Speaker 1: So Gretchen Carlson is here. We met years ago. You
Speaker 1: were moderating an event and I think I spoke was
Speaker 1: that it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a couple of years ago. It was
Speaker 2: actually on Zoom because I think it was during COVID.
Speaker 1: That was probably one of my first and really only
Speaker 1: Zoom appearances.
Speaker 2: What yeah, why?
Speaker 1: I first of all, it would be hard for me
Speaker 1: to even get myself on a Zoom now, meaning physically
Speaker 1: do it. I'm one of those people that's like a
Speaker 1: dinosaur in that way and that tech way. But I
Speaker 1: didn't see the future and understand how Zoom could be real.
Speaker 1: And it was so great to do appearances and your
Speaker 1: pajama Yeah exactly. So that was good for me. But
Speaker 1: what was that for?
Speaker 3: Do you remember?
Speaker 2: I was trying to remember when my pure person was
Speaker 2: just asking me what it was. It was for some
Speaker 2: like conference that featured people who were philanthropic.
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, So it was about we.
Speaker 2: Were talking about all your efforts with when you go
Speaker 2: in after hurricanes strong and yours and yours and so
Speaker 2: you know, my efforts at lift our voices. And I
Speaker 2: think it was put on by a magazine. But it's
Speaker 2: escaping me, right, Okay, what it.
Speaker 1: Was so like so many other people that I interviewed
Speaker 1: that I know, we text back and forth, We've talked
Speaker 1: about making plans, we live near each other, Like so
Speaker 1: many other people, when I look at their bio, it's
Speaker 1: something that's never come up in speaking to them or
Speaker 1: texting with them.
Speaker 3: Obviously. I mean, you have the.
Speaker 1: Most colorful, assorted, impressive resume bio. I mean, if you
Speaker 1: had this as a resume and it basically just gave
Speaker 1: your hobbies and the other things you've been involved in,
Speaker 1: it would be impressive. So I was really, really I
Speaker 1: was shocked. So some of the things I read was
Speaker 1: a talented youth violinist, you were Miss Minnesota, Miss America,
Speaker 1: You went to Stamford, You were on Fox and Friends
Speaker 1: for many many years. You also, I mean I watched
Speaker 1: the documentary, if I listened to everything I see on TV,
Speaker 1: you kind of took down a network and also started
Speaker 1: a movement. So let's start by how you are so ambitious.
Speaker 1: Even just saying that you went to Stamford alone is
Speaker 1: something that's impressive. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Look, I think there's a through line in my life
Speaker 2: about working incredibly hard, you know, but there's also a
Speaker 2: through line that I think is inspirational to especially women
Speaker 2: who maybe drop out of the workforce or are trying
Speaker 2: to look like what their next calling is after they've
Speaker 2: been a parent. And my life, I hope, is a
Speaker 2: testament to like, you can always pick up the pieces
Speaker 2: and start over if you have a really good base
Speaker 2: of working hard, because my life has worked in so
Speaker 2: many mysterious ways, just like what you rattled off, like.
Speaker 2: I was a really serious violinist as a child, and
Speaker 2: I thought that was going to be my career, and
Speaker 2: I studied at Juilliard in New York, and I burned
Speaker 2: out when I was seventeen. I was like, you know what,
Speaker 2: I just like too many other things in life, and
Speaker 2: to be what I wanted to be in that area,
Speaker 2: I would have had to given up everything else. And
Speaker 2: I wasn't willing to do that because I loved school,
Speaker 2: and I was in drama, and I liked boys. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, there were a lot of things that were
Speaker 2: distracting me from music. And so then I went to
Speaker 2: Stanford and dedicated myself to my academics. And then my
Speaker 2: my mom especially was pretty upset that I wasn't playing
Speaker 2: the violin anymore. So I'll never forget. She called me
Speaker 2: when I was studying overseas. She's like, I phound something
Speaker 2: for you to do with your violin and I was
Speaker 2: like what, And she goes Miss America and I was like, Mom,
Speaker 2: are you ef a nuts? Like I'm from Minnesota. I'm
Speaker 2: I'm five foot three, I played classical violin, which has
Speaker 2: never won. I never watched pageants growing up. I was
Speaker 2: a tomboy. But my mom has been like this incredible
Speaker 2: driving force in my life and has really pushed me
Speaker 2: in a good way. And so she won, and I,
Speaker 2: you know, I entered because fifty percent of your points
Speaker 2: are based on talent. Ah, so that was that's what
Speaker 2: makes Smiss America different from Miss USA or other I wow,
Speaker 2: most people don't unfortunately. Yeah. So then I, you know,
Speaker 2: I stopped out of Stanford so that I could because
Speaker 2: once I got into it, I was like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 2: going to give this one hundred and twenty five percent.
Speaker 2: And there's so much luck involved in all of this,
Speaker 2: but so it you know, it ended up working out.
Speaker 2: I became something I never ever dreamed that I would
Speaker 2: ever be doing.
Speaker 1: Because of Miss America because it was sort of being
Speaker 1: forward facing.
Speaker 3: As we talked about.
Speaker 2: Before, I never expected to be in a pageant, right right?
Speaker 3: Oh right?
Speaker 2: I played grew up playing football with my brothers, you know,
Speaker 2: like I it just I wasn't a girly girl, like
Speaker 2: I never watched it growing up, So then suddenly I
Speaker 2: was it. I remember the night, the night that had
Speaker 2: happened to age myself, MERV Griffin and Ava Goabor because
Speaker 2: Viva Gobor was one of my judges and she was
Speaker 2: the beard for MERV Griffin.
Speaker 3: Right, Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So he had hotels in Atlantic City, so they threw
Speaker 2: me this pizza party after I won up in some
Speaker 2: sweet and I remember going into the bathroom and looking
Speaker 2: at myself and being like, holy shit, Like now you
Speaker 2: did this? Now?
Speaker 1: What? Right?
Speaker 2: Because you don't really prepare to like be it, Like
Speaker 2: I never thought about, oh if this actually happens, Like
Speaker 2: what is it like to be miss America?
Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting because often even with any job, you're
Speaker 1: excited to get it because it's a big get. That
Speaker 1: was me with a talk show, but I didn't really
Speaker 1: want it. I don't know that's your situation, but I thought, like,
Speaker 1: who wouldn't want this? And I'm supposed to go for this.
Speaker 1: But once I had it, it wasn't really for me.
Speaker 1: It wasn't even my personality, which I think is something
Speaker 1: people should explore new things, but you really have to
Speaker 1: think about it. Fill aligns with your personality ego aside exactly.
Speaker 2: I mean it's very similar. So like what it took
Speaker 2: to actually get there and win was totally different than
Speaker 2: what it was to actually be it.
Speaker 1: Well, it was very you to get there and win
Speaker 1: and be disciplined and put in the work and like
Speaker 1: to win. You are that type of person which we're
Speaker 1: going to get into. But then you probably became a
Speaker 1: show piece.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like back then, I was going to drugstores
Speaker 2: and signing autographs and I'm like, what am I doing?
Speaker 2: And I would hear people this is one of the drawbacks,
Speaker 2: which I guess would be expected because people were I
Speaker 2: was looking at your exterior, but I would actually hear
Speaker 2: people in line like I didn't have ears, and I
Speaker 2: would hear people say that's miss America. Yea, no. Look.
Speaker 2: I developed such a tough skin from it. So what
Speaker 2: I tried to do was do events where I could
Speaker 2: perform my violin a lot so that people would understand
Speaker 2: that this was you know that it was my talent
Speaker 2: that propelled me to do that's hard. I did a
Speaker 2: ton of speaking so that people knew I was intelligent,
Speaker 2: and actually the skills that experience gave me have helped
Speaker 2: me for the rest of my life. The first week
Speaker 2: I was Miss America, I was at this huge dinner
Speaker 2: with two thousand people, and I thought I was just
Speaker 2: there to attend, and right before dessert, the guy in
Speaker 2: charge came up to me and whispered in my ear,
Speaker 2: just wanted to let you know that your keynote is
Speaker 2: in five minutes. And I said, excuse me, my keynote
Speaker 2: And I said, oh, well, how long would you like
Speaker 2: me to speak? And he said, oh, just forty five minutes.
Speaker 2: I would shit. I went in the bathroom with cocktail
Speaker 2: napkin and like a pencil and wrote down some bullet
Speaker 2: points and learned from that point forward that I always
Speaker 2: had to have a speech in my back pocket. But
Speaker 2: it was just a week into this, so it really
Speaker 2: gave me amazing communications skills. I'm not nervous about anything
Speaker 2: after that. Right, you're twenty two years old and you're
Speaker 2: forced to be fifty Wow.
