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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: When Chicago released their debut album in nineteen sixty nine, they,

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Speaker 2: along with bands like Blood, Sweat and Tears, Sligne, The

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Speaker 2: Family Stone, and also James Brown and the JB's, We

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Speaker 2: defined what a band could be, blending brass, jaz sophistication,

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Speaker 2: and rock power into something completely unique. Over the next

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Speaker 2: half century, the band became one of the most commercially

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Speaker 2: successful acts in American music history, with a string of

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Speaker 2: hits that remained staples of classic rock radio even today.

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Speaker 2: By nineteen seventy five, when Chicago nine Chicago's Greatest Hits, arrived,

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Speaker 2: the band had already amassed an extraordinary catalog of songs

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Speaker 2: that captured both the experimental spirit of the late sixties

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Speaker 2: with the pop sensibility of the seventies. That compilation became

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Speaker 2: one of the best selling albums of the decade. Now

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Speaker 2: Chicago is celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of that landmark release

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Speaker 2: with an expanded edition that offers fans a deeper look

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Speaker 2: at this pivotal moment in the band's history. On today's episode,

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Speaker 2: Bruce Headlam talks to Lee Locknane and Jimmy Panco of

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Speaker 2: Chicago about recording their early albums. They also discussed what

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Speaker 2: inspired them to incorporate a horn section into a rock band,

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Speaker 2: and they explained why after decades of been on the

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Speaker 2: road since the late seventies, they don't even bother to

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Speaker 2: unpack those suitcases anymore. This is broken record, real musicians,

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Speaker 2: real conversations. Here's Bruce Headlam with Lee Locknane and Jimmy

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Speaker 2: Panco of Chicago.

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Speaker 1: We have Lee Locknane and Jimmy Panco. Hello, two of

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Speaker 1: the original members of the Great band Chicago to composers, arrangers,

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Speaker 1: but I think most importantly two members of the brass section,

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Speaker 1: because that is what really drove so much of that

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Speaker 1: horns with the horns.

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Speaker 3: Actually hid one of the greatest guitar players away from

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Speaker 3: being top.

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Speaker 1: Ten recognized as a great guitar player.

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Speaker 3: I think people recognize, well, they recognize him, but it

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Speaker 3: was really he came in second to the brass when

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Speaker 3: we were really up there popularity wise.

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Speaker 1: And I do want to mention the third member of

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Speaker 1: the National Brass Yes, Walter oh Walt Perizader. I feel

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Speaker 1: he's here in spirit, yes, so we talk about all.

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Speaker 4: You know, he was a big part of this. He

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Speaker 4: actually came up with the idea you know that wound

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Speaker 4: up becoming Chicago. We were students at Deepaul University and

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Speaker 4: Walt and Danny Sarafin and Terry Cath were members of

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Speaker 4: a club act that we're working at Chicago, which we're

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Speaker 4: kind of.

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Speaker 5: On the way out.

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Speaker 4: And Walt knew Lee and I at Deepaul University and

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Speaker 4: he approached us with this, Hey, you guys, what do

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Speaker 4: you think about this idea? Because we used to go

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Speaker 4: to the Pussycat and sit in with them. They were

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Speaker 4: called the Missing Links, and Lee and I would go

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Speaker 4: show up.

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Speaker 5: I played every now and then. Yeah, what kinds where

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Speaker 5: they play Top forty? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, everybody that played We played Top forty when we

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Speaker 4: were We were a club act before we left to

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Speaker 4: go to California to make records. But he approached us

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Speaker 4: with this idea, what do you guys think about a

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Speaker 4: rock and roll group with a horn section that's like

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Speaker 4: a main character?

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Speaker 5: You know?

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Speaker 3: How can we We were thinking of going to Vegas

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Speaker 3: and playing those like side clubs rather than the big rooms.

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Speaker 1: And somebody told me that he got that idea from

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Speaker 1: a Beatles song, Got to get You into My life?

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Speaker 1: Is that true?

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Speaker 5: Well? I don't know I don't know.

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Speaker 4: We did a cover of Got to Get You Into

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Speaker 4: My Life and the clubs as well as Magical Mystery

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Speaker 4: Tour Little Help from My Friends, and I kind.

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Speaker 3: Of recorded it me because I played bass on Little

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Speaker 3: Help From As You did boo boom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was it true. He said from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: it'll be a democracy.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, we all thought the same thing. We just

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Speaker 3: shook hands and let's do this.

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Speaker 4: We met wals apartment and agreed to devote all our

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Speaker 4: energy and time to this idea.

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Speaker 5: And you know we should.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And he said you can only leave two ways,

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Speaker 1: you ask out or you die.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, A little final for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well I'll want a decision by the end

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Speaker 1: of the podcast for both of you. Guys.

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Speaker 5: What are you going to do next?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? So you are in New York. Your Chicago band

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Speaker 1: you you Mad you Bones in LA. But New York

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Speaker 1: is where you recorded I think your first two albums. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you have fond memories of New York. I was a

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Speaker 1: fifty second What kind of studio is that?

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Speaker 4: It was a multi story office building and they had

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Speaker 4: several studios on several floors and uh we.

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Speaker 3: Food aid shift and Simon and Garfunkel had it at

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Speaker 3: the day.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we were We were the new guys, so they

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Speaker 4: gave us the graveyard shift. Simon and garfunk recorded all

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Speaker 4: day and then we started recording at midnight and wound

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Speaker 4: up going back to the hotel.

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Speaker 5: The only people on the street were the garbage drugs.

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Speaker 3: Go back to the hotel with a triple decker sandwich

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Speaker 3: and you never good to go.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, the stage deli.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And did you meet with Simon and Garfunkel

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Speaker 1: while you were there? Did you?

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Speaker 5: Actually? I never saw. I'm met Art in the elevator.

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Speaker 5: Really yeah. I was coming to work and he was leaving. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we just had kind of two ships in the night,

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Speaker 4: you know, but we did.

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Speaker 5: You know, Jimmy.

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Speaker 4: Gercio was producing us, and he got close to Roy

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Speaker 4: Hallie who was producing Simon and Garfriend and they traded

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Speaker 4: notes and Roy actually came down and assisted in some

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Speaker 4: of the recording techniques.

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Speaker 1: No, no kidding.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he added some of his expertise, and he also

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Speaker 4: knew the board at CBS very well.

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Speaker 3: Well, he knew the board, but he wasn't ready for

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Speaker 3: rookies to come in. He left the project pretty quickly

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Speaker 3: because we were learning how to record. We knew how

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Speaker 3: to play these songs backwards and forwards because we'd been

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Speaker 3: working with them in the various clubs that we played,

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Speaker 3: but we had to learn how to record, how far

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Speaker 3: to stand away from them, you know, being worried about

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, I can't make a mistake because this microphone,

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Speaker 3: the thing is in my way here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was quite intimidating, you know. And I say this,

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Speaker 4: you know, in performance, knowing that this was going on

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Speaker 4: tape forever.

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Speaker 5: We better do this right.

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Speaker 1: But you had producers to set up the room. Oh sure,

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Speaker 1: but still it took a lot of figuring out.

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Speaker 3: It's just a matter of the actual playing the instrument

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Speaker 3: to that thing and then going into the control room

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Speaker 3: and listening to it backing on. Oh so I have

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Speaker 3: to step back a little bit on this to do

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Speaker 3: a better blend, a natural blend. I mean, they can

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Speaker 3: do it electronically and with the with the everything inside

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Speaker 3: the control room, but it's better if we control ourselves.

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Speaker 4: We had, Yeah, we kind of had to mix ourselves

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Speaker 4: in the room, you know, to get the right blend

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Speaker 4: in the section, especially when you do an overdub.

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Speaker 1: Now, when you recorded back then would you do the

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Speaker 1: the rhythm tracks first? Would you do the piano and

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Speaker 1: then add the horns?

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Speaker 4: Well, it was a progressive process. We actually started recording

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Speaker 4: with the whole band in the room, you know, you know,

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Speaker 4: we live track because we would realize that we needed

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Speaker 4: to isolate things because if somebody were to stay it

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Speaker 4: was audible on every instrument.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we were doing We.

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Speaker 3: Were doing isolation already, we had stuff in between us,

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Speaker 3: so it would lessen that problem. But we were able

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Speaker 3: to record with the brass because we were going to

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Speaker 3: play the same notes on the song, so when we

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Speaker 3: did it on our own, the bleed through wasn't going

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Speaker 3: to matter.

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Speaker 4: But you know, interestingly enough, you know, the technology wasn't

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Speaker 4: available in those days. We recorded on eight tracks, and

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Speaker 4: they only had so much they could do with so

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Speaker 4: little room, so we utilized various rooms. We actually recorded

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Speaker 4: does anybody really time it as an introduction in the church.

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Speaker 4: They used a cathedral downtown, I don't know which one

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Speaker 4: with a high ceiling and it created a natural room

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Speaker 4: echo that we couldn't get on the board because we

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Speaker 4: didn't have the technology, So we used the church to

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Speaker 4: That's how you get it. That's why those cuts on

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Speaker 4: Chicago Transit Authority had that big room sound because of

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Speaker 4: the the nature of the room that we recorded in.

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Speaker 1: How many of those tracks did you record at the church?

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Speaker 5: I know we did those two.

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Speaker 4: We might have done questions there too, I think we did.

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Speaker 5: We did.

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Speaker 4: But Simon and garfunk Cal, you know, got busy and

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Speaker 4: busy and busier, and we went to a smaller room

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Speaker 4: on the second floor with Studio B and we had to,

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Speaker 4: you know, kind of reapproach everything all over again. It

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Speaker 4: was a different parameter in terms of acoustics. I remember

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Speaker 4: on Make Me Smile, Gercio had me go in the bathroom.

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Speaker 4: They ran a mike cable into the bathroom and I

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Speaker 4: was whacking the toilet seat with a newspaper to fatten

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Speaker 4: the snare.

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Speaker 5: I mean, we you know, we used tricks like what

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Speaker 5: you had.

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Speaker 3: You can get away a lot of stuff, and it's

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Speaker 3: just you know, creative.

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Speaker 1: We should do business first before we talk.

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Speaker 5: The business is.

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Speaker 1: The business is you put out one of the best

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Speaker 1: selling greatest hits collections of all time, which was Chicago nine.

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Speaker 1: All right, and if you like the songs on it

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Speaker 1: are just all these incredible classics. You're re releasing a

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Speaker 1: new version.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's the fiftieth anniversary.

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Speaker 1: Fiftieth anniversary.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a re release of the greatest Hits with

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Speaker 4: twenty one tracks.

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Speaker 1: The original was eleven, I think.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, And we threw a bunch more songs on

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Speaker 4: the re release, including the first eight albums and then

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Speaker 4: even some cuts from Chicago ten which follows.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you listen to the remixes? Do you like

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Speaker 1: what you hear?

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Speaker 5: Sure? You know.

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Speaker 3: The thing is that we've heard them so many times,

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Speaker 3: and when we play them live now, when we go back,

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Speaker 3: I can listen to at least when I go back

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Speaker 3: and listen to the original recordings, I realize how much

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Speaker 3: we have developed the songs even further through the years.

