: quick like. So in February of twenty twenty, you remember
Speaker 6: Rebecca Cutler, the old head of CNN talent, She reached
Speaker 6: out to or somehow we got connected when I'm back
Speaker 6: still at the Intercept, I was the Intercept at the time,
Speaker 6: and she said, look, we have really missed the boat
Speaker 6: on covering the left wing of the Democratic Party, like
Speaker 6: we need people who have covered that before and who
Speaker 6: understand this rising progressive energy. And so CNN brought me
Speaker 6: in and said, look, we need to get you on
Speaker 6: some of these programs because we need somebody, you know,
Speaker 6: who can speak to this obviously now rising energy within
Speaker 6: the Democratic Party. And then that that happened a couple times,
Speaker 6: and then Bernie lost the South Carolina primary and got
Speaker 6: wiped out on Super Tuesday, and they said, actually, nevermind,
Speaker 6: We're good. We don't need to worry about this kind
Speaker 6: of progressive wing. Maybe maybe in four years if it
Speaker 6: if it bubbles back up. But there was a there
Speaker 6: was a fear inside CNN reflected through Rebecca's outreach that
Speaker 6: they had missed something fundamental about the country that was
Speaker 6: represented by the rise of Bernie Sanders.
Speaker 5: I don't know what conversation you had with Rebecca, who
Speaker 5: I know, and so I won't get into that, but
Speaker 5: I think if there was any outreach for you to
Speaker 5: cover something that was happening in the news of the
Speaker 5: zeitgeist politically, I think that Rebecca should be commended for
Speaker 5: recognizing that. The second part is that I've never heard anyone,
Speaker 5: anybody say that CNN should be more left, So you know, hey,
Speaker 5: there's a first time for everything. I didn't necessarily think
Speaker 5: CNN was left. I thought that CNN was about facts.
Speaker 5: I think CNN is the best journalist in the world.
Speaker 5: But I also think you asked me what my editorial
Speaker 5: meetings were like. I mean, no one was trying to
Speaker 5: push Bernie Sanders, and at least in my editorial meetings,
Speaker 5: and I would venture to speak for the network. Now, well,
Speaker 5: I'll speak for myself. I don't think that anyone was
Speaker 5: trying to push Bernie Sanders out. I think that Bernie
Speaker 5: Sanders may have had this sort of outsized influence with
Speaker 5: a certain segment of the Democratic Party. But all polls
Speaker 5: in twenty sixteen pointed to Hillary Clinton. All polls in
Speaker 5: twenty twenty, and public sentiment pointed to Joe Biden. And
Speaker 5: so what was shocking, I think to myself, was the
Speaker 5: the reaction from Democrats to the nomination of Hillary Clinton
Speaker 5: instead of Bernie Sanders in sixteen, especially in twenty twenty.
Speaker 5: You know, I couldn't get to gauge it because I
Speaker 5: didn't get to go to the conventions. I think that
Speaker 5: was around, you know, because of COVID. But here's a
Speaker 5: shocking thing. We so networks have editorial calls or meetings
Speaker 5: with campaigns right to figure out how you're going to
Speaker 5: cover the campaigns. When I in my experience meeting having
Speaker 5: those editorial calls and meetings with the Trump folks, they
Speaker 5: knew every single thing that was happening in the meeting,
Speaker 5: every single thing that Don Lemon had ever said about
Speaker 5: Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: His folks knew about it.
Speaker 5: They knew where to place him, they knew who they
Speaker 5: wanted him to talk to, They knew who they want
Speaker 5: him to call into or do in person interviews. By contrast,
Speaker 5: the Clinton campaign was so above it that you know, hey,
Speaker 5: you know, they had no idea what I was saying
Speaker 5: about Hillary Clinton or whatever they were. You know, she
Speaker 5: didn't not have as much media outreach. She got to
Speaker 5: pick and choose where she went and rather than just
Speaker 5: doing what Donald Trump did. So listen, I think that
Speaker 5: the Hillary but yet and still the public wanted Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 1: They didn't want Bernie Sanders.
Speaker 5: So I say that to say, when after all of
Speaker 5: you know, Republicans did not love Donald Trump, they held
Speaker 5: their nose and they voted for him. All of the
Speaker 5: never Trumper was all of the people, you know, from
Speaker 5: Ted Cruz on down. When he became the nominee, everyone
Speaker 5: got behind him.
Speaker 1: When we were at the convention, it was Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump.
Speaker 1: It wasn't jeb it wasn't you know, Cruise, it wasn't Ruby,
Speaker 1: it wasn't any of those people. By the time we
Speaker 1: got to the Democratic Convention and Hillary.
Speaker 5: Clinton was a nominee, people were yelling Bernie, Bernie, and
Speaker 5: we were like, what the hell is going on? So
Speaker 5: I think that Bernie Sanders, that that wing of the
Speaker 5: Democratic Party actually did it as much, if not more
Speaker 5: damage to Hillary Clinton than Donald Trump.
