1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,239 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: You know, we've covered a lot of UFO beliefs on 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: the show over the years, talk about alien abduction experiences, 6 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: strange lights in the sky, ancient aliens, speculation, and we've 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: covered it all with our usual level of skeptical enthusiasm. 8 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: I would say, not coming at it in order to 9 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: prove all the stories true and believe, but also appreciating 10 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: that fantastical beliefs and experiences and even delusions are interesting 11 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: phenomena that are worth studying and paying attention to. Yeah, 12 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: why are people reporting these stories? What what is actually 13 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: occurring that might be interpreted as such? And and then 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: why do we tell the stories that we tell? Like, 15 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: all these questions are sort of bound up in the 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: same riddle. But to refresh, this is the basic truth 17 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: of the matter. Humans have always seen things they couldn't explain, 18 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: and some of these things were actual phenomena, such as 19 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: shooting stars or unusual weather effects. Other times these were 20 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: hallucinations which can occur can occur for a variety of reasons, only, 21 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: some of which entail the ingestion of psychedelics or symptoms 22 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,639 Speaker 1: of mental illness, and in either case, things seen became 23 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: become things remembered. And memory is a tricky thing all 24 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: in its own, highly susceptible to error, to manipulation, and 25 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: change due to personal desires, interpretations, cultural priming, and a 26 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: host of other factors. Yeah, that's exactly right. And one 27 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: of the things that I often think about doesn't get 28 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: enough attention when when people discuss fantastical experiences like say, 29 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: you know, UFO abduction experiences and sightings and things like that, 30 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: is is all of these in between categories that create 31 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: memory experiences for people or create you know, at least 32 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: in some way or another, lead a person to relate 33 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: and experience that are not exactly one of three clear options. 34 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: The three clear options usually presented are somebody actually physically 35 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: had this UFO abduction experience, they really were taken up, 36 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: or they're lying and they're just making up a story 37 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: they know to be false. Or they hallucinated it like 38 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: they had a vision where they imagine that they really 39 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: believed all this stuff was happening to them at the time, 40 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: and that you know, and then they remember that hallucination 41 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: as if it was a real physical event. I think 42 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: those are actually not the only three options. They usually 43 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: treated as like the main three things that could have happened. 44 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: I think what gets underappreciated or these sort of like 45 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: weird middle categories where you know, where like imagination and 46 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: fancy and retelling and embellishment and all these different kinds 47 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: of things sort of interact in a stew within the mind. 48 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: And there's so many ways this can happen. One piece 49 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: of research that I always just think it's such an 50 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: interesting little example of demonstrating how contagious imagery and ideation 51 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: can be between one brain subsystem and another is a 52 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: two thousand six study called do you Remember Proposing Marriage 53 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: to the Pepsi Machine? False recollection? False recollections from a 54 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: campus walk And this was in the Psychonomic Bulletin and 55 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: Review two thousand and six by by Semen, Philbin, and Harrison. 56 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: And basically the gist here is that students were asked 57 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: to perform, and too so somewhere asked to perform, and 58 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: some were asked to merely imagine themselves performing or imagine 59 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: seeing somebody perform activities, both normal like checking a pepsi 60 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: machine for change or lying down on a couch to relax, 61 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: and also actions that were bizarre, like proposing marriage to 62 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: a pepsi machine or lying down on a couch to 63 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: have a chat with Sigmund Freud. And it turned out 64 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: in this study at least that even just imagining performing 65 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: these activities caused many subjects to later recall having actually 66 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: performed them. Of course, this doesn't always happen, like sometimes 67 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: you remember the difference, but sometimes you don't remember the difference. 68 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: Sometimes the contents of our minds I are contagious in 69 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: a way that can spread into memory. Things that we 70 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: think about happening, can in some cases become things that 71 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: we believe happened. And this is possible in people who 72 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: have not been diagnosed with any conditions that cause psychosis 73 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: or hallucinations. It's just one of the many interesting ways 74 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: that you can see uh memories being meddled with in 75 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: in this kind of contagious way within the brain. And 76 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: of course we do outright invent things, sometimes in full things. 77 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: We have terrifying visions, and certainly there are hoaxes in 78 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: the world. But still even with hoaxes. There's there's still 79 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: this element of the human imagination that ultimately helped the 80 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: dream of every god, demon, fairy and an extraterrestrial that 81 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: we've ever considered. And once these things are created, they're 82 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: essentially available as food, uh for our meaning hungry minds. 83 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,799 Speaker 1: And so the version of all of this that emerged 84 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: in the post War War two period and continues on 85 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: to this day, though with decreased energy, is that of 86 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: the alien UFO, the unidentified flying object, the the the 87 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: alien visitation. And uh. Today we're zeroing in on one 88 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: particular aspect of UFO folk belief, one with some insightful 89 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: connections potentially to older religious ideas. We're gonna be talking 90 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: about m I B. Men in Black. Should I sing 91 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: the song from the movie. No, I don't think we 92 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: should do that. I don't want to get night Cheese done. 93 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: Here's right. Uh. So, to be clear, where the Men 94 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: in Black franchise, I don't even aggressively pursues. I p 95 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: that is a big franchise that we're still going strong. 96 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: There's the first one came out, but yeah, there's there's 97 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: a new one coming out like in the next year. 98 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: I don't think I ever saw past the first one. 99 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: I think I too, have only seen the first one. 100 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: Uh they maybe the other ones may be great. I 101 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: don't know, but we're not really talking about those movies today. However, 102 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: those movies are based on I believe they were based 103 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: on a comic book. But but the whole franchise is 104 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: based on this concept of Men in Black. Uh, the 105 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 1: end result doesn't really do the original idea justice in 106 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: my opinion. Um, even though many of us me included, well, 107 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: you know, we learned about Men in Black for the 108 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: first time through watching this n sci fi action comedy. 109 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: You know, I can't be positive, but I know I 110 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: watched a lot of terrible like BS fringe documentaries when 111 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: I was a kid, you know, all the stuff about 112 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: how I think I've said this on the show before. 