Speaker 1: I realized have the career and the life that looks
Speaker 1: like the dream. But are you really happy? Emma? Are
Speaker 1: you really healthy? And have to admit to myself that
Speaker 1: I wasn't was one of the scariest things I've ever
Speaker 1: had to do.
Speaker 2: The number one health and wellness podcast Shed j Shenny
Speaker 2: Shed Emma, welcome to on Purpose. I'm so grateful that
Speaker 2: you're here. And you know you've kind of been out
Speaker 2: of the public eye for a while now. Yes, and
Speaker 2: don't do that many interviews. I've watched the interviews you
Speaker 2: have done even before we plan to do this, and
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask from an intention point almost why now?
Speaker 2: Why today? Why here?
Speaker 1: I think I mentioned but I read your book because
Speaker 1: my dear friend Nupah told me that I should, and
Speaker 1: every now and again I would see you come up
Speaker 1: on my feed. I don't spend much time on Instagram anymore,
Speaker 1: but when I did, I just felt like you were
Speaker 1: having a different conversation. And it's not that I have
Speaker 1: stopped doing interviews because I want to hide myself away.
Speaker 1: I think it's because I wanted to be able to
Speaker 1: have a certain type of conversation that I didn't seem
Speaker 1: able to find a space for and so I called
Speaker 1: Nooper and said, I think I just reached out to
Speaker 1: Jay to see if you would let me come into
Speaker 1: this podcast on Monday. And she was like, I've been
Speaker 1: waiting for this. I wondered when you would do this.
Speaker 1: I was like, how did you know I was going
Speaker 1: to do it. She's like, I don't know. I just
Speaker 1: felt like this was coming. So here I am, and
Speaker 1: you said yes, and the timing worked. I contacted you
Speaker 1: last week and it's Monday, and so.
Speaker 2: Well from well, that means the world to me. Truly,
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for that because the few interactions and
Speaker 2: conversations we've had since then, and you've sent me a
Speaker 2: few things to read over, whether it's journals or reflections,
Speaker 2: and honestly, I think I just said it to you
Speaker 2: a few moments ago, and I mean it, even if
Speaker 2: we weren't having this conversation today and you just sent
Speaker 2: me those things to reflect on myself, that would have
Speaker 2: already been a gift. And so the opportunity to actually
Speaker 2: sit with you and to talk about these things and
Speaker 2: have this space to have a conversation that you feel
Speaker 2: you haven't had before means the world to me, and
Speaker 2: so thank you for trusting me, and I look forward
Speaker 2: to getting to know you so much better. But let's
Speaker 2: dive in. I wanted I wanted to start by asking you, like,
Speaker 2: you said something there that was really beautiful because you
Speaker 2: stopped for a moment. Then you said, it's easier to
Speaker 2: be honest, and I was like, I wanted to understand
Speaker 2: what that meant to you and how that feels.
Speaker 1: Such a big part of my job was trying to
Speaker 1: think three steps ahead of how everything that I would
Speaker 1: say would be could negatively impact the film that I
Speaker 1: was trying to do justice to and do service to
Speaker 1: and make sure that people understood what the director had intended.
Speaker 1: And I felt this enormous sense of responsibility all the
Speaker 1: time to honor so many people's work that put to
Speaker 1: gather something like a film or you know, even to
Speaker 1: some degree. I just did a fragrance with Prada and
Speaker 1: it's the first perfume bottle that you can like refill,
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I take my job seriously, I guess,
Speaker 1: and so interviews to me felt a lot like chess,
Speaker 1: and it required so much energy, and I think, what's
Speaker 1: nice about the way that I'm showing up today is
Speaker 1: I'm just showing up for myself and for once, I
Speaker 1: actually I'm not here to speak on behalf of anyone
Speaker 1: else or anything else other than myself, which is unusual.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's such a fascinating thing because as
Speaker 2: a viewer, even before I got closer to the industry,
Speaker 2: as a viewer, everything's made to feel in traditional media
Speaker 2: so easy, and it has levity and it feels like
Speaker 2: you're getting someone's real personality, and then you realize that
Speaker 2: you are. There's definitely reality to it and truth to it. Yes,
Speaker 2: same time, naturally, it's work, Yeah, and there's a job,
Speaker 2: and I think it's not as and you can shed
Speaker 2: more light on this. I don't think it's always as
Speaker 2: insidious or as dark as people may think it is.
Speaker 2: But there's just it's a job and it's work, and
Speaker 2: there's results that matter the right one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: And I think within those contexts, everyone is trying to
Speaker 1: be as authentic as they humanly can be. But there's
Speaker 1: something about I think it's what I mentioned earlier about
Speaker 1: why I felt like this was a good space. There's
Speaker 1: something inherently written into certain types of forms of media
Speaker 1: which is that it doesn't matter what intentional or how
Speaker 1: authentically you want to show up, but the form somehow
Speaker 1: doesn't allow it. Yeah, to some degree, And I've become
Speaker 1: obsessed with this recently. I've been looking at, Okay, what
Speaker 1: is written into the form of something like Twitter or
Speaker 1: Instagram or TikTok, or a podcast versus or a photograph
Speaker 1: versus a film versus a piece of writing, And it's
Speaker 1: really interesting to see what a different medium or different
Speaker 1: form allows or doesn't allow, and or like actually creates
Speaker 1: or encourages. I've never done a podcast before, but I
Speaker 1: love I think what I love about it is the
Speaker 1: is the intimacy of it. It's like, I feel like
Speaker 1: people listen to podcasts when they're like I certainly do anyway,
Speaker 1: Like first thing in the morning, when I'm taking my
Speaker 1: shower or I'm going on my walk or I'm making
Speaker 1: my breakfast. It's really like personal, intimate time. And I
Speaker 1: think the long form version of these kinds of conversations
Speaker 1: allows for such a different kind of discussion that I
Speaker 1: don't think was possible before.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I can agree with you more. I was
Speaker 2: going to ask you, actually, because I want everyone to
Speaker 2: get up to date with where you are now, Like
Speaker 2: what is what is your day to day life look like?
Speaker 2: You just said, like I wake up in a shower
Speaker 2: and I've go on a walk, Like what does your
Speaker 2: day to day life look like right now? And what
Speaker 2: makes what's it made of? And one of the things
Speaker 2: that you love and look forward to.
Speaker 1: I recently started riding a bicycle, and yes, I said
Speaker 1: riding my school before my driving ban, but now it's
Speaker 1: acually for titus. But I also ride a bicycle for
Speaker 1: that reason.
Speaker 2: But that was mainstream news. Oh my god.
Speaker 1: I was getting phone called like it's on the BBC,
Speaker 1: It's on international worldwide news. I was like, my shame
Speaker 1: is everywhere? This is I mean what I say, it's
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think in a funny way. What
Speaker 1: the sweetest result of it was getting so many messages
Speaker 1: from being people being like, happen to me too, I
Speaker 1: feel you. This is awful. It sucks, which was kind
Speaker 1: of nice in a way, but yeah, totally do you
Speaker 1: need a left It's like, actually yes, but I think again,
Speaker 1: it's funny, like I went from when you work on movies,
Speaker 1: I don't know if people know this, but like they
Speaker 1: literally will not ensure you to drive yourself to work.
Speaker 1: I've asked so many times, you have to be driven.
Speaker 1: You have to be driven. It's like not a choice,
Speaker 1: and especially because they need you there, you know, down
Speaker 1: to the minute, basically depending on what they have going on.
Speaker 1: And so I went from basically only driving myself on
Speaker 1: week ordering holiday and then when I became student, driving
Speaker 1: myself all the time. And yeah, I did not have
Speaker 1: the experience or skills clearly which I now will and
Speaker 1: and do. But I think again, this was one of
Speaker 1: these like awkward transitions I made from kind of living
Speaker 1: this like very very structured life to living a life
Speaker 1: where I was like, Okay, I guess I'm going to
Speaker 1: get myself to this place and I'm going to like
Speaker 1: do this thing that I've basically not done since I
Speaker 1: was ten years old. So it's been a discovery and
Speaker 1: a journey that's been Yeah, I guess humbling because on
Speaker 1: a movie SAT I'm able to do all of these
Speaker 1: like extremely complex things stunts saying dance like do this thing,
Speaker 1: do that whatever, and I'm like, yep, don't worry about it, guys,
Speaker 1: no worries. I've got you. And then I get home
Speaker 1: and I'm like Okay, Emma, you teom money able to
Speaker 1: remember keys, you get money, able to like keep yourself
Speaker 1: at thirty miles an hour in a thirty mins, I'll
Speaker 1: speed limit, like you don't seem able to do some
Speaker 1: pretty like basic life things. And it was definitely kind
Speaker 1: of Yeah. I had days where I just wanted to
Speaker 1: turn around to people and be like I used to
Speaker 1: be good at things. Okay, I used to be really
Speaker 1: good at things. And I know it doesn't look like
Speaker 1: that right now, but I used to. I can do
Speaker 1: things normally. So yeah, it's been it's been humbling.
Speaker 2: I feel I feel like all of us. I feel
Speaker 2: like all of us can relate to that, though, really,
Speaker 2: because doesn't everyone forget their keys their wallet, doesn't know
Speaker 2: where things are like these are these are like series.
Speaker 2: And by the way, I was, I think I was
Speaker 2: three points away from losing my license before I moved
Speaker 2: to the States.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that confession. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2: So because I was in the States for I've been
Speaker 2: in the States now for nine years, and I think
Speaker 2: it happened just but then all the points get wiped
Speaker 2: off and I think I'm now back to six points.
Speaker 2: I spent two months in London a year. Okay, every
Speaker 2: time I go back, I seem to.
Speaker 1: Very much better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm confessing to.
Speaker 1: A lot of people. Actually, a lot of people have
Speaker 1: like taken it upon themselves to come and confess to me,
Speaker 1: which I've found like very like very endearing and like
Speaker 1: really really appreciate it. But no, I think, you know,
Speaker 1: I think something I've been realizing is we most of
Speaker 1: us live in a state of like, I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to kind of figure it out and keep it together,
Speaker 1: and the only thing that is different between us is
Speaker 1: people's willingness to be honest about that, the degree to
Speaker 1: which they can admit to actually I'm just like scrabbling
Speaker 1: around trying to keep the reasons together versus oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, everything's amazing and everything's incredible and I'm having
Speaker 1: the best day ever and aren't you? And you know
Speaker 1: so I do love the people who are just willing
Speaker 1: to be like, yeah, it's it's not going so well today,
Speaker 1: I'm like, very amazing. What a good starting point? Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, failure as a starting point feels like
Speaker 1: I feel like attempting things is so compelling, and of
Speaker 1: course success is wonderful, But I love to see people
Speaker 1: who are like, I'm really bad at this, but I'm
Speaker 1: going to try. I love you. That's everything to me.
Speaker 2: And that seems to be becoming harder and harder now,
Speaker 2: Like that desire to attempt something that you would be
Speaker 2: good at, Yeah, because it's exposed, or because everyone will
Speaker 2: see it, or because everyone will hear about it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: talking about attempting things, I mean you're currently studying, right,
Speaker 2: you're learning?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, Well, two things I want to say there
Speaker 1: is I think in a way I was sort of
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm someone who's always cared about vulnerability and authenticity,
Speaker 1: but I think I was also forced into it to
Speaker 1: a degree that that maybe even I wasn't ready for,
Speaker 1: and that like I just started so young that like
Speaker 1: I had to learn in public. I had to make
Speaker 1: mistakes in public and say, oh, okay, now I've learned this,
Speaker 1: and I had to be willing to go back and
Speaker 1: be like, hmm, like there are some gats here and
Speaker 1: here's what I know now. And I think people's I
Speaker 1: agree with you. I think it's becoming increasingly difficult to
Speaker 1: learn in public and continuing to learn. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think that's one of the reasons why I have gone
Speaker 1: back to school and why I continue to do it
Speaker 1: is because I want to make sure that I have
Speaker 1: things to say that are worth saying. And I think
Speaker 1: you can only do that if you take a minute
Speaker 1: sometimes and.
Speaker 2: Listen to some.
Speaker 1: People who aren't you, you know, like not just the
Speaker 1: sound of my own, my own wonderful voice. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been it's been great. And I think also I
Speaker 1: needed to I wanted to be inspired. I think being
Speaker 1: around my favorite piece has been being around young people
Speaker 1: who still believe that the world is malleable and things
Speaker 1: are changeable, and and that like anything can be done
Speaker 1: is such important energy. There's so much dystopian fiction at
Speaker 1: the moment, and dystopian movies so dark, and I'm just like,
Speaker 1: what happened to thinking about the utopia? What happened to
Speaker 1: like planning for the best case scenario? Like where where
Speaker 1: did we lose? Yeah? Vision, excitement, imagination, possibility. So I
Speaker 1: think it's been. Yeah, it's been wonderful to be around
Speaker 1: young people and just to sit there and listen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you ever I mean, you clearly read so much.
Speaker 1: Do you have to take yourself away to do it?
Speaker 1: In order to be able to do it? Do you
Speaker 1: have to call it an off time? Like, how are
Speaker 1: you still managing to study and learn because that seems
Speaker 1: like it's important to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you reminded me as you were talking of one
Speaker 2: of my spiritual teachers, my monk teacher, who always said
Speaker 2: to me, if you want to move three steps forward,
Speaker 2: you have to go three steps deep first.
Speaker 1: WHOA.
Speaker 2: And what I've found often in my life is I'm
Speaker 2: trying to go four steps forward and i haven't yet
Speaker 2: gone four steps deep. And so it's almost like, I mean,
Speaker 2: this is probably a terrible analogy, but maybe thinking of
Speaker 2: the movie The Substance, I don't know if you watched it,
Speaker 2: get terrible, let's rema, no, no, no, let's forget about it.
Speaker 2: But it's that idea of like every extra step you
Speaker 2: take when you haven't learned, and you haven't experimented, and
Speaker 2: you haven't attempted, is taking away from your ability to
Speaker 2: move forward. And sometimes I think when we feel stuck,
Speaker 2: or when we think things are not moving or they're
Speaker 2: not progressing, we may be a signed to say, well,
Speaker 2: pause and go deeper for a second, or pause and
Speaker 2: go inward for a second. And so to me, hearing
Speaker 2: that from you. I find that and I'm I definitely
Speaker 2: fail at this all the time. There are so many
Speaker 2: times I'm trying to push more forward than I've gone deep.
Speaker 2: And so whenever I notice there myself and I notice
Speaker 2: that I'm just kind of trying everything and nothing is working,
Speaker 2: it's actually just the universe and self saying to me,
Speaker 2: go read, go study. And so I've found that I've
Speaker 2: had to really carve out time to make time to
Speaker 2: do what I love, which is to read and study.
Speaker 2: But I've found that I'm someone who doesn't love thirty
Speaker 2: minutes a day. I'm not that kind of a reader.
Speaker 2: I'm someone who needs to read for three or four hours,
Speaker 2: if not more. And so I found that carving out deep,
Speaker 2: immersive time is more important to me than this kind
Speaker 2: of mechanical thirty forty minutes a day, which is great
Speaker 2: for you if that works for you as a habit,
Speaker 2: it doesn't for me because I'm a bit of an
Speaker 2: extremist and I just need to spend a whole weekend reading, yeah,
Speaker 2: as opposed to I don't need to read every day.
Speaker 2: So I'll try, and I try once a month on
Speaker 2: a weekend to just absorb into a subject that I love,
Speaker 2: and I'll take a course, I'll go to a class,
Speaker 2: I'll watch a Ted talk online, I'll read as many
Speaker 2: books as I can, and I try and immerse myself
Speaker 2: that way. What's your learning stuff?
Speaker 1: I'm the same as you. And actually someone who I
Speaker 1: really respect and ask for advice for offer and I
Speaker 1: asked for feedback on myself. He said to me, Emma,
Speaker 1: I think if you did ninety percent of what you
Speaker 1: wanted to do at fifty percent of the speed, you
Speaker 1: would get so much more like life would be so
Speaker 1: much better. And I was like, wow, fifty percent of
Speaker 1: the speed and only ninety percent of what I want
Speaker 1: to do. And he was like, I think that's the
Speaker 1: minimum to be honest, And I was like wow, But
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, what you said resonates. I think I
Speaker 1: often have to remind myself that it's not about speedily
Speaker 1: getting somewhere. It's just not the point. Things are supposed
Speaker 1: to happen with a certain timing. And so, yeah, resonates,
Speaker 1: And to your point, I cannot just sit for thirty
Speaker 1: minutes and look at something I need. I need kind
Speaker 1: of like a week on holiday, and then I'll start
Speaker 1: to deeply get into something and I need quiet and
Speaker 1: I hyper focus and I that's when I you know,
Speaker 1: I love it, but I can't. I can't do a
Speaker 1: little itty bitty bits.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Nuts, it just doesn't work.
Speaker 1: It doesn't work.
Speaker 2: It doesn't work. For you said that you felt that
Speaker 2: you had to learn in public. Yeah, you made mistakes,
Speaker 2: like what were mistakes that felt like mistakes then that
Speaker 2: made you feel like, oh gosh, I made that mistake
Speaker 2: in public. But I was ten years old or whatever
Speaker 2: it was, and now you look back and you think, oh,
Speaker 2: you know I was able to process it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think the big one was feminism and intersectional feminism,
Speaker 1: and frankly, it just like wasn't taught, you know, I
Speaker 1: had to really seek out. And I'm really grateful actually
Speaker 1: that I was in many ways quite lovingly called in
Speaker 1: as opposed to I mean, some of it was not.
Speaker 1: But I think that was definitely a moment where I
Speaker 1: had to say, Okay, I'm talking about something really big
Speaker 1: and important and it's actually really important to sit this
Speaker 1: in some context, which I have not done. And I
Speaker 1: think that was a big moment. I think it was
Speaker 1: more there was an omission that there was things that
Speaker 1: were missing as opposed to I had said something wrong.
Speaker 1: I just needed I just needed to fill in more gaps.
Speaker 1: And so that was when I started, or that was
Speaker 1: actually in the middle. I had a feminist book club
Speaker 1: called the Art Chared Sheelf, and so that was part
Speaker 1: of those conversations. But it was a good moment for
Speaker 1: me to learn that feeling uncomfortable sometimes is good. I
Speaker 1: think we have an alarm system that goes off, which
Speaker 1: is I'm uncomfortable. This feels uncomfortable, so something bad must
Speaker 1: be happening, and I must leave as soon as possible.