Speaker 6: So look, but I think that's I think that's an
Speaker 6: interesting I think any question to be asking is to
Speaker 6: say what.
Speaker 1: I think Bernie is a fantastic politician.
Speaker 5: But I do think that there is a lesson in
Speaker 5: it for Democrats that you have to get behind the
Speaker 5: person who is the actual nominee and you cannot have
Speaker 5: sour grapes of the person who did not become the nominee.
Speaker 1: That's how the process worked.
Speaker 5: So I know that people are upset and they're upset
Speaker 5: about the progressive wing and they don't think it gets
Speaker 5: covered enough. But this is where we are. The nominee
Speaker 5: of the person is Joe Biden. The nominee of the
Speaker 5: person then was Hillary Clinton. I think the Bernie Sanders
Speaker 5: progressive wing of the party should have gotten behind should
Speaker 5: have gotten behind them, And that's the reason, one of
Speaker 5: the reasons, the main reasons that we're in the predicament
Speaker 5: that we are now and that.
Speaker 1: We had a Trump presidency.
Speaker 6: But I guess the point would be if CNN anchors
Speaker 6: are at the twenty sixteen convention saying, what the hell
Speaker 6: is going on? That's kind of reflective of the time
Speaker 6: that I was making that you guys should have seen
Speaker 6: this coming and should have own what was going on,
Speaker 6: where this we knew it was, where this anger coming from.
Speaker 5: Just because we're realistic about who the nominee is doesn't
Speaker 5: mean that we didn't see that, didn't see it coming.
Speaker 5: Bernie Sanders was not going to win. Bernie Sanders was
Speaker 5: not going to be the nominee. So I turned to
Speaker 5: my producer and said that I'm not saying this on
Speaker 5: the air, but I was.
Speaker 1: Maybe I did say it on the air.
Speaker 5: I was surprised because Republicans fall in line. Democrats fight
Speaker 5: each other, Democrats usually wet the bed. I'm sorry for
Speaker 5: Bernie Sanders was not the nominee, nor was he ever
Speaker 5: going to become the nominee. And I know that people
Speaker 5: are upset by it, but that's the truth. It's the
Speaker 5: same thing for Republicans. Nikki Haley is not the nominee.
Speaker 5: She's not going to become the nominee. Donald Trump is
Speaker 5: a nominee, regardless if you like it or not. The
Speaker 5: guys in court and guess what, Republicans are going to
Speaker 5: fall in line, and if Donald becomes the president again,
Speaker 5: it'll be because Republicans fell in line.
Speaker 4: One of the things I think I was just one
Speaker 4: of the things I think it's cool about. Like Ryan
Speaker 4: and I have both been critical of you. You've probably
Speaker 4: been critical of independent media. This is the first time
Speaker 4: we've ever talked in the past. But one thing that
Speaker 4: I considered a low point, honestly in media coverage of
Speaker 4: Donald Trump was the segment with you and Rick Wilson
Speaker 4: talking about credulist Boomer Rubes. And I wonder, honestly if
Speaker 4: there's an argument that sort of seeing other Americans through
Speaker 4: that lens, and maybe now in independent media it's easier
Speaker 4: not to but seeing other people through that lens of
Speaker 4: you know, credulous Boomer Rubes laughing.
Speaker 5: At Rick Wilson about that wasn't my That was not
Speaker 5: my assessment of that. I was laughing at the Ukraine
Speaker 5: on a map thing.
Speaker 1: That was my point.
Speaker 5: I did not make any comments about Americans. So you'll
Speaker 5: have to talk to Rick Wilson about that.
Speaker 6: And I get but I guess there's an interesting mirror
Speaker 6: going on where, you know, the Trump the Trump supporters
Speaker 6: see that clip and they felsted in that, yeah, and
Speaker 6: they feel.
Speaker 3: Like they're not being represented. Bernie.
Speaker 6: People feel like, you know, they're not being represented on CNN.
Speaker 6: And and to the point about the polling that you mentioned,
Speaker 6: just one point on Joe Biden's pulling. Joe Biden was
Speaker 6: not polling ahead. You had said that Joe Biden was
Speaker 6: pulling ahead. Joe Biden was in the toilet the entire time.
Speaker 6: He finished fourth in Iowa, fifth in New Hampshire, got
Speaker 6: annihilated in the data.
Speaker 1: He got to the convention.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and then he won after one hundred and seventy
Speaker 6: five million dollars in free media between Nevada and South Carolina.
Speaker 6: And then he wins Super twos and he won the nomination,
Speaker 6: no doubt about it. But he wasn't pulling ahead before.
Speaker 4: That is the sort of establishment media doing a good
Speaker 4: enough job of connecting with the country in the way
Speaker 4: that after twenty sixteen, newsrooms reckoned both with the sort
Speaker 4: of Bernie Sanders phenomenon he won my homestate of Wisconsin,
Speaker 4: for example, and the Trump phenomenon, and they said, for example,
Speaker 4: Dean Baquet at the New York Times said, we don't
Speaker 4: get religion. Has that gotten any better? Has it gotten worse?
