WEBVTT - Radio Better Offline: Paris Martineau, Jeff Jarvis 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:03.240 Also media. 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:07.640 Change is coming. Now it's my time to record radio 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:11.080 better offline right here in the beautiful iHeartRadio studios on 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:25.840 fifty fifth Street, and my god, we're back from CS. 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.920 You couldn't stop me. I got off. I did thirteen 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:31.240 and a half bloody hours on the radio on the 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:33.279 podcast thing. I'm just don't know why I keep calling 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:35.440 it radio, and then got on the flight, moved to 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:37.800 New York. It was nothing, wore off a ducks back 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:39.879 and now it's Tuesday and we're already recording again. You'll 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:41.680 never get rid of me. And today I have two 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.479 amazing guests. I have Paris Martineau, reporter at the Information 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.760 and the Mighty Jeff Jarvis, author of the Gutenberg Parenthesis 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:54.120 and journalisman professor over at Stonybrook University. Mister Jarvis is 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:56.680 currently he is fielding a phone call, so I'll go 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:57.960 to Paris. Hey doing Paris. 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.120 I'm doing great. I'm astounded by energy levels given the 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.040 amount of podcasting and radio you've done the last week. 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.240 I am. I am fired up. I love doing this. 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:08.800 I think this is what I was meant to do. 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:10.480 How are your feet after cees? 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:13.880 Fantastic? I got inserts from my I like came to 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:16.880 this show fully prepared. No one realizes how much like 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:20.319 the amount of like Google docs, I had of things prepared, 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.360 like the suitcases packed like two weeks in advance, and 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:25.240 then I got to New York and I'd forgotten things 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.319 like gym shorts and some shoes. And basically I prepared 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:30.280 my life for one thing, not both things. 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.839 And it's podcasting, podcasting and blogging and nothing else. 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:38.720 Sleep slave to the content. Now, mister Jarvis, how have 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:39.119 you been? 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:40.880 Oh? Good, good, it's cold here. 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:41.520 It is good. 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:43.120 Do you have any regret coming here right now? 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:45.839 Absolutely not. Okay, I'd rather take this real last weather 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.680 than the nonsense I get back in England. Oh it's 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:51.360 kind of cold, but I usually see you two on 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.000 this week in Tech, so it's good to have you 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:53.720 here in person. 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:57.840 Yes, it's lovely to be irl with you. Some might 0:01:57.880 --> 0:01:59.360 say it's better offline. 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:04.480 It's better offline, but it is very online. So all right, Paris, 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:06.280 you had a story come out of the weekend. I 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:07.560 did tell us about it. 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:11.920 So it is a story about this website called Sniffy's. 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:12.960 Have you guys ever heard of it? 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:15.079 Right there, I want to stop and I don't want 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:15.720 to know anything, Moore. 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:19.000 I think, well, it's actually where I'm that's probably a 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:22.640 fair station. It is the up and coming, I guess, 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:28.000 competitor to Grinder. It's a website for men seeking men. 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:31.240 But it is specifically unlike you know, kind of your 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.160 dating apps of your it's not really about dating, it's. 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:35.880 About it's actual hook up. 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:40.000 It's a hookup app, just for field. It is an 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:42.600 actual app, and it's supposed to be kind of about 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.080 translating the gay cruising scene into online. 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:48.360 Potentially, right idea? Why not? 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.440 Yeah, people seem to really love it. It started in 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:53.639 some kind of infancy form in twenty sixteen, but in 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:55.760 the last couple of years has really taken off among 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.200 like gays in big cities and cities honestly big and small. 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:01.120 However, so nothing went wrong. 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:03.200 Nothing went wrong, that's the end of the story. I 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:06.560 just like writing about when companies do good. So in 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.680 this case, part of the thing that made Sniffy's so 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.000 attractive to its users is it's kind of a no 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.960 holds barred approach to hook up platforms. You don't even 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.040 have to make an account to sign in. You can 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.320 just type in Sniffy's dot com say yeah, I'm over eighteen, 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:24.080 and then get to like navigating a map ful of 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.919 dick picks and butt picks and messaging people and meeting up. Okay, 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:31.440 that is a problem because it seems like the site 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:33.680 has a bit of a child user issue. And when 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:35.520 you have a child user issue, when you're a dating 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:38.840 and sex platform, you also have a child sexual abuse platform. 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.480 So me and my colleague Marie Weinberg identified over the 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.440 last kind of a year or so more than a 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:50.800 dozen cases where adult men had been charged for sex 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:52.080 crimes involving a minor. 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.200 They meant all facilitated directly. 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.640 Yeah, and that's a lot, it seems for a relatively 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:00.800 small platform. It's about decide. 