113 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: When I was in like second or third grade, I 114 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: was big into like cockness, monster UFOs. I was convinced 115 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: all that was real, and I think I I had 116 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: watched like, I don't know what it was, it whatever 117 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: masqueraded as like educational programming on television that was just 118 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: like propaganda for conspiracy theories and beliefs about the paranormal. Oh, 119 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: I too was very confused by episodes of specifically in 120 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: Search Off hosted by Leonard Nimoi and Unsolved Mysteries hosted 121 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: by Robert Stack. However, I don't I don't remember. There 122 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: may have been episodes of Unsolved Mysteries that Involvement in Black, 123 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: but if there were, I don't remember seeing. Well, I 124 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I saw something at some point that 125 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: made me aware of the concept. But even if I 126 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: wasn't aware, then yeah, definitely the movie came along. I 127 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: think maybe I don't know if it was before or 128 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: after the Men in Black movie. There was the episode 129 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: of The X Files Jose Chunks from Outer Space, which 130 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: is one of the best episodes of all time. It 131 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: still holds up today. It's so good, it's so funny, 132 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: and it has classic Men in Black cameos in It 133 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: isn't the idea here that the Men in Black take 134 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: on the guys of famous individuals, of celebrities so that 135 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: you can't report it to the police without sounding ridiculous, 136 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: which is funny because in in the episode you can 137 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: tell they kind of did their research. This sort of 138 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: mirrors real things that people reported about Men in Black experiences. 139 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: Sometimes people said that the experience would be, you know, 140 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: ridiculous or absurd, as in the implication is, oh, it's 141 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: because they wanted to keep everything hush hush, and so 142 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: they knew if they acted absurd, I wouldn't be able 143 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: to tell people without them laughing at me. Now, some 144 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: of you out there, you might have heard about Men 145 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: in Black through at least a couple of different films 146 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: that came out. One came out in nine same year 147 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: as Men in Black, titled The Shadow Men, and I 148 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: have not seen this yet, but I saw the trailer. 149 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: It looks fabulous in a n way, featuring Eric Roberts, 150 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: Dean Stockwell, and Andrew Pine, and uh, it's more of 151 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: it seems to be more of a traditional Men in 152 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: Black movie with with these like weird, tall suited individuals 153 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: with dark glasses that are messing with their protagonists trying 154 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: to keep them from sharing some sort of information with 155 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: the world about UFOs, and then upon closer inspection they 156 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: don't seem to be quite human. And then there's a 157 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: there's a much earlier actually Men in Black plot line 158 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: in a movie from nineteen eight titled titled Hanger eighteen, 159 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: but certainly by the time that the Men in Black 160 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: came out by the time, you know, the X Files, 161 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: that had ample opportunity uh to uh to educate everyone 162 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: about the idea. We saw all sorts of other echoes 163 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: in various bits of media. For instance, the Thin Men 164 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: and the X Calm Games are classic men in black 165 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: characters like uh, thin thin guys in suits with weird 166 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: um facial features that are not quite human. Uh. They're 167 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: a doctor who I believe has a species called the 168 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: Silence that show up. They're very men in black esque, 169 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: and even a couple of ultimately you know, rather different 170 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: bits of cinema, But the the Agents from the Matrix 171 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: are essentially men in black. The Strangers of Dark City 172 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: are in many ways men in black. That's interesting. I 173 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: hadn't thought about that with the with the Strangers, I 174 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: definitely see it with the agents. Um. Well, before we 175 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: get into the particulars, let's just try to sketch out 176 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,119 Speaker 1: the broad kind of version of the men in Black folklore. 177 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 1: What what would you say is that the broadest possible 178 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: interpretation of it. It's that most commonly somebody becomes in 179 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: some way involved with UFO lore. They either have a 180 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: UFO experience, they see a UFO, or they have an 181 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: abduction experience, or they begin researching UFO phenomena, that's right, 182 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: And then suddenly men wearing black show up, weird possibly 183 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: government law enforcement types who are who suddenly show and 184 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: want to suppress you, want to silence you, either after 185 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: you have shared your claim of of UFO sightings or 186 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: what have you, or in many cases before you share it. Yeah, 187 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: so they tend to often be fond of like blacks, 188 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: large black sedans, cadillacs. They come and they approach you, 189 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: the person who is interested in UFOs for some reason 190 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: or doing UFO research or how do UFO experience. They 191 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: tell you either you didn't see what you think you saw, 192 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: or they tell you to stop researching, or they tell 193 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: you to stop spreading the word about UFOs, or occasionally, 194 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: in some reports it's exactly the opposite. Sometimes people in 195 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: black suits, men in black suits or black hats or 196 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: whatever show up to say, actually, keep going and keep digging, 197 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: there's more to see, there's more to learn. Yeah, they 198 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: take out more of like a like a deep throat 199 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: persona and stories and throwing their lots of variegated weirdness, 200 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: you know, just sort of like strange flourishes on the story. Right, 201 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: So let's put all this in context. I start talking 202 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: about the time for aim here because I think the 203 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: more we talk about it, the more obvious it becomes. 204 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: Like where these elements, like even the deep throat element 205 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: and the element of like like government corruption, uh, spies 206 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: and espionage and what have you, where it all comes from. 207 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: So reading around about this, it seems like the sort 208 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: of the patient zero for all of this was a 209 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: man by the name of Harold Doll. This when all 210 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: of this took place. So claims were made by Fred 211 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: Krismin and Harold Doll about threats by men in Black 212 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: following sightings of UFOs and the skies over Mari Island 213 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: in the Puget Sound. Uh. And this was related in 214 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: Gray Barker's six book that they knew too much about 215 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 1: flying saucers, which this book helped popularize stories of men 216 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: in Black. Um, you know a lot of this is like, 217 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: you know, this is the people who are into UFOs, 218 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 1: like this is these are the texts they were reading 219 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,959 Speaker 1: and sharing and and then um basing some of their 220 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: experiences on. So another brief thing about timeline is while 221 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: various forms of paranormal abduction experiences seemed to go way 222 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: back in time. The UFO thing really seemed to pick 223 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: up around and after World