1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 2: Hey, I'm welcome into the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 2: Should Know, Foreign Policy Edition. 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: That's right, take it away. 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 2: Okay, So Chuck, we're talking today. Well let me start differently, Chuck. Yes, 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 2: have you ever met Aq Khan? 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: I had never heard of Aq Khn? 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 2: What do you think of him? Now? 10 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: You know, seems like a guy that made a lot 11 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: of money helping countries develop their nuclear program. 12 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 2: Sure, but I think that leaves out some very important stuff. 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: This was in flagrant violation of UN non proliferation treaties. 14 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 2: Who was generally illegal, and he was even doing it 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 2: on the side. He had an underground clandestine proliferation network, 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 2: which is I mean, that's very few people have ever 17 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 2: done that in the world. Over here in the West, Chuck, 18 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 2: he's viewed as a villain, and in other parts of 19 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 2: the world, especially Pakistan where he's from, he's hailed as 20 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 2: a hero. He's very complex, complicated, and at the end 21 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 2: of the day, he may essentially be generally a fall 22 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 2: guy for a much larger cabal of people who were 23 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 2: actually doing. 24 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: This, Yeah, for sure. I guess we can go back 25 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: and talk a little bit about how he got there, right, Yeah. 26 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 2: I think so. 27 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: He was born in India in nineteen thirty six and 28 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty two moved to West Pakistan and he 29 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: was into metallurgy and studied at a few different universities 30 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: in a few different countries. He eventually graduated initially in 31 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty from the University of Karachi, but then got 32 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: a doctorate in metallurgical engineering in nineteen seventy two. In 33 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: that time, he got married, had a couple of daughters, 34 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: and then eventually he found his way with his family 35 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: in the early seventies and the Netherlands working for a 36 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: company called Physical Dynamic Research Laboratory which was doing uranium 37 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: enrichment for another company called Urinko, which was a consortium 38 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:29,119 Speaker 1: of a few different countries Britain, Germany and the Netherlands, 39 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: and they were, you know, they were running ultracentrifuges and 40 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: he was pretty good at snooping around. 41 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: It seems like, yeah, in ultracentrifuge r centrifugias in general 42 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 2: is used to enricheranium in your rich uranium to a 43 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 2: certain extent to use for nuclear power. But if you 44 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 2: keep going, you can use that enriched uranium for nuclear bombs. Right, 45 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: So I think that these companies were doing this for 46 00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: power for power generation. But regardless, he wasn't a particular 47 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 2: like brilliant physicists or metal or just or anything like that. 48 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: He was just kind of a dude. He just had 49 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 2: a will that was unlike other people's typically. So when 50 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 2: he started out, he had a very low level security clearance, 51 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: but he very quickly like started making waves and catching 52 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 2: the attention of Dutch intelligence agencies for asking a lot 53 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: of questions that did not have much of anything to 54 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 2: do with the work he was supposed to be doing. 55 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, so they started monitoring him, and this is something 56 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: that kind of continued at at least as far as 57 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: Dutch intelligence, and then you know, eventually other countries would 58 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: start monitoring as well, because you know, like I said, 59 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: he got pretty good at snooping around. And in nineteen 60 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: seventy one there was a conflict between East and West 61 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: Pakistan and that led to a pretty brief war with India, 62 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: and just for our purposes, what that eventually meant was 63 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: a khan and a lot of Pakistan were kind of 64 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: humiliated at the whole thing, and we're like, we're still 65 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: under the thumb of India here, and kind of just 66 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: sort of got that I guess national Pakistani pride going, 67 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: as you know, wanting to get out from under that thumb. 68 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw that that in that thirteen day war, 69 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: Pakistan lost half its navy, a quarter of its air force, 70 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 2: and a third of its army. So it was very 71 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 2: much a humiliating defeat. And yeah, I saw that. Up 72 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: to this point, aq Kan was just a generally average person, 73 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 2: but that seemed to have really started to get him going. 74 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 2: So he decided he was going to use what expertise 75 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 2: he had to help build a bomb for Pakistan. So 76 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: he wrote a letter to the Prime Minister of Pakistan, 77 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 2: Zulfa kar Ali Bhutto, who was running the show at 78 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 2: the time, and said, Hey, I want to help build 79 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 2: a nuclear bomb for Pakistan. We clearly need one. And 80 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 2: if you said back and look at it, chuck like, 81 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 2: this is just some random dude that the Prime Minister 82 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 2: had never heard of who wrote him a letter and 83 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: said like, hey, let's build a bomb. And I heard 84 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: the first time he was ignored and the second time, 85 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: they were like, all right, let's see what this guy 86 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: has to say. 87 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, because he was lobbying for uranium and that was 88 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: his expertise, was enriching uranium and at the time, Pakistan 89 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: was trying to enrich and produce plutonium. And he was like, 90 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: that's not the way. Uranium is the way to go. 91 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 1: And just a couple of months after that, Bhutto met 92 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: with him and over about the next eleven or twelve months, 93 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: con was like, all right, I'm going to make a 94 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,239 Speaker 1: little grocery shopping list of what we need, the parts 95 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: that we need to get a nuclear program started here 96 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 1: in earnest and I'm going to make a list of 97 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,679 Speaker 1: companies and suppliers and who can get us this stuff. 