WEBVTT - Silicon Valley's Revolt Against Trump's Travel Ban 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.840 Don't let your legacy i T systems cost you money, innovation, 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:06.320 and a place at the digital table of the future. 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:09.280 You can change your systems and the economics of it 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:13.720 with software from red hat. See how at red hat 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:20.840 dot com. On Friday January, on his eighth day in office, 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.920 President Donald Trump signed an executive order at the Pentagon. 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:28.960 The content of the action was rumored for days, but 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:31.200 no one quite knew what the order was going to 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:35.280 mean on a practical level. Secondly, I'm establishing new vetting 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:42.839 measures to keep radical Islamic terrorists out of the United 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:47.080 States of America. We don't want them here. We want 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:50.080 to ensure that we are not admitting into our country. 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:55.640 The very threats are soldiers are fighting overseas. We only 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:59.000 want to admit those into it. In l A. Hussein Kasai, 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:02.480 the c EO and co founder of a mid sized 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.920 technology startup called on Fight Oh, was at his family's 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:08.679 home when the news broke. He didn't really think much 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:11.720 of it at first. There's been a few executive orders 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.400 that actually don't mean anything in terms of legally being enforceable. 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:16.679 They don't mean much. So my first reaction was this 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:19.199 is another one, and that this this, it just seems 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:21.600 I'm not a lawyer, but it seems a pretty common 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:25.280 sense that it just seems mostly like I can't see 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.040 how legally this could be enforced. Um, so you got 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:30.880 real for me when when I saw the protests at 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:42.840 that airports, including JFK say and the reports that that 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:45.800 didn't individuals have now been either detained or asked to 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:48.440 go back. And after I had just calls from the 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:52.400 messages from lawyers or others offering support and saying don't 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.320 sign this, and so on if if you're traveling. Trump's 0:01:56.400 --> 0:02:00.600 order halted citizens of seven majority Muslim countries from coming 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:06.520 into the US that's Syria, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.520 and Yemen, and included people with valid US work visas 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:15.400 and initially Green cards too. Hussein doesn't simply disagree with 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.320 the band. It affects him and his family directly. His 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.639 father is Iranian. Hussein himself spent ten years of his 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.160 childhood in Iran, and he's a British Iranian dual citizen. 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.000 Hussein is also a Green card holder, which means he's 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.640 a legal resident, but he's nervous that because of his 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:36.720 Iranian citizenship. His status here in the US might not 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:39.880 be as secure as he wants thought, and that means 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:41.800 it's going to get a lot harder for him to 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.920 run his business. A major part of the reasons why 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.520 myself and others moved to places like the US or 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:52.080 Europe is is because it's different. Because you know, there's 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.960 the rule of law, there's justice, as freedom is democracy 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:59.720 and all these things. Um So this is particularly surprising 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:01.919 for us because we know what's what the other way 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:07.000 is like, and hence it's not normal. It's dangerous. This 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:10.280 is the starting points of very dangerous road to go down. 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:20.080 Hi am Aki Ito, and I'm Olivia Zeleski, and this 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:24.200 week on Decrypted, we're discussing Trump's executive order and what 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:27.440 it means for the tech industry across the country. Over 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:29.880 the last week and a half, we've been hearing stories 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.400 like Hussain's. We've heard them especially loud and clear here 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.400 within the tech community, which relies heavily on the brains 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:40.120 and the labor of skilled foreign immigrants. For weeks since 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.240 Trump won the election, tech executives have been trying to 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:47.320 make nice with him. But after this executive order, Silicon 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:50.920 Valley is in full revolt. We'll see what this could 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:53.800 mean for the tech industry going forward, as we hear 0:03:53.840 --> 0:04:01.400 reports of even broader restrictions on foreign workers. Over the 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.600 last weekend a half, the details have been changing quite 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:06.640 a bit, so we're going to recap what we know 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.040 for now. For one, anyone who was born in or 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.080 as a citizen of the seven Muslim majority countries has 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:16.760 been stopped from entering the US for ninety days. It 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.159 means that people who are in the US when the 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:23.680 order was issued cannot travel internationally, otherwise they might not 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.640 be able to come back in now. The order never 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.920 applied to U s citizens, And as for Green card holders, 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:33.880 they were getting detained at first, but then Homeland Security 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.080 Secretary John Kelly came out and said Green card holders 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:40.000 will be allowed in unless there's reason to believe they 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.320 pose a threat to national security. And the situation has 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:47.160 been changing fast. There's been a storm of legal challenges, 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:51.080 and on Friday, February third, a federal judge ordered a 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:55.799 nationwide temporary block to the travel ban. As a result, 0:04:55.960 --> 0:05:00.120 over this past weekend, border officials stopped enforcing the execut 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:03.920 of order, and the State Department has reversed its cancelation 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:06.960 of what's said to be tens of thousands of visas 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:11.799 for people from these seven countries. But Trump isn't backing down. 