Speaker 1: But I think that's also something that mothers or parents
Speaker 1: can think about with their kids, not leaning into looks
Speaker 1: being the first thing I hear so many times. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm a person that is totally comfortable being with no
Speaker 1: makeup and obviously and pajamas.
Speaker 3: I post how I look like a wreck.
Speaker 1: I look like a wreck, Like I'm not defined by
Speaker 1: what I look like at all, And it's never been
Speaker 1: what's been forward facing. And it's funny because I used
Speaker 1: to work with Paris and Nikki Hilton, worked for Kathy
Speaker 1: and du Errands and be sort of there, you know,
Speaker 1: take them to school and things like that, and they
Speaker 1: were so stunningly beautiful, yet always really shy and quiet
Speaker 1: because they really didn't they were lions, they were gorgeous.
Speaker 1: They really didn't have to focus on personality then. But
Speaker 1: I remember, actually their aunt Kyle used to talk about that, like,
Speaker 1: that's not what they don't need to lean with. Their
Speaker 1: minds and personalities need to lead with that, and they
Speaker 1: developed that. But as women and daughters like you want
Speaker 1: to kind of be the most interesting person in the
Speaker 1: room versus just the hottest person room, So you were
Speaker 1: trying to show everyone that you were more than that.
Speaker 1: But also it sucks that you felt like you had
Speaker 1: to explain why you were Miss America. You were kind
Speaker 1: of explaining what the whole meaning of the pageant was about.
Speaker 2: You're right, right, like there was no category for height,
Speaker 2: but people would be like, oh, why isn't she taller?
Speaker 2: You know, I'm like, wait a minute, Like but to
Speaker 2: your point about parents, I used to get asked by
Speaker 2: mothers during that time in my life, what should I
Speaker 2: do to prepare my daughter to possibly be Miss America?
Speaker 2: And I would be like, stop worrying about her exterior.
Speaker 2: Have her start playing an instrument or a sport or
Speaker 2: something where you learn value about yourself, and that you
Speaker 2: learn by putting time into something that you get better
Speaker 2: and that builds self esteem. So my main message has
Speaker 2: always been building your self esteem from the inside of
Speaker 2: your soul instead of how we look. And today, in
Speaker 2: present day, that's just so much more important than when
Speaker 2: you and I were growing up, and with social media
Speaker 2: and everything else going on now, and it's one of
Speaker 2: the reasons when I was at Fox that on the
Speaker 2: International Day of the Girl in October of that year,
Speaker 2: I did my show without makeup on and I was
Speaker 2: the first person to do that on cable. Ze oh
Speaker 2: really yeah, And my whole point was that we should
Speaker 2: be valued for what's coming out of our mouth and
Speaker 2: the interviews I was doing, and not how we look.
Speaker 2: And trust me, the higher opposite fox were really mad
Speaker 2: at me that day.
Speaker 1: Well, that's right, I believe you because it's also but
Speaker 1: it also has just if you're a smart person, it
Speaker 1: has longevity. Looks don't have longevity brains do. I mean
Speaker 1: he saw Judge Judy say like, if you can't do
Speaker 1: it to twenty, do it at thirty, can't do it thirty,
Speaker 1: do it at forty. And you know, remember she said,
Speaker 1: thank god I never asked for equal pay with men,
Speaker 1: because she was making more than any of the mem
Speaker 1: I like that. And I also think that as we
Speaker 1: get older, when I think about age, I don't think
Speaker 1: about vanity. I never have, but I never think about vanity.
Speaker 1: I don't think about wrinkles. I think about being healthy
Speaker 1: for my daughter. I think about that, you know, the
Speaker 1: numbers don't lie, and will I be around for her?
Speaker 1: And like that's what makes me cry, not looking older.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm being wise for her. Like you've had so
Speaker 2: many life experiences. I've had so many life experiences, and
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't mean to fast forward to what
Speaker 2: I ended up doing seven years ago and taking down
Speaker 2: the one of the most powerful men in the world.
Speaker 2: But I have learned from my kids that those actions.
Speaker 2: As much as I feared how it would impact their lives,
Speaker 2: it actually has worked out so amazing because courage is contagious.
Speaker 1: So how did you get on to Fox and Friends?
Speaker 1: How did you become a TV personality?
Speaker 3: Get a news so?
Speaker 2: I mean it's a long, long journey because there's really
Speaker 2: no set path to becoming it's one of the top
Speaker 2: journalists there, especially now with reality TV, which you know
Speaker 2: a lot about people become famous overnight and suddenly they're
Speaker 2: doing TV and I'm like, wait a minute, they don't
Speaker 2: know anything about news.
Speaker 1: Oh and also TikTok journalists, So people reporting the news
Speaker 1: on TikTok of the microphone is if like, it's interesting,
Speaker 1: and some of.
Speaker 3: Them were good at it. It's research, it's interesting.
Speaker 2: No, I mean, so look, I'm not saying that they
Speaker 2: shouldn't become popular at all. But when I was starting, well,
Speaker 2: actually I was going to be a lawyer, so I
Speaker 2: took the LSATs and then my whole Miss America experience
Speaker 2: really put me in front of the camera on a
Speaker 2: daily basis, and I had had sort of an interest
Speaker 2: in the back of my brain, and so it rekindled
Speaker 2: that interest. And then I knew my LSATs were good
Speaker 2: for five years, so if the TV thing didn't work out,
Speaker 2: I could still go to law school. And it's actually
Speaker 2: one of my big regrets in my life that I've
Speaker 2: never gotten the education because I'm such a student at
Speaker 2: home and I always say to my husband, now do
Speaker 2: you think I have time to fit in law school?
Speaker 2: He's like, what are you talking about? But I still
Speaker 2: might do it. But anyway, so I didn't go to
Speaker 2: law school and I started in my first job in Richmond, Virginia,
Speaker 2: and I knew nothing about TV. I mean it was
Speaker 2: I had no idea what I was doing at all.
Speaker 3: And where had you been living prior to that?
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 2: I finished my degree at Stanford after I was missed
Speaker 2: right after I met So then I went to do
Speaker 2: this job and three months into it, I got a
Speaker 2: female boss, which was a godsend because she looked at
Speaker 2: me and said, you're a hard worker. You're now the
Speaker 2: political reporter. I was like, oh crap, Like what does
Speaker 2: that mean? She goes you're covering the governor every day.
Speaker 2: I'm likeugh, and you didn't know anything about politicians. Well,
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about politics. I didn't know anything
Speaker 2: about TV more importantly, because that was my job. TV's
Speaker 2: such a like a as you know, learning while you're doing.
Speaker 2: Like you it's a practical job in the sense that
Speaker 2: you can't really study how to do it.
Speaker 1: Oh no, it's practic's but being a chef in the kitchen,
Speaker 1: you really have to get in the kitchen to do it.
Speaker 1: Someone can tell you and you could read it about it,
Speaker 1: didn't even hear about it, but you have to do it.
Speaker 1: But I think it's harder probably to become a quote
Speaker 1: unquote knowledgeable expert on politics and it is to learn
Speaker 1: how to be on TV.
Speaker 2: True, So I was learning both at the same time.
Speaker 2: It was really a sink or swim situation. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: you know, I worked my full head off and built
Speaker 2: up all these contacts and so you know, it worked out.
Speaker 2: And so then after two years in TV, what happens
Speaker 2: is you can't just like be promoted by going up
Speaker 2: to the fifteenth floor. You got to move cities. So
Speaker 2: you go to a bigger market. So then I went
Speaker 2: to Cincinnati, and that's where I really learned how to
Speaker 2: do live TV and turn things quickly. And then I
Speaker 2: went to Cleveland and that was my first reporter and
Speaker 2: anchor job. Then I got promoted to the main anchor
Speaker 2: job in Cleveland. Then I met my husband on a
Speaker 2: blind date, got married, and promptly got fired because I
Speaker 2: was part of the first prime time local newscast with
Speaker 2: two women. Okay, it was kind of a precursor to
Speaker 2: what I ended up doing, but it didn't work, and
Speaker 2: the other woman was like born and bred in Cleveland,
Speaker 2: so I was the one to go. But it's a
Speaker 2: horrible experience because it's like I was being made fun
Speaker 2: of for being fired. But it's not like I went
Speaker 2: out to a bar and like exposed myself and got
Speaker 2: fired for cause, right, you know. It was just because
Speaker 2: it didn't work, so and I'd just gotten married. It
Speaker 2: was a really dark time in my life. I mean
Speaker 2: I would sit in my garage and smoke cigarettes and.