Speaker 1: And actually, I think that was when I started to learn, Oh,
Speaker 1: actually me being uncomfortable in a space might be a
Speaker 1: good sign because it might mean I'm about to learn something.
Speaker 1: And I want to attribute this. That was Mara Ala
Speaker 1: Rasai who who helped me understand that and was a
Speaker 1: very very valuable teaching So now when I'm in a
Speaker 1: space and listening to things and I feel uncomfortable, I
Speaker 1: don't think it means I need to bolt or something
Speaker 1: bad's happening. Yeah, maybe something really good it's about to happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And I feel like that goes back to
Speaker 2: what we started with, this idea of attempting means discomfort
Speaker 2: means yeah, And I love I love that point you
Speaker 2: made that. Actually, whenever we're sharing anything, it's not that
Speaker 2: it's not true, it's that it's not complete. Yes, And
Speaker 2: mostly when we see people say things or share ideas,
Speaker 2: it's very rare to have anyone ever share a complete
Speaker 2: idea because that means they would have had to think
Speaker 2: about it from every single vantage point, which is not
Speaker 2: even humanly possible.
Speaker 1: It's not possible. It's not possible. And I think Adrian
Speaker 1: Marie Brown, I don't know if you've ever had she's
Speaker 1: she wrote an amazing book which is one of her
Speaker 1: more recent ones were just called Loving Corrections, and she
Speaker 1: speaks to kind of exactly this, which is, there's kind
Speaker 1: of this like aya that we see online when people
Speaker 1: don't attribute something perfectly to someone else or they're missing something,
Speaker 1: and it's like, isn't the whole point of this that
Speaker 1: we're in conversation And if it's the right person, you
Speaker 1: can see that a good intention is there, then maybe
Speaker 1: we can kind of do it in a way that
Speaker 1: doesn't need to be Obviously, there's important time and place
Speaker 1: for holding people accountable, but maybe I don't know, attributing
Speaker 1: like great, we're all going to help each other, kind
Speaker 1: of pad this out, fill this out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a hard I think that's the
Speaker 2: hard part. It's like, how do you differentiate between holding
Speaker 2: someone accountable I'm giving them grace. That's a really interesting
Speaker 2: discussion in and of itself, and I don't think I
Speaker 2: have the answer or know exactly what it is, but
Speaker 2: I feel like that's a thought exercises humans that if
Speaker 2: we were to do it would actually I don't know
Speaker 2: what's your take.
Speaker 1: Maybe the grace is attributing good intention, and the accountability
Speaker 1: is the courage it takes to actually say something to
Speaker 1: someone because it's such a scary thing to do and
Speaker 1: it often requires a lot of emotional labor. And I
Speaker 1: find this a lot as a woman, especially as a
Speaker 1: woman who's dating that I will just be like, is
Speaker 1: it worth me explaining? Is it worth me explaining this thing?
Speaker 1: Should I just not take the time to do this,
Speaker 1: because sometimes I will, really I care about doing it
Speaker 1: kindly and compassionately, and it's very rare for me to
Speaker 1: attribute bad intent to anyone. But you know, sometimes it
Speaker 1: does fall on deaf ears and you're like that text
Speaker 1: message took me like forty minutes, like to word perfectly
Speaker 1: or that voice note or whatever. And you're like, is
Speaker 1: this making a difference? Like am I getting through to
Speaker 1: any is transformative justice?
Speaker 3: Real?
Speaker 1: Like this is this label worth it? But I think
Speaker 1: I don't have a perfect answer.
Speaker 4: I'm not.
Speaker 1: I haven't lived through enough of it to know. I
Speaker 1: guess I've just reached a point where it's like I'd
Speaker 1: rather I'd rather die trying, I'd rather die having tried.
Speaker 1: And maybe some small piece of it, even if it's
Speaker 1: not now, even if it's some future point, like something
Speaker 1: I've said just like goes oh something, but the back
Speaker 1: of my mind here someone says something to me, Then
Speaker 1: you know, maybe it's worth it.
Speaker 2: When you think about little Lemma, Yes, what was a
Speaker 2: childhood memory that you have, a core memory that you
Speaker 2: have that you feel has defined who you are today somewhat.
Speaker 1: I think I won't share the specific memory because it's
Speaker 1: so personal. But I think I've always felt other people's
Speaker 1: pain very intensely, until maybe recently, I did not know
Speaker 1: how to give myself grace and navigate seeing my sensitivity
Speaker 1: as a strength and knowing that it's like my gift.
Speaker 1: But it also means I have to care for it
Speaker 1: in specific ways. When you are given gifts, there's often
Speaker 1: kind of have to compensate in some other ways. And
Speaker 1: in the same way that my position in life and
Speaker 1: fame has given me this extraordinary power, it's also given
Speaker 1: me a lot of responsibility. And these things often have
Speaker 1: these kind of I don't know when or why it started,
Speaker 1: but I think I've always whoever it was that was
Speaker 1: suffering in the room, I was always the most aware
Speaker 1: of them, and I think that has formed a lot
Speaker 1: of why I could act. It was almost like I
Speaker 1: was kind of sucking all of this in and then
Speaker 1: I needed to let it out somewhere or unleash it somewhere.
Speaker 1: And I remember when my parents saw me on stage
Speaker 1: for the first time. Afterwards, they were just like, where
Speaker 1: did that come from? You don't have any of these experiences.
Speaker 1: I recorded a song for my twelfth birthday. My mum
Speaker 1: bought me a day in a recording studio, and I
Speaker 1: sing Natalie and really torn, like I've had my heartbroken
Speaker 1: fifty thousand times, you know, Like I've been married and
Speaker 1: divorced and whatever, and I'm twelve. I've never had a
Speaker 1: boyfriend and I don't know anything about love.
Speaker 2: Have you ever thought about where it came from? More?
Speaker 1: I would imagine, I can't say for sure, I would
Speaker 1: imagine that my family structure has not been a traditional
Speaker 1: family structure, and that feeling of knowing that I'm from
Speaker 1: a situation where we just don't quite fit the kind
Speaker 1: of nuclear family mold. And I think coming back from
Speaker 1: France and trying to figure out how to sort of
Speaker 1: integrate and being the eldest and having my younger brother
Speaker 1: and having my mom and like trying to sort of
Speaker 1: be some sort of glue or holding together for everyone's feelings.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that's probably where it That's where it started. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then I guess just being aware of other people
Speaker 1: who might feel the way I did, which is like
Speaker 1: who else in here doesn't feel like they quite fit?
Speaker 2: I've always found that it took me a while to recognize,
Speaker 2: but when I did, it was so helpful. That a
Speaker 2: lot of what I do today is because I mediated
Speaker 2: my parents' marriage growing on. Yeah, and so I developed
Speaker 2: all these skills of listening and empathy and grace and
Speaker 2: compassion because I was doing it for two people that
Speaker 2: I love, Yes, and I see it as a strength,
Speaker 2: and yes, it comes with it comes with certain things.
Speaker 2: For sure, it comes You're absolutely right. But at the
Speaker 2: same time, I've always seen it as a strength. Yes,
Speaker 2: And it's something that has served me well in my marriage,
Speaker 2: it served me well in my relationships. And at the
Speaker 2: same time, it has certain consequences that make you different
Speaker 2: or make you process things differently. And so yeah, And
Speaker 2: I remember one thing you shared with me that I
Speaker 2: was reading it. You said, I used to spend my
Speaker 2: weekdays with Mum and my weekends with dad, and you
Speaker 2: said it almost felt like you were changing costumes sometimes. Yes,
Speaker 2: and they're all like this two lives kind of Yes, Yes,
Speaker 2: And I feel that's so relatable. I feel like so
Speaker 2: many people can relate to that, whether whether their family
Speaker 2: was more traditional or wasn't. I think every child has
Speaker 2: had this feeling of not fitting in quite and knowing
Speaker 2: which life they're meant to lead, and that feels like
Speaker 2: it's kind of played into yours.
Speaker 1: Yes, for sure. I think it's also why I've had
Speaker 1: to really navigate my relationship towards art and acting, because
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that I was using acting as a
Speaker 1: way of escaping how painful my parents, Like, it wasn't
Speaker 1: just the divorce, it was just like the continuing situation
Speaker 1: of living between two different houses and two different lives
Speaker 1: and two different sets of values, and as a child,
Speaker 1: like being aware of like, hmm, we don't quite have
Speaker 1: the support we need here for this, like this is
Speaker 1: not quite We're not quite like and I think it
Speaker 1: does it makes you. It made me a slightly serious
Speaker 1: child because I was like, had that consciousness, and then
Speaker 1: when I would go and spend the weekend with my dad,
Speaker 1: it was like a very different set of rules, very
Speaker 1: different situation. And so you do you kind of like
Speaker 1: and I think everyone can relate to this to an
Speaker 1: extent that it's not that you are like wanting to
Speaker 1: become different people, but it's there are different expectations of
Speaker 1: you in different places that you understand that you need
Speaker 1: to fill. And so I think some of that split
Speaker 1: then became I was like, Okay, wow, you know my
Speaker 1: parents have very different views on different things. And the
Speaker 1: hard part of that was that no one gave me
Speaker 1: any easy answers. It meant I had to form all
Speaker 1: of my own opinions myself because there was no consensus,
Speaker 1: and it made me a critical thinker for sure, because
Speaker 1: and so that was amazing and also really like, gosh, okay,
Speaker 1: I need to decide what I think is important in
Speaker 1: life and what my opinions are. No one's handing me this.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Maybe it also made me aware of not wanting to
Speaker 1: be so split as well, and why it's been important
Speaker 1: to me to try to remain whole in all the
Speaker 1: different circumstances of my life and ask myself questions about
Speaker 1: how I can do that best, because I think I
Speaker 1: experienced as a child that the split is painful, Like
Speaker 1: if you're living a reality one way but presenting something else,
Speaker 1: those are the moments when it can you can really
Speaker 1: feel torn apart. And I reco recognized that, and I
Speaker 1: didn't want that to be my life. I didn't want
Speaker 1: pretend to be my real life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's so I can so relate to
Speaker 2: you personally on the idea of not having a blueprint
Speaker 2: and having to create my own. And how often when
Speaker 2: you don't have a blueprint, you feel you have two
Speaker 2: choices and that's where you feel torn. Whereas when you
Speaker 2: look at it as a whole and go, okay, well,
Speaker 2: now I get to craft my own narrative from this,
Speaker 2: and I may take a few pieces from here and
Speaker 2: a few pieces from here, and I'm going to form
Speaker 2: my own puzzle. Yeah, but I don't have to choose
Speaker 2: a path. It's really beautiful when you do it, but
Speaker 2: it's really hard in the beginning because it just feels
Speaker 2: like there are two parts. And I wanted to talk
Speaker 2: about how much that's impacted you know, your work, and
Speaker 2: you said there, you said that one thing you mentioned
Speaker 2: that really stood out to me was you felt that
Speaker 2: acting was in some way escaping that kind of which
Speaker 2: version I have to be. And I think so much
Speaker 2: of what we do for work, or so much of
Speaker 2: what we pursue as humans, is based on something we're
Speaker 2: trying to build, create, maybe escape from, maybe to reveal something,
Speaker 2: And I think we haven't often looked at work that way.
Speaker 2: Like sometimes we choose a career because we know it
Speaker 2: will make our parents happy and so we're living a pattern.
Speaker 2: Or sometimes you choose something because it breaks the pattern
Speaker 2: that you were growing up in. And it's fascinating to
Speaker 2: me to look at that. And for you, you were acting
Speaker 2: in school plays since you were a young girl, and
Speaker 2: was acting always something you were going to do or
Speaker 2: do you feel like it was this cross section of
Speaker 2: what was happening in your personal life that actually made
Speaker 2: that feel like the direction you would choose.
Speaker 1: I think it's so interesting that you said those words
Speaker 1: reveal and escape, that they're kind of the same thing,
Speaker 1: because I think that it all started with a poem.
Speaker 1: I did a poetry competition when I was nine, called
Speaker 1: the Daisy Prat Poetry Competition, and actually naturally quite a
Speaker 1: shy person, and so actually for me to stand up
Speaker 1: in front of people feels like an out of body experience,
Speaker 1: like there's so much adrenaline coursing through my veins that
Speaker 1: it does feel like a moment outside of time. And
Speaker 1: I remember the exhilaration of living the kind of ups
Speaker 1: and downs of this poem. And maybe because there wasn't
Speaker 1: space to have conversations or express myself at that time
Speaker 1: in the way that I needed to, I did it
Speaker 1: through performance. And I also did it as a way
Speaker 1: of getting to feel free for a moment of what
Speaker 1: I was like the discomfort of that time of not
Speaker 1: quite knowing who I was or how to be in
Speaker 1: the world. And as I've become more healed and whole
Speaker 1: and more comfortable being myself. It's been interesting to ask
Speaker 1: myself do you still need acting? Do you still need
Speaker 1: to act? Like? Why what are you doing that for?
Speaker 1: And like the kind of it used to feel like,
Speaker 1: almost like a compulsion that I needed to do it.
Speaker 1: And what's really interesting now is I don't feel quite
Speaker 1: that kind of urgency of needing to do it. And
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's because actually I have spaces where
Speaker 1: I can now take some of those feelings and talk
Speaker 1: about some of the things I don't think I had
Speaker 1: space to voice get out doing it on camera in
Speaker 1: one of thousands of people.
Speaker 2: Which is which is scary in its own way. Right,
Speaker 2: It's easy to to think, oh, that makes sense, but
Speaker 2: then it's like, well no, it's it's really challenging to
Speaker 2: do that second part, even if it makes sense rationally.
Speaker 2: And was that what in twenty nineteen when you kind
Speaker 2: of pulled away, was your reason I want to heal
Speaker 2: and work on myself or was it actually I don't
Speaker 2: feel a compulsion anymore, Like was that the inflection point
Speaker 2: of doing some self work or was that the inflection
Speaker 2: point of I need to pause?
Speaker 1: I realized I was drawing on painful stuff in my
Speaker 1: life that I was actually healing, and I didn't want
Speaker 1: to keep revisiting in order to do some of the
Speaker 1: more intense, scarier, sadder things that I had to do.
Speaker 1: I realized I remember by Bath's deathbed, by her graveside
Speaker 1: when we shot those films, like normally, there are like
Speaker 1: these painful memories that I would use for those moments,
Speaker 1: and I realized I was like, I don't know if
Speaker 1: this is super great for me actually to keep revisiting
Speaker 1: these or if I want to use these as my tools.
Speaker 1: And I don't think that means I'll never come back
Speaker 1: to acting. I think it just meant I was like, hmm,
Speaker 1: I wonder if there's a different way to do this.
Speaker 1: I think the second thing was to be really honest.
Speaker 1: I was coming to those sets with an expectation that
Speaker 1: I think I had developed on Harry Potter, which was
Speaker 1: that we were the people I worked with were going
Speaker 1: to be my family, and that we were going to
Speaker 1: be lifelong friends. I came to work looking for friendship,
Speaker 1: and that was a very painful experience for me outside
Speaker 1: of Harry Potter and in Hollywood, like bone breakingly painful,
Speaker 1: because most people don't come to those environments looking for friendships.
Speaker 1: They're looking for this is my chance, this is my role,
Speaker 1: this is what I went out of it. I'm focused,
Speaker 1: this is my job, this is my career, like let go.
Speaker 1: And I was not of that mindset, and so I
Speaker 1: found I found the rejection really painful, the friendship rejection.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, of like I really I was, like, I think
Speaker 1: it's so unusual to make a set of films for
Speaker 1: twelve years and we were a community, like we really were.
Speaker 1: And so I took that as an expectation into my
Speaker 1: into my other workplaces, and I just got my I
Speaker 1: just got my ass kicked. I really did.
Speaker 2: Was it competition? Was it envy? Was it just hierarchy?
Speaker 2: Was it?
Speaker 1: I think it was a combination. I was a Molotov
Speaker 1: cocktail of all of the above. As we mentioned earlier.
Speaker 1: I'm just not thick skinned, and maybe I just wasn't
Speaker 1: built for those kinds of highly competitive environments. It Yeah,
Speaker 1: it broke me.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but in a way I'm proud that it did,
Speaker 6: because I guess that means I have something left to break.
Speaker 3: I have a heart left to break. So it was
Speaker 3: a hard learning, but I think there's something that.
Speaker 1: I'm proud of in a way that there were certain
Speaker 1: things I couldn't withstand. I'd much rather keep my humanity
Speaker 1: I'm managining.
Speaker 5: Like inside that's really yeah, no, but I really appreciate
Speaker 5: you saying that, and I mean, it's so powerful to
Speaker 5: hear how you've processed it, like just what you added there,
Speaker 5: because when I saw your voice change and just when
Speaker 5: you expressing it and it and it hit me as
Speaker 5: you said it and I felt it, and then the
Speaker 5: way you reflected on it kind of helped that feeling
Speaker 5: rise really beautifully because what you said is so true
Speaker 5: that if you were broken by a frequency of envy
Speaker 5: and competition and whatever else it was, that's only proof
Speaker 5: that you were vibrating in a way that didn't want
Speaker 5: to be pulled down into that.
Speaker 2: And it's so interesting, though, how when we break to
Speaker 2: those sorts of emotions and ideas, we feel we're the
Speaker 2: weak one, Yeah, when it's completely the opposite.
Speaker 1: That was the most painful thing was I thought I
Speaker 1: beat myself up for years afterwards, really thinking like punishing myself,
Speaker 1: saying you couldn't hack it, you weren't strong enough, And yeah,
Speaker 1: what bliss and what peace? I think to understand that
Speaker 1: two have out on top would have been a greater
Speaker 1: failure I think in terms of who I actually care
Speaker 1: about being.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like if you abandoned yourself in that
Speaker 2: moment in order to align with that new way of thinking, yeah,
Speaker 2: you'd probably beat yourself up more long term and have
Speaker 2: a much more of time.
Speaker 1: Yes, I think. So, I don't know. I've just got
Speaker 1: to this place where it's just if it costs me
Speaker 1: any part of my piece, it's just too expensive. And
Speaker 1: of course, like there's opportunities that I think, wow, like
Speaker 1: that would be amazing, and I care deeply about my work.