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Speaker 3: It's amazing to me that it's not quite exactly the

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Speaker 3: same as what it was when we recorded. We're doing

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Speaker 3: a little some different harmonies, we're doing a little different breaks,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 5: It's just is that interesting? It was organic?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I also want to mention this is your fifty

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Speaker 1: eighth consecutive year of touring, Yes, which is staggered. You've

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Speaker 1: toured every year, every year, every year, even through COVID, well,

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Speaker 1: even through.

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Speaker 3: COVID well we worked the first two months of COVID

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Speaker 3: up until we were working in Las Vegas.

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Speaker 5: Vegas. We were the last stand on the strip.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, Yeah, it's great.

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Speaker 4: Rod start was at the Coliseum and we were at

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Speaker 4: the Venetian and it was Saturday night, March.

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Speaker 5: Seventeen, I think it was the sixteenth.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I got in the car to fly home

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Speaker 4: the next Sunday morning. The driver turn around, looked at

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Speaker 4: me and say, good thing, you're leaving. Vegas is going

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Speaker 4: down to five percent occupancy tomorrow. It's going to be

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Speaker 4: a ghost town.

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Speaker 1: So wow, we got the heck out of town.

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Speaker 5: But it was pretty wild.

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Speaker 4: It was very weird, and we actually thought we were

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Speaker 4: going to go back to work real quick, that it

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Speaker 4: was going to be everybody two or three weeks and

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Speaker 4: may we're back.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember was there something odd about that last

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Speaker 1: show was where people already talking and thinking about COVID.

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Speaker 4: For us, it was business as usual, the same thing

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Speaker 4: we just do. That was yeah, and then next thing

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Speaker 4: you know, we were off the road. Everybody was off

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Speaker 4: the road. Yeah, it was a complete shutdown, but we

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Speaker 4: were one of the first people to go back with

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Speaker 4: June of twenty.

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Speaker 3: June of twenty one, we were off for a whole

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Speaker 3: fifteen months.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, right, right, okay.

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Speaker 3: So we worked each year. We worked the beginning of

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Speaker 3: the year in twenty twenty, and then the world shut down,

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Speaker 3: and then we came back as soon as we possibly could.

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Speaker 3: We kept trying to go back on the road, but

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Speaker 3: nobody was over up their buildings.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but yeah, yeah, I'm being home that long was

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Speaker 4: strange because we were never home that long.

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Speaker 1: Other than COVID. What is the longest time you took

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Speaker 1: away from the road as manned.

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Speaker 5: Probably six months?

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Speaker 1: Really really, it just never gets tired.

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Speaker 5: I stopped unpecking. Yeah, I'm always backed. Yeah too.

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Speaker 3: I take the dirty clothes out, clean them, put them

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Speaker 3: back in the bag, exactly, wait to leave from the environment.

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Speaker 4: You know, we're always ready to go to the next fire.

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Speaker 1: Slide down the pole, when the when the Chicago signal

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Speaker 1: goes off in the sky.

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Speaker 4: Exactly, and they're still coming. You know, they were sold

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Speaker 4: out every night. It's it's a it's a phenomenon we

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Speaker 4: never ever expect, did you know? You see four generations

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Speaker 4: in the audience and they're all they're all grooving on

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Speaker 4: their own level.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing. Okay, I'm gonna do something that I never do,

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Speaker 1: because you were just mentioning that first.

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Speaker 4: Album and I'm I'm.

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Speaker 1: Not gonna I've never done that, but no, I'm just

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Speaker 1: gonna play. I wanted to play till to that last

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Speaker 1: little becomes a horn fill throughout the whole song, just

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Speaker 1: because that to me, if if you could just play

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Speaker 1: that five seconds to someone, they would just go, that's

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Speaker 1: that is to me, that's Chicagoe.

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Speaker 5: I can name that too.

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Speaker 1: You can name that tone, name that band. So, now,

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Speaker 1: this was not a song you guys wrote.

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Speaker 5: Robert wrote it, Robert Liam wrote that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and so because you had multiple composers, what was

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Speaker 1: the what was the process for introducing songs to the band?

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Speaker 1: Did you have something formal? Do you all sit down?

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Speaker 5: We just brought songs in.

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Speaker 4: You know, you do a demo and you know you

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Speaker 4: sing a rough guide lead into the tape machine with

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Speaker 4: the piano part. As you're saying it, that was a demo.

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Speaker 4: Now it's a record. You know, people were making records

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Speaker 4: for demos, and I remember bringing you know, I wrote

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Speaker 4: just you and me and I brought it in. We

292
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Speaker 4: were at Caribou Ranch and the guys were all there,

293
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Speaker 4: and I brought the song in and you know, again

294
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Speaker 4: it was the cassette with You and My Love and

295
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Speaker 4: my Life with acoustic piano, and you know, we put

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Speaker 4: it in the machine in the booth and everybody listened

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Speaker 4: to it. I said, is this any good? And Robert

298
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Speaker 4: looked at me. He said, Jimmy, that's a hit song.

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Speaker 4: I went, really yeah, And so you know, I didn't know.

300
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Speaker 4: It was a personal experience at the piano, just like

301
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Speaker 4: when Lee writes his song.

302
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Speaker 5: We and we just we would bring what we had

303
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Speaker 5: into the room.

304
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Speaker 4: And everybody kind of voted on it, you know, and

305
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Speaker 4: the song really didn't come alive until everybody in the

306
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Speaker 4: band added their special magic to it individually.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is what I'm interested in this song in

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Speaker 1: particular because to me, it's it's such a great encapsulation

309
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Speaker 1: of your music. Then you god, chord changes, key changes,

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Speaker 1: tempo changes, I mean, everything is constantly moving. For example,

311
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Speaker 1: the brass stuff, those brass, the stabs off the start,

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Speaker 1: that great rift towards the end. Like was that part

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Speaker 1: of what Robert brought in or was that something you

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Speaker 1: guys added? How did that work?

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Speaker 5: Robert actually arranged his own horns back. Is that right?

316
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Speaker 5: Anybody really? Time it is?

317
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Speaker 4: Beginnings, students, those are no. I did questions, but he did.

318
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Speaker 4: He did beginnings. He did does anybody real any time?

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Speaker 5: It is?

320
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Speaker 4: He did dialogue and quite a few others, and I

321
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Speaker 4: kept in current, Man, Robert, you arrange some great stuff. Man,

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Speaker 4: you should keep going with this. But he realized how

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Speaker 4: difficult it was.

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Speaker 5: He had Jimmy just killing me.

325
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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So those were his those were his ideas.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing.

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Speaker 5: Beginning.

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Speaker 4: There were there were occasions that I had to come

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Speaker 4: in and revoice things because he wasn't particularly adept at

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Speaker 4: voicing because it wasn't his thing. So he'd write the charts,

331
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Speaker 4: which are his arrangements, and I just revoice him to, uh,

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Speaker 4: capture the essence of the section.

333
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Speaker 1: So tell me what that means revoicing it in terms

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Speaker 1: of the well.

335
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Speaker 4: You know, typically, you know, I kind of inherited the

336
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Speaker 4: chair for or creating this approach to the horns. And

337
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Speaker 4: uh maybe because you know, I played trombone. What I

338
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Speaker 4: was hearing was a trombone lead. Yeah, so you know

339
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Speaker 4: the trombone because it's a baritone instrument, and the trumpet

340
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Speaker 4: and the sacks are above it.

341
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Speaker 5: If I voiced it.

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Speaker 4: By nature of the instrument, the disparity and the voices

343
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Speaker 4: would not be cool. It wouldn't be the equanimity of

344
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Speaker 4: the voicing would not happen, you know. So I had

345
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Speaker 4: to I.

346
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Speaker 5: Had to play up an active basically. Yeah.

347
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Speaker 4: So you know, Yeah, is basically in the upper register

348
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Speaker 4: for a lot of the charts, and the trumpet is

349
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Speaker 4: in the middle, and then the sacks is right there

350
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Speaker 4: in the middle between the trumpet and the trombone, so

351
00:19:05,196 --> 00:19:07,476
Speaker 4: it tightens the voicing.

352
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Speaker 1: Was the was the trumpet amos always on top?

353
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Speaker 4: Well, there's there are times of times the trumpet, Yeah,

354
00:19:13,196 --> 00:19:14,516
Speaker 4: it leaves upstairs too.

355
00:19:14,796 --> 00:19:16,876
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, it isn't always like that.

356
00:19:16,956 --> 00:19:23,996
Speaker 4: But in terms of just the typical accompaniment with the vocals, right, yeah,

357
00:19:24,036 --> 00:19:27,636
Speaker 4: the section is more tight. The voicing is tight, so

358
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Speaker 4: it has more of a punch, you know. And then

359
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Speaker 4: we overdob and we put the trumpet upstairs on the

360
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Speaker 4: on the double, and we put the bone, I do

361
00:19:37,756 --> 00:19:40,876
Speaker 4: the pedals on the bone, and we might.

362
00:19:40,716 --> 00:19:45,436
Speaker 3: Play a wide triad, but then let the rhythm section

363
00:19:45,596 --> 00:19:53,156
Speaker 3: play the color notes, the sevens extensions.

364
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Speaker 4: That's the conundrum when we're playing live, you have to

365
00:19:59,516 --> 00:20:03,636
Speaker 4: pick there's only three of us, Okay, in live performance.

366
00:20:04,516 --> 00:20:07,596
Speaker 4: In the studio we had the luxury of overdobing of

367
00:20:07,716 --> 00:20:11,196
Speaker 4: multi so we could we could add all those extensions

368
00:20:11,356 --> 00:20:15,036
Speaker 4: in the second take or even the third take. Sometimes

369
00:20:15,116 --> 00:20:18,916
Speaker 4: we tripled if we wanted really a big sound. But

370
00:20:19,076 --> 00:20:22,676
Speaker 4: live there's only three of us, So it's very important

371
00:20:23,116 --> 00:20:26,676
Speaker 4: to be economically precise. You have to pick just the

372
00:20:26,756 --> 00:20:31,876
Speaker 4: right three voices to express the nature of the chord.

373
00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:35,276
Speaker 4: If it's a seven chord or a nine chord, you're

374
00:20:35,316 --> 00:20:37,276
Speaker 4: not going to just play the root and the third

375
00:20:37,276 --> 00:20:40,156
Speaker 4: and the fifth. You need to play those extensions to

376
00:20:40,396 --> 00:20:43,396
Speaker 4: paint the right colors of that extended chord.

377
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Speaker 1: And you'd hope that the base or somebody else was filled.

378
00:20:47,076 --> 00:20:50,196
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, yeah, you'll leave yeah, you leave the guts

379
00:20:50,196 --> 00:20:51,116
Speaker 4: to the rhythm section.