Speaker 3: That story before and cry because I was just.
Speaker 2: Like, what am I going And it's hard enough to
Speaker 2: get married. It's transition, and I was established in my career.
Speaker 2: I was in my thirties, and then it was just
Speaker 2: gone and it was sort of my identity. And so
Speaker 2: I really struggled for that first year. And then I
Speaker 2: and then, as fate would have it, I got like
Speaker 2: three job offers, all in Dallas in the same week. Really, yeah,
Speaker 2: how soon after a year?
Speaker 1: Oh okay, because I feel that it's so funny people
Speaker 1: want to put you down for your failures and really
Speaker 1: bring them up, and you wouldn't have your successes without
Speaker 1: your failing They're honestly valuable. And I have always been
Speaker 1: a person who, in the moment when something I don't
Speaker 1: get something or it fails, that I have always had
Speaker 1: the wisdom to realize that it was all going to
Speaker 1: something was going to come from that difficult time.
Speaker 2: So I think you don't feel it when you're living it.
Speaker 2: But yeah, and then my mom, of course, my mom
Speaker 2: would tell me every day it's just around the corner,
Speaker 2: like meaning a new job. So then, like I said,
Speaker 2: his fate would have it, I got I got three
Speaker 2: job offers. Ironically, the one I took was so my
Speaker 2: boss in Cleveland, who had really nothing to do with
Speaker 2: letting me go. She ended up going to work for
Speaker 2: NBC in Dallas, and that was one of the job offers.
Speaker 3: Oh great.
Speaker 2: So it was like a testament to like, I really
Speaker 2: enjoyed working with Gretchen and I'm going to bring her back.
Speaker 2: But I did have to take a bit of a
Speaker 2: step back because I went back to like anchoring the
Speaker 2: weekend news, right, So I had to build myself back
Speaker 2: up and within And by the way, I lived in
Speaker 2: Dallas for a full year without my husband. We commuted.
Speaker 3: That must have been brutal.
Speaker 2: It was brutal, yeah, But then he finally moved down there,
Speaker 2: and then nine months later I got a job with
Speaker 2: CBS News in New York. And on my third date
Speaker 2: with him, when we first started dating, I said to him,
Speaker 2: this sounds like something you would say. I said, if
Speaker 2: you don't want to move to New York City in
Speaker 2: your life, don't call me back. Ah, that's where I'm going, right,
Speaker 2: you know. And like I said, I was already in
Speaker 2: my thirties, like I was established and relationships are kind
Speaker 2: of secondary, right, And he said, well, that's where I
Speaker 2: want to go too, So I was like, okay. So
Speaker 2: we were very happy to move to New York City
Speaker 2: and that was in two thousand and we were like
Speaker 2: two passing ships in the night because he's a baseball agent,
Speaker 2: so he was constantly on the road recruiting and going
Speaker 2: to games. And I was an international correspondent for CBS News,
Speaker 2: so I always had a suitcase packed and literally I
Speaker 2: would have to be on my way to the airport
Speaker 2: in two minutes after they called me to say such
Speaker 2: and such happened, you have to go. So sometimes we'd
Speaker 2: have date night in LaGuardia. You know, it was just like, oh,
Speaker 2: I haven't seen you for a week, but you're flying
Speaker 2: to Tokyo and I'm going to you know, Istanbul, so
Speaker 2: I guess we'll meet up. And it was it was
Speaker 2: a really exciting time in our life. We could really
Speaker 2: enjoy New York. We didn't have kids yet, and then
Speaker 2: I got Then I got promoted to the Saturday early show,
Speaker 2: which was always my dream to do a morning show
Speaker 2: because it was like a combination of hard news but
Speaker 2: also showing your personality and having fun, right. And it
Speaker 2: was also then that I could start thinking about having kids,
Speaker 2: because you know, morning shows are like they want to
Speaker 2: show off the babies, and when you're an international correspondent,
Speaker 2: not so much.
Speaker 1: Oh, no, one's thinking of you as a mom. And also,
Speaker 1: it sounds like you liked the structure. No, Kelly rip
Speaker 1: I talked to you about that she liked when she
Speaker 1: got Regis and Kelly that she liked the structure. She
Speaker 1: being an actress, was not the same sort of consistency
Speaker 1: and structure.
Speaker 2: So it is n Yeah, So then we, you know,
Speaker 2: we started trying to get pregnant. I was blessed to
Speaker 2: I have problems at first, but I was blessed to
Speaker 2: have a daughter and soon after a son, and I
Speaker 2: just hit the jackpot, you know. And then when my
Speaker 2: son was three months old, Fox came calling and they
Speaker 2: were like, how would you like to do a morning
Speaker 2: show five days a week. Well, who wouldn't say yes
Speaker 2: to that?
Speaker 3: Of course?
Speaker 2: You know, this is years ago.
Speaker 3: I was on that show. Oh yeah, yeah, Fox and Friends.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was the number one cable news show
Speaker 2: in the country and it became more popular once this,
Speaker 2: you know, our group was assembled. But the hell started soon.
Speaker 1: After, right, So the hell was while you were on Fox.
Speaker 1: You were on Fox and Friends for how many years? Eight?
Speaker 2: That's a long And then I had my own show
Speaker 2: at Fox for three years. But so I got fired
Speaker 2: from Fox and Friends at the height of the height
Speaker 2: of the popularity because it was retaliation for me not
Speaker 2: acquiescing to sexual demands. Wow. And so it was made
Speaker 2: to look like I got a promotion because they gave
Speaker 2: me my own show in the afternoon, But it was
Speaker 2: actually a demotion. They slashed my pay in half. They
Speaker 2: gave me a desk from the broken closet, I mean
Speaker 2: the broken desk from the closet. I had the smallest
Speaker 2: producing staff. I mean, it was like it was like
Speaker 2: a three year journey to try and make me invisible
Speaker 2: so that when they actually fired me, people wouldn't miss out.
Speaker 1: Oh and that also it looked like there was a
Speaker 1: history of it was bad. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: I didn't have viewers, my ratings, you know, the whole.
Speaker 2: I mean, imagine if that time and energy. And by
Speaker 2: the way, this is not only happening at Fox News,
Speaker 2: and by the way, in every industry this is happening
Speaker 2: where women and men are subjected to sexual misconduct and
Speaker 2: then when they don't do it, they're retaliated against.
Speaker 1: Right well, also even not just limited to that, just
Speaker 1: sanctions and punishment for being bad, Like you feel like
Speaker 1: a child for being bad. And I recently likened it
Speaker 1: to cult like behavior because the person at the top,
Speaker 1: often a male figure, has the power and the charisma
Speaker 1: and is feeding off of all the machinations and the
Speaker 1: chessboard and the pieces that they're moving around, and has
Speaker 1: individual relationships with each person that the others don't know about,
Speaker 1: and they're promising individual things they're giving, they're taking away.
Speaker 1: And isn't that Is that in a sound familiar.
Speaker 2: You and I are just talking the same language at
Speaker 2: this whole podcast, because that's exactly what this is all about.
Speaker 3: And did you ever think about it in a cult man?
Speaker 2: You said that were, well, yes, I believe Well Fox
Speaker 2: has gotten just way out of hand, different from even
Speaker 2: when I was there. Yeah, I would never ever, ever, ever, ever,
Speaker 2: ever work at Fox News in this you know, iteration
Speaker 2: of it, right, but you factor that this is now
Speaker 2: Let's see, I was there eleven years. I've been gone seven,
Speaker 2: so eighteen years ago I took that job at Fox
Speaker 2: and Friends. I didn't even know that it was like,
Speaker 2: It's not that I'm naive. I didn't even know it
Speaker 2: was a political channel.
Speaker 1: At the time when we were growing up, news was
Speaker 1: not you didn't have anchors eye rolling about the opposite party,
Speaker 1: like it's almost juvenile. When we were growing up, news
Speaker 1: was definitely more neutral.
Speaker 3: It wasn't so liked.
Speaker 1: Like it's the news, you're supposed to seem somewhat impartial.
Speaker 1: And it's become like almost scripted.