Speaker 4: Is the media in a sort of insulated You said,
Speaker 4: your studios on Park Avenue the sort of a good
Speaker 4: symbol right there, Like do people in the media know
Speaker 4: people love people respect people.
Speaker 5: Students on Park Avenue doesn't have to do with anything
Speaker 5: I mean your studios in Washington, d C. Park Avenue
Speaker 5: is part of America.
Speaker 4: Well, no, I mean I don't disagree with that. Stephanie
Speaker 4: Rule said the same thing, actually, but I am asking
Speaker 4: you basically, we make an effort to talk to people
Speaker 4: in different parts of the country. That's why I'm asking
Speaker 4: does the media do a good, good enough job on
Speaker 4: a class basis, not even a I think it.
Speaker 5: Does a great job of talking to people from you know,
Speaker 5: from all parts of the country. I mean when I
Speaker 5: turn on Look, I'm not in legacy media anymore. When
Speaker 5: I turn on legacy media, I see the left wing
Speaker 5: of the Democratic Party overrepresented. I see the right wing
Speaker 5: of the Republican Party overrepresented. There's always there's always panels
Speaker 5: about what do maga people think nobody understands those people
Speaker 5: and that they're overrepresented in media. The same thing happened
Speaker 5: with the Bernie Sanders thing. The Sanders the left wing
Speaker 5: of the party, it's overrepresented. Bernie Sanders getting is not
Speaker 5: getting a fair shake. I think that it's over representation.
Speaker 5: I just think, like listen, time to move on. Bernie
Speaker 5: Sanders was not the nominee in twenty sixteen. We can
Speaker 5: go back and litigate it. Now we've got a lot
Speaker 5: of you know, unearned media or earned media.
Speaker 1: In twenty sixteen, it's over. We can't go back and
Speaker 1: litigate that. The same thing with twenty twenty. That's over.
Speaker 5: We can't go back and litigated. What we can do
Speaker 5: is try to be better moving forward. So I do feel, honestly,
Speaker 5: now that I'm in independent media, I do think that
Speaker 5: the fringes of the parties, both parties are over represented
Speaker 5: in the coverage in independent media and in legacy media
Speaker 5: as well.
Speaker 6: Why do you think legacy media is fading and independent
Speaker 6: media is rising your what's your theory of that case?
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think it's because they're so terrible the
Speaker 1: way that they are covering the news.
Speaker 5: I think they do a really good job of covering
Speaker 5: the news because they have.
Speaker 1: A ton of resources. I just think it is the way.
Speaker 5: I think it's the advertising around it, because media is
Speaker 5: so fractured now there are other places for advertisers to
Speaker 5: put their money and so and there are just other
Speaker 5: it's just other forms of media. Now you have way
Speaker 5: more channels. He used to just be like, you know,
Speaker 5: you had three ABC, CBS and NBC and then cable
Speaker 5: came along, and then all of a sudden, the Internet
Speaker 5: came along, and then social media came along.
Speaker 1: I just think it's fractured.
Speaker 5: So I'm not saying I don't believe that it's some
Speaker 5: indication that traditional media is bad and therefore people aren't
Speaker 5: tuning in. I just think there are more places to
Speaker 5: tune in now and so the audience is shrinking.
Speaker 4: Also curious if you've talked to Elon Musk since he
Speaker 4: canceled the partnership, have you heard anything from him at all?
Speaker 1: You know, I have a text message from him right now. No.
Speaker 4: Well, on that note, actually, Elon Ryan has sent some
Speaker 4: reporting on this Elon's censorship in different parts of the
Speaker 4: world with X What do you think is the right
Speaker 4: balance when it comes to content moderations obviously one of
Speaker 4: the biggest challenges facing lawmakers, facing businesses, executives in Silicon Valley.
Speaker 4: You now have a show that is on some of
Speaker 4: these streaming platforms. How do you think about, you know,
Speaker 4: what that sort of balance between and just allowing people
Speaker 4: to speak and get everything out there. Elon's doing that
Speaker 4: sort of in the States now, not necessarily in other
Speaker 4: parts of the world. But what do you make of
Speaker 4: that done.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what your question is. If you can
Speaker 1: just tell me what I guess.
Speaker 6: Put it this way, like one of the disputes that
Speaker 6: you had with Musk was the definition of censorship versus moderation.
Speaker 6: You would say there ought to be there ought to
Speaker 6: be moderation. He was saying anything beyond taking down, you know,
Speaker 6: illegal posts is censorship.
Speaker 3: So where where would you draw the line.
Speaker 6: Let's say all of a sudden, Saudi Arabia comes to
Speaker 6: you and says, here's forty five billion dollars, we actually
Speaker 6: want you to own Twitter rather than elon Musk. How
Speaker 6: would you go about I think platforms figuring out the difference.