380
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Speaker 1: But you're saying sometimes you guys would play chord tones

381
00:20:54,636 --> 00:20:57,756
Speaker 1: and leave the color notes to sure the rest of

382
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Speaker 1: the band. To me, that famous riff phil at the

383
00:21:03,036 --> 00:21:06,796
Speaker 1: end of what I just played, it's got the it's

384
00:21:06,996 --> 00:21:09,636
Speaker 1: the Is that the trumpet on top doing hitting the

385
00:21:09,636 --> 00:21:14,476
Speaker 1: single note? Yes, and then there's the trombone in the sacks.

386
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Speaker 5: Are oh bo.

387
00:21:18,796 --> 00:21:20,996
Speaker 1: Yeah, are they playing the same note orre they playing

388
00:21:21,036 --> 00:21:21,676
Speaker 1: different notes?

389
00:21:21,756 --> 00:21:23,396
Speaker 5: Different notes? Different notes?

390
00:21:23,476 --> 00:21:25,356
Speaker 1: Okay, were they in maybe thirds or something?

391
00:21:25,476 --> 00:21:28,476
Speaker 3: They're playing thirds. I'm playing at the top note b

392
00:21:29,916 --> 00:21:31,516
Speaker 3: b b B.

393
00:21:33,916 --> 00:21:34,236
Speaker 5: Chord.

394
00:21:34,836 --> 00:21:37,876
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, But this is the way Robert wanted it.

395
00:21:38,236 --> 00:21:42,276
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I got a kick out of his A

396
00:21:42,316 --> 00:21:43,156
Speaker 4: lot of his voicing.

397
00:21:43,196 --> 00:21:45,516
Speaker 5: I left alone because it was really great.

398
00:21:45,916 --> 00:21:48,156
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just simple to the point.

399
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Speaker 5: I mean, I have to be at beginnings. Be let

400
00:21:52,516 --> 00:21:55,956
Speaker 5: it live, let it.

401
00:21:56,476 --> 00:22:00,676
Speaker 4: I mean the alto trumpet line in the beginning, it's

402
00:22:00,676 --> 00:22:02,636
Speaker 4: still I get chills when I hear it.

403
00:22:02,676 --> 00:22:05,236
Speaker 5: I love it. I mean, Robert wrote some great stuff.

404
00:22:05,956 --> 00:22:08,636
Speaker 1: And then for you guys for playing, I mean, I

405
00:22:08,676 --> 00:22:11,756
Speaker 1: know different groups. You know, string quartets. People are always

406
00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:14,116
Speaker 1: looking at each other. There's a lot of body language

407
00:22:14,116 --> 00:22:16,716
Speaker 1: to signal when you're coming in. How did you guys

408
00:22:16,836 --> 00:22:19,036
Speaker 1: learn to play so precisely together?

409
00:22:19,996 --> 00:22:22,756
Speaker 5: We guessed, and we guessed write a lot.

410
00:22:23,876 --> 00:22:25,836
Speaker 4: You know what, man, I gotta tell you a lot

411
00:22:25,876 --> 00:22:28,476
Speaker 4: of times Jimmy would say, Okay, this next time, we're

412
00:22:28,516 --> 00:22:29,996
Speaker 4: gonna go boah.

413
00:22:30,356 --> 00:22:33,556
Speaker 3: We're gonna like we called it the grease, right, We're

414
00:22:33,556 --> 00:22:35,836
Speaker 3: gonna put the grease on the second note, and I

415
00:22:35,836 --> 00:22:38,356
Speaker 3: would go, he's not gonna put the grease on the

416
00:22:38,436 --> 00:22:41,236
Speaker 3: second note, He's gonna do it on a third note.

417
00:22:41,236 --> 00:22:43,276
Speaker 5: So I'd do it on the third and I would

418
00:22:43,396 --> 00:22:47,356
Speaker 5: make it too well, and he was I knew he

419
00:22:47,396 --> 00:22:48,156
Speaker 5: wasn't gonna do it.

420
00:22:48,396 --> 00:22:49,716
Speaker 1: How do you know he wasn't going to do it?

421
00:22:49,836 --> 00:22:52,796
Speaker 5: I didn't for sure, but I just guessed right.

422
00:22:53,236 --> 00:22:56,876
Speaker 4: But you know the old adage, you know, the horn

423
00:22:56,996 --> 00:22:59,716
Speaker 4: section is like one set of lungs. You know, we

424
00:22:59,796 --> 00:23:03,676
Speaker 4: feel each other by its asmosis or something. And you

425
00:23:03,716 --> 00:23:07,276
Speaker 4: know when I'll never forget it. When we assembled for

426
00:23:07,356 --> 00:23:11,556
Speaker 4: the first time, and we'll to parents basement in Maywell, Illinois,

427
00:23:12,116 --> 00:23:15,236
Speaker 4: and we were playing James Brown Stuff.

428
00:23:15,956 --> 00:23:18,476
Speaker 5: I heard it. Papa's got a brand new band. Papa's

429
00:23:18,516 --> 00:23:24,396
Speaker 5: got I heard it immediately. I said, this is magic.

430
00:23:24,716 --> 00:23:26,996
Speaker 1: You just knew this is you. Three guys were locked in.

431
00:23:27,436 --> 00:23:32,276
Speaker 4: I'm yeah, I was, I mean blown away. It was magic.

432
00:23:33,116 --> 00:23:34,996
Speaker 4: I said, this is unbelievable.

433
00:23:36,156 --> 00:23:37,956
Speaker 2: We'll be back with more from Lee, Lock Nane and

434
00:23:38,036 --> 00:23:39,596
Speaker 2: Jimmy Panco after the break.

435
00:23:43,996 --> 00:23:45,636
Speaker 1: I want to take you back just a little bit

436
00:23:45,676 --> 00:23:48,676
Speaker 1: further before you met what and I'll start with you Lee.

437
00:23:48,756 --> 00:23:51,996
Speaker 1: What were how did music come into your life? What

438
00:23:52,076 --> 00:23:54,636
Speaker 1: was We were playing with different bands, but but even

439
00:23:54,636 --> 00:23:55,876
Speaker 1: before that year a band.

440
00:23:55,796 --> 00:24:02,556
Speaker 3: Called Ross and Majestics and Andow Band, and we played

441
00:24:02,596 --> 00:24:07,716
Speaker 3: the Irish clubs in Chicago. We played like R and B,

442
00:24:08,036 --> 00:24:12,476
Speaker 3: well not R and B, country and western songs, Irish

443
00:24:12,596 --> 00:24:15,036
Speaker 3: dances and all kinds of stuff, you know.

444
00:24:15,756 --> 00:24:18,476
Speaker 1: And was your family musical? Is that how you?

445
00:24:18,596 --> 00:24:20,276
Speaker 3: My father was a trumpet player.

446
00:24:20,396 --> 00:24:21,516
Speaker 1: Oh was that right? Okay?

447
00:24:21,676 --> 00:24:24,756
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was. He was a band leader and he

448
00:24:24,916 --> 00:24:28,356
Speaker 3: never actually left the States. He was a chief warrant

449
00:24:28,356 --> 00:24:31,836
Speaker 3: officer in the Army Air Force when it was combined

450
00:24:31,876 --> 00:24:36,396
Speaker 3: at the time, and he'd have all these players come through.

451
00:24:37,636 --> 00:24:40,716
Speaker 5: And then go to the front vides. Right.

452
00:24:40,836 --> 00:24:43,676
Speaker 1: Did he play with a lot of military.

453
00:24:43,916 --> 00:24:45,956
Speaker 3: I think he had stopped playing by that time. He

454
00:24:45,996 --> 00:24:48,756
Speaker 3: was just the band leader and these cats would come

455
00:24:48,796 --> 00:24:50,796
Speaker 3: through and then go. He would let him go a

456
00:24:50,916 --> 00:24:51,796
Speaker 3: well on the weekend.

457
00:24:55,236 --> 00:24:59,876
Speaker 1: So you sorry, no, absolutely, of course, I'm.

458
00:24:59,676 --> 00:25:02,276
Speaker 5: The cry baby of the band, by the way. Okay,

459
00:25:02,436 --> 00:25:05,716
Speaker 5: sentimental irishman. That's well.

460
00:25:05,756 --> 00:25:07,916
Speaker 1: If you can't be sentimental with your father, I don't

461
00:25:07,916 --> 00:25:09,436
Speaker 1: see what you can't, Candy.

462
00:25:09,556 --> 00:25:13,196
Speaker 3: Absolutely, he was good to them and they then they'd

463
00:25:13,196 --> 00:25:15,716
Speaker 3: go over and fight the war and hopefully come back.

464
00:25:16,236 --> 00:25:19,196
Speaker 3: But they were some of the greatest players out of

465
00:25:19,236 --> 00:25:22,316
Speaker 3: the big bands, you know, Tommy Dorsey and Jimmy Dorsey

466
00:25:22,356 --> 00:25:25,596
Speaker 3: and Glenn Miller, all those bands. When they got drafted,

467
00:25:25,836 --> 00:25:27,036
Speaker 3: they'd come through his band.

468
00:25:27,276 --> 00:25:30,436
Speaker 1: Is that right? Did he have stories about them?

469
00:25:30,996 --> 00:25:33,316
Speaker 3: He didn't like to tell the stories. He wanted to

470
00:25:33,356 --> 00:25:34,876
Speaker 3: get away from it when he came home.

471
00:25:35,196 --> 00:25:38,796
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, And did you play in school? Did you

472
00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:39,876
Speaker 1: do play school school?

473
00:25:39,876 --> 00:25:42,636
Speaker 5: And I started in grade school? Yeah, eleven years old.

474
00:25:43,116 --> 00:25:47,196
Speaker 1: Wow, And that was back when in grade school they

475
00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:49,156
Speaker 1: walked you into a big room full of brass and

476
00:25:49,156 --> 00:25:52,196
Speaker 1: said pick an instrument. Yep, there was a lot of

477
00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:52,876
Speaker 1: that in schools.

478
00:25:52,956 --> 00:25:56,116
Speaker 3: Well, he had played the trumpet, so that was the

479
00:25:56,156 --> 00:25:56,876
Speaker 3: first choice.

480
00:25:57,116 --> 00:25:57,396
Speaker 1: Yeah.

481
00:25:57,476 --> 00:25:59,596
Speaker 3: And they just checked my teeth to make sure I

482
00:25:59,676 --> 00:26:03,436
Speaker 3: wasn't going to harm myself. You know, my lips were

483
00:26:03,436 --> 00:26:05,996
Speaker 3: gonna be bloody mess by the time I got done.

484
00:26:06,916 --> 00:26:10,276
Speaker 3: And it seemed to work out, so I never stopped since.

485
00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:13,156
Speaker 1: And then you went to college for music, Yes.

486
00:26:13,316 --> 00:26:15,396
Speaker 3: The Paul University and which where we met.

487
00:26:15,556 --> 00:26:16,956
Speaker 1: And were your parents happy about that?

488
00:26:17,756 --> 00:26:20,516
Speaker 3: They weren't too happy when I decided to do this

489
00:26:20,556 --> 00:26:22,276
Speaker 3: for a living. They were trying to talk me out

490
00:26:22,316 --> 00:26:25,676
Speaker 3: of doing it, and because you know how many people

491
00:26:25,756 --> 00:26:28,476
Speaker 3: make it, I was one of the lucky ones. We

492
00:26:28,476 --> 00:26:30,636
Speaker 3: were a couple of the lucky ones.