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.400 Still around afterwards? Is the thing that shocks me. 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:08.080 Well, I mean part of it is because the question 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:10.600 of legal liability in these cases is a bit tricky. 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.520 You have companies like there's long been an issue of 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.760 kids getting onto adult dating apps and meeting adults, but 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:22.440 up until recently, every legal challenge that a company that 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.600 a parent or child that has grown up have tried 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:27.720 to kind of throw against these companies saying, hey, you're 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:30.839 actually not doing your job when it comes to policing 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.120 underage do there's every legal challenge has been swept away 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:34.880 by the company saying ah Section two. 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.600 Thirty, even legal challenges aside. Would they not want to 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:41.039 stop the children getting on the sex app? Well, it's 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:45.680 hard sensibly, Okay? Did they try? Not? 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.560 Really? Because all they wanted They don't want to have 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.000 to try harder, it seems because right. 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:53.400 Now the standard thing they don't want to try harder 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:55.440 on is stopping adults having sex with children. 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:00.440 Yes, because that would require taking on some responsible ability. 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:03.520 And right now, what all they all these companies do 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:05.520 is they just ask you for your birthday and assume 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:07.880 that you didn't lie, because if they were going to 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.240 do anything more stringent than that, that could open them 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:11.120 up to liability. 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:16.560 Explain something to me. So back Page and Craigslist took 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:20.160 down their their sex sections. 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.200 And also just for the for the listeners, Backpage, can 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:23.080 you just run us through that. 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:27.360 Backpage was a place where you could hook up. It 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:31.039 was probably more of a singles into sex thing, right 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:35.040 and Craigslist was pretty much singles but in within that 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.320 people would find each other for that purpose. 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:38.520 And then back Page was shut down. 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:41.080 But the back Page shut down and Craigslist voluntarily got 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:43.360 out of it because the liability was high, right, that 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:45.440 was so they were shut down because it was sex 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:52.960 trafficking or between that and what Snuffy. 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.919 I believe part of the difference is when it comes 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.840 to Backpage and Craigslist seeking connecttions, part of what they 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:04.960 were originally shut down for involved fast assessed it involved 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:11.080 specifically like sexual exploitation and sex traffic. FOSTA and SESTA 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.240 were a package of bills that kind of went through 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.560 some amounts of years ago that ended up regulating and 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:22.640 making it making it so that these companies could not 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.120 use the Section two thirty defense as a way to 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:27.560 get around claims. 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.240 They were made responsible for us to generated content. Yes, right, 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:32.680 got it. 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:37.320 Yeah, And so in Sniffy's case, it's a bit different. Well, 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:39.960 in some ways it's not a lot different, because part 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:43.080 of the issue of what we found of those a 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.520 dozen cases, i'd say like over a third of them 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:49.720 did involve money being exchanged for sex with minors. However, 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:51.160 part of it comes. 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.000 To the fact love of the game, I guess. 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:56.520 I guess part of it is that up until fairly recently, 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:01.560 dating apps hadn't really badly claims like this against them. 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:05.640 Whenever they had, they'd been basically laughed at of corpse, saying, Oh, 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.240 of course, Grinder is not responsible for connecting your fourteen 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:11.960 year old to a bunch of thirty year olds. It's 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.840 a tech platform, it's user generated content. However, due to 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:19.240 kind of shifting tides in the way that judges are 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:24.160 viewing Internet companies, like defense says that's starting to change 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.120 right now. There is a lawsuit that is going to 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:30.560 be heard by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals involving 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.480 a case called Dovee Grinder where a fifteen year old 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.080 basically got on Grinder ended up being connected with four 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.600 men who raped him. And part of what the attorney 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:44.600 carry Goldberg is claiming in this appeal or arguing is 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:47.760 that Grinder shouldn't be able to hide behind Section two 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:49.800 thirty to say, hey, it's not our fault that we 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:54.960 didn't age verify, that Grinder should be held liable for 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:59.640 its faulty age verification policies under kind of product liability law, 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.440 saying that this is a defectively designed product. And that's 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.720 a specific argument the Ninth Circuit Court has been like 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:10.120 amenable to when it comes to other tech companies like Snapchat, 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:10.760 for instance. 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:12.680 So what happened in the rest of the story. 