Speaker 1: But I think it's just I think I just used
Speaker 1: to completely sacrifice myself for whatever the thing was I
Speaker 1: was trying to achieve. And that could be a grade,
Speaker 1: it could be a movie, it could be promoting. I
Speaker 1: just was obsessed with excellence and doing everything, giving my
Speaker 1: all to everything and doing it to the best of
Speaker 1: my ability. And unless you have the right people around
Speaker 1: you that can hold that kind of level of commitment,
Speaker 1: you're going to get smashed up. You're just going to
Speaker 1: get crushed. And so I think now it's just a
Speaker 1: case of me being like, Okay, I know that for
Speaker 1: me to do anything, I have to have people in
Speaker 1: the room that care about me more than whatever the
Speaker 1: product is or whatever the final product is. And if
Speaker 1: that isn't the case, I cannot be there because I'm
Speaker 1: just someone who like gives it all is how I'm built.
Speaker 1: And I think understanding that makeup of myself and not
Speaker 1: punishing myself for that, but just knowing it needs certain
Speaker 1: kinds of conditions is how I've come to hopefully not
Speaker 1: keep doing it forever and probably every day, but accepting myself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like I've spoken to so many and
Speaker 2: we were talking about this last week when we were
Speaker 2: speaking on the phone, that I've worked with so many
Speaker 2: young people musicians who've all been told like, all right,
Speaker 2: if you don't do this over the next twelve months,
Speaker 2: you're not gonna make it, yeah, or like if you
Speaker 2: don't do this right now, if you don't say yes
Speaker 2: to this song or this movie, it's like you might
Speaker 2: as well wave it goodbye. You're never going to get
Speaker 2: the Oscar or the whatever it may be, or the
Speaker 2: Grammy or whatever it is. And I can't imagine being
Speaker 2: a young person like I'm thirty seven now and it's
Speaker 2: you process ideas like that differently. Yeah, but if you're
Speaker 2: in your teens or even twenties, there's and maybe even thirties,
Speaker 2: but you process those statements with so much gravitas, especially
Speaker 2: when it's someone of influence and power saying it to you.
Speaker 2: And yeah, like being surrounded by people who really believe
Speaker 2: in you and your longevity and your art versus. But
Speaker 2: that's hard to find.
Speaker 1: It is, it's hard to find. And you know, I
Speaker 1: had a wonderful team, like I really did. I think
Speaker 1: it's just like understanding that no one at the end
Speaker 1: of the day is going to be in the room,
Speaker 1: like when you're had me doing the thing. You have
Speaker 1: to carry that moment and you have to carry that pressure. Also,
Speaker 1: making films that hours on them are so demanding that
Speaker 1: to have your own life alongside that, to have that
Speaker 1: balance is almost impossible. It's so all or nothing, it's
Speaker 1: so all encompassing, especially if you're in a lead role.
Speaker 1: You kind of go through these you know, working six
Speaker 1: days a week, fourteen to sixteen hour days, and then
Speaker 1: you're just kind of dropped off at the end of it,
Speaker 1: and maybe you'll have a two or three month gap
Speaker 1: and then there's just kind of like nothing, and so
Speaker 1: you're like riding this like incredible peak of like adrenaline
Speaker 1: and cortisol and then you just get like dropped off
Speaker 1: the edge and they're like, Okay, wait, now I have
Speaker 1: to be a functioning human again, and I have to
Speaker 1: like figure out how to be a person in the
Speaker 1: real world. And I think some of those extremes then
Speaker 1: force an actor to either decide, well, I'm going to
Speaker 1: back to back it, so I'm going to basically go
Speaker 1: from one movie to the next and that's going to
Speaker 1: be my full life. Or you have to navigate these
Speaker 1: huge impacts on your nervous system that you need a
Speaker 1: system and a support system to help you navigate. And
Speaker 1: I think it's why addiction and mental illness in my profession,
Speaker 1: and then a lot of high stress, high profile professions
Speaker 1: is so commonplace because you're trying to balance out these
Speaker 1: enormous chemical ups and downs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, talk to people about why, because I think from
Speaker 2: the outside, when someone sees a red carpet, yeah, or
Speaker 2: when someone sees an event, it looks really glamorous. Like
Speaker 2: until I ever attended anything, and you know, I always
Speaker 2: looked at it's like, oh my gosh, it's so glamorous
Speaker 2: and everyone's there and everyone must be friends and everyone
Speaker 2: must know each other because they all, you know. But
Speaker 2: but then you're not saying that, and neither is And
Speaker 2: any time I've ever been on a red carpet, everyone's
Speaker 2: anxious and everyone's nervous, and that's the real experience. And
Speaker 2: people are almost waiting to leave. Yes, and some people
Speaker 2: do the red carpet and leave immediately, But but what's
Speaker 2: going on there? Like walk us through? Like I mean,
Speaker 2: for people who may not.
Speaker 1: I think the first step is to just understand even
Speaker 1: though you're wearing an incredibly glamorous dress and you're there
Speaker 1: to do something exciting. I don't think there's anything that
Speaker 1: can make it not weird that people are screaming at
Speaker 1: the top of their lungs. Like it just everything in
Speaker 1: your body says something's wrong. Like people are screaming, something's wrong.
Speaker 1: But then you have to try to pretend as though
Speaker 1: this is all normal and you're unfazed. So you have
Speaker 1: like two things going on. One you're like navigating this
Speaker 1: like sensory overload. That's like telling you, oh my god,
Speaker 1: something is really wrong where you are you Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you're trying to navigate. Okay, something feels wrong, but I
Speaker 1: need to also simultaneously make it seem as though I
Speaker 1: am the most graceful and the most calm I've ever
Speaker 1: been in my whole life. And I need to like
Speaker 1: pose for this person. And there's fifty different cameras and
Speaker 1: I need to make sure that I look perfectly into
Speaker 1: each and every one. And I probably will have had
Speaker 1: four different notes from the stylist about how I'm supposed
Speaker 1: to stand and what I need to do for the dress,
Speaker 1: and then I've got like twenty five different talking points
Speaker 1: from the movie of like what I need to get
Speaker 1: across and also avoid saying or talking about, and so
Speaker 1: like you need to be thinking about that, and the
Speaker 1: juggles crazy, and then I think everyone is in this
Speaker 1: like kind of jumped up state, and so like trying
Speaker 1: to have a normal conversation with anyone is basically impossible
Speaker 1: because you feel like an insane person. And so these
Speaker 1: are not environments in which you like have a nice
Speaker 1: chat with someone. Really. I mean maybe if you're really
Speaker 1: lucky you've worked with someone for a long time and
Speaker 1: you've established and trust. But I think that was the
Speaker 1: other thing that was like really difficult about movies and
Speaker 1: what like I kind of laugh at well, not in
Speaker 1: a mean way, but like, you know, you always get
Speaker 1: asked when you're like promoting these big films like so
Speaker 1: do you guys hang out on set? And like do
Speaker 1: you guys hang out? And like are you all friends?
Speaker 1: And everyone's sort of like nods enthusiastically, But the truth is,
Speaker 1: no one has seen each other outside of work, like
Speaker 1: very very very rarely, mostly because the schedule is insane.
Speaker 1: Everyone's so tired that when you get any time off,
Speaker 1: you're going straight back to your hotel room to try
Speaker 1: to like claw in any piece of rest that you
Speaker 1: possibly can, and like, I don't know, like it, friendships
Speaker 1: require time and trust and presence and those things like
Speaker 1: very rarely come about. They can, and they like do occasionally,
Speaker 1: but it's more of a more of a you know,
Speaker 1: solar eclipse than an everyday situation. So yeah, but you
Speaker 1: have to pretend. I think that's the part that starts
Speaker 1: to feel icky after a while, is that you have
Speaker 1: to pretend that you're all best friends and what's so sad.
Speaker 1: And I know this isn't just the case for me,
Speaker 1: but like I think people wish they were I think
Speaker 1: we wish we did have those real connections and we
Speaker 1: did have that real support. And so having to pretend
Speaker 1: that something exists that you actually really want but don't
Speaker 1: have is like it's like that pretty grainy in the wound,
Speaker 1: you know. It's like it's pretty like tough pill to swallow,
Speaker 1: to have to act out something that you wish were
Speaker 1: real but isn't real. Yeah, And I think that's the
Speaker 1: part that starts to kind of yeah, I can speak
Speaker 1: for myself, but those are definitely the moments for have
Speaker 1: been like this feels dark, like anyone else like this
Speaker 1: feels dark.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's such a real reminder that it's still work.
Speaker 2: And it's almost like asking anyone who works at any
Speaker 2: company and saying, hey, do you hang out with your
Speaker 2: team after work every night? And the answer is probably no. Yeah,
Speaker 2: everyone's go home to their family and maybe you've got
Speaker 2: a couple of course, you've got a couple of friends
Speaker 2: at work. And it's wonderful if you have a friend
Speaker 2: at work that you work out with or see after hours,
Speaker 2: but you're not hanging out as the whole crew. It's
Speaker 2: it's very unlikely, and it is that reality check of no,
Speaker 2: but this is also just work. Yeah, and their character
Speaker 2: stories are not their personal stories, and it doesn't And
Speaker 2: that's why I wanted to go back. You mentioned their
Speaker 2: you talked about how Harry Potter had a family feel,
Speaker 2: and I wanted to ask you how did that come
Speaker 2: about in the first what was where did the auditions
Speaker 2: come from? Like, how did that become a part of
Speaker 2: your life?
Speaker 1: Yes, so I did not go to a performing arts school.
Speaker 1: I'd never done anything. I never acted professionally, but they came.
Speaker 1: They did like a basically country wide search to find Harry,
Speaker 1: Harmione and Ron and so they asked my school if
Speaker 1: they wanted to smit any students who loved drama who
Speaker 1: wanted to audition, and so I was one of I
Speaker 1: think about twelve students that was asked if I wanted
Speaker 1: to audition. I don't know, it was weird. I had
Speaker 1: this weird, weighted, fated sense of destiny pretty much from
Speaker 1: the moment that they said they mentioned the audition. I
Speaker 1: remember I brought I think maybe like seven different beanie
Speaker 1: babies with me along and like all these different like
Speaker 1: lucky talismans, and I loved the world and the book
Speaker 1: so much. My dad had been reading them to me
Speaker 1: before bed when I would spend the weekends with him,
Speaker 1: and on long car journeys, we'd often drive back and
Speaker 1: forwards to France, and that's how the time would be passed.
Speaker 1: And so I was just like, loved the world, loved Hermione.
Speaker 1: And for me, it wasn't so much about acting so
Speaker 1: much as it was that, like I just the books
Speaker 1: meant so much to me personally.
Speaker 2: Did you feel like it was destiny for you or
Speaker 2: did it feel like did you always feel like it
Speaker 2: was going to be this? I always think obviously the
Speaker 2: books were already I.
Speaker 1: Always felt like Hermione was.
Speaker 2: I knew.
Speaker 1: I was never auditioning for anything else, like I knew
Speaker 1: it was her. I don't know. I don't know how
Speaker 1: to explain it. Something felt right about it. And yeah,
Speaker 1: my poor parents, because if I hadn't have got it,
Speaker 1: I think they knew her crusher. I ended up doing
Speaker 1: nine auditions over a period of over a year and
Speaker 1: a half, which for a nine year old is a
Speaker 1: massive commitment. But I was. I loved her. I loved it.
Speaker 1: I really did.
Speaker 2: What do you wish now that you would have known
Speaker 2: before you became HERMIONI.
Speaker 1: I did a pretty good job. And I'm actually I
Speaker 1: give my mother specifically credit for this. She was like
Speaker 1: a warrior for my normalcy and for me having an
Speaker 1: ordinary life and going to school, and no one wanted that.
Speaker 1: I mean, it would have been considerably easier if I
Speaker 1: had not continued going to school. But she, Wow, like
Speaker 1: I will forever be in her debt. She somehow knew
Speaker 1: that me feeling part of the ordinary world and feeling
Speaker 1: I had a place in it and that I belonged
Speaker 1: outside of those films was going to be crucial.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's really incredible.
Speaker 1: It was because she basically didn't have anyone on her team.
Speaker 1: She was kind of on her own on that one,
Speaker 1: and she fought tooth and nail. She was like on
Speaker 1: the phone for hours saying she has to sit her exams,
Speaker 1: she has to go back, like she needs to be here,
Speaker 1: she she needs to have some parts of a normal
Speaker 1: childhood and yeah, forever in her dad.
Speaker 2: That's so special to have had that and have those Yeah,
Speaker 2: to have a parent who yeah, you can't see anything
Speaker 2: for yourself, You're yeah, No.
Speaker 1: And to be honest, I didn't really I didn't really
Speaker 1: get it if I'm gonna be I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I guess it's important, Like you know, I didn't really
Speaker 1: get it, so I think, yeah, she was amazing.
Speaker 2: When did Emma you? Emma Watson and Hermione and the
Speaker 2: characters that then followed start to get blurred and intertwined
Speaker 2: because that expectation that comes with I remember this and
Speaker 2: I share it because to give it to context to people.
Speaker 2: I was walking down the road with one of my
Speaker 2: friends who's an actor who gets recognized a hundred times
Speaker 2: for every one time I get recommend just and so
Speaker 2: for walking down like this person willet stopped a hundred
Speaker 2: times for pictures and then I'll get stopped once. And
Speaker 2: it was really beautiful because we'd spent a day together
Speaker 2: and that person had been stopped a hundred times, and
Speaker 2: then they've been stopped a couple of times. And then
Speaker 2: they said something to me. They said, Jay, you're really lucky,
Speaker 2: And I said, what do you mean? And and I
Speaker 2: thought they were going to say because I'm anomus to
Speaker 2: some degree, but they didn't. He said to me, he goes, Jay,
Speaker 2: You're really lucky, because he goes when people stop me,
Speaker 2: they stop me for who I play to be and
Speaker 2: when they stop you, they stop you for who you are.
Speaker 2: And it was really encouraging words from some of that
Speaker 2: respect a lot, and I was like, wow, like I
Speaker 2: never thought about it like that. I just I just
Speaker 2: it hadn't hit me how different it was. And because
Speaker 2: I think you just see fame or success or whatever,
Speaker 2: it is this one big bubble of stuff, especially when
Speaker 2: you're not that close to it, you don't know too
Speaker 2: much about it. And it was that conversation that made
Speaker 2: me even be even more personal with everyone that I
Speaker 2: ever spoke to, because they'd always have a personal story
Speaker 2: or And that's not to say that isn't true for
Speaker 2: music and for acting. Of course there is. I don't
Speaker 2: want to take away from no, no, And I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that as an egotistical statement. I'm saying it as like,
Speaker 2: how hard it is for an individual to go through that, Yes,
Speaker 2: and to be disassociated from themselves. Yes, because that role
Speaker 2: could be a part of you, It could be an
Speaker 2: expression of you, It was a part of your life
Speaker 2: at a certain period of time, But of course it
Speaker 2: isn't you. Yes, But does that make any sense?
Speaker 1: I remember when I gave my un speech about heaps
Speaker 1: and about feminism and women's rights, and people started stopping
Speaker 1: me because of things that I had come from me
Speaker 1: and that I had said. It felt like a very
Speaker 1: significant transition for me because for the first time I
Speaker 1: felt like I could look someone in the eye and
Speaker 1: receive and accept something that they were saying, because I
Speaker 1: felt like it actually had something to do with me,
Speaker 1: and I wasn't just kind of a like a cuss
Speaker 1: c stodian of something sacred, which I did take very
Speaker 1: seriously and I still do. But it had been a
Speaker 1: direct transmission from me. And I think that's why writing
Speaker 1: has become so important to me, is because it's a
Speaker 1: way that I can say things directly and that feels
Speaker 1: really meaningful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love the word you just use there of
Speaker 2: the difference between being a custodian and you know, direct
Speaker 2: transmission you said, And that's such an interesting way to
Speaker 2: think about it. And I think each and every one
Speaker 2: of us don't want to be known as a lawyer
Speaker 2: or an accountant or a doctor or a like that. Yes,
Speaker 2: that's a part of us, and it's a role we
Speaker 2: play in society, and it of course brings significance and
Speaker 2: value and worth and all of these wonderful things, but
Speaker 2: I think everyone wants to be something beyond that, and
Speaker 2: no one wants to be that in their home, and
Speaker 2: no one wants to be that with their friends, and
Speaker 2: no one no one wants and me included, by the way,
Speaker 2: It's like I try, and me and my one of
Speaker 2: my friends is a well known stand up comic. We
Speaker 2: always joke about how he hates to be asked to
Speaker 2: tell jokes on command. And I try with my friends
Speaker 2: to not say smart, to say thoughtful, revolatory things. Because
Speaker 2: of my friends, I just want to be Like I
Speaker 2: don't want to have to coach someone's marriage or solve
Speaker 2: their thing. I don't want to do that, Like I
Speaker 2: just want to be and and so even for someone
Speaker 2: who loves who is doing direct transmission a lot more
Speaker 2: of the time, even then there's a feeling of, well,
Speaker 2: I don't want to say anything profound in this conversation.
Speaker 1: She put this down.
Speaker 2: I need to put the one down right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think a big piece of me like
Speaker 1: understanding again, like why I needed to take him in
Speaker 1: It is that like even being the person who was
Speaker 1: promoting the work became a kind of role like Emma
Speaker 1: Watson became this like avatar, this this person that I identified with,
Speaker 1: but also kind of didn't. She'd become reproduce so many
Speaker 1: times over and kind of had become so loaded by
Speaker 1: all of this different stuff that she almost felt too
Speaker 1: heavy to carry. Like I kind of was like, I
Speaker 1: don't even know if I can, if I can be
Speaker 1: that bitch anymore. Like I like, you know, I went
Speaker 1: on a date like two years ago, and like it
Speaker 1: was the best confession ever. But I was like messaging
Speaker 1: this person they were like Emma, and he was like,
Speaker 1: can I just say something like Emma, Watson makes me anxious?
Speaker 1: And I was like, Watson makes me anxious too, on
Speaker 1: the same page, like I get it, Like I can't
Speaker 1: even be her. I don't know how to be her
Speaker 1: live up to what I look like on the cover
Speaker 1: of a magazine. I don't look like that. I can't.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't even know how to touch
Speaker 1: what that person's become. It's kind of a funny realization
Speaker 1: at some point where it's like I need to step
Speaker 1: off this thing because I just once you've I don't know.
Speaker 1: There's such a glamorization that comes hand in hand with
Speaker 1: being a public famous person, especially if you're a woman,
Speaker 1: Like I feel so envious of my male co stars
Speaker 1: who can just put on a T shirt and show
Speaker 1: up without like this ps like whole rigmarole of kind
Speaker 1: of becoming acceptable enough to be on camera and ah,
Speaker 1: like kudos to Pamela Anderson recently and just like doing
Speaker 1: the thing, because it's like the amount of courage it
Speaker 1: will have taken to do that, Like I cannot even
Speaker 1: begin to express to you, it's wild. The expectations are insane,
Speaker 1: it's impossible.
