1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Don't let your legacy i T systems cost you money, innovation, 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: and a place at the digital table of the future. 3 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: You can change your systems and the economics of it 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: with software from red hat. See how at red hat 5 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: dot com. On Friday January, on his eighth day in office, 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: President Donald Trump signed an executive order at the Pentagon. 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: The content of the action was rumored for days, but 8 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: no one quite knew what the order was going to 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: mean on a practical level. Secondly, I'm establishing new vetting 10 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: measures to keep radical Islamic terrorists out of the United 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: States of America. We don't want them here. We want 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: to ensure that we are not admitting into our country. 13 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: The very threats are soldiers are fighting overseas. We only 14 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: want to admit those into it. In l A. Hussein Kasai, 15 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: the c EO and co founder of a mid sized 16 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: technology startup called on Fight Oh, was at his family's 17 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: home when the news broke. He didn't really think much 18 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: of it at first. There's been a few executive orders 19 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: that actually don't mean anything in terms of legally being enforceable. 20 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: They don't mean much. So my first reaction was this 21 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,199 Speaker 1: is another one, and that this this, it just seems 22 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: I'm not a lawyer, but it seems a pretty common 23 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: sense that it just seems mostly like I can't see 24 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: how legally this could be enforced. Um, so you got 25 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: real for me when when I saw the protests at 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: that airports, including JFK say and the reports that that 27 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: didn't individuals have now been either detained or asked to 28 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: go back. And after I had just calls from the 29 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: messages from lawyers or others offering support and saying don't 30 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: sign this, and so on if if you're traveling. Trump's 31 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: order halted citizens of seven majority Muslim countries from coming 32 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: into the US that's Syria, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, 33 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: and Yemen, and included people with valid US work visas 34 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: and initially Green cards too. Hussein doesn't simply disagree with 35 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: the band. It affects him and his family directly. His 36 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: father is Iranian. Hussein himself spent ten years of his 37 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: childhood in Iran, and he's a British Iranian dual citizen. 38 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: Hussein is also a Green card holder, which means he's 39 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: a legal resident, but he's nervous that because of his 40 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: Iranian citizenship. His status here in the US might not 41 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: be as secure as he wants thought, and that means 42 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: it's going to get a lot harder for him to 43 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: run his business. A major part of the reasons why 44 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: myself and others moved to places like the US or 45 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: Europe is is because it's different. Because you know, there's 46 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: the rule of law, there's justice, as freedom is democracy 47 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: and all these things. Um So this is particularly surprising 48 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: for us because we know what's what the other way 49 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: is like, and hence it's not normal. It's dangerous. This 50 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: is the starting points of very dangerous road to go down. 51 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: Hi am Aki Ito, and I'm Olivia Zeleski, and this 52 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: week on Decrypted, we're discussing Trump's executive order and what 53 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: it means for the tech industry across the country. Over 54 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: the last week and a half, we've been hearing stories 55 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: like Hussain's. We've heard them especially loud and clear here 56 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: within the tech community, which relies heavily on the brains 57 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: and the labor of skilled foreign immigrants. For weeks since 58 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: Trump won the election, tech executives have been trying to 59 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: make nice with him. But after this executive order, Silicon 60 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: Valley is in full revolt. We'll see what this could 61 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: mean for the tech industry going forward, as we hear 62 00:03:53,840 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: reports of even broader restrictions on foreign workers. Over the 63 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: last weekend a half, the details have been changing quite 64 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: a bit, so we're going to recap what we know 65 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: for now. For one, anyone who was born in or 66 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: as a citizen of the seven Muslim majority countries has 67 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: been stopped from entering the US for ninety days. It 68 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: means that people who are in the US when the 69 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: order was issued cannot travel internationally, otherwise they might not 70 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: be able to come back in now. The order never 71 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: applied to U s citizens, And as for Green card holders, 72 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: they were getting detained at first, but then Homeland Security 73 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: Secretary John Kelly came out and said Green card holders 74 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: will be allowed in unless there's reason to believe they 75 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: pose a threat to national security. And the situation has 76 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: been changing fast. There's been a storm of legal challenges, 77 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: and on Friday, February third, a federal judge ordered a 78 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 1: nationwide temporary block to the travel ban. As a result, 79 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: over this past weekend, border officials stopped enforcing the execut 80 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: of order, and the State Department has reversed its cancelation 81 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: of what's said to be tens of thousands of visas 82 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,799 Speaker 1: for people from these seven countries. But Trump isn't backing down. 83 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: Immediately after the federal judge ordered the suspension of the ban, 84 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: the administration asked a federal appeals court to reinstate it, 85 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: and the President has put out a couple of tweets. 