Speaker 5: I think platforms that have moderation obviously do better than
Speaker 5: platforms that don't. If you look at what's happening with
Speaker 5: Twitter now, then you one would understand that if you
Speaker 5: look at a platforms that moderate, even the independent media
Speaker 5: who's on YouTube has moderation, right, even TikTok that I
Speaker 5: know people are upset because it's China, China owns it,
Speaker 5: but there's moderation there. There's moderation on Facebook, there's moderation
Speaker 5: on Instagram. And I think that I would draw the
Speaker 5: line at hate speech. I would draw the line at
Speaker 5: anything that is that puts people in danger.
Speaker 1: And I would draw the line at where.
Speaker 5: When people who go into synagogues or churches or supermarkets
Speaker 5: say that they admittedly became radicalized in part because of
Speaker 5: social media. I think you need to look at that
Speaker 5: and you need to take it seriously. So I would
Speaker 5: draw the line at that. And if you're going to
Speaker 5: if you want to say it's okay, look at this
Speaker 5: is it's Elon Musk's that part.
Speaker 1: This is bat and ball. He can do it whatever
Speaker 1: he wants to do with it.
Speaker 5: But I do think that there you have some degree
Speaker 5: of responsibility to keep people safe, and you have it
Speaker 5: should be responsible enough that you listen to those who
Speaker 5: disagree with you, and that you have different voices on
Speaker 5: your platform. Every organization has rules that must be followed,
Speaker 5: and if you're going to be on that platform, then
Speaker 5: you need to follow the rules.
Speaker 1: He even has content rules on his.
Speaker 5: Platform, and the content rules on his platform should be followed.
Speaker 1: And if they're not, then why are they there?
Speaker 5: So I think you would draw the line really at
Speaker 5: hate speech, in anything that puts people people's lives in danger.
Speaker 1: And a lot of what's on social media.
Speaker 4: Does that the constitution protects a decent amount of hate speech,
Speaker 4: if not most hate speech. So is it Do you
Speaker 4: think it's for a business reason, because I actually think
Speaker 4: that's an interesting argument that for a business reason these
Speaker 4: platforms should be engaged in content moderation because their consumers
Speaker 4: feel unsafe, feel miserable when they're on these platforms that
Speaker 4: are with hate speech. Or is it just sort of ideologically,
Speaker 4: maybe it's a combination. We should keep people from hate speech,
Speaker 4: people should be protected from hate speech.
Speaker 1: Whether I think that.
Speaker 5: I don't think content should be you know, pushed to
Speaker 5: young girls that make them feel less than I don't
Speaker 5: think that content should be pushed to young men that
Speaker 5: makes them feel that they, you know, can go and
Speaker 5: shoot up supermarkets and kill people, kill Jews, kill blacks,
Speaker 5: kill gay people. So I think for human reasons that
Speaker 5: there needs to be moderation. I think for common sense
Speaker 5: there needs to be moderation. That whole idea that you know,
Speaker 5: free speeches is a you know, wild wild west.
Speaker 1: I think that's BS.
Speaker 5: I don't think that's what the our founders meant when
Speaker 5: they said freedom of speech. You're free You're free to
Speaker 5: say whatever you want, but you must suffer the consequences.
Speaker 4: We had Stemm Rehersch on this show last year talking
Speaker 4: about his reporting that implicated the CIA and blowing up
Speaker 4: nord Stream pipeline. Is that is that beyond the bounds
Speaker 4: of disinformation from your perspective, because there are some people
Speaker 4: that would say this is, you know, Russian propaganda, this
Speaker 4: is disinformation? Is that something? How do you sort of
Speaker 4: beyond how?
Speaker 5: I think it has to be true if it's going
Speaker 5: to be on your platform, And again, if you people
Speaker 5: can create the rules of whatever they want to on
Speaker 5: their platform, your organization, whatever organization you.
Speaker 1: Belong to, you have rules. I have my own rules.
Speaker 5: CNN has rules, MSNBC has rules, Fox has rules.
Speaker 1: X Corporation has rules.
Speaker 5: Everyone has rules that their employees are people who are
Speaker 5: going to take part in whatever platform that they have
Speaker 5: or if you're going to work there, they have rules,
Speaker 5: and I think you need to follow those rules. And
Speaker 5: I think that that company gets to set what those
Speaker 5: rules are. But I think at the very least, especially
Speaker 5: when it comes to journalism and it comes to the
Speaker 5: freedom of the press.
Speaker 1: That before you put it out there, you need to figure.
Speaker 5: Out whether it's true or not. You just can't throw
Speaker 5: it out there and expect it to be okay. I
Speaker 5: don't believe that, and I think most sane people would
Speaker 5: agree with that.
Speaker 6: Let me ask you a totally unrelated question. You know,
Speaker 6: just my strength lies in kind of writing and reporting,
Speaker 6: kind of behind a desk, typing away the instant wretch.