War Two. And you can 224 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: offer all kinds of reasons for this. I mean, some 225 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: would have to do with, like say, alleged sightings of 226 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 1: UFO by Allied you know, pilots and Air Air Force 227 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: personnel during the war. Um. But other things might be 228 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: might have to do with certain trends in science fiction 229 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: movies and things like that. Now another case, and this 230 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: one was related by Peter M. Roycewitz, who wrote a 231 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: really important paper that we're going to come back to 232 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: because I don't want to spoil what we're talking about 233 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 1: bye bye by saying the title just yet, we will 234 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: come back to it. I mentioned in nineteen fifty two 235 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: in Connecticut, you had this guy by the name of 236 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: Albert K. Binder. So Binder lived with his stepfather in 237 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: the top floor of a house described by a local 238 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: newspaper as a quote chamber of horrors. But I mean 239 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: this seems like but basically they had a bunch of 240 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: Halloween decorations up in his room. That sounds fun, Yeah, 241 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: I mean that's like my room growing up. So you know, 242 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: nobody ever said it was a chamber of hars anyway, 243 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: uh Binder was a big sci fi fan, and he 244 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: wrote a letter to a friend state quote stating that 245 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: he had learned the origin and ultimate goal of extraterrestrial 246 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: visitation on the Earth unquote. But then he claims that 247 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: what happened is suddenly Men in Black came up and 248 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: they confronted him telepathically with the intercept about the intercepted letter, 249 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: and then forced him to shut down his various UFO 250 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: interest projects. I mean at least for a while, because 251 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: he later writes a book about all of it and 252 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: claims that the Men in Black were from another planet, 253 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: among a whole host of other wild claims. Was this 254 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: the one about going to Antarctica? I believe? And yeah, yeah, 255 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: so it's it's wild in a way that like, like 256 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: you you kind of want to tell him, like stop, 257 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: you stopped there because you had like a compelling story, 258 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: just the right number of fantastic elements. But then you 259 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: just you kept going with it. Uh So, Roy so 260 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: at See points out that the Men in Black stories 261 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: they really flourished for a very brief time in between 262 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six and nineteen sixty seven, with multiple UFO 263 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: researchers claiming that they had m IB encounters they either 264 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: encountered them alone or impairs, though mostly in threes. And 265 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: they claim that these individuals, you know, they showed up 266 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: and they know way too much about them. They know about, 267 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: you know, what their UFO experience might have been, what 268 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: the details are, and and no, you know, and they 269 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: know about it before you you even had a chance 270 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: to go and tell other people about it. And a 271 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: lot of these tales seem to be inspired or colored 272 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: by Cold War espionage fiction. Uh, you know, they often 273 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: claimed the men in black often claim to be military 274 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: intelligence offers, officers or so the stories go, well, yeah, 275 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: with the you know, sixty six sixty seven, it's hard 276 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: not to miss the timing with like the James Bond 277 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: franchise there and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, and 278 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: just the idea of like shadowy government figures, you know, 279 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: at large. So interestingly enough, during the height of all 280 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: of this, according to m royce Witz, a confidential correspondence 281 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: from the Pentagon went out to intelligence command centers telling 282 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: them to notify the Office of Special Investigations if anyone 283 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: pretending to be a military officer attempted to strong arm 284 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: UFO witnesses, which which is interesting because I guess it's 285 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: the The idea here is that if enough people were 286 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: claiming it, they probably said, look, be alert, just in 287 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: case there's anybody going around pretending to be uh law 288 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: enforcement or a federal law enforcement and messing with UFO people. 289 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: I think the most common allegation was that that they 290 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: were somehow associated with the Air Force, right, because they're 291 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: the Air Force, they should know, right. Yeah, well, I 292 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: think back then the Air Force might have had a stranger, 293 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: more futuristic connotation than it does today. Now the Air 294 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: Force just seems like a more mundane branch of the 295 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: armed services. That's a good point. I hadn't thought about 296 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: that now. There's also there's a lot of stuff in 297 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: them in Men in Black Lore that doesn't necessarily, in 298 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: many cases thankfully does not survive into our science fiction. 299 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: For instance, Roy Switz points out that there's this whole 300 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,719 Speaker 1: anti Semitic strain of Men in Black lore from that 301 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: time period that entailed to just a bunch of anti 302 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: Semitic nonsense, which isn't surprised, and given the long history 303 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: of blood libel and conspiracy theories about the Jewish people, 304 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 1: and and how easily modern conspiracy theories fall back into 305 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: this same down the same well as as well. Um 306 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: And if you if you want to see this for yourself, 307 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: just spend fifteen minutes on the internet, Like you, just 308 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: go go to YouTube and start looking around conspiracy theories 309 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,479 Speaker 1: and see how long it takes you to hit something 310 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: just overtly anti Semitic. Unfortunately, the conspiracy theory spaces uh 311 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: often just run through with this stuff, right, and then 312 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: it goes beyond um anti semitism. There's also a trend 313 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: to describe men and black agents as Asian or ethnically 314 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: ambiguous in some way, shape or form generally embodies a 315 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: kind of like white American chauvinism. Uh and and just 316 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: general idea. I mean it almost just suggests that what 317 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: could you do to make somebody weirder while you just 318 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: generally make them not a white American? Right? So royce 319 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: Witz shares the two account by one Michael Elliott, and 320 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: I'm just going to read a passage from it here. Quote. 321 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: He had a dark complexion, but not Oriental or Indian, 322 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: but dark. He had black hair with something of the 323 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: greasy looks something looking somewhat punk by today's standards. He 324 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: was very thin, with a chiseled nose and chin and 325 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: had shrunk and it had sunken eyes. The man wore 326 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: a black suit that needed ironing and possibly cleaning. He 327 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: had on a white shirt and a black Texan like 328 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: string tie. Later, when he rose to leave, I remember 329 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 1: noting that the suit was much too large for him, 330 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: despite his being over six ft as I estimated it. 331 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: So there's a lot to unpack their like just so 332 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: much of the like the racial other so many like 333 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: just racist ideas about like uncleanliness and and so forth. 