Speaker 2: No, it's totally like we only watch what we want
Speaker 2: to hear, so everything becomes siloed. And that's how we
Speaker 2: have gotten into this great divide.
Speaker 1: Right, you can hear what you want to hear by go,
Speaker 1: like the way people call their friends to tell them
Speaker 1: what they want to hear, or hate who they want
Speaker 1: them to hate. That's what That's what the news in
Speaker 1: general is like.
Speaker 2: Now. To me, some people still think I'm on Fox
Speaker 2: when I walk through the airport, and why is that
Speaker 2: because that's the only thing they watch. And obviously Fox
Speaker 2: News never reported on the fact that I brought down
Speaker 2: the guy who ran it, right, so they in their
Speaker 2: brains still think they see me on Fox News, which
Speaker 2: is just crazy. So and by the way, Roger Ails
Speaker 2: is my alleged predator, is the one who created Opinion TV,
Speaker 2: and so when it started twenty five thirty years ago,
Speaker 2: it was I don't want to give him any credit,
Speaker 2: but it was a brilliant idea because it was at
Speaker 2: that time that people the internet was starting, and people
Speaker 2: were getting their news at work, right, so when they
Speaker 2: got home at night, they actually wanted to see what
Speaker 2: people thought about the news.
Speaker 1: Yes, and also infotainment. It was you know, it wasn't
Speaker 1: just the news dry because everything's become infotainment because you know,
Speaker 1: they're going to start selling the clothes off of anchors
Speaker 1: back soon, because you have to have more ways to
Speaker 1: monetize what you're doing. And it's it is, it's it's
Speaker 1: just the nature of the beast exactly. Okay, So how
Speaker 1: do you take this on? So you feel like you're
Speaker 1: being demoted, you feel like you're being fired, how do
Speaker 1: you what's your first step to taking down a person
Speaker 1: at a network? Like who are you talking to? What
Speaker 1: are you doing so? And how many years ago is this?
Speaker 1: Because I watched I.
Speaker 2: Was fired seven years ago. You fired seven years and
Speaker 2: I sued two weeks later, So I was already thinking
Speaker 2: about this.
Speaker 3: When did you sign an NDA.
Speaker 2: Upon my resolution? After I came forward and sued, and
Speaker 2: then you know, we came to a settlement agreement and
Speaker 2: then part of that and my settlement was very progressive actually,
Speaker 2: because I got a public apology that never happens. And that's,
Speaker 2: by the way, that's all survivors ever want is because
Speaker 2: it validates their claims. I got that, which was huge,
Speaker 2: and I also gave that Fox News and Rupert Murdoch
Speaker 2: and News Corps.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, they acknowledge a valid Oh my god.
Speaker 2: I to apologize for the horrible treatment that I faced
Speaker 2: and that I was a reputable, you know, talented woman
Speaker 2: who should have never ever he had. When the news
Speaker 2: came out about my settlement, ironically, I was getting my
Speaker 2: nails done in pedicure because I was waiting to get
Speaker 2: a haircut on the first day of school after we
Speaker 2: dropped off our kids, and tears were just streaming down
Speaker 2: my face because the headlines that came out were they
Speaker 2: apologized to her, They apologized to her chills survivors. Thousands
Speaker 2: of people have reached out to me since saying that's
Speaker 2: all I ever wanted, right and and then so, but
Speaker 2: what came. I was also given the ability to speak
Speaker 2: openly about issues like sexual harassment in the workplace, which
Speaker 2: I've taken full advantage of in the laws that I've passed,
Speaker 2: and the millions of people that I've helped. What I
Speaker 2: have been silenced about are all my basically my truth,
Speaker 2: my whole story of my eleven years at Fox. I
Speaker 2: can't tell you really what happened to me.
Speaker 3: Do you have any regrets?
Speaker 2: I have absolutely no regrets about coming forward I have.
Speaker 3: Now, do you have regrets about the settlement?
Speaker 2: You?
Speaker 3: Maybe you can't talk about.
Speaker 2: This, But how could I have known? You've had so
Speaker 2: many twists and turns in your life too, so you'll
Speaker 2: relate to this. How could I have known that I
Speaker 2: was igniting an international movement called me Too when I
Speaker 2: came forward?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: I thought I was going to be crying at home
Speaker 2: for the rest of my life because I was fired
Speaker 2: and never work as a journalist ever again. So that
Speaker 2: was the first thing. Number two. How could I have
Speaker 2: known that because of that movement and how well known
Speaker 2: my story would become, that it would inspire so many
Speaker 2: other people to come forward, and then that I'd actually
Speaker 2: be doing advocacy work to get rid of NDAs. How
Speaker 2: would I know that in a short span of seven years,
Speaker 2: I'm actually have passed laws now that get rid of NDAs.
Speaker 3: Can you do that on your own?
Speaker 2: I mean, so far nobody really wants to be on
Speaker 2: board about opening up people's truths from time in the past.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I disagree because I don't I think because this you're.
Speaker 2: Not about politicians who don't want to do that.
Speaker 1: Oh No, I just want to talk about this topic
Speaker 1: because I truly feel like there we're going to get
Speaker 1: into the reality reckoning. And if you've heard about it
Speaker 1: and what you think about it, yeah, and if they're parallels,
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are. But the thing is, I do
Speaker 1: not think that a place like Bravo for example, or
Speaker 1: any of the big networks or streamers now can get
Speaker 1: away with suing someone who speaks up about improper treatment
Speaker 1: because the court of public opinion is so much more
Speaker 1: powerful than the court of the law. I just think
Speaker 1: it would be too damaging for them. Like I think
Speaker 1: if anybody silenced you from deciding now that you made
Speaker 1: the wrong decision about that one thing, I just don't
Speaker 1: think that they would. I don't think that they would
Speaker 1: take action, and I just don't think they'd win.
Speaker 2: But keep in mind, I was the first person to
Speaker 2: take the house down.
Speaker 3: Well, and also you get criticized because you took money.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, but here's the whole problem with that. The
Speaker 2: way that gets publicized. How is it good publicity? It
Speaker 2: gets publicized that and this is how we think culturally
Speaker 2: that people who sign settlement agreements get money for their silence. No,
Speaker 2: you want to know what people are getting money for.
Speaker 2: They never freaking work again. That's true because they get
Speaker 2: black buld from the industry. It's true to consider to
Speaker 2: be a troublemaker. And that's what I'm also trying to change,
Speaker 2: not just laws, but and by the way, passing bipartisan
Speaker 2: legislation in the most hyper political time of our generation
Speaker 2: is easier than changing culture. And that's saying a lot.
Speaker 1: No, I'm just saying it's hard to because I've watched
Speaker 1: other people in this sphere. I'm not suing anyone and
Speaker 1: I'm not asking for any anything. So it's very powerful
Speaker 1: because you can't say that I'm just going for money. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's what you did. You experienced torture.
Speaker 1: And also someone should be whatever. Yes, it's that you
Speaker 1: can't work again, but it's okay to say I want
Speaker 1: compensation for what I experienced or that there were damages
Speaker 1: or it's damages, because.
Speaker 2: You can that's an old school way of solving these things.
Speaker 2: So what I'm trying to do through Lift our Voices
Speaker 2: now is change the way companies think about these things.
Speaker 2: They spend millions of dollars trying to cover things up. Oh,
Speaker 2: I you know, imagine if they actually put all those
Speaker 2: resources into independent investigations that don't penalize the person who
Speaker 2: had the courage to come forward. How this should work
Speaker 2: is like, let's say I come forward. I say this
Speaker 2: is how I'm being treated At Fox News, they do
Speaker 2: an independent investigation, not the kind walls hr or hiring
Speaker 2: a law firm for a million bucks that they've worked
Speaker 2: with for twenty years, none of that bullshit. Independent use
Speaker 2: the money that they're using to cover up shit. Do
Speaker 2: an independent investigation, find out Gretchen's telling the truth. She
Speaker 2: gets to keep her job. Why why should people who
Speaker 2: have courage to come forward be the ones that get
Speaker 2: shunted out never work again. And by the way, because
Speaker 2: it's all secret, the perpetrator gets to keep their job
Speaker 2: because nobody knows what's happening. And this is how this
Speaker 2: vicious cycle y has gone.
Speaker 1: I agree, I'm actually not on It's actually not that
Speaker 1: dissimilar what I'm talking about. So the reality reckoning, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure what you understand about it totally.
Speaker 2: I've read all, I know everything you're doing.
Speaker 3: But what happens?