Speaker 6: The whole TV presenting thing is not like, it's not
Speaker 6: the thing I'm really good at. You're quite good at
Speaker 6: the whole TV thing. Like even people who would disagree
Speaker 6: with whatever you're saying, like as a presenter, you're quite
Speaker 6: skilled at it. So what what tips do you have
Speaker 6: for people like me and Emily who this isn't really
Speaker 6: our thing, but we find ourselves in front of this
Speaker 6: camera anyway.
Speaker 5: Look, my tip is that you should just be yourself,
Speaker 5: and you know, if I can just be honest. You
Speaker 5: guys are saying, you know, where's the teleprompter before? Like
Speaker 5: I would say, challenge yourself. You don't need a teleprompter.
Speaker 5: I just think that you should be Ryan and Emily and.
Speaker 3: I also we did we did skip the teleprompter.
Speaker 4: Actually we did it live.
Speaker 1: Ryan and Emily.
Speaker 5: But I also think listen I'm just going to tell
Speaker 5: you there were there were many things, and there are
Speaker 5: many things in the media that I disagree with, But
Speaker 5: I'm also tethered to reality, and so i may want
Speaker 5: the outcome to be something different.
Speaker 1: I e.
Speaker 5: Bernie Sanders, but it is. As my mom says to
Speaker 5: me all the time, it is what it is. And
Speaker 5: so when it is what it is, you know, you
Speaker 5: make your case, you argue it or whatever.
Speaker 1: And then you move on.
Speaker 5: And so I think that many times, especially in independent media,
Speaker 5: I find people getting stuck in arguments and old arguments
Speaker 5: and things that are no longer in the zeitgeist and
Speaker 5: are no longer important anymore, and I think it's important
Speaker 5: for so my advice to you would be to.
Speaker 1: Get with the program. To go out and talk.
Speaker 5: To those people who are on college campuses, to see
Speaker 5: what you know, why they're on, you know, either for
Speaker 5: or against protests, no matter how you feel about it.
Speaker 1: To talk to the politicians.
Speaker 5: I would encourage you to talk to more people who
Speaker 5: are in traditional media, and if you can change their
Speaker 5: minds about certain things, I would say do it.
Speaker 1: I would say go on those shows.
Speaker 5: But I would say the most important thing is to
Speaker 5: have an open mind about everything about guests who come
Speaker 5: on your program, about what you're talking about, what you're
Speaker 5: trying to convey to the audience. It's just to have
Speaker 5: an open mind and to be curious, be less judgmental
Speaker 5: and more curious.
Speaker 3: I think that's well.
Speaker 6: I was hoping for tips more about how to deal
Speaker 6: with all these cameras in the studio setting. And you
Speaker 6: should see the time transitions, you know, of this stuff.
Speaker 5: I tell you this, Okay, Ryan, I'm wearing a light
Speaker 5: blue shirt. Right, Dark shirts don't really work that well.
Speaker 3: That's the kind of stuff I need.
Speaker 5: You need a nice white crisp shirt always looks good
Speaker 5: with a with a you know, with a nice tie.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 5: Blue suits black suits on television are a little drab
Speaker 5: and stay a little now we're talking, so you need,
Speaker 5: like do a blue suit, or like me, you know,
Speaker 5: do something that's on the blue or that gives a
Speaker 5: little pop of color.
Speaker 1: Don't be afraid. Don't think it's good. People think that
Speaker 1: you're you know, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 5: Wear something that's a little bit out that maybe your
Speaker 5: manhood is being questioned because you.
Speaker 3: Wear something uncomfortable with the man.
Speaker 5: So I'll go with that and also a nice haircut.
Speaker 5: Haircuts everything in your guy, make sure you keep it
Speaker 5: neat and clean.
Speaker 4: He gets accused of having it is real.
Speaker 5: And I am never going to criticize what a woman
Speaker 5: wears because you guys get enough of that. So I
Speaker 5: like to I like to do that to the guys
Speaker 5: because they don't know how you ladies live.
Speaker 1: You got to go to hair and make up. You can't.
Speaker 5: We could wear I could wear Ryan, you can wear
Speaker 5: that suit every.
Speaker 1: Day and no one would ever question.
Speaker 5: In fact, every day she would get shipped from everybody
Speaker 5: wearing she doesn't dress up, She doesn't what's going what
Speaker 5: is she doing with her hair?
Speaker 1: Guys don't get that.
Speaker 3: You can just be you know, well, I'm the exception.
Speaker 4: But yeah, you're totally right. I know we're running to
Speaker 4: the end here, But don I have one question about something?