334 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: But also though something that's strange and kind of different 335 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: there is that I feel like later on the men 336 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 1: in black phenomena came to be much more associated with 337 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 1: like the black suits, meaning a kind of government associated 338 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: authority and power. I think about like the cigarette smoking 339 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: man in um in the X Files and stuff, as 340 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: opposed to the kind of like weird rumple, like the 341 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: suit needed cleaning and it was too big for him. 342 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: That that doesn't seem like it really fits with the 343 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: what would end up as the later standard idea of 344 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: men in black. Yeah, because certainly by the time you 345 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: get to you know, the more X files version of it, 346 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: and these these variations that you see in the matrix. 347 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: For instance, it's very much an idea of men in 348 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: black as a symbols and or at least foot soldiers 349 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: of top down government conspiracy, anonymous faceless authorities that they 350 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: sort of like represent anonymized power. And yet in these 351 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: earlier stories there were also some other additional weird factors. 352 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: We already mentioned that the Air Force Association. But then 353 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: there are these additional dimensions to the lore in which say, 354 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: for instance, they have exaggerated characteristics that are almost comical, 355 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: like they walk with a crazy gait, almost drunken lye uh. 356 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: There's one account that Royce Wits shared whether it's you know, 357 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: just talking about them just walking like in a weird way, 358 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: with like as if their hips were swivel joints, gliding 359 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,239 Speaker 1: and rocking effect. I mean, one gets the image of 360 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: the Ministry of Funny walks in your head when you 361 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: when you read these, uh, these stories. But he stresses that, 362 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: you know, one has to to again consider this from 363 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: the vantage point of both tradition and experience. So tradition 364 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: bears keep the lore of something like men in black 365 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: alive through everything from weird fiction and movies to oral 366 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: accounts and uh, you know, like UF all of publications, um, 367 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: and even though they haven't necessarily experienced and the experienced 368 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: it themselves. And then you have passive tradition bearers who 369 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: know about it but don't actually pass it along. And 370 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: then there are those who claim to have definite experiences 371 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 1: with men in black and they tell their stories, which 372 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: of course may may vary wildly. So it's it's I 373 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: think it's a great way to look at something like 374 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: this and the interplay between these different categories interpretation of 375 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: paranormal experience via established lore and then accounts giving selective 376 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: credence to that lore and inspiring new details as well, 377 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: but again very selectively. So you know, it's like someone's saying, oh, 378 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: you know, I read this story there are men in 379 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: black going around and they're they're suppressing the truth about 380 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: aliens visiting our world. And then someone's like, yeah, I 381 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: had this this really weird thing that happened the other 382 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: day where these people in black suits showed up and 383 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, yeah, this is lining up. And then 384 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: they took me to ant Arctica and then they and 385 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: then we were in ant and Arctica, I'm Jesus and 386 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, like and then they'll say, well, okay, Well, 387 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: still the basic principle lines up, and that supports my 388 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: my story right there, Like you can discard the stuff 389 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: about Antarctica but still say, well, like, well, meeting men 390 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: in black suits is not implausible exactly. Alright, Well, I 391 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: think on that note, we're going to take a break, 392 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,959 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we're gonna get into the 393 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: more of the meat of the episode. We're going to 394 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 1: get into the reason that we chose the title for 395 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: today's episode. Uh m, I b or n ib men 396 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: in black or Nativity and black than all right, we're 397 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: back now, Robert. It seems correct me if I'm wrong, 398 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: that you were inspired to to want to talk about 399 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: this topic today because of this paper. It's an older paper. 400 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: It seems to be sort of a classic in the 401 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 1: ufology uh area. It was published in the Journal of 402 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: American Folklore in nineteen eight seven by Peter M. Roycewitz 403 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: about the men in black tradition. Is Is this what 404 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: got you into the subject? Yeah, I've never really looked 405 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: into men and black before. Aside from you know, seeing 406 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 1: some of these films that we've discussed, like as a 407 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: folklore tradition, as a folklore tradition, I haven't really read 408 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: anything about it, and then ran across this paper. Yeah, 409 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: the men in black experience and tradition analogs with the 410 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: traditional devil hypothesis. So obviously I'm instantly captivated. Um And 411 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: in case you didn't pick up on it, the title 412 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: of this episode the n ib Nativity and Black. That 413 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: is the Black Sabbath Song, one of the grades. So 414 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: in this paper he suggests that there's a lot of 415 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: room to compare the men in black figure with that 416 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: of the Christian devil. Okay, we can take a look 417 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,479 Speaker 1: at this. Specifically, he points to the tradition of the 418 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: devil as this kind of a comic trickster in the 419 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: eleventh through nineteen centuries, a shadow figure that serves as 420 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 1: a kind of counterpoint to that of a saint. And 421 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: I also have to add he didn't really get into this, 422 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: but it made me think back to um our discussions 423 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: in the past about witchcraft theorists and succubi and incubi. 424 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: The idea here was that while demons could take on 425 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: alluring forms, to tempt sinners to greater sin. Their guys 426 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 1: could not be complete because otherwise it wouldn't be fair 427 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: to the faithful. You needed there to be a tell. 428 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: So you might have a dude who's being seduced by 429 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: a demonic succubus. But unfortunately, while she mostly looks like 430 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: a beautiful woman, she's got I don't know, like bare 431 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: hands or something right or duck feet is specifically one 432 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,239 Speaker 1: that shows up in some of these old woodcuts, Like like, 433 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: if you're if you're a sinner, you're probably gonna either 434 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: not look at the feet, or you're gonna see the 435 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: feet and continue didn't see them and go on with 436 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: your sinning. But if you're faithful, then at the very 437 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: least you'll notice that there's some demonic pintages going on here, 438 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: and then you should really cut and run. You'll be 439 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: more observant, exactly. So I'm reminded of that. It feels 440 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: like there's a certain like level of that with the 441 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: uncanny um behavior and appearance that is often described in 442 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: these um Also going back to author Walter Stevens take 443 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: on witchcraft persecution that we've talked about in the past, 444 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: his idea was that it was in large part an 445 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: effort to prop up failing faith in the supernatural during 446 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: the early modern period. That's interesting. Yeah, we so we've 447 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: talked about this on the show before. But the idea 448 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 1: that people often have wrong is that they believe that 449 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: like witchcraft, persecution piqued in the Middle Ages and like 450 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: you know, the Medieval period. But that's not true, which 451 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: during an age of reason of everything seemed to be 452 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: on the uptick. Yeah, and that's when it really came about. 