Speaker 1: I just said something I literally wasn't even about me
Speaker 1: per se. It was just like, wait a second. This
Speaker 1: is the most exploited group because these are people that
Speaker 1: are being themselves quote unquote playing themselves and they lose
Speaker 1: jobs and kids are damaged forever and have mics on them.
Speaker 1: And what's different, though, is that you could define that
Speaker 1: it was improper improper practices in the workplace. The reason
Speaker 1: that this is more cave era and more archaic is
Speaker 1: this is not a workplace. So you have to be
Speaker 1: there on time. You are not allowed to not show up.
Speaker 1: You have rules, you have contracts, you have regulations, but
Speaker 1: they're entirely to benefit the realm. You are not an
Speaker 1: actual worker, so you don't. You get paid by a
Speaker 1: third party, so it doesn't seem like you're a real worker,
Speaker 1: meaning you can you could drink forty drinks at work here.
Speaker 1: You could be an addict that's recovering and start doing
Speaker 1: drugs and that will be celebrated in this workplace. The
Speaker 1: person is not valued. But the similarity is that the
Speaker 1: top is literally monetizing and benefiting from this off of
Speaker 1: women's backs, and it's an environment where it's literally celebrated
Speaker 1: and designed for women to trash other women, to set
Speaker 1: to not explore people's lives, but to exploit them. It's
Speaker 1: the upside down because we don't even have the baseline
Speaker 1: of it being a workplace to then say this is
Speaker 1: improper work in the workplace.
Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you the two laws I passed
Speaker 2: last year to get rid of NDA's for sexual misconduct
Speaker 2: and forced arbitration, which is the other way that you're silenced.
Speaker 2: People have no idea what that is, but it means
Speaker 2: that you can't go to court, you can't openly sue somebody,
Speaker 2: You have to go to this secret place. Yes, exactly, yea,
Speaker 2: which is so my two laws I passed even protect
Speaker 2: reality show workers, okay, even though because they're independent contractors
Speaker 2: right yep. So I made sure to have that in
Speaker 2: the language of both of my bills, because, especially after COVID,
Speaker 2: there are so many gig workers, independent contractors, migrant workers.
Speaker 2: They're all covered on my So your reality fight for you.
Speaker 2: There is a lot of synergy. Oh, yeah, my laws
Speaker 2: actually protect reality show workers even though they're not real employees.
Speaker 2: So if they faced sexual misconduct during their time while
Speaker 2: they're there, they don't have to be silenced anymore.
Speaker 1: There's also there's no one to go to. There is
Speaker 1: no hall monitor, there is no HR, there would be
Speaker 1: no one to talk to. You'd be talking to a
Speaker 1: producer who's paid to get you to drink. And doesn't
Speaker 1: mean they're pouring it down your throat. It means they're
Speaker 1: having alcohol everywhere and telling someone else get her to
Speaker 1: play that drinking game. And there's no therapy. And I've
Speaker 1: seen people have nervous breakdo I've seen people have breakdowns
Speaker 1: and then be put on television days after, like it's
Speaker 1: actually abuse and it's emotional abuse and so and by
Speaker 1: the way, many people don't get compensated at all and
Speaker 1: forever like you didn't get.
Speaker 3: Paid well known, and then they know even if you
Speaker 3: are well known.
Speaker 1: Then I got paid fifty dollars from my first season,
Speaker 1: and fifteen years later, I'm on the entire buses and
Speaker 1: those are still being aired in My picture is still
Speaker 1: on the thumb print and I don't see any of that.
Speaker 2: You don't get a residual from that zero God.
Speaker 1: No, no one realizes that that if and now they
Speaker 1: sell They've just sold it again. They keep selling and
Speaker 1: selling and selling, So Bravo sells it. We're gonna hack
Speaker 1: up the chicken number, giving something to hey you, Hey you, Australia,
Speaker 1: hey u UK, to Amazon, to this one, to that one,
Speaker 1: to Peacock not a thing, and the memes, the and
Speaker 1: the gifts, like we are really in the dark ages
Speaker 1: because even and it's hard to say, even someplace like
Speaker 1: Fox or CBS or CNN or ABC, there is some
Speaker 1: like there is some sort of governor, like there is
Speaker 1: a you sign a contract, you're supposed to be in
Speaker 1: a workplace, you can say like this is not okay,
Speaker 1: you might not be heard, but there this is not even.
Speaker 1: This is literally the wild wild West, and no one's
Speaker 1: looked at it.
Speaker 3: For thirty years.
Speaker 2: So well, good for you for so.
Speaker 1: But but more importantly than the details about it is
Speaker 1: like I know you felt this. What it feels like
Speaker 1: to say something first, to know that you're right, and
Speaker 1: a lot of people on the macro level to agree
Speaker 1: and know that you're right. But the peers and the
Speaker 1: people in the mid level that are scaredy cats. They're
Speaker 1: the ones making you think that you might be fucked,
Speaker 1: that you might be like you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: Like my brain is upside and I'll see people on
Speaker 1: the street and I'll hear from people that are running
Speaker 1: multi billion dollar, you know, publicly traded companies in entertainment
Speaker 1: that are saying, I want to hear what you're doing.
Speaker 1: I want to be part of it, Sagan after coming
Speaker 1: to me, I want to be part of it. Everyone
Speaker 1: knows I'm right, but at my peer level and the
Speaker 1: mid level, I'm toxic and people won't work for me,
Speaker 1: and some producers won't work with me. I don't care,
Speaker 1: because I also think that I started this at a
Speaker 1: later period in my career in life than you did.
Speaker 1: You were younger, and like you said, like earning power
Speaker 1: was cut off earlier, Like I'm I'm I want to
Speaker 1: be in my pajamas doing makeup in cottage cheese videos, you.
Speaker 3: Know what I mean?
Speaker 1: So like I'm not, But I definitely have risked a
Speaker 1: lot and like been on the verge of cancelation for
Speaker 1: this thing that I'm not even making money for. But
Speaker 1: I have all these people behind me that are now
Speaker 1: depending upon me and I can't open You can't open
Speaker 1: your mouth, which is what all celebrities do, and not
Speaker 1: back it up.
Speaker 3: Right, you got to go the way.
Speaker 2: Look, your path is very similar to what I did.
Speaker 2: You're helping people you'll never meet, right, right. I say
Speaker 2: this all the time. This will be my legacy. What
Speaker 2: I'm doing now. I'm helping millions of people who I
Speaker 2: will never ever meet in this world because we have
Speaker 2: gazillions of workers in America. Right And the work I'm
Speaker 2: doing at Lift our Voice is to get rid of
Speaker 2: the way we silence these stories. I have a lot
Speaker 2: of people who disagree with me too, mainly companies because
Speaker 2: they don't.
Speaker 3: Want to deal with it.
Speaker 2: They like their dirty laundry being silence. Right. But the
Speaker 2: people I'm helping it's massive. Oh yes, it's basically everyone
Speaker 2: from from minimum wage workers up to white collar jobs,
Speaker 2: because we're all subjected to these silencing mechanisms. But we
Speaker 2: have no idea what we're signing when we start a job.
Speaker 1: That's you're also helping people that disagree with you and
Speaker 1: were too scared to stick up for it, and they
Speaker 1: knew you, and they knew that you were right, and
Speaker 1: you had people secretly texting you telling you that they
Speaker 1: don't have the courage that you do. But you're right,
Speaker 1: and they're cheering you on. You were having silent cheers, right.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, I mean I didn't hear from a
Speaker 2: tremendous amount of people at Fox News, but the rest
Speaker 2: of the world, Yes.
Speaker 3: Well, what about the rest of the entertainment industry too?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Look, this is rampant, as we saw, because then the
Speaker 2: Harvey Weinstein allegations came out fifteen months after my stories.
Speaker 2: But the only reason those came out is because the
Speaker 2: reporters of the New York Times were given the green
Speaker 2: light to actually look into them more seriously because my
Speaker 2: case had come forward.
Speaker 3: And you don't get the credit for that.
Speaker 2: No, no, I don't. But I know what happened exactly.
Speaker 2: And I know they always say that the me too
Speaker 2: movements started in October of whatever year that was, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, wait a minute, because I came forward
Speaker 2: in July, fifteen months before that, which you know, Look,
Speaker 2: there's so many of us who played a part in this,
Speaker 2: But definitely it took an immense courage from me to
Speaker 2: be by myself and jump off the cliff.