Speaker 2: So on vacation, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Just the beauty expectations are so difficult to reach and
Speaker 1: the bar gets raised all the time, so it's like
Speaker 1: you're on this constantly, Like I don't know, it's like
Speaker 1: some sort of like Survivors Island Games Show beauty nightmare
Speaker 1: where you know, I don't know, it's it's it's nuts.
Speaker 1: So I yeah, I think part of also not feeling
Speaker 1: like and Watson is just like the whole like glam
Speaker 1: squad culture of it all is it's sentense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so fascinating because there's almost like this this
Speaker 2: learning of becoming you know, becoming Emma Watson, becoming you know,
Speaker 2: being all the roles you play, and then it almost
Speaker 2: feels like what you're saying is there was a moment
Speaker 2: you wanted to step off and unlearn what that meant total.
Speaker 2: But that seems really hard, Yes, because yes, learning it
Speaker 2: was hard enough, and then to unlearn it when it's
Speaker 2: linked to your work, your finances, your work, your friendship,
Speaker 2: community connection, all of the where you live, how do
Speaker 2: you even begin to unlearn? Being Emma Watson, it's noted ball.
Speaker 1: You have to sort of unravel very carefully.
Speaker 2: And carefully, that's it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 2: Not like a wrecking ball, like you're not just I.
Speaker 1: Mean, some things had to be done like the wrecking ball, honestly,
Speaker 1: and then some parts of it were like a much slower,
Speaker 1: more gentle teasing out. But I mean, I don't know
Speaker 1: if you find this, but I imagine that a lot of
Speaker 1: your friendships are made through the podcast and made through
Speaker 1: your work, and there's kind of this like non separation
Speaker 1: between your home and your family and your relationship and
Speaker 1: the podcast. But tied into that, there's also like the
Speaker 1: very real some people will be wanting you to reference
Speaker 1: their new book or like promote something for them or whatever,
Speaker 1: and like navigating that so many of these threads are entwined.
Speaker 1: Does it ever start to feel like, wow, this is
Speaker 1: a lot people ask me all the time. Do you
Speaker 1: ever wonder why people want to hang out with you
Speaker 1: or be your friend or whatever? And does that ever
Speaker 1: get complicated for you?
Speaker 2: I think because my direct transmission is so clear that
Speaker 2: if anyone in the industry wants to connect, yeah, there's
Speaker 2: usually quite a distinct journey that they're on that mine
Speaker 2: can support or help with as a friend or in
Speaker 2: a more formal capacity, and that I deeply enjoy and
Speaker 2: I'm grateful for because people are not inviting me out
Speaker 2: to crazy parties, and I'm happy they're not. They're not. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they don't think I'm just a clipping the other day
Speaker 2: of Austin Butler saying he's he does He's never been
Speaker 2: invited to a bachelor party. I can't believe it, but
Speaker 2: that that kind of feel like, I don't get invited
Speaker 2: to crazy parties, and I'm grateful for that. I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's not really a part of my life unless it's
Speaker 2: a spiritual party and then I'm all game. But there
Speaker 2: isn't that, And so sometimes I think it's a good
Speaker 2: my direct transmission is a good protective mechanism because I
Speaker 2: don't really get asked to come to things. But then
Speaker 2: at the same time, it takes me to get to
Speaker 2: know someone deeply. Like I just traveled with a friend
Speaker 2: to Greece and we played and I don't think they
Speaker 2: were anticipating this, but we played three nights of poker
Speaker 2: from midnight to seven am and it was amazing and
Speaker 2: I loved it and I had the best time. And
Speaker 2: I don't think they expected me to do that. They
Speaker 2: expect me to get to bed early. But I was
Speaker 2: on vacation and I was like, I'm a game, yeah exactly,
Speaker 2: and I'm one. So I was like, you know, I'll
Speaker 2: take it. And I'm very competitive in that way, and
Speaker 2: I enjoy it. And so I think what it is
Speaker 2: for me is I think there's a big thing for
Speaker 2: me has been from I grew up as part of
Speaker 2: a big community in London, yeah, and the big spiritual
Speaker 2: community that I became a part of when I was young.
Speaker 2: And I think that what I've found is it's very
Speaker 2: difficult to discern for people externally and even for people
Speaker 2: in that community as to how close they were to
Speaker 2: me right, And so there are some people that assume
Speaker 2: that because we sat in a class together and there
Speaker 2: were two hundred people in the class, but now that
Speaker 2: their opinion on me or that their relationship with me
Speaker 2: is close, when in actuality, I've never had a one
Speaker 2: to one conversation with that person, and so now their
Speaker 2: opinion matters to the outside world, it matters to the media,
Speaker 2: it matters to whatever. But I actually don't know that
Speaker 2: person and they don't really know me. It's just so
Speaker 2: that we went to the same congregation in that same year,
Speaker 2: which has lots thousands of people in it, and so
Speaker 2: I struggle with that. And then I also struggle with
Speaker 2: people coming up to me and saying, oh, Jay, I've
Speaker 2: known you for twenty years and you know, like from
Speaker 2: back in the day of the Temple. But I'm like,
Speaker 2: we didn't, like, we didn't ever have a conversation. And
Speaker 2: I still have all my best friends from that community
Speaker 2: that are still my closest friends. Yeah, and they also
Speaker 2: feel the same way because they see it. And so
Speaker 2: I think I find that very difficult. True is hard
Speaker 2: to navigate because it's not that I don't have positive
Speaker 2: feelings towards people or the community or anything I do.
Speaker 2: But I struggle with people feeling they know me when
Speaker 2: they never did, right, but they've almost created a story
Speaker 2: within their mind that they really knew me well. And
Speaker 2: because it was a big community. This isn't a group
Speaker 2: of school friends or something which I'm still really close with.
Speaker 2: It's more of this expanded community which you were just
Speaker 2: visible in, right, not even audible or if that makes
Speaker 2: any sense, No.
Speaker 1: That makes perfect sense. I think, Yeah, being part of
Speaker 1: a larger community would be true here to navigate with. Yeah,
Speaker 1: with the kind of I guess like being a famous
Speaker 1: person in essences, like lots of people can project lots
Speaker 1: of things onto you, and like if they had some
Speaker 1: level of contact with you, it makes those kinds of
Speaker 1: protections a lot easier. And then you're like, oh, wow,
Speaker 1: we're in a completely different like your experience that this
Speaker 1: is so different from mine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, and I mean yours is like
Speaker 2: a million xter and you know, I can't imagine. I
Speaker 2: can't I can't imagine. I can't imagine how a hard
Speaker 2: dating is, Like you talked about in some of the
Speaker 2: reflections that you see, like this idea is just like
Speaker 2: dating is hard as a twenty or old thirty year
Speaker 2: old woman anyway. Yeah, and then to add your life
Speaker 2: to it. Yeah, talk to me. You've referenced it a
Speaker 2: couple of times in conversations you've had, Like, what does
Speaker 2: it feel like when you're having a normal conversation and
Speaker 2: someone goes, wait a minute, you're yeah, Hermione Granger, Emma Watson,
Speaker 2: you know, a list goes on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it does. It does feel like
Speaker 1: my avatar enters the room unexpectedly all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: and then I'm like navigating a completely different conversation if
Speaker 1: someone hasn't figured out that it's me yet, and that
Speaker 1: can feel really dehumanizing and sometimes quite kind of of
Speaker 1: seeing someone's like behavior like completely switch and turn and
Speaker 1: change can be kind of a jarring experience. I think
Speaker 1: what's nice is at the very least like dating for
Speaker 1: everyone is is basically a complete disaster and free for all,
Speaker 1: So like, I feel like I'm in good company in
Speaker 1: that sense. But I think it's funny. Occasionally people will
Speaker 1: apologize to me for the fact they've not seen my films,
Speaker 1: and I will be like, please don't apologize. That is
Speaker 1: bliss to me. Like music, to my ears that like,
Speaker 1: you're not going to constantly be navigating and me also
Speaker 1: navigating with you. This projection of me or this Emma
Speaker 1: Watson avatar person will not be this ghost in the room.
Speaker 1: So that's happened a few times where people have been like,
Speaker 1: I'm really sorry, please apologize, I'm so ry, I'm so
Speaker 1: incredibly relieved, and then the box later on, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: hope not. I mean, I guess, like I want people
Speaker 1: to appreciate my work, but I think knowing you don't
Speaker 1: have to navigate that extra like degree of weirdness is
Speaker 1: helpful relief.
Speaker 2: How do you help people get to know the real
Speaker 2: you at this stage in your life?
Speaker 1: You know, I wrote this play that I actually sent
Speaker 1: to you to read, but I actually read parts of
Speaker 1: it to people because I find that trying to explain
Speaker 1: sometimes how weird it is to be me, like I
Speaker 1: almost need aids, like it's not it's so difficult to
Speaker 1: convey like how weird it is and how surreal sometimes
Speaker 1: that I sometimes be like, can I just, like weed
Speaker 1: do this thing I wrote because I think it's going
Speaker 1: to shortcut you somewhere. And so that's actually been incredibly
Speaker 1: helpful and I'm I'm so glad I went and did
Speaker 1: this this Creative Writing masters and have spent more time
Speaker 1: writing about my experiences because sometimes I can't even articulate
Speaker 1: it to myself, Like how how are you supposed to
Speaker 1: explain to me? Does someone else you can't really even
Speaker 1: understand for yourself. So I think writing creative writing making
Speaker 1: art has been the best therapy I've ever done, because
Speaker 1: it's helped me get clarity and also just being able
Speaker 1: to laugh at myself and laugh at the situation. I
Speaker 1: think one on one therapy can be amazing, but like
Speaker 1: there is a kind of intensity and a seriousness to
Speaker 1: that that maybe when you're writing something down. And when
Speaker 1: I wrote the Player, I wrote it for my friends
Speaker 1: and family, and I was able to kind of be
Speaker 1: more my bring more of myself to the picture in
Speaker 1: a way, which is someone who's like this is just nuts,
Speaker 1: Like I just can't, Like I can't sometimes I just
Speaker 1: genuinely cannot believe that my life is my life, and
Speaker 1: I make the place I can put that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved so just for everyone who's you know,
Speaker 2: hearing about the referencing of this play, Emma wrote a
Speaker 2: play which helped her closest friends and family understand her
Speaker 2: experience of life. Basically, Yeah, right, is that a bad description?
Speaker 1: No, no, it's not a bad description. But like, specifically,
Speaker 1: I wrote the play about me transitioning from basically being
Speaker 1: a full time actress an activist to try to move
Speaker 1: home and like be a normal student and attend a
Speaker 1: normal university as a super famous person. And I basically
Speaker 1: kept a journal of what those experiences were like and
Speaker 1: chronicled them for my friends and family for about a
Speaker 1: year and then performed it as a one woman show
Speaker 1: at the end of the first year and handed that
Speaker 1: in as my first year piece of work. And yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah it got a distinction. It actually did not that
Speaker 1: that was the point, but it kind of wasn't the point.
Speaker 1: But I think the coolest thing was was, like I
Speaker 1: read it from my roommate, for example, he's believing me
Speaker 1: for seven years, and he was like, we alway stop
Speaker 1: sorselves as well. He's like, is this actually how you feel?
Speaker 1: Like do you actually feel this? And I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have written it if I didn't, And he
Speaker 1: was like, I had no idea that this was how
Speaker 1: you felt, And this is someone I live with and
Speaker 1: so for me, who I perceived myself to be this
Speaker 1: like massive open book, and actually I realized I was like, Wow,
Speaker 1: I think I'm doing a good job of bringing the
Speaker 1: people that I love along with me on what this
Speaker 1: feels like. And actually I'm not saying nearly enough or
Speaker 1: explaining it in a way where it makes sense. And
Speaker 1: so even my parents were just like, I couldn't believe it. Really, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2: Sure they were brought to tears by parts of it.
Speaker 2: I was so moved by it, and I really hope
Speaker 2: you do one day make it a production in some capacity,
Speaker 2: because it was so moving and so powerful, and honestly,
Speaker 2: it was what every public figure has ever tried to
Speaker 2: explain to me about their experience, yet put so succinctly,
Speaker 2: powerfully and meaningfully that anyone could relate to it. And
Speaker 2: I think anyone, meaning anyone who's ever felt misunderstood, loved
Speaker 2: for what they have and not who they are, seen
Speaker 2: for parts of themselves and not all of themselves. And
Speaker 2: I really believe it would be such a service to
Speaker 2: everyone to share it one day, in however way you
Speaker 2: decide to, because honestly, I was gripped, I was completely
Speaker 2: captivated I couldn't put it down. I feel like I'm
Speaker 2: going to read it again and again and again. It's
Speaker 2: not something that I think you read once. Not only
Speaker 2: are you a brilliant writer, but it is so true
Speaker 2: and honest and for everyone who's listening and watching. I
Speaker 2: think the from it for me is that your therapy
Speaker 2: could turn into something creative. That when you shared that
Speaker 2: with me when we were speaking on the phone, I
Speaker 2: was so in awe of that. That therapy in one
Speaker 2: to one setting or in whatever way of healing you
Speaker 2: believe in, if it turns into something you have to
Speaker 2: put together to communicate to others, that's the revelation. Like
Speaker 2: the revelation is in that process, not in the listening, telling, share, speaking.
Speaker 2: That's great and that's a part of it, but if
Speaker 2: you can go one step ahead.
Speaker 1: Truly, I feel this urgency and like desperation to communicate
Speaker 1: this specific piece, which is like make art about your experiences,
Speaker 1: like the neurosis of being a writer or anyone making anything.
Speaker 1: It's like I don't have anything valuable to say. It's
Speaker 1: all been said before. This is so self indulgent, This
Speaker 1: is so narcissistic. Who even wants to hear this, this
Speaker 1: is bad. I thought all of those thoughts, probably most
Speaker 1: days as I wrote this. But trust me, like whatever
Speaker 1: you think people know about you, or they know about
Speaker 1: your life or how you feel about it, they don't.
Speaker 1: And they need you to write poems, write songs, make pictures,
Speaker 1: write plays. And you don't need to be someone with
Speaker 1: the title of an artist to be able to do that.
Speaker 1: You really don't. And in fact, I have to write
Speaker 1: on my mirror. I haven't written on my door I
Speaker 1: am an artist because I don't think anyone feels like
Speaker 1: they deserve that title. I've been making films and writing
Speaker 1: and making arts since I was nine years old, and
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I deserve that title, and I
Speaker 1: have to work at it all the time to feel
Speaker 1: like I have anything that's worthwhile saying. I really understand
Speaker 1: the struggle. I really really do. But there is something
Speaker 1: about doing it and like having a physical thing, because
Speaker 1: I think so many of these thoughts and feelings live
Speaker 1: in our heads and it's not a great place for
Speaker 1: them to live. They need to come out somewhere, and
Speaker 1: once you can put them somewhere, then you're free being
Speaker 1: understood or feeling like you're understood. By the people around
Speaker 1: you has got to be the best feeling in the world.
Speaker 1: And I think it's what we're looking for when we
Speaker 1: do so many things, but often that's not the way
Speaker 1: to find it. And I just, god, yeah, if I
Speaker 1: honestly I want to go to every person in the
Speaker 1: street and be like, you need to write a one
Speaker 1: person show about your life and then perform it for
Speaker 1: your friends and family, or like you need to like,
Speaker 1: you know, paint the thing, write the song, like, just
Speaker 1: do it, because it's kind of one of the best
Speaker 1: most meaningful things I've done. Yeah, trying to make sense
Speaker 1: of sense of it all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I love that you did it for your family.
Speaker 2: Like that's the part that proves to me when you
Speaker 2: say the message you of make your art and you
Speaker 2: know you don't need to be a full time actor
Speaker 2: or a director or movie filmmaker. It's like you actually
Speaker 2: lived that part. And that's what I love about it
Speaker 2: the most, is that you didn't make it for a
Speaker 2: stage or a movie or a documentary or whatever.
Speaker 1: And honestly, first I wrote it for myself. I didn't
Speaker 1: think I honestly, I didn't think I had the guts
Speaker 1: to read this aloud. To anyone. I thought it was
Speaker 1: just for me and maybe like two other people and
Speaker 1: performing it for my I didn't even invite my family
Speaker 1: until like two days before, because I just didn't think
Speaker 1: I had the courage make art for people you love,
Speaker 1: like make beautiful things for people that you love, just
Speaker 1: for people that you love. Like That's one I guess,
Speaker 1: like I had the extraordinary experience of making things for
Speaker 1: like the world basically from such a young age, and
Speaker 1: I never made anything that I didn't feel like needed
Speaker 1: to be shared publicly. And I remember when I made
Speaker 1: Little Women. I mean, that's such an amazing thing about
Speaker 1: Louise Maelcot is that really she wrote these stories for
Speaker 1: her sisters. So many people's journeys and paths start because, yeah,
Speaker 1: out of love, they wrote them for just one person.
Speaker 1: There was a certain point I remember in my life
Speaker 1: where I was like, right, I'm done with university now,
Speaker 1: and now I'm going to just like focus full What
Speaker 1: I should be doing is just focusing full time on
Speaker 1: being an actress and you know, doing all of that.
Speaker 1: And I had completely missed actually that emma, the academic emma,
Speaker 1: the student emma, the person that needs to needs to
Speaker 1: constantly be learning things facilitated my ability to be a
Speaker 1: famous person and in Hollywood, and that without her I
Speaker 1: actually couldn't do it. I needed, I need to have both,
Speaker 1: and that when one gets stripped away. And like, even
Speaker 1: as I and explore this in the player as well,
Speaker 1: it's like, even as I have returned to some form
Speaker 1: of normalcy, ordinary life, whatever that looks like to me now,
Speaker 1: like I also can't kill her off completely, you know,
Speaker 1: my public person, there's parts of me that like still
Speaker 1: does need those outlets and to do those things too,
Speaker 1: And I'm figuring out what those are. But I think
Speaker 1: that's what's so complicated about being humans, is it's yes
Speaker 1: and not either or it's we need we need to
Speaker 1: be all of ourselves so that we can do the
Speaker 1: extraordinary things that we what we want to do. Maybe
Speaker 1: it's about not leaving parts of ourselves behind, like kind
Speaker 1: of finding a way to keep threading the tapestry all
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's I mean, you've you've said it
Speaker 2: so well, and I really feel that that's what it's
Speaker 2: been for me. It's I feel like it's humans were
Speaker 2: very good at being like, Okay, this chapter of my
Speaker 2: life is over. Yeah, and we do it because labeling helps.