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:14.760 In the rest of the story, basically we identified all 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:18.080 these different cases. We talked to Sniffy's. They said that 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:21.920 they are working on an ID based age verification solution, 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.520 but in reality, the only way that that's currently in 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:27.720 practice is just in the dozen or so states that 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.000 currently have pornography restrictions to where like part of the 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:33.240 thing is if you open up Sniffe's, it's like a 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.600 map and all the profile photos are like photos of penises. 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.800 So if you are in one of those states with yeah, 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:45.199 you're in one of those states, recognize yeah, I mean 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:48.520 you'll we'll see exactly where they are. If you are 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:50.959 in one of those states. When you open it up now, 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:53.000 you'll see a blurred image and if you want to 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.800 see the penis photos, you have to enter in your ID. However, 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:58.680 the company says that there may be going to expand 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:00.400 this in some way it hasn't happened yet. 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:02.880 That would potentially open up legal liability. 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.920 Then yeah, and that's but part of the thing is 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:06.559 users also don't want to do that. 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:08.160 So I mean that was kind of what I was 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:09.320 thinking that would kind of kill it. 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.520 Yeah, or a platform like that is never going to 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:15.560 be successful if it has that sort of barrier to 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:17.960 entry and certiplications are huge. 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:22.440 Yeah, you're handing over your identification to a company called Sniffies. Yeah, 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:24.760 and I meant I wouldn't feel terribly secure in that. 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:27.640 I mean I would, of course, but that's just me. 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:30.800 But no, you also, you're right though, it's like these 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.400 I imagine part of the thing here, other than the 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:36.559 thing you're doing on there, is that it is kind 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:39.640 of anonymous. Yes, that is that's the whole point, completely hidden, 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:41.760 the thing where you can go off and touch all 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:45.080 and sundry the problem being all in sundry there. What 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.679 the legal ramifications though, if like the what was it 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:49.720 do versus Grinder? 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:51.959 Yeah, I mean, so the thing is if that case, 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:54.400 when it's appealed nines to the court, if they rule 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:56.120 in a similar way that they have in the past 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:58.960 and say, hey, when it comes to product liability cases 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:02.680 like this, tech companies don't have a defense, that could 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:04.439 have huge ramifications for every. 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:06.960 Company in the dating app, not just for dating even I. 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:10.160 Mean, it could yeah, be way bigger than dating. But 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.360 I mean the immediate impacts, according to the attorneys I 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:15.200 spoke to, would be certainly on the dating app scene, 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:16.360 which is huge because. 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:17.439 We'll all change with those things. 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.000 I mean probably what would change is they'd have to 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:25.160 find a way to determine user age beyond just asking 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.679 you for your to enter in your birthday, So it 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:30.000 could be things like some of the other dating app 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:32.600 companies out there already have stuff in place. For instance, 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:38.640 I believe Bumble and one other maybe Tender, scan user 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.160 profile photos when they're uploaded to see like, does this 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:43.679 person look like clearly a child and if so, they 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:45.640 might ask you to upload your idea to verify that 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:46.400 you're over eighteen. 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:48.199 I feel like there could also be a big problem. 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.120 So I've been on the dating apps for a while, 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:52.960 not that I'm not single, it just nobody likes me. 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:55.400 And I remember when I was on them it was 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.240 like months and months. Actually, no like last year, like 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:00.439 early last year. It's been a while. There was a 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.520 huge fake profile problem, and I wonder if there's not 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.920 a secondary problem here where the dominance of these fake 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:09.720 profiles on there might get pushed away when they have 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.280 to stop verifying every us because that feels like the 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:13.439 on the s. 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:17.000 Yeah, but I mean then part of the problem, if 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:18.920 you're thinking about it from a corporate perspective, is then 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:23.040 your user numbers go down, and probably in those cases, 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:27.520 those fake profiles are like, the person is probably paying 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.320 for that fake proflex that increases their reach. If they're 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:32.600 running some sort of scam and then they're paying, user 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:36.199 numbers would go down, which would be bad for most 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.880 dating app companies that are already doing poorly. A weird 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.240 thing I learned during this story is that Grinder is 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:47.880 like the most profitable dating app company because gay users don't. 