453 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: And so what the idea here is that if people 454 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: start having threats to the idea of their theology, of 455 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: their religious beliefs, they'll counter those threats with attempts to 456 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: prove it. And if you could prove that demons are real, 457 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: then you can prove that God is real. That's right. Heaven, 458 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: you know, it tends to be a little stingy and 459 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: dishing out proof of its existence. But if Hell can 460 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: provide us with physical proof and or and specifically carnal 461 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: exp orians by which to prove its reality, then that, 462 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: by extension, proves the reality of Heaven and really had 463 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: the reality of God. Now we don't know if Stephen's 464 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: interpretation here is correct, but I do think that's a 465 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: really interesting way of reading that historical fact, right, Yeah, 466 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: I think you know, and I think he would probably 467 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: agree that you have all these other factors involved as well, 468 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: certainly um an age of of of misogyny as well. 469 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: But but but I do wonder about all of that 470 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: in relation to men in black and UFOs because if 471 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: there is any doubt to the reality of UFOs and 472 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: alien abductions in your mind, and you would prefer to believe, 473 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: if you, like the poster want to believe, then if 474 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: you have strange men showing up and pressuring you to 475 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: be silent, well then that's even more evidence, right that 476 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: there's something here, there's some truth, because otherwise no one 477 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: would care if you shared the truth with the world, 478 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: right Yeah, the devils wouldn't be seducing all these people 479 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: if there if there weren't a god to fight against exactly. Yeah. 480 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: So again, Royce, it didn't really get into that idea, 481 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: but it's kind of my own ponderings. Now. He did 482 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: bring up the idea of tulpas in Tibetan mysticism. So 483 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: this is the notion that intense thought can materialize a 484 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: form a thought being and in this Men in Black. 485 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: They're they're kind of a tulpa of fear and anxiety 486 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: surrounding big brother. Tulpas or an interesting subject that we 487 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: can maybe return to. In fact, the listeners in the 488 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: past have asked us to do episodes on tulpas. Yeah, 489 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 1: we probably should. Then it would be a lot of fun. 490 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: Maybe we get to read with an excerpt from from 491 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: a Boges short story. Well, I do think there's something 492 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: interesting to talk about with the idea of tulpas as 493 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: materialized thought forms, sort of like you know, imagination manifested 494 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 1: as reality when it comes especially to like virtual worlds 495 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: and technology. You know, one of the things that the 496 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: technology philosopher, I don't know if he'd call himself that, 497 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: but i'd call him that Jared Lanier used to talk 498 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: about with like the possibilities afforded to us by things 499 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: like virtual reality, is the idea to not just play 500 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: games in virtual environments, but to be more manifestly and 501 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: directly creative than we could ever be in any other 502 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: kind of environment, to have methods through which we we 503 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: just continually refine our abilities to translate thoughts and creativity 504 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: directly into forms that can be sensed interesting. So you could, like, 505 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: you know, under this kind of ideal virtual reality environment, 506 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 1: you could have something like a tulpa. You could, you know, 507 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: just imagine something and then have it brought into being 508 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: in front of you and then interact with it. So, 509 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: as far as Roycewitz is um used the term here, 510 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: I think what we're talking about here is a kind 511 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: of subconscious projection of both the fear of mainstream rejection 512 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: by authority concerning UFO sightings, as well as a fear 513 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: of retribution. And I think this is interesting because we 514 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: do see this a lot, uh these days, you know, 515 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,959 Speaker 1: in messaging against political and cultural others. You know, like 516 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: in a political adversary is at once both the thing 517 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,479 Speaker 1: that doesn't take us seriously and is also actively working 518 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: against us in a dangerous way. So the enemy is 519 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: both inept and insidious at the same time. Is funny 520 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: umberto Echo, you know, pointed out that one of his 521 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: characteristics of fascism, as he described it, was that fascism 522 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: perceives its enemies as both impossibly powerful and extremely weak, 523 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: like at the same time, you know that that its 524 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: enemies constitute this overwhelmingly threatening plot against the power of 525 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: the you know, the fascist contingent in the state and 526 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: at the same time constantly talking about the weakness of 527 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: their enemies and denigrating what they can do in contrast 528 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: with the fascist's own strength is the minute. So I 529 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: wonder to what extent then, in black are kind of 530 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: a fear of and a desire for fascism, you know, 531 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: like like the fear of these these government enemies showing 532 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: up at your doorstep to suppress you, and also the 533 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: desire for it, like the validation that would come with it. Oh. Absolutely, 534 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: that's a really good point. I mean, that's something that's 535 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: always going on in like conspiracy theory psychology is you know, 536 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: if you not to say that there aren't real you know, 537 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: there are real conspiracies and real abuses of power and 538 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: all that, but in the ones that are more fanciful 539 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: and imaginary and based on you know, poor evidence and 540 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: all that, uh, where people just build these architectures of 541 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: shadowy organizations out there pulling the strings on all the 542 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: puppets everywhere. You can absolutely see this tension between of course, 543 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: like the fact that the conspiracy is a terrible thing 544 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: and you think it's a terrible thing, and you wouldn't 545 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: really want it to exist. But at the same time, 546 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: the fact that you believe in it kind of does 547 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: make you want it to exist, because because other people 548 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: don't believe you, and you want to be proven right, 549 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: and so evidence of this horrible, unimaginably bad thing actually 550 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: is kind of pleasurable and exciting to you. Yeah, and 551 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,719 Speaker 1: this gets This is something you see with UFO citing 552 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: experiences and alien abduction experiences as well, is that no 553 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: matter no matter to what degree the individual believes the 554 