Speaker 2: But it's like you went from being a toddler, yes,
Speaker 2: or an infant, and then you became you know, a teen,
Speaker 2: and then a young adult and then an adult and
Speaker 2: then so we have all these labels yeah, and it
Speaker 2: almost feels like we live our life that way. It's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I was a student at university. If I went to university,
Speaker 2: and now I have a job and I'm an employee
Speaker 2: or an art whatever it is, and labels are useful,
Speaker 2: so I'm not going to say they aren't. But what
Speaker 2: ends up happening is you start labeling phases of your
Speaker 2: life yes, which means now there isn't a yes, and
Speaker 2: it's an either raw. So it's like I was an actress,
Speaker 2: now I'm going to be an academic and it's like, well, no,
Speaker 2: I'm an academic and an actress and whatever else you know,
Speaker 2: And I think that's what it's been for me. It's
Speaker 2: like I know that the people that know me best
Speaker 2: will say, Jay, I love you because we can talk
Speaker 2: about spirituality. We can talk about business, and we can
Speaker 2: talk about communication, media art, and I love you because
Speaker 2: we can do all those three things in one day
Speaker 2: and I'm like, yes, I feel so seen. Yeah, if
Speaker 2: someone only said one of those things, I'd feel so limited.
Speaker 2: And what I've realized is I'm now at a place
Speaker 2: where I've given myself permission to be all of myself,
Speaker 2: even if others don't give me permission to be all
Speaker 2: of those things. Yes, because yeah, And.
Speaker 1: How amazing to get to that point where I realized
Speaker 1: for a long time I was pushing for I need
Speaker 1: everyone to understand me, and I need them to understand
Speaker 1: these decisions, and I need them to understand that I'm
Speaker 1: all of these things. And I'm like, but do you really, Emma,
Speaker 1: do you actually really need them to get it? Always
Speaker 1: enough that you get it, you see it and understand it,
Speaker 1: and you're making it possible and giving yourself permission to
Speaker 1: do that. And I think once I kind of let
Speaker 1: go of like, okay, it matters way more that I
Speaker 1: accept myself than that I spend so much energy and
Speaker 1: time trying to force other people to see these things
Speaker 1: about me. And then paradoxically, of course, once you let go,
Speaker 1: people start getting it, which is which is funny.
Speaker 2: Emma, how do you how do you see love today? God?
Speaker 1: What a great question, Oh, I see love today. Oh okay,
Speaker 1: I think I have an answer with this. How exciting
Speaker 1: I was right there for and I was like, I
Speaker 1: do am I that deep? Yeah? Okay, So I think that, oh,
Speaker 1: we don't talk about love nearly enough, or I think
Speaker 1: we need to talk about it so much more, because
Speaker 1: I had such a not a misunderstanding, but I think
Speaker 1: I had a very limited understanding of it for a
Speaker 1: long time, which was that we see in Disney movies
Speaker 1: and in Hollywood movies, this idea that like falling in love,
Speaker 1: once it sort of happened to you, it's like irreversible,
Speaker 1: you know, like step into this pottle that you can't
Speaker 1: get out of anymore because you've fallen in love. And actually,
Speaker 1: I think falling in love might be quite easy to
Speaker 1: do in some ways. That's sort of the easy bit.
Speaker 1: The hard part is finding someone who actually wants to
Speaker 1: be in a dance with you and be in some
Speaker 1: form of partnership with you, and things like can you argue? Well,
Speaker 1: can you be? Is the conflict that you have generative?
Speaker 1: And can you make someone else feel safe? Like? And
Speaker 1: when I say safe, I don't mean like as of
Speaker 1: physical danger, I mean like, can you either respond to
Speaker 1: a text message quickly enough that doesn't send the other
Speaker 1: person into like a complete free fall and or not
Speaker 1: pelt them with so many that they feel completely overwhelmed
Speaker 1: and flooded. And like that kind of like compatibility and
Speaker 1: that kind of willingness to be in this like is
Speaker 1: this okay for you? Does this feel good to you?
Speaker 1: This is how it feels for me? And like there's
Speaker 1: like that constant back and forth and that constant check
Speaker 1: in is like a game of chicken in a way
Speaker 1: of like can you find someone who's willing to be
Speaker 1: as vulnerable? Is it necessarily requires, I think, to like
Speaker 1: figure out those micro adjustments until you're sort of in
Speaker 1: some kind of dance with someone else. And that is
Speaker 1: a very different understanding that I have come to of
Speaker 1: what love is than I have. I mean, like loving
Speaker 1: someone is so much more complex than the projections that
Speaker 1: we put on someone or even like just lusting or
Speaker 1: having some small feeling for someone else. But I just
Speaker 1: think that we have such a black and white idea
Speaker 1: about what love is supposed to be. And I wish
Speaker 1: I'd understood more before I went into battle. I do,
Speaker 1: I really really do? What do you think love is?
Speaker 2: Jane, Oh wow, Oh my gosh, you're fliving this back.
Speaker 1: That's a conversation. Does any of what I've said resonate?
Speaker 2: It does?
Speaker 1: It does resonates on the right track, Jake, I need
Speaker 1: you to tell me.
Speaker 2: I think it resonates a lot. I grew up in
Speaker 2: a I grew up with a very film naive Disney
Speaker 2: version of what love was.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I love that version of love, yeh. I love the
Speaker 2: idea that love was this really romantic, really sweet, writing
Speaker 2: letters every day you kind of love like that. That's
Speaker 2: the love I dreamed of, and love I thought of
Speaker 2: as a kid at least. Yeah, And then you know,
Speaker 2: I think, I realize that you do all of that
Speaker 2: with the first person you're with in your teens, and
Speaker 2: you kind of think it's the real thing. But then
Speaker 2: they're in a mood every night for no reason, and
Speaker 2: you're just people pleasing and trying to figure out what's
Speaker 2: going on, and you think it's all about making that
Speaker 2: person happy, and so you mold and you bend, and you,
Speaker 2: you know, sabotage parts of yourself. And I realized very
Speaker 2: quickly that that wasn't love. And I think what's really
Speaker 2: interesting about love now is that marrying my wife, who
Speaker 2: I've been with now for twelve years and married for
Speaker 2: nine and so it's the longest time I've ever spent
Speaker 2: with anyone, and also the only person I've been with
Speaker 2: after I left the monastery, and so there's been a
Speaker 2: certain chapter of my life that I've been with her
Speaker 2: for and I really feel she's taught me more about
Speaker 2: love for two reasons. The first is she doesn't subscribe
Speaker 2: to any of the movie Disney versions of love.
Speaker 1: Wow, oh my god, what education did she have?
Speaker 2: Literally? And the other part is that I think she's
Speaker 2: the only person I've ever loved enough to be taught by,
Speaker 2: which is like a really interesting part of love that
Speaker 2: I think's missed. And I feel like love is the
Speaker 2: humility to feel. It's humility on both parts because the
Speaker 2: other person's not actively teaching and you're actively receiving. So
Speaker 2: it's this really strange dance between It's almost like if
Speaker 2: you're dancing, there has to be on both sides, because
Speaker 2: it's not that one person leads and the other person follows.
Speaker 2: It's the other person's kind of like should we do this?
Speaker 2: Should we try this? There's an anxiety and a humility
Speaker 2: and requesting that, and the other person gets to choose
Speaker 2: to go with it or not go and say no,
Speaker 2: we're going to go in this direction. And that's a
Speaker 2: great dance to watch. And I feel like with my wife,
Speaker 2: she's never directly taught me, but she's challenged me in
Speaker 2: ways that if other people would ever might have left.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, how beautiful.
Speaker 2: And so why am I staying? And then you go, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm staying because there's love. And so love is the
Speaker 2: ability to be taught without teaching and learning without feeling
Speaker 2: like you're being led or misled, and that for me
Speaker 2: has been a really beautiful lesson. And if I just
Speaker 2: said this to my wife out loud right now, she
Speaker 2: would just laugh because she'd just find it funny. And
Speaker 2: then she's yeah, she she also taught me how to
Speaker 2: love me for who I was and not what I had.
Speaker 2: Because I think a lot of men go through this,
Speaker 2: at least men that I'm friends with them that I've
Speaker 2: spoken to that we want people to respect us for
Speaker 2: our success, yes, and revere us for our accomplishments. It's
Speaker 2: how men have been adored since the beginning of time
Speaker 2: for going out and getting the food or going out
Speaker 2: there and winning the battle or conquering a nation, and
Speaker 2: that's what you were known for. And so my wife's
Speaker 2: been with me since before my career took off and
Speaker 2: I had any success, and I think as I gained success,
Speaker 2: I think my immaturity was to want her to love
Speaker 2: me for that more and she never did. She didn't
Speaker 2: do it, wow, and it drove me crazy. And she
Speaker 2: didn't do it in a rejecting way or in a
Speaker 2: in a it just didn't make a difference to her.
Speaker 2: And it took me a long time to wrap my
Speaker 2: head around that and realize, because you know, those are
Speaker 2: the times when you could start like other people who
Speaker 2: love you for you have achieved and what you have
Speaker 2: built and all the rest of it. And I think
Speaker 2: I just have so much respect.
Speaker 1: For her that you never gave in on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she never gave in, and she helped me love
Speaker 2: myself for who I am. And I think that's the
Speaker 2: point that I think I would have if I had
Speaker 2: met someone else, I would have valued myself for very
Speaker 2: different reasons. And knowing you're with someone who truly is
Speaker 2: with you because of who you are and your character,
Speaker 2: and that's what they honor and I think that word
Speaker 2: honor and respect probably the last thing i'd say. I
Speaker 2: think we always say like love is respect and based
Speaker 2: on respect.
Speaker 1: But I wrote a list of things that I tried
Speaker 1: to be clear with myself about what it is I
Speaker 1: was really looking for and I really want And one
Speaker 1: is someone that I can learn from. So it's really
Speaker 1: interesting that you said learning without teaching, teaching without learning
Speaker 1: and that kind of reciprocal. I really want to be
Speaker 1: with someone that I can learn learn from, and I
Speaker 1: hope that yeah, as you say, has the humility to
Speaker 1: be willing to learn from me. But the other thing is,
Speaker 1: I think it's why I was so obsessed with the
Speaker 1: musical Hamilton and why say people have But like maybe
Speaker 1: this is it's so funny that we're on the Purpose podcast,
Speaker 1: but like, are you with someone who because obviously what
Speaker 1: you have with someone is wonderful, right, like what you
Speaker 1: two share together, But if you can be in service
Speaker 1: of a vision that you both share, or at the
Speaker 1: very least, are you willing to honor and give dignity
Speaker 1: to the work of the other person and whatever their
Speaker 1: vision or mission is in this world, that to me
Speaker 1: seems far more sustainable than anything else, And so I
Speaker 1: guess my big hope or wish would be that I
Speaker 1: met someone who feels like what I want to do
Speaker 1: in the world. Yes, that I'm important, but they also
Speaker 1: feel that what I'm here to do is important to
Speaker 1: them too, and in some way inter sex with what
Speaker 1: they're here to do.
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. It's exactly what I was going
Speaker 2: to say, is it. Yeah that I think the word
Speaker 2: respect and relationships thrown around a lot, but this is
Speaker 2: the deepest form of respect. Where there's a famous quote
Speaker 2: that I don't know who said it, but there's a
Speaker 2: and I would you know, you could take the genders
Speaker 2: out of it now, but there's a famous quote that
Speaker 2: says men marry women hoping they'll never change, and women
Speaker 2: marry men hoping they can change them. And to me,
Speaker 2: wanting someone to never change or wanting to be able
Speaker 2: to change someone are both signs of disrespect, because I
Speaker 2: think the greatest respect you can have is to respect
Speaker 2: what this person values in this moment and how that evolves,
Speaker 2: and that's their purpose. They're offering their values and at
Speaker 2: no point that you're trying to change them. And I've
Speaker 2: talked about this often where my wife and I. I
Speaker 2: do this exercise with couples when I'm working with them,
Speaker 2: but I've also done it in our relationship. And I
Speaker 2: ask people to rank their top three priorities in order,
Speaker 2: and people do it privately and then they share them.
Speaker 2: And so generally one person will put themselves first, their
Speaker 2: partner second, and then the kids third, and the other
Speaker 2: person will put the kids first, the partner second, and
Speaker 2: themselves third. And the person who put themselves third is
Speaker 2: always mad at the person who put themselves first, because
Speaker 2: there's this friction of well, wait a minute, how can
Speaker 2: you not put the kids first? Or how can you
Speaker 2: not put family first? Or whatever it may be in
Speaker 2: your given situation, And the other person's like, well, if
Speaker 2: I don't put myself first, then what can I give
Speaker 2: to you all? And that kind of displays this dichotomy
Speaker 2: and this belief we have around love means complete sacrifice,
Speaker 2: and love means self sabotage to some degree, or love
Speaker 2: means putting yourself aside, and the reality is, actually, no,
Speaker 2: my goal is to make sure that you live your
Speaker 2: purpose and greatest vision of yourself, and your purpose is
Speaker 2: to help me do that. When we both do that,
Speaker 2: everything's poetry, and my wife practice that and she does
Speaker 2: it naturally, and it's hard to do that in a
Speaker 2: world that constantly reminds you both that sometimes the other
Speaker 2: person isn't where you are, or you know, the idea
Speaker 2: of why haven't you had kids yet? Or when are
Speaker 2: you going to be in the same country for longer
Speaker 2: than a month, or whatever they may be, because it
Speaker 2: doesn't fit into the norm of what relationships look like.
Speaker 2: And I was thinking about that with you as well,
Speaker 2: Like you know, I know you you talked about how
Speaker 2: getting asked the question when are you getting married?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Or why ain't you married? Yeah? Yes, And there's something
Speaker 2: every woman's hearing. Well, what's your reaction when you hear that?
Speaker 1: I'm just so happy not to be divorced yet, Like
Speaker 1: that sounds like a really negative answer, but I just
Speaker 1: like I think that we are. We're being pressured and
Speaker 1: forced into this thing that, like I believe is a
Speaker 1: kind of miracle. I might never be worthy of it.
Speaker 1: I hope it happens to me, but like I don't
Speaker 1: feel entitled to it, like it will either be part
Speaker 1: of my purpose here and my destiny or it won't.
Speaker 1: And I think the way we treat it as though, well,
Speaker 1: why haven't you, And this is something that has to
Speaker 1: happen in this certain time span and at a certain
Speaker 1: age in this kind of way. Is like the least
Speaker 1: romantic thing I can possibly think of, Like truly, like
Speaker 1: if I had tried to get married any point basically
Speaker 1: before about a year ago, it would have been carnage.
Speaker 1: I just didn't know myself well enough yet. I didn't
Speaker 1: have a clear enough idea of what my purpose, my vision, like,
Speaker 1: how I was going to be of service. I didn't
Speaker 1: know where I really felt like I needed to be.
Speaker 1: I think I have some of those answers now, so
Speaker 1: when I meet someone, I can say, Hi, I'm emma,
Speaker 1: this is what I care about, this is where the
Speaker 1: people I love the most live, this is where it's
Speaker 1: meaningful for me to be in the world. And then
Speaker 1: they can decide whether they can see that there's a
Speaker 1: way that I can serve what they're trying to do
Speaker 1: and they can serve what I'm trying to do. But
Speaker 1: before that they would have just got like a very
Speaker 1: mixed signal. I mean, there's some parts of me that
Speaker 1: have stayed utterly consistent, but there are some parts that
Speaker 1: like I was really still teasing out and figuring out.
Speaker 1: And I think it's such a violence, and it's such
Speaker 1: a cruelty on people, and especially young people, I think,
Speaker 1: to make and especially women, to make them feel like
Speaker 1: they have no worth or like they haven't succeeded yet
Speaker 1: in life because they haven't forced to its culmination something
Speaker 1: that I just don't think can or should ever be forced.
Speaker 1: It's something that like, honestly, I feel like I've had
Speaker 1: to earn, I've had to work for to be in
Speaker 1: a place where I feel like I can look someone
Speaker 1: in the eye and be able to tell them who
Speaker 1: I am and to have some idea and it will
Speaker 1: change and grow of what I want and what I'm
Speaker 1: here to do. That takes work, Like I have, like
Speaker 1: really sat with myself in a lot of discomfort and
Speaker 1: asked myself a lot of very difficult questions. To be
Speaker 1: at that point, it hasn't happened to me yet.
Speaker 2: I do think everyone's worthy of love, But I like
Speaker 2: I and I don't think that's what you're saying either.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess maybe like partnership or marriage, I guess
Speaker 1: is what we're both saying is like almost a different game,
Speaker 1: like it's it's almost a different playing field actually, like
Speaker 1: actually co joining and like properly sharing your life with
Speaker 1: someone and being in partnership with them seems like it's
Speaker 1: its own thing.
Speaker 2: It is. It takes so much work, and it takes
Speaker 2: so much adjustment and adapting more than compromising and sacrificing.
Speaker 2: There's so much flexibility, there's so much allowing. It's so
Speaker 2: different at different times, Like sometimes patience looks like being
Speaker 2: by that person's side and saying nothing, and sometimes patients
Speaker 2: means being halfway across the world and not communicating, and
Speaker 2: sometimes patients looks like talking and listening, Like you know,
Speaker 2: it's patients doesn't look like one thing over a lifespan.
Speaker 2: And there are parts of my wife that have stayed
Speaker 2: exactly the same in twelve years, and there are parts
Speaker 2: that have completely changed. And I have a choice every
Speaker 2: time that happens, to learn to love the new or not.
Speaker 2: And that's a choice I have to make and she
Speaker 2: has to make as well. And so there's so much
Speaker 2: constant choosing and cont evolving that it's very easy to
Speaker 2: just it's very easy to be like I chose them
Speaker 2: the day we got married, And people always asking me
Speaker 2: that I'm like, I don't think I even knew who
Speaker 2: my wife was married. I think about it, it was
Speaker 2: like I loved her, but I had no idea, And
Speaker 2: that's what it should feel like. I didn't think if
Speaker 2: I was here to say, like, yeah, the wedding day
Speaker 2: was one of the best days of my life, but
Speaker 2: it's not the day I loved my wife the most. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I didn't really even know what I was getting
Speaker 2: myself into.