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:50.520 I mean, this is a bit of a simplication, but 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.880 from what I heard, it is that gay users just 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.600 seem to pay for the platform and use it for 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:00.600 much longer. In part, researchers think because gay users are 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.160 more likely to be in non monogamous relationships. So you're 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:06.920 not You're not signing up for Hinge premium, using it 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:09.800 for cons, then getting in a monogamous relationship, and never 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:10.520 using it again. 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.000 So believe it or not, I once was an executive 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.600 overseeing parts of brides dot com. 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:17.640 Ah, yes, you're so bridled. 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:19.800 Yes, And I used to love to say I've got 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:23.080 to go to a bridees meeting. But the interest thing 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:26.199 there was that our audience would come in and leave 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:27.960 in nine months, and for their sake, you hope they 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:28.640 didn't come back. 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:29.200 Yeah. 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.400 Right, This is the other extreme of that. What happened 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:36.160 with the cases that were done against Sniffy's. What was 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:37.240 the status of those cases? 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:39.560 Well, I mean, so the cases that we that I 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:43.640 tracked were all kind of like sex crimes against involving 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:47.800 specific like male offenders. In two cases that we kind 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:51.080 of follow throughout the story involving this then fourteen year 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:53.960 old who made an accountant Sniffy's and had sex to adults. 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:56.679 Those two adults have since been sentenced to upwards of 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:57.760 as the question. 0:12:57.960 --> 0:12:59.720 Those work cases against Sniffy's in any. 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:03.040 Case against people, that's the thing that Sniffy is no 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:06.439 cases against him. I spoke to a parent, the parent 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.040 of that fourteen year old, and she said, like, of 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:11.040 course Sniffy should be sued. I don't know how to 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:12.240 do it. I'm dealing with, you. 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.560 Know, three dealing with a criminal case. 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.840 I'm dealing with three foster kids that already were fucked up, 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.439 and now my fourteen year old is super fucked up 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.080 and has tried to commit suicide because of this whole thing. 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:24.760 You know, She's like, I don't know how to do this, 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:27.920 but I do think that if something happens on the 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:32.480 doversus Grinder front, you might see cases like this increasing 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:35.160 increasingly being fut in the country. 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.160 And could this not be extrap laid out to a 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.760 much wider series of issues as well, like assaults that 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.960 happen with people of age that still happen as a 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:46.600 result of a platform. But but. 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.360 That's why I wanted to ask next, is when you 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:54.160 go to product liability, it's usually that you're not matching 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:58.240 a product promise. This is going to make you thin, 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:02.040 this is going to make you beautiful? Yeah, does does 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.520 Sniffy's promise safety? 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:09.240 This is maybe Tinda has these feeches. I believe Tinda 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:11.520 has feeches about like check in, So maybe like one 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:15.400 of the platforms has safety feaches, so kind of okay, Grinder. 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:17.440 One of the things noted in that is that Grinder 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:20.480 promotes itself as a quote safe space, and all of 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:25.600 these platforms say like our users are eighteen and up, 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:28.920 Like they say that they check users age, so they're 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:31.600 two promise that in a way but then I guess 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:35.040 the question goes, does asking someone to enter their date 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:37.640 of birth in just a form? Does that mean you've 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:39.000 actually checked their age? 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:40.760 Well, this is the interesting thing. We've talked about this 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.640 on our podcast on the Speak of Google is where 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.200 does a liability land. Is it at at the platform 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.680 technology level or is it the intermediary level, or is 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.520 it at the user level? And if we try to 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.640 expect the platforms to solve all the problems of mankind, 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:57.680 we know they're going to fail. Well, I think will fail. 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:01.280 Specifically with TINDA. Under the Safety Policy Center, it says, 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:04.240 and I quote our safety tools, we utilize a network 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.680 of industry leading automated and manual moderation review tools, systems, 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.760 and processes, and invest significant resources to prevent, monitor and 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:14.440 remove inappropriate behavior, impersonation, harassment, and more from our app. 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.880 These tools include automatic scans of profiles, red flag languages 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:20.640 and images, manual reviews of profiles, and it goes on 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.040 and so forth. And they also have a zero tolerance 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:26.240 policy of harassment and encourage their community to report any 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:27.520 instance of misconduct. 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:29.000 They have a liability statement there. 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:38.680 Now, yeah, see it's probably an additional policies decoration, harassment 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.360 under it. Bloody hell, they got a lot now, there's 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:43.520 just a lot of like things that they might be 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:47.640 under the terms of use. But nevertheless, if this goes, 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:51.160 if those versus Grinder happens, it feels like that won't 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.600 stop people suing and using this as a promise. 