1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. We're gonna have a discussion 2 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: about a case that is so horrific. And it's not 3 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: just a case, it's several cases that just the mere 4 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: thought of will certainly give you pause when you begin 5 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 1: to think about what's going to happen to me when 6 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: I die. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags. 7 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: I am so pleased to welcome back to body Bags 8 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: my buddy, Dave Mac, investigative reporter with Crime Online. What 9 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: a day for you to come back. The cases we're 10 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: going to be discussing today, it would make stronger men, 11 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: certainly faint, I would think, and certainly something you probably 12 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: didn't think about when you got the call from me. Joe, 13 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: it's great to be back. I really appreciate the opportunity 14 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 1: to be here with you. First of all, every time 15 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: around you, I learned something that is totally foreign. You know, 16 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: something I didn't even know. I didn't no kind of thing. 17 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: But when I found out we were going to be 18 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: talking about a funeral home, what happens after we passed 19 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: from this world to whatever one believes is next. And 20 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: we all have different feelings about that, I've told you before. 21 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: My wife she believes in mausoleum, having that place to 22 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: go to visit the dead. I am of the mindset 23 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean much to me. But if I found 24 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: out somebody was doing something with my body after I 25 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: was gone that I didn't say they could do, I 26 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: would have a problem with that, A big problem, and 27 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: I think most people do. I think we have an 28 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: understanding that we live on this earth. We have certain 29 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: rights that we expect while we're alive, and we have 30 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: certain beliefs in when we die. Finding out that somebody 31 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: could do something to a loved one after they are gone, 32 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: that really grinds my gears and something I didn't see coming, Joe. 33 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: Most people, you don't give it a second thought most 34 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: of the time. The word victim gets thrown around a 35 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: lot nowadays. But can you say victimized the dead? Perhaps? 36 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: I think in the cases we're going to discuss today, 37 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: you're victimizing family. Let me ask you this, Joe. A 38 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: person dies, and at that point we know that a 39 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: body gets picked up and they get taken somewhere, and 40 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: after all the legal stuff, whether it's an autopsy or whatever, 41 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: that they end up at a funeral home. What is 42 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: the purpose of a funeral home? Where do we begin 43 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: in the process of the dead body. Funeral homes have 44 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: not been something that have been part of the human 45 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: story forever and ever. You know, if you're into the 46 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: Civil War and history, there are those images of the 47 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: transportable embalming service that they had during the Civil Wars. 48 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: The first time you actually saw it. Because these battlefields 49 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: were so distant, people began to get used to having 50 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: bodies embombed and that just wasn't the case. And the 51 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: reason was these battlefields were so far away the bodies 52 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: had to make it back to families to be buried. 53 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,399 Speaker 1: We hear about mummies and all that stuff, but that's 54 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: elite stuff. For the common everyday person. Funeral homes and 55 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, we're kind of a luxury, certainly, 56 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: the preparation of a body, and in order to do that, 57 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: you have to have a facility that is certified, that 58 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: is bonafid, that falls within the legal parameters of whatever 59 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: state you're living in, that's going to take care of 60 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: the remains and take care of them in an appropriate manner. 61 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: When you look at it from a familial standpoint, you're 62 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: putting a lot of trust into the hands of these 63 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: people that come to your home. If you have a 64 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: loved one that passes way at home, and it might 65 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: be reportable to the corner, but the corner releases. We 66 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: just call it releasing from the scene from a medical 67 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: legal perspective. Funeral home will take the body back and 68 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: then begin to prepare the body according to the families wishes. 69 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: And then you have bodies of individuals that passway. In hospitals, 70 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: it's kind of the same thing. The bodies will be 71 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: removed from the floor from the emergency room and taken 72 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: and when I say floor, I mean removed from the 73 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: med searge floor or wherever they are being treated ICU 74 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: and be placed in the morgue at the hospital, and 75 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: then a funeral home will come and remove the body. 76 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: That's actually how I got my start. I was working 77 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: as a morgue attendent in a hospital. The bodies will 78 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: be removed from the morgue by the funeral home and 79 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: taken and be prepped. Either they're going to be buried 80 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: or they're going to be cremated. There's a third option 81 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: that many people probably heard of, but they're not completely 82 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 1: aware of. And that is an anatomical donation, and that 83 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: does happen. It happens with some frequency, and each state 84 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: has an anatomical board. Bodies will be donated by families, 85 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: and they'll be sent to medical schools and they're used 86 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: for gross anatomy examinations to teach medical students based at 87 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: human anatomy. Not like reading in a book or dissecting 88 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: some animal like you did in biology class in high school. 