Speaker 1: It's amazing. I was thinking recently about trust and telling
Speaker 1: the truth, and I realized the scary, crazy thing about
Speaker 1: it seems to me about intimacy is that it seems
Speaker 1: to be conditional on your ability to keep telling the
Speaker 1: truth and perhaps even revealing deeper and deeper and deeper
Speaker 1: truths at the risk that that truth might mean that
Speaker 1: that person might not continue to choose you. Yes, So,
Speaker 1: even though you've been in this relationship for twelve years,
Speaker 1: like every day, you have to choose to risk it
Speaker 1: all if you want there to be continued intimacy by
Speaker 1: continuing to tell your truth to this other person. And
Speaker 1: that seems so courageous to me, Like, in order for
Speaker 1: there to be genuine and connection and closeness you have
Speaker 1: to be willing to risk it all sometimes or like
Speaker 1: probably almost constantly, and that it seems like it takes
Speaker 1: so much courage because we don't like change. We don't
Speaker 1: want things to change. So you also want a relationship
Speaker 1: that's alive and still living and breathing and not some
Speaker 1: like dead thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so well said. And what you're saying is like
Speaker 2: that feeling of when you're not actually being truthful consistently.
Speaker 2: That's when we feel people have had big changes in
Speaker 2: their life because if you had the consistent truthfulness, the
Speaker 2: change felt more smooth and gradual, Whereas when the change
Speaker 2: came like you know, a wrecking ball, where I have
Speaker 2: this feeling and I'm just telling you it it's because
Speaker 2: I didn't tell you about all the little, the little
Speaker 2: incremental changes and sometimes you don't know it's even happening.
Speaker 2: So it's not your fault or this is not something
Speaker 2: that you can say has to be the case. But
Speaker 2: I think that's why being more truthful and more honest,
Speaker 2: more regularly and consistently allows for the change to feel
Speaker 2: more gradual. It's almost like going back to your dance analogy,
Speaker 2: like if you're about to throw someone up in the
Speaker 2: air and catch them. Yes, there has to have been
Speaker 2: a touch or a preparation before someone just grabs hold
Speaker 2: of you and throws you in the air. And it's like, well,
Speaker 2: I would have liked to warning, yes. And that's why
Speaker 2: your analogy is so good, because it's you would throw
Speaker 2: someone up in a dance at some point if you
Speaker 2: were both talented and gifted enough. But there would have
Speaker 2: been a preparation. There would have been a nod, there
Speaker 2: would have been a look, a feel, a touch or
Speaker 2: to set that up. And like one of the hardest
Speaker 2: questions you talked about asking answer it asking yourself difficult,
Speaker 2: ques and I want to ask you something about that.
Speaker 2: But one thing I've said to my wife is, if
Speaker 2: you ever fall out of love with me, please tell me,
Speaker 2: because I don't want to live a day without love.
Speaker 2: I'm really confident about the fact that I'm worthy of
Speaker 2: love and that I want to experience love in my life.
Speaker 2: If you ever fall out of me, just tell me
Speaker 2: it's okay, because I don't have the desire to stay
Speaker 2: somewhere for any other reason. And it sounds risky saying
Speaker 2: that and extreme, but to me, it's a greater risk
Speaker 2: to have spent ten extra years with someone and then
Speaker 2: they tell me I haven't really loved you for the
Speaker 2: last five ten years. And then I'm like, I've lived
Speaker 2: without love for ten years in my life and I
Speaker 2: don't want to be in that place because I've seen
Speaker 2: people go through that and not be happy. And so
Speaker 2: it does come with a humility and a openness to
Speaker 2: have very difficult conversations and not to force something that, oh,
Speaker 2: it's been going to get great for twelve years, it
Speaker 2: has to it should do, it must do, and it's like,
Speaker 2: well maybe no, Like, yes, if it does, it's great
Speaker 2: and it is right now, but why should right now
Speaker 2: be a prediction for how you feel in fifteen years
Speaker 2: with everything else that's going to change.
Speaker 1: I think if I knew I really couldn't meet the
Speaker 1: needs of someone and they couldn't meet my needs, if
Speaker 1: I really couldn't make them happy and they couldn't make
Speaker 1: me happy, like forcing them to stay in that situation,
Speaker 1: it's just really that makes love impossible, like the gates.
Speaker 1: So I totally get what you're saying. And my mum
Speaker 1: said this thing to me, which was like, you want
Speaker 1: to be with someone because you want them, not because
Speaker 1: you need them. And I think maybe another reason why
Speaker 1: I didn't get married younger is because I think maybe
Speaker 1: I would have married someone not knowing who I was,
Speaker 1: and I would have needed them, maybe not wanted them.
Speaker 1: And I think now I have a life that's whole
Speaker 1: and complete as it is, and I would be making
Speaker 1: a choice from a place of I just want you
Speaker 1: and I don't need you. But I just want you,
Speaker 1: and I don't. I don't think I was that woman
Speaker 1: five years ago.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. And there's so much, so much
Speaker 2: to be said for attracting from a place of peace,
Speaker 2: because you know what peace feels like, and so then
Speaker 2: anyone or anything that comes into your life.
Speaker 1: I'm what feeling satisfied feels like.
Speaker 2: Satisfied is probably even a better way, and that feeling
Speaker 2: of I know what it feels like to be satisfied,
Speaker 2: and so I now know whether someone makes me more
Speaker 2: satisfied or less.
Speaker 1: I know what my baseline. You don't know what your
Speaker 1: baseline happy is, then how do you You've got no
Speaker 1: idea of knowing what's going on at all.
Speaker 2: And that's not feeling of being complete or having it
Speaker 2: all figured out. It's like, I know what satisfy is
Speaker 2: a great word. It's like, I know what it feels
Speaker 2: like to be at peace with myself or satisfied with myself,
Speaker 2: and now everyone can show me, yeah, where that pendulum swings.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: One thing you said which which really resonated with me,
Speaker 2: is that you've had to ask yourself so many hard
Speaker 2: questions to do the work. And I want to ask you,
Speaker 2: what's one of the hardest questions you've ever had to
Speaker 2: ask yourself? If you could recall, well.
Speaker 1: The first one that comes to mind, and then maybe
Speaker 1: I'll dig for a deep or different one. Is like
Speaker 1: to have to admit to myself or ask myself the
Speaker 1: question of like, right now, have the career and the
Speaker 1: life that like looks like the dream, But are you
Speaker 1: really happy? Emma? Are you really healthy? Are you really happy?
Speaker 1: Like is this really what you want? And to be
Speaker 1: at that point and like realize and have to admit
Speaker 1: to myself that I wasn't and I didn't was one
Speaker 1: of the scariest things I've ever had to do, because
Speaker 1: you know, I basically had to ask myself on a
Speaker 1: daily basis, like I felt like I was crazy and
Speaker 1: walking away from something without knowing what You're walking towards
Speaker 1: was not having the answers, but leaving something that was
Speaker 1: that the world considered to be of such high value,
Speaker 1: such a high value kind of moment in my professional
Speaker 1: life and career. I think that was a real sitting
Speaker 1: with that was a real moment of reckoning of like,
Speaker 1: can you tell yourself the truth? Can you live with
Speaker 1: your truth? Can you accept the fact that for most
Speaker 1: other people your truth is pretty confusing and unpalatable. That
Speaker 1: was definitely hard moment of sitting. More recently, because I've
Speaker 1: been being my own partner asking myself, are you really
Speaker 1: living your values things that you preach? Are you actually
Speaker 1: aligned and actually looking at some spaces in my life
Speaker 1: where I was like, shit, no, not at all. I'm
Speaker 1: actually not doing what I talk about. And I need
Speaker 1: to like create some sort of urgency or a deadline
Speaker 1: for that so that I make sure that I am
Speaker 1: a persitive integrity. I purport to be someone that cares
Speaker 1: about the world and about the planet and sustainability. And
Speaker 1: you know, there are some things I was doing. Was
Speaker 1: it enough by my own standards, not by anyone else's,
Speaker 1: just by my own? Probably not? But what's nice is
Speaker 1: I actually have the time now to be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we need to do about it, get on with it,
Speaker 1: and like.
Speaker 2: But those are thank you for those. Those are great questions,
Speaker 2: really really great questions, and so hard for so many reasons,
Speaker 2: especially when you talked about like when you're stepping away
Speaker 2: from and stepping towards, did you have people in the
Speaker 2: industry or like people that you could talk to that
Speaker 2: felt the same way, Like did you have co stars
Speaker 2: or friends or wow, I.
Speaker 1: Know I don't know anyone else. I'll never say that
Speaker 1: I quit acting or be an actor. I'm still open
Speaker 1: to doing it again. But I certainly made a decision
Speaker 1: to take time to figure out to not know and
Speaker 1: to you know, I had like this whole disassembling the
Speaker 1: structure that's needed to carry the load of once and
Speaker 1: it's like there's an agent and a publicist and a
Speaker 1: manager and a personal assistant, and there's all these people
Speaker 1: and lives who are intertwined with mine. And navigating and
Speaker 1: caring for and negotiating that with people as well was
Speaker 1: like it was really tricky, and although I was just
Speaker 1: bloody terrified, Like I think there's a kind of infantilization
Speaker 1: that can happen when you work as much as I did,
Speaker 1: and a kind of lot of independence that means that
Speaker 1: you're like, oh my god, can I even do my
Speaker 1: life if I don't have this like army of people
Speaker 1: who are like helping me do the most menial and
Speaker 1: basic of things, Like can I actually like do this
Speaker 1: stuff myself? And I don't even say that in terms
Speaker 1: of like capability, but like just from the place of like,
Speaker 1: it's difficult for me to walk down the street sometimes.
Speaker 1: So if I'm going to start to take on truly
Speaker 1: the responsibility for most of my life myself, like, what's
Speaker 1: that going to be? Like? Can I really do that stuff?
Speaker 1: I think fame makes you feel like you can't do
Speaker 1: things for yourself in a way that can really disempower
Speaker 1: you and move your confidence and autonomy as a human being.
Speaker 1: That's that's really disabling and.
Speaker 2: For everyone who's wondering. Yeah, Emma called me up and
Speaker 2: I was like, should I speak in publicists? She's like, nope,
Speaker 2: my publicist. Like I was like, do I need to
Speaker 2: check on the manager? Nope, I am my manager, And
Speaker 2: like that was literally the conversation we had this podcast. Heself.
Speaker 2: There was no booker, there was no booking system, there
Speaker 2: was no, there was no reach out. It was literally
Speaker 2: Emma doing it herself, which is proof you are living
Speaker 2: your values. Thanks and you are aligned with what you're saying.
Speaker 2: I wanted to people to know that thank you.
Speaker 1: That What's so funny though, now it's like, because I
Speaker 1: do everything myself, there's like a fifty percent chance you
Speaker 1: would have not thought it was me. Or like sometimes when.
Speaker 2: I reached out to people, I had plenty of moments
Speaker 2: to take I was like, wait a minute, like very
Speaker 2: very amount of followers, I think it's not me.
Speaker 1: And so like I have a fifty to fifty rate
Speaker 1: of people actually just like not responding to me because
Speaker 1: they don't think I'd be reaching out myself.
Speaker 2: That's real. I had to do a secondary I think
Speaker 2: I rejected this morning.
Speaker 1: Definitely, am I going to turn up in some like
Speaker 1: catfridge situation?
Speaker 2: It's wild.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oddly, sometimes it takes more work me trying to
Speaker 1: do things myself than through the system.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, you did great job, but that yeah,
Speaker 2: those hard questions that you asked yourself, I mean, what
Speaker 2: was it that gave you courage to walk a path
Speaker 2: where you don't know the next three steps When you
Speaker 2: have an entire career lined up on this. You have
Speaker 2: an amazing career. Every movie you've been in has been
Speaker 2: magical and amazing. Like it's when you look at your
Speaker 2: portfolio of choices, like they're all brilliant performances, they're great
Speaker 2: films that and you only would have more of that.
Speaker 2: So it's also not like you're leaving a career that's
Speaker 2: kind of had its you know what I mean, it's
Speaker 2: at a place where no business oriented person could imagine why.
Speaker 2: And so what gives you courage when one side is
Speaker 2: so clear and one side is not clear at all?
Speaker 1: Again, I'm going to tell the honest version of this story.
Speaker 1: I'd love to tell you that it was like this
Speaker 1: incredible courage and determination I have inside of me, And
Speaker 1: yes there's part of that, not going to like completely
Speaker 1: erase my role in all of this, but I think
Speaker 1: a big part was that it was coming to a
Speaker 1: point with my health and nervous system where I was
Speaker 1: starting to hit a point of not no return. But
Speaker 1: like it's interesting, I eat well, I do yoga, I
Speaker 1: do medicine, I do all the things right, But I
Speaker 1: think I was using those as a way of mitigating
Speaker 1: how much stress I was under as opposed to actually,
Speaker 1: what those things are really for are compasses and points
Speaker 1: towards our truth, and I so was. I was using
Speaker 1: them as a way of like bolstering myself and allowing
Speaker 1: myself to continue down a part that actually was kind
Speaker 1: of wrecking me. And I think it was just like
Speaker 1: my immune system couldn't pretend anymore. I was on seven
Speaker 1: or eight packets of an antibiotic every year because my
Speaker 1: immune system was so low that I would just constantly
Speaker 1: be getting I just constantly be getting sick and a
Speaker 1: science infection and whatever else. Like my body just started
Speaker 1: being like no. I went from being someone who I
Speaker 1: would say it still handle stress and pressure well, and
Speaker 1: in the moment I could always do it, but the
Speaker 1: cost afterwards was starting to get more and more serious,
Speaker 1: to the point where it was like I'd always turned
Speaker 1: down or I actually remember I was in my early
Speaker 1: twenties when a publicist first offered me a beta blocker.
Speaker 1: I was nervous before a carpet, and it's the only
Speaker 1: other time I ever took anything. And I was fine
Speaker 1: for the two hours after I took it, and then
Speaker 1: I got back to the room and when my feelings
Speaker 1: came back to me, I was like overwrought with grief
Speaker 1: and feeling of having blocked it, and so I'd always
Speaker 1: and after that, I never allowed anyone to give me
Speaker 1: anything again, even though I was offered things multiple times,
Speaker 1: and doctors just wanted to give me things for jet
Speaker 1: lag and for sleep and for nerves, and oh, everyone
Speaker 1: takes it. This is you know, there's no shame in
Speaker 1: this or whatever. But I just I felt like in
Speaker 1: order to keep going, I was going to have to
Speaker 1: make a decision of like, are you okay with being
Speaker 1: low level unwell and medicated essentially, And I just knew
Speaker 1: that wasn't a choice for me. So in a way,
Speaker 1: I have my body to think, because my body just
Speaker 1: I didn't want to ignore my body anymore. And it
Speaker 1: didn't matter how many silent retreats I want, or how
Speaker 1: much yogurt I did, or what like what new thing
Speaker 1: I did to try and take care of myself, my
Speaker 1: body was done. And that was then, I think, when
Speaker 1: I went away and found a relationship with myself and
Speaker 1: my practice and just having trust and faith in a
Speaker 1: way that I never had before, and I started listening
Speaker 1: more carefully to like these little whispers of like, oh,
Speaker 1: like maybe this should be the thing you do, or
Speaker 1: like even coming and doing this, of like I think
Speaker 1: you should go and do this podcast just listening to
Speaker 1: myself the clues basically and listening to the universe whatever
Speaker 1: that means. But I never had that before. I never
Speaker 1: had I never knew how to listen for those things
Speaker 1: before I truly went away and had nothing for a while.
Speaker 1: So that was probably the best result of all that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it still takes so much courage,
Speaker 2: because it does even though you didn't see it that
Speaker 2: way and you may not have noticed it, it still
Speaker 2: takes so much courage to listen to your body because
Speaker 2: it is easy to keep medicating in all the ways
Speaker 2: to break it anyway. Yeah, and to push it to
Speaker 2: the edges and the limits of its ability, and because
Speaker 2: you're so addicted or intoxicated by the success or whatever.
Speaker 1: Maybe I guess the couragest part was just knowing I
Speaker 1: didn't want to numb out. That was the point at
Speaker 1: which it got too big of a cost, because I
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, if I feel like I need to be,
Speaker 1: I'm at the point where the price is too high. Now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved what you said about when they're meant
Speaker 2: to be compassed to our truth and not like this
Speaker 2: band aid pacification of And I've.
Speaker 1: Been highly, really effectively using those band aids. They all
Speaker 1: carry you far, like I had a lot of practice.
Speaker 2: I think that's how they're presented now too. It's become
Speaker 2: this and that's why when you said that, then you
Speaker 2: it's almost like I'm trying to think of it a
Speaker 2: good metaphor, but the one that's coming to my mind,
Speaker 2: it's almost like driving to the grocery store in a
Speaker 2: sports car and it's like a sports cars made for
Speaker 2: this high speed track, like that's what it's for, yep,
Speaker 2: But you're using it just to drive twenty five miles
Speaker 2: an hour, yeah, to the grocery store. And it's like, no,
Speaker 2: it's it has so much more capability and ability to
Speaker 2: take you somewhere phenomenally, but you're using it for a
Speaker 2: really simple basic task.
Speaker 1: Not gonna lie though. I remember when I did my
Speaker 1: first for pastener and sat long enough, and I went
Speaker 1: to my teacher and I was like, what have I done?
Speaker 2: Go and tell me about this?
Speaker 1: What have I done?
Speaker 2: You mean?
Speaker 1: I because in a way it was almost like I
Speaker 1: realized once you start paying attention to your truth. It's
Speaker 1: very difficult to go back. And in some way it
Speaker 1: felt like I was like, oh my god, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I like this. I don't know if I
Speaker 1: like this. I maybe I want to go back. And
Speaker 1: once you step through it, you you kind of can't
Speaker 1: go back. And I remember him looking at me calmly
Speaker 1: and saying, could you even go back now, even if
Speaker 1: you wanted to? And I was like, I guess not.
Speaker 1: I guess this is the path I've chosen to walk.
Speaker 1: And to some degree, in the same way, they're getting
Speaker 1: cast as hermione and like making my peace with the
Speaker 1: way that that changed my life were my marching orders.
Speaker 1: I think trusting that is that's that's all I can
Speaker 1: do at this point. Idly one for dear life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the mafia. Once you're in you know
Speaker 2: too much. Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 1: I'll never forget that moment. I'll never forget. Oh no,
Speaker 1: this is undoable now, isn't it. And he was like
Speaker 1: kind of yeah. I was like, oh no, it's so uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: It's so uncomfortable being asked with myself, and then I
Speaker 1: have to be honest with other people as well, this
Speaker 1: is a nightmare.