Speaker 4: Actually does Tucker Carlson said recently that I don't know
Speaker 4: if you guys overlapped at CNN, but he said recently
Speaker 4: that social media really changed the way people on cable
Speaker 4: news had conversations. That before social media, you sort of
Speaker 4: were able to speak more freely because you weren't constantly
Speaker 4: thinking about how things were going to get clipped on
Speaker 4: Twitter now X or at the time, Facebook, and it
Speaker 4: just kind of I mean, I know that you're putting
Speaker 4: your show actually on x on all of the streaming
Speaker 4: platforms now, So I think people have journalists have adapted.
Speaker 4: But I'm curious what you think of that. Do you
Speaker 4: feel like there was an era in media where people
Speaker 4: actually could have more open conversations without the fear of
Speaker 4: sort of getting written up, whether it's you know, conservative media,
Speaker 4: liberal media, the blogs, and it was just more it
Speaker 4: was easier to talk to people.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's just media. I think it's everywhere.
Speaker 5: I think, you know, even you know, in Washington. I
Speaker 5: think our leaders are afraid of being criticized.
Speaker 1: It used to be.
Speaker 5: Now people don't care anymore because it doesn't have the
Speaker 5: outsized influence that it once had. With Twitter, people would
Speaker 5: concerned about, oh my gosh, people on Twitter are gonna
Speaker 5: kill me. I'm gonna be trending or whatever people used
Speaker 5: to worry about. I don't think they worry about that anymore.
Speaker 5: But I think that happens everywhere. I think that happens
Speaker 5: in Hollywood. I think that happens on television for sitcoms,
Speaker 5: I think that happens for comedians, you know.
Speaker 1: If you if you want proof of that, I think,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 5: Go back and look at the episode of SNL with
Speaker 5: Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor talking about me in word
Speaker 5: right where they actually use the word.
Speaker 1: You can't do that on television anymore. I wasn't.
Speaker 5: But I do think people were, you know, journalists are
Speaker 5: afraid of you know, being you know, getting criticized on Twitter.
Speaker 5: I think maybe they are probably executives who were afraid
Speaker 5: of criticism on social media because they're afraid of advertisers.
Speaker 1: I think that does happen. So yeah, I think it.
Speaker 5: Happens across all media and through throughout all industries that
Speaker 5: people are concerned about, you know, their presence on social media.
Speaker 5: I don't think that that's any secret, nor is it,
Speaker 5: you know, I don't think it's any big revelation.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm curious when when you're out in the world
Speaker 6: and engaging with the public, what are the kinds of
Speaker 6: questions that you often get, Like when people recognize you,
Speaker 6: they come to you, they must say something selfish?
Speaker 1: Can I get a selfie? You see?
Speaker 5: Look, let me tell you I was in cable news
Speaker 5: so guess what people say to me when they first
Speaker 5: see me.
Speaker 3: I see you in the airport all the time.
Speaker 1: Oh no, not at all. My mom loves you, loves you.
Speaker 1: Can I get a picture and send it to.
Speaker 5: You, So that you got the idea of the age
Speaker 5: range of the people who are watching. Now that I'm
Speaker 5: in independent media, people say, you know, people talk to
Speaker 5: me about what I'm doing now because young people are
Speaker 5: actually tuned into social media, They're tuned into YouTube there,
Speaker 5: some of them are on X now, not as many
Speaker 5: as before, but I think that people actually get recognized
Speaker 5: more now recently, in recent years than when I was
Speaker 5: on CNN before, you know, after the pandemic, after Donald Trump,
Speaker 5: after George Floyd. There was a time when I could
Speaker 5: not walk down the street without people, and then that
Speaker 5: sort of faded because you.
Speaker 1: Know, that just sort of goes away.
Speaker 5: You're not in people's living when people were at home
Speaker 5: during the pandemic, so that all they were doing was
Speaker 5: watching CNN and I was on all the time. And
Speaker 5: so now just getting back to normal times, I think
Speaker 5: people recognize me now more from social and social media
Speaker 5: and digital streaming media than they do from when I
Speaker 5: was in traditional and cable.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's super interesting, especially the younger audience part of that.
Speaker 5: And actually one question I had for you was about that,
Speaker 5: about they just I don't know, they just asked me,
Speaker 5: what are you doing now?
Speaker 1: I miss you and see it? Where can I see you? Yeah?
Speaker 6: You lived through a really seismic change when it comes
Speaker 6: to not just CNN but kind of the media in general.
Speaker 6: And it was fascinating watching it from my perspective because
Speaker 6: I was always part of this kind of left wing
Speaker 6: of observers who was saying mainstream media needs to drop
Speaker 6: this like fake objectivity, this this view from nowhere, this
Speaker 6: view from God, and I acknowledge that they have biases
Speaker 6: and speak from that perspective and earn trust that way.