86 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: One said, quote the opinion of this so called judge, 87 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: which essentially takes law enforcement away from our country, is 88 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: ridiculous and will be overturned. Another tweet from Trump said, 89 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: when a country is no longer able to say who 90 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: can and who cannot come in and out, especially for 91 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: reasons of safety and security, big trouble. As of taping 92 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: this on Monday, February six, we're still waiting to hear 93 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: a final decision from the appeals court. Whichever side loses 94 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: could even bring this to the Supreme Court. This all 95 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,239 Speaker 1: means that Hussein, the CEO of the startup on Fido, 96 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: is in limbo. On Fido is based in the UK, 97 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: but Hussain spends most of his time here in the US, 98 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: which has become his company's largest and fastest growing market. 99 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: He spends about three to four weeks here in the 100 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: US for every week he spends in the UK, and 101 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: perhaps ironically in this contacts and Fido verifies people's identities 102 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: and runs background checks. The entire company is now just 103 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: shy of a hundred and fifty people, with eleven in 104 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: the rapidly growing US office, and and any company growing 105 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: tech in particular, co founders play a pretty important role, 106 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: anything from from enterprise client sales, to recruitment, to infrastructure 107 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: work to just whiteboard sessions with the team on the 108 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: product side and on the talent side, in the whole 109 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: range of areas. It is why it's important to be 110 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: mobile now. Hussain says he's fortunate that even if he's 111 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: forced to leave his life in California, he could still 112 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: return to the UK. A he says it startups US 113 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: business has grown enough that it could still run without 114 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: him being physically there. Eighteen months ago, we may most 115 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: definitely what have had to think of alternative plans We 116 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: are now just because we're constantly looking to recruit and 117 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: constantly looking to grow um. But we're probably at the 118 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: stage where it's it's if I spend less time, it's 119 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: not going to be as damaging as it would have 120 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: been eighteen months ago, but that's not true for all 121 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: startup founders. The night before Trump signed the executive order, 122 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: another Iranian entrepreneur, Sasha Islami, was boarding a flight to Argentina. 123 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: He was planning to spend two months they're recruiting for 124 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: his fledgling photo sharing app called ever Snap. He spoke 125 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: to our reporter Shelley Haggen about it. I arrived to 126 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: Bueno Sirius eleven PM the day after Buenasirius time. All 127 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: of a sudden, it starts getting messages from one of 128 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: my friends in the US and he's telling me about 129 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: what Trump has done. And at first I thought, Okay, 130 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: well this is really bad, but it shouldn't affect me 131 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: because I'm a Green card holder, UM permanent resident. Then 132 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: if one hour later he sent me an article about 133 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: how it's been confirmed that also permanent residents are also banned. 134 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: So um, then all of a sudden, things, you know, 135 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: it gets pretty scary because I have all my all 136 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: my business in the US. I have a gigantic house 137 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: in San Jose that I have all my stuff there. 138 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: You know, I I go to meetings all the time, 139 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: right with business partners, with investors, with founders when I'm 140 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: in the US, and it's something that my business relies 141 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: on me being able to be there and most of 142 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: the time. For now, Sasha's hope is that by the 143 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: time he's done with this two months recruiting in Argentina, 144 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: any ambiguity will be resolved, at least for Green card 145 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: holders like him. Nobody knows how it's going to play 146 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: out within the next couple of weeks. Right um, every 147 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: day we're getting some sort of new information, right and 148 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: it isn't even the administration himself. They're not clear on 149 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: what it entails. So my plan is to just, you know, 150 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: wait a week or two, see how everything unfolds, right, 151 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: and then take a take an education educated decision after that. 152 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: And then there's another couple we spoke with, the husbands 153 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: and engineer at one of the biggest tech companies here 154 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley, and he's been in the US for 155 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: nine years. His wife is a medical researcher at a 156 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: large university in California and she's been here for seventeen years. 