1
00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,560
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stephane.

2
00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:19,720
Speaker 1: Never told you a protection of iHeartRadio, and today we are.

3
00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,640
Speaker 1: It is the weekend before Halloween. Because we've been traveling

4
00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:24,240
Speaker 1: a lot lately.

5
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,040
Speaker 2: I can't speak for Samantha, but my plans are to

6
00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,120
Speaker 2: carve a pumpkin and watch a lot of horror movies.

7
00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,480
Speaker 2: I do have one more haunted house that I'm doing

8
00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:32,480
Speaker 2: a Monday, but that's it.

9
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,640
Speaker 3: That's all day officially the day before Halloween. Then huh, yes,

10
00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:39,840
Speaker 3: it's gonna be crowded. Y'all wanna have fun?

11
00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:40,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're gonna.

12
00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:41,599
Speaker 5: I do not want to go.

13
00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,519
Speaker 2: No, I figured you didn't, so I hope you're not offended.

14
00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:47,000
Speaker 2: I didn't ask you because I feel like I know

15
00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:48,239
Speaker 2: you well enough to.

16
00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:49,800
Speaker 5: Know every you do it.

17
00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,000
Speaker 3: I'm like, you have fun, bye, Yes, I will invite

18
00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,040
Speaker 3: me one you and I was like no.

19
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:56,920
Speaker 5: That's when I was like never.

20
00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I do love I love Halloween.

21
00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,520
Speaker 4: I have all of my like, I have my pumpkin.

22
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,720
Speaker 2: I'm gonna carve it, as I said, this weekend, and

23
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:07,039
Speaker 2: I've got my pumpkin candles.

24
00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,160
Speaker 4: I like the vibe of it that I am tired.

25
00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:10,840
Speaker 4: I'm tired.

26
00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,840
Speaker 2: I've been trampling a lot, and I'm just gonna stay in.

27
00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,080
Speaker 2: But one of the things I think about a lot

28
00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,600
Speaker 2: with Halloween are foods. I think a lot about kind

29
00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:27,240
Speaker 2: of like fall foods, autumnal foods, if you will. And

30
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,760
Speaker 2: we did this episode a while back about kind of

31
00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:35,520
Speaker 2: these old traditions around food and Halloween, like using an

32
00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:40,640
Speaker 2: apple to predict your future or something like that. And

33
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,240
Speaker 2: as I have been speed watching all of my horror movies,

34
00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,000
Speaker 2: I have seen that in a lot of a lot

35
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,840
Speaker 2: of them. But also in this one, we talk about

36
00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:55,120
Speaker 2: gender differences in costumes. And I just recently saw us

37
00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,360
Speaker 2: side by sight, and it wasn't even about gender differences

38
00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,960
Speaker 2: in costumes, just a side by side of two costumes

39
00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,560
Speaker 2: of the same thing, and the costume Beer Girls was

40
00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:11,120
Speaker 2: much more sexualized. So this is still going going strong.

41
00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,600
Speaker 2: But yeah, we hope that you have a fun, safe weekend,

42
00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,840
Speaker 2: whatever you celebrate or don't celebrate, And we would love

43
00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,760
Speaker 2: to hear about any of your traditions, any of your costumes.

44
00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,120
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, yes, that.

45
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,520
Speaker 2: Would be amazing. But in the meantime, please enjoy this

46
00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:37,280
Speaker 2: classic episode. Hey, this is Annie.

47
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,040
Speaker 4: And Samantha, I know, come to stuff I've never told

48
00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:40,279
Speaker 4: you production of iHeartRadio.

49
00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:54,160
Speaker 2: So, Samantha, the other day, I was talking about this

50
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,280
Speaker 2: old game I used to play that I'll get into

51
00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,520
Speaker 2: you more in a second, but it was a predictive game,

52
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,280
Speaker 2: right of learning who your husband are, getting a clue

53
00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,160
Speaker 2: who your future husband would be.

54
00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,800
Speaker 4: And you had no idea what I was talking about.

55
00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:08,760
Speaker 5: Still don't.

56
00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:10,840
Speaker 4: Have you.

57
00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,200
Speaker 2: I mean, did you do anything like that, like where

58
00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,799
Speaker 2: you were trying to figure out any clues about who

59
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,760
Speaker 2: your future partner would be.

60
00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,880
Speaker 3: I mean we played the match game and then the

61
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,480
Speaker 3: little uh fortune teller.

62
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,520
Speaker 4: Game or the Fortune Teller. Yeah, yeah, those games.

63
00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:29,920
Speaker 3: But I have never had a real tradition. I know that

64
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,520
Speaker 3: there is one for Marti Gras. Is it a Martini

65
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,080
Speaker 3: Gras cake where they have a baby, a ring and

66
00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,560
Speaker 3: something else in a cake? And if you find that

67
00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,960
Speaker 3: then those are supposed to be significant of sorts. Those

68
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:44,760
Speaker 3: are the only things that I know, and I don't

69
00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,000
Speaker 3: know if that's Marti Gras.

70
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:47,119
Speaker 5: Is it Marti Gras?

71
00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,080
Speaker 2: Marti Gras has the baby cake? I believe there is

72
00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,560
Speaker 2: a version that has like a a ring or something.

73
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,160
Speaker 5: I know we did it at a wet like a shower,

74
00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,040
Speaker 5: and I thought it was really weird because I've never

75
00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,960
Speaker 5: seen that. And that was a college friend.

76
00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:05,040
Speaker 3: Who they did this for at a bridal shower. Bridal

77
00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,680
Speaker 3: ludgeonals looking around like what so I was so confused.

78
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,160
Speaker 3: So obviously I don't know these traditions very well.

79
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,960
Speaker 4: Well, you are in for Age s Reach just all

80
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,000
Speaker 4: the time for Halloween. Uh, yeah, it is interesting.

81
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,360
Speaker 2: I believe I've heard of that cake thing you're talking

82
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,400
Speaker 2: about too, and I believe it's supposed to predict who's

83
00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:29,200
Speaker 2: getting married next. Okay, yes, similar to catching the bouquet

84
00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,000
Speaker 2: at a wedding, which is hilarious for me because I'm

85
00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,760
Speaker 2: very competitive and I've like always caught it. Oh, I

86
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,240
Speaker 2: have no interest in getting married. Oh I'm so competitive.

87
00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,359
Speaker 2: I'm like the person that's like bending now.

88
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,240
Speaker 4: Here we go and then all these dudes will come

89
00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,280
Speaker 4: up to you afterwards and they're like congratulations, and you're like, yeah.

90
00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,680
Speaker 2: I caught it, clearly not what they're talking about.

91
00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,680
Speaker 5: Oh that's MS king cakes, king.

92
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:55,159
Speaker 4: Cakes, kink.

93
00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,400
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean normally in my experience, kin cake

94
00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,919
Speaker 2: doesn't have it is a Marty grat cake, but it

95
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,000
Speaker 2: doesn't have the ring but yes, I think, and.

96
00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,479
Speaker 4: So baby, right, James, it's a baby. Yeah, okay, but yes.