Speaker 6: That was a very commonly held view, you know, for
Speaker 6: many years on the left, and then CNN and ms
Speaker 6: put aside, MSNBC. CNN really did that during the Trump administration,
Speaker 6: and I remember agreeing with a lot of what CNN
Speaker 6: was saying, disagreeing with the decent amount of it, particularly
Speaker 6: all the endless focus on Russia. But I also remember thinking, WHOA,
Speaker 6: that's a little bit much. You guys are starting to
Speaker 6: sound like kind of a democratic mouthpiece, and I also
Speaker 6: recognize like they're doing kind of what I asked them
Speaker 6: to do for years, but now that they're doing it,
Speaker 6: not so sure I like it. And I'm curious what
Speaker 6: it was like for you to be involved in that,
Speaker 6: Ryan Well, I am. I am.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Listen, I don't like that. I don't believe
Speaker 1: in that whole.
Speaker 5: I don't believe in the premise of Listen, I'm not
Speaker 5: trying to be confrontational. I don't agree with the premise
Speaker 5: of what you're saying when people put it in that context,
Speaker 5: because listen.
Speaker 1: We all we all, we all view life.
Speaker 5: Through a certain lens, whether we're a journalists or not,
Speaker 5: whether you're a woman, a man, black, white, Jewish, Palacini, whatever,
Speaker 5: we all viewed the world through our own lenses.
Speaker 1: And it is okay to.
Speaker 5: Come to be a journalist and to have a point
Speaker 5: of view.
Speaker 1: That's okay. It is actually okay to be a journalist
Speaker 1: and have an opinion. There's opinion journalism.
Speaker 5: So I don't believe in that that bs about. You know,
Speaker 5: journalists just have to sit there and go what do
Speaker 5: you think?
Speaker 1: What do you think?
Speaker 5: Okay, Fine, that's not how that's not how it works.
Speaker 5: I think that, you know, I said you were engaged.
Speaker 5: I think that when that was the zenith I believe
Speaker 5: of CNN when during that time, and it may have looked,
Speaker 5: I think that that we had moved to the left
Speaker 5: or that you know, we were somehow becoming an arm
Speaker 5: of the Democratic Party. That was only because of the
Speaker 5: Republican side and mostly Donald Trump and the MAGA wing
Speaker 5: of the Republican Party.
Speaker 1: The facts were not on their side.
Speaker 5: So by the simple fact of pointing out that someone
Speaker 5: is lying, that you're getting misinformation, it may think it
Speaker 5: may make people think that, oh my god, you must
Speaker 5: be on the Democrat side.
Speaker 1: No, you're on the side of truth.
Speaker 4: No, we have to wrap. But that the Russia coverage
Speaker 4: was not great.
Speaker 5: The Russia coverage was not great from who, from anyone?
Speaker 1: The Russia coverage wasn't great from anybody.
Speaker 4: A man from corporate media. Yeah, I mean just the
Speaker 4: question about fact Donald Trump didn't have facts on his side.
Speaker 1: I think that the Russia coverage on CNN was good.
Speaker 1: I think the Russia coverage in the media was good.
Speaker 5: I don't think that it was bad. You may disagree
Speaker 5: with it, that's you're a bias. But I actually think
Speaker 5: the coverage was good, and I think that people are
Speaker 5: smart enough to discern what's true and what's not, what's
Speaker 5: real and what's not, and so I don't think that
Speaker 5: the coverage was that bad. I don't fall into that category.
Speaker 5: And I think people were Look, I think people sort
Speaker 5: of romanticize the time that we were in, like people romanticize,
Speaker 5: you know, COVID and the protocols that were in place,
Speaker 5: and this was.
Speaker 1: Bad and that was bad.
Speaker 5: They don't remember the time that we're in that we
Speaker 5: were in, and so, you know, I think that the
Speaker 5: media did the best job that they could at the time.
Speaker 1: I don't think that it was terrible.
Speaker 5: We can always look back, you know, from being an
Speaker 5: armchair quarterback Monday morning quarterback and saying, oh, you should
Speaker 5: have done this.
Speaker 1: Should it would have? Could have? We didn't.
Speaker 5: And again my advice, accept things the way that they are,
Speaker 5: learn your lesson and move on.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I was part I was personally wrong on like
Speaker 4: some of my early Russia coverage.
Speaker 1: Was personally wrong on that. That's okay, you said it
Speaker 1: was wrong.
Speaker 5: That's what happens, and people will say I was wrong.
Speaker 5: I think you know where I was. If we made
Speaker 5: a mistake and we got something wrong, we would say it.
Speaker 5: That's the whole point about having an independent media.
Speaker 1: But you also have.
Speaker 5: To have to have a media that has rules and
Speaker 5: that's accountable. That doesn't happen on social media. There's no accountability.
Speaker 5: And I think that, but you know, maga.
Speaker 1: Folks realize that, and so they put out disinformation.
Speaker 6: But has has CNN ever said that there actually was
Speaker 6: not never proven collude usion between as Trump campaign and
Speaker 6: the I don't think that they ever had it.
Speaker 4: Washington posted a whole series rebutting its own coverage.
Speaker 5: Interestingly enough, beyond CNN, I think that there there are
Speaker 5: accounts of collusion, but you have to ask c in it.