Speaker 1: That's why it's funny because you deserve the credit and
Speaker 1: you want it because you know how you felt naked,
Speaker 1: alone and afraid, like I have been standing naked me
Speaker 1: like what am I doing? Why am I doing this?
Speaker 1: What am Your head's blowing up? You don't know what
Speaker 1: you're doing? And yeah, you want the credit because it
Speaker 1: wasn't easy. When you first opened your mouth, you were
Speaker 1: shitting your pants. But you open your mouth and then
Speaker 1: once the words came out, you're like, all right, I
Speaker 1: guess we're going.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there was no safety net below except for
Speaker 2: all the survivors who started reaching out to me, and
Speaker 2: they actually were what buoyed me in my darkest days.
Speaker 2: I realized there were two epidemics. There was an epidemic
Speaker 2: of misconduct in the workplace, right, but there was also
Speaker 2: an epidemic of putting it under the carpet and silencing it.
Speaker 2: And that's when I rolled up my sleeves and back
Speaker 2: to how we started, with my hard work ethic that
Speaker 2: I've had my whole life. I was like, I got
Speaker 2: to do something about this, like I have to. I
Speaker 2: have to pay tribute to all these people who came
Speaker 2: before me, who nobody has ever heard of because they
Speaker 2: were silenced.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you were saying, there's two problems. One the
Speaker 1: actual issue to the cover your ass exactly cover your
Speaker 1: ass is massive. I'm dealing with cover your ass. And
Speaker 1: once the thing I will say to people who want
Speaker 1: to fight for something and who could possibly have the courage,
Speaker 1: that is kind of what you're saying, once the match
Speaker 1: gets lit, it's a forest fire, they cannot stop it.
Speaker 1: Like that's I'm already there, like where I'm telling people,
Speaker 1: don't worry, we got this. And I'm not even sure how.
Speaker 1: I just am positive, not even like blind faith. Like
Speaker 1: it's too powerful, it's too true.
Speaker 2: And you don't even have to get politicians to agree
Speaker 2: with you, which I do passing laws. That sounds. So
Speaker 2: I've walked the halls of Congress for the last you know,
Speaker 2: six six and a half years, And to your point
Speaker 2: about knowing that you're doing the right thing, but having
Speaker 2: no idea when you actually start it. H So for
Speaker 2: me last year being at the White House and standing
Speaker 2: up on a stage with the Vice President and President
Speaker 2: of the United States, yes, and introducing them and being
Speaker 2: the voice for all of the survivors all across America
Speaker 2: and standing there and watch him sign this first bill
Speaker 2: into law and handing me the pen.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: That that is the justification for me jumping off of
Speaker 2: that cliff without knowing what the hell was going to
Speaker 2: happen to me. Not because of Gretchen Carlson, because on
Speaker 2: that day we gave power back to millions of people
Speaker 2: who have been subjected to these kinds of things at work.
Speaker 2: And then eight months later we did it again with
Speaker 2: our NBA bill. These are the two biggest labor law
Speaker 2: changes in the last one hundred years.
Speaker 1: This labor law is a very big issue right now.
Speaker 1: I was talking to Juju about this. They're very interested
Speaker 1: in this over the area you talk to them.
Speaker 3: But you're right.
Speaker 1: The first validation was getting your personal apology, and now
Speaker 1: the validation is passing laws and know the lawyers that
Speaker 1: are helping all these people. They want me to go
Speaker 1: to Washington and because you know of a union and unfair.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll talk to someone and say that I should
Speaker 1: have them on, but like then it has to really
Speaker 1: pop off. Why otherwise we're just talking about fluff like
Speaker 1: I was recently, Like I've got to talk to you
Speaker 1: because we do have similarities and this is so interesting
Speaker 1: and you really did break through, and I think that that.
Speaker 3: What did you think of the documentary?
Speaker 2: There was a movie called Bombshell, and then there was
Speaker 2: a mini series called The Loudest Voice.
Speaker 3: The Loudest Voice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, okay, So just to put in perspective for
Speaker 2: your listeners about how restrictive NDAs are they. I've had
Speaker 2: people come up to me and be like, oh, I
Speaker 2: saw your miniseries and I saw your movie, and I'm like, actually,
Speaker 2: those are not my projects because I can't participate in
Speaker 2: anything best on my NDA.
Speaker 3: That's why I'm asking what you thought, though, Well.
Speaker 2: I can't even tell you, which is my point.
Speaker 3: Well was it good?
Speaker 1: You can't say it was at you can't say anything.
Speaker 1: You can't say good, or I can't.
Speaker 2: Say the portrayal was accurate. Here's what I can say,
Speaker 2: and now my brain's again in overdrive. I can say
Speaker 2: that I think it's absolutely amazing and wonderful that actresses
Speaker 2: of the caliber of Naomi Watts and Nicole Kidman took
Speaker 2: on these roles playing Gretchen Carls. I'm like, I'm just
Speaker 2: a small town kid who grow up Minnesota, right, Like,
Speaker 2: that's crazy. Okay. The fact that they thought that this
Speaker 2: issue was important. Great point, right, The movie and the
Speaker 2: miniseries has probably helped countless numbers of people to also
Speaker 2: develop the same kind of courage worth it. Whether or
Speaker 2: not I can actually tell you that, you know, the
Speaker 2: portrayal of me is accurate or not, kind of doesn't
Speaker 2: matter if those two things are more. Oh and the
Speaker 2: third thing is Hollywood would have never made these projects
Speaker 2: seven years ago, right right? I mean, so that's the
Speaker 2: third big thing. I mean, would I love to own
Speaker 2: my own truth? Like people are always alarmed when I
Speaker 2: give speeches or do interviews and I say I don't
Speaker 2: own my own truth. I don't own my own story.
Speaker 2: How fucked up? Is that?
Speaker 3: Very fucked up?
Speaker 1: But yeah, But the bigger the bigger picture is people want.
Speaker 1: It happens in divorces with custody agreements or divorce or
Speaker 1: you just signed because you said the deal, fatigue, you're exhausted,
Speaker 1: you got something, somebody broke down. Your lawyer says to you,
Speaker 1: fucking sign it, just sign it, and you don't. God
Speaker 1: doesn't give you everything, But really be careful on what
Speaker 1: you sign, because I'm sure you have some regrets and
Speaker 1: because you just didn't know you'd be on this trajectory,
Speaker 1: this deep.
Speaker 2: I would never know, and it was just commonplace. But
Speaker 2: now it's not. We've passed laws in states now where
Speaker 2: we can be more progressive than on Capitol Hill in
Speaker 2: New Jersey, California, and Washington State, and we've now introduced
Speaker 2: it in New York. You can't use NDAs for anything anymore.
Speaker 2: It's amazing. So it's not an option if you live
Speaker 2: and work in those states. And that is huge as
Speaker 2: we continue to move state to state to state, because
Speaker 2: what's happening is companies that are based in those states
Speaker 2: now they're kind of in a pickle because if they
Speaker 2: have employees all over globally, but they can't enforce NDAs
Speaker 2: for people who live in those three states, but they
Speaker 2: can make sure people are under NDAs everywhere else. A
Speaker 2: lot of big companies have changed their policy to take
Speaker 2: out NDAs for everyone, right.
Speaker 3: But I don't know why.
Speaker 1: I just have this feeling that you'll have a you'll
Speaker 1: claw us back at some point. I just have this
Speaker 1: film that Jogo that there'll be some law that's passed
Speaker 1: that includes where you used to work Fox, and that
Speaker 1: they'll have to publish if they'll they would have to
Speaker 1: public say you can talk about your story because they
Speaker 1: don't represent that anymore.
Speaker 3: Something.
Speaker 1: It has got to be a way that you will find.
Speaker 1: You'll find I would find a way to tell my
Speaker 1: story well, because I would make the people fight for
Speaker 1: me to tell my story. And the people say, like, unleash,
Speaker 1: show us the tapes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've said publicly that Fox has gone out and
Speaker 2: said that they've cleaned up their act. If that's the case, right,
Speaker 2: then let me out in my na right, But you
Speaker 2: don't let me out, so maybe you haven't cleaned up
Speaker 2: the act. I'm you know, the more progress we make,
Speaker 2: Bethany with these laws, the more pressure there will be
Speaker 2: to eventually pass a law to make them give up
Speaker 2: all their past people that they've silenced too.
Speaker 3: And when you're talking about Fox, you're talking about Fox News.
Speaker 2: That's what you know.