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: experience happened. And and I certainly want to drive that 555 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: home that there are there do soon to be cases 556 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: where people believe something happened and and and it may 557 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: be traumatic. Uh And and I don't want to dismiss 558 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: that trauma. But at the same time, like being a 559 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: part of it is to be a part of something important, 560 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: like the the the aliens came to me, So there 561 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: is something, if not important about me, then at least 562 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: my experience is important now. And and that that can 563 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: be empowering. And when we see that in in you know, 564 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: religion all the time too, uh, the idea that that 565 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: that's something out there in the universe takes interest in us. 566 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: Like that that is a value. So you know, sometimes 567 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: it's just nice that the Men in Black care. They 568 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: showed up and they can bake up cookies. Now, Rosso, 569 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: It's also connects the men in Black idea to that 570 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: of the Brothers of Shadow in Eastern mysticism, and this 571 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: is something I wasn't familiar with this previously either, though 572 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: I guess I might have seen some echoes of it 573 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: in various nineties television chefs. Yeah, I feel like this 574 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: link might be kind of tenuous, um, but I tried 575 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: to go dig deeper into this to figure out what's 576 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: going on here. So it seems to me that the 577 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: idea of the Brothers of Shadow is sort of an 578 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: appellation by Western occultists, like like say the Theosophus or 579 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: Madame Bolovatsky and all that sort of unfairly applied or 580 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: associated with a sect or suborder of Tibetan Buddhism known 581 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: as the dug Puzz or drug Puss, the drug lineage. 582 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,719 Speaker 1: Now I'll come back to that in a second. But 583 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: so I was thinking about the concept of paranormal agents 584 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: in black suits, and like, why why is that right 585 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: there in their name, The fact that they wear black suits. Um, 586 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: it's so interesting in what it reveals about about culture 587 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: and psychology and archetypes. Like the blacks and tie is 588 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: clearly a very meaningful part of the folklore architecture here. 589 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: It says something about power, says something about anonymity, it 590 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: says something about formality and professionalism and maybe some other qualities. 591 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: But the black suit more traditionally, I mean, now that's 592 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: this is very becoming very global, But it used to 593 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: be a more like Western kind of European and American 594 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: model of you know, how you demonstrate professionalism and culture, right, 595 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: and it was sort of spread to other areas as 596 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: a part of spreading Western culture. Yeah, And so I 597 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,239 Speaker 1: was wondering, Okay, what would men in black look like 598 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: at other times and in other cultures with different ideas 599 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: about the meanings of colored clothing and different types of clothing. 600 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: I was trying to imagine, Okay, if you have men 601 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: in black in Chinese UFO experiences, would they dressed the same, 602 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: would they wear black suits, or would they tend to 603 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: more often wear something different. So I tried to see 604 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: if I could find any men in black type reports 605 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: from for example, China, and I didn't really come up 606 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: with any thing. I was reading an article from in 607 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: the South China Morning Post about the UFO society of China. UH. 608 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: This article reported quote, over the past ten years, there 609 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 1: have been five thousand reports of UFOs in China, and 610 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: it told the story of a man who claimed to 611 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: have been abducted by an alien woman from Jupiter who 612 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: had sex with him during his absence from Earth, and 613 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: there were no men in black anywhere in these stories. Now, 614 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: there may be some type of analogous men in black 615 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: experiences in Chinese UFO encounters, but if if so, I 616 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,919 Speaker 1: couldn't come across any evidence of it. So that's interesting. Yeah. 617 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: I haven't done any any reading on really Chinese UFO accounts. 618 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: I've done a little bit on the like sasquatch cryptid 619 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 1: reporting in China, but not the UFOs. But that's interesting. Well, yeah, 620 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just interesting that clearly UFOs are a 621 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: somewhat global experience phenomena. UH. People claim to have had 622 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: these experiences in different parts of the world, but not 623 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: everybody's going to have the exact same. Like kind of 624 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: feeling is about men in black suits with ties, or 625 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: maybe they will, I don't know, maybe that's a more 626 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: universal kind of signifier at this point. Yeah, well, I mean, 627 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: I guess the the UFO theorist would argue that, of 628 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 1: course the men in black are gonna wear black suits 629 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: if suits are the standard of dress, and they're just 630 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: gonna they're gonna wear whatever is appropriate given the culture 631 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: at the time. But what would that be, I mean 632 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: that that would help help us get a better idea 633 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: of what the men in black exactly are supposed to represent. Well, well, 634 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: let's see if they landed in say Victorian England, what 635 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: would they have worn where they would be dressed up 636 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: like uh, like like the the the police. They definitely 637 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: wear bowler hats. They look like Scotland yard. Yeah, I guess. So, 638 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: you know, whatever the standard is, right Edwardian men in 639 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: black like that should be the sequel. That's what I 640 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: want to see. Well, I'm sorry, I got side tracked. 641 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: I want to come back to the idea of the 642 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 1: Brothers of Shadow. So I think that from what I 643 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: can tell, this is a term applied by like these 644 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: Western occultists, uh to a sect or suborder of Tibetan Buddhism, 645 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: as I was saying, called the dug Pas with the 646 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: drug push the drug pill lineage, and and I think 647 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: this association seems to be unfair, as they obviously do 648 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: not see themselves as like sorcerers or shadowy nefarious figures 649 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: like the Western occultists characterize them. Uh. Though for what 650 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 1: it's worth, older Western taxonomy is sometimes referred to the 651 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: monks of this order as red hats, and they do 652 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: dress in red robes and hats on some occasions, though 653 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: this is true of many orders of Tibetan Buddhist monks, 654 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,399 Speaker 1: not just the drug tradition. So obviously the cultural associations 655 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: are getting lost across history and translation here with this 656 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,959 Speaker 1: whole relation to the Brothers of Shadow. I don't think 657 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: this means that Tibetan experiences with UFOs and men in 658 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: Black wouldn't necessarily involve people dressing in red, though it 659 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,720 Speaker 1: doesn't make you have to consider this like what parts 660 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: of the men in Black belief are cote icture, are contingent, 661 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: and what parts would be universal. Alright, on that note, 662 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break, but when we 663 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: come back, we're going to discuss the men in Black 664 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: just a little bit more than thank Alright, we're back. 665 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: You know. Another comparison between the men in black experience 666 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 1: tradition and other types of paranormal experiences people tend to 667 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: have is experiences that are commonly associated with with sleep 668 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: related episodes. Yes, like the shadow people. Yeah, this is 669 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: a This is an interesting topic that I think I 670 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: discussed in a much older episode of Stuff to Blow 671 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: your Mind, but it seemed appropriate to bring it back 672 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: up here. Um, you know, basically, it all hinges on 673 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: a two thousand six study Swiss study that was published 674 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: in the journal Nature about a possible connection between various 675 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: shadow people um experiences and something actually going on inside 676 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,919 Speaker 1: the brain. Now, what exactly are these shadow people experiences? Like? 677 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: So basically it's the it's it's not so much a 678 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: full on men in black scenario, like I saw a 679 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 1: weird man in a black suit standing you know, you've 680 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: knocked on my door and we talked and he told 681 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: me not to tell anyone about flying saucers. Nothing like that. 682 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 1: But it's more of a u a symptom that's been 683 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: reported for a while by a psychiatric and neurological patients 684 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: where there is a feeling there's a sense of a 685 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 1: dark figure, say in the room with you like looming 686 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,959 Speaker 1: over your bed maybe or something. Uh, and in fact 687 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 1: that that's there in the men in black tradition. Some 688 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 1: some of these reports mentioned that like people who had 689 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: encounters with them, sometimes they'd be standing there over their bed. Yeah, 690 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: looming over your like a ring wraith. Right. Um. So 691 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: the researchers in the study then they made the discovery 692 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,919 Speaker 1: while evaluating a psychologically normal twenty two year old woman 693 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: for surgical treatment of epilepsy, and when they electrically stimulated 694 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,879 Speaker 1: her brains left temporo parietal junction or TPG day they 695 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: repeatedly gave she repeatedly had the sensation of a lurking 696 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: shadow in her presence, like a shadow man, and she 697 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: perceived this shadow person just behind her, interfering with her 698 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 1: attempts to read a book. And when the researchers stimulated 699 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: her in a seated position, she perceived herself to be 700 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: seated in the entities lap um quote. He was clasping 701 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,240 Speaker 1: her in his arms, which she described as an unpleasant feeling. 702 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: So essentially what seemed to have been taking places. She 703 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: was observing her own body the whole time, but as 704 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: the t PJ concerned self processing self, other distinction and 705 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: multisensory body integration info. The electrical stimulation caused her to 706 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: attribute her own actions to an alien other, and a 707 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: similar distortion maybe at work in various other uh you know, 708 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: psychiatric manifestations of alien entities, you know, anything that involves 709 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 1: here being a some other being in your room, being 710 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 1: an alien, a demon, a man in black, a spirit, 711 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: a fairy, etcetera. So the researchers proposed that electrical stimulation 712 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 1: of this area in the patient disturbed multisensory and and 713 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: uh sinso motor integration of information with respect to her body, 714 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: leading to the appearance of a first rank symptom of 715 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: schizophrenia in a person with no psychiatric history. And it's 716 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,280 Speaker 1: notable here that the hyperactivity in the temporo parietal cortex 717 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 1: of patients with schizophrenia may lead to the misattribution of 718 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: their own actions to other people. So we see, you know, 719 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: a related UM situation there. Well that seems like another 720 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a more clinical type of condition, 721 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,720 Speaker 1: but UM related to the milder version I've talked about earlier. 722 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,799 Speaker 1: How you know, there appears to be sometimes just contagion 723 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: between what's going on in one brain subsystem and another 724 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: brand subsystem that the actions that you see other people do. 725 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: Maybe you attribute your own thought to your imagination of 726 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: someone else's mind, you think they're thinking whatever you're thinking, 727 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 1: or you you you blur the lines between imagination and memory. Absolutely, 728 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: so I don't present this as as the answer for 729 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 1: shadow people. Experiences are certainly for Men in Black, because 730 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 1: there are various reasons that one might hallucinate Misremember we're 731 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,240 Speaker 1: engaging in any of these these situations we've discussed um. 732 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: Oliver Sacks in his book Hallucinations specifically calls out hypnopompic hallucinations, 733 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,240 Speaker 1: the hallucinations that we have coming out of sleep. Um. 734 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 1: He describes these as a source of malevolent entity perception. 735 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 1: So you know, it could certainly be one of the 736 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: reasons at play. But then again, to go back to 737 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: what we were talking about earlier, something like men and Black, 738 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: it's not just people having having an experience and then 739 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: reporting it. It's also other people interpreting bits of that 740 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: experience and other people yating things, creating fantasy and sci fi, etcetera. 741 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 1: That gets up becoming a part of other people's hallucinations 742 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: and other people's interpretation of hallucinations, so you know, it's 743 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,840 Speaker 1: it's not happening in a vacuum. Yeah. Interesting. I was 744 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: reading an article, uh from because so I was wondering, Okay, 745 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: do men in black encounters still really happen? Yeah? You 746 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: read about them from the twentieth century, from the nineteen 747 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 1: fifties and sixties and on through the eighties and nineties, 748 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,720 Speaker 1: and I was like, I haven't really encountered a claim 749 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 1: of the men in black encounter or experience that that 750 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: happened in recent decades. What's going on there? So I 751 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: looked this up and I did find an article. I 752 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: found an article in Slate by Aesha Harris FROMLVE about 753 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,960 Speaker 1: whether men in Black sidings still happen because most of 754 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 1: the stories you run into tend to be older. And 755 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 1: so the author in this article asked you fologist Jerome Clark, 756 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: who has mentioned in Royce Wooz article whether people still 757 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,320 Speaker 1: report men in black encounters these days. Apparently the reports 758 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,959 Speaker 1: have quote tapered off significantly in the fifteen years since 759 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: the original Men in Black movie was released. Um, but 760 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 1: Clark consists he does not think that the film had 761 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 1: anything to do with that. Instead, he attributes it to 762 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: a lack of investigation into the issue in recent years, 763 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 1: especially since the passing of the ufologist John A. Keel, 764 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 1: who apparently cataloged a lot of these experiences. Uh, did 765 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,720 Speaker 1: a lot of this kind of research made by research 766 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: and investigation. We're talking about continually writing about it and 767 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:41,000 Speaker 1: keeping the idea alive in UFO enthusiast communities and publications. 