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.719 Immediately after the federal judge ordered the suspension of the ban, 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.400 the administration asked a federal appeals court to reinstate it, 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:21.600 and the President has put out a couple of tweets. 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:25.400 One said, quote the opinion of this so called judge, 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:28.920 which essentially takes law enforcement away from our country, is 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:33.720 ridiculous and will be overturned. Another tweet from Trump said, 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:36.719 when a country is no longer able to say who 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.560 can and who cannot come in and out, especially for 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:43.960 reasons of safety and security, big trouble. As of taping 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:47.000 this on Monday, February six, we're still waiting to hear 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.800 a final decision from the appeals court. Whichever side loses 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:57.760 could even bring this to the Supreme Court. This all 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.239 means that Hussein, the CEO of the startup on Fido, 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.400 is in limbo. On Fido is based in the UK, 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.200 but Hussain spends most of his time here in the US, 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.800 which has become his company's largest and fastest growing market. 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.040 He spends about three to four weeks here in the 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:18.560 US for every week he spends in the UK, and 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:22.720 perhaps ironically in this contacts and Fido verifies people's identities 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.760 and runs background checks. The entire company is now just 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.520 shy of a hundred and fifty people, with eleven in 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:34.840 the rapidly growing US office, and and any company growing 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.400 tech in particular, co founders play a pretty important role, 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:43.400 anything from from enterprise client sales, to recruitment, to infrastructure 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.800 work to just whiteboard sessions with the team on the 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:47.960 product side and on the talent side, in the whole 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.760 range of areas. It is why it's important to be 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:55.640 mobile now. Hussain says he's fortunate that even if he's 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.040 forced to leave his life in California, he could still 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:02.200 return to the UK. A he says it startups US 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.640 business has grown enough that it could still run without 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:09.200 him being physically there. Eighteen months ago, we may most 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:12.160 definitely what have had to think of alternative plans We 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:14.680 are now just because we're constantly looking to recruit and 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.320 constantly looking to grow um. But we're probably at the 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:19.760 stage where it's it's if I spend less time, it's 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:21.280 not going to be as damaging as it would have 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.520 been eighteen months ago, but that's not true for all 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:27.080 startup founders. The night before Trump signed the executive order, 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:31.840 another Iranian entrepreneur, Sasha Islami, was boarding a flight to Argentina. 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:35.280 He was planning to spend two months they're recruiting for 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.960 his fledgling photo sharing app called ever Snap. He spoke 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:42.720 to our reporter Shelley Haggen about it. I arrived to 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:48.040 Bueno Sirius eleven PM the day after Buenasirius time. All 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.320 of a sudden, it starts getting messages from one of 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.400 my friends in the US and he's telling me about 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.200 what Trump has done. And at first I thought, Okay, 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.680 well this is really bad, but it shouldn't affect me 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:04.360 because I'm a Green card holder, UM permanent resident. Then 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:08.120 if one hour later he sent me an article about 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:12.760 how it's been confirmed that also permanent residents are also banned. 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.640 So um, then all of a sudden, things, you know, 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.720 it gets pretty scary because I have all my all 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:24.160 my business in the US. I have a gigantic house 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:26.960 in San Jose that I have all my stuff there. 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:29.600 You know, I I go to meetings all the time, 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.000 right with business partners, with investors, with founders when I'm 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:37.200 in the US, and it's something that my business relies 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:40.160 on me being able to be there and most of 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:43.600 the time. For now, Sasha's hope is that by the 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:47.200 time he's done with this two months recruiting in Argentina, 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:51.320 any ambiguity will be resolved, at least for Green card 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.600 holders like him. Nobody knows how it's going to play 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:58.800 out within the next couple of weeks. Right um, every 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:02.560 day we're getting some sort of new information, right and 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:06.160 it isn't even the administration himself. They're not clear on 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:09.679 what it entails. So my plan is to just, you know, 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:14.000 wait a week or two, see how everything unfolds, right, 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:20.319 and then take a take an education educated decision after that. 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:25.079 And then there's another couple we spoke with, the husbands 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:27.520 and engineer at one of the biggest tech companies here 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.640 in Silicon Valley, and he's been in the US for 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.800 nine years. His wife is a medical researcher at a 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.560 large university in California and she's been here for seventeen years. 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:40.040 They're both from Iran, and they've asked us not to 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:44.040 use their names or their employers names because unlike Hussain 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.800 and Sasha, they don't have the security of a U 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:51.800 screen card. Their applications pending, and now they're worried it's 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.600 never going to come through. I mean, the unstability, the unpredictability, 0:09:55.760 --> 0:10:00.559 is just unbelievable. We had plans, we had I mean, 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.480 I'm a kind of a math type, so I would 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:07.440 just like look at the investments and figure out what's 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.520 the right amounts to do in the four one K 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:12.200 and what's the right balance of the funds and all 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.360 that stuff, figuring out based on what when we want 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:17.680 to retire, based on then we want to buy a house, 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:20.280 and you start planning for thirty or forty years in 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:23.520 the future in some way, right, And those plans were 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:27.600 here in the United yes, And then suddenly now we're 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:31.360 thinking about plans for tomorrow, next week, next month, trying 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.880 to predict what could happen if that happens. What can 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.440 I do? How can I move fast? How can I 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:42.000 be very dynamic to handle various different scenarios. It becomes 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:45.719 from a stable life with the future. In one day 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:49.760 or two it changes into a survival mode life in 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.720 a way that I know nothing about my future. I 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:55.120 don't know if I if I'm gonna be able to 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:58.240 legally work or stay at my home. I don't know 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:00.200 where in the world and I can go because as 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.280 I can't go back to your own for various reasons, 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:06.800 including that time, I'm not a Muslim and I'm atheist. 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:09.480 What would happen if you went backed her in and 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:13.959 the so To be honest, I'm not sure. They may 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.080 not care that much, or they may care a lot. 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.400 A lot of it is kind of arbitrary, which I'm 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.600 kind of worrying may happen here too. Arbitrary stuff. If 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:26.720 they don't like you for some reason, they're gonna dig 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:30.640 up everything on you and then attach that level to 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:33.679 you and then take your life away in various ways. 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:39.640 Coming up, we take a look at how the tech 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.640 industry has reacted to the executive order that's right after 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:53.240 these words from our sponsor. Inside the most successful organizations, 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.560 I T has gone from supporting the business to driving 0:11:56.559 --> 0:12:00.280 the business. But the costs of legacy infrastructure can heed 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:04.439 this progress. Budgets can't stretch enough to pay for digital 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:08.120 innovation at the speed required. No one gets a blank check. 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:10.920 The answer is to change the economics of your I 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:16.360 T by shifting from ownership to use, from licenses to subscriptions, 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:20.800 from proprietary to open, change the economics of it with 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.680 open software from red hat. Learn more at red hat 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:36.920 dot com. So far, we've heard from Hussein, Sasha and 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.120 the couple who were not naming today. They're all directly 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.240 affected by the travel ban, and I think you can 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:46.120 really hear the uncertainty and the devastation in each of 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.360 their voices. You Know, what's been really striking to me 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.920 is how swift the response was from the tech community, 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.240 just how vociferous it was, at least at the beginning. 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.600 We didn't hear a whole lot from other industries. And 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.280 this was after months of careful steps that the tech 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:06.200 industry was taking to reconcile the Trump Tesla CEO Elon 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:10.079 Musk and Uber CEO Travis Kalenik both agreed to join 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.200 the President's Advisory Board and a host of tech leaders 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:15.800 they went to Trump Tower to meet the then president 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:19.559 elect during the transition. But after the travel band, top 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.760 tech leaders like Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg has spoken out. 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:27.280 He wrote a very personal post about his wife's parents 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.240 that they were refugees from Vietnam and China. It was 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:33.240 on the very day that the order was signed. Google 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:37.800 CEO Sundar Pichai sent out an internal memo talking about 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:41.119 the more than one hundred employees who have been affected 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.120 by the actions, and he said that it's painful to 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:48.760 see the personal cost of Trump's actions. And Uber's Kalenik, 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:53.000 who joined Trump's Advisory Council, he announced on Thursday that 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.240 he was stepping down from the committee. In Seattle, Amazon 0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:00.720 and Expedia file declarations that support Washington States pawsuit against 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.400 the executive order. Do you telling how the travel bands 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:07.400 hurt their businesses? This was the very lawsuit that led 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:11.320 to the nationwide temporary suspension of the travel restrictions. And 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.839 in New York, an industry group called Tech NYC came 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.200 out with a public letter to Trump opposing the executive order, 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.680 and it was signed by some of the biggest names 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.000 in the New York tech scene. I spoke to their 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:28.280 executive director, Julie Samuels. Many of the leaders in our 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:32.320 tech community here in New York City felt that they 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.520 wanted to do something, and you know, in these instances, 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:37.920 it's kind of hard to know what to do. We're 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.000 here in New York, We're not in d C. These 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.160 executive orders had been signed already, so we took the 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.480 opportunity to put together a letter once you can see 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.640 um at on our website, which is tech NYC dot org. 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:54.320 Within twelve hours, we had over four hundred signatures um all. 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:58.240 This took place on a Sunday afternoon, which is also notable. 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:10.200 Um people were coming out of the woodwork. So this 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.880 gets us to the question of why immigration. Why was 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:17.840 it this the travel restrictions that provoked such an outcry 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:21.720 from the tech industry. Well, for one, entrepreneurs are at 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:24.920 the core of the tech industry. These tiny startups are 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.320 often the ones coming out with the crazy next new 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:31.240 things that end up taking off. Between two thousand seven 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:35.680 and nearly of new businesses in California were started by 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:40.880 people born outside the US. Our reporter Shelley discussed this 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:45.120 in more details with David Mendel's, the CEO of bright Cove. 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:50.480 There're a midsize online video software company in Boston. You know, 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.400 I think you have to keep in mind that most 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.600 of the tech community is in places like Massachusetts where 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:01.520 we are uh Silicon Valley in California, New Yorkity, the Washington, 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:05.360 d C. Metropolitan area, and these are people that live 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:10.640 in incredibly diverse communities. UM for us, the idea of 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:15.960 working with a Muslim individual of Iranian descent is not 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:18.920 an abstract idea. That's something I do every day. I 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.720 think everybody here knows people who are being targeted or 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:24.680 feel like they're being targeted by this, and so I 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.840 think you really have no choice if you want to 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.160 be true to the people around you but to feel 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:35.360 strongly about this. So that's one point that these are 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.920 your friends and your coworkers and your neighbors. A related 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.640 point is that given how difficult it is for companies 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.800 to find good coders, tech companies don't want to lose 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.360 any of them. Google alone said there are over a 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:51.480 hundred employees affected by the band. Yeah, I actually didn't 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:54.440 know this until we started reporting for this podcast, but 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:57.880 there's a big community of Iranian engineers here in the 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:01.280 valley and industry executives. You're also worried that it's going 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.600 to hurt their ability to do business around the world. 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.719 Here's David again. Well, I think there's all kinds of 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:09.439 things that could happen in the future, and there's all 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:11.680 kinds of spin on effects. So how's the rest of 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:15.520 the world going to react to America that is closing 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:19.720 its borders, not just with immigration issues and refugee issues, 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:23.359 but also all of the talk about tariffs. Um, that's 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:28.560 a problem for me. Our business is approximately outside the 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.879 United States. For an exporter, it is not in my 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:36.240 interest for us to put up walls metaphorical ones in 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.560 this case that make it harder for people to do 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:41.879 business with countries and the United companies in the United States, 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.439 because I think what we'll see its retaliation. You know, 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:47.520 it's hard to predict where things are going to go 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:51.480 from here. But our colleagues in Asia, Peter Eelstrom and 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:55.640 Serretha Ry, obtain a draft of a new executive order 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:59.679 that the Trump administration is considering, and that draft proposes 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.960 to get harder for all foreigners to get a work 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:07.000 visa here. The draft, which we should say has not 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:09.960 come into effect for now, it's just a draft that's 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:15.120 being passed around, says the changes would prioritize and protect quote, 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:19.920 American workers are forgotten working people and the jobs they hold. 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:22.840 And we'll note here that over the years there have 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:26.280 been some reports that some companies maybe abusing the H 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.480 one B work visa program that they hire foreign workers 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:31.520 so that they can pay them lower wages than they 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.280 would otherwise pay their American workers. But tech and Yes 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.200 Julie says that when smart, skilled foreigners come to work 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:42.359 in the US, Americans end up benefiting too. It is 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:46.160 incredibly important that we have open immigration policies that attract 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.920 the best, the brightest from other countries here to build 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.520 businesses here, to create jobs here. That's incredibly real. The 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:56.920 list of big companies that were founded are co founded 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.520 by an immigrant um is an incredible list. It includes 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.000 Tesla and includes Facebook. It includes some really big companies. 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:07.320 Research shows that net new job growth in the United 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.480 States comes from new firms. So while of course the 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:15.520 majority of startups fail, the ones that grow are the 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.240 ones that create all the new jobs. So we want 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:20.240 people here growing those companies. Oh, Google, I left Google 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:22.320 off the list. Think about how many new jobs Google 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:26.879 has created in the last decade. Hussaying, the CEO of 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:30.600 a Fido who he heard from earlier, is another example 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:34.280 of this. He's created eleven jobs here in the US 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.000 through his startup, and he's looking to hire more people, 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.080 and many of the tech workers affected by this measure 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:44.160 don't think they'll be replaced by American workers. The Iranian engineer, 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:46.879 whose wife is a medical researcher, Well, he said his 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:50.120 employer has already offered to move them to another international 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:54.320 office if that becomes necessary. The thing is that it's 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:57.880 not like a job that if if I leave, it's 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:00.320 it's sitting there and somebody get it. I have the 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.439 job because of the particular skill sets that I have. 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:06.239 If I move, they move with me. It's it's not 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:08.639 that there's a hole and there's an opening that if 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.040 I'm not there, somebody else can feel it. It's it's 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.679 not that we are taking somebody's jobs. It's you have 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:15.879 those jobs a lot of people like us. The job 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:20.080 kind of gets created for the person you want, this 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:22.520 kind of person, and you figure out how to use 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:26.080 them to push forward your goals and your company or 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:31.120 your side, or your university or something like that. So, 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:35.040 as you said, it's not like the there's a there's 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:38.080 a whole whole ful field on Fidos who say also 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:40.639 told his two Randian employees that will move them to 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:42.959 the UK if it comes to that. Yeah, it's not 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.040 like he's going to fire them and hire two Americans 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:48.600 in their place. Well, for now, we'll leave you on 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:55.200 this note. Since the executive order was officially signed on Friday, 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:59.720 have you both discussed potentially leaving the United States, maybe 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:04.800 going to Canada, maybe going to Europe. UM. I think 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:10.480 we are thinking about um, looking at every everywhere that 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:13.359 we can potentially go. This was the first thing that 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:18.040 came to our mind that what if this continues? This 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:22.479 is not just the one time. Yeah, there is no 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.560 one in this world who can ever decide where they 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:28.080 where they want to be born. No one has ever 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:32.960 been able to decide that you're born somewhere. And the 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:41.520 hope was that there is this place on Earth, UM, 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:46.720 a particular country on then a North American continent that 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:52.480 didn't discriminate based on where you were born. Right to us, 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.840 I think America is more than a just country with 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:59.320 certain borders. It's an idea and I felt that that 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:17.720 idea is shattering that we've been searching for equality right 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:21.720 in I. I grew up in a kind of a 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:26.959 lower middle class family in Iran. I grew up my 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:31.400 family was not connected in any ways to the power powers. 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:37.959 I was always a second class citizen back home in 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:41.280 so many ways, by not believing, by not being connected, 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:47.800 by not being rich. And this was a country where 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:54.280 we thought those things wouldn't matter. We thought, and and 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:57.679 beside everywhere, weside in the movies, beside in the media, 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:00.720 beside in the laws, reside in the corn institution, we 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:04.040 saw it in the movements. I mean the civil rights movement, 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:09.000 the feminism movement. I mean I said, Okay, this is 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:12.320 the country where people are fought for those values and 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:15.199 they've achieved them, and we can go there and have 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:42.679 it and be there with these amazing people. That's it 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:45.959 for this week's Decrypted. Thanks for listening. Well tell us 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:48.280 what you thought of this episode. Send a voice message 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:51.199 to our producer Pia at p g A d k 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:55.320 A r I at Bloomberg dot net, or write to 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:58.440 me on Twitter. I'm at Olivia's Leski and I'm at 0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:02.080 Akio seven. You can subscribe to Decrypt it on iTunes 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:04.200 or wherever you get your podcast, and leave us a 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:06.280 rating in a review. This helps us make our show 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:09.000 better and it also gets our podcast in front of 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:12.760 more listeners. This episode was produced by Pierre get Cary 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:17.000 Magnus Hendrickson and Liz Smith. Shelley Hagen and Sarah Friar 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:20.040 helped with additional reporting. We'd like to say a special 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:24.760 thanks to Shoubert Shawberry, who runs the Persian Tech Entrepreneurs Network. 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:27.840 He connected us with a variety of startups for today's show. 0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:31.719 Alec McCabe is head of Bloomberg Podcasts. We'll see you 0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:44.800 next week. Don't let your legacy I T systems cost 0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:47.760 you money, innovation, and a place at the digital table 0:24:47.840 --> 0:24:50.600 of the future. You can change your systems and the 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:54.760 economics of it with software from red Hat. See how 0:24:54.960 --> 0:24:57.320 at red hat dot com.