97
00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,560
Speaker 2: Since Halloween is right around the corner as we're recording

98
00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,880
Speaker 2: this and as you listen to it, if you listen

99
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,080
Speaker 2: to it right when it comes out, we wanted to

100
00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,840
Speaker 2: dig into some Halloween traditions that involve women and some

101
00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,880
Speaker 2: more modern takes on these traditions or some more modern

102
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,560
Speaker 2: things that are going on, including games and costumes.

103
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:25,120
Speaker 4: And one of them is.

104
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,919
Speaker 2: This sort of food tradition of like a food predicting

105
00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,320
Speaker 2: who you're going to marry. And it is one thing

106
00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,800
Speaker 2: that I've been really curious about this idea, and especially

107
00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,400
Speaker 2: around Halloween, of these traditions around women eating or using

108
00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,360
Speaker 2: certain food so that they can figure out something about

109
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,800
Speaker 2: their future spouse, and it's usually a husband.

110
00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:47,119
Speaker 4: It's very heteronormative.

111
00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,920
Speaker 2: And this is something that I come across surprisingly regularly

112
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,560
Speaker 2: over the other podcast I do, Savor, which is all

113
00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:56,520
Speaker 2: about food and drink.

114
00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 4: We just did an episode on Rosemary and there's a

115
00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:00,280
Speaker 4: high le.

116
00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,320
Speaker 2: Specific game girls used to play, and there's even a

117
00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,000
Speaker 2: more modern version where you put like your phone and

118
00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,000
Speaker 2: it has to have a picture of Rosemary on the

119
00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,279
Speaker 2: screen under your bed. If you do, you'll dream about

120
00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,720
Speaker 2: your future husband. But before phones, or you could get

121
00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,760
Speaker 2: a printed picture, because that also works. People would put

122
00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,040
Speaker 2: sprigs of rosemary under their pillow. Girls specifically would put

123
00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,200
Speaker 2: sprigs of rosemary under their pillows. And if you dreamt

124
00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,840
Speaker 2: and you saw the blurry face of a man, that.

125
00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,560
Speaker 4: Was your future husband. But if it was a clear face,

126
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:33,599
Speaker 4: that's not him.

127
00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,280
Speaker 2: You stay away from that guy, which I love because

128
00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:44,040
Speaker 2: it's so vague. Okay, Yes, Another tradition involves a ring

129
00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,000
Speaker 2: hidden in a potato indicating who will get married next,

130
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,000
Speaker 2: or yes, the one I did that I mentioned at

131
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:51,799
Speaker 2: the top, and I think I've mentioned a few times

132
00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,200
Speaker 2: on this show. I used to peel an apple and

133
00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,760
Speaker 2: you toss the peel for some reason. I remember it

134
00:06:57,800 --> 00:06:59,840
Speaker 2: specifically being over your left shoulder, but I don't think

135
00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:00,680
Speaker 2: it matters.

136
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:02,880
Speaker 4: Well, I guess it really doesn't matter in a lot

137
00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:03,279
Speaker 4: of ways.

138
00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:08,440
Speaker 2: But it was supposed to form the initial of the

139
00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,440
Speaker 2: first name of your future husband if you've left it

140
00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,720
Speaker 2: outside for a couple of hours. And I got a

141
00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,200
Speaker 2: D or perhaps a C, which I do think are

142
00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,120
Speaker 2: like the easiest right letters.

143
00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,000
Speaker 4: It was gonna for right.

144
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,520
Speaker 3: Or oh yeah, I need to know someone got a Y.

145
00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:25,560
Speaker 5: I need to know someone got a Q.

146
00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,760
Speaker 3: I need to know if someone got like any of them, Like,

147
00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,640
Speaker 3: did you get any of those letters?

148
00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,200
Speaker 5: Because that would be more shocking yes for me?

149
00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:35,640
Speaker 4: Yes?

150
00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,119
Speaker 5: Or how many of those people who actually did marry

151
00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,720
Speaker 5: a D C or O, which I imagine is the

152
00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,840
Speaker 5: or L or I like, those are the people.

153
00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,080
Speaker 4: We'll see. I mean, I got my whole futurehead of me.

154
00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,080
Speaker 2: Of course, these are they're games, They're just games. It

155
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,200
Speaker 2: makes sense to me that girls who we've long taught

156
00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,480
Speaker 2: that getting married is the end all, be all and

157
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,960
Speaker 2: for a good or some history something their future and

158
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:02,800
Speaker 2: security and.

159
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:03,920
Speaker 4: Happiness depended on.

160
00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,040
Speaker 2: I would have these rituals around predicting who it was

161
00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,440
Speaker 2: they were going to get married to. I believe we've

162
00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,679
Speaker 2: talked before about mash like that was a really popular

163
00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:14,760
Speaker 2: thing that right, Oh.

164
00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,640
Speaker 3: I played match. Apparently I call it a different thing because.

165
00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:18,960
Speaker 4: I didn't want to stand for it.

166
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,000
Speaker 5: Didn't you want a shack, so I got a cabin.

167
00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,000
Speaker 4: So you changed the.

168
00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:25,880
Speaker 5: House.

169
00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:27,360
Speaker 4: I love it.

170
00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:34,120
Speaker 2: You made the rules fit you almost a shack. That's fantastic.

171
00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,160
Speaker 2: I love that says a lot about you. I really

172
00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:37,960
Speaker 2: appreciate it.

173
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:44,520
Speaker 5: I mean my own future, dammit, I love it.

174
00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,199
Speaker 3: But anyway, so many of these games were ideally performed

175
00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:54,240
Speaker 3: on celebratory days when seasons were changing, like Halloween. I

176
00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,640
Speaker 3: know there's a lot of autumn festivals, and the Maypole

177
00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,160
Speaker 3: thing is very seasonal as well, like spring, right, spring, summer. Yeah,

178
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,680
Speaker 3: so when people believe that the veil between the living

179
00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:09,000
Speaker 3: and the dead was thinner, potentially allowing them to see

180
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,120
Speaker 3: into the future, to get some sense of what was coming.

181
00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,440
Speaker 5: Done, done, done so.

182
00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,600
Speaker 3: Halloween and its predecessor festivals in Europe also marked the

183
00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,920
Speaker 3: end of the harvest, beginning of winter less sunlight hours

184
00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,840
Speaker 3: periods some worried may one day never end.

185
00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,480
Speaker 5: I feel like that's plot to a show. Which show

186
00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:30,679
Speaker 5: is that?

187
00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,280
Speaker 3: To that end, people would celebrate and make offerings to

188
00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,080
Speaker 3: gods and spirits, and food was often a part of

189
00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,000
Speaker 3: all of this, including something called the dumb cake, though

190
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,079
Speaker 3: it came around a bit later.

191
00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,360
Speaker 2: Yes, and shout out to Jan who's been listening to

192
00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,240
Speaker 2: all the backlog, and it's been wonderful to hear hear

193
00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,959
Speaker 2: from Jan as they work through from bringing this one

194
00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,800
Speaker 2: to our attention, IM pointing us out to this very

195
00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,760
Speaker 2: helpful and fun article over at Atlas Obscura written by

196
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,760
Speaker 2: Ann Ubank about this whole thing. Also shout out to

197
00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,839
Speaker 2: listener Renee for calling in about using the word dumb

198
00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,720
Speaker 2: and how hurtful it can be in the deaf community.

199
00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,319
Speaker 2: And we're going to try to do better in the future.

200
00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 2: This is the name of this cake, but we're going

201
00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,160
Speaker 2: to try to use it as little as possible, but

202
00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,280
Speaker 2: always appreciate these notes so we can do better.

203
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,800
Speaker 3: Oh bt dubs, because it just reminded me of the fact.

204
00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,920
Speaker 3: So I just rewatch American Horror Story some of the

205
00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,040
Speaker 3: old seasons and they do talk about Halloween and the

206
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,480
Speaker 3: fact that during the season of the Witch Season, rather

207
00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,840
Speaker 3: where Madame Laurie coming back, and she was like, Oh,

208
00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,319
Speaker 3: it's Halloween already, Do I need to set out the

209
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,840
Speaker 3: lanterns and get ready for the bonfires and the festival

210
00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,200
Speaker 3: essentially she talked about. I was like, Oh yeah, that

211
00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,480
Speaker 3: used to be the whole Jaquelineer thing. But then a

212
00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:53,720
Speaker 3: listener also pointed out the fact that we forgot to

213
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,559
Speaker 3: mention Sarah Paulson being a screen queen.

214
00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,480
Speaker 5: I was like, oh yeah, because she.

215
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,920
Speaker 3: Has that trend going on on dot saying help me

216
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,280
Speaker 3: the killer is escaping. Okay, this just reminded me of

217
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:06,880
Speaker 3: all of those things, so I feel like I needed

218
00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,160
Speaker 3: to say that, and thank you to our listener for

219
00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:10,120
Speaker 3: reminding me of that.

220
00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:10,760
Speaker 5: Keep going.

221
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:17,040
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, she did appear on some list Yes, okay.

222
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,240
Speaker 2: So from the seventeen hundreds to nineteen hundreds, unmarried women

223
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,480
Speaker 2: in the UK and North America would take part in

224
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:28,600
Speaker 2: this baking ritual to divine their future husbands. As far

225
00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,880
Speaker 2: as games go, it was more of a spooky sleepover game,

226
00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,240
Speaker 2: kind of like Bloody Mary, with the goal of seeing

227
00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,880
Speaker 2: your future husband in your dreams. That's a recurring theme

228
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,520
Speaker 2: is it's like in your dreams you're going to see

229
00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,720
Speaker 2: this person. The origins of it are hard to pin down,

230
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,000
Speaker 2: but it was probably first played in or around Scotland,

231
00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,120
Speaker 2: perhaps a riff on eating bread on Shrove Tuesday to

232
00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,720
Speaker 2: see your future spouse. Though again, different versions of this

233
00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,720
Speaker 2: game have existed around the world for pretty much forever,

234
00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,439
Speaker 2: and listeners, we would love to hear you have any

235
00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,040
Speaker 2: experience with any of these, or if you have any

236
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,720
Speaker 2: history in your country with any of these, please please

237
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,240
Speaker 2: let us know. The first known written description of this

238
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,800
Speaker 2: cake appeared in a sixteen eighty five book on witchcraft

239
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:19,120
Speaker 2: by George Sinclair called Satan's Invisible World discovered. Sinclair, a

240
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,280
Speaker 2: demonologist and mathematician, likened it to a very silly and

241
00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,520
Speaker 2: potentially dangerous superstition the world discovered.

242
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,480
Speaker 5: I know, that's the whole thing, all right.

243
00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,240
Speaker 3: So in the early days they were certainly viewed by

244
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:39,720
Speaker 3: Christians as an unsavory remnants of pagan religions that would

245
00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,440
Speaker 3: bring evil down upon any fool to partake in them.

246
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,200
Speaker 5: You're fool, any you're one of those, now, I know.

247
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,120
Speaker 5: I didn't know. It's damned you.

248
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:51,560
Speaker 4: Sorry.

249
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,520
Speaker 3: For instance, take this quote from the seventeen fifties book

250
00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,240
Speaker 3: God's Revenge against the Breakers of the Ten Commandments, that

251
00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,000
Speaker 3: execrable way of making what is termed a dumb cake

252
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,000
Speaker 3: with a thousand other tricks in order to see or

253
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,600
Speaker 3: dream of their sweethearts, which are still too much in

254
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:14,839
Speaker 3: use among young maidens, in in order to satisfy their

255
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,880
Speaker 3: insatiable curiosity and inexcusable impatience.

256
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,640
Speaker 4: Inexcusable in patience.

257
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,440
Speaker 3: How dare the take on such witchcraft?

258
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,760
Speaker 5: I'm very bad at this.

259
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, I thought it was great. I thought it

260
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:33,680
Speaker 2: was great. I mean, I guess you should put a

261
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,800
Speaker 2: note in here. Like again, it's really easy to make

262
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,560
Speaker 2: fun of things like this because it sounds silly, but

263
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:42,880
Speaker 2: I did the same thing, and especially at this time,

264
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,360
Speaker 2: your whole future was really as a young girl writing

265
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:53,240
Speaker 2: on this future sweetheart or spouse, right, So it just

266
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:54,839
Speaker 2: really really makes sense to me. And I know we've

267
00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,160
Speaker 2: talked about witches and witchcraft and especially women around that,

268
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,400
Speaker 2: and you know, violence, it led to violence, and all

269
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:07,880
Speaker 2: the suspicion of what usually just young girls or maybe

270
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,360
Speaker 2: beliefs that weren't didn't fit into this very strict idea

271
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:11,160
Speaker 2: of Christianity.

272
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,760
Speaker 4: So it's yeah, just a note, right. This guy, I'm

273
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,120
Speaker 4: sure was terrible. He sounds like a real piece of work,

274
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,560
Speaker 4: a real piece of work he does. No one's too

275
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,120
Speaker 4: sure where the name came from. Either.

276
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,360
Speaker 2: Some suspect it comes from an older definition for dumb,

277
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,200
Speaker 2: meaning silent. Others think it might be derived from the

278
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:40,160
Speaker 2: Middle English definition for doom, meaning fate or destiny. But

279
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,360
Speaker 2: wherever it came from, it was incredibly popular for a

280
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,640
Speaker 2: couple of centuries in the UK and North America, to

281
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,760
Speaker 2: the point accounts of it appeared in news stories, folklore, anthologies,

282
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,240
Speaker 2: and even research papers. These accounts paint a general picture

283
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,600
Speaker 2: of how it went. Late in the night, maybe around midnight,

284
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,200
Speaker 2: two or three girls gave together to bake a cake

285
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,280
Speaker 2: in complete silence.

286
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,640
Speaker 4: And side note, I love how many of these games

287
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,840
Speaker 4: involve complete silence, almost as if the parents created them

288
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:11,440
Speaker 4: or something.

289
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,360
Speaker 2: The ingredients were simple, typically including flour, salt, and water.

290
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,800
Speaker 2: Each girl then wrote their initials into the cake, and

291
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,240
Speaker 2: then it was placed into the oven to bake again

292
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,040
Speaker 2: total silence. Once done, the girls pulled the cake out

293
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,680
Speaker 2: of the oven and broke it, perhaps each taking a bite.

294
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,720
Speaker 4: Then they walked backwards.

295
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,520
Speaker 2: To their beds, placing their piece of cake under their

296
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,680
Speaker 2: pillows and going to sleep so that they could dream

297
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:41,080
Speaker 2: of their future husband.

298
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,480
Speaker 5: So they didn't eat it. They spit it out and

299
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:45,440
Speaker 5: put it under their bed.

300
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,760
Speaker 2: Sometimes I think they took a bite, but there was

301
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,160
Speaker 2: still a piece left to put.

302
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:51,840
Speaker 4: Under the pillow.

303
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 5: Sounds messy.

304
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,480
Speaker 2: It was a harder cake than what we're used to.

305
00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:00,640
Speaker 2: It was kind of a tougher Yeah, all right, it's checking.

306
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, And as you're talking about, yeah, I can't imagine

307
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,440
Speaker 3: what these processes were like. Because if you didn't dream

308
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 3: of someone, that means you're doomed, right.

309
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:14,600
Speaker 2: I'm sure that it wasn't a It sounds like aus.

310
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,240
Speaker 2: We're going to get into it in a second. It

311
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,640
Speaker 2: was kind of scary no matter what. If you saw someone,

312
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:23,960
Speaker 2: it was kind of scary. If you didn't see someone,

313
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,040
Speaker 2: it was kind of scary. There's a lot of fear

314
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,120
Speaker 2: around it, which again also makes sense to me if

315
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,600
Speaker 2: this was something you truly believed. But also the Atlas

316
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,960
Speaker 2: Obscura article I mentioned earlier, the author and a friend

317
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,120
Speaker 2: attempted this and it was funny because she was like,

318
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:40,800
Speaker 2: I dreamed of.

319
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,200
Speaker 4: Nothing, not a damn thing.

320
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, so that would be the less frightening outcome.

321
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:48,960
Speaker 1: Right.

322
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,520
Speaker 3: So in some versions, the husband was supposed to show up,

323
00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,000
Speaker 3: and here's a quote from an eighteen sixteen description. Man,

324
00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,960
Speaker 3: we have good records on this quote. A few minutes

325
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,640
Speaker 3: after midnight, a husband of her, who was to be

326
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,399
Speaker 3: first married, will appear to lay his hand on the

327
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,399
Speaker 3: part of the cake marked with her name.

328
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,199
Speaker 4: That does sound a little creepy to me.

329
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:11,200
Speaker 5: Why are you in my bedroom?

330
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,680
Speaker 4: Come on? Oh?

331
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,320
Speaker 2: And speaking of sometimes the boyfriends were pretty annoyed at

332
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,680
Speaker 2: being summoned in some versions of these, as in this

333
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,840
Speaker 2: nineteen thirteen article about folklore Out of England by Angelina Parker.

334
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:26,760
Speaker 4: Quote.

335
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,080
Speaker 2: An old lady once told me that a girl in

336
00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,400
Speaker 2: this way brought her future husband, who was a soldier,

337
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,720
Speaker 2: into the room, and in passing through the doorway, he

338
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,840
Speaker 2: broke his sword in two. The girl picked up the

339
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,480
Speaker 2: broken piece and kept it after she had been married

340
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,199
Speaker 2: to him some years. In turning out her trunk, she

341
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 2: came across it and showed it to her husband, and

342
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,600
Speaker 2: he was so angry he could hardly forgive her. He

343
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,719
Speaker 2: told her he suffered dreadful agonies during the time she

344
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 2: forced him to appear, although he did not then know

345
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:54,680
Speaker 2: of the reason.

346
00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,040
Speaker 5: The way to blame a woman.

347
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,600
Speaker 2: True, true, true, true, these mysterious agonies, it must have

348
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:05,360
Speaker 2: been you.

349
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,760
Speaker 4: That's the only explanation.

350
00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:11,639
Speaker 5: That could have been a whole plot point.

351
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,240
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I've ever seen, like a horror version

352
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,159
Speaker 2: story of what we think is a romance and then

353
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,159
Speaker 2: it turns out to be it was very painful for

354
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 2: the other.

355
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,720
Speaker 4: Person involved, or something. I think I've seen.

356
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 2: Some fairy tale versions that are similar but not quite

357
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 2: mm hm. In another version of this game, a dark

358
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,200
Speaker 2: shadow would appear upon the breaking of the bread, chasing

359
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,600
Speaker 2: the girls, and the only salvation from a mysterious but

360
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,720
Speaker 2: surely terrifying fate was to jump straight into bed again.

361
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:56,640
Speaker 4: I love how many of these.

362
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:58,480
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm right, but it just feels

363
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,160
Speaker 2: like parents trying to get their.

364
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,280
Speaker 4: Is go to sleep and be quiet, get into that bed.

365
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,879
Speaker 5: He go straight to bed, or your future husband's going

366
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:09,359
Speaker 5: to come and chase.

367
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,080
Speaker 4: You, terrify you. Uh huh.

368
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 2: And at least once, making one of these cakes did

369
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,919
Speaker 2: lead to disastrous real world consequences. Three girls working at

370
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,200
Speaker 2: an English estate accidentally made their cake using a poisonous ingredient.

371
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,880
Speaker 2: That night, they woke members of the estate with their

372
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:32,680
Speaker 2: agonized screaming. One actually died, the other two survived, only

373
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,480
Speaker 2: to be derided in the news as quote two deluded females.

374
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,800
Speaker 2: But again, as one writer put it in eighteen forty nine,

375
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:43,840
Speaker 2: a young maiden will go through a great deal in

376
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,200
Speaker 2: order to get some kind of answer to a question

377
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 2: that so deeply involves her happiness.

378
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,920
Speaker 3: Here's a description of the whole thing by Charles Dick

379
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 3: from nineteen eleven.

380
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 5: Quote.

381
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,680
Speaker 3: The two must go to the larder and jointly get

382
00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,439
Speaker 3: the various ingredients. First, they get a bowl, each holding

383
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,920
Speaker 3: it and wash and dry it together. Then each gets

384
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 3: a spoonful of flour, a spoonful of water, and a

385
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:07,760
Speaker 3: little salt.

386
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:08,960
Speaker 5: When making the.

387
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,479
Speaker 3: Cake, they must stand on something they have never stood

388
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,920
Speaker 3: on before. They must mix it together and roll it.

389
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,280
Speaker 3: Then they draw a line across the middle of the

390
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,879
Speaker 3: cake and each girl cuts her initials, each on opposite

391
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,520
Speaker 3: sides of the line. Then both put it in the

392
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 3: oven and bake it. It seems like a really big

393
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:26,680
Speaker 3: bonding time.

394
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 5: Annie. Should we try this?

395
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:29,240
Speaker 4: I think we should.

396
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 5: I think we should.

397
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:31,840
Speaker 4: The silence far will be hard, and if we have

398
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:33,720
Speaker 4: to walk back anywhere that I'm done for.

399
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, because if I have to go down some stairs, no, no.

400
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 2: So this is actually the one I believe that the

401
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,680
Speaker 2: Atlas Obscura article that they used, and my favorite part

402
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,800
Speaker 2: was them trying to find something to stand on that

403
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 2: they'd never stood before.

404
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,120
Speaker 5: Can we get a piece of carpet that we just buy?

405
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,199
Speaker 2: I'm sure, Okay, I think I could find things in

406
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:57,719
Speaker 2: your apartment.

407
00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:59,879
Speaker 4: I have to run? Yeah?

408
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 5: Do I have to go to someone's house I've never

409
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,359
Speaker 5: been before and never stand in front of that place?

410
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,680
Speaker 2: I think the friend had an easier time finding something.

411
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 2: Oh no, okay, no, that's too much that I got

412
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:15,200
Speaker 2: to put the foot down.

413
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 4: Well, if we revisited, I think that could be fun.

414
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 4: We'll let you listen. There's know how it goes.

415
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 5: If we find out.

416
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, But for now, let's talk about bobbing for

417
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 2: apples and the related game Snap Apple, which sounds slightly terrifying.

418
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 4: I can't wait to talk about it.

419
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 2: As a summer slash fall fruit especially, and here we're talking,

420
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 2: we're still talking about mostly European North American traditions. Apples

421
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 2: were often involved in early Halloween celebrations and used ensue

422
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 2: saying rituals. On top of that, they have a long

423
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 2: history of being seen as somewhat magical. I'm sure, like,

424
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:52,439
Speaker 2: off the top of my head, I'm already think it's

425
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 2: so white. There's just a bunch of like eve, there's

426
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,640
Speaker 2: a lot of imagery around apples. You can go see

427
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 2: that episode Favorite did on Apples. We go into that

428
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 2: and why that is a little bit so if you

429
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 2: want to learn more. As mentioned earlier, there's the using

430
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 2: of the apple peel to ascertain the initial of your

431
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 2: future spouse. Another though was bobbing for apples a tradition

432
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 2: that most likely originated in Europe and perhaps specifically Britain.

433
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,880
Speaker 2: It started off a bit differently than what we do now.

434
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,360
Speaker 2: Have you ever bought for apple Samantha.

435
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 5: No, nope. It just didn't seem sanitary.

436
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,880
Speaker 2: I think i've I mean especially now, I'm like, what

437
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 2: were we thinking? I think I've only done it once,

438
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 2: and I'm so bad. I never got an apple and

439
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 2: I hated it. It was pretty miserable to be honest, have.

440
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 5: A giant mouth, uh huh, and then also really good teeth,

441
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 5: and I do not have either one of them. Well,

442
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,360
Speaker 5: I have a big mouth, but you know what I mean?

443
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean now I have with my front fake juice.

444
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 4: I would never ever tip something like this.

445
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 5: My teeth are so sensitive. I couldn't do it.

446
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's highly it like bounces away, it

447
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 2: bobs away. But there there was never any who's your

448
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 2: future spouse going to be element when I've thought of it,

449
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 2: or that one time that I played it.

450
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 4: It was just can you get the apple? But there

451
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 4: did used to be.

452
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 2: In one version of this tradition, as it used to go,

453
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 2: girls and women would secretly mark the apples and put

454
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 2: them in a barrel of water. Then potential matches would

455
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,679
Speaker 2: dunk their heads into the water and bite into an

456
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: apple as a way to look into romantic futures or

457
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 2: bring people together. However, in some parts of Scotland, bobbing

458
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 2: for apples once and still does. Listeners please write in

459
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 2: if you know share the same name as the practice

460
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: of dunking women.

461
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 4: In water to test if they were witches.

462
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, that makes sense and that's how apple.

463
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's also interesting to me. Again, this all

464
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,360
Speaker 2: makes sense in terms of a game people would play,

465
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 2: but it's also kind of like teenagers being shy about

466
00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 2: asking out somebody. Oh yeah, so there's that element as well.

467
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,959
Speaker 4: On the other hand, there's snap apple.

468
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 2: This one is a Halloween tradition also from the British

469
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 2: Aisles that has roots and paganism.

470
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 4: Here's how it went.

471
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 2: The goal was to snag an apple in your teeth

472
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 2: without using your hands, instead of dunking your head into water.

473
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 2: The apple was attached to one end of a stick,

474
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 2: while a burning candle was attached to the other end.

475
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 4: The stick itself was.

476
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 2: Dangled from a string and then the whole thing was

477
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 2: spun around.

478
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 4: The player then tried to.

479
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 2: Get the apple, but failure might mean a candle in

480
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 2: your face.

481
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 4: Whoo.

482
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 2: Getting the apple first could either mean you were going

483
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 2: to be happy in love or that you'd be the

484
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 2: first to be married. A similar, related version of this

485
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 2: game called for suspending a hoop from the ceiling. The

486
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 2: hoop was adorned with various candies, peppers, breads, cakes, and apples.

487
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 2: Depending on what food the player got, it foretold the

488
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: nature of their marriage, like spicy or sweet.

489
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 5: I don't like any of those games.

490
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 3: There's some risk involved, for sure, I guess I would

491
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 3: rather have the ladder than but still.

492
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, as our friend and coworker Laura likes

493
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: to say, they didn't have Netflix back then, So find

494
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: your own entertainment, I suppose so.

495
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 3: One tradition claimed that you would take an apple to

496
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 3: the mirror, shine a candle in it, and eat the apple,

497
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,479
Speaker 3: which would cause your future husband over your shoulder to

498
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,360
Speaker 3: appear Tuta. That sounds like a bloody merry game, are there?

499
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 3: And another you'd cut an apple into nine pieces, and

500
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 3: after you'd eaten the eighth, your lover would.

501
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 5: Appear to ask for the ninth. All of these things

502
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 5: are how the hell did you get in my house.

503
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 2: Bro they do sound I mean, for someone who watches

504
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 2: a lot of horror movies, this doesn't sound romantic. However,

505
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: like I said, some of them were. It just something

506
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 2: like Bloody Mary. It was kind of freaky. But okay,

507
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: enough about apples, let's talk about nuts. Nuts were also

508
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: used for seeing into the future to figure out who

509
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 2: you were going to marry. In some places, Halloween may

510
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,959
Speaker 2: have been called nutcrack Night or the Sacrifice of the Nuts,

511
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: because they were used so much in these sort of

512
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 2: future attempts at seeing into the future. Women would name

513
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 2: the nuts and put them in the fire. If the

514
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 2: nuts cooked together and smoothly, that was good for your

515
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 2: chances with that person the nut was named after. If

516
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: the nuts jumped and cracked, not so good, not looking good.

517
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 2: Another belief held at this time was that if a

518
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 2: man brought a woman walle nuts, it was true love,

519
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 2: which again it feels like if the man knew that,

520
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: then yeah, it's.

521
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 4: Just like right right, I did.

522
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 2: I mean, with all of these there's a lot of

523
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: historical distortion of trying to understand what people believed back

524
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 2: at this time, and a lot of different accounts. And

525
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: I did read one where it was actually the opposite,

526
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 2: and if the nuts cooked slowly and together, it meant

527
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,479
Speaker 2: boring times ahead for you with that person. But if

528
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: they jumped in practice gonna be really exciting and fun.

529
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 3: So the bit about him bringing you nuts, it's kind

530
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 3: of a little more of what I had thought of

531
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 3: as a kid, like I had two to three specific

532
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 3: things that my future husband would do for me for

533
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 3: me to know that he was the one, And I

534
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 3: did have that, and it was very specific.

535
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 5: It has not happened.

536
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 4: That sounds like practical magic territory.

537
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 5: You're getting You're right, You're right. I think about that.

538
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 3: But yeah, as a kid like, these are the things

539
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 3: that I know that I love. And if he does

540
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: these two things, because I had two specific, very specific things.

541
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 5: Then I know he's the one.

542
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 3: Which makes me kind of gag a little bit, but

543
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 3: hey whatever, a little bit nauseous on that one. But anyway,

544
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 3: So let's talk about cabbage, types of cabbage or once.

545
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 3: I feel like this is very Korean for some reason,

546
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 3: I don't know why. I feel like a lot of

547
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 3: Asian food just it just has all the cabbage. So

548
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, this feels right, so it ties with

549
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 3: cabbage or once believed to have Halloween love predicting properties too.

550
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 5: What a delight? I love cabbage.

551
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 3: So I'm not sure about these things. But here's a

552
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 3: fun vague one. Great women would go into fields pulling

553
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 3: up stocks of kill, examining them for things like link, girth, taste,

554
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: weight to kind of get an idea of what their

555
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 3: relationship with their future spouse would be.

556
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 5: Light. So is it kind of phallic? Am I pictoring

557
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 5: this right? Am I wrong? Or is it just about

558
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 5: the entire relationship? Do I just have a dirty mind?

559
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 4: It could be either or.

560
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 2: It was a lot of like a lot of its

561
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: wordplay right, like if it's long, then the relationship will

562
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: last long.

563
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 5: Oh see, I was completely darny.

564
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 3: So lots of earth clinging to the roots were often

565
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 3: interpreted as a substantial dowry.

566
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 5: Didn't the dowry come from the woman?

567
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 4: Yeah?

568
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I think. So he's supposed to be

569
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 2: the woman's family.

570
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 5: Okay, so this is for guys too, then.

571
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: No, I think it was like I would assume that

572
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: would I would at the time, you would interpret that

573
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: as getting married to somebody higher up?

574
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 4: Okay, kid, ask for a bigger dowry.

575
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 3: Okay, so if a woman was looking to live a

576
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 3: bit more on the wild side, she could steal a

577
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 3: cabbage and see who she met on the way home.

578
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 3: And over in Ireland and Newfoundland, the dish colcannon made

579
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 3: of cabbage and potatoes. People would hide a ring and

580
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 3: button underneath it, and whoever found the ring was going

581
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 3: to get married soon, and the button portended you would

582
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 3: never marry. Say it can be yeah, I guess so, yes,

583
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 3: I don't want to be married. That is a really

584
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 3: interesting reaction from me because it's supposed to be how

585
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 3: it's supposed to be seen, right, But yes, I am absolutely.

586
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 5: Parsons was like, I don't want to be married. That

587
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 5: sounds awful.

588
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean not to harp on this point

589
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: too much, but it was. It's still a big deal now,

590
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 2: don't get me wrong, but back then it was a

591
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: much bigger right.

592
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 5: Woman's value was in marriage, absolutely.

593
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 2: Yes, and also as a game, you know, sort of

594
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: similar to old maid. And this is still something we

595
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 2: have to shape today culturally.

596
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 4: But like, there's nothing worse or scarier than being old

597
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 4: and married woman.

598
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: So I can imagine at a party.

599
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 3: On social media being like this is not even be

600
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 3: alone like it's the worst thing to put on someone.

601
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 5: They're like, Okay, cool, it's.

602
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 4: Fine, I'm good. Yeah, I think yeah. And that's just

603
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 4: the sampling.

604
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: There are so many of these, and these were Halloween focus.

605
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 2: But again, listeners, if you've got some or if you've

606
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 2: played them, let us know. We did want to talk

607
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 2: briefly about costumes. And we've done several episodes in the

608
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 2: past around women's costumes and even the history of Halloween

609
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: and especially here in America and the commercialization of it

610
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 2: and how women were heavily involved in the early days.

611
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 4: So this is going to be a much more modern look.

612
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: Also, thanks again to Jessica who suggested we look into this.

613
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 2: So there has been some recent research around gender differences

614
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: and costumes and why these differences matter. The researchers duck

615
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: through sixteen hundred costumes in this recent research on two

616
00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: online costumes superstore websites sites that have a fairly strict

617
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 2: line between men's costumes and women's costumes, same with boys

618
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 2: and girls. Some of the findings of this research weren't surprising.

619
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 2: Women's costumes are tighter, sexier, and if that wasn't what

620
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: a woman wanted, there weren't many options outside of that.

621
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: We've all heard the arguments, I'm sure around why do

622
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 2: women always have to wear sexy costumes? It's slut a weird?

623
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 4: Oh no.

624
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 2: But if the only options for women are sexy, which

625
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: shouldn't really be an issue, if that's something the person

626
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: in question wants to wear, then we're limiting what women

627
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 2: can dress as and then judging them for it. In

628
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: the words of one of the researchers, Aaron Hippel, the

629
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: issue isn't really that adult women are wearing sexy costumes.

630
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 2: Women should be allowed to choose what we wear all

631
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 2: year round. The issue is that there are limited choices.

632
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 2: If one shops on the women's side of the Halloween

633
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: sales floor divide, the choices are very limited. U.

634
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

635
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: So it sends this message that women and girls should

636
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: be sexy, that they're looks are our front and center

637
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 2: and should be front and center, and that their bodies

638
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: are for consumption for the mail.

639
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 4: Gays.

640
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: Again, if you want to dress sexually, totally should a.

641
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 4: Big believer in that. But it's the issue of options.

642
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 5: Right, And they've got numbers to back this up too.

643
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 3: So they found eighty eight percent of women's costumes showed

644
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 3: skin compared to sixteen percent of men's. The number is

645
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 3: sixty eight percent for girls compared to one percent of boys.

646
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 3: So since for a good chunk of the people who

647
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 3: are celebrating Halloween are celebrating it in public, Halloween falls

648
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 3: in cooler months, that means options for comfort and warmth

649
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 3: are limited unless you are like me and you get

650
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 3: a onesie and you're like, nah, I'm good bro in

651
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 3: my Panda onesie.

652
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 4: I have had so many cold halloweens. I remember there

653
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 4: was a cold.

654
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: Snap in Atlanta, Oh, when I was in college, so

655
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: you know, many years ago, and just being so cold

656
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: and uncomfortable and going home because my costume was very skimpy.

657
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 4: Yes, right.

658
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 3: And on top of that, ninety three percent of women's

659
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 3: costumes over tight, even uncomfortably so, compared to the twenty

660
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 3: eight percent of men's And that's forty nine percent of

661
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 3: girls versus five percent four boys.

662
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I had a friend that almost passed

663
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 2: out once from her tight Harley Quinn outfit.

664
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 4: So you can get really uncomfortably tight, right, Yeah.

665
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 3: For those that are just like pre manufactured, obviously very

666
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 3: cheaply made costumes is typically the worst material size, like

667
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 3: for young preprebescent girls, and the fact that's thin see

668
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 3: through not necessarily on purpose, it's just the way it is.

669
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 3: It's like this is the worst combination of costuming, or

670
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 3: they're ridiculously expensive and I'm like, I'm not spending one

671
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty dollars on that antique.

672
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 2: Yes, right, well yeah, I mean that's another good point

673
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 2: is if comfort isn't clearly isn't a priority for women's costumes,

674
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: and it's again kind of sending this message that it's

675
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: not about you know, and it's.

676
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 4: About how you look and how other people see you.

677
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 5: Right.

678
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 3: So in interviews, the researchers described how they would have

679
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 3: to go through several pages of women's costumes before finding

680
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 3: one that wasn't sexualized, whereas for men, the very first

681
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 3: option wasn't nice. This finding put out numbers that demonstrate

682
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 3: just how big this gender gap is. And I was

683
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 3: just thinking about this too, like if you think about

684
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 3: even historical levels of costumes, they're all made sexy, and

685
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 3: you're like, that was That's not what it was. You

686
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 3: kind of have this moment of trying to figure out

687
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 3: why something that is already nice has begun even beyond

688
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 3: and then we won't talk about the cultural appropriation that

689
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 3: happens within these costumes, but how they're also sexualized. I

690
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 3: was thinking about there was just a recent argument on

691
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 3: TikTok because I'm now officially on TikTok all the time and.

692
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 5: I need to ban myself from it.

693
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 3: But whatever, the whole idea of why people are arguing

694
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 3: with other people about why can't I dress up as Pocahontas,

695
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 3: why can't I dress up as Mulan and being there

696
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,919
Speaker 3: to be like, it's not the point that you may

697
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 3: have really liked these what you know of as Disney characters,

698
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 3: but the appropriation of what you're doing and what you're

699
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 3: trying to do, especially when we talk about indigenous communities,

700
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 3: Hey watch it.

701
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 5: And then especially the.

702
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 3: Overly sexualized tones of these costumes and what you're doing

703
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 3: it for is not because you're doing it because you

704
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 3: appreciate these individuals and you see them as iconic. You're

705
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 3: doing them because you're being a sexy version of something

706
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 3: that is known, and that's disgusting.

707
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 5: On so many levels.

708
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

709
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's it's interesting how it's such a big,

710
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: accepted kind of thing about like women's costumes will be

711
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 2: sexy that I think that. Just the other day I

712
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 2: heard like three for jokes about it, you know, sexy

713
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: crayons or sex just like random object right and it's sexy.

714
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, And I know.

715
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 2: I've heard, And I suppose there could also be an

716
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 2: argument that this is one of the only times of

717
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,720
Speaker 2: the year women feel it's acceptable to dress as sexy

718
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: as their heart desires, which is also a problem. Most

719
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 2: likely all these things are going on at once. I

720
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 2: remember one year I dressed in a cute what I

721
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 2: was like, modest outfit and went around telling everyone I

722
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 2: was tired of having sexy costumes, only sexy costume options.

723
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 2: I just remember being at this party and being like,

724
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: already kind of going off about this.

725
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 3: So I'm a proponent of being really silly, and that's

726
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 3: kind of one of the things that I try to

727
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 3: do for Halloween. And there have been some moments of

728
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 3: like me trying to be sexy did not pull off

729
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 3: really well, and I was like, I don't feel comfortable

730
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: in feeling like something that I am not on the constant,

731
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 3: and that also again the bigger conversation of being sexualized

732
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 3: fetishized as well as just not having confidence.

733
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 5: So it's all kind of a layered bunch. But the

734
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 5: few times that I have I'm like, this is really bad.

735
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 3: So one of the costumes that I did because as

736
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 3: an Asian person in a white community, I always felt

737
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 3: like I couldn't dress as anything and be that, Like

738
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 3: I couldn't be the Asian version of something like that

739
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: just felt wrong and felt weird. And I will say

740
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 3: that because it felt like I was trying to put

741
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 3: myself in the hierarchy, trying to be white. Not because

742
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 3: I didn't want to be one of the white people.

743
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 3: It was because I was ashamed for not being white,

744
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 3: so I couldn't possibly be accepted as white. So that's

745
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 3: again a different conversation. So I dressed up as a

746
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 3: Geisha is being an Asian partment like, oh, this is

747
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 3: one thing that I can be that can be kind

748
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 3: of sexy. And then coming back to realize, holy, I'm

749
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 3: fitting into that same narrative of sexualizing and fetishratizing women

750
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 3: with this whole moment of the memoirs of Geisha coming out.

751
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 5: And be like this was written by a white man.

752
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 5: Do we really want to go into all this?

753
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 3: Like this is all of those things, but coming back

754
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 3: to realizing, even though it is kind of more accepted

755
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 3: because I am at least an Asian woman doing it,

756
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 3: I had two white friends do it with me. By

757
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,879
Speaker 3: the way, the whole big conversation in that that wasn't

758
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 3: their fault. It was my idea, I will say to that,

759
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 3: But it was problematic then and problematic now. Be going

760
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 3: back to looking at it and being like, oh, yeah, okay,

761
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 3: I did bad and even though I am Asian, this

762
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 3: was bad on me as well, and that bigger narrative

763
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 3: of why do I feel like the only things that

764
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 3: are sexy are a fantasization of what men think of

765
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 3: Asian women, and which is what it can be dangerous

766
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 3: for Asian women, Like there's such a bigger narrative of

767
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 3: this conversation that it's okay to be sexy, be the

768
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 3: sexy creon if you want to, and you feel a

769
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 3: fit about it, go ahead your sexy self in that,

770
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 3: but have an understanding that, yes, there is a lot

771
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 3: of backlash, and that's the bigger conversation of what it is,

772
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 3: especially for women once again to sometimes feed into the

773
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 3: stereotype that can be really harmful or if you're a

774
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 3: white person being like, but I want to be a

775
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 3: squid gaze person.

776
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 5: Please don't do the eyes. Please don't do that. Don't

777
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 5: be racist. That is racist. That is not good.

778
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no, no no, And we have I

779
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 2: mean for something that feels on its surface level very frivolous.

780
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 2: There are so many aspects of this, and we've talked

781
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 2: about a few before, and I've talked about how sometimes

782
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: I feel really self conscious when I do like my

783
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: winter Soldier outfit, which I don't think is very sexy,

784
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 2: but it's slightly sexy, and kids see that and it's like,

785
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 2: you know, I like it and I feel good in it,

786
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,399
Speaker 2: but I know that kids are observing that, and they're

787
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: observing how men might treat me in that, and then.

788
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 4: That's makes me feel weird, that big strange.

789
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 3: That's again the conversation of like, why are we not

790
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 3: putting the responsibility on men?

791
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 4: Yes? Absolutely, mm hmm right. It shouldn't.

792
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: Again, you shouldn't be like, oh, I'm this object for

793
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: you to just treat however you want to treat. But

794
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: it does turn into that, and I hate when kids

795
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 2: see it because it's just like I don't want to contribute.

796
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 3: And you're right, and it becomes that that's the lesson

797
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 3: of the story, not the other problem of the fact

798
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 3: that you have been taught as a child and or

799
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 3: the parent has been teaching the child. Oh see, the girl,

800
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 3: don't do that, because she's the problem. And that's not

801
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 3: the truth in this at all. And of course, and

802
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 3: I know I'm preaching to the choir when we talk

803
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 3: about all of this, but this again same like stripped

804
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 3: down of the fact that if done appropriately, everything has

805
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 3: been in that caveat. If done appropriately and you feel

806
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 3: sexy and you feel good about it, then wonderful. Let's

807
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 3: talk about the fact that that is not an open

808
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,760
Speaker 3: invitation for us to be addled. If you want to

809
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 3: look from afar and appreciate, because sure, maybe they put

810
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 3: some I'm in that outfit and do want compliments? Okay,

811
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 3: if they don't, if they're uncomfortable by you, then don't.

812
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, never touch, Always ask before you take a picture. Anyway, Yes, yes,

813
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: And I was also thinking, I guess there's an argument

814
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 2: that in our entertainment, a lot of women's costumes are

815
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 2: more sexualized.

816
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:22,760
Speaker 4: They're costuming in general.

817
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 2: And if Halloween costumes are at least in part based

818
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 2: on entertainment.

819
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 4: Then it filters into that too.

820
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 2: That doesn't explain things like sexy Bernie costume, but it

821
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 2: does explain a lot of uh that sexy Bernie meme costume.

822
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 4: Mysel the other day.

823
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, I just saw a sexy ted lasso costume.

824
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 3: Oh and I didn't know I had. I had a

825
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 3: moment of huh.

826
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 2: See, yeah, I guess my thing would be, is there

827
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 2: a non sexy women's ted lassus?

828
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 5: I've seen a few.

829
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, couseplaying just straight right, But could you like

830
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 3: the sto.

831
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,720
Speaker 5: So the sexy I will say, the sexy ted lasso.

832
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 5: She may on her own. That's pretty good.

833
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 4: I'm awesome.

834
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 5: But I don't know why that. It doesn't enter my

835
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 5: head to do things. I was like, yeah, that's pretty good.

836
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 5: Like that's all I could think.

837
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 2: Saw on people's minds, that's for sure. So going back

838
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 2: to this research, these are not the only findings they had.

839
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 2: They also discovered women and girls costumes rarely come with masks.

840
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 2: One percent and four percent of women's and girls respectively

841
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 2: come with masks, compared to thirty five percent and forty

842
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,959
Speaker 2: six percent of men's and boys. Why researcher Laurie Hier

843
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 2: speculates we found that girls and women's costumes provided less

844
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 2: coverage and accentuated the wear's own physical attractiveness as the

845
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 2: character herself rather than her costume character, so that she

846
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: became the featured subject. It seems that girl's costumes had

847
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: to fulfill demands for feminine ornamental display. She must not

848
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 2: simply be a princess. She must display herself as pretty

849
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 2: in her princess costume. On the other hand, costumes for

850
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: boys and men put the alternate identity and character at

851
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 2: the forefront. Hires went on. Costumes marketed to girls and

852
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 2: women consistently promise that she will look cute, sexy, pretty,

853
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 2: and all eyes will be on her, whereas costumes marketed

854
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: towards boys typically promise that they will be strong and

855
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: tough or scary and gross and then yeah. I read

856
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 2: another interesting article about this. I wasn't sure how much

857
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 2: of waiting to put in it, but they were saying, like,

858
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 2: you know, the original intent of Halloween, which we are

859
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 2: way off of what it was originally, was that you

860
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 2: were supposed to hide your face and like hide your identity,

861
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 2: and that was the costume. So that you know, ghost

862
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 2: or spirits can find you. I do think that's interesting,

863
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,359
Speaker 2: and I mean, it's just hard for me to like

864
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,240
Speaker 2: make that argument in our modern times when we've just gone.

865
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 4: So far away from that.

866
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: But that is an interesting point when it comes to

867
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 2: these boys costumes having so much more coverage and mask

868
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,919
Speaker 2: whereas women's and girls generally don't. Right.

869
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 3: I will say one of my favorite costumes that I

870
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 3: did as the Grudge Ghost, and I just follow people

871
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 3: around making the noise oh freaky.

872
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 5: And I stay in character so I'm super annoying.

873
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 4: Oh I'm sure you know, like is no longer scary.

874
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 3: It's well, no, I still did enough that freaked people

875
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 3: out and they would all say stop, and I'd be like,

876
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 3: I appreciate your dedication, thank you. So another study found

877
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 3: that costumes of strong feminist historical icons are lacking when

878
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 3: it comes to costume stores, which is why you'll find

879
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 3: article after article instructing women and young girls how to

880
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,320
Speaker 3: diy them. I definitely saw plenty of like Rosie the

881
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 3: Reveter and of course RBG with the necklace and all

882
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 3: of that. I've seen so many of that, but I

883
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 3: have also seen amazing diy like these parents are doing

884
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 3: for their young kids. I'm like, oh my gosh, that's amazing.

885
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 3: I knew that costume.

886
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 2: I would say that was probably when I was researching this.

887
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: That was a good chunk of the articles on the

888
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 2: early Google pages where you know, like.

889
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 4: Don't want your young girl to wear sexy costume.

890
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 2: Here's eight costume ideas of famous historical female figures and

891
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 2: how to make them, which is another argument that we

892
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 2: could make and has been made. It's that that's better

893
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 2: for the environments. Right. So, yeah, there's a lot going

894
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,240
Speaker 2: on in this conversation.

895
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 5: A lot more than you thought.

896
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 2: Annie. Well, listeners, we would love to know if you've

897
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 2: got any cool costumes you would like to share. Please

898
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 2: please please let us know whether you're celebrating or not.

899
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 2: We hope you have a lovely, safe weekend. And yes,

900
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 2: if you would like to email us, you can. We

901
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: would love to hear from you. Our email is Stuff Media,

902
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 2: mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us

903
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 2: on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at

904
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 2: Steffon Never sold you thinks It's always too Our super producer, Christina.

905
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 5: Happy Halloween, see yes and.

906
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 2: Thanks to you for listening. Steffon Never Told You his

907
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 2: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

908
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 2: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

909
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 2: your favorite shows.