157 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: They're both from Iran, and they've asked us not to 158 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: use their names or their employers names because unlike Hussain 159 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: and Sasha, they don't have the security of a U 160 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: screen card. Their applications pending, and now they're worried it's 161 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: never going to come through. I mean, the unstability, the unpredictability, 162 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 1: is just unbelievable. We had plans, we had I mean, 163 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: I'm a kind of a math type, so I would 164 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: just like look at the investments and figure out what's 165 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: the right amounts to do in the four one K 166 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: and what's the right balance of the funds and all 167 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: that stuff, figuring out based on what when we want 168 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: to retire, based on then we want to buy a house, 169 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: and you start planning for thirty or forty years in 170 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: the future in some way, right, And those plans were 171 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: here in the United yes, And then suddenly now we're 172 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: thinking about plans for tomorrow, next week, next month, trying 173 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: to predict what could happen if that happens. What can 174 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: I do? How can I move fast? How can I 175 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: be very dynamic to handle various different scenarios. It becomes 176 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 1: from a stable life with the future. In one day 177 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: or two it changes into a survival mode life in 178 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: a way that I know nothing about my future. I 179 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: don't know if I if I'm gonna be able to 180 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: legally work or stay at my home. I don't know 181 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: where in the world and I can go because as 182 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: I can't go back to your own for various reasons, 183 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: including that time, I'm not a Muslim and I'm atheist. 184 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: What would happen if you went backed her in and 185 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: the so To be honest, I'm not sure. They may 186 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: not care that much, or they may care a lot. 187 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: A lot of it is kind of arbitrary, which I'm 188 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: kind of worrying may happen here too. Arbitrary stuff. If 189 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: they don't like you for some reason, they're gonna dig 190 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: up everything on you and then attach that level to 191 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: you and then take your life away in various ways. 192 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: Coming up, we take a look at how the tech 193 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: industry has reacted to the executive order that's right after 194 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: these words from our sponsor. Inside the most successful organizations, 195 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: I T has gone from supporting the business to driving 196 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: the business. But the costs of legacy infrastructure can heed 197 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 1: this progress. Budgets can't stretch enough to pay for digital 198 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: innovation at the speed required. No one gets a blank check. 199 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: The answer is to change the economics of your I 200 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: T by shifting from ownership to use, from licenses to subscriptions, 201 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: from proprietary to open, change the economics of it with 202 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: open software from red hat. Learn more at red hat 203 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: dot com. So far, we've heard from Hussein, Sasha and 204 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: the couple who were not naming today. They're all directly 205 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: affected by the travel ban, and I think you can 206 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: really hear the uncertainty and the devastation in each of 207 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: their voices. You Know, what's been really striking to me 208 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: is how swift the response was from the tech community, 209 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: just how vociferous it was, at least at the beginning. 210 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: We didn't hear a whole lot from other industries. And 211 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: this was after months of careful steps that the tech 212 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: industry was taking to reconcile the Trump Tesla CEO Elon 213 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 1: Musk and Uber CEO Travis Kalenik both agreed to join 214 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: the President's Advisory Board and a host of tech leaders 215 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: they went to Trump Tower to meet the then president 216 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: elect during the transition. But after the travel band, top 217 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: tech leaders like Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg has spoken out. 218 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: He wrote a very personal post about his wife's parents 219 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: that they were refugees from Vietnam and China. It was 220 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: on the very day that the order was signed. Google 221 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: CEO Sundar Pichai sent out an internal memo talking about 222 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,119 Speaker 1: the more than one hundred employees who have been affected 223 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: by the actions, and he said that it's painful to 224 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: see the personal cost of Trump's actions. And Uber's Kalenik, 225 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: who joined Trump's Advisory Council, he announced on Thursday that 226 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: he was stepping down from the committee. In Seattle, Amazon 227 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: and Expedia file declarations that support Washington States pawsuit against 228 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: the executive order. Do you telling how the travel bands 229 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: hurt their businesses? This was the very lawsuit that led 230 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: to the nationwide temporary suspension of the travel restrictions. And 231 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 1: in New York, an industry group called Tech NYC came 232 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: out with a public letter to Trump opposing the executive order, 233 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: and it was signed by some of the biggest names 234 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: in the New York tech scene. I spoke to their 235 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: executive director, Julie Samuels. Many of the leaders in our 236 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: tech community here in New York City felt that they 237 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: wanted to do something, and you know, in these instances, 238 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: it's kind of hard to know what to do. We're 239 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: here in New York, We're not in d C. These 240 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: executive orders had been signed already, so we took the 241 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: opportunity to put together a letter once you can see 242 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: um at on our website, which is tech NYC dot org. 243 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: Within twelve hours, we had over four hundred signatures um all. 244 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: This took place on a Sunday afternoon, which is also notable. 