768 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 1: But I think also, like, you know, collecting other people's experiences. Yeah, 769 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: um so. On the other hand, the British upologist Nick 770 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: Redfern insists that Men in Black encounters do still happen, 771 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: as chronicled in his book The Real Men in Black 772 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,319 Speaker 1: in two thousand eleven. I don't know if that's trying 773 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: to cash in on a movie tie in, but personally, 774 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: I would say, despite what Clark says, I would tend 775 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: to wonder if the movie Men in Black does have 776 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,240 Speaker 1: something to do with the decline in Men in Black reports. 777 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 1: I think this could be sort of inverse to what 778 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 1: often happens where UFO sightings seem correlated with like Flying 779 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: Saucer science fiction, and elements of these alien encounters sometimes 780 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: seem to correlate with elements that show up in fiction. 781 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: Over time, And I wonder if this inverse correlation, if 782 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: if it is actually there, I mean, I don't know, 783 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 1: but I wonder if this inverse correlation is there, if 784 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: it might have to do with the fact that the 785 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 1: men in Black movies are comedies like that they make 786 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 1: the idea funny and more and more so than that, 787 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: because certainly we've have funny UFO and funny alien movies 788 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: that have come out over the years. Certainly it wasn't 789 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 1: a case where um Earth girls are easy killed off 790 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: the idea of alien abductions. But you still have a mix, right, 791 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: You have serious films and scary films and films that 792 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,840 Speaker 1: clearly are made by people who want to believe. Whereas 793 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 1: the men in Black films are really outside of those 794 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: other those earlier men and Black films that I mentioned 795 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: in the X Files episode, it's in various sprinklings of 796 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: men in Black lore and other UH pictures and shows. 797 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 1: I can't think of anything that's really served as a 798 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,319 Speaker 1: counterbalance to the men in Black comedy movies, you know, 799 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,840 Speaker 1: like if we had just had one like deadly serious 800 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,080 Speaker 1: Fire in the Sky esque men in Black film like 801 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 1: like that would have done a lot, perhaps to keep 802 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,319 Speaker 1: it going. Boy, what about the Eric Roberts movie, Well 803 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 1: that was what though? Yeah, yeah, so it came out 804 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:42,719 Speaker 1: out of the wrong time, so you might have had 805 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 1: balance initially, But then what happened when Men in Black 806 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: two came out and three or the in the upcoming one. 807 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:49,880 Speaker 1: I think the next one is the fourth one. I 808 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,399 Speaker 1: could be wrong, but really there's the whole I think 809 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,840 Speaker 1: I'm asking you for the second time in this episode. 810 00:45:55,719 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 1: They're on there at least four, so I only saw 811 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,319 Speaker 1: the first one of the movies. But I remember being 812 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,359 Speaker 1: gross in that way, like especially late nineties movies were 813 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 1: gross where there was a time of h like c 814 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 1: G I snot and slime, a lot of mucus. Am 815 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:17,920 Speaker 1: I wrong? Now? There was a There was a lot 816 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 1: of gross stuff in it because there was the villain 817 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,320 Speaker 1: was it was a roach like essentially a large roach 818 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,640 Speaker 1: in a human costume, like wearing a human skin, and 819 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 1: there were a lot of gross side gags involving that character. 820 00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:33,799 Speaker 1: Did I send you a link? I think I did 821 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,399 Speaker 1: send you a link to where I found the Men 822 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 1: in Black feature film novelization. Oh yeah, well, I guess 823 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 1: there would have been one of those, given the timeframe 824 00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 1: and and the you know, the scale of the film. Man, 825 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,319 Speaker 1: that's got to be like the ultimate movie novelization. You 826 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,399 Speaker 1: would not have imagined it could happen, and yet it did. 827 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 1: You know. I would love to hear from anyone out there. 828 00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,919 Speaker 1: First of all, if you've seen any of these other 829 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 1: are Men in Black film, not I mean not the 830 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,920 Speaker 1: comedy sequels, but like the film or the the the 831 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,759 Speaker 1: earlier film, and you have any insight on them. I'd 832 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 1: also love to hear from anybody who read the original 833 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: comic books, like what were they? Like, are the fans? 834 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: Are there are there fans of the original Men in 835 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 1: Black comics? And if they are, do they how do 836 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,440 Speaker 1: they feel about the films? I'm always interested in the 837 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:25,040 Speaker 1: you know, how a particular franchise evolves like that. For 838 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: that matter, if anyone out there has had experiences with 839 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,440 Speaker 1: you know, with Men in Black or UFOs, you know, 840 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,480 Speaker 1: we would we would love to hear from you. You know, 841 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,800 Speaker 1: we promise that if you be right in with your accounts, 842 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,399 Speaker 1: we will not uh make fun of you. We will 843 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,279 Speaker 1: you know, skeptically uh and enthusiastically approach it as we 844 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,960 Speaker 1: always do. Yeah, all right, well that's it for this episode. 845 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:46,720 Speaker 1: If you want to check out other episodes of Stuff 846 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,359 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, some of the various other, uh 847 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,279 Speaker 1: sort of paranormal episodes that we've recorded over the years, 848 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,000 Speaker 1: you can find them. It's Stuff to Blow your Mind 849 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 1: dot com. That's the mothership. That's where we find them all. 850 00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,760 Speaker 1: That's where we find links out to various social media accounts. 851 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,480 Speaker 1: That's where we'll find a tab for our door where 852 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,840 Speaker 1: you can buy shirts and stickers and other things with 853 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,600 Speaker 1: our logo on it, with various episodes specific designs on them. 854 00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:10,399 Speaker 1: You can get those, you can wear them, you can 855 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,360 Speaker 1: deface public property with them. Um, it's all available to you. 856 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,080 Speaker 1: Another great way to support the show, however, it is 857 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: just rate and review us wherever you have the power 858 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,759 Speaker 1: to do so. You don't have to, you know, piss 859 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,240 Speaker 1: off the authority figures. Just go and rate and review 860 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,040 Speaker 1: us wherever you get this podcast. It helps us out 861 00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 1: tremendously huge things. As always to our excellent audio producers 862 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,239 Speaker 1: Alex Williams and Tarry Harrison. If you would like to 863 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,400 Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode 864 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 865 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,120 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at blow 866 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:52,960 Speaker 1: the Mind at how stuff works dot com for more 867 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,279 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Does it how 868 00:48:55,320 --> 00:49:22,239 Speaker 1: stuff works dot Com? Yeah, cuttle Cat's cuttlefish to the 869 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,760 Speaker 1: second oil age and he's kingdom with burl of darkness. 870 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,919 Speaker 1: I don't dispute the Eurostata, but if he's down here, 871 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,920 Speaker 1: we've know not blood but darkness, the Earth's black riches. 872 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:43,200 Speaker 1: No I could taste it on my lips. Today, I 873 00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,960 Speaker 1: want to talk to you about the science of transgenesis 874 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,560 Speaker 1: TAM's Genesis Dotch Show,