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.280 Certainly, Yeah, but there's a problem with that too. I've argued. 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.960 I mean, Facebook is now completely fucked up and going 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:07.240 full Maga, but I've argued strenuously over the years that 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:09.800 it should have had a raisal on debt, a north 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.800 star right right, and it should have said we're here 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.080 to be nice to each other, We're here to build community, 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:18.120 we're here to make strangers less strange. They do none 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.640 of that, and I wish they would have because perhaps 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.360 then there is a standard to hold them against and 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.000 also their users. However, in this discussion, if they say, well, 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:29.360 you said you're going to be the place where people 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.040 are nice, and now you're filled with harris but it 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.720 motivates them not to make any promises. Yes, yeah, that's 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:36.560 a problem. I think. 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:38.960 Also an IDC company, so I don't really that's the 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.320 company that owns Tinder and match Group and a bunch 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:43.840 of other ones like Chemistry dot Com and I don't 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.040 they're evil, Like, this is my statement, you don't have 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.760 to follow. I think they're deeply evil companies. But this 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:51.720 Sniffy's thing is a level worse. 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.280 And I mean, I just think it's interesting because sniffy 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:57.120 is I mean, is kind of like the worst of 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.520 all these problems because it is completely without any of 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:00.200 the safe. 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:02.960 A frictionless experience. 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:07.560 Yeah, but it's also gotten so popular in the last 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:10.119 couple of years dating app the big dating apps are 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.320 taking notice. Like Grinder shouted it out basically in one 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:15.880 of their most recent earnings called said when an analyst 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:17.600 had asked, like, oh, are there any competitors in the 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.520 space that you're looking for keeping an eye on, and 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:22.800 their CFO had said something along as there's like an 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:27.160 anonymous they basically described Sniffy's in name but without using 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:28.840 their name, and said we're keeping an eye on them. 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.560 They also then introduced a feature I believe called right 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:35.000 now that users on Grinder can turn on if they're 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:40.280 looking for sex right that instant and other apps in 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.919 the gay dating space have kind of emerged that are 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.800 trying to take kind of a similar map based cruising approach. 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:48.879 It is really funny though that the aultmeth thing is 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:51.280 they were just like, yeah, why if we didn't follow 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:52.240 any rules? 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:53.879 It is pretty funny. 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:57.199 What if we just turned off the rules pot? And 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.720 I think that kind of leads us to Meta right now, 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.919 because I think what you're seeing with the destruction of Meta, 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.680 and I'm sure you two have heard, but for the listeners, 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.399 Meta has now got rid of all of their content 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.280 moderation stuff. They've got ridly well. They're claiming that well 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.840 their fact check the fact check a sorry sorry fact check, 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:17.800 and I just fucked up the fact check, didn't I. 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.200 And now and now they're laying off five percent No, 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:24.040 thank god, someone else you know what's going on now. 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.359 They're laying off five percent of their people for quote 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:30.120 underperforming and they're gonna They're claiming the lms will replace 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:34.480 like second tier engineers. And also they have cas in 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:36.200 you and actually I've given them a lot of shit, 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.000 but he's put out some really good things recently about 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:41.840 what Meta has said inside and how they're doing allowable 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.520 things like just straight up homophobia, straight up. 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:47.600 I mean, they just around the same time that these 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.800 announcements rolled out that an internal directive went out to 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:56.560 remove tampons and pads from any male restrooms on Facebook campuses, which. 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:57.480 Is just a foolish thing. 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:00.520 It's just that that is costing you money. You already 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:03.320 have those dispensers in there, why not just leave them there. 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.120 But I think that it's something above MAGA as well, 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.000 and I think that people willing to do what I'm 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.920 about to describe might lean conservative because it's evil. Now, 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:14.600 if you're listening to your conservativecy it, don't be so rude, 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:16.480 shout the fuck up. I don't care now. 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:18.160 I'm surprised you've made it this far. 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:20.840 And yeah, I don't know how you are that. No, 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:24.040 it's all the anti monopoly people who are like, God, 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:28.240 damn it, yeah, Matt Stola. Anyways, So the point I'm 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:30.600 making is I think Meta is going to be the 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:33.800