493
00:26:31,196 --> 00:26:33,036
Speaker 1: Did when did they finally accept that you'd made it?

494
00:26:34,076 --> 00:26:36,636
Speaker 3: I'm not exactly sure, but when they started coming to

495
00:26:36,676 --> 00:26:37,116
Speaker 3: shows and.

496
00:26:37,076 --> 00:26:39,236
Speaker 1: Going that's pretty good any day now.

497
00:26:40,236 --> 00:26:42,596
Speaker 3: I mean like when you mentioned does anybody know what

498
00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:45,516
Speaker 3: time it is? That was sort of a crossover from

499
00:26:45,556 --> 00:26:48,476
Speaker 3: the big bands to modern rock and roll?

500
00:26:48,916 --> 00:26:51,756
Speaker 1: And then what were your Were you influenced by big

501
00:26:51,796 --> 00:26:52,676
Speaker 1: bands growing up?

502
00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:53,156
Speaker 5: Yeah?

503
00:26:53,236 --> 00:26:55,316
Speaker 3: Yeah, because my dad had all those records. I used

504
00:26:55,316 --> 00:26:59,076
Speaker 3: to to play along with them.

505
00:26:59,116 --> 00:27:01,876
Speaker 1: You guys aren't unique. Their their blood, sweat and tears.

506
00:27:02,036 --> 00:27:06,476
Speaker 1: Other bands would have bigger horn. James Brown I think

507
00:27:06,516 --> 00:27:09,316
Speaker 1: had a trombone, but not a lot of bands had

508
00:27:09,356 --> 00:27:12,916
Speaker 1: your sound. Slim the Family, stonehead a trumpet.

509
00:27:13,556 --> 00:27:17,836
Speaker 3: Well, the brass was always uh a background instrument and

510
00:27:17,956 --> 00:27:21,396
Speaker 3: all the other bands. We were a lead voice. We

511
00:27:21,476 --> 00:27:22,396
Speaker 3: became a lead band.

512
00:27:22,756 --> 00:27:28,316
Speaker 4: Our approach is melodic, whereas a typical horn section is

513
00:27:28,396 --> 00:27:33,516
Speaker 4: harmonic and frosting on the cake. Because we are a

514
00:27:33,596 --> 00:27:37,676
Speaker 4: lead voice, we are a melodic horn section that interplays

515
00:27:37,756 --> 00:27:41,276
Speaker 4: in and around what the lead vocal is doing, so

516
00:27:41,396 --> 00:27:44,796
Speaker 4: it becomes intrinsic in the song. If you take the

517
00:27:44,876 --> 00:27:46,876
Speaker 4: brass out, there's empty spaces.

518
00:27:47,716 --> 00:27:49,836
Speaker 1: Were there models for that that you listened to?

519
00:27:50,356 --> 00:27:53,436
Speaker 5: No, I just I arranged what I heard. I wanted.

520
00:27:53,476 --> 00:27:58,436
Speaker 4: I wanted the section to be a lead voice, and

521
00:27:58,476 --> 00:27:59,196
Speaker 4: that wasn't just.

522
00:28:00,756 --> 00:28:10,236
Speaker 5: Not shots. You know, do you Emma seeless, right?

523
00:28:10,476 --> 00:28:14,076
Speaker 4: And that's kind of the approach we do, because if

524
00:28:14,116 --> 00:28:17,476
Speaker 4: you take it away, you know there's something missing. Maybe

525
00:28:17,636 --> 00:28:23,316
Speaker 4: subconsciously it was job security, but you know, you know,

526
00:28:23,676 --> 00:28:25,236
Speaker 4: we just felt it out.

527
00:28:25,956 --> 00:28:29,516
Speaker 3: Interesting that you say job security, because there are people

528
00:28:29,556 --> 00:28:34,356
Speaker 3: now who, for whatever reasons, they have decided that they

529
00:28:34,356 --> 00:28:37,716
Speaker 3: are not going to listen to what is popular, and

530
00:28:37,756 --> 00:28:41,916
Speaker 3: then twenty years later they're grown up and they decide

531
00:28:41,916 --> 00:28:45,316
Speaker 3: to listen to Chicago Transit Authority for the first time

532
00:28:45,396 --> 00:28:50,276
Speaker 3: and then give a reaction reaction videos, and they inevitably

533
00:28:50,356 --> 00:28:53,436
Speaker 3: ask if the horn players are part of the band,

534
00:28:54,596 --> 00:28:56,796
Speaker 3: you know, thinking that it's too big.

535
00:28:58,236 --> 00:28:59,876
Speaker 1: Or they are they even real horns?

536
00:28:59,956 --> 00:29:00,396
Speaker 5: Yeah?

537
00:29:00,516 --> 00:29:02,756
Speaker 3: Well, I mean they had to have been real horns

538
00:29:02,756 --> 00:29:05,516
Speaker 3: because there was no electronic instruments to be able to

539
00:29:05,516 --> 00:29:06,956
Speaker 3: play them back then, you.

540
00:29:06,916 --> 00:29:10,956
Speaker 4: Know, and again there was no competit narrative. We invented this,

541
00:29:11,356 --> 00:29:15,116
Speaker 4: you know, this approach became our signature.

542
00:29:15,636 --> 00:29:17,676
Speaker 1: It does remind me of times a little bit of

543
00:29:18,556 --> 00:29:21,796
Speaker 1: he didn't have a vocalist, but like the Mingas band sometimes,

544
00:29:22,236 --> 00:29:24,236
Speaker 1: were you guys influenced at all by Oh?

545
00:29:24,276 --> 00:29:24,876
Speaker 5: Absolutely?

546
00:29:25,236 --> 00:29:27,716
Speaker 4: I was a jazz guy, you know, and I brought

547
00:29:27,716 --> 00:29:32,196
Speaker 4: that to the table, and Lee was in his his bands.

548
00:29:32,636 --> 00:29:35,556
Speaker 5: I had my own quintet.

549
00:29:35,796 --> 00:29:39,556
Speaker 4: It was modeled after the Crusaders, if you will, canniball. Atterly,

550
00:29:40,276 --> 00:29:44,076
Speaker 4: we were doing jazz covers, you know, milestones, give Samba

551
00:29:44,156 --> 00:29:49,996
Speaker 4: about better Me and uh, our repertoire kind of evolved

552
00:29:50,156 --> 00:29:56,596
Speaker 4: into jazz rock funk. I started, uh, you know, experimenting

553
00:29:56,636 --> 00:30:01,676
Speaker 4: with more contemporary motifs. So when I when I became

554
00:30:01,796 --> 00:30:05,716
Speaker 4: part of the our thing, I started there and then

555
00:30:06,036 --> 00:30:10,076
Speaker 4: now a way, Uh, I have a vocal group to

556
00:30:10,196 --> 00:30:15,116
Speaker 4: work with, I have a rhythm section that is rock

557
00:30:15,156 --> 00:30:16,236
Speaker 4: and roll to work with.

558
00:30:16,316 --> 00:30:18,676
Speaker 5: I mean Terry kaz blew me away.

559
00:30:19,036 --> 00:30:23,356
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, he was brilliant and Terry couldn't

560
00:30:23,396 --> 00:30:28,236
Speaker 4: read music, so he helped me help him and vice versa.

561
00:30:28,756 --> 00:30:32,276
Speaker 4: I sat with him for hours because Introduction, which is

562
00:30:32,316 --> 00:30:36,356
Speaker 4: the first cut on Chicago. Transmittory is an incredibly intricate piece.

563
00:30:36,516 --> 00:30:40,236
Speaker 4: I mean there's every time signature and key change, and

564
00:30:40,356 --> 00:30:43,476
Speaker 4: I mean Terry was going for the throat, but he

565
00:30:43,916 --> 00:30:46,556
Speaker 4: didn't know how to put it on paper. He didn't

566
00:30:46,596 --> 00:30:49,236
Speaker 4: you know, he heard it, but he didn't write. He

567
00:30:49,236 --> 00:30:54,356
Speaker 4: couldn't write it, he couldn't read it. Yeah, so I

568
00:30:54,396 --> 00:30:56,676
Speaker 4: had to sit with him and Okay, this is a

569
00:30:56,716 --> 00:31:00,356
Speaker 4: B minor, this is an F sharp major, this is

570
00:31:00,436 --> 00:31:02,036
Speaker 4: a flat and fifth.

571
00:31:02,076 --> 00:31:04,876
Speaker 5: You know, I had to create a chord chart.

572
00:31:05,716 --> 00:31:10,236
Speaker 4: Only then could I arrange the song for the because

573
00:31:10,276 --> 00:31:14,516
Speaker 4: I needed a roadmap. And Terry, in sitting with me,

574
00:31:14,716 --> 00:31:19,556
Speaker 4: learned eventually how to read charts. And I learned how

575
00:31:19,596 --> 00:31:24,356
Speaker 4: to embrace rock and roll because I had been a

576
00:31:24,436 --> 00:31:27,796
Speaker 4: jazz guy. So working with Terry opened my brain up

577
00:31:27,836 --> 00:31:31,836
Speaker 4: to you know, guitar man, you know rock and roll.

578
00:31:31,996 --> 00:31:35,116
Speaker 5: This is awesome. I can put horns with this, this

579
00:31:35,196 --> 00:31:35,716
Speaker 5: is cool.

580
00:31:36,156 --> 00:31:39,356
Speaker 1: So do you remember meeting Terry for the first time?

581
00:31:40,036 --> 00:31:44,196
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was he Walt asked him to come over

582
00:31:44,236 --> 00:31:48,156
Speaker 4: to school to Paul to talk about their gig or

583
00:31:48,156 --> 00:31:51,076
Speaker 4: some shit. I don't I don't remember, but yeah, he

584
00:31:51,156 --> 00:31:53,516
Speaker 4: and Danny Canea de Paul and I met Terry.

585
00:31:53,756 --> 00:31:56,796
Speaker 1: To Paul, what was your first impression?

586
00:31:57,436 --> 00:31:59,796
Speaker 5: He was wild. He was wild.

587
00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:05,636
Speaker 4: You know. He had this kind of kangaroo jacket and

588
00:32:06,236 --> 00:32:11,476
Speaker 4: long blonde hair, and he was a big guy, big

589
00:32:12,036 --> 00:32:16,916
Speaker 4: sturdy Norwegian, and he was gruff, you know. And there

590
00:32:16,996 --> 00:32:23,036
Speaker 4: is something, you know, very cave man Terry, and you know,

591
00:32:23,116 --> 00:32:26,516
Speaker 4: I was immediately taken aback by it. You know, it

592
00:32:26,556 --> 00:32:29,916
Speaker 4: was like, oh, this guy is very interesting. Yeah. And

593
00:32:30,596 --> 00:32:31,636
Speaker 4: I heard him play.

594
00:32:32,556 --> 00:32:35,436
Speaker 5: It was like, holy shit, he was playing bass. Well,

595
00:32:35,476 --> 00:32:36,676
Speaker 5: he was playing bass.