Speaker 4: Well, Don, you said a couple of minutes ago that
Speaker 4: you don't want to be confrontational, but big confrontational is fun.
Speaker 4: And we really appreciate, we really appreciate your willingness.
Speaker 3: Actually answer the test question.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for your tips. We appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. It was great talking to you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we appreciate it so much. Don is the host
Speaker 4: of the Don Lemon Show. It's streaming everywhere now. Thank
Speaker 4: you so much, Don for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Ryan.
Speaker 4: We could have kept doing that for three hours. At
Speaker 4: some point, it's like I cannot relitigate the extent of
Speaker 4: CNN's Russia collusion coverage, which I could argue for hours
Speaker 4: was terrible, Like we just are not on the same
Speaker 4: page on that, But I thought it was good to
Speaker 4: get some contrast.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and my view on that one has always been that,
Speaker 6: you know, Putin was clear that you know, he hated
Speaker 6: Hillary Clinton. But what CNN and others were saying is
Speaker 6: that there was active collusion between the Trump campaign and
Speaker 6: Putin and there was just never any evidence to support that.
Speaker 6: There was that one meeting in Trump Tower that got
Speaker 6: played up a ton that sort of so.
Speaker 4: CNN botched one of those stories.
Speaker 6: Actually I think they did the Alpha Bank anyway. All
Speaker 6: that aside, Back when I was at the Hovington Post,
Speaker 6: we had MSNBC, CNN, and Fox on all the time.
Speaker 6: And I left there in twenty seventeen, and so after
Speaker 6: ten years of cable getting blasted at me all day long,
Speaker 6: every day, I basically have not watched cable since then
Speaker 6: other than what clips get put up on Instagram or
Speaker 6: Twitter or whatever else.
Speaker 3: And I think my.
Speaker 6: Mental health in my life is much better for It's
Speaker 6: it's interesting to talk to Don knowing that he's like
Speaker 6: a big cable guy, but also not having he's not
Speaker 6: actually wasn't actually part of my media diet unless he
Speaker 6: got clipped onto Twitter saying something crazy.
Speaker 4: And I really meant what I said when I mentioned
Speaker 4: that Rick Wilson clip, which we had it pulled up,
Speaker 4: but our conversation was going so didn't roll it.
Speaker 3: But we can put it in post that Lemon.
Speaker 4: Is laughing hysterically alongside Rick Wilson and Waliid, just laughing
Speaker 4: uproariously at this very classiest impression of a Trump voter.
Speaker 4: And that's why I actually just want to say I
Speaker 4: genuinely appreciate that Lemon came on the show. I don't
Speaker 4: think he knows who the hell we are, but I
Speaker 4: genuinely appreciate. I know he's promoting his show, but we're
Speaker 4: not ever going to if people don't aren't willing to
Speaker 4: do hard things to promote their shows. Frankly, we're never
Speaker 4: going to have some of these hard conversations. So good
Speaker 4: for him for coming on.
Speaker 6: Yeah, books and new shows are good things because it
Speaker 6: forces people to get out and talk to people that
Speaker 6: they would not the ones talk to one.
Speaker 4: Hundred percent, and that's why we can't tease exactly what
Speaker 4: it is yet. But one of the hottest books of
Speaker 4: the last year, last several years. Honestly, we're trying to
Speaker 4: set up a debate about.
Speaker 3: That hot we're talking about White Royal Rage.
Speaker 4: It's oh my gosh. Every bookstore I walk past in
Speaker 4: DC has like a stack of the It's been rebutted
Speaker 4: in like all of these different publications. It's been promoted
Speaker 4: in all these different publications. I'd say it's pretty hot.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's it's a good one. We'll have a good
Speaker 6: conversation about that, is it. We're still we're still working
Speaker 6: on the scheduling.
Speaker 4: Ryan is white enraged, so he's ready to rumble with
Speaker 4: that conversation. But I hope everyone enjoyed this first foray
Speaker 4: into some long form. I mean we've done very long
Speaker 4: interviews before. We did ted cruise for like a.
Speaker 3: Half an hour, but cruise back here.
Speaker 4: I bet it's come Fridays. That's what we'll be doing,
Speaker 4: long form debate, having some of these conversations. Now we can't,
Speaker 4: you can't get to everything in a discussion with Don Lemon.
Speaker 4: We would It would take us, you know, six hours
Speaker 4: probably to do that, but.
Speaker 3: I hope some of the world probably doesn't need that.
Speaker 4: Also getting Don Lemon to respond to the tchromsky climp
Speaker 4: clip that he had never seen beautiful.
Speaker 3: I like that beautiful.
Speaker 4: And that's what you get here at counterpoints and breaking points.
Speaker 4: So make sure to subscribe to get the version of
Speaker 4: the show, the full version of the show early. Other
Speaker 4: than that, we'll see you back next Wednesday and next Friday.
Speaker 3: There you go, see you then,