Speaker 2: Why did I do this? Why am I here? Oh god,
Speaker 2: I'm just imagining you retreat, like coming out of it
Speaker 2: and just having that reaction. Yeah, it's so funny, so good.
Speaker 2: That needs to get added to the plane.
Speaker 1: Okay, that actually, yeah, I wrote something. I wrote something
Speaker 1: about my doing the pastor for the first for the
Speaker 1: first time, because my god, that's such a it's such
Speaker 1: a roller coaster. Yeah, it's such a roller coaster. Anything
Speaker 1: you want to share about it, sure, yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: want to brought you to death. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: what was funny was like, I have this picture that
Speaker 1: I drew of day day two, and it's like green
Speaker 1: and pink and there's butterflies on it, and it literally
Speaker 1: says I think, it says this is so embarrassing. It
Speaker 1: says I am beautiful. I just felt like I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is blows. I was like riding
Speaker 1: this wave of like meditation, ecstasy, basically whatever dopamine here
Speaker 1: I was getting from that was wild. I just felt unbelievable.
Speaker 1: And then I surfed that wave straight into some kind
Speaker 1: of like brick wall of Oh my god, like all
Speaker 1: the things in life that you think are outside of
Speaker 1: you actually live inside you. And so even when you're
Speaker 1: like in this beautiful place, on this gorgeous meditation retreat
Speaker 1: with all of these wonderful, enlightened people, everything starts to
Speaker 1: drive you crazy, and even the like salt shaker and
Speaker 1: the pepper pot in front of you start to take
Speaker 1: on the shapes of your real life, and you realize
Speaker 1: that your mind just starts creating all this drama for you,
Speaker 1: even though there's nothing going on literally, And it was
Speaker 1: just it was such a wild experience to kind of
Speaker 1: sit there and be like, oh my god, I'm creating
Speaker 1: all of my own drama. This is a night it's me.
Speaker 2: It's me. I'm the problem.
Speaker 1: And I was like, I can't stay here. I can't
Speaker 1: do this. This is way too hard living with myself
Speaker 1: and my own thoughts is going to try this is unbearable.
Speaker 1: I can't do this. That was a really big learning
Speaker 1: And what I have to remember all the time is
Speaker 1: like I as a perfectionist, which again is a kind
Speaker 1: of violence on yourself. I would try to like shame
Speaker 1: and blame myself into and like kind of shake myself
Speaker 1: up and give myself these kinds of like talkings to
Speaker 1: to make myself do stuff and sometimes, to be honest
Speaker 1: with you, they work in the short term and in
Speaker 1: the long term they fail you miserably, like they just
Speaker 1: do not work. The only way that I have learned
Speaker 1: to change my patterns, to show up for myself better,
Speaker 1: to change in the ways I want to change and
Speaker 1: grow is to be loving towards myself. So getting to
Speaker 1: be in the room with that person at that moment
Speaker 1: was a massive gift.
Speaker 2: Someone that you're going to attend a class with can
Speaker 2: become such a big teacher for you when you allow
Speaker 2: it to be. And yeah, you know, someone who wasn't
Speaker 2: the leader or the guide of the group can can
Speaker 2: have such an impact on you. Speaking aout love, did
Speaker 2: you want to share the Is it the practice that
Speaker 2: you went through recently with? Is that what you? Yeah?
Speaker 1: The ring?
Speaker 2: Yeah there?
Speaker 1: Ye oh my god, that's sweet of you to remember
Speaker 1: I mentioned that. Yeah, I I guess. Having gone through
Speaker 1: this odyssey, which has been the last I guess seven years,
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, I kind of feel like I've
Speaker 1: got to a place will continue forever where I want
Speaker 1: to celebrate where I ended up after I kind of
Speaker 1: left land. It felt like and yeah, I did a
Speaker 1: ritual with or I guess, just a day of celebrating
Speaker 1: with my friends and chosen family, and they each brought
Speaker 1: me this ring, which has twenty two pedals on it,
Speaker 1: and each of them bought one. And I've just never
Speaker 1: owned anything so valuable in my life because to me,
Speaker 1: it represents the life that I've built, which was the
Speaker 1: one that I really wanted, which was one that was
Speaker 1: made up of community and my roots and faith and trust.
Speaker 1: And in some funny way, it signals to me that
Speaker 1: even though I have no outwood signs of my success
Speaker 1: save for this crazy one woman play I've written, I
Speaker 1: don't even have my degree yet, and it signals to
Speaker 1: me that for me achieved what I wanted to achieve
Speaker 1: for myself. Wow, So that's pretty cool. I love that
Speaker 1: every time I look down on my finger, I can
Speaker 1: like see all of the faces of the people who
Speaker 1: bought it for me. You're amazing at holding space. You're
Speaker 1: so kind the amount of people who probably sat in
Speaker 1: this chair and then as emotional as I have, and
Speaker 1: you don't turn away. It's amazing.
Speaker 2: It's easy with you.
Speaker 1: That's very kind.
Speaker 2: Thanks you. It's really easy because it's really heartfelt. And
Speaker 2: you've shared so much of me before today and today
Speaker 2: that I felt like you shared you created that space
Speaker 2: for me to sit with you before today and today.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: What makes a real friend? So you said you had
Speaker 2: twenty two two twenty two yeah, two friends? What defines
Speaker 2: a good friend? For you?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: My god? For me, I've never killed anyone in my life,
Speaker 1: and I have no intention of killing anyone, but like,
Speaker 1: is the person who you can call when you're like
Speaker 1: they would help you carry the dead pockets? You know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Like the person you call you like shit,
Speaker 1: I think I've done this thing and I need you
Speaker 1: to like either tell me I'm crazy or tell me
Speaker 1: I'm not crazy, or tell me the truth or help
Speaker 1: me fix it or I don't know that. I think
Speaker 1: it's like the people that God, it's the people that
Speaker 1: you just like do not have to have airs and
Speaker 1: graces with, and who you can just be like this
Speaker 1: just happened and it's such a disaster and yeah, and
Speaker 1: I don't know people. I think also who can handle
Speaker 1: your truths, your real truths and vulnerabilities like their sacred
Speaker 1: and with care. I think that's been very important for
Speaker 1: me because I think maybe part of my bravado is
Speaker 1: I'll make a joke of or I'll be brave about
Speaker 1: things I don't feel very brave about, and it takes
Speaker 1: someone who knows me quite well to go she's making
Speaker 1: a joke about this, Yeah, she's like actually dying inside
Speaker 1: and I kind of know that and like I'm going
Speaker 1: to hold her through it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think real friends are the ones when you're in
Speaker 1: a really tight corner and not just that will like
Speaker 1: show up begrudgingly, but be like, what are we dealing
Speaker 1: with today, and like maybe we'll enjoy that or see
Speaker 1: that as like an honor and a privilege. Actually, I
Speaker 1: think that's been a big learning for me, and it's
Speaker 1: an honor and a gift when someone asks you for
Speaker 1: help or when they need you. And I think I
Speaker 1: used to feel really embarrassed about needing anything from anyone
Speaker 1: or asking for help. I used to see it as
Speaker 1: like a great shame, like something I was really embarrassed
Speaker 1: to do. And now I see it as like, I guess,
Speaker 1: like knowing how I feel when someone asks me for
Speaker 1: help that I really love and how amazing it feels
Speaker 1: to be able to be there for someone else I
Speaker 1: try to remind myself that when I'm feeling like I
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly burden someone else with something, I remind myself
Speaker 1: and do you remember how good it felt that someone
Speaker 1: like asked you to show up for them and that
Speaker 1: you got to be there for them at their worst
Speaker 1: or darkest. And so I think coming to understand, like
Speaker 1: I think I also confused codependency or like I don't know.
Speaker 1: I didn't we are so interdependent as species, and and
Speaker 1: like there's no shame in needing and wanting other people.
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't understand. I didn't understand, and I do.
Speaker 2: I love that, and I love how it started as
Speaker 2: if I have a kills, which I.
Speaker 1: Haven't.
Speaker 2: So good, it's so good. So it's like I did
Speaker 2: not expect you to say that it was so good,
Speaker 2: so surprising. I love it, but no, it's so it's
Speaker 2: so true. Like when I when I left a monastery,
Speaker 2: and even though I was with my wife and we
Speaker 2: go into a relationship and we're dating, I used to
Speaker 2: always feel like I didn't I always I had this
Speaker 2: false mindset because of my immaturity and understand what being
Speaker 2: a monk was in that it was in this independent
Speaker 2: way of not needing or wanting anyone, and that we
Speaker 2: were in a relationship but it was great, but like
Speaker 2: that wasn't and I held that immature and I probably
Speaker 2: verbalized it to her too many times for too long
Speaker 2: in the beginning of our relationship and no idea where
Speaker 2: she stayed. It's uh, it took recently. It was this
Speaker 2: was so recent, This was like maybe a couple of
Speaker 2: months ago. Well, I realized that I shouldn't have said
Speaker 2: that years ago. But then a couple of months ago,
Speaker 2: my wife said to me, she goes, you're my calm,
Speaker 2: like you can't my nervous system, and I was like,
Speaker 2: you're my joy. You bring joy to every part of
Speaker 2: my life. And it was like that exchange was so
Speaker 2: needed and so powerful after having for so long feeling like,
Speaker 2: oh I have everything I need anyway, and I do.
Speaker 2: I genuinely believe that. But it's what you said, is
Speaker 2: that we're interdependent for a reason.
Speaker 1: Yes, we couldn't regulate.
Speaker 2: My wife mat had so much. It's like saying, I
Speaker 2: don't need salt added on to this meal, and like
Speaker 2: the meal is great, and it's like I don't need
Speaker 2: any more salt, and it's like, well, now if you
Speaker 2: had a little bit, so make a bit better, and
Speaker 2: it's like and we kind of live in that life
Speaker 2: of like I don't want to add anything to this,
Speaker 2: and it's it's almost a defense mechanism because we're so
Speaker 2: scared that there may not be someone to add. And
Speaker 2: I've lived there, so I that, Yeah, that resonated very strongly.
Speaker 1: I think that was one of the other gifts actually
Speaker 1: of getting to a point where because I used to
Speaker 1: be this like I'm so tough and in dependent and
Speaker 1: I can do anything person and being at the point
Speaker 1: where I was like, ah shit, I actually think I
Speaker 1: I'm like not okay and my body forcing me to
Speaker 1: ask other people for help was the biggest gift of
Speaker 1: my life because it brought me so much closer to
Speaker 1: other people and I learned that not only is it
Speaker 1: not a burden, it's genuinely, yeah, a privilege and a
Speaker 1: gift sometimes to have someone ask you that ask you
Speaker 1: that question or like be honest about the ways that
Speaker 1: they need you. And it's crazy how long it takes
Speaker 1: these things.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, You've done so much in a work and self work,
Speaker 2: and I'm wondering, what's what's the work you've been avoiding.
Speaker 2: What's the work you've been putting off?
Speaker 1: Wow? I think it's probably something around now tying it
Speaker 1: all together. I think in some ways, me being here
Speaker 1: today as me trying to do the piece I've been
Speaker 1: a avoiding maybe, which is like, Okay, you know you
Speaker 1: want to show up as a full, integrated whole self
Speaker 1: and not compartmentalize and split and fragment yourself in a
Speaker 1: way that keeps you safe. And that compartmentalization did keep
Speaker 1: me safe and felt very necessary for a long time,
Speaker 1: because I was trying to keep some walls up where
Speaker 1: I could nurture myself and learn and grow and then
Speaker 1: be ready to share those pieces. But I think it's
Speaker 1: probably figuring out how to avoid the pieces that I
Speaker 1: know aren't good for me and that are genuinely just toxic.
Speaker 2: But to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have the courage to show up now in
Speaker 1: whatever form that is and trust again, whether that's a
Speaker 1: person or it's making something, or it's kind of okay,
Speaker 1: have you learned enough that you can integrate and share
Speaker 1: now that you've done this in a work on your own?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that feels a resonate, ok. Yeah, Yeah, it's hard,
Speaker 2: it's hard. It's hard to verbalize. It's almost like it
Speaker 2: is that you've been private for so long. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: you've been working in private. An't your fascinations, your curiosities,
Speaker 2: your friends, you're inner work, And then to actually come
Speaker 2: out and talk about what that period has been like
Speaker 2: publicly is something you can keep pushing off.
Speaker 1: And and maybe the how that ties into partnership is
Speaker 1: that I've realized actually that some of the people I've
Speaker 1: been attracting on the dating front thing, they're dating some
Speaker 1: previous version of me who I'm who still exists in
Speaker 1: some ways, but who isn't actually who I am now.
Speaker 1: And I realized I was like, oh, I'm still getting
Speaker 1: sent people who like are seeing someone who was part
Speaker 1: of the picture, but not the whole picture. And it's
Speaker 1: starting to feel uncomfortable. Two not feel like I'm telling
Speaker 1: this part of the story, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: It's even hard for you to be like, well, these
Speaker 2: are the parts that are still there, and these are
Speaker 2: it's not a didactic process, No, it's not an equation
Speaker 2: where you can go, well, these are the parts that
Speaker 2: I've kept. These are the parts that are not like
Speaker 2: it doesn't work, Like, no, it.
Speaker 1: Doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like that, but
Speaker 1: I'm still getting requests that want to drag me a
Speaker 1: little bit more into a version of myself who was
Speaker 1: great and she was doing great stuff. But I think
Speaker 1: there's a part of me now that really feels like
Speaker 1: being able to speak to you one on one in
Speaker 1: this kind of setting, as opposed to what I used
Speaker 1: to do, which would be an enormous audience and there'd
Speaker 1: be like three hundred people there, and of course there's
Speaker 1: intimacy you can find in a room like that, but
Speaker 1: like the truth is, it's really difficult to find the
Speaker 1: kind of depth and the kind of connections that I
Speaker 1: know are the ones that nourish me personally, and that's
Speaker 1: different for everyone, but that just aren't allowing me to
Speaker 1: have the thing that I know is the real thing
Speaker 1: that I'm actually seeking and what I used to go
Speaker 1: into lots of other environments seeking and thinking i'd be
Speaker 1: able to get and keep and just not not being
Speaker 1: able to find.
Speaker 2: And it's something I wanted to ask you about that's
Speaker 2: difficult and challenging because it's something you spoke about earlier
Speaker 2: as to being such a big part of your life,
Speaker 2: an important part of your life. But recently there's been
Speaker 2: so many conversations and comments directly from JK. Rowling, whether
Speaker 2: it's her saying she'd never forgive you for your views,
Speaker 2: or the fact that when she was asked what ruins
Speaker 2: the movies for her, she named yourself and some of
Speaker 2: your co stars. And I imagine that's an extremely difficult
Speaker 2: thing when you've been a part of someone's world, when
Speaker 2: you've felt connected to their work, and then for it
Speaker 2: now to kind of be a four one eighty and
Speaker 2: for someone to publicly say these things that can be
Speaker 2: quite quite extremely hurtful. Actually, how do you think about that?
Speaker 1: I really don't believe that by having had that experience
Speaker 1: and holding the love and support and views that I
Speaker 1: have mean that I can't and don't treasure and the
Speaker 1: person that I that I had personal experiences with, I
Speaker 1: will never believe that one negates the other, and that
Speaker 1: my experience of that person I don't get to keep
Speaker 1: and cherish to come back to our earlier thing. Like,
Speaker 1: I just don't think these things are either or. I
Speaker 1: think it's my deepest wish that I hope people who
Speaker 1: don't agree with my opinion will love me, and I
Speaker 1: hope I can keep loving people who I don't necessarily
Speaker 1: share the same opinion with, and I think that's a
Speaker 1: very very important way for me that I need to
Speaker 1: be able to move through life. I just really, I
Speaker 1: guess I to circle back around. I really do believe
Speaker 1: in having conversations and that those are really important, and
Speaker 1: that I don't know. I guess where I've landed is
Speaker 1: it's not so much what we say or what we believe,
Speaker 1: but very often how we say it that's really important,
Speaker 1: and that's really frustrating and not what you want to
Speaker 1: hear when you're really angry and upset with someone. But
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just see this world right now
Speaker 1: where we seem to be giving permission for this kind
Speaker 1: of like throwing out of people, or that people are disposable,
Speaker 1: and I just think that's I will always think that's wrong.
Speaker 1: I always I just believe that no one is, no
Speaker 1: one's disposable, and everyone, as far as possible, whatever the
Speaker 1: conversation is, should and can be treated with at the
Speaker 1: very least dignity and respect.
Speaker 2: Thank you for challenging us, and yeah, it takes a lot.
Speaker 2: I think that's what we're all being challenged to do
Speaker 2: is try and hold two truths at once. And yes,
Speaker 2: those two truths don't have to be complimentary, but they
Speaker 2: can stand honor.
Speaker 1: I think the thing I'm most upset about is that
Speaker 1: a conversation was never made possible.
Speaker 2: You remain open for that dialogue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I always will. I believe in that. I
Speaker 1: believe in that completely. I believe in that completely. I
Speaker 1: just don't. Yeah, I just don't want to say anything
Speaker 1: that continues to weaponize a really like toxic debate and conversation,
Speaker 1: which is maybe why I don't well, it is why
Speaker 1: I don't comment or like continue to comment, not because
Speaker 1: I don't care about her or about the issue, but
Speaker 1: because I just the way that the conversation is being
Speaker 1: had it feels really painful to me. And so that's
Speaker 1: why that's why that decision.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really appreciate that mindset and deeply, deeply feel
Speaker 2: like if people were challenged to go there themselves, Like
Speaker 2: it takes a lot to think that way and feel
Speaker 2: that way. Yeah, but it's what it's what healing really
Speaker 2: requires across you know, around the world. And I can't
Speaker 2: imagine how many young people who look up to you
Speaker 2: and people who look up to you will feel the
Speaker 2: same way to recognize that that's how we engage, that's
Speaker 2: what we look for. We it's not that we're trying
Speaker 2: to make everything pretty and perfect, it's that no engage
Speaker 2: in a conversation.