98 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: And he basically got all of this information while he 99 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: was working for that Dutch company, right, you know, making 100 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: copies of blueprints and sneaking them out and supply lists, 101 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: suppers lists and stuff like that. 102 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was very well known around the office or 103 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 2: be like making capies. 104 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. 105 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 2: So he well, I just dated myself. Can we just 106 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: do a little science minute off to the side. 107 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: Sure. 108 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 2: So you said that there was a course that Pakistan 109 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 2: was already on for making a bomb out of plutonium. Right. 110 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 2: Aq Con was all about enriching uranium. There are two 111 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: routes you can use to make a nuclear bomb, and 112 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: the background and training khan Head was in uranium enrichment, 113 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 2: and he loved to like talk trash about plutonium and 114 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: the people in Pakistan running the plutonium program. But just 115 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: the upshot of it is this, if you want to 116 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 2: get weapons grade uranium, you need about ninety percent pure 117 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 2: uranium in nature. The U two thirty five uranium that 118 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 2: you're looking for occurs about three quarters of a percent 119 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 2: of any natural lump of uranium. So there's two ways 120 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 2: to get that purified U two thirty five. One is enrichment, 121 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 2: where you spin it in centrifugias that go so fast 122 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: that it actually separates the different kinds of uranium isotopes 123 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: and then you just kind of siphon off the stuff 124 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: you want. Or with plutonium, you bombard it with neutron 125 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: so that uranium two thirty eight eventually turns into two 126 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: thirty nine, decays into neptunium and then plutonium. They're both 127 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: like great ways of creating nuclear material to blow up 128 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 2: the world with, but they're just two totally different tracks. 129 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we did a whole episode on that. If 130 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: you're interested in like the finer details, seek that one out. 131 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: Was that the one that we did after Fukushima? 132 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, but we did a whole episode on 133 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: how to that whole process. I can't remember what it 134 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: was called, though. 135 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 2: Well I can't help but talk about it. I love 136 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: that for some reason, really like tickles me. 137 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. So in October of seventy five, the Dutch authorities 138 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: who had been watching him this whole time, noting all 139 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: this sort of suspicious stuff that he was doing at work, 140 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: all right, we're going to transfer you out of these 141 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: enrichment projects because we think you're, you know, you're clearly 142 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: some sort of a snoop or a thread or something. 143 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: And just a couple of months after that, and I 144 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: guess late nineteen seventy five, in December, he left the 145 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: company all together and had you know, basically under his 146 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: in his banker's box on the way out the door. 147 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: He had a bunch of sensitive documents, blueprints and those 148 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: supplier lists, and he said, don't bother looking in these 149 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: banker boxes. The lid is on, right. 150 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 2: He just kind of vanished and showed back up in 151 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 2: Pakistan and he was very quickly put in charge of 152 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: the uranium project. And there was a guy named Manir 153 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 2: Ahmad Khan who was essentially his rival in the quest 154 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: to build Pakistan a bomb. The other Cohn was involved 155 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: in the plutonium wing of the whole thing. Khn eventually 156 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 2: got Bhutto and then the guy who overthrew Bhuto over 157 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 2: to his side in favor of uranium enrichment, but also 158 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 2: in favor of aq Con. From what I could tell, 159 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: he had a really big ego and he wanted to 160 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 2: be like the top dog in getting Pakistan the bomb, 161 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 2: and so he was working on the project called Project 162 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 2: seven oh six. It was the uranium Enrichment project, and 163 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 2: by nineteen eighty two, I think they managed to produce 164 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: the highly enriched uranium that you need to make a bomb, 165 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 2: very very small amount at first, you need several kilograms 166 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 2: to actually make a bomb, but they were successful at 167 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: doing it through that uranium enrichment program by nineteen eighty 168 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: two for the first time. 169 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, and as they're doing this, are also researching how 170 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: to get this thing into a missile. So you know, 171 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 1: as you'll see, I mean, if you just look back 172 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: at the history of enriching uranium or for nuclear energy. 173 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: It's usually a country is like, hey, you know, we 174 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: just want to have a nuclear energy company and we 175 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: want to get a to speed on that. But what 176 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: they're also trying to do is get a nuclear bomb. 177 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 2: They're also making copies. 178 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of just happens over and over and 179 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: over where they're like, no, no, no, we just want nuclear 180 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: energy and don't worry about what's in that bunker over there. 