89 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: I'm talking about actually doing a detailed dissection in a 90 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: gross anatomy lab at a medical school, and many times 91 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: bodies are donated for those purposes. Hey, when you say 92 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 1: gross anatomy, you're not talking like, oh gross, I mean 93 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: that's an actual medical term. Right. When you hear gross 94 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: anatomical dissection, you're talking about an overall dissection, as opposed 95 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: to say, if you're doing a microscopic examination where you're 96 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: looking at a very specific item. Gross anatomical dissection essentially 97 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: means that you have a sample or a specimen before 98 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: you and you begin the dissection at that point in time. 99 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: It happens not only from a teaching perspective, but if 100 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: someone goes into the hospital and they have a tumor removed, 101 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: or if they have a limb that is amputated, that 102 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: will be grossly dissected by the pathologist at the hospital 103 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: to try to understand the disease that this person is 104 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: suffering from. If I want to donate my body to science, 105 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: I can make that clear, this is what I want, 106 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: right yeah, and they'll do it. But you can't then 107 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: turn around and say, hey, I know Dave mac had 108 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: a lot of weird stuff going on with him. When 109 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: he dies, we're going to take it. You can't just 110 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: decide I'm going to take this body and not that one, right. No, No, 111 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: you can't. And that's why these decisions are left up 112 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: to families. I mean, you can pre prepare, and people 113 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 1: that decide that they want to make an anatomical gift 114 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: of their mortal remains can do it, and they do 115 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: it prior to death, and all of this is set 116 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: up in advance. And interestingly enough, and I'm not here 117 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: to advertise for anyone, but I've had several people ask 118 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,559 Speaker 1: me because I teach forensic science, and specifically in forensic science, 119 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: I teach medical legal death investigation, have people that ask me, Hey, 120 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: I'd really like to donate my body to the Body 121 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: Farm at the University of Tennessee. Now, if you've done 122 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: any study in forensics, you know what goes on up there. 123 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: It's the study of essentially decomposing remains. So people will 124 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: donate their body to be in a natural environment where 125 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: it will be studied as it begins to break down. 126 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: So there's any number of ways that bodies can be 127 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: donated and utilized after death. Oddly enough, it was the 128 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,799 Speaker 1: Casey Anthony trial where many of us about the body 129 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: Farm in Tennessee for the very first time because they 130 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: were able to scientifically utilize the smells, odors and things 131 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: like that that they were able to use at that 132 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: trial as they were researching what could have been in 133 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: the trunk of a car. Fascinating stuff, but still that's 134 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: something that you or your family has to decide that 135 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: nobody else gets to make that call. This has to 136 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: be either you doing this prior to death, or it 137 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: has to be your family making a decision on your 138 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: behalf at that point in time according to what they 139 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: believe your wishes were, because sometimes that does in fact happen. 140 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: For that purpose, you begin to think about if you 141 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: can donate your whole body is it possible that your 142 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: body can be piecemealed. Why would your body be piecemealed? 143 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: That is, parts of your body be taken and donated, 144 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: and in certain circumstances that of course can't happen. And 145 00:07:52,280 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: I think that goes to what we're talking about today. 146 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: When I hear the term donation, all kinds of thoughts 147 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: come to mind. I think about helping people most of 148 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: the time, but you think about in a medical sense donors, 149 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: people that do donations of their organs, people that donate 150 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: their eyes for those that can't see. But there is 151 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: a name that is going to stick with me for 152 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: a while, and it's the name of a business. It's 153 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: called Donor Services inside of Colorado, and it was run 154 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: by a woman named Megan Hess who was involved in 155 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: a situation where she not only had this donor services business, 156 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: but hang onto your hats, in the same building also 157 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: housed the funeral home that her family had owned for years, Dave, 158 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: this is absolutely horrific. A huge tip off is when 159 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 1: you have what is referred to as a body broker 160 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: and a crematorium slash mortuary funeral home in the same building. 