Speaker 1: Do you know what goes on with Fox Entertainment. I
Speaker 1: just did Snake Oil. I had a great experience, Like do.
Speaker 2: You know, I have no idea, but I do know
Speaker 2: that my nda is with the parent company, and so
Speaker 2: they try and entangle you so that if even one
Speaker 2: of those entities decided to let you talk, you're still
Speaker 2: screwed because the other two. So my third you're not
Speaker 2: going to believe this. The third person or group in
Speaker 2: my nda is Roger Ayls, who was my alleged predator
Speaker 2: who died, right But even though he's a dead mass,
Speaker 2: his wife Uh wow, Yeah, she would have to agree.
Speaker 2: How crazy is that she'd have to agree to let
Speaker 2: me out even though he's dead. That's that's how screwed
Speaker 2: up this country became with silencing its people. And so look,
Speaker 2: this movement this time isn't going away. So you're right.
Speaker 2: There is what we're hoping for with our work at
Speaker 2: Lift our Voices. That is that there will be this
Speaker 2: public outcry that people will say, we're not going to
Speaker 2: work at places that silence us anymore. Yeah. And in fact,
Speaker 2: this coming year, we're going to put out the first
Speaker 2: ever survey so that people will know companies that silence
Speaker 2: them and companies that don't. That'll be a huge resource
Speaker 2: for people to understand because it's the number one question
Speaker 2: I get. But it's also going to be a subtle
Speaker 2: nudge to companies to change their policies because they're going
Speaker 2: to get a bad grade for me and I come
Speaker 2: as a credible source on this issue. So if I
Speaker 2: say this company silences their people and I'm giving them
Speaker 2: an f that might spur them on to change their policies.
Speaker 1: And where are you saying all this? How do you
Speaker 1: where we're currently doing all the research right now? No,
Speaker 1: I mean, what's your current vehicle for communication? You're not
Speaker 1: on tell are you on television regularly? Like where are
Speaker 1: you saying all this? Whereas yea, you're here today talking
Speaker 1: about this, but where are people sharing.
Speaker 2: Ass TV conferences? Social media? You know you and I
Speaker 2: can do something together so you can help me get
Speaker 2: the word out and vice versa. But eventually this is
Speaker 2: going to be released sometime next year. First of it's kind,
Speaker 2: nobody else is judging companies using my metrics of whether
Speaker 2: or not they silence you, and I believe it's the
Speaker 2: silver bullet to equity.
Speaker 3: So what are some great companies?
Speaker 2: They're very few and far between, Like, what.
Speaker 1: Are companies that have jumped off the page of Airbnb
Speaker 1: is a great company and Airbnb is donated by the
Speaker 1: way to be strong and helped people.
Speaker 3: So we've worked with them. So that's I'm glad you
Speaker 3: said that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I can't vouch for what goes on
Speaker 2: inside of airbas you're saying, from your perspective and from
Speaker 2: my perspective, they don't use forced arbitration and they don't
Speaker 2: use NDAs amazing. And now now, of course, because of
Speaker 2: my laws, no company can use forced arbitration for sexual
Speaker 2: misconduct anymore. Right, But here's the problem, Bethany. They're not
Speaker 2: going to tell the employees that they don't have to
Speaker 2: tell the employees. So let's say you signed a contract
Speaker 2: ten years ago and it has an NDA and a
Speaker 2: forced arbitration clause, and you're being sexually harassed. You don't
Speaker 2: have to abide by the NDA or the forced arbitration anymore,
Speaker 2: but you may not know that. So me getting this
Speaker 2: word out is so important.
Speaker 1: I agree because at what the lawyers have said is
Speaker 1: happening with with Bravo, and I feel like the word
Speaker 1: arbitration has been around, it's everywhere, and you feel like
Speaker 1: arbitration is a scam.
Speaker 2: Here, Okay, here's what I want to hear about. Here's
Speaker 2: what it is. So arbitration was never intended to adjudicate
Speaker 2: human rights violations at work. It was it was like
Speaker 2: if I was your neighbor and you knocked over my
Speaker 2: fence with your car.
Speaker 3: Like the people's court exactly.
Speaker 2: Instead of clogging the court system, they came up with
Speaker 2: a process called arbitration for a three hundred dollars claim,
Speaker 2: so the judges wouldn't be bogged down with all these
Speaker 2: ridiculous cases. Okay, that was the point of arbitration. Go
Speaker 2: to an arbiter, work out your claims, pay your three
Speaker 2: hundred bucks, goodbye. Companies got smart about forty years ago
Speaker 2: and decided to start putting forced arbitration clauses in PA contracts,
Speaker 2: so if anything bad happened, nothing would ever come out
Speaker 2: because arbitration is a secret process interest so you couldn't
Speaker 2: openly sue. So what's happened over time with NBA's and
Speaker 2: forced arbitration is that America thought we had come so
Speaker 2: far in discrimination and sexual harassment all that because nobody
Speaker 2: was ever hearing about these cases. And so when I
Speaker 2: jumped off the cliff and then the mountain happened with
Speaker 2: all these people coming forward, the American public got pissed
Speaker 2: because they were like, wait a minute, I thought we
Speaker 2: had solved this. The reason that they didn't know about
Speaker 2: it was because it was all going to secrecy. All
Speaker 2: these cases, thousands, hundreds of thousands of them were going
Speaker 2: to force arbitration instead of an open court. Wow, So
Speaker 2: these people, And the scariest part about it is only
Speaker 2: two percent of all arbitration cases are found for the complainant.
Speaker 2: So why bother lawyers won't even take your case if
Speaker 2: you have a forced arbitration clause? And because it's a
Speaker 2: secret process, nobody knows that there's a predator who's going
Speaker 2: to arbitration and they get to keep working. You're fired,
Speaker 2: you never work again, you don't get you don't get
Speaker 2: any compensation. So the only reason you know about my story, Bethany,
Speaker 2: is because my lawyer, I happened to be able to
Speaker 2: have the resources to have brilliant lawyers, which not everybody can, okay,
Speaker 2: And they came up with a brilliant strategy to sue
Speaker 2: Roger Ayles personally to try to circumvent my forced arbitration
Speaker 2: clause that I had with the company.
Speaker 3: A strategy.
Speaker 2: It's the only way my case became public and not
Speaker 2: everyone has that opportunity or option. We arguably would not
Speaker 2: be in the me too movement if they had not
Speaker 2: thought of that, Okay. So forced arbitration is an unbelievable evil.
Speaker 2: Next year, eighty four percent of all Americans will be
Speaker 2: under it. Eighty four percent of us. That's an explosion
Speaker 2: from nineteen ninety one when only two percent of us.
Speaker 1: Was look at your contracts exactly, look at your contracts.
Speaker 2: And one third of all Americans sign NDAs on their
Speaker 2: first day of work. One third they think they're signing
Speaker 2: only to protect trade secrets where they work.
Speaker 1: So that's no, that's what Bravo just said. The NDA
Speaker 1: is just to protect storylines.
Speaker 3: But who cares?
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? But have a lawyer look
Speaker 2: at that, because let me tell you something, these NDA
Speaker 2: clauses don't scream to you. If something bad happens to
Speaker 2: you, you won't be able to talk about it. It just
Speaker 2: looks like you're never if you work at coke, you're
Speaker 2: not going to go across the street to Pepsi and
Speaker 2: give the recipe.
Speaker 3: No, it's but by the way, it's no, it's what
Speaker 3: Bravo's saying. They're saying.
Speaker 1: Of course, it was just to protect story Back to
Speaker 1: the cover your ass model, which who everything leaks in
Speaker 1: the media anyway, No one cares who Ramona sleeping with.
Speaker 1: It's not a secret because someone's leaked it to the media.
Speaker 1: So that's bullshit.
Speaker 2: I bet the NDA is broader than that. I bet
Speaker 2: it also means that anything bad that happens to anyone
Speaker 2: on set that they can't talk about it.
Speaker 3: No, you also can't sue other people.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 3: You can't sue other people that you work with.
Speaker 2: Sometimes people click on emails Bethany that they get from
Speaker 2: their company. Just from clicking on the email, they agree
Speaker 2: to forced arbitration.
Speaker 3: That's criminal, it's insane.
Speaker 2: They haven't even they haven't they don't even understand. Well,
Speaker 2: first of all, they didn't even get a chance to
Speaker 2: understand it because they just who doesn't click on an
Speaker 2: email from work?
Speaker 1: The government should be giving you grants to like have
Speaker 1: a lot of people under you to do this, Like
Speaker 1: this should be a real, like, you know, not for
Speaker 1: profit business.
Speaker 2: Well this is so. Lift our Voices is not for profit.
Speaker 2: But we are always in major fundraising mode because we're
Speaker 2: the only organization doing this work in the world. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and yes, we're trying to raise money to build out
Speaker 2: our infrastructure. I always say that I need to clone
Speaker 2: myself by like a thousand people because I have the
Speaker 2: capacity to do so much work, and I've been successful
Speaker 2: in it, but you need money to hire people.
Speaker 1: This has been cracked open, and I'm sure we won't
Speaker 1: do everything perfectly. There'll be some eggs broken to make
Speaker 1: an omelet like you didn't do it perfectly. You can't
Speaker 1: even tell your fucking story, so that's not perfect. But
Speaker 1: you've made a lot of progress in Amail.
Speaker 2: I've taken advantage of every possible thing that I did
Speaker 2: get out of that settle, Yeah, which was my voice
Speaker 2: on these issues. You know, I can't give you the
Speaker 2: details of what he said to me and what he
Speaker 2: did to me, and that doesn't really matter when I'm
Speaker 2: passing laws and.
Speaker 3: It's not just about you, that's what you're saying. It's
Speaker 3: not about you.
Speaker 1: It's not about what he said to you. That's gossip.
Speaker 1: You're talking about the whole systematic change.
Speaker 2: I want to make sure that Britain and my children
Speaker 2: are not silenced in the next generation. Yeah, okay, And
Speaker 2: we thought we had solved all this crap in our
Speaker 2: generation and guess what we were fooling the American public
Speaker 2: because it was all going to secrecy. Yes, So now
Speaker 2: I vow to the rest of the world that we're
Speaker 2: solving it now for our kids. And actually a lot
Speaker 2: of this starts with our young boys, because we do
Speaker 2: a really good job of raising up our girls. That's
Speaker 2: not what this is about. Men rule the world still, yes,
Speaker 2: and we need to get to those men to say
Speaker 2: at a young age, help us do this, Help lift
Speaker 2: us up. Stop silencing people in the workplace, help women.
Speaker 2: And so women can get in a room and go
Speaker 2: rah rah rah rah rah, and then go outside and
Speaker 2: feel empowered. But it doesn't matter really because at work,
Speaker 2: if we don't have men involved in this equation, we
Speaker 2: are not going to move the needle. Right. They have
Speaker 2: to help us, and one way they can help us
Speaker 2: is take away silencing mechanisms. Also pay women fairly and
Speaker 2: also promote them.
Speaker 1: Well in some ways too. You're not going to get
Speaker 1: them to necessarily care. You might get them to be
Speaker 1: proactive just to cover their s and that's fine too.
Speaker 1: Meaning I had someone, you know, they're not going to
Speaker 1: give a shit if.
Speaker 2: They have daughters.
Speaker 1: They might might, it's so abstract to them because they're
Speaker 1: so powerful. They don't think their daughters are gonna have
Speaker 1: to deal with it, you know what I'm saying. So,
Speaker 1: but I just ran into someone who I you know,
Speaker 1: I can tell you confidentially not on this podcast, that
Speaker 1: is probably the most powerful person in the entire entertainment industry.
Speaker 1: And they came to me to say, I want to
Speaker 1: hear about what you're doing, probably partially because they're scared.
Speaker 3: I don't really give a shit.
Speaker 1: They were like, I want you to talk to my
Speaker 1: top management, which I did, and you could tell that
Speaker 1: they were all also partially uncover their ass mode, pretending
Speaker 1: they've already been doing all these things. But there the
Speaker 1: wheels were turning, and I was like.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, you're you. You.
Speaker 1: You would be smart if you got on board because
Speaker 1: you have exposure, and this train's going with or without you.
Speaker 2: That's the same phrase I use. Really, Oh my god,
Speaker 2: we have so many synergies. I always say to company CEOs.
Speaker 2: The train has left the station, so get on board
Speaker 2: with the work.
Speaker 3: Get out of the way. You're gonna get hit or
Speaker 3: you're gonna get hit.
Speaker 2: That's right, yeah, because there's no going backwards anymore.
Speaker 3: No, it's happening.
Speaker 1: And that's why you have this power because you just
Speaker 1: know because you lit the match. And I felt that,
Speaker 1: and sometimes I don't even know exactly what I'm working towards,
Speaker 1: but I know that I'm going in the right direction.
Speaker 1: So wow, okay, so all right, so tell me you're
Speaker 1: this is the last question. You're a rose and thorn
Speaker 1: of your career.
Speaker 2: Well, the thorn is obviously my experience at Fox News,
Speaker 2: Uh therapy because of it, Like my therapy has been
Speaker 2: all of my work talking to all the other survivors
Speaker 2: and the work I do every day. I have to
Speaker 2: wake up optimistic every single day.
Speaker 3: But you're not, like now currently traumatized from what happened.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, okay now, because I'm so embedded in what
Speaker 2: I'm doing, and that's my therapy is like I know
Speaker 2: I'm making the world better.
Speaker 1: No. And you also, once you get that validation of vindication,
Speaker 1: it does release something. It probably took a while to
Speaker 1: get it off of you, but it did.
Speaker 2: But but I'm going to tell you that my rose
Speaker 2: is also working at Fox News right because it gave
Speaker 2: me the opportunity to transform my life into advocacy that
Speaker 2: I never ever ever thought i'd be doing. It's not
Speaker 2: like you, when you're a successful person like you and
Speaker 2: I have been, It's not like you aspire to put
Speaker 2: poster child for harassment in the workplace on your resume. No,
Speaker 2: but I've taken full advantage. And a friend said to
Speaker 2: me after I came forward seven years ago, she said,
Speaker 2: you know, something good is going to come from this.
Speaker 2: And at the time I was like, you're full of shit,
Speaker 2: Nothing good is going to come of this. But you
Speaker 2: know what, she was right.
Speaker 3: She was right.
Speaker 1: And also I always say to people, you don't have
Speaker 1: to know where you're going to. Just get on the road,
Speaker 1: get in the car, plan out something, but it probably
Speaker 1: won't be what you planned. You'll hit a roadbock, you'll
Speaker 1: run out of gas. Just like get in the goddamn car,
Speaker 1: and always beforeward moving. It doesn't mean like I'm waiting
Speaker 1: for life to happen to me. That's not what it means.
Speaker 1: It means like you worked your ass off at Miss America,
Speaker 1: you worked your ass off at the small market, you
Speaker 1: worked your ass off at Stanford. You're a work your
Speaker 1: ass off person. And that's really what I think is
Speaker 1: the key to anyone's success. Not social media, not a filter,
Speaker 1: not a cute little tagline, not a reality show. It's
Speaker 1: working your ass off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you have those same characteristics I feel like
Speaker 2: we could finish each other's sentences.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Reah, now no, and I'm a track. I was
Speaker 1: talking to Juju Chang from Nightline yesterday about this because
Speaker 1: I am very attracted and friendly with strong women, but
Speaker 1: interestingly that really have a strong voice in media, like
Speaker 1: I love Hotecopy, I always have I connect with her.
Speaker 1: I really have a good relationship with Kelly Rippo, with
Speaker 1: Katie Couric, I connected to Gail King, like. I was
Speaker 1: thinking that a lot of the women, not a lot,
Speaker 1: like ninety nine point nine percent of the women that
Speaker 1: I respect in this industry are in similar have similar
Speaker 1: back grounds to you, and there's got to be something
Speaker 1: to it. There has to be a parallel to that
Speaker 1: work ethic and what that.
Speaker 2: Takes completely in a world. Judge Judy to the to.
Speaker 3: The mix, Yeah do you know her? Yeah? Oh so
Speaker 3: you'll okay, so you can.
Speaker 1: We'recause I'm going to have a power woman's dinner party
Speaker 1: here and invite a group and I would die.
Speaker 2: I would plots if Judge Judy comes over. I just
Speaker 2: ran into her in in our town. Oh okay, and uh,
Speaker 2: she's the most lovely person ever. And by the way
Speaker 2: you quoted her, earlier, like she for us beyond, Yeah, beyond.
Speaker 2: So she would.
Speaker 3: She's a tough bitch, she yeah.
Speaker 2: So she would be a great addition to the party.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 1: Okay, amazing, that'd be even more interesting. All right, great,
Speaker 1: so we'll talk about that. Yay, Give me a hug.