181 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: Right and again I kind of I mentioned it at 182 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 2: the outset. The reason that countries have to do it 183 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: like that is because there's a huge treaty from the 184 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: sixties that said, Okay, the people who already have the bomb, 185 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: they're agreeing to disassemble it. People who don't have the bomb, 186 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 2: they're going to agree not to seek the bomb. And 187 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 2: it's still in effect and it's still enforced. So that's 188 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 2: why you have to do it right exactly. But it's 189 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: just been so just kind of nibble that and worn 190 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 2: down and just flagrantly ignored that. It doesn't really seem 191 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: to have that much teeth, but I guess it's enough 192 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 2: to make countries feel like they have to be subversive 193 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 2: when they're trying to create a nuclear weapons program. 194 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So while he's doing all this, and you 195 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 1: mentioned at the beginning that he had a side gig, 196 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: you know, getting rich off of selling these secrets and 197 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: blueprints and helping other countries, you know, get in touch 198 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: with the right. As you'll see, he worked with a 199 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: lot of middlemen over the years and spoke a bunch 200 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: of different languages, so he was really kind of the 201 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: perfect dude to do this. And while he was doing this, 202 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: he developed that side gig as importing and exporting all 203 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: these components and plans that you know, some of which 204 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: he just outright stole. 205 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, And he was able to do this in large 206 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 2: part because he had by this time garnered so much 207 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 2: respect in Pakistan among the leadership of Pakistan, emerging as 208 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 2: the guy who was giving the bomb or developing the 209 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 2: bomb for Pakistan that they just weren't. They were like, 210 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 2: just go, here's a blank check, do whatever you need 211 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 2: to do. So he started ordering doubles of the stuff yeah, 212 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 2: that he was he needed to set up Pakistan's uranium 213 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 2: enrichment program, and then he would take the stuff that 214 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 2: he didn't need and turn around and essentially reverse the 215 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 2: way that it got there. He would use Pakistani military 216 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: planes cargo planes to take those parts, the extra parts 217 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: back to middlemen, and then he'd tell the middlemen what 218 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: buyers to direct it to, and then he'd pocket the money. 219 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was very lucrative, as we'll see, he 220 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: ended up making a ton of money doing this. He 221 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: ended up having a few kind of major clients. No 222 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: one really knows how many countries he really dealt with, 223 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: because I think they found out he traveled to many 224 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: more countries than they officially sort of accused him of 225 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: dealing with. But the first country to step up and 226 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: say hey, I really want to do business with you 227 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: was Iran, and this was in nineteen eighty seven. He 228 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 1: helped them build up to fifty thousand centrifuges P one 229 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: types Pakistan won. There are a couple of different types, 230 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: Pakistan one and the P two, the Pakistan two. Those 231 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 1: the P twos are much faster. And the belief at 232 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: the time is that he was just kind of sending 233 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: the stuff that they didn't need anymore to Iran and 234 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: it was kind of outdated equipment that wasn't going to 235 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: help him that much. 236 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, that's how it started out. They were 237 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 2: they because Pakistan upgraded their setup from what I saw. 238 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: And the reason why you need fifty thousand centrifuges is 239 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 2: because when you spin that uranium to separate it and 240 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 2: you siphon off the stuff you want, you have to 241 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 2: do it again and again and again and again, and 242 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 2: it can take weeks and months and sometimes years depending 243 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 2: on what kind of centrifuges you're working with. But if 244 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 2: you have fifty thousand centrifuges like Iran supposedly got, you 245 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: can make a lot of highly enriched uranium fairly fast. Which, 246 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 2: let me know, wonder, Chuck, like, what is taking Iran 247 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: so long? If they still don't have a nuke and 248 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 2: they started in nineteen eighty seven, What's what's the deal there? 249 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 2: And the best answer I could come up with is 250 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 2: that back in the nineties, the Ayatola issued a fatois 251 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: like a ruling on Sharia law that basically said no nukes, 252 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: Iran's not going to have any nukes, and that it 253 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 2: wasn't until twenty twenty four that Iran said that they 254 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 2: were starting to rethink it. So I guess just because 255 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 2: the leadership said they weren't going to have nukes. That 256 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 2: is the reason Iran doesn't have a nuke right now. 257 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting, I thought so too. So he was dealing 258 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: with their government. Supposedly until nineteen ninety one there was 259 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: a final shipment of the p ones, but other people 260 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: have said no, no, no. That continued for at least 261 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: another four years through the mid nineties, and those P 262 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: two centerfuges started flowing in. Iran wanted this potential bomb 263 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: because they were at war with Iraq at the time 264 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: in the eighties, over the course of about eight years, 265 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: So Khan over the businessman, was like, hey, Iraq, I've 266 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: been helping Iran developed their You could probably use a 267 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: little with my help in stolen documents as well. 268 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, what's crazy is Iroq was like very suspicious of 269 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: this from the outset, and I guess they asked for 270 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 2: a sample and they couldn't find what sample they were given. 