596
00:32:37,036 --> 00:32:39,676
Speaker 4: I think it was before we were in Walt's basement

597
00:32:39,796 --> 00:32:43,116
Speaker 4: that I heard him playing guitar. Somewhere. I don't know,

598
00:32:43,476 --> 00:32:46,156
Speaker 4: maybe he was just horsing around. It might have been

599
00:32:47,316 --> 00:32:51,716
Speaker 4: the apartment he used to sit between custom speakers, you know,

600
00:32:51,836 --> 00:32:53,036
Speaker 4: those were his headphones.

601
00:32:54,476 --> 00:32:57,356
Speaker 5: It was and man.

602
00:32:57,476 --> 00:33:03,476
Speaker 4: But then when we first got together Walt's parents, I

603
00:33:03,556 --> 00:33:04,556
Speaker 4: really heard Terry.

604
00:33:05,356 --> 00:33:06,196
Speaker 5: My jaw dropped.

605
00:33:06,236 --> 00:33:10,236
Speaker 4: I mean, this guy was like, yeah, God, feel his

606
00:33:10,596 --> 00:33:14,916
Speaker 4: feel I mean he felt it in every inch of

607
00:33:14,956 --> 00:33:15,676
Speaker 4: his body.

608
00:33:16,476 --> 00:33:19,316
Speaker 5: And you know, you couldn't help but be.

609
00:33:22,796 --> 00:33:24,476
Speaker 1: But he's also a great rhythm player too.

610
00:33:24,716 --> 00:33:30,676
Speaker 5: Great rhythm player and single lead vocals sing the book. Yeah,

611
00:33:30,716 --> 00:33:31,436
Speaker 5: he did it all.

612
00:33:31,716 --> 00:33:34,996
Speaker 3: He did it all. I've never seen or heard anybody

613
00:33:34,996 --> 00:33:35,676
Speaker 3: who can do that.

614
00:33:36,276 --> 00:33:38,476
Speaker 1: And then what was your impression of Robert when you

615
00:33:38,476 --> 00:33:40,516
Speaker 1: met him? Do you remember meeting him for the first time.

616
00:33:41,236 --> 00:33:44,476
Speaker 3: I think Walt actually met Robert first. He went he

617
00:33:44,516 --> 00:33:49,076
Speaker 3: was he went to a club where was it Bobby Charles?

618
00:33:49,356 --> 00:33:51,756
Speaker 5: Bobby Charles and the Wanderers. The Wanderers.

619
00:33:52,196 --> 00:33:54,956
Speaker 4: It was at sub dive on the South Side, and

620
00:33:55,076 --> 00:34:01,996
Speaker 4: Robert was playing acoustic piano and Walt. Walt asked him

621
00:34:02,356 --> 00:34:05,556
Speaker 4: if you knew if he played B three Oregon because

622
00:34:05,556 --> 00:34:09,716
Speaker 4: we didn't have a bass player, and Walt was interested pedals.

623
00:34:10,036 --> 00:34:13,116
Speaker 4: To save money, man, maybe we could find an organ

624
00:34:13,116 --> 00:34:15,396
Speaker 4: player that could play the bass pedals on the organ

625
00:34:15,396 --> 00:34:17,516
Speaker 4: and we wouldn't have to pay a bass player.

626
00:34:18,556 --> 00:34:22,316
Speaker 5: And Roberts said, oh yeah, man, I play organ. Never

627
00:34:22,396 --> 00:34:23,356
Speaker 5: done in his life.

628
00:34:25,156 --> 00:34:28,356
Speaker 4: He immediately went out and bought I used them three

629
00:34:28,556 --> 00:34:32,636
Speaker 4: organ and started woodshedding at home, so when when we

630
00:34:32,716 --> 00:34:36,396
Speaker 4: got together, he could at least I.

631
00:34:36,356 --> 00:34:39,956
Speaker 3: Think we did that for about six months or so

632
00:34:40,076 --> 00:34:40,716
Speaker 3: before we.

633
00:34:40,956 --> 00:34:43,396
Speaker 1: Before we met Peter, and then you hired Peter. Do

634
00:34:43,476 --> 00:34:46,076
Speaker 1: you remember meeting Was he like a highre like you

635
00:34:46,116 --> 00:34:47,476
Speaker 1: went looking for a bass player?

636
00:34:47,516 --> 00:34:50,316
Speaker 3: He was leaving. He was in the process of leaving.

637
00:34:50,476 --> 00:34:54,676
Speaker 3: The exceptions that were that were like the drinking and

638
00:34:54,796 --> 00:34:58,836
Speaker 3: Cuddy was sort of They were a Top forty band.

639
00:34:58,916 --> 00:35:02,916
Speaker 3: They were everybody played forty five minutes, fifteen off. They

640
00:35:02,956 --> 00:35:06,716
Speaker 3: would take their fifteen minutes off and go backstage and

641
00:35:06,876 --> 00:35:10,836
Speaker 3: learn another song, another song, and then come out and

642
00:35:11,276 --> 00:35:14,196
Speaker 3: try it on the next set. Hell did they get

643
00:35:14,476 --> 00:35:16,516
Speaker 3: But they would sound exactly like the record.

644
00:35:17,076 --> 00:35:19,196
Speaker 5: Yeah. And they had.

645
00:35:19,156 --> 00:35:23,156
Speaker 4: Two amazing vocalists, Jimmy Vincent and Peter and they were

646
00:35:23,196 --> 00:35:26,716
Speaker 4: really they were like the thing, you know. They appeared

647
00:35:26,716 --> 00:35:30,356
Speaker 4: on local TV and they were probably one of the

648
00:35:31,316 --> 00:35:37,076
Speaker 4: most popular club acts in the Midwest at that time.

649
00:35:37,756 --> 00:35:40,476
Speaker 4: We were at that time, we were beginning to get

650
00:35:40,516 --> 00:35:45,876
Speaker 4: fired from these clubs because we started discovering our own voice,

651
00:35:46,796 --> 00:35:51,196
Speaker 4: particularly particularly Robert Lamb, who started bringing original material into

652
00:35:51,236 --> 00:35:55,516
Speaker 4: the band, and we'd start trying those songs out at clubs,

653
00:35:55,876 --> 00:35:58,796
Speaker 4: and no sooner we do that, the club owners would

654
00:35:59,156 --> 00:36:01,996
Speaker 4: would come to us and say, hey, you play that stuff,

655
00:36:02,196 --> 00:36:04,756
Speaker 4: You're out of here. I want Top forty. That's what

656
00:36:04,796 --> 00:36:08,156
Speaker 4: my customers want to come to hear. And so we

657
00:36:08,276 --> 00:36:10,636
Speaker 4: either had to dick to the Top forty or get

658
00:36:10,636 --> 00:36:13,516
Speaker 4: fired and we started fired.

659
00:36:14,716 --> 00:36:16,436
Speaker 1: This sort of set a pattern for the rest of

660
00:36:16,476 --> 00:36:16,956
Speaker 1: your career.

661
00:36:17,556 --> 00:36:20,796
Speaker 3: Not only that, we set a pattern for the type

662
00:36:20,796 --> 00:36:23,476
Speaker 3: of stuff that we were doing, and the and the

663
00:36:23,516 --> 00:36:27,396
Speaker 3: way we were feeling about life, and some of the

664
00:36:27,436 --> 00:36:30,476
Speaker 3: illegal things that we were doing on our fifteen minute breaks.

665
00:36:30,476 --> 00:36:33,156
Speaker 3: As opposed to having a drink with the boys, we

666
00:36:33,156 --> 00:36:35,436
Speaker 3: were going out and yeeling smoking a joint instead.

667
00:36:35,676 --> 00:36:37,996
Speaker 1: You weren't learning a song, so we were, but we.

668
00:36:37,876 --> 00:36:40,636
Speaker 3: Were taking that drinking audience we weren't doing in a

669
00:36:40,676 --> 00:36:43,756
Speaker 3: new song, and we would take that drinking new audience

670
00:36:43,876 --> 00:36:46,756
Speaker 3: away to come and listen to us. And that's what

671
00:36:46,916 --> 00:36:50,196
Speaker 3: became interesting for Setara to come and hear us.

672
00:36:50,436 --> 00:36:52,956
Speaker 5: Well here's the deal man. Yeah, there were, you know,

673
00:36:53,116 --> 00:36:53,676
Speaker 5: no scenery.

674
00:36:53,716 --> 00:36:58,716
Speaker 4: We started getting fired from these typical nightclubs. A club

675
00:36:58,756 --> 00:37:04,596
Speaker 4: opened on Rush Street called Barnaby's that actually encouraged new stuff.

676
00:37:05,516 --> 00:37:08,556
Speaker 5: You know. They it was wow, Okay, this is what

677
00:37:08,596 --> 00:37:09,516
Speaker 5: we've been looking for.

678
00:37:10,276 --> 00:37:13,156
Speaker 4: And we got a gig at Barnaby's and we could

679
00:37:13,196 --> 00:37:15,636
Speaker 4: do they they loved it. We could do our thing.

680
00:37:15,916 --> 00:37:20,876
Speaker 4: We were doing expanded arrangements of hit songs. There was

681
00:37:20,916 --> 00:37:25,596
Speaker 4: a group called Vanilla Fudge. They inspired that as well.

682
00:37:26,156 --> 00:37:32,356
Speaker 4: They do you know, extended versions with alternate chord changes,

683
00:37:32,756 --> 00:37:36,356
Speaker 4: and you know, so we started doing that and then

684
00:37:36,596 --> 00:37:41,596
Speaker 4: and then that evolved into completely original material, which we

685
00:37:41,596 --> 00:37:47,076
Speaker 4: were able to do at Barnaby's. One engagement at Barnabys,

686
00:37:47,116 --> 00:37:51,356
Speaker 4: we were an opening act for The Exceptions. Peter se

687
00:37:51,476 --> 00:37:55,476
Speaker 4: Tera and the Exceptions were the headliner. And he heard

688
00:37:55,556 --> 00:37:58,916
Speaker 4: us doing these beetle covers. He was a huge Beatles fan.

689
00:37:59,236 --> 00:38:02,516
Speaker 4: He heard us doing Magical Mystery tour and got to

690
00:38:02,556 --> 00:38:05,356
Speaker 4: get you in my life and it blew him away.

691
00:38:06,876 --> 00:38:08,476
Speaker 5: Next thing, you know, he was in the band.

692
00:38:08,956 --> 00:38:10,996
Speaker 1: And then how soon after that did you leave for

693
00:38:11,996 --> 00:38:12,916
Speaker 1: Los Angeles?

694
00:38:13,196 --> 00:38:17,716
Speaker 4: All of it started in February of sixty eight and

695
00:38:17,756 --> 00:38:21,836
Speaker 4: in June sixty seven, I'm sorry, And in June of

696
00:38:21,876 --> 00:38:25,436
Speaker 4: sixty eight we headed to California, So a year and

697
00:38:25,436 --> 00:38:25,916
Speaker 4: a half.

698
00:38:26,676 --> 00:38:29,956
Speaker 1: And you also did you tour with Janis Choplin? Why

699
00:38:29,956 --> 00:38:30,436
Speaker 1: have that rank?

700
00:38:30,556 --> 00:38:33,956
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, we met her at the Fillmore West and

701
00:38:34,356 --> 00:38:37,596
Speaker 4: along we also we opened for Jimmy Hendrix. We were

702
00:38:37,596 --> 00:38:40,436
Speaker 4: at the Whiskey a Go Go It' Sunset Strip. We

703
00:38:40,436 --> 00:38:44,636
Speaker 4: were opening for Albert King and we were in the

704
00:38:44,676 --> 00:38:47,716
Speaker 4: dressing room waiting to go back on and there was

705
00:38:47,716 --> 00:38:50,116
Speaker 4: a knock on the door and we opened the door

706
00:38:50,796 --> 00:38:54,636
Speaker 4: and Hendrix is standing there and we're going, whoa is.

707
00:38:54,596 --> 00:38:55,556
Speaker 5: That Jimmy Hendricks?

708
00:38:55,596 --> 00:38:57,196
Speaker 1: You know, and you knew his stuff?

709
00:38:57,636 --> 00:38:59,996
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, oh he was.

710
00:39:00,436 --> 00:39:04,476
Speaker 3: I was playing like Jimmy Hendrix before we heard Jimmy Hendrix.

711
00:39:04,596 --> 00:39:06,356
Speaker 5: Yeah, we were. In fact, we were doing his cover.

712
00:39:06,476 --> 00:39:08,836
Speaker 4: We were in Fox the Lady in Purple Heads, in

713
00:39:08,876 --> 00:39:12,876
Speaker 4: our in our set, and Hendricks heard him. And before

714
00:39:12,916 --> 00:39:14,876
Speaker 4: we went back, I say, he came to the dressing

715
00:39:14,956 --> 00:39:18,156
Speaker 4: room he said, you guys have a guitar player that's

716
00:39:18,196 --> 00:39:20,676
Speaker 4: better than me and a horn section that sounds like

717
00:39:20,716 --> 00:39:21,676
Speaker 4: one set of lungs.

718
00:39:21,796 --> 00:39:26,676
Speaker 5: Do you guys want to go on the road? Fuck? Yeah.

719
00:39:26,996 --> 00:39:29,916
Speaker 4: And next thing you know, we opened for his summer tour.

720
00:39:29,956 --> 00:39:32,956
Speaker 4: We were the opening acting for him.

721
00:39:33,076 --> 00:39:35,076
Speaker 3: It was at the end of his career and the

722
00:39:35,196 --> 00:39:38,036
Speaker 3: end of Genesis, but it was our foot in the

723
00:39:38,076 --> 00:39:41,156
Speaker 3: door to the business. We never took our foot out

724
00:39:41,156 --> 00:39:41,716
Speaker 3: of the door.

725
00:39:41,996 --> 00:39:44,316
Speaker 1: What was he like to tour with?

726
00:39:44,876 --> 00:39:49,636
Speaker 4: He was very introspective, very shy, quiet, And it was

727
00:39:49,676 --> 00:39:54,196
Speaker 4: funny because you know, we traveled together. Terry was nervous

728
00:39:54,196 --> 00:39:57,276
Speaker 4: around him, and he was nervous around Terry. You know,

729
00:39:57,396 --> 00:40:00,476
Speaker 4: he didn't know how to approach each other. Eventually they

730
00:40:00,516 --> 00:40:03,476
Speaker 4: got comfortable and they started trading ideas.

731
00:40:03,676 --> 00:40:06,916
Speaker 3: And you know, Terry would love to have played with him.

732
00:40:07,036 --> 00:40:10,796
Speaker 3: He would have joined Jimmy. Hendry expand in a flash

733
00:40:11,156 --> 00:40:11,836
Speaker 3: and left us.

734
00:40:12,276 --> 00:40:17,276
Speaker 4: See you guys, well we were there was actually some

735
00:40:17,796 --> 00:40:21,716
Speaker 4: chatter amongst us about maybe doing a project together with

736
00:40:21,836 --> 00:40:25,396
Speaker 4: him with Jimmy, and of course he left us too early,

737
00:40:25,596 --> 00:40:27,516
Speaker 4: and then Terry left us too early.

738
00:40:28,436 --> 00:40:30,956
Speaker 1: He also and maybe it was Walt who told the

739
00:40:30,956 --> 00:40:35,196
Speaker 1: story that he was telling you how he felt tremendous

740
00:40:35,236 --> 00:40:40,156
Speaker 1: pressure to have another hit and that he was finding Hendrick. Yeah,

741
00:40:40,196 --> 00:40:42,516
Speaker 1: he was finding it very hard to probably.

742
00:40:42,716 --> 00:40:44,956
Speaker 3: I mean that's that sort of goes along with the

743
00:40:45,436 --> 00:40:48,676
Speaker 3: business itself. You know, it's always what have you done lately?

744
00:40:49,196 --> 00:40:52,076
Speaker 1: Yeah, you just don't think that would apply to Jimmy Hendrix.

745
00:40:52,716 --> 00:40:56,996
Speaker 3: It applies to everyone who's ever picked up an instrument.

746
00:40:58,356 --> 00:41:01,356
Speaker 4: I forget which artist it was. I think Joni Mitchell,

747
00:41:01,396 --> 00:41:05,716
Speaker 4: You're only as good as your last hit. How quickly

748
00:41:05,756 --> 00:41:09,956
Speaker 4: did they forget? Almost infinitely. That's another reason that this

749
00:41:10,276 --> 00:41:15,036
Speaker 4: Journey of ours is such a phenomenon, because these songs

750
00:41:15,076 --> 00:41:20,876
Speaker 4: broke that mold. These songs have become timeless, these songs

751
00:41:21,316 --> 00:41:24,396
Speaker 4: we are along for the ride. We're just blessed with

752
00:41:24,476 --> 00:41:27,436
Speaker 4: this ride that this music has given us.

753
00:41:27,516 --> 00:41:30,676
Speaker 1: Do you think it's the songs those yeah, Oh.

754
00:41:30,556 --> 00:41:33,596
Speaker 4: My gosh, yes, I mean these songs and we hear

755
00:41:33,636 --> 00:41:38,276
Speaker 4: it every night. These songs have become fabrics of lives, soundtracks.

756
00:41:38,516 --> 00:41:41,436
Speaker 4: These people are in there, they're singing louder in the band.

757
00:41:41,596 --> 00:41:46,836
Speaker 4: It's like it's a communion. Little did we know. I mean,

758
00:41:46,876 --> 00:41:51,236
Speaker 4: we are so blessed to have this phenomenon occur that

759
00:41:51,436 --> 00:41:53,396
Speaker 4: never would have occurred to us.

760
00:41:53,836 --> 00:41:57,476
Speaker 1: But now the music business as opposed to the fans.

761
00:41:58,196 --> 00:41:59,996
Speaker 1: You know, you found out at some point you didn't

762
00:42:00,036 --> 00:42:03,356
Speaker 1: have publishing. Wasn't that right, You didn't have publishing rights.

763
00:42:04,276 --> 00:42:08,956
Speaker 3: Oh no, Gercil took the publisher rights. So I mean,

764
00:42:08,996 --> 00:42:12,636
Speaker 3: I prefer not to talk about him anymore. Yeah, he

765
00:42:13,836 --> 00:42:16,156
Speaker 3: enough already, so he discovered us, thank you.

766
00:42:16,356 --> 00:42:17,476
Speaker 5: Yeah.

767
00:42:17,476 --> 00:42:22,076
Speaker 1: But then, but then Columbia dropped you after you made

768
00:42:22,076 --> 00:42:25,396
Speaker 1: them just a gigantic stack of money.

769
00:42:25,596 --> 00:42:29,116
Speaker 4: Well, we made him a stack of money. But at

770
00:42:29,116 --> 00:42:31,756
Speaker 4: the time they dropped us, we were managed by a

771
00:42:31,836 --> 00:42:36,676
Speaker 4: guy that made a deal that they couldn't refuse.

772
00:42:37,116 --> 00:42:38,636
Speaker 5: And Walter yet Nikoff.

773
00:42:40,236 --> 00:42:43,476
Speaker 4: Agreed to the deal, and they realized after they went

774
00:42:43,516 --> 00:42:46,156
Speaker 4: back to New York that they had just screwed themselves

775
00:42:46,236 --> 00:42:50,236
Speaker 4: because they offered us way more than they thought we

776
00:42:50,236 --> 00:42:50,756
Speaker 4: were worth.

777
00:42:51,236 --> 00:42:53,276
Speaker 5: They were never going to come up and they were

778
00:42:53,316 --> 00:42:54,116
Speaker 5: never going to recover.

779
00:42:55,036 --> 00:42:57,636
Speaker 4: So they, you know, they let us go, and they

780
00:42:57,716 --> 00:43:02,396
Speaker 4: released everything they had over and over, repackage, repackaged.

781
00:43:02,836 --> 00:43:05,276
Speaker 3: And started saying that we were done. Yeah, you know,

782
00:43:05,836 --> 00:43:09,356
Speaker 3: we weren't done, but you know, so Irving Azoff picked

783
00:43:09,396 --> 00:43:12,076
Speaker 3: us up and put us on Full Moon Records, and

784
00:43:12,756 --> 00:43:16,116
Speaker 3: not a bad guy to pick you up. Another historical thing,

785
00:43:16,596 --> 00:43:17,116
Speaker 3: just going.

786
00:43:16,996 --> 00:43:19,756
Speaker 1: Back to that first album, how how long after you'd

787
00:43:19,796 --> 00:43:23,236
Speaker 1: been in LA did you record your Chicrgo Transit Authority?

788
00:43:23,276 --> 00:43:26,396
Speaker 4: Six months we got to LA and June sixty eight.

789
00:43:26,516 --> 00:43:29,916
Speaker 4: We were in New York in January sixty nine beginning

790
00:43:29,956 --> 00:43:32,436
Speaker 4: the recording of Chicago Transit Authority.

791
00:43:32,436 --> 00:43:34,276
Speaker 1: And now that was your first record deal. Columbia was a

792
00:43:34,316 --> 00:43:37,956
Speaker 1: little nervous, but you insisted on a double album. I'm

793
00:43:37,996 --> 00:43:38,796
Speaker 1: fascinated by that.

794
00:43:38,916 --> 00:43:43,556
Speaker 4: Well, we we as a band realized that these cuts

795
00:43:43,596 --> 00:43:48,356
Speaker 4: were longer cuts if we had done and Gercio completely

796
00:43:48,396 --> 00:43:53,156
Speaker 4: agreed and supported our vision here. We couldn't have captured

797
00:43:53,636 --> 00:43:58,236
Speaker 4: full picture this music with one disc, and he tried

798
00:43:58,276 --> 00:44:03,036
Speaker 4: to convince Clive Davis of that, and Class said, you

799
00:44:03,076 --> 00:44:07,636
Speaker 4: know budget before you know, our budget doesn't allow that

800
00:44:07,716 --> 00:44:11,796
Speaker 4: for a new artist. Of course, it was the right decision, Yeah,

801
00:44:11,996 --> 00:44:16,436
Speaker 4: and every The next two albums were also double albums

802
00:44:16,796 --> 00:44:23,076
Speaker 4: because Columbia realized that it was necessary.

803
00:44:22,836 --> 00:44:24,956
Speaker 2: One last break and were back with Lee, Lock Nane

804
00:44:25,076 --> 00:44:33,276
Speaker 2: and Jimmy Panko. My introduction to you was from my

805
00:44:33,356 --> 00:44:37,836
Speaker 2: brother David, who was a trumpet player, and he brought

806
00:44:37,876 --> 00:44:40,276
Speaker 2: home the Carnegie Hall record.

807
00:44:40,796 --> 00:44:43,636
Speaker 1: Now, I know you don't like the sound the fourth album.

808
00:44:43,716 --> 00:44:44,596
Speaker 1: That was the fourth album.

809
00:44:44,676 --> 00:44:46,356
Speaker 3: That was the best they could do at the time,

810
00:44:46,436 --> 00:44:49,436
Speaker 3: And I didn't realize that until fifty years later when

811
00:44:49,516 --> 00:44:50,156
Speaker 3: I did it.

812
00:44:50,356 --> 00:44:55,356
Speaker 4: When I Lee did a remaster that is brilliant. Really Yeah,

813
00:44:55,716 --> 00:44:59,236
Speaker 4: He and an engineer took it into his studio and

814
00:44:59,996 --> 00:45:01,556
Speaker 4: gave it the digital.

815
00:45:01,316 --> 00:45:06,476
Speaker 3: Ten months later. But we had to take away all

816
00:45:06,516 --> 00:45:10,836
Speaker 3: of the noise and electronics and everything just to get

817
00:45:11,156 --> 00:45:15,676
Speaker 3: down to the instruments. And then we edited that to

818
00:45:15,756 --> 00:45:20,796
Speaker 3: get as much of the sound of Carnegie Hall out

819
00:45:20,836 --> 00:45:27,236
Speaker 3: of it, so we would delete everything up to the

820
00:45:27,276 --> 00:45:32,356
Speaker 3: whatever horn or voice it was, and then fade into

821
00:45:32,396 --> 00:45:38,916
Speaker 3: that note, let the note play finish, and then fade

822
00:45:38,956 --> 00:45:42,356
Speaker 3: out of it. And we did that for each instrument,

823
00:45:42,796 --> 00:45:47,436
Speaker 3: every drum, every well. Actually the drums were easier because

824
00:45:47,476 --> 00:45:50,716
Speaker 3: you can put gates on those, but also to build

825
00:45:50,756 --> 00:45:54,396
Speaker 3: up the sound of the drums, Tim Jessup, the engineer,

826
00:45:56,116 --> 00:46:01,116
Speaker 3: put together a drum sound, probably like ten tracks of drums,

827
00:46:01,396 --> 00:46:05,276
Speaker 3: but anyway, yeah, he built he built a drum sound.

828
00:46:05,956 --> 00:46:08,196
Speaker 3: So by the time we finished, we were able to

829
00:46:08,236 --> 00:46:11,676
Speaker 3: move the music forward as though you were sitting.

830
00:46:11,516 --> 00:46:12,196
Speaker 5: In the audience.

831
00:46:12,236 --> 00:46:14,796
Speaker 4: And for me it being the arranger, it was a

832
00:46:14,796 --> 00:46:18,156
Speaker 4: blessing me because my beef with Carnegie Hall, and again

833
00:46:18,236 --> 00:46:21,916
Speaker 4: it was lack of technology. That's what we had. Oh yeah,

834
00:46:21,956 --> 00:46:25,596
Speaker 4: and the horns. I couldn't listen to. The horns sounded

835
00:46:25,636 --> 00:46:30,156
Speaker 4: like kazoos. It wasn't our sound. It wasn't our big sound.

836
00:46:30,396 --> 00:46:32,796
Speaker 4: And Lee brought that back.

837
00:46:33,076 --> 00:46:34,956
Speaker 1: But now most people the Carnegie Hall is considered it

838
00:46:35,036 --> 00:46:39,636
Speaker 1: the greatest acoustics at least in the world. What was

839
00:46:39,676 --> 00:46:42,516
Speaker 1: the issue, just the way it was, Mike, No, no, no, it's.

840
00:46:42,556 --> 00:46:43,156
Speaker 5: Rock and roll.

841
00:46:43,316 --> 00:46:47,396
Speaker 3: It's a Cardigie Hall is built for acoustic music. That's

842
00:46:47,436 --> 00:46:52,156
Speaker 3: the difference. And if you put amplema, it's just you

843
00:46:52,236 --> 00:46:55,196
Speaker 3: can probably still hear some of the notes now towards

844
00:46:55,716 --> 00:46:58,076
Speaker 3: the building I here Chicago.

845
00:46:58,156 --> 00:46:58,236
Speaker 4: That.

846
00:46:59,836 --> 00:47:00,796
Speaker 5: Nineteen seventy one.

847
00:47:01,156 --> 00:47:03,796
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's still when when I sit in my chair,

848
00:47:03,836 --> 00:47:06,116
Speaker 1: I screened a little of the sound out. So but

849
00:47:06,236 --> 00:47:10,956
Speaker 1: tell me about it's such a an amazing piece of music.

850
00:47:11,196 --> 00:47:14,876
Speaker 1: The ballet. It's got seven it's got seven parts make

851
00:47:14,956 --> 00:47:18,036
Speaker 1: Me Smile. I think it as at least two key

852
00:47:18,156 --> 00:47:21,036
Speaker 1: changes in it. And I'm not going to talk about

853
00:47:21,036 --> 00:47:24,476
Speaker 1: make Me Smile because I will encourage people listening to

854
00:47:24,556 --> 00:47:30,996
Speaker 1: go to YouTube to you know. Rick Biatto did a

855
00:47:31,076 --> 00:47:34,436
Speaker 1: wonderful did a wonderful breakdown of that song.

856
00:47:34,676 --> 00:47:35,396
Speaker 5: He's amazing.

857
00:47:35,436 --> 00:47:37,876
Speaker 1: He's got yeah, no, he's.

858
00:47:38,676 --> 00:47:41,316
Speaker 5: I try to catch all his breakdowns. He does a

859
00:47:41,316 --> 00:47:41,636
Speaker 5: lot of it.

860
00:47:41,956 --> 00:47:44,036
Speaker 1: He's done. He's done great ones, but I think yours

861
00:47:44,076 --> 00:47:44,636
Speaker 1: is one of the best.

862
00:47:44,676 --> 00:47:46,396
Speaker 5: He's an amazing musicologist.

863
00:47:46,556 --> 00:47:49,156
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he really is. And he does a fabulous

864
00:47:49,196 --> 00:47:52,076
Speaker 1: breakdown of make Me Smile, and you can hear all

865
00:47:52,076 --> 00:47:55,196
Speaker 1: the parts, and it's it's just a blast. But then

866
00:47:55,236 --> 00:47:59,636
Speaker 1: there's so much to say anxiety's moments, and then there's

867
00:47:59,676 --> 00:48:06,556
Speaker 1: the West Virginia Fantasies, which features you Lee on trumpet

868
00:48:06,676 --> 00:48:09,036
Speaker 1: beautiful beautiful trumpet line.

869
00:48:09,196 --> 00:48:12,196
Speaker 3: I never learned what any of those names, because.

870
00:48:14,276 --> 00:48:17,556
Speaker 1: Well, you know the part where you're playing beautiful trumpet parts,

871
00:48:18,756 --> 00:48:19,596
Speaker 1: that's what it's called.

872
00:48:20,636 --> 00:48:21,196
Speaker 5: I love that.

873
00:48:21,316 --> 00:48:24,236
Speaker 4: I mean, I come from it the other night because

874
00:48:24,476 --> 00:48:28,436
Speaker 4: I had a clip for a performance and when we're

875
00:48:28,476 --> 00:48:30,836
Speaker 4: when we're on stage, gig it, I can't hear a

876
00:48:30,836 --> 00:48:32,796
Speaker 4: lot of the nuances because there's so much going on

877
00:48:32,836 --> 00:48:33,436
Speaker 4: in my ears.

878
00:48:33,756 --> 00:48:36,036
Speaker 5: And I heard that piece very.

879
00:48:35,836 --> 00:48:40,156
Speaker 4: Clearly, and your tone on that thing is so nice

880
00:48:40,356 --> 00:48:44,116
Speaker 4: because I had never heard it on stage.

881
00:48:44,516 --> 00:48:47,596
Speaker 1: And then there's the beautiful counterpart where Walter would come

882
00:48:47,636 --> 00:48:50,236
Speaker 1: in on that was was that all written out? Was

883
00:48:50,276 --> 00:48:51,996
Speaker 1: any of this written over?

884
00:48:52,276 --> 00:48:53,396
Speaker 5: Every note was written out?

885
00:48:53,756 --> 00:48:57,356
Speaker 4: When I wrote the ballet, I just approached it as

886
00:48:57,396 --> 00:48:58,596
Speaker 4: a multi movement piece.

887
00:48:59,076 --> 00:49:02,196
Speaker 5: You know, you're still writing it. When we were recording in.

888
00:49:02,156 --> 00:49:04,716
Speaker 1: The Chicago, did you did you have a like a

889
00:49:05,036 --> 00:49:07,996
Speaker 1: classical piece of music you had in mind as a model.

890
00:49:08,076 --> 00:49:13,676
Speaker 4: Not necessarily, but I wanted to create as a peon

891
00:49:13,876 --> 00:49:16,516
Speaker 4: perhaps to the great classic composers.

892
00:49:17,076 --> 00:49:19,436
Speaker 5: Hey, why can't we do this? And you know rock

893
00:49:19,516 --> 00:49:19,916
Speaker 5: and roll?

894
00:49:19,996 --> 00:49:24,476
Speaker 4: You know, so I just wrote an extended piece and

895
00:49:24,756 --> 00:49:28,116
Speaker 4: one movement evolved into another, into another. But I didn't

896
00:49:28,196 --> 00:49:32,996
Speaker 4: have anything titled in movements. That was Gercio's idea, said Jimmy,

897
00:49:33,556 --> 00:49:37,476
Speaker 4: let's title each one of those departures, each one of

898
00:49:37,476 --> 00:49:43,236
Speaker 4: those segues. So we have actual titles on these movements,

899
00:49:43,996 --> 00:49:48,276
Speaker 4: and we wind up with a almost a mini symphony

900
00:49:48,836 --> 00:49:49,676
Speaker 4: kind of approach.

901
00:49:50,436 --> 00:49:50,636
Speaker 5: Well.

902
00:49:50,676 --> 00:49:58,796
Speaker 3: Also, the business, the studios and record companies were allowing

903
00:49:59,236 --> 00:50:04,476
Speaker 3: unlimited copyrights at that time, and within a few years

904
00:50:04,596 --> 00:50:07,876
Speaker 3: after that they cut it down to just ten copyrights

905
00:50:07,956 --> 00:50:12,716
Speaker 3: on a record completely changed writers in the record business

906
00:50:13,156 --> 00:50:16,556
Speaker 3: because they didn't want to share. Once you had ten

907
00:50:16,636 --> 00:50:19,196
Speaker 3: songs on a record, you wrote the eleven song, that

908
00:50:19,316 --> 00:50:22,796
Speaker 3: the writers would have to start sharing their royalties. They

909
00:50:22,836 --> 00:50:26,036
Speaker 3: didn't want to be doing that, so it completely changed

910
00:50:26,276 --> 00:50:26,876
Speaker 3: their writing.

911
00:50:27,236 --> 00:50:30,156
Speaker 4: And I could get nasty here, but I'm not going to.

912
00:50:30,476 --> 00:50:31,316
Speaker 4: I'm Christian.

913
00:50:32,476 --> 00:50:35,076
Speaker 5: Hey, more titles, more publishing.

914
00:50:35,156 --> 00:50:39,196
Speaker 3: Well that's what that's where I was leading. But so anyway,

915
00:50:39,476 --> 00:50:43,556
Speaker 3: the greed changes everything. So we were just playing music

916
00:50:43,596 --> 00:50:46,596
Speaker 3: and writing music, and that's what we loved. Still to

917
00:50:46,636 --> 00:50:47,436
Speaker 3: this day.

918
00:50:48,356 --> 00:50:49,876
Speaker 5: I had been listening to Bach.

919
00:50:51,956 --> 00:50:55,196
Speaker 4: I am totally a fan of Johann Bach, I mean,

920
00:50:56,636 --> 00:51:01,316
Speaker 4: arguably the most perfect voicer in the history of music.

921
00:51:01,476 --> 00:51:08,836
Speaker 4: I mean his voicing and his intervals were perfect. He

922
00:51:08,996 --> 00:51:12,876
Speaker 4: was the template in music theory. Bach was a perfectionist,

923
00:51:12,956 --> 00:51:19,836
Speaker 4: but Bach also cooked. Bach grooved. So here's this perfectionist

924
00:51:20,196 --> 00:51:24,196
Speaker 4: that had an amazing feel as well. And I was

925
00:51:24,236 --> 00:51:28,756
Speaker 4: listening to the Brandenburg Concertos. I got absorbed in how

926
00:51:28,756 --> 00:51:29,516
Speaker 4: did he do this?

927
00:51:29,756 --> 00:51:32,916
Speaker 5: How did he do this? It totally drew me in. Well.

928
00:51:33,356 --> 00:51:36,276
Speaker 4: That inspired me to sit at a piano and start

929
00:51:36,316 --> 00:51:39,516
Speaker 4: fooling around with our peggios. Do do do do Do

930
00:51:39,516 --> 00:51:43,316
Speaker 4: Do Do Do Do do a La Bach and Color

931
00:51:43,316 --> 00:51:48,316
Speaker 4: of My World was directly inspired by the Brandenburg Concertos.

932
00:51:48,356 --> 00:51:56,676
Speaker 4: It's a twelve bar turnaround of major sevens and minor sevens.

933
00:51:57,116 --> 00:52:01,396
Speaker 4: It's around and I put a vocal over it and

934
00:52:01,396 --> 00:52:02,676
Speaker 4: then a flute so over it.

935
00:52:03,556 --> 00:52:07,436
Speaker 1: Wow, it's just amazing. But the changes in it are very,

936
00:52:07,516 --> 00:52:12,556
Speaker 1: very interesting. They're not they're all relative.

937
00:52:12,596 --> 00:52:16,316
Speaker 4: There's a note in each major seven chord that that

938
00:52:16,476 --> 00:52:20,116
Speaker 4: sets up the next major seven or minor seven chord,

939
00:52:21,596 --> 00:52:22,756
Speaker 4: so they're they're.

940
00:52:22,556 --> 00:52:24,996
Speaker 1: Always using common notes to create the.

941
00:52:25,196 --> 00:52:27,156
Speaker 4: Yeah do do do do do do do do do

942
00:52:27,356 --> 00:52:28,876
Speaker 4: do do do do Do.

943
00:52:29,556 --> 00:52:31,716
Speaker 5: I only changed the F T an A to.

944
00:52:31,756 --> 00:52:35,076
Speaker 4: Make it an A minor seven from an F major

945
00:52:35,156 --> 00:52:37,196
Speaker 4: to an A writer, so they're relative.

946
00:52:37,316 --> 00:52:39,036
Speaker 5: All the chords are relative, but they.

947
00:52:38,956 --> 00:52:42,716
Speaker 1: Flow, They flow beautiful, so it's not diatonic. It's not no,

948
00:52:42,876 --> 00:52:45,756
Speaker 1: but it's but it has that you use the common

949
00:52:45,796 --> 00:52:50,076
Speaker 1: tones to keep it exactly well. The whole thing is

950
00:52:51,596 --> 00:52:52,196
Speaker 1: just amazing.

951
00:52:52,516 --> 00:52:53,476
Speaker 5: Thank you now.

952
00:52:53,516 --> 00:52:55,716
Speaker 1: But Lee, it took you a little longer to become

953
00:52:55,756 --> 00:52:56,076
Speaker 1: a writer.

954
00:52:56,996 --> 00:53:00,436
Speaker 3: Yeah, and these guys were already writers. I came in

955
00:53:00,516 --> 00:53:03,036
Speaker 3: with call on Me, you want to listen to my song?

956
00:53:03,396 --> 00:53:07,516
Speaker 3: So I had my little cassette put it in and had.

957
00:53:07,396 --> 00:53:09,676
Speaker 1: You presented a lot of songs before call on Me.

958
00:53:09,796 --> 00:53:13,716
Speaker 3: This was my first song wow, that I presented, and

959
00:53:14,036 --> 00:53:16,156
Speaker 3: I had to say though, you came out with a bang.

960
00:53:16,436 --> 00:53:20,476
Speaker 3: Came out with a bang, and Sata decided to sing

961
00:53:20,556 --> 00:53:24,796
Speaker 3: it and became a hit. It did come in still

962
00:53:24,996 --> 00:53:29,516
Speaker 3: hit today. It's going to be on this fiftieth anniversary album, so.

963
00:53:29,916 --> 00:53:31,596
Speaker 1: It's pretty cool as it should be.

964
00:53:31,876 --> 00:53:34,556
Speaker 3: And it was on the Chicago seven and then The

965
00:53:34,596 --> 00:53:37,996
Speaker 3: Greatest Hits, which we initially thought was going to be

966
00:53:38,116 --> 00:53:43,036
Speaker 3: our last album, because once you do the Greatest hits. Historically,

967
00:53:43,556 --> 00:53:46,196
Speaker 3: most bands are history after that.

968
00:53:46,436 --> 00:53:47,996
Speaker 1: And did you think that was And it was that

969
00:53:48,036 --> 00:53:49,756
Speaker 1: around the time that Terry died.

970
00:53:49,796 --> 00:53:54,196
Speaker 3: Or Terry died shortly after that, but it was something

971
00:53:54,236 --> 00:53:56,476
Speaker 3: that was going on, so it did enter our hits.

972
00:53:56,996 --> 00:53:59,876
Speaker 3: But we just kept playing music. We just kept playing

973
00:53:59,876 --> 00:54:00,476
Speaker 3: our shows.

974
00:54:00,716 --> 00:54:02,796
Speaker 1: So there wasn't a There wasn't a point you thought

975
00:54:02,956 --> 00:54:04,076
Speaker 1: it's been a ten year run.

976
00:54:05,556 --> 00:54:08,836
Speaker 3: No, because we kept working. We were interested in playing.

977
00:54:09,116 --> 00:54:13,076
Speaker 3: He was four audiences. We loved playing for live audiences. Yeah,

978
00:54:13,116 --> 00:54:14,196
Speaker 3: and you still do today.

979
00:54:14,236 --> 00:54:17,116
Speaker 1: But even after Terry died, did you feel was there

980
00:54:17,156 --> 00:54:19,796
Speaker 1: a moment you felt like we can't do this? He

981
00:54:19,876 --> 00:54:22,716
Speaker 1: was such a he was such a huge force.

982
00:54:23,156 --> 00:54:25,676
Speaker 3: Not a matter I can't but he was the leader

983
00:54:25,716 --> 00:54:28,276
Speaker 3: at the time, and we had to decide that we

984
00:54:28,316 --> 00:54:31,836
Speaker 3: are still together. He would want us to keep going,

985
00:54:32,796 --> 00:54:33,996
Speaker 3: So let's do that.

986
00:54:34,116 --> 00:54:34,356
Speaker 5: Yep.

987
00:54:34,956 --> 00:54:37,396
Speaker 1: I'm only halfway through my questions and we're out of time,

988
00:54:38,236 --> 00:54:40,436
Speaker 1: So you're gonna You're gonna come back at some point.

989
00:54:40,476 --> 00:54:43,156
Speaker 1: We're gonna keep going. Yeah, man, this has been.

990
00:54:43,116 --> 00:54:48,316
Speaker 5: There won't be sixty more years though, right planning?

991
00:54:48,476 --> 00:54:50,876
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'll be you'll be talking to uh if my

992
00:54:50,956 --> 00:54:52,836
Speaker 1: brain's in a jar. That's all you'll be talking to.

993
00:54:53,396 --> 00:54:55,956
Speaker 1: It's been a huge honor. Thank you so much.

994
00:54:56,716 --> 00:54:56,956
Speaker 5: Honor.

995
00:54:59,836 --> 00:55:02,116
Speaker 2: An episode description, you'll find a link to our favorite

996
00:55:02,156 --> 00:55:05,116
Speaker 2: Chicago tracks, as well as the fiftieth anniversary re release

997
00:55:05,196 --> 00:55:08,436
Speaker 2: of Chicago nine Chicago's Greatest hits. Be sure to check

998
00:55:08,436 --> 00:55:11,556
Speaker 2: out YouTube Die Slash Broken Record podcast to see all

999
00:55:11,596 --> 00:55:14,236
Speaker 2: of our video interviews, and be sure to follow us

1000
00:55:14,276 --> 00:55:17,036
Speaker 2: on Instagram at the Broken Record pot. You can follow

1001
00:55:17,116 --> 00:55:20,116
Speaker 2: us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced

1002
00:55:20,116 --> 00:55:22,436
Speaker 2: and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric

1003
00:55:22,476 --> 00:55:26,676
Speaker 2: Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Holliday. Broken

1004
00:55:26,716 --> 00:55:28,676
Speaker 2: Record is production of Pushkin Industries.

1005
00:55:28,796 --> 00:55:30,476
Speaker 1: If you love this show and others.

1006
00:55:30,236 --> 00:55:33,876
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1007
00:55:33,916 --> 00:55:36,836
Speaker 2: a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad free

1008
00:55:36,876 --> 00:55:39,436
Speaker 2: listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin

1009
00:55:39,476 --> 00:55:42,876
Speaker 2: Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show,

1010
00:55:42,956 --> 00:55:44,916
Speaker 2: please remember to share, rate, and review us on your

1011
00:55:44,956 --> 00:55:48,556
Speaker 2: podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.