245 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: Um people were coming out of the woodwork. So this 246 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: gets us to the question of why immigration. Why was 247 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: it this the travel restrictions that provoked such an outcry 248 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: from the tech industry. Well, for one, entrepreneurs are at 249 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: the core of the tech industry. These tiny startups are 250 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: often the ones coming out with the crazy next new 251 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: things that end up taking off. Between two thousand seven 252 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: and nearly of new businesses in California were started by 253 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: people born outside the US. Our reporter Shelley discussed this 254 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: in more details with David Mendel's, the CEO of bright Cove. 255 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: There're a midsize online video software company in Boston. You know, 256 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: I think you have to keep in mind that most 257 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: of the tech community is in places like Massachusetts where 258 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: we are uh Silicon Valley in California, New Yorkity, the Washington, 259 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: d C. Metropolitan area, and these are people that live 260 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: in incredibly diverse communities. UM for us, the idea of 261 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: working with a Muslim individual of Iranian descent is not 262 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: an abstract idea. That's something I do every day. I 263 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: think everybody here knows people who are being targeted or 264 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: feel like they're being targeted by this, and so I 265 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: think you really have no choice if you want to 266 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: be true to the people around you but to feel 267 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: strongly about this. So that's one point that these are 268 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: your friends and your coworkers and your neighbors. A related 269 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: point is that given how difficult it is for companies 270 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: to find good coders, tech companies don't want to lose 271 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: any of them. Google alone said there are over a 272 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: hundred employees affected by the band. Yeah, I actually didn't 273 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: know this until we started reporting for this podcast, but 274 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: there's a big community of Iranian engineers here in the 275 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: valley and industry executives. You're also worried that it's going 276 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: to hurt their ability to do business around the world. 277 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,719 Speaker 1: Here's David again. Well, I think there's all kinds of 278 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: things that could happen in the future, and there's all 279 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: kinds of spin on effects. So how's the rest of 280 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: the world going to react to America that is closing 281 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: its borders, not just with immigration issues and refugee issues, 282 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: but also all of the talk about tariffs. Um, that's 283 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: a problem for me. Our business is approximately outside the 284 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: United States. For an exporter, it is not in my 285 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: interest for us to put up walls metaphorical ones in 286 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: this case that make it harder for people to do 287 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: business with countries and the United companies in the United States, 288 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: because I think what we'll see its retaliation. You know, 289 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: it's hard to predict where things are going to go 290 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: from here. But our colleagues in Asia, Peter Eelstrom and 291 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: Serretha Ry, obtain a draft of a new executive order 292 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: that the Trump administration is considering, and that draft proposes 293 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: to get harder for all foreigners to get a work 294 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: visa here. The draft, which we should say has not 295 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: come into effect for now, it's just a draft that's 296 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: being passed around, says the changes would prioritize and protect quote, 297 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: American workers are forgotten working people and the jobs they hold. 298 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: And we'll note here that over the years there have 299 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: been some reports that some companies maybe abusing the H 300 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: one B work visa program that they hire foreign workers 301 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: so that they can pay them lower wages than they 302 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: would otherwise pay their American workers. But tech and Yes 303 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: Julie says that when smart, skilled foreigners come to work 304 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: in the US, Americans end up benefiting too. It is 305 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: incredibly important that we have open immigration policies that attract 306 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: the best, the brightest from other countries here to build 307 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: businesses here, to create jobs here. That's incredibly real. The 308 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: list of big companies that were founded are co founded 309 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: by an immigrant um is an incredible list. It includes 310 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: Tesla and includes Facebook. It includes some really big companies. 311 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: Research shows that net new job growth in the United 312 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: States comes from new firms. So while of course the 313 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: majority of startups fail, the ones that grow are the 314 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: ones that create all the new jobs. So we want 315 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: people here growing those companies. Oh, Google, I left Google 316 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: off the list. Think about how many new jobs Google 317 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: has created in the last decade. Hussaying, the CEO of 318 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: a Fido who he heard from earlier, is another example 319 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: of this. He's created eleven jobs here in the US 320 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: through his startup, and he's looking to hire more people, 321 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: and many of the tech workers affected by this measure 322 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: don't think they'll be replaced by American workers. The Iranian engineer, 323 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: whose wife is a medical researcher, Well, he said his 324 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 1: employer has already offered to move them to another international 325 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: office if that becomes necessary. The thing is that it's 326 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: not like a job that if if I leave, it's 327 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: it's sitting there and somebody get it. I have the 328 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: job because of the particular skill sets that I have. 329 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,239 Speaker 1: If I move, they move with me. It's it's not 330 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: that there's a hole and there's an opening that if 331 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: I'm not there, somebody else can feel it. It's it's 332 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: not that we are taking somebody's jobs. It's you have 333 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: those jobs a lot of people like us. The job 334 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: kind of gets created for the person you want, this 335 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: kind of person, and you figure out how to use 336 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: them to push forward your goals and your company or 337 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: your side, or your university or something like that. So, 338 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: as you said, it's not like the there's a there's 339 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: a whole whole ful field on Fidos who say also 340 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: told his two Randian employees that will move them to 341 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,959 Speaker 1: the UK if it comes to that. Yeah, it's not 342 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: like he's going to fire them and hire two Americans 343 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: in their place. Well, for now, we'll leave you on 344 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: this note. Since the executive order was officially signed on Friday, 345 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: have you both discussed potentially leaving the United States, maybe 346 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: going to Canada, maybe going to Europe. UM. I think 347 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: we are thinking about um, looking at every everywhere that 348 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: we can potentially go. This was the first thing that 349 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: came to our mind that what if this continues? This 350 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,479 Speaker 1: is not just the one time. Yeah, there is no 351 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: one in this world who can ever decide where they 352 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: where they want to be born. No one has ever 353 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: been able to decide that you're born somewhere. And the 354 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: hope was that there is this place on Earth, UM, 355 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: a particular country on then a North American continent that 356 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: didn't discriminate based on where you were born. Right to us, 357 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: I think America is more than a just country with 358 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: certain borders. It's an idea and I felt that that 359 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: idea is shattering that we've been searching for equality right 360 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: in I. I grew up in a kind of a 361 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:26,959 Speaker 1: lower middle class family in Iran. I grew up my 362 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: family was not connected in any ways to the power powers. 363 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,959 Speaker 1: I was always a second class citizen back home in 364 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: so many ways, by not believing, by not being connected, 365 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: by not being rich. And this was a country where 366 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: we thought those things wouldn't matter. We thought, and and 367 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: beside everywhere, weside in the movies, beside in the media, 368 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: beside in the laws, reside in the corn institution, we 369 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: saw it in the movements. I mean the civil rights movement, 370 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: the feminism movement. I mean I said, Okay, this is 371 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: the country where people are fought for those values and 372 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: they've achieved them, and we can go there and have 373 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: it and be there with these amazing people. That's it 374 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,959 Speaker 1: for this week's Decrypted. Thanks for listening. Well tell us 375 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: what you thought of this episode. Send a voice message 376 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 1: to our producer Pia at p g A d k 377 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: A r I at Bloomberg dot net, or write to 378 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: me on Twitter. I'm at Olivia's Leski and I'm at 379 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: Akio seven. You can subscribe to Decrypt it on iTunes 380 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast, and leave us a 381 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: rating in a review. This helps us make our show 382 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: better and it also gets our podcast in front of 383 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: more listeners. This episode was produced by Pierre get Cary 384 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: Magnus Hendrickson and Liz Smith. Shelley Hagen and Sarah Friar 385 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: helped with additional reporting. We'd like to say a special 386 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: thanks to Shoubert Shawberry, who runs the Persian Tech Entrepreneurs Network. 387 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: He connected us with a variety of startups for today's show. 388 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,719 Speaker 1: Alec McCabe is head of Bloomberg Podcasts. We'll see you 389 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: next week. Don't let your legacy I T systems cost 390 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: you money, innovation, and a place at the digital table 391 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: of the future. You can change your systems and the 392 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: economics of it with software from red Hat. See how 393 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: at red hat dot com.