271 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: Just that con was like, don't taste this, that's not 272 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: that kind of sample. 273 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: Right, And I think you dab your pinky in it, Yeah, exactly, 274 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: put it on your tongue. 275 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 2: It's like, don't do that. So I guess a rock 276 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 2: thought that this is some sort of maybe international un 277 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: sting operation. And then around the same time, the first 278 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: Gulf War broke out and they were like, we don't 279 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 2: have time for this, so they moved on. And I 280 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 2: guess he never managed to get a bomb or the 281 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 2: information a rock needed to a rock. 282 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, but there were documents that said, hey, this little 283 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: you know, the paperwork was there. This will cost you 284 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: five million bucks and a ten percent commission on materials 285 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: right through my network, So I can you know, pay 286 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: people off basically. But yeah, like you said, it seems 287 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: like it never ended up happening, and Iraq was probably 288 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: wise to think that that was a sting operation even 289 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: though it wasn't. 290 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 2: Well, what something I saw that was kind of funny 291 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: was Iran paid three million dollars for THEIRS and they 292 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: actually were like ten percent commission. That seems steep, So 293 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 2: they went and started calling up the list of suppliers 294 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 2: that aq Con had for him, rather than dealing with him, 295 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: because they were bargain shopping for their nuclear. 296 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: Pro Well apparently, well maybe that has something to do 297 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: with it too. 298 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: Their nuclear centrifuges were held together bubble gum and duct tape. 299 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: Should we take a break. Yeah's all right, we'll come 300 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: back and talk about a couple of more clients right 301 00:16:45,880 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: after this. All right, so we're back, and we promised 302 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: to talk about new clients. This is where North Korea 303 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: enters a picture. It's the mid nineties, and with a 304 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: deal with the United States, North Korea said, you know what, 305 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: we're going to stop building our nuclear reactors. We're going 306 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: to stop producing plutonium again. We're just trying to get 307 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: nuclear energy going. But all right, we'll stop doing that. 308 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: But what we're really going to do is very quietly 309 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,360 Speaker 1: start looking to continue that process, just on the down load. 310 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 2: Right, But Kim Jung il had his fingers crossed behind 311 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 2: his back, so none of that counted. 312 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: That's right. And so who do they turn to? Of 313 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: course they turned to Pakistan and aq Kan. 314 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is where it really seems like Pakistan. 315 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 2: Pakistani officials were definitely involved in this, even though later on, 316 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 2: as we'll see, they're like, we had nothing to do 317 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 2: with this. But Pakistan conducted its first nuclear test in 318 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight, which really surprised the world, and even 319 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 2: more dramatically, they did it in response to a test 320 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 2: that India had carried out two weeks before and during 321 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: this test. One of the groups that was there was 322 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 2: a delegation of North Koreans who were invited to watch 323 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 2: the whole thing. And the common wisdom among the intelligence 324 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: community is that this was a group of nuclear scientists 325 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: from North Korea's nuclear program who are basically being you know, 326 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: run through the motions of how this is working. I 327 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 2: don't know if we said or not. Also, a q 328 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 2: Khan was known to have gone to North Korea at 329 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 2: least thirteen times that were documented. Something really weird happened 330 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 2: during this nuclear test with the North Korean delegation though, 331 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 2: and that was that one of them, a woman who 332 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: was among this group died. Mys seriously. She was shot 333 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 2: and eventually sent back to North Korea. Her body was 334 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 2: but on the cargo plane were centrifuges and other things 335 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 2: for North Korea's nuclear program too. 336 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, was that just like, Hey, we've got this plane going, 337 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: so why don't we just double dip and get some 338 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: stuff moved, maybe transporting this body. 339 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 2: Maybe Pakistan is the bargain shop as well. 340 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: So, like you said, he went to North Korea at 341 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: least thirteen times that intelligence knows about. And while he 342 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: was helping North Korea sort of develop their enrichment program. 343 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: They were supplying Pakistan. It was a bit of a 344 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,959 Speaker 1: quid pro quo. They're like, hey, we've got long distance 345 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: missile technology that you don't have, and so we're perfect 346 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: bedfellows here. 347 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so they got the missiles from North Korea 348 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 2: through a guy named Kang. He was on paper the 349 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: dip the astor to Pakistan for North Korea. In reality, 350 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 2: he was the husband of the woman who was murdered. 351 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 2: She turned out to be murdered during the missile test 352 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 2: because she was spying for the US, but her husband 353 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 2: managed to hang in there and it turns out he 354 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 2: was an armstealer for North Korea. He was the one 355 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 2: who provided the missiles. So again, all this time, North 356 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 2: Korea is saying like, we don't have a nuclear program. 357 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 2: Pakistan's like, we don't even know what anybody's talking about. 358 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 2: This is all in retrospect, like this is not on 359 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 2: a lot of people's radar right now. And as a 360 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 2: matter of fact, Aq Khan was on the radar of 361 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: international intelligence communities again all the way back to the 362 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: with the seventies, when the Dutch started watching him but somehow, 363 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 2: some way, the global intelligence community missed the fact that 364 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 2: he was a rogue nuclear weapons technology salesman, which is 365 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 2: one of the weirdest things ever. But it turned out 366 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 2: that it was his next business venture in Libya that 367 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 2: led to his downfall. 368 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there were you know, later on they 369 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: were they were like, yeah, we knew he was ordering 370 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: double the amount of everything, and we just couldn't figure 371 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: out why. 372 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 2: Right, it makes zero. There's a lot about this that 373 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: just really smells like a kind of a poorly constructed 374 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 2: cover up internationally, not just from Pakistan. 375 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So yeah, the next client step forward, 376 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: and that was Libya. And this was in the late nineties, 377 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: like nineteen ninety six, ninety seven. He started trading centrifuges 378 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: and the equipment and the components getting them over to Libya. 379 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: This there's a guy here named Peter Griffin. Not what 380 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 1: you're thinking from family guy is a real life human. 381 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: It was a British engineer who was involved in this 382 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: operation who was like, man, I've been I've been given 383 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: or not giving, but I've been selling material to Pakistan 384 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 1: for you know, twenty years or more like this has 385 00:21:58,480 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: been going on for a long time. 386 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was a huge thing that allowed this 387 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 2: to go on. Is like the international community would ban 388 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: parts for like centrifuges or breeder reactors that you made 389 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 2: plutonium with, and then people like Iq Khan would be like, well, fine, 390 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: we're going to start shipping the parts to make those 391 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 2: parts and then assemble the parts at the at the end. 392 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: So they were legitimately allowed to do this stuff. It 393 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 2: was just they still had to fake what the overall 394 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 2: purpose was. So yeah, guys like Peter Griffin were like, 395 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 2: I actually wasn't breaking any laws. It was more like 396 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: an international more that was broken where he knew he 397 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 2: was helping states that should not have nuclear bombs get 398 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 2: nuclear bombs essentially. 399 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So Peter Griffin, Peter Griffin. 400 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 2: There's just no way that couldn't do something. 401 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: I guess that was. Uh, oh, what's the guy's name. 402 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: I haven't watched Family Gun so long? Cleveland, Peter Cleveland. Yeah, 403 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: that's right. So Peter Griffin was a partner and a 404 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: company from Dubai, and in two thousand and one they 405 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: placed a bunch of orders for these parts that they 406 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: needed with a Malaysian company, and that company spun off 407 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: a subsidiary and they hired workers and brought in, you know, 408 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: all this equipment and brought in a bunch of new 409 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: tools to start sort of you know, turning this into 410 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: a real program. And Con was like for my part, 411 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, I've got all these blueprints to show you 412 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: how to put this you know, big lego machine together. 413 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: And he sent at least one engineer, so like active involvement, 414 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: sending engineers to Dubai to like make sure they were 415 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: doing everything correctly, so like deep involvement at this point. 416 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Huge. So he had like middlemen from Europe, He 417 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 2: had designers from Switzerland. He had companies that were set 418 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 2: up to build the parts that were being shipped from Turkey, 419 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 2: from Malaysia to Turkey to Dubai where they were repackaged 420 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 2: and sent on to Libya. It was a huge network. Also, 421 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 2: I forgot to say earlier. By this time, the CON 422 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 2: network had their own sales bruchures that they used to 423 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 2: hand out at ARM sales fares, which apparently they have 424 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 2: ARM sales fares, but they had brochures by this point. 425 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 2: That's that's how set up they were, I guess how established. 426 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 2: That's what I was going for so it was a huge, 427 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 2: huge network. But it was one of these shipments that 428 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 2: somehow got intercepted and I think two thousand and three 429 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 2: aboard the a ship called the BBC China, which as 430 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 2: far as I noticed, I have anything to do with 431 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: the BBC, And that was the thing that brought the 432 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 2: whole thing down. Eventually, Chuck I proposed that since I 433 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 2: remembered the word established, that kind of says we. 434 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: Should take a break, all right, we'll be right back. 435 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 2: So the whole thing came down with that Libya thing. 436 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: Remember they had this amazing network going, all these amazing 437 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 2: all this amazing subtrifuge going somehow, I don't know how, 438 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: but a particular shipment aboard a ship called the BBC 439 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 2: China was captured in I think, leaving Dubai en route 440 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 2: to Libya. And at this point aq Con had basically 441 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 2: been under great suspicion. I think he was being investigated 442 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 2: by CIA and MI six at the same time. But 443 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot you could do about this if 444 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 2: you were the US, because you needed Pakistan at the time, 445 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 2: as we'll talk about in a second. But when this 446 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 2: shipment was found, it was a massive shipment of centrifuge 447 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 2: is going to Libya. It was just all out in 448 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 2: the open now, there was just no denying it. Even 449 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 2: Pakistan couldn't protect aq Kan anymore. 450 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And like you said, it was pretty complicated. 451 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it's always been fairly complicated, with US and 452 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: Pakistan as being like sometimes bedfellows because they were necessary 453 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: for the US until they weren't, and then you know, 454 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: that's when the US could take action. But in the eighties, 455 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: you know, we were supplying military aid to Pakistan to 456 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: help support the fight against Soviets in Afghanistan, so we 457 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: couldn't really, you know, even though we intelligence services knew 458 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: that they had a nuclear program going and even where 459 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: that technology was coming from, there wasn't a lot we 460 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: could do at the time. In the mid eighties they 461 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,959 Speaker 1: caught Congress threatened to cut off that military aid unless 462 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: Reagan could promise that they didn't they weren't producing nuclear weapons. 463 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: And so for five years from eighty five to ninety, 464 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: I guess Reagan and George H. W. Bush would certify 465 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: that Pakistan didn't have a nuclear weapons program. And then 466 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety, once the Soviets were out of Afghanistan. Coincidentally, 467 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,719 Speaker 1: not really, Bush said, you know what, I'm not going 468 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: to sign that certification anymore, and we're going to stop 469 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: the flow of a to Pakistan. 470 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is I mean, talk about a screwjob. But apparently, Chuck, 471 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 2: we were so in bed with Pakistan during the Soviet 472 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 2: occupation of Afghanistan that we were flying YouTube bomber flights 473 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 2: to surveil Russia out of Pakistan. We had an NSA 474 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 2: listening station there, like we needed them big time. But 475 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 2: once we didn't anymore, we could start to press them 476 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 2: on Aq Khan and that was when this whole thing 477 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 2: started to kind of fall apart. But again, it wasn't 478 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 2: until two thousand and three that the BBC China was 479 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 2: intercepted and the whole thing was on the table. But 480 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 2: by this time the pressure that the US had been 481 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 2: putting on Pakistan was enough that the president at the time, 482 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 2: Proves Mushariff, who was the president of Pakistan around the 483 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 2: time of nine to eleven and the subsequent invasion of Afghanistan, 484 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 2: he essentially was like, Okay, I've got to do something, 485 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:20,719 Speaker 2: So he dismissed Khan from the research laboratories that by 486 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 2: this time bore his own name. They were called the 487 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 2: Doctor aq Khan Research Laboratories, the National Nuclear Research Laboratories 488 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 2: in Pakistan, and they were like, you're not the director 489 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 2: of those anymore, but we're still friends, so you can 490 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 2: be a government advisor. 491 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's I don't know, I don't know 492 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: enough about it, but that seemed to be very much 493 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: just sort of like, hey, look what we're doing. We're 494 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: saying he doesn't have that job anymore. Didn't that what 495 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: was going on? 496 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? And the US had to put up with it 497 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 2: because by this time we were in Afghanistan and we 498 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 2: needed Pakistan him in just as much as we did 499 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: when the Soviets were in Afghanistan. Because no one learns 500 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 2: from history. 501 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: That's right. So after that two thousand and three cargo 502 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: ship exposure, I guess in December of that year, that's 503 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: when Gaddafi of Libya said, all right, you know what, 504 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to shut down our nuclear program. 505 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 2: I'm really sorry. 506 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: United States didn't mean it and really sold con down 507 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: the river and said this is the guy. He's been 508 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: supplying us with materials and we're friends, right. 509 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, Apparently Kadafi was really really worried after the US 510 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 2: invaded Iraq that he was going to be next, and 511 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: he was right, but it was eight years down the road. Yeah, 512 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 2: but I guess he He went so far as to 513 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 2: show them like centrifuge labs that were described or disguised 514 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 2: as chicken farms, and the whole time he's like, it 515 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: was CON. It was CON. It was CON. And he 516 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 2: gave I six and the CIA documents on how to 517 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 2: build a nuclear warhead that he said CON had given him. 518 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 2: So he really sold them down the river. And by 519 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 2: this point, the CIA chief at the time, George Tennant, 520 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 2: had enough to go to pervezmer Sharff and was like, 521 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 2: it's not enough to fire this guy from his job, 522 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 2: like he's an international nuclear proliferation dealer and you need 523 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 2: to do something much more pronounced. And Mouchharff said, Okay, 524 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 2: I got it, I got it. We're going to make 525 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 2: him apologize and we're going to put him under house 526 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 2: arrests and then four days after that, I'm going to 527 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 2: pardon him. What do you think? 528 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, they put him on TV. He did confess, he 529 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: did apologize, he did all that stuff, said he was 530 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: he took the fall. He said, you know, I wasn't 531 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: acting on the direction of my government. I was doing 532 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: this on my own. And you know, I think everyone 533 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: even at the time, kind of saw through that he 534 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: would pardon him. I mean, the initial arrest was like 535 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: a real arrest, but then he pardoned him and put 536 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: him under house arrests. And that whole time though, Pakistan 537 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: was still like, no, CIA, you can't like same with 538 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: the International Atomic Energy Agency, you can't come in here 539 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: and ask him questions directly, like we're still shielding him 540 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: from you. 541 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, And they continued to even after they let him 542 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 2: out of house arrest. I also saw one other little note. 543 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 2: He had a jasmine shrub trimmed in the shape of 544 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 2: a topiary mushroom cloud outside of his house. 545 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: Did he really is that a joke? 546 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 2: No? Well, at least as far as I think Time 547 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 2: magazine reported back in two thousand and five he did. 548 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: That's the one time I thought you were actually thought 549 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: you were pulling my leg, and it was the truth. 550 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: So I don't even know what to think of. 551 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 2: I like to mix it up and keep you guessing, buddy, 552 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 2: he got to keep you on your toes. Uh. 553 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. People from Walt Disney World actually came and did 554 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: that Is that true? The best No, So in two 555 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, the Pakistani government said, you know, this 556 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: is internally of course, they were like, hey, we should 557 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: let's just get him out of house too, because this 558 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: is all just for show anyway, right, And the US 559 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: was trying to work with Pakistan at the time to 560 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: fight against al Qaeda. So again we were in a 561 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: position as the US to we couldn't publicly come out 562 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: and say like, you can't like let this guy out 563 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: of house arrest because once again we needed Pakistan. 564 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 2: We did. And Seymour Hirsh, the very very very famous 565 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 2: investigative reporter who broke the Mili massacre and that Osama 566 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 2: bin Laden have been assassinated and so on, he reported 567 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 2: back in two thousand and five that the US went 568 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 2: along with it because Pakistan agreed to hand over all 569 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 2: of the information they had on the nuclear program they 570 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 2: had helped Iran start to build. And so the US 571 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 2: was like, okay, that's a deal. Well, we'll take your 572 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 2: Iranian secrets and then we'll just kind of look the 573 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: other way. And the slap on the wrist that you 574 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 2: guys are giving a q Khan. 575 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so interesting, like with the recent stuff with 576 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: the US and Iran, Like when people try to argue 577 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: about what's going on and they say, no, it's because 578 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: of this thing that happened under Biden or Obama, or 579 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: no it's Trump's fault. It's like, this stuff goes back 580 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: decades and decades. If you really want to trace back 581 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: to like the origins of all these issues, you know, 582 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: it's like you can't just look. You can't look. Yeah, 583 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: you can't look back at one previous administration if you 584 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: really want to investigate the true roots of this stuff. 585 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 2: It's interesting because you had Carter getting in bed with 586 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: Pakistan because the Russians invaded Afghanistan under his watch. You 587 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 2: had Reagan and then hw Bush certifying every year lying 588 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 2: that Pakistan didn't have a program, and so on and 589 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 2: so forth. And yeah, that's actually a really important point. 590 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 2: One of the reasons a Q Khan was allowed to 591 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 2: continue proliferating nuclear programs to countries the US don't want 592 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 2: to have nuclear programs is because the US looked the 593 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 2: other way on it. That's a huge factor in his success. 594 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. Eventually he was fully released in two thousand 595 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: and nine, and they still said Hey, you can't, like 596 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: you said, you can't interview him even now that he's 597 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: that he's out, you know, United States or you know, 598 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: international nuclear commissions, like just stay away from them. And 599 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: there are a lot of Pakistanis that think he's a hero. 600 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: Like he came out later on, and even though he 601 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: took the fall, he came out later and was basically like, 602 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, like why should they have all the nukes? 603 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: Why why should those original five countries have all this power? 604 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: He had a quote that said, are these bastards God 605 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: appointed guardians of the world to stockpile hundreds of thousands 606 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: of nuclear warheads? And have they God given authority to 607 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: carry out explosions every month? So this was in an 608 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 1: op ed in Derschpiegel magazine, a German magazine. So he's 609 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 1: very much a hero to a lot of people in 610 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: Pakistan still for sort of saying, hey, Muslim countries need 611 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: to have the same weapons that you have. 612 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like we talked about all the way back 613 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 2: in the seventies, patriotism certainly seems to have motivated him. 614 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:06,720 Speaker 2: For sure. 615 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: He also had money. 616 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, he also made a lot of money. I saw 617 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 2: an estimate that at his PQ is worth about four 618 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 2: hundred million dollars. Yeah, and bear in mind he's on 619 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 2: paper still just a civil servant, a scientist, a highly 620 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 2: respected scientist, but he works for the government, and now 621 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 2: he's worth four hundred million dollars. He died and a 622 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 2: hotel he did in Molly and I looked it up 623 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 2: and only as like two point six out of five 624 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 2: stars on trip Advisor. Doesn't look that nice, but yeah, 625 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 2: it's in Timbuck two. And I guess it's in competition 626 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 2: to the Biospherians hotel. They had one in Timbuk two, right, 627 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 2: that's right. 628 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought of that immediately. I guess that's the 629 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: place to open a hotel if you want to, you know, 630 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,280 Speaker 1: fill out the hotel here for hotel yah waters. 631 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 2: Do you want to get your feet wet? For sure? 632 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. He eventually passed away. Aq Con died in 633 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: October twenty twenty one, apparently died of COVID nineteen. And 634 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: he got a full military funeral, even though he was, 635 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: you know, not a part of their military. 636 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 2: No, but that really goes to show what a national 637 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 2: hero he was considered then and now this is twenty 638 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 2: twenty one. I think, to me, the biggest the biggest 639 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 2: shock of all this is that he managed to live 640 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 2: to be an old man and die of COVID. Like 641 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 2: the fact that he wasn't assassinated during his career when 642 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 2: he was putting out brochures for his services, and the 643 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 2: fact that he wasn't assassinated by the Pakistani military because 644 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 2: they were worried he was going to start pointing fingers 645 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 2: like it's nuts. This guy managed to stay alive. But 646 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 2: he did. And he was a public figure too. He 647 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 2: used to write op eds in the newspaper once in 648 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 2: a while. He was like a public intellectual in Pakistan. 649 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 2: He was a big deal throughout his life. It's not 650 00:36:58,200 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 2: like he went into hiding. He did the oppoice. 651 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, very interesting. 652 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 2: And then one thing I saw, though, the irony of 653 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 2: all this is that supposedly his technology didn't work all 654 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 2: that well. North Korea ended up abandoning the centrifuge program 655 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 2: in favor of plutonium, and I think even Pakistan's arsenal 656 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 2: is largely based on plutonium now rather than highly enriched uranium. 657 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. I wonder if that was any kind of ruse 658 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: on his part, But it seemed like he really did 659 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: believe in uranium. 660 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it does work. I think, who knows. Maybe 661 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,919 Speaker 2: it's just harder to do when you have to keep 662 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 2: it secret. I don't know. But one other thing I 663 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,760 Speaker 2: want to shout out. There's a Adam Curtis documentary. Remember 664 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 2: he's the one who did the Century of the Self 665 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 2: that we talked a lot about in the PR episode. 666 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 2: He did one called Hypernormalization and it covers a lot 667 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 2: of Cutaffi and Libya throughout the years and his relationship 668 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 2: with the US and basically makes the has the theory 669 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 2: that Kadafi was essentially an international punching bag for the 670 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 2: US for show that the the US beat up on 671 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 2: kind of with his Agreement tests agreement because the US 672 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 2: wasn't able or didn't think it was able to take 673 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 2: on the real issue in the Middle East, which was Syria, 674 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 2: the real strong man in the Middle East. So they 675 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 2: made Kaddafi look like a strong man that he wasn't 676 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,800 Speaker 2: so that they could pummel him in the public sphere 677 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 2: and look like they were doing something about Middle East 678 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 2: problems at the time. 679 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: I'll say one thing about Kadafi is he could he 680 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: could rock those aviators. 681 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and that that perm. 682 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, two looks that I've never been able to pull off. 683 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 2: I would pay good money to see you try, though, 684 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 2: I have a feeling as a photoshop in the future. 685 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: I'm looking at him right now. He kind of looked 686 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 1: a little bit like Carlos Santana. 687 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, he got he got mistaken for that 688 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 2: all the time. He thought that was like, yeah, and 689 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 2: Santana too, but it was not as good for Santana 690 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,800 Speaker 2: to be mistaken as Kadafi. Yeah, yeah, you got anything 691 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:08,959 Speaker 2: else about aq Kahn? 692 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: I got nothing else. 693 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,359 Speaker 2: I don't either, which means, of course, everybody, it's time 694 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 2: for a listener mail. 695 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: This is a not a correction, just a little bit 696 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: of added info. Hey guys, we've heard from a few 697 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:29,320 Speaker 1: people by the way from Canada, specifically about Phil Hartman. 698 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: Love the show, guys, my favorite podcast for years now. 699 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: As a huge comedy and huge SNL fan. I really 700 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: appreciated your recent Phil Hartman podcast. You said in your 701 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: show that you surmised he was probably the second most 702 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: famous person from Branford after Wayne Gretzky, but also qualified 703 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 1: there were probably someone else that you might be missing 704 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: that was more famous. Just wanted to pass along that 705 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: Alexander Graham Bell was born in Branford and this is 706 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: arguably the most famous person born in Branford, Ontario, ahead 707 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 1: of Gretzky and then Hartman. I think I agree with 708 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: that Jay. That is Jay Hammer from Hamilton, Ontario. 709 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 2: Thanks Jay, It was a short and sweet email and 710 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 2: we love those kind and yeah, I would agree to 711 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 2: Alexander Graham Bell is probably more famous even than Wayne Gretzky. 712 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: Oh hooy. 713 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 2: If you want to be like Jay and get in 714 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 2: touch with us and set us straight about something, we 715 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 2: love that kind of thing, you can send it via 716 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 2: email to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 717 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 718 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,879 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 719 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.