161 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: To be straight up with you, it is scary to 162 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 1: think that we have a funeral home and hey, on 163 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: this side, go to the left, we creamate, go to 164 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: the right, we got your body parts. I would assume 165 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: these are in separate buildings away from one another, that 166 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: as a body is being prepared, the family has decided 167 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: this body has been donated to science, that they would 168 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: go towards the body donated to science. This one, oh, 169 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: we want to creamate or berry this one goes to 170 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: the funeral home. That's what I thought before today. I 171 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: think it probably goes without saying. With cremation it's obviously 172 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: less expensive. Then if you have a full on burial 173 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: where you're purchasing the casket and the prep of the body, 174 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: and of course the services that are associated with it, 175 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: opening up either a crypt or creating a grave with 176 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 1: a vault and all those sorts of things. Guess one 177 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: of the reasons they would want to do this, to 178 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: do a cremation is that it's cost effective. Other people 179 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: just believe that they would rather see the money that 180 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: is going to be left behind for their family to 181 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: go to some other purpose other than some expensive funeral. 182 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: But herein lies the problem. When you have a crematory 183 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: service like this, that is essentially attached to a business 184 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: that is titled donor services. You begin to think about, well, 185 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: what are the possibilities here, what's going on. Well, in 186 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: Hesse's case, along with her mother who also co owned 187 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: these businesses and had for years, what they were doing. Essentially, 188 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 1: as it came down to it, they were selling cremations 189 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: to families. All Right, they're saying, I'm going to take 190 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: care of your loved one. We're going to cremate the remains, 191 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: we will return them to you in some type of vessel, 192 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: nornate jar of some type, and will be done. But 193 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: that wasn't the case. It's estimated that hundreds, if not 194 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: thousands of cases that pass through there for the purposes 195 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: of cremation. These people were going back into a room 196 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: and actually dissecting off specific body parts of the deceased 197 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: and he smealing out the bodies. They would either sell 198 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: a piece of the bodies, say from knee to foot, 199 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: or from wrist to the tip of the fingers or 200 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: shoulder to the tip of the fingers. They would dissect 201 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: these bodies out for the purposes of anatomical study. To 202 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: what turned out to be not legitimate businesses or legitimate organizations. 203 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: They'd be paid great sums of money, and then the 204 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: remainder of this they would essentially cremate, or if they 205 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: had completely piecemealed out the body, just latch onto this. 206 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: If they had completely piecemealed out the body of a 207 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: family's loved one, they would essentially return an urn sealed 208 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: to the family containing something other than human remains that 209 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: had been burned, perhaps sawdust, perhaps would in some cases 210 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: it could have just been dirt that was given back 211 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: to the family. And all the while, you know, the 212 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: family thinks that they've got their loved ones here, maybe 213 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: in some special place in the home where they passed 214 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: by periodically think about them, think about the good times 215 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: that they had and how much they'd loved them. But 216 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 1: that's not what they had. These families had no idea 217 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: what had happened to their family members during those moments. 218 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: And that's to be crystal clear. Megan Hess and her mother, 219 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: Shirley Cott owned this business. People came in there. They 220 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: are at the lowest of low They've lost a loved 221 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: one and they are now going to go through the 222 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: process of as you mentioned, the creme a and the 223 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: return of the cremains in an urn, and that's what 224 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: they've been sold. Megan Hess sat there with families holding hands, 225 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: crying together. We're going to lovingly prepare your loved one. 226 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: And here you go. And I'm my biggest question and 227 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: this bothers me because I don't know the answer. My 228 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: mother was cremated. How do I know? I know what 229 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: the cremains looked like as we spread her ashes. Not 230 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: everybody does that, but we did, and I was shocked 231 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: at what came out of this bag. Okay, so Joe, 232 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: how do I know? How can I tell the difference 233 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: between the cremaines that I thought was my mother and 234 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: find out that it's dirt or maybe somebody else. It's 235 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: maybe somebody else's cremains. You can't, that is, unless you 236 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: want to go the extra step and invest in having 237 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: a scientific study conducted only cremaines. And You're right, Dave, 238 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: that's what they were referred to as they are called cremines, 239 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: to look for any kind of organic substances that are 240 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: not consistent with human mains that are left over after cremation. 241 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: Because the process of cremation is kind of it's something 242 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: that most people are not familiar with. When the body 243 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: is placed into the crematory, it's a gigantic oven that 244 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: actually operates off of natural gas. You've got multiple jets 245 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: that are in there that burn at an incredibly high temperature, 246 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: and after the body has been in there for a 247 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: period of time, the remains are literally rendered down. Now 248 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: they're not completely rendered down to the smallest particle at 249 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: that point in time, because there's another process that the 250 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: body has to go through. I've seen this happen in 251 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: a couple of different ways. You have two process. There 252 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: used to be a method where they would roll the 253 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: remains between two opposing large marble stones marble in some cases, 254 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: and those cremains that that remain are essentially crushed up. 255 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: Now it's more common to have this auger that kind 256 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: of spins around and it renders down the remains to 257 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: their s all this particulate component, so that it's virtually unrecognizable. 258 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: Of course, the most difficult thing to get rid of 259 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: in a cremation or the teeth, because the teeth are 260 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: the most resilient. So if you were in a legitimate 261 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: cremaine collection of cremains, if you were to look into that, 262 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: the ideal ideal. I'm not saying it happens every time, 263 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: but the ideal set of circumstances is that you would 264 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: only have essentially what appears to be dust before you. 265 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: And many times that does not completely happen. But in 266 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: this case, if you were a family member and you 267 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: were of a mind to go and open up the urn, 268 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: lord only knows what you would have in there, particularly 269 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: if it came from Hesse and her mother. It's legal 270 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: to donate body parts. It's legal to donate hard kidney lungs. 271 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: I guess all those things. We signed that off on 272 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: the back of our driver's license. But there has to 273 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: be some rule of thumb. Here's some law on the 274 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: books about hacking up my body and selling off the 275 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: parts without my family knowing. There has to be something there. 276 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: This sounds like a science fiction movie. It sounds like 277 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: some kind of horror film. But what is there to 278 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: prevent somebody from hacking off my arm and shipping it 279 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: off somewhere. There's any number of laws on the books 280 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: around the country relative to desecration of human remains, abuse 281 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: of a corpse, those sorts of things. But when it 282 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: comes to this particular sphere, all things are not the 283 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: same for every location. With the Hess case in particular, 284 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: one of the interesting things from the perspective of point 285 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: of law is that this case was not investigated because 286 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: some family member went and opened up the urn and said, oh, 287 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: my goodness, look here, I have something that just looks 288 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: out of place. I found a stone in here, or 289 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: I found a piece of wood in here, or something 290 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: like that. That's not the way this happened, because, as 291 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: it turns out, the FEDS actually began to look at 292 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: this from the perspective of fraud. You have an organization 293 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: like Hesse's facility, where they are essentially promising one thing, 294 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: and you have the family members paying for this very 295 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: specific thing and they're not receiving in return what they've 296 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: paid for. They're being defrauded. And that's what the FEDS 297 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: looked at with their investigation, and they put two and 298 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: two together because it's, like we said earlier on in 299 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: our conversation, you got a funeral home slash crematory and oh, 300 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: by the way, you got an anatomical services company that's here, 301 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: and you begin to look at these two things, and 302 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: I think the FEDS they even said, this is odd. 303 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: Why would you have these two things associated with one another, 304 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: you would think that the anatomical services or the donor 305 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: services would be a completely separate entity, and it certainly 306 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: wouldn't be on the same patch of ground with one another. 307 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: Non transplant anatomical donation a NATO is what that's referred 308 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: to as. And you think about that term non transplant. 309 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: The elements of the human remain that are sourced for 310 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: the purposes of medical training are those items that we 311 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: would not commonly associate with, say an organ transplant, you know, 312 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: where we think about heart, lungs, liver, kidney, eyes, those 313 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: sorts of things. This is a separate category. And this 314 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: is a category that Hess and her mother kind of 315 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: danced around on the edges of this business with where 316 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: they were actually advertising. They would go out and talk 317 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: about the types of services that they provided, and they 318 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: did have, essentially, at its found a legitimate business. But 319 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: possibly one of the problems that they ran into is 320 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: that they realized that they had a virtual goldmine on 321 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: their hands. And I mean that literally, Dave. Not only 322 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: were they piecing out these bodies to go to the 323 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: study of anatomical structures, but they were actually extracting the 324 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: gold from people's teeth the dead. Can you imagine that 325 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: that was actually the offensive thing that got the ball 326 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: rolling Joe. In twenty eighteen, one of the workers who 327 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: had been an assistant manager in that facility, Shirley, caught 328 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: the sixty nine year old mother of Megan Hess. She 329 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: actually took this employee and showed her her collection of 330 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: gold teeth. She was removing gold teeth and keeping them, 331 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: and later Shirley actually took the gold teeth and sold 332 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: the gold out of them and took a family trip 333 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: to Disneyland. That's what got this former employee so incensed 334 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: that she went to the press. An article began in 335 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: an eight part series was done by Reuters that the 336 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: FBI saw and they were like, well, wait a minute, 337 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: so they started digging into it and that's where all 338 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: of this began to collapse for Megan and her mother, Shirley. 339 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: But there's one family in particular, Joe, that came out 340 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: of it, and this is the shocking reality. A man 341 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: named Jeff Peacock. His mother and father passed away in 342 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. They've been together a long time and Joe. 343 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: They died within days of one another. Jeff's dad Harry 344 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: had negotiated their cremains before he did everything. He was 345 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: shopping around for the best deal, and he settled with 346 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: Megan Hess at Sunset masa funeral and paid for everything 347 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: so that when they did pass it wouldn't be left 348 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: to the family to decide anything. They were cremated and 349 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: interred within days of one another. We're talking August tenth. 350 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: Harry was buried August twelfth, his wife passes away. It 351 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: was five years later, in twenty and eighteen, when the 352 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: story broke. The FBI calls their son Jeff and says, hey, 353 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: we need to talk to you about something. Those cremains 354 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: that are in that earned, they're not your mom and dad. 355 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: We've been able to trace that your dad's body was 356 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: parted out and parts of your mother are gone as well. 357 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: That's what this man gets hit with. Five years, six 358 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: years after his parents are dead, he finds out that 359 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: this place they trusted parted out his body after death, 360 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: and the place they've been going with flowers and everything 361 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: else to share memories of their mom and dad, their 362 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: cremains are not there. I don't even know how you 363 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: plumb the depths of it. They say that there's two 364 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: things that will impact you in this world at a 365 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: real deep level. Let's divorce and death. Those two things, 366 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: and they run a close second. Death as it applies 367 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: to grieving. The grieving process, it takes just let's kind 368 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: of frame this a little bit. It takes a while, 369 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: obviously for you to make it through the identifiable steps 370 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: of grief. Okay, it's a tough process. I know many 371 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: people in my listening audience can certainly identify with it. 372 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: In I've lost a child, My family has lost a 373 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: number of people over the years, and it's one of 374 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: these things that you just you work your way through it, 375 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: and there are identifiable steps. But can you imagine can 376 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: you begin to imagine that you're working your way through 377 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: such a traumatic life event where you have not just one, 378 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: but two parents that die, and at least from chronological standpoint, 379 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,719 Speaker 1: they die within a very short period of time of 380 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: one another. How impactful that is. It's like getting hit 381 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: in the chest with a ten pound sledge hammer. And somehow, 382 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: some way, you make it through those stages. You get 383 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: this far out and down the road with the process, 384 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: you get this phone call to let you know from 385 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: this total stranger called you out of the ballue and says, hey, look, 386 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: I hate to tell you this, but mom and dad, 387 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: their remains were sold. They were sold on the market. 388 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: You sit there and you think, you know those hands 389 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: that suthed me when I was a sick child, those 390 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: hands that disciplined me, those hands that wrapped me up 391 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: and loved me when I was hurting, those hands that 392 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: cooked meals from me, They're gone. You have no idea 393 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: where they are. You thought that they were somewhere else. 394 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,479 Speaker 1: You thought that they were in a different state. And 395 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: I mean that in you have agreed to have them cremated, 396 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,719 Speaker 1: but they're there with you, under your watchful eye, your protection. 397 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: Now you find out that the memory that you're going 398 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: to have, you can't. I don't know that there's any 399 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: way that you could ever really get past this at 400 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: this point. I don't know that I could ever measure 401 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: my level of anger that would rise up in me, 402 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: Dave in a case like this. And that's the part 403 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: that they had to deal with when prosecuting these two. 404 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 1: What they did, this mother daughter team, they sold a 405 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: billy goods to people that were grieving and lied to them. 406 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: They ostensibly stole at least two hundred bodies and sold 407 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: them for profit. On top of that, Joe, I was 408 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: going to ask you, I don't know who buys these bodies, 409 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: but I know that when they're buying body parts or 410 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: bodies in whole, they're actually requiring them to not have 411 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: certain diseases. I'm certain of that. And we know for 412 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: a fact that Megan hasn't. Her mothers they lied about 413 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: the condition. Some of these bodies were HIV positive and 414 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: they lied about it. Yeah, HIV positive. And you had 415 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: a couple of the help groups that were involved too, 416 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: which people talk about how contagious HIV is, and it is, 417 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: but when compared to help you're in a completely different 418 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: realm at that point in time. And so the general 419 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: public is being exposed to these diseases, certainly anybody that's 420 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: working in a postal service or any kind of transport 421 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: services that is the means for these bits of anatomy 422 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: to be conveyed from one spot to the other. I 423 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: don't know, it sounds so simplistic me saying this. It's 424 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: like the height of selfishness and greed. You begin to 425 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: look at this, that you would take this kind of risk, 426 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: expose people out there far and wide to whatever you 427 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: know is going on from a pathology standpoint with these 428 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: remains that you had control of, but yet you're exposing 429 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: everybody to them just so that you can enrich yourself. 430 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: I would think that the families would want the stiffest, 431 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: harshest penalties that could possibly be imposed on these two 432 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: that they could possibly get, But I gotta tell you, 433 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 1: I don't know if there's enough time in jail that 434 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: you could assign to these individuals or sentence them too. 435 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: They were allowed to plea to take all the charges 436 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 1: and plea it down and have some charges dropped, and 437 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: I don't think the families are totally satisfied. I know 438 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: that there has been an appeals processed, but I did 439 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: want to point one last little bit out, Joe to 440 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: just to make it if it can be any worse. 441 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: You know, when they sat with these families, they discussed donation, 442 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: they discussed donating bodies to science, and there were instances 443 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,479 Speaker 1: where the family, for personal or religious reasons, outright rejected that, 444 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: said absolutely not, we won't even consider that, and they 445 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: did not care. They did it anyway, a violation that 446 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: goes beyond anything I can even imagine, I'm glad you 447 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: pointed that out day, because you're not talking about a 448 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 1: perpetrator here that just committed fraud by essentially dissecting someone's 449 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: loved one and selling their anatomical parts. You're talking about 450 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,959 Speaker 1: somebody that, in certain cases had specific instructions I do 451 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: not want this to happen, but yet they went ahead 452 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: and move forward with it. This takes this to an 453 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: entirely different level. Look, and I got to say something here. 454 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: I've got a lot of friends who are physicians or surgeons, 455 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: this sort of thing that I've run across over the years. 456 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: One of the things that you have to do as 457 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: a medical student and as a resident is learn how 458 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: to train, for instance, just doing suitoring, learning how to suiture. 459 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: I know many cases where surgeons people that were pursuing 460 00:26:55,119 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: surgical residencies, they would essentially take pigs and there would 461 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: be incisions that would be made into pigs, and they 462 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: would learn how to suiture on these deceased animals. And 463 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: when you have an opportunity to have actual sample from 464 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: a human being where you can study it and understand 465 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: the impact of what you're doing as a surgeon or 466 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: as a treating physician, I think that that's very important 467 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: and it's certainly something that's needed. There are legitimate businesses 468 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,479 Speaker 1: out there that provide the service, and it's something I 469 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: think that is a requirement that you have access to 470 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: because you want the most highly skilled people out there 471 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: working in the medical community that take care of us. 472 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: But circumstances like this, I can't imagine in my wildest 473 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:49,360 Speaker 1: fantasies why anybody would take delivery from an individual that 474 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: was peacemealing human remains just so that they could make 475 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: a profit. And they did plea bargain it down. Sentences 476 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: have been passed surely. College sixty nine year old mother 477 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: and co owner of the facility, she was sentenced to 478 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: fifteen years in prison. She played guilty to one kind 479 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: of male fraud and aiding at a betting. Her daughter, 480 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: Megan hess At forty six, was sentenced to twenty years 481 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: in prison. You know, as I mentioned, there was a 482 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: lot of pleaing going on and that was what they 483 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 1: were able to negotiate a twenty year sentence that was appealed, 484 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: that was upheld by the court on mail fraud and 485 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: aiding and a betting. They are going to prison. Shirley coage, 486 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: maybe for life, with a fifteen year sentence at nearly 487 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: seventy years old. Megan Hess, she'll still get out while 488 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 1: she's still alive. A lot of the family is not 489 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 1: happy about that. Joe, Yeah, and I can't imagine that. 490 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: I don't know that there's any amount of time that 491 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: she could give to these people that would repair the 492 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: damage that's been done. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 493 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: is Body Backs.