Speaker 1: Yes, her kindness and words of encouragement and that steadfastness,
Speaker 1: that and also honestly, just as a young woman, for
Speaker 1: her to have written that character created that world, given
Speaker 1: me an opportunity which, to be honest, barely exists in
Speaker 1: the history of English literature. You know, how can I
Speaker 1: There's just no world in which I could ever cancel
Speaker 1: her out or cancel that out. For anything, it has
Speaker 1: to remain true. It is true. And this is where
Speaker 1: this like holding of these I just don't know what
Speaker 1: else to do other than hold these two seemingly incompatible
Speaker 1: things together at the same time and just hope maybe
Speaker 1: they will one day resolve or co join themselves, and
Speaker 1: maybe accept that they never will, but that they can
Speaker 1: both still be true. And I can love her, I
Speaker 1: can know she loved me. I could be grateful to her.
Speaker 1: I can know the things that she's said are true,
Speaker 1: and that can be this whole other thing. And my
Speaker 1: job feels like to just hold just to hold all
Speaker 1: of it. But the bigger thing is just what she's
Speaker 1: done will never be taken away from me.
Speaker 2: Thanks for saying such a powerful example. That beautiful left.
Speaker 2: Scott Fitzgerald quote that the sign of a first rate
Speaker 2: intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas at
Speaker 2: the same time and still retain the ability to function.
Speaker 2: So it goes on to say one should therefore be
Speaker 2: able to see that the world is hopeless, but still
Speaker 2: be determined to make it otherwise. And it's like, that's.
Speaker 1: That's Scott Fitzgerald said that. Wow, he ran deeper than
Speaker 1: I knew. Wow, that's incredible.
Speaker 2: It's one of my fast Wow.
Speaker 1: Wells on you for remembering that second part. Wow, he's
Speaker 1: made me like Fitzgerald. I mean, I liked him, don't like.
Speaker 2: To me. It's my It's one of my favorites. That's
Speaker 2: so good, so good.
Speaker 1: That's so good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Emma. For someone who has tried to stay out
Speaker 2: of the public eye, you've still been vocal about causes.
Speaker 2: You believe in things that you stand for, yes, and
Speaker 2: that always seems to get attention and reaction. And so
Speaker 2: when you shared online your solidarity for Palestine, the former
Speaker 2: Israeli you an ambassador. Danny Dunnan called you an anti
Speaker 2: Semite and and his tweet said ten points from Gryffindor
Speaker 2: for being an anti Semite. What goes through your mind
Speaker 2: when you see that this happened?
Speaker 1: This happened a few years ago. Now. I think what
Speaker 1: concerned me at the time was the way that that
Speaker 1: label was being used. And I think even now I
Speaker 1: see that playing out where we aren't people don't feel
Speaker 1: like they can talk about what's happening safely. This duality
Speaker 1: created where we don't seem able to care about the
Speaker 1: victims of terrorism and care about the genocide that's happening
Speaker 1: in Palestine at the same time, and both things have
Speaker 1: to be allowed to be true. You have to be
Speaker 1: allowed to care about fifty thousand civilians dying, seventeen thousand
Speaker 1: of which are children, and care deeply about the victims
Speaker 1: of this awful terrorist attack.
Speaker 2: I appreciate you sharing that. And Yeah, it seems like
Speaker 2: that belief system you have in yes and in this
Speaker 2: and it kind of runs through so many yeah areas
Speaker 2: of your life, Yeah, personal and beyond.
Speaker 1: Yes. I think that's I think that's true. I think
Speaker 1: that's true.
Speaker 2: I hope that you've felt you've been able to share
Speaker 2: the parts of yourself and the version of yourself that
Speaker 2: you wanted to and intended to. I hope.
Speaker 1: So I feel very hot, and I feel very hot,
Speaker 1: and I feel a little bit like is this room
Speaker 1: even real? Like are we Is this like a god
Speaker 1: our play? Well, like in some sort of existential room
Speaker 1: that doesn't exist. I feel a little bit like that.
Speaker 1: But as long as this was real and these are
Speaker 1: these falls are actually here, then yes, I do feel
Speaker 1: that way, and I or like I've done everything I
Speaker 1: can in a context that's still I can still see
Speaker 1: cameras and lights, and I know there's a person behind me.
Speaker 1: But I feel, to the extent to which I can
Speaker 1: humanly do, that I've shown up for myself and for
Speaker 1: you in a way, and the invitation that this podcast
Speaker 1: is and the work that you do in the world,
Speaker 1: I've answered that invitation. So I feel I feel good
Speaker 1: about that, and I've.
Speaker 2: Got I know it's a bit hot, but I've got
Speaker 2: a couple of questions. Episode. Yes, these are your final five.
Speaker 2: They have to be answering one word to one sentence maximum.
Speaker 2: But okay, I will probably ignore that rule, as I
Speaker 2: always do amazing. So question number one, okay, is we
Speaker 2: ask these to everyone who's ever been on the show,
Speaker 2: what is the best advice you've ever heard or received.
Speaker 1: I'm going to cheat slightly if you'll allow it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I read Emergen Strategy by Adrian Marie Brown, was given
Speaker 1: to me as a gift by my friend A Marie
Speaker 1: for my thirtieth birthday. And I think that being a good,
Speaker 1: pious Protestant English girl, I really believed that if I
Speaker 1: worked hard enough, and if I was kind of saintly enough,
Speaker 1: that someone would see my good deeds and all of
Speaker 1: my hard work and like give me the sticker, you know,
Speaker 1: give me their like give me the star, and so
Speaker 1: so I kind of martyrdom was part of my sort
Speaker 1: of I understood was important in my and I think
Speaker 1: reading her book and reading about pleasure activism, which is
Speaker 1: sort of the idea that, like anything that you need
Speaker 1: to that you want to sustain, EG. Justice, EG. You
Speaker 1: need it to be easy and you need it to
Speaker 1: be pleasurable in a way, because that's what's going to
Speaker 1: mean that you'll be able to do it. For a
Speaker 1: long time. Part of my burnout was that I wasn't
Speaker 1: prioritizing pleasure and joy as kind of like underpinning for
Speaker 1: even some of the harder, more somber, cerebral things that
Speaker 1: I was doing. And I think that changed my life.
Speaker 1: And I think we also have a model, particularly within
Speaker 1: activism and and lots of spaces that like this kind
Speaker 1: of sole individual, charismatic leader. And I like you, you know,
Speaker 1: my hero is always Martin, Luther King and Gandhi, and
Speaker 1: you just saw this sort of solitary person that was
Speaker 1: doing that. And I think if I could go back
Speaker 1: and do anything differently, it would be that when I
Speaker 1: embarked on some of the public activism that I did,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't go in the way I did. I would
Speaker 1: go in with what I have now, which is not
Speaker 1: just like an activist community, Like I have friends who
Speaker 1: can give me feedback and who I can talk to
Speaker 1: and who I feel that I'm not doing the work
Speaker 1: alone solo. However heroic that might look. Yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: heroicism and martyrdom the way the way that it was looked,
Speaker 1: maybe I just don't believe that's how we'll get the
Speaker 1: job done anymore. I think anything good will get done.
Speaker 1: So I think that book and I think that idea
Speaker 1: that revolutionized my approach.
Speaker 2: I love that. Yes, it's beautiful. I want to read
Speaker 2: that book now.
Speaker 1: Around the podcast.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. Question number two, what is the worst advice
Speaker 2: you've ever heard or received? Oh? So much?
Speaker 1: How long have you got? God? Mostly just like I
Speaker 1: think a lot of stuff around toughen up, bottle it up,
Speaker 1: deal with that later, you know, just like subtle versions
Speaker 1: of like well, maybe tell the truth, but just not
Speaker 1: all of it, Just like maybe just like tell like
Speaker 1: a little bit of it, but not like the whole thing,
Speaker 1: you know, because like the truth is. The problem with
Speaker 1: like telling three quarters of the truth is that then
Speaker 1: you're sort of in this like constant pealing and unpeeling
Speaker 1: of yourself where you sort of like you're sort of
Speaker 1: trying to do it, but you're not quite doing it.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I think a lot of advice
Speaker 1: around that. Also, anyone that tells you not to do
Speaker 1: what you love terrible advice. Doing what you love will
Speaker 1: lead you where you need to go, even if you
Speaker 1: can't see it at the time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, terrible terrible beauty tips advice I've given a wrap,
Speaker 4: like I don't know, just like, oh God, all again,
Speaker 4: Like back to our previous conversation, all the ridiculous things
Speaker 4: that you are encouraged to try and do as a.
Speaker 1: Woman, like fake tan, and I mean it's hilarious. I
Speaker 1: actually right now it might be like well covered up,
Speaker 1: but I accidentally have a bottle of fake tan in
Speaker 1: my bathroom and in my jet lag state. Last night,
Speaker 1: I thought I was putting moisturizer on, but now I
Speaker 1: have like these like horrific fake tan mark on my
Speaker 1: legs and feet. I guess I'm just thinking about just like,
Speaker 1: oh my god. And recently I was like, okay, I
Speaker 1: want to get my teeth whitened, and I looked like
Speaker 1: Ross from Friends when he'd had that awful fake tanning
Speaker 1: accident because they were just you too white. And then
Speaker 1: I had just spent go back for two other visits
Speaker 1: to get the dentist to put my teeth back to
Speaker 1: my normal teeth. So I guess I was just laughing
Speaker 1: thinking about like worst advice is just like don't ever
Speaker 1: listen to beauty technicians or anyone advising you to do
Speaker 1: anything weird to your body, face appearance. Just just don't
Speaker 1: don't listen, don't don't take the bait.
Speaker 2: Just don't do it so good. Question number three, how
Speaker 2: are you? How are you now going to choose work
Speaker 2: projects or activism differently?
Speaker 1: Does the person that's asking me to do something with them?
Speaker 1: Can they confidently look at me and say that they
Speaker 1: care about me far more than like what we're producing,
Speaker 1: and and do I care about them that way. One
Speaker 1: of my favorite people I worked with Steve Tebowski. I
Speaker 1: remember him leaving what was a very productive rehearse or
Speaker 1: script meeting with Logan lermon Azramilla and I and he
Speaker 1: was like, I need to go and be with my
Speaker 1: wife now, and we were like, I don't think I've
Speaker 1: ever heard I mean, at that point, I certainly hadn't
Speaker 1: ever heard a director in my career say they needed
Speaker 1: to leave for a personal reason or for a personal relationship.
Speaker 1: But I worked far harder for Steve than I worked
Speaker 1: for any other director, because I think I was able
Speaker 1: to give a far more vulnerable performance in that film,
Speaker 1: because I felt that he really cared about me beyond
Speaker 1: the product of the film. And I want to work
Speaker 1: with people like that who for whom the process is
Speaker 1: as important as the outcome, and the people that are
Speaker 1: part of it are more important than whatever the outcome is.
Speaker 1: I think this is a really difficult thing that I
Speaker 1: see everywhere in the world right now, is that we
Speaker 1: treat objects and things like their sacred and we don't
Speaker 1: treat people like they're the sacred thing. And that's which, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it causes a lot of pain.
Speaker 2: And there's something that you told me when we were
Speaker 2: speaking on the phone, was that you've been working with
Speaker 2: the young people on helping them with some of the
Speaker 2: challenges that you've faced in your own career, in your
Speaker 2: own life. Yeah, And I remember being so attached by that,
Speaker 2: and I wanted to learn more and for you to
Speaker 2: share it because I, yeah, I just think it's really special.
Speaker 2: And I was sharing it with's on my team before
Speaker 2: you arrived, and everyone was quite drawn to it.
Speaker 1: So as a young person, and you know, as I
Speaker 1: basically shared, over however long it's been that we've been speaking,
Speaker 1: I just really needed to be having more conversations with
Speaker 1: people my own age and people that were older than me.
Speaker 1: I feel like I tried to navigate so many problems
Speaker 1: on my own and I just didn't know who to
Speaker 1: really to and I was speaking to such a narrow
Speaker 1: group of people about what I was trying to navigate,
Speaker 1: and I just I think that working with young people
Speaker 1: and giving them each other and also the space, the reason,
Speaker 1: the excuses to talk about the things that we don't
Speaker 1: talk about or create spaces for, has been the most gratifying,
Speaker 1: the most purposeful and of service I felt in a
Speaker 1: long time, because it turns out pretty often that a
Speaker 1: lot of the things that we're struggling with, other people
Speaker 1: are struggling with as well, And so in a way,
Speaker 1: going back around and trying to put out into the
Speaker 1: world a lot of the things that I knew I
Speaker 1: needed as a young person and didn't get it's been
Speaker 1: the most the best, most gratifying thing. And I feel
Speaker 1: really lucky to be in a position and in a
Speaker 1: place where I can say and no, like like I've
Speaker 1: kind of done this treacherous journey, and I think that
Speaker 1: I think I might have some ideas about what might
Speaker 1: be needed for someone to come out the other side
Speaker 1: of that safely. So it feels good to be of use.
Speaker 2: Five A question We asked this to every guest who's
Speaker 2: ever been on the show. If you could create one
Speaker 2: law that everyone in the world had to follow, what
Speaker 2: would it be?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: Wow, one law. Okay, there's a couple of contenders. I
Speaker 1: want to run you the wrong one is going to
Speaker 1: be okay, great, perfect one would be around the importance
Speaker 1: of telling the truth, or like speaking your truth, or
Speaker 1: just because I feel like so much, so much chaos
Speaker 1: is caused by people not being sure whether or not
Speaker 1: they should or it's to go idea too or I
Speaker 1: think that would be a pretty amazing one. Another contender,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the obvious one is to treat other
Speaker 1: people as you would like to be treated. I would
Speaker 1: obviously solve a lot of problems as well.
Speaker 2: I like that one.
Speaker 1: You give the last one?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the first one? Yeah?
Speaker 1: The truth? Yeah, I guess it took me a long
Speaker 1: time and probably probably through doing my yoga teacher training.
Speaker 1: Is speaking truth with kindness is one of the first
Speaker 1: Nyama's right, very disappointed. I can't remember what the word
Speaker 1: is in not sad maybe yeah, speaking the truth with
Speaker 1: kind like speaking the truth with kindness, that's an amazing
Speaker 1: There's an amazing quote, which actually is it was given
Speaker 1: to be recently by a friend, which is like the
Speaker 1: truth the truth without kindness is brutality, and kindness without
Speaker 1: truth is manipulation. A truth without kindness is brutality, and
Speaker 1: kindness without truth is manipulation. And so when I say, like,
Speaker 1: tell your truth, I don't mean going around like just
Speaker 1: being awful to everyone. I mean like telling the microscopic
Speaker 1: truth and like having those being willing to have a
Speaker 1: tolerance for those conversations. One of my favorite metaphors I
Speaker 1: actually wrote about this recently for being in a relationship
Speaker 1: with anyone is like you're in it's in a way,
Speaker 1: it's it's a dance, it's a fight, Like I think
Speaker 1: about boxing in the sense of like who is going
Speaker 1: to go down to the mat with you and like
Speaker 1: not tap out? Because being honest about what's really going
Speaker 1: on is uncomfortable and it's risky. As we talked about earlier,
Speaker 1: you risk every time you tell the truth of maybe
Speaker 1: losing someone that you love because you don't know how
Speaker 1: they can respond to whatever your truth is. But I
Speaker 1: think to live that way creates the intimacy and connection
Speaker 1: that I think we long for, and also like sets
Speaker 1: people free in a way you and them. Truth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: truth with kindness, I think that's I think that's going
Speaker 1: to have to be my choice. Yeah, by factor of deduction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the bugle Ghita gives four principles for truth with kindness.
Speaker 2: The first is what you speak should be truthful.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: The second is it should be beneficial to all Oh.
Speaker 2: The third is it shouldn't agitate the minds of others.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And the fourth is it should be aligned with eternal
Speaker 2: wisdom and timeless wisdom.
Speaker 1: That's beautiful and perfect, because yeah, I think there's truth
Speaker 1: which are if they're not beneficial, that do just agitate.
Speaker 2: I think that's and it's not about not saying it.
Speaker 2: It's the idea that you've thought so much about how
Speaker 2: you say it. Yes, it's not that you've sanitized it,
Speaker 2: because that's the modern day version. The Geeta is not
Speaker 2: telling you to sanitize or be silenced, right, it's telling
Speaker 2: you to filter your thought to make sure that the
Speaker 2: way you say it is digestible yes for everyone who's
Speaker 2: going to hear it, and therefore it actually transformative power.
Speaker 2: It's not that it's not provocative or that it doesn't.
Speaker 2: It's just that you're not saying it in a way
Speaker 2: to trigger or get a reaction. You're saying in a
Speaker 2: way that hits someone like an arrow of truth. Wow,
Speaker 2: it goes I have to change. Wow, because that person
Speaker 2: has been so mindful of how they spoke.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's incredible as everything I've just been
Speaker 1: trying to say about. Yeah, if we got if everyone
Speaker 1: was mindful enough about how they spoke their truth, that
Speaker 1: it could just go straight to the heart.
Speaker 2: Oh, rather than hit the ego.
Speaker 1: Along the way.
Speaker 2: That's why we can't talk, because everything we say triggers
Speaker 2: someone's mind or their ego, and then everything we say
Speaker 2: does it back. And so now we're having a mind
Speaker 2: and ego debate, which isn't the one that goes all
Speaker 2: the way to tap you know, in your.
Speaker 1: We're so focused on defending whatever the thing is that
Speaker 1: we feel that we need to defend that we just
Speaker 1: can't heart. No, you can't hit the heart. So good, so.
Speaker 2: Good, Emma, thank you for thanks. The longest recorded conversation
Speaker 2: on purpose history. We have to change the cards, the
Speaker 2: cameras we had to like and we haven't paused, just
Speaker 2: to everyone knows, and Emma have not moved. So we
Speaker 2: didn't take a break. There was no bathroom break. No,
Speaker 2: there was no break of whatever kind of sat. There
Speaker 2: was no coffee break. We have sat in these seats
Speaker 2: for the entire duration that you watched the show or
Speaker 2: listen to it. And to Emma, you have the you
Speaker 2: know to your competitive and winning spirit, you have the
Speaker 2: award for longest ever podcast record.
Speaker 1: I don't know whether to be mortified or like seriously embarrassed,
Speaker 1: or or like feel like this is some kind of
Speaker 1: victory of some kind. I guess you sat here for
Speaker 1: like and not moved for more than three hours.
Speaker 2: Surely it's amazing.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Well, thank you for thank you so much.
Speaker 1: That's been such an amazing conversation.
Speaker 7: If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with
Speaker 7: doctor Gable Matte on understanding your trauma and how to
Speaker 7: heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.
Speaker 1: Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a
Speaker 1: tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it.
Speaker 1: It goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable.