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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Change is coming. Now it's my time to record radio

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Speaker 2: better offline right here in the beautiful iHeartRadio studios on

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Speaker 2: fifty fifth Street, and my god, we're back from CS.

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Speaker 2: You couldn't stop me. I got off. I did thirteen

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Speaker 2: and a half bloody hours on the radio on the

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Speaker 2: podcast thing. I'm just don't know why I keep calling

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Speaker 2: it radio, and then got on the flight, moved to

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Speaker 2: New York. It was nothing, wore off a ducks back

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Speaker 2: and now it's Tuesday and we're already recording again. You'll

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Speaker 2: never get rid of me. And today I have two

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Speaker 2: amazing guests. I have Paris Martineau, reporter at the Information

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Speaker 2: and the Mighty Jeff Jarvis, author of the Gutenberg Parenthesis

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Speaker 2: and journalisman professor over at Stonybrook University. Mister Jarvis is

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Speaker 2: currently he is fielding a phone call, so I'll go

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Speaker 2: to Paris. Hey doing Paris.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great. I'm astounded by energy levels given the

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Speaker 1: amount of podcasting and radio you've done the last week.

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Speaker 2: I am. I am fired up. I love doing this.

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Speaker 2: I think this is what I was meant to do.

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Speaker 3: How are your feet after cees?

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Speaker 2: Fantastic? I got inserts from my I like came to

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Speaker 2: this show fully prepared. No one realizes how much like

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Speaker 2: the amount of like Google docs, I had of things prepared,

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Speaker 2: like the suitcases packed like two weeks in advance, and

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Speaker 2: then I got to New York and I'd forgotten things

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Speaker 2: like gym shorts and some shoes. And basically I prepared

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Speaker 2: my life for one thing, not both things.

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Speaker 1: And it's podcasting, podcasting and blogging and nothing else.

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Speaker 2: Sleep slave to the content. Now, mister Jarvis, how have

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Speaker 2: you been?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Good, good, it's cold here.

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Speaker 2: It is good.

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Speaker 3: Do you have any regret coming here right now?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely not. Okay, I'd rather take this real last weather

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Speaker 2: than the nonsense I get back in England. Oh it's

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Speaker 2: kind of cold, but I usually see you two on

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Speaker 2: this week in Tech, so it's good to have you

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Speaker 2: here in person.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's lovely to be irl with you. Some might

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Speaker 1: say it's better offline.

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Speaker 2: It's better offline, but it is very online. So all right, Paris,

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Speaker 2: you had a story come out of the weekend. I

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Speaker 2: did tell us about it.

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Speaker 1: So it is a story about this website called Sniffy's.

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Speaker 1: Have you guys ever heard of it?

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Speaker 3: Right there, I want to stop and I don't want

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Speaker 3: to know anything, Moore.

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Speaker 1: I think, well, it's actually where I'm that's probably a

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Speaker 1: fair station. It is the up and coming, I guess,

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Speaker 1: competitor to Grinder. It's a website for men seeking men.

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Speaker 1: But it is specifically unlike you know, kind of your

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Speaker 1: dating apps of your it's not really about dating, it's.

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Speaker 2: About it's actual hook up.

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Speaker 1: It's a hookup app, just for field. It is an

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Speaker 1: actual app, and it's supposed to be kind of about

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Speaker 1: translating the gay cruising scene into online.

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Speaker 2: Potentially, right idea? Why not?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, people seem to really love it. It started in

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Speaker 1: some kind of infancy form in twenty sixteen, but in

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Speaker 1: the last couple of years has really taken off among

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Speaker 1: like gays in big cities and cities honestly big and small.

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Speaker 2: However, so nothing went wrong.

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Speaker 1: Nothing went wrong, that's the end of the story. I

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Speaker 1: just like writing about when companies do good. So in

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Speaker 1: this case, part of the thing that made Sniffy's so

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Speaker 1: attractive to its users is it's kind of a no

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Speaker 1: holds barred approach to hook up platforms. You don't even

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Speaker 1: have to make an account to sign in. You can

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Speaker 1: just type in Sniffy's dot com say yeah, I'm over eighteen,

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Speaker 1: and then get to like navigating a map ful of

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Speaker 1: dick picks and butt picks and messaging people and meeting up. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that is a problem because it seems like the site

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Speaker 1: has a bit of a child user issue. And when

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Speaker 1: you have a child user issue, when you're a dating

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Speaker 1: and sex platform, you also have a child sexual abuse platform.

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Speaker 1: So me and my colleague Marie Weinberg identified over the

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Speaker 1: last kind of a year or so more than a

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Speaker 1: dozen cases where adult men had been charged for sex

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Speaker 1: crimes involving a minor.

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Speaker 2: They meant all facilitated directly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a lot, it seems for a relatively

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Speaker 1: small platform. It's about decide.

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Speaker 2: Still around afterwards? Is the thing that shocks me.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean part of it is because the question

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Speaker 1: of legal liability in these cases is a bit tricky.

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Speaker 1: You have companies like there's long been an issue of

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Speaker 1: kids getting onto adult dating apps and meeting adults, but

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Speaker 1: up until recently, every legal challenge that a company that

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Speaker 1: a parent or child that has grown up have tried

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Speaker 1: to kind of throw against these companies saying, hey, you're

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Speaker 1: actually not doing your job when it comes to policing

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Speaker 1: underage do there's every legal challenge has been swept away

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Speaker 1: by the company saying ah Section two.

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Speaker 2: Thirty, even legal challenges aside. Would they not want to

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Speaker 2: stop the children getting on the sex app? Well, it's

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Speaker 2: hard sensibly, Okay? Did they try? Not?

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Speaker 1: Really? Because all they wanted They don't want to have

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Speaker 1: to try harder, it seems because right.

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Speaker 2: Now the standard thing they don't want to try harder

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Speaker 2: on is stopping adults having sex with children.

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Speaker 1: Yes, because that would require taking on some responsible ability.

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Speaker 1: And right now, what all they all these companies do

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Speaker 1: is they just ask you for your birthday and assume

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Speaker 1: that you didn't lie, because if they were going to

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Speaker 1: do anything more stringent than that, that could open them

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Speaker 1: up to liability.

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Speaker 3: Explain something to me. So back Page and Craigslist took

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Speaker 3: down their their sex sections.

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Speaker 2: And also just for the for the listeners, Backpage, can

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Speaker 2: you just run us through that.

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Speaker 3: Backpage was a place where you could hook up. It

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Speaker 3: was probably more of a singles into sex thing, right

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Speaker 3: and Craigslist was pretty much singles but in within that

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Speaker 3: people would find each other for that purpose.

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Speaker 2: And then back Page was shut down.

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Speaker 3: But the back Page shut down and Craigslist voluntarily got

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Speaker 3: out of it because the liability was high, right, that

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Speaker 3: was so they were shut down because it was sex

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Speaker 3: trafficking or between that and what Snuffy.

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Speaker 1: I believe part of the difference is when it comes

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Speaker 1: to Backpage and Craigslist seeking connecttions, part of what they

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Speaker 1: were originally shut down for involved fast assessed it involved

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Speaker 1: specifically like sexual exploitation and sex traffic. FOSTA and SESTA

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Speaker 1: were a package of bills that kind of went through

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Speaker 1: some amounts of years ago that ended up regulating and

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Speaker 1: making it making it so that these companies could not

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Speaker 1: use the Section two thirty defense as a way to

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Speaker 1: get around claims.

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Speaker 2: They were made responsible for us to generated content. Yes, right,

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Speaker 2: got it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so in Sniffy's case, it's a bit different. Well,

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Speaker 1: in some ways it's not a lot different, because part

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Speaker 1: of the issue of what we found of those a

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Speaker 1: dozen cases, i'd say like over a third of them

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Speaker 1: did involve money being exchanged for sex with minors. However,

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Speaker 1: part of it comes.

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Speaker 2: To the fact love of the game, I guess.

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Speaker 1: I guess part of it is that up until fairly recently,

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Speaker 1: dating apps hadn't really badly claims like this against them.

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Speaker 1: Whenever they had, they'd been basically laughed at of corpse, saying, Oh,

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Speaker 1: of course, Grinder is not responsible for connecting your fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old to a bunch of thirty year olds. It's

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Speaker 1: a tech platform, it's user generated content. However, due to

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Speaker 1: kind of shifting tides in the way that judges are

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Speaker 1: viewing Internet companies, like defense says that's starting to change

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Speaker 1: right now. There is a lawsuit that is going to

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Speaker 1: be heard by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals involving

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Speaker 1: a case called Dovee Grinder where a fifteen year old

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Speaker 1: basically got on Grinder ended up being connected with four

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Speaker 1: men who raped him. And part of what the attorney

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Speaker 1: carry Goldberg is claiming in this appeal or arguing is

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Speaker 1: that Grinder shouldn't be able to hide behind Section two

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Speaker 1: thirty to say, hey, it's not our fault that we

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Speaker 1: didn't age verify, that Grinder should be held liable for

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Speaker 1: its faulty age verification policies under kind of product liability law,

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Speaker 1: saying that this is a defectively designed product. And that's

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Speaker 1: a specific argument the Ninth Circuit Court has been like

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Speaker 1: amenable to when it comes to other tech companies like Snapchat,

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Speaker 1: for instance.

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Speaker 2: So what happened in the rest of the story.

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Speaker 1: In the rest of the story, basically we identified all

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Speaker 1: these different cases. We talked to Sniffy's. They said that

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Speaker 1: they are working on an ID based age verification solution,

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Speaker 1: but in reality, the only way that that's currently in

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Speaker 1: practice is just in the dozen or so states that

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Speaker 1: currently have pornography restrictions to where like part of the

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Speaker 1: thing is if you open up Sniffe's, it's like a

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Speaker 1: map and all the profile photos are like photos of penises.

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Speaker 1: So if you are in one of those states with yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're in one of those states, recognize yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: you'll we'll see exactly where they are. If you are

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Speaker 1: in one of those states. When you open it up now,

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Speaker 1: you'll see a blurred image and if you want to

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Speaker 1: see the penis photos, you have to enter in your ID. However,

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Speaker 1: the company says that there may be going to expand

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Speaker 1: this in some way it hasn't happened yet.

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Speaker 2: That would potentially open up legal liability.

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Speaker 1: Then yeah, and that's but part of the thing is

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Speaker 1: users also don't want to do that.

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Speaker 2: So I mean that was kind of what I was

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Speaker 2: thinking that would kind of kill it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or a platform like that is never going to

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Speaker 1: be successful if it has that sort of barrier to

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Speaker 1: entry and certiplications are huge.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're handing over your identification to a company called Sniffies. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and I meant I wouldn't feel terribly secure in that.

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Speaker 2: I mean I would, of course, but that's just me.

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Speaker 2: But no, you also, you're right though, it's like these

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Speaker 2: I imagine part of the thing here, other than the

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Speaker 2: thing you're doing on there, is that it is kind

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Speaker 2: of anonymous. Yes, that is that's the whole point, completely hidden,

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Speaker 2: the thing where you can go off and touch all

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Speaker 2: and sundry the problem being all in sundry there. What

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Speaker 2: the legal ramifications though, if like the what was it

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Speaker 2: do versus Grinder?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so the thing is if that case,

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Speaker 1: when it's appealed nines to the court, if they rule

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Speaker 1: in a similar way that they have in the past

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Speaker 1: and say, hey, when it comes to product liability cases

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Speaker 1: like this, tech companies don't have a defense, that could

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Speaker 1: have huge ramifications for every.

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Speaker 2: Company in the dating app, not just for dating even I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, it could yeah, be way bigger than dating. But

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Speaker 1: I mean the immediate impacts, according to the attorneys I

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Speaker 1: spoke to, would be certainly on the dating app scene,

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Speaker 1: which is huge because.

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Speaker 2: We'll all change with those things.

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Speaker 1: I mean probably what would change is they'd have to

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Speaker 1: find a way to determine user age beyond just asking

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Speaker 1: you for your to enter in your birthday, So it

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Speaker 1: could be things like some of the other dating app

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Speaker 1: companies out there already have stuff in place. For instance,

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Speaker 1: I believe Bumble and one other maybe Tender, scan user

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Speaker 1: profile photos when they're uploaded to see like, does this

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Speaker 1: person look like clearly a child and if so, they

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Speaker 1: might ask you to upload your idea to verify that

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Speaker 1: you're over eighteen.

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Speaker 2: I feel like there could also be a big problem.

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Speaker 2: So I've been on the dating apps for a while,

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Speaker 2: not that I'm not single, it just nobody likes me.

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Speaker 2: And I remember when I was on them it was

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Speaker 2: like months and months. Actually, no like last year, like

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Speaker 2: early last year. It's been a while. There was a

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Speaker 2: huge fake profile problem, and I wonder if there's not

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Speaker 2: a secondary problem here where the dominance of these fake

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Speaker 2: profiles on there might get pushed away when they have

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Speaker 2: to stop verifying every us because that feels like the

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Speaker 2: on the s.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean then part of the problem, if

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Speaker 1: you're thinking about it from a corporate perspective, is then

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Speaker 1: your user numbers go down, and probably in those cases,

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Speaker 1: those fake profiles are like, the person is probably paying

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Speaker 1: for that fake proflex that increases their reach. If they're

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Speaker 1: running some sort of scam and then they're paying, user

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Speaker 1: numbers would go down, which would be bad for most

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Speaker 1: dating app companies that are already doing poorly. A weird

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Speaker 1: thing I learned during this story is that Grinder is

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Speaker 1: like the most profitable dating app company because gay users don't.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is a bit of a simplication, but

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Speaker 1: from what I heard, it is that gay users just

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Speaker 1: seem to pay for the platform and use it for

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Speaker 1: much longer. In part, researchers think because gay users are

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Speaker 1: more likely to be in non monogamous relationships. So you're

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Speaker 1: not You're not signing up for Hinge premium, using it

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Speaker 1: for cons, then getting in a monogamous relationship, and never

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Speaker 1: using it again.

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Speaker 3: So believe it or not, I once was an executive

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Speaker 3: overseeing parts of brides dot com.

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Speaker 1: Ah, yes, you're so bridled.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And I used to love to say I've got

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Speaker 3: to go to a bridees meeting. But the interest thing

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Speaker 3: there was that our audience would come in and leave

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Speaker 3: in nine months, and for their sake, you hope they

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Speaker 3: didn't come back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Right, This is the other extreme of that. What happened

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Speaker 3: with the cases that were done against Sniffy's. What was

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Speaker 3: the status of those cases?

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, so the cases that we that I

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Speaker 1: tracked were all kind of like sex crimes against involving

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Speaker 1: specific like male offenders. In two cases that we kind

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Speaker 1: of follow throughout the story involving this then fourteen year

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Speaker 1: old who made an accountant Sniffy's and had sex to adults.

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Speaker 1: Those two adults have since been sentenced to upwards of

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Speaker 1: as the question.

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Speaker 3: Those work cases against Sniffy's in any.

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Speaker 1: Case against people, that's the thing that Sniffy is no

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Speaker 1: cases against him. I spoke to a parent, the parent

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Speaker 1: of that fourteen year old, and she said, like, of

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Speaker 1: course Sniffy should be sued. I don't know how to

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Speaker 1: do it. I'm dealing with, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, three dealing with a criminal case.

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Speaker 1: I'm dealing with three foster kids that already were fucked up,

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Speaker 1: and now my fourteen year old is super fucked up

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Speaker 1: and has tried to commit suicide because of this whole thing.

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Speaker 1: You know, She's like, I don't know how to do this,

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Speaker 1: but I do think that if something happens on the

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Speaker 1: doversus Grinder front, you might see cases like this increasing

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Speaker 1: increasingly being fut in the country.

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Speaker 2: And could this not be extrap laid out to a

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Speaker 2: much wider series of issues as well, like assaults that

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Speaker 2: happen with people of age that still happen as a

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Speaker 2: result of a platform. But but.

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Speaker 3: That's why I wanted to ask next, is when you

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Speaker 3: go to product liability, it's usually that you're not matching

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Speaker 3: a product promise. This is going to make you thin,

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Speaker 3: this is going to make you beautiful? Yeah, does does

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Speaker 3: Sniffy's promise safety?

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Speaker 2: This is maybe Tinda has these feeches. I believe Tinda

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Speaker 2: has feeches about like check in, So maybe like one

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Speaker 2: of the platforms has safety feaches, so kind of okay, Grinder.

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Speaker 1: One of the things noted in that is that Grinder

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Speaker 1: promotes itself as a quote safe space, and all of

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Speaker 1: these platforms say like our users are eighteen and up,

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Speaker 1: Like they say that they check users age, so they're

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Speaker 1: two promise that in a way but then I guess

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Speaker 1: the question goes, does asking someone to enter their date

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Speaker 1: of birth in just a form? Does that mean you've

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Speaker 1: actually checked their age?

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Speaker 3: Well, this is the interesting thing. We've talked about this

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Speaker 3: on our podcast on the Speak of Google is where

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Speaker 3: does a liability land. Is it at at the platform

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Speaker 3: technology level or is it the intermediary level, or is

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Speaker 3: it at the user level? And if we try to

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Speaker 3: expect the platforms to solve all the problems of mankind,

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Speaker 3: we know they're going to fail. Well, I think will fail.

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Speaker 2: Specifically with TINDA. Under the Safety Policy Center, it says,

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Speaker 2: and I quote our safety tools, we utilize a network

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Speaker 2: of industry leading automated and manual moderation review tools, systems,

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Speaker 2: and processes, and invest significant resources to prevent, monitor and

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Speaker 2: remove inappropriate behavior, impersonation, harassment, and more from our app.

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Speaker 2: These tools include automatic scans of profiles, red flag languages

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Speaker 2: and images, manual reviews of profiles, and it goes on

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Speaker 2: and so forth. And they also have a zero tolerance

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Speaker 2: policy of harassment and encourage their community to report any

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Speaker 2: instance of misconduct.

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Speaker 3: They have a liability statement there.

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Speaker 2: Now, yeah, see it's probably an additional policies decoration, harassment

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Speaker 2: under it. Bloody hell, they got a lot now, there's

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Speaker 2: just a lot of like things that they might be

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Speaker 2: under the terms of use. But nevertheless, if this goes,

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Speaker 2: if those versus Grinder happens, it feels like that won't

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Speaker 2: stop people suing and using this as a promise.

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Speaker 3: Certainly, Yeah, but there's a problem with that too. I've argued.

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Speaker 3: I mean, Facebook is now completely fucked up and going

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Speaker 3: full Maga, but I've argued strenuously over the years that

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Speaker 3: it should have had a raisal on debt, a north

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Speaker 3: star right right, and it should have said we're here

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Speaker 3: to be nice to each other, We're here to build community,

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Speaker 3: we're here to make strangers less strange. They do none

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Speaker 3: of that, and I wish they would have because perhaps

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Speaker 3: then there is a standard to hold them against and

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Speaker 3: also their users. However, in this discussion, if they say, well,

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Speaker 3: you said you're going to be the place where people

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Speaker 3: are nice, and now you're filled with harris but it

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Speaker 3: motivates them not to make any promises. Yes, yeah, that's

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Speaker 3: a problem. I think.

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Speaker 2: Also an IDC company, so I don't really that's the

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Speaker 2: company that owns Tinder and match Group and a bunch

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Speaker 2: of other ones like Chemistry dot Com and I don't

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Speaker 2: they're evil, Like, this is my statement, you don't have

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Speaker 2: to follow. I think they're deeply evil companies. But this

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Speaker 2: Sniffy's thing is a level worse.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, I just think it's interesting because sniffy

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Speaker 1: is I mean, is kind of like the worst of

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Speaker 1: all these problems because it is completely without any of

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Speaker 1: the safe.

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Speaker 2: A frictionless experience.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's also gotten so popular in the last

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Speaker 1: couple of years dating app the big dating apps are

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Speaker 1: taking notice. Like Grinder shouted it out basically in one

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Speaker 1: of their most recent earnings called said when an analyst

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Speaker 1: had asked, like, oh, are there any competitors in the

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Speaker 1: space that you're looking for keeping an eye on, and

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Speaker 1: their CFO had said something along as there's like an

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Speaker 1: anonymous they basically described Sniffy's in name but without using

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Speaker 1: their name, and said we're keeping an eye on them.

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Speaker 1: They also then introduced a feature I believe called right

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Speaker 1: now that users on Grinder can turn on if they're

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Speaker 1: looking for sex right that instant and other apps in

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Speaker 1: the gay dating space have kind of emerged that are

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Speaker 1: trying to take kind of a similar map based cruising approach.

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Speaker 2: It is really funny though that the aultmeth thing is

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Speaker 2: they were just like, yeah, why if we didn't follow

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Speaker 2: any rules?

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Speaker 1: It is pretty funny.

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Speaker 2: What if we just turned off the rules pot? And

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Speaker 2: I think that kind of leads us to Meta right now,

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Speaker 2: because I think what you're seeing with the destruction of Meta,

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Speaker 2: and I'm sure you two have heard, but for the listeners,

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Speaker 2: Meta has now got rid of all of their content

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Speaker 2: moderation stuff. They've got ridly well. They're claiming that well

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Speaker 2: their fact check the fact check a sorry sorry fact check,

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Speaker 2: and I just fucked up the fact check, didn't I.

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Speaker 2: And now and now they're laying off five percent No,

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Speaker 2: thank god, someone else you know what's going on now.

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Speaker 2: They're laying off five percent of their people for quote

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Speaker 2: underperforming and they're gonna They're claiming the lms will replace

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Speaker 2: like second tier engineers. And also they have cas in

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Speaker 2: you and actually I've given them a lot of shit,

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Speaker 2: but he's put out some really good things recently about

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Speaker 2: what Meta has said inside and how they're doing allowable

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Speaker 2: things like just straight up homophobia, straight up.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they just around the same time that these

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Speaker 1: announcements rolled out that an internal directive went out to

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Speaker 1: remove tampons and pads from any male restrooms on Facebook campuses, which.

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Speaker 2: Is just a foolish thing.

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Speaker 1: It's just that that is costing you money. You already

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Speaker 1: have those dispensers in there, why not just leave them there.

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Speaker 2: But I think that it's something above MAGA as well,

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Speaker 2: and I think that people willing to do what I'm

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Speaker 2: about to describe might lean conservative because it's evil. Now,

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Speaker 2: if you're listening to your conservativecy it, don't be so rude,

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Speaker 2: shout the fuck up. I don't care now.

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Speaker 1: I'm surprised you've made it this far.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I don't know how you are that. No,

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Speaker 2: it's all the anti monopoly people who are like, God,

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Speaker 2: damn it, yeah, Matt Stola. Anyways, So the point I'm

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Speaker 2: making is I think Meta is going to be the

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Speaker 2: largest scale example of a company just not giving a

402
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Speaker 2: shit in history. They're just doing all the evil stuff.

403
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Speaker 2: They're using this as a chance to get rid of

404
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Speaker 2: these troublesome things such as any kind of diversity, ecity

405
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Speaker 2: and inclusion, harassing trans people by removing them from spaces.

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Speaker 3: It's all around American and industry now, McDonald's, which depends

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Speaker 3: upon black customers and depends upon black employees and people

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Speaker 3: of color. No, DEI get rid of it. We don't

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Speaker 3: care anymore. We're not going to do that anymore. And Meta,

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Speaker 3: which cared about you know, and getting together and all

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Speaker 3: that bs right. I was very impressed by Mark Limley,

412
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 3: who is a Stanford law professor and a big deal

413
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:13,159
Speaker 3: in West Coast law. He is deactivating his account, but

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Speaker 3: he's also firing Meta as a customer. Hell yeah, as

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Speaker 3: a client, And he said, I have struggled with how

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Speaker 3: to respond to Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook's dissent into toxic

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Speaker 3: masculinity and neo Nazi madness. Yeay, And that's a lot

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Speaker 3: of it is. It's not just political. It's this toast

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Speaker 3: your I don't ads.

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Speaker 2: I actually know. I take back my hell yeah, overcount

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Speaker 2: my hell yeah.

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Speaker 3: So this is you, thank you. They're waiting for this moment.

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Speaker 3: But also like.

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Speaker 2: Hell yeah now, but like Daylight Dollar show. As you

425
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 2: can ask Jeff Jeff Horwitz, the Wall Street journalists have

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Speaker 2: broken code. Meta has been backing up the Mega people

427
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 2: for years and years and years. They have benefit. They

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00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:56,400
Speaker 2: allowed plandemic to spread a horrible conspiracy film. Then I'm

429
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,639
Speaker 2: not even going to describe it sounds stupid and it

430
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Speaker 2: is stupid. It's for moron whatever it's meant to be

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Speaker 2: a big ten. I don't care. Jeff Kaplan, who is

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Speaker 2: now the head of Global policy, I believe right, Joel Coot,

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Speaker 2: Why do I keep mixing those back? Check you again, man, Now,

434
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Speaker 2: this is why you have guests because I'm too stupid

435
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Speaker 2: to remember things. He intervened with the Public Health Group

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00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 2: specifically to allow plandemic to continue to go through. And

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Speaker 2: when Kevin Russ attempted to report on this and report

438
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 2: that crowd Tangle, this internal tool had allowed them to

439
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,880
Speaker 2: see that these things were spreading and that Dan Bongino

440
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 2: and all the conservatives were basically all that was being recommended.

441
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 2: Alex Schultz, the CMO of Facebook at the time. Meta,

442
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 2: Now he just shut down crowd Tangle.

443
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 3: Baby.

444
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 2: You can't have that, can't have people knowing. Alex Schultz

445
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 2: also recently suggested on the anti LGBTQ front, and he

446
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 2: is a gay man, that seeing homophobia and some such

447
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 2: business on there would make people more sympathetic to the

448
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 2: cause of LGBTQP.

449
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 3: This is perverse it is.

450
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,400
Speaker 2: It's disgusting. But the thing is, it's I think what's

451
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 2: frustrating me, and perhaps I need to stop things like

452
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 2: it's not just maga is maga, of course it is,

453
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 2: but it's been here for a while, and it's been

454
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,719
Speaker 2: here egregiously. They've been supporting the Conservatives at scale, and

455
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 2: I mean supporting as a media property. And so it's

456
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 2: just I just can't take it so seriously when people

457
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 2: are going, well, this is Monk Zika finally giving in. No,

458
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 2: that repressed little fuck he's oh going on, Joe Rogan Woo,

459
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 2: things are not masculine enough. What the least masculine thing

460
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 2: I've ever heard? Anyway? Right?

461
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:34,400
Speaker 3: No, So on this Week of Google last week, I said,

462
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 3: you know, is there anybody left? I thought that Jeff

463
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 3: Bezos was a responsible steward of the Washington Post. He's not.

464
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 3: Mark Zuckerberg was always a dork, but I didn't think

465
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 3: he was as bad. Jack Dorsey gets weirder by the

466
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 3: day and or not. And I said on the show

467
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 3: that Jensen Wong, the CEO and founder of Nvidia, I'd

468
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 3: watched his two hour keynote at the CS I was

469
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 3: I'm impressed by it by him Costley, So well, maybe

470
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,160
Speaker 3: there's maybe there's a smart guy next.

471
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: Day believing the good people.

472
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,679
Speaker 3: The next day on MASTERD and somebody said, this is

473
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,640
Speaker 3: your good guy. Jensen Wong was signing a woman's breast.

474
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 2: To say, Jeff, well, first of all, if she asked,

475
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 2: if she asked, But also I would choose the other

476
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 2: thing that Jensen Huang did. At ces So during one

477
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 2: of the presentations, an audio guy was like, hurried on,

478
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 2: he goes, I can hear myself, I can hear myself.

479
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: And the guy's like, no, no, mister, mister Houang. It's

480
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 2: reflecting off the size. He's like, no, no, And he

481
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 2: was called Sebastian. I believe he's like I'm when I

482
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 2: when someone makes a mistake, I'm gonna call it a

483
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 2: Sebastian going forward, Okay, that's the thing. It is a

484
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 2: fair thing, though, and I'm not saying I think there

485
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 2: are some who want this more than others. It would

486
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: be nice if one of them wasn't insane. I thought

487
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 2: it was Mark Benioff for a while, I thought I

488
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: thought Mark Benioff was all right. And I actually had

489
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 2: coffee with the report after I met him and like

490
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: described him positively, and she said, so he's just another

491
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 2: white TEXTI I'm like, oh shit, I'm doing the thing

492
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 2: that I'm doing the exact thing, but also be too.

493
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: So may I put together my theory forward? My theory

494
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: it's called CEO.

495
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 2: Brainworms, Please Please.

496
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: It's simply that if you are a CEO of something,

497
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 1: especially a large company, you increasingly get brainworms, which is

498
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: just you are surrounded by people whose job is largely

499
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: to say yes to you, make you feel good, and

500
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: that would make anyone insane. If you are surrounded by

501
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,239
Speaker 1: sick evans for long enough, I think that you are

502
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: going to become untethered from reality in a way that

503
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: is distressing to a person that exists in conflats.

504
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 2: Someone on Twitter once said, being a billionaire is like

505
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 2: being kicked in the horse and the head by horse

506
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 2: every day. And I think that's fair.

507
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 3: But there's something different now. I think they've always been sexists.

508
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 3: It's a male structure that's given, but the permission structure

509
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 3: has changed, rightly, yes, and I don't think it necessarily.

510
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 3: Their essence has changed, But they're all freed.

511
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 2: They're untethered, yes, and yeah, I I fully agree with that.

512
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: And I think you're really seeing it with Zuckerberg, and

513
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 2: it kind of makes so much more. I wish I

514
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 2: would have called this one, because he is doing exactly

515
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 2: what you'd expect. He's just I'm gonna remove all of

516
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 2: the stuff that makes Facebook already a basically unusable platform.

517
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: I'm gonna make it. I'm just gonna add all the

518
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 2: racism back. We need some more racism there. And I'm

519
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 2: just gonna fire a bunch of people, and I'm gonna

520
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 2: go on Joe Rogan and talk about my sad little

521
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 2: Willy or whatever he said. I didn't watch. I don't care.

522
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 2: It's just what happens with Google now? Is my question?

523
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: What is the untethered Sundar Peshai experience.

524
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 3: I'm gonna be naive again. I think it's different, maybe

525
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 3: because Sundar is educated and Luri and Sergei are educated,

526
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 3: and Zuckerberg left sophomore year seminar brain.

527
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 2: Sure, but I'm not sure that I've met plenty of

528
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: psychotic people in college. True, and I'm just true. I'm

529
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: just wondering, perhaps I should reframe the question. It's like,

530
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,360
Speaker 2: what happens the Google now? How how worried about Google's quality.

531
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 2: I am if like, because this is what's what Meta

532
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 2: is doing is effectively what Google's been working on. It's

533
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 2: the whole thing of degrading the quality of the service

534
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: by taking off the things that makes it good.

535
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 3: Well, I argue that different industry that the problem for

536
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 3: Google isn't just Google. The problem is the web. The

537
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 3: Web is being ruined as a whole, and it's a

538
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 3: window on to a worse web, and.

539
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: In some ways Google is accelerating that. But yeah, Google has,

540
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: as it is the portal to the Web, entire industries

541
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: upon industries have emerged to a game that portal of

542
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 1: the web, which results in kind of a self fulfilling

543
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: prophecy of the quality.

544
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 2: The content that they raise becomes the most popular content,

545
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: which in turn informs what will be popular next.

546
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 3: Yes, or it's an armload of a chicken today.

547
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm angry. It's I think that this is

548
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: really going to hasten the row economy. I think this

549
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 2: is just going to begin more rot because before there

550
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 2: was this lair and they obviously all resented it where

551
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 2: it was just like god, oh yeah, there's different colored people.

552
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: I guess fucking because woman now Jesus Christ, and they've

553
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 2: always like grumpily accepted it. And Meta has been weirdly

554
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 2: one of the better ones, which means that the ones

555
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: who are not going, what do you think fucking Tesla's

556
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 2: gonna be? Like Tesla's not going to have bathroom for

557
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 2: woman anymore? That's a guess, it's it's it's a joke.

558
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 2: I don't know who are you worried about jet Like

559
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 2: who who's the real bastard left? Who's the bustard who

560
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: hasn't basted it yet?

561
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 3: Well, that's I think that's the I hope the Google

562
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 3: is not going to go that far, I think for

563
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 3: their business, and it would be any any good. Here's

564
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 3: the other question blue Sky?

565
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 2: Right?

566
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 3: Do we have any hope for Blue Sky?

567
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 2: So?

568
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 3: I have, but I'm an optimist. I hold out hope.

569
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 3: I like Blue Sky.

570
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: I'm a nihilist, but I have hope for Blue Sky.

571
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 3: Selfishly yes, And then I saw did you see the

572
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 3: thing yesterday? I've got to pull up the rundown. There's

573
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 3: an effort to raise thirty million dollars.

574
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: Is this the free my appads, which which is filled

575
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: with people like Shoshana Zuboff. This to me what I

576
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 2: was already on my notes. I'm glad you brought this up.

577
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 2: It's really what is it?

578
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 3: And Dave Winer, who's one of the pioneers of RSS

579
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 3: and podcasting and blogging and so on, his response was,

580
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 3: there's no nerds there, there's no technologists there.

581
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 2: I also, it doesn't seem to be saying what they'll do.

582
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:22,959
Speaker 3: No, it did.

583
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what have they raised the money too?

584
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 2: They've not even raised the money.

585
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: They're declaring their hope to raise money. I'd also like

586
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: to declare that.

587
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 2: I also raise dollars.

588
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: I'll spend it on a Brownstone and give you ten

589
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: twenty millions.

590
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: I will keep the money and do nothing else.

591
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 3: What's the name of it again?

592
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: Free off feeds because I.

593
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 3: Want to go to the list of the people who

594
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: are associated.

595
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: No, it's really funny. There's Cory doctor wrote and Shoshana

596
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 2: zoo Buff right, which if if you've ever talked to

597
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 2: Corey about Shoshana Zoo Buff, let me just say that's

598
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: a weird coffee date.

599
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it marks a sermon from Mozilla, who I think

600
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 3: is a good guy, but Shoshana drives me crazy. Roger

601
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 3: mct to me, Oh, doesn't call me anymore, drives me nuts,

602
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,959
Speaker 3: Mark Ruffalo, Jimmy Wales, We like Brian eno Is everywhere,

603
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 3: Carol Cadwallader from Well the Guardians Soon, Roger Turtle.

604
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 2: It's just a bunch of people who don't build.

605
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 3: They don't build, they don't build. So uh, my friend

606
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 3: Craig new Mark.

607
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: Costically, what they want to use the raised funds for

608
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: is to launching a public interest foundation to support the

609
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: project while creating independently hosted infrastructure giving Blue Sky users, developers,

610
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: and researchers access to content.

611
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,959
Speaker 3: And then you don't need thirty million dollars to do that.

612
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 3: Mastodon built up to what it was just when went

613
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 3: after until the point where Musk bought Twitter Masterdon has

614
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 3: had raised an entirety.

615
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 2: Thousand Maston literally just did a nonprofit operation like a

616
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: day or two ago, saying that they're kind of decentralizing it. See.

617
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: I don't enjoy Mastodon at all. I don't think.

618
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: I think it's a bunch of scolds.

619
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like I need to do a content

620
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: warning because I didn't use a capital letter in the

621
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: right place exactly like I'm eating lunch. Wow, how dare

622
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: did you see that guy in the matrix. He didn't

623
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 2: even have a mouth. Now, I think what frustrates me

624
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 2: here is like Mastodon did something real that they moved

625
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: stuff around and this thing I got reached out to

626
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: by them, and I read a few articles and I'm

627
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: pretty stupid. So I was like, maybe someone else saw song.

628
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: I sent to a few friends. Everyone was like, this

629
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: looks good. I guess it isn't anything.

630
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 3: There's nothing.

631
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: It's just there's nothing. Why is everyone covered? Will Aramis

632
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: call me? Will it Aramis of the Washington boast to

633
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 2: I adore? Why are you giving them a Q and

634
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: a they he talked all about them. It's just it's

635
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: frustrating because I think it was the they've done kind

636
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: of I hope I'm wrong. I hope this thing does

637
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 2: the thing that they're non spit, but you could do it?

638
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: What is actually? I don't why am I even saying

639
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: I hope they do it. I actually cannot tell you

640
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 2: what they do.

641
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 3: So the eighth conception, to me, it should be to

642
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 3: federate Blue Sky, to take the at protocol and make

643
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 3: it federated like masterodot is like activity put right that

644
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 3: that requires Jay Graber and Blue Sky to have enough

645
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 3: resources to put out what's needed for federation.

646
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 2: And I wonder if that costs thirty million.

647
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 3: No, it doesn't.

648
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: What they want to do from what I understand of

649
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: this vague promise now is I think they want to

650
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: be like, hey, do you want to fund like the

651
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: other Blue Sky. It just feels this kind of vagueness

652
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: and now that we've listed out all the names and

653
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 2: just kind of like, this is a cynical This is

654
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: like one of those stand up to cancer thing.

655
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 3: No, No, it doesn't qualify.

656
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: It's cynical. It's cynical. And I like the thing is

657
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: there of people I look like, Corey's awesome.

658
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And it's like.

659
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: All of these promises without really promising anything. What does

660
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: that sound like? The tech industry like, why don't you

661
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 2: come to this with some things? And the answer is

662
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 2: they just want to talk about we want to make

663
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 2: it billionaire proof. What the fuck does that mean? Really

664
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 2: does have way more money than thirty million dollars. They've

665
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: got like one hundred and fifty million more dollars than that.

666
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: That's how much a billion is exactly, And it's just

667
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 2: everyone's kind of fallen for it. And I hope it

668
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: does something good, but I really cannot say what that

669
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 2: might be. And if their answer is well you didn't

670
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: read it well enough, not my fucking problem. Mate, You

671
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 2: explain the shit when you're talking to all and Sundry

672
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: about this.

673
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 3: Have you seen anything from Jay Graber or Eplusky about

674
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 3: what she thinks of this.

675
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: She gave a canned quote and said it was good

676
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 2: because I mean, if in her position, well, it'd be

677
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: funny if it's just like this bullshit fuck these people.

678
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, yeah, if someone wants to buy

679
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: out her startup for thirty million dollars.

680
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: Well, it's not even that. She was just like, yeah,

681
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 2: it's a pretty good thing. I think it might have

682
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 2: been Ja. I don't know if it was Jay who

683
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: did the quote, but it was something along the lines

684
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: of like this is cut good. You know that protol.

685
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 3: Mike Basnik is now on the board a Blue Sky.

686
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 3: He's the voice I'll trust on this.

687
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 2: Yes, I generally trust Mike. We have some differing opinions,

688
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: mostly on section two thirty, but I think that that's

689
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 2: everyone's experience with Mike.

690
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 3: It's just because I agree with Mike on section Yes.

691
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,479
Speaker 2: No, no, I know you know, I'm a huge man.

692
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: He was a guest on the show. He was one

693
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 2: of my favorite episodes, The streisand Effects.

694
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: I think. I think Mike is lovely.

695
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 2: He's wonderful, really really good storyteller and actually a good journalist,

696
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: which is why this whole thing is something I really

697
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 2: would like his opinion on, because it feels like the

698
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: kind of thing you get like a call bowe bode yes,

699
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 2: like an article and being like a bunch of tech people.

700
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: Ship it up again, Carl, I love it, but also

701
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: I don't want to be a wet blanket here but bloosh,

702
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 2: Like it's just frustrating because you know what we actually

703
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 2: need right now, like pixel fed or whatever, the federated

704
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: Instagram thing that is currently being blocked. What is pixel

705
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: It's just an Instagram that's decentralized, much like massif activity. Yeah,

706
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 2: it's an actual thing that probably could use thirty million

707
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,719
Speaker 2: dollars and is an actual story beyond it being blocked.

708
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 2: But the thing getting covered is a bunch of people

709
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 2: getting together and saying wouldn't it be nice if something

710
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: was nicer when you actually have someone doing the thing.

711
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: Because what we need right now is a blue sky

712
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 2: for Facebook, or we need Facebook equivalent and Instagram equivalent,

713
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: because once Meta loses their grip on those two things,

714
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 2: they are fucked. They do not have a real business.

715
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 2: The whole AI profiles thing, which we'll get to in

716
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: a minute, and all of this here, we're going to

717
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 2: take off the We're going to take off all the

718
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: things that I don't allow you to say, the fourteen

719
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 2: words every post. We're going to allow trans people to protect.

720
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 3: You.

721
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: Don't do that just because you're evil. Capitalism is generally

722
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: gonna move towards the most profitable direction. You do this

723
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 2: because all that stuff just got in the way of

724
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 2: more stuff and more growth. You break that machine with

725
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 2: an alternative that doesn't suck constantly.

726
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 3: Let we tried different theory on okay, which is that

727
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 3: I made fun of Musk buying Twitter forty four billion dollars.

728
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 3: What a fool you are, And we all know how

729
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,479
Speaker 3: wrong that was, because he's worth ten times more because

730
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 3: he sees access to power around the world around Yeah,

731
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 3: he used it. Is Zuckerberg simply jealous of Musk's political cloud?

732
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 2: Nah? I don't think so.

733
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 3: He's more more by money than power.

734
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 2: I think he could just given what do you.

735
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: Think, I mean, I think that that could be could thing.

736
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: I think that certainly access to political power is something

737
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: that he wants, as do all of these people. The

738
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 1: fact that Zuck Musk and who is the third person,

739
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 1: A bunch of text CEOs are going to be sitting

740
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: in Trump and Besis are going to be sitting in

741
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: Trump's little box of the inauguration, I think speaks volumes.

742
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 2: Did you cover a Facebook and I feel like you've

743
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 2: covered them previously?

744
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I covered them earlier on right?

745
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 2: Is this is there anything historic about? Because I was

746
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 2: just thinking, has Zuck about generally hung out with presidents

747
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 2: in any way? Like has he ever really been social

748
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 2: with them?

749
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: Maderstanding is no, not to this extent.

750
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 2: But I could be He's period. Remember he like his

751
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 2: I remember his.

752
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: It was notable in like twenty seventeen or eighteen when

753
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: he did a tour across America taking his little photos

754
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: stage to look like his normal height, and everyone was like,

755
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: oh wow, he's making a political statement. He could be moving.

756
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: He looks like he could be five foot nine. Yeah, yeah, No,

757
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: it's a there's definitely him standing on boxes or in

758
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: photos standing. He's five seven standing forward so that he

759
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: looks taller. However, I remember that being notable because it

760
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 1: felt like, yeah, he's actually like entering into the political sphere. Maybe,

761
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: but I think that he is, just as his political

762
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: star has risen, for better or worse over the last decade,

763
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: is cozied up to power quite a bit.

764
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 3: I'm about to say something terrible. Hell yeah, which is

765
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 3: when I was in Davos, I'm sorry.

766
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: By Jeff.

767
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 3: I was there in a session with Mark Zuckerberg, and

768
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 3: it was before he was media trained, And I've watched

769
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 3: him in a few conference settings back in the day

770
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 3: ten years ago, and he obviously hated it then. But

771
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 3: he's changed.

772
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: I think he has got the brainworms. But also, like

773
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 2: many of these guys, he's got all of this money

774
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 2: and got a reasonable age, and then he's like, what

775
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 2: do I enjoy? And then he's realized he enjoys nothing.

776
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 2: I personally am a barbecue guy. I have never seen

777
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: a man less interested in cooking in my life. Sweet

778
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 2: baby raised sweet.

779
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: He loves to smoke those meats, though, And there's nothing.

780
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 2: Wrong with a cheap record with some sweet baby rays.

781
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 2: If you're feeling lazy, we've all done it. It took

782
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: six hours. You're not lazy enough, not so lazy you

783
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 2: wouldn't You don't want to go to the store. And

784
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:03,760
Speaker 2: also he got a big green egg he got there's

785
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 2: nothing wrong with the big green egg. But you know what,

786
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: if you got all this money, you can get yourself

787
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: a really interesting stick burner. You gotta look up pit.

788
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 3: You could buy Nashville.

789
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,399
Speaker 2: You could go and get a Bits and Spits out

790
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: of Texas. That's where I get my girl from beautiful

791
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 2: Steel Beast coy over there put it together. Really don't

792
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 2: want to look at the politics there. Just realized as

793
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: they said that never looked at it. Please if it's bad,

794
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 2: don't tweet it him. But also he doesn't enjoy anything.

795
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 2: None of these people do. And so yeah, he's just

796
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 2: like I've seen clips of the Rogan thing, and he

797
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 2: just seems he seems as bad as Elon Muy. He

798
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: seems just like his like another day with my billions.

799
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 1: A detail I think is notable has been stuck in

800
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: my head ever since I read it. It was a

801
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: Wall Street journal piece kind of tied to this rebuff

802
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: of fact checking. They had a detail right at the

803
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: end that I think in maybe like November of last year,

804
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg had had gone through some sort of knee

805
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: surgery because he pulled something relating to MMA and made

806
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: a Facebook post about it, being like, here's me at

807
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: my knee surgery. And I guess the post didn't do well,

808
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: and so he freaked out and messaged his team being like,

809
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: why isn't my post doing well? Turns out it was

810
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: because it was being suppressed due to Facebook policies on

811
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 1: potential medical misinformation, And I don't know, seems fairly notable.

812
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: But right before Zuck decides to roll back all of

813
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 1: these policies limiting the reach of certain posts, his own

814
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 1: knee Facebook post gets limited.

815
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 2: Well. I love about that first of all, other than

816
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 2: the lack of post is sparit and this pathetic yeah

817
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 2: post better, but also post harder. He actually ran into

818
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 2: a problem of Facebook that people complain about, which is

819
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 2: that I don't seem to distribute my post to everyone.

820
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: It seems to get stopped somehow. But instead of being

821
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 2: like maybe that's a problem with the platform's like why

822
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 2: are people not looking up my knees enough?

823
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 3: And he knew he knew it was his platform.

824
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: He knew it was his own platforms, and they were like,

825
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: fix it for my thing. And it's a similar thing

826
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: that Elon Musk has done with Twitter to where he

827
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: was like, well, people aren't seeing my tweets enough, so

828
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: we're gonna need to put my tweets in everybody's feed always.

829
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 2: And it's itald I would do this. I mean it

830
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 2: just to be clear, like immediately right now, like and

831
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 2: why because I love people looking at me. But it's

832
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 2: so much sadder if you have all the money in

833
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: the world and you could actually make people look at you,

834
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 2: and you could go and like see anyone. You have

835
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: enough money that foreseeably anyone would meet with you. You

836
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 2: might have to pay someone, but you could meet everyone probably.

837
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 2: But I was just shocked, even in the clips I

838
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 2: saw of how like petulant, he seems like he doesn't

839
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 2: like it's not like he's like finally the attention's like ah,

840
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: he's like.

841
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 3: Resent because because Baga is anger. Sure, sure, that's the

842
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 3: whole that's the whole stait.

843
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 2: He didn't feel like he was leaning into it, though

844
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 2: he felt like there was a man pissed off.

845
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: I think it makes sense if you think about it historically,

846
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 1: because Zuck went on this huge apology tour after the

847
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen election and also with Cambridge Analytica. Stuff happened.

848
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: He was for years just like a political punching bag,

849
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: and he put himself up for it. He went before Congress,

850
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: he went and apologized to a bunch of parents.

851
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 2: Recently, he did this whole like very reasonable him.

852
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, very I mean, but like in the mind of

853
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: someone who is the head of a company, that might

854
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: seem like you really have gone through the ringer, and

855
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: yet people still continue to be mad at you no

856
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: matter what you do.

857
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 3: Actually, the apology demanded in Congress was by Josh Holly,

858
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 3: who's now his bff. It's it's all just sicko pon sick.

859
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 2: And it's now I'm thinking about sund up Ashy, Probably

860
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 2: not Sundar or Satch in the Della. I think Saching

861
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: the Della might from Microsoft, might adjust and become the

862
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 2: nice CEO, or he will find far more specific ways

863
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 2: to do it that will allow him to get away

864
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 2: with them. But it really is. It's going to be

865
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 2: interesting seeing the people who turn their nose up at

866
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 2: Facebook now because right now I can't delete my Instagram.

867
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: It's the only way I speak to like eleven people,

868
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 2: and there are people only interact on it. But if

869
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 2: that's your only business model, that's not great.

870
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 3: But but that goes back to Musk. My presumption, besides

871
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 3: it being a bad investment, was he was ruining in

872
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 3: it and people would leave it. He has, people have

873
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 3: left it. It doesn't matter to him. It doesn't matter.

874
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: I think Facebook masters uk, I actually do. I think

875
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: I think he is. He's not obsessed with it because

876
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 2: that would involve him like looking at it for more

877
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 2: than two seconds. But no, actually, maybe i'd take this back.

878
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: He might not care if you look at it now.

879
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: I guess no, It's just it looks like shit and

880
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: it doesn't really.

881
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 3: Because what did he care about the stupid goggles? Yeah? Right,

882
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 3: and now he cares about it? And what Here's one

883
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 3: of the funny things about Meta is that I think

884
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 3: that they're a leader in ai. Jon Lacun, who's there

885
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 3: is one of the well, he's one of the more

886
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 3: I think rational people around it. He's not a doomster,

887
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 3: he's not full of all that crap.

888
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 2: NOI argues with Elon Musk and Gary Malcus all day.

889
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 3: That's God's work?

890
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 2: Is it?

891
00:42:59,320 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 3: Where is it.

892
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 2: I'm going to get him on here just to call

893
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 2: him Yan Lacum, but I think he'll kill me. But no,

894
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 2: so then leaders same leaders.

895
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 3: A AI, he's still but he is still doing the

896
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 3: the goggle crap. Yeah, you know ar and VR. He

897
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 3: got bored with Facebook a long time ago, So.

898
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 2: With with that, I agree. I think he might love

899
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,919
Speaker 2: the financial entity known as Meta, though I think he's

900
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 2: like really attached to just the numbers because they've always

901
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 2: been from the very early days of jan Olivan and

902
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: Naomi gLite and Alex Schultz, they've always been like growth pigs.

903
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 2: They love they were written off.

904
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 3: Remember it wasn't that long ago. All Facebook's over. Meta

905
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 3: is over.

906
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 2: It's just a maskets never did that.

907
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well they did for a little while. They

908
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 3: did for a while, and then it's it's been a

909
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 3: hell of a story.

910
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: Now it's meta. It's the future of the web. We're

911
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: onto webs seventy five.

912
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: We're onto web four point five. And this is when

913
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 2: it gets more racist.

914
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, the legs are racist legs, but I don't forget.

915
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 3: In the early day, as a print Malius Maleficarum came out,

916
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 3: which was the guide to burning witches that killed lots

917
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 3: of people, and it was Print's fault. So maybe this

918
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 3: is just a phase for want until we have institutions

919
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 3: that finally bring us quality. Same thing happened, honest to God,

920
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 3: with print. That's a plug from my book, the Gutenberg

921
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 3: parentheses now out, you could do it. I write about

922
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 3: this right, and I think that we're at a stage

923
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 3: where the scale of speech today is not cannot be

924
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 3: handled by the institutions we have. When with print came,

925
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 3: the institutions of editing and publishing were invented for that

926
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 3: purpose because nobody knew what was made on this press.

927
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 3: It had no providence. Anybody can make this credit.

928
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 2: So are you suggesting it would be a private market

929
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 2: effect rather than the governmental one.

930
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 3: I'm suggesting it's institutional, and institutions.

931
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 2: Can be either, right, So I think I think it's possible,

932
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: and I think that I actually think it's very difficult,

933
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: but not as hard as people think to destroy Meta

934
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: in that it would take someone with enough money and

935
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,879
Speaker 2: enough moments like Blue Sky's growth came from a moment

936
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 2: where people went, let's check out what's on x Ohdroy

937
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: per forty two is threatening to kill me? And that

938
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: is somehow my suggested from the algorithm, and he DM

939
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 2: me as well. I think that person will kill me though,

940
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 2: And then people went, I don't want to fucking be there.

941
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: I don't want to be associated with this. I think

942
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 2: with meta if depending on how bad the guardrails are

943
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: pulled off, because we really don't know yet, it's going

944
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: to take a little time, I think people will just

945
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 2: be like, this platform already sucks. I won't look at anything.

946
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: And that's the real question. Do they go nowhere? I'm

947
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 2: really curious about the TikTok ban. It might we might

948
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 2: find out.

949
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 3: Well.

950
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,280
Speaker 1: I think you're right on Meta, perhaps in some US circles,

951
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: But I think the question when it comes to something

952
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: like Facebook is what ends up happening to internationally using

953
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: the growth Facebook is the Internet?

954
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's actually that is actually genuinely worrying because

955
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 2: the destruction of the content. I know content moderation is

956
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 2: still there, but the very clearly lacks approach they're going

957
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,919
Speaker 2: to use now is going to hit the global South

958
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 2: so much more, and it's going to hit people that

959
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 2: are more subject to disinformation and misinformation.

960
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 1: And I think it's worth noting that while like a

961
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: lot of studies have shown the jury's a bit out

962
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: on whether fact checking works or not. It does in

963
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: some cases, but for most, like politically charged things, it

964
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: just makes people dig their heels and more. The one

965
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: thing I think is undercovered, or I guess underemphasized, is

966
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: fact checking's ability to limit reach of misformation. Like, sure,

967
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 1: it's not going to saying like, yeah, I posted misinformation

968
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: and saying on my post your post is misinformation probably

969
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: isn't going to change my view, but it will potentially

970
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: have an impact on the twenty people that might have

971
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: seen that and fallen into that.

972
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 2: Rat And the thing is, and I think it was

973
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:01,280
Speaker 2: someone from foreig formte the point that metis fact checking

974
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 2: wasn't great. Certainly, I was.

975
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 3: There at the beginning. After the twenty sixteen I raised

976
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 3: a bunch of money from Facebook, gave it away to

977
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 3: places like Data in Society and another good folks for

978
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,359
Speaker 3: doing lots of work on what as Joe Burnstein has

979
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 3: since called big disinfo. And I was watching as they

980
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 3: were trying to build their fact checking structure, and it

981
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 3: was a clusterfuck from the beginning. They had to well,

982
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 3: we can't do this. We can't make judgments. Everybody's a

983
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 3: frightened of judgment. So they had to go to the

984
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 3: fact checking organization. Imagine their fun conventions they have, and

985
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 3: you've got to verify who's a good fact checker. And

986
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 3: then that group wouldn't verify ABC News. So then Facebook

987
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 3: had a fit about that, And so it was routing

988
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 3: around and around is who's allowed to be a fact checker?

989
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 3: Right from the very beginning, that's what it was. And

990
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 3: then there's debate to how to.

991
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 2: Other scale that to billions of people.

992
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 3: Exactly in all kinds of cultures and languge. And so

993
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 3: I'm not I'm not against fact checking. I'm not against facts,

994
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 3: but facts, to my mind, are not the problem.

995
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 2: And I think the problem soory that Jeff just got

996
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 2: sent five dollars from the fact organization on his phone

997
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 2: that they sent figure. And you see when you said

998
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: I was there at the beginning, I had to stop

999
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 2: myself being like.

1000
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 1: Of time, that's me every week on this week in

1001
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: Google I'm black and white TV.

1002
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's I think the bigger thing is I'm

1003
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 2: more worried about the ramifications of this attitude, because they

1004
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 2: already were pretty lax and in the global self in

1005
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 2: the rest of the world that even there's even there's

1006
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:49,760
Speaker 2: less media that understands those language, the languages even Jesus,

1007
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 2: but also less people in the Western world, which matter

1008
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 2: is arguably more scared about with the media, and I

1009
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: think as well. The other thing I really haven't seen

1010
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 2: talked about is META already limiting traffic on on journalism.

1011
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 2: Do you think that they're gonna increase the sharing decrease it?

1012
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: Well, I believe that they said they're no longer going

1013
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: to limit the reach of like civix related content, which

1014
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: I think I took to mean the political news. I

1015
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 1: don't know whether that will apply to all journalism.

1016
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: That is such a youth miss or civics related, civic related.

1017
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 2: So they will allow the influences they.

1018
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,760
Speaker 3: Like, but probably not links.

1019
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: Yes, well, they will allow links, but they won't they'll

1020
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 2: depress them.

1021
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, allowed them, well versus Canada, where of

1022
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 3: course they're not allowed. Yes, uh. And I think I

1023
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,919
Speaker 3: think Meta was praying that the Canada like bill would

1024
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 3: have would have passed in California because they said that

1025
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 3: they would eliminate news in California, and I think that

1026
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 3: would have been an open door screw it. Let's eliminate

1027
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 3: it in the US. Let's eliminate it everywhere. And that

1028
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 3: would have been easier for them puppies, parties and uh,

1029
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 3: pedophiles and uh, what's another p word for bad people.

1030
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 2: Fiery is going to stop making TV shows. It's just

1031
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 2: it's frustrating and it's only going to push people towards

1032
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 2: blue sky. But it's also I think a real inflection

1033
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 2: point for legacy media as well.

1034
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 3: So there was a story in legacy media is dead.

1035
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 2: Oh, I know. So Jeff Jarvis over here a big

1036
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 2: fan of the Times in the Post. You actually, I

1037
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 2: like he does this thing where it's hashtag hashtag broken

1038
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 2: posts and broken times, broken times, but good times. You've

1039
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:23,919
Speaker 2: also put in a bit.

1040
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 3: A rare moment when they do well.

1041
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 2: Yes, he's got to give it the other day they did,

1042
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 2: But that's I think that those publications are more threat

1043
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 2: from this than people realize. Because Sevenpore had a story saying,

1044
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 2: I think it's today for its media. So I assume

1045
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 2: mister Tani next Zani. He that story said that the

1046
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: Post went from having like twenty million unique monthly visitors

1047
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 2: to like two point five to three in twenty twenty

1048
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 2: one to two point five to three and twenty twenty four.

1049
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 2: Jeff is astounded. I was too wow, and Scar, a

1050
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 2: friend of the show, made the good.

1051
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: Point eight has about three million months.

1052
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 2: I think if the Post hoped you get late, that

1053
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 2: would probably be We used.

1054
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 3: To have that as a business bottel. We used to

1055
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 3: have personals and newspapers before you were born.

1056
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 2: And that's what they took from us.

1057
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 3: That's all we had. Feel sorry for us old horny people.

1058
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: Was submitting a single sentence to the Washington Post.

1059
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: My new favorite quote of.

1060
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: Feel sorry for us old horny people.

1061
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like last week was already apologizing for the

1062
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 2: amount of times people talked about horny checks and stuff.

1063
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:36,240
Speaker 2: Well we're back, folks. It's just crazy. But I think

1064
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 2: it's these large publications have been so used to social

1065
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 2: traffic and they've not been working out what the hell

1066
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 2: to do with it for a while.

1067
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: Well, a lot of them are betting that getting checks

1068
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 1: from AI companies could soften the blow, which I don't

1069
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: think is going to change much.

1070
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: I mean, you only get one of those as well.

1071
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 1: I mean they're supposed to get one a year or

1072
00:51:58,360 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: something like that.

1073
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 2: I think it burns five billions.

1074
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 1: Dash Meredith had. I think their numbers are public, and

1075
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: if you do the math, it equals up to like

1076
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: one percent or less than one percent of their yearly revenue.

1077
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: Take it and then I just don't. I think it's

1078
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: a terrible trade and it's the same sort of mistake

1079
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: these companies made.

1080
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 3: It screws the rest of all media, and it's just

1081
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 3: the moguls get their bags of money, but ed here

1082
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 3: it gets nothing from open Ai.

1083
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would love to sell everything words wise to

1084
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 2: Sam Olman. You just have to text me back. Sam.

1085
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:33,399
Speaker 2: I've been texting you. I have not heard back, and

1086
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: I'm not sure why. I simply asked you a question.

1087
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 2: Come on, come on man, mister open Aye, I need

1088
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 2: you on my show. I won't hurt you much, not

1089
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 2: physically but emotionally.

1090
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: Just six texts unanswered. We come on, you coward.

1091
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 2: We are going to be crying, both of us. I

1092
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 2: will start crying and you will finish crying. Mister Altman,

1093
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 2: these deals, I assume that the Washington Post isn't getting

1094
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 2: say one hundred and seventy five million dollars a year,

1095
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 2: which is what their revenue is. They probably getting like

1096
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 2: twenty thirty. I just tried to look it up. I

1097
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 2: could not find it from this open aideal. I think

1098
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 2: it was for the AI powered search. Is that a

1099
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 2: content deal with them or did they out sign one.

1100
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 1: Yet I'm not sure. So what I understand is the

1101
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: two big media deals that we have like public numbers

1102
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: on as far as the amount it equals up to,

1103
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:39,240
Speaker 1: like a single percentage point or less of their overall

1104
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: revenue when you calculate it like they are getting they

1105
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 1: are getting pennies.

1106
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 3: Oh, they're not good at business, otherwise they wouldn't be

1107
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 3: in such terrible shape right now. They screwed up the Internet,

1108
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 3: they missed the boat. They didn't know what they were doing.

1109
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 3: They cry and try to get protectionist legislation, and so

1110
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 3: now they cry and try to get money out of

1111
00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 3: open AI and it's not a business model.

1112
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 2: Well, Jeff, this is actually one of the many reasons

1113
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 2: of what did you want? Can you kind of explain

1114
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 2: what you just said? So what is it that they missed?

1115
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 2: What is it that they should have done differently?

1116
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 3: So let's not just make that third person. I'll make

1117
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 3: that first person too, because I worked for the Conte

1118
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 3: and ast in one advance and I was there as

1119
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 3: it was going on, and.

1120
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:18,720
Speaker 2: What was it in this case the Internet.

1121
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,399
Speaker 3: I started at Advance in ninety four, just a month

1122
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 3: after the browser came out, right right, So the company

1123
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:27,439
Speaker 3: was debating, Okay, now we're going to uncle Jeff time.

1124
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 1: I'm sad.

1125
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,319
Speaker 2: That was the fact when the browser was a room

1126
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 2: sized machine that the website.

1127
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 3: Yes, so we were debating whether to put our content

1128
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 3: onto Prodigy or AOL or this new.

1129
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 2: Web point on the portals themselves when it was just

1130
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 2: like one website.

1131
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 3: So I worked for Steve newhous Is now the chairman

1132
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:54,879
Speaker 3: of Advance and conte and asked, and he's really, really smart,

1133
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 3: and he's the one who taught me about interactivity and community,

1134
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 3: and he knew that print content was not valuable online.

1135
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,319
Speaker 3: But every other publisher thought their great value was in

1136
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 3: repurposing their print content to online and trying to license

1137
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 3: it and get money for it and sell it. And

1138
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 3: they didn't understand to the portals, to the portals and

1139
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 3: then eventually and pay walls. They didn't understand that the

1140
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 3: essence of the Internet is conversation and community and collaboration

1141
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 3: and creativity. That's the last of my literations and so

1142
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:31,399
Speaker 3: they can insisted to just do what they'd always done,

1143
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:33,959
Speaker 3: subscription money and add money. And as they add money

1144
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 3: went down because the number of a veils went way

1145
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 3: sky high of advertising. Then, as happens when supply goes up,

1146
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,759
Speaker 3: price goes down. So then they tried to put it

1147
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 3: all behind the pay wall and they're not all the

1148
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 3: New York Times, and they can't do that. And they

1149
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 3: never saw I think, what the essence of the Internet is.

1150
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 3: And so now they're still in mass media mind. They're

1151
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 3: still in we have to please everybody while they go

1152
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 3: piss off everybody that they have done what they have done.

1153
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 3: I think that they should have seen themselves that they

1154
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 3: could have started Reddit, they could have started AOL, they

1155
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 3: could have started these things.

1156
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:15,720
Speaker 2: I was part of this funded journalism, like yeah, yeah.

1157
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 1: You're talking about something like Kinja, the commenting uh reddit

1158
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 1: like commenting system.

1159
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 3: Und I was there at the beginning of that too.

1160
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. Conversations the first.

1161
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 3: Well, Nick Detton first hated. I said he had put

1162
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,240
Speaker 3: comments on on Gawker. So no, I hate comments. They're awful,

1163
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 3: that's true, they are, actually they're not. But but at

1164
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 3: one point he became a believer because he was going

1165
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 3: to do it nixt way, and that became Kinja, that

1166
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:44,439
Speaker 3: became everything else.

1167
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 2: I think my big thing is that one publication owning Reddit.

1168
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 2: Do you think that that makes like, how would like

1169
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 2: something like Reddit? Because you're saying that they should have

1170
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 2: seen conversations?

1171
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 3: Is the thing?

1172
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 2: Does that mean a social network? Like what? Because what

1173
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 2: you're just describing is a company that sells journalism, and

1174
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 2: you're like, the thing we will sell is not journalism.

1175
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:08,800
Speaker 3: Well, in fact, by old boss Steve Newhouse is the

1176
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 3: one who bought red it.

1177
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 2: He wanted to buy yeah, but he ran it like shit,

1178
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 2: no he didn't.

1179
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 3: It's now worth a fortune and up.

1180
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: Until recently he ran election yep, but well it did it.

1181
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 2: Well, now it doesn't.

1182
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 3: It's worth a fortune now right.

1183
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 2: Uh.

1184
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 3: There was also a horrible clusterfuck in the industry called

1185
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 3: the New Century Network, and the newspaper industry got together

1186
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 3: the top twelve companies and we were going to start

1187
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 3: a way to sign into all newspapers across the country

1188
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 3: at once and subscribe at once and sell adworks across

1189
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 3: and it could have been a real thing.

1190
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 2: Right.

1191
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 3: This is the same time that Yahoo's pretty up news

1192
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 3: and AOL's pretty up. They could have done this. What

1193
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 3: stopped them? So half the company along came Kleiner Perkins

1194
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 3: and they said, this is a good idea. We want

1195
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 3: to invest in this. We want to make this scale

1196
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 3: and be big. Half the newspaper publishers said, how dare

1197
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 3: you you can get a piece of our business? No,

1198
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 3: absolutely not, because we're too valuable. You're just a PENMANI line.

1199
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 2: So it seems like that is the shit problem.

1200
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 3: None of it's male CEOs again, so I don't like Jensen.

1201
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 2: Huang very much, but one of his things he would

1202
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 2: say is like, always act like you're going out of business.

1203
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 2: I'm surprised more newspapers don't do that for more obvious reasons.

1204
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 2: But I don't know if I agree with you about

1205
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 2: the conversation pop. I don't actually think doing right now.

1206
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 2: I know, but like this isn't how you run a newspaper.

1207
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, i'd agree, And I think there needs to be

1208
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: a way to be able to make news and journalism profitable,

1209
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: and that doesn't exist at all scales and for all companies.

1210
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 2: Doesn't exist at scale. I think might be the problem.

1211
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 3: Scales the problem. Yeah, scale before the mechanization and industrialization

1212
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 3: to print poor. Paris has heard me say this one

1213
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 3: hundred times. In the mid eighteen fifties, the average circulation

1214
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 3: of a daily newspaper in the United States was four thousand. Interesting,

1215
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 3: it was only with a mechanization distributed because you had

1216
00:58:58,160 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 3: to pull with the human muscle.

1217
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 2: So you have a local printing press right to print local,

1218
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 2: and you can only print so many and that distribution

1219
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 2: of four thousand people a small town or something, or even.

1220
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 3: In New York and New York in nineteen hundred. By

1221
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 3: this time you had a half century of the steam

1222
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 3: powered press, and you had the linotype, and you had

1223
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 3: other things come in. Then you had scale come up.

1224
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 3: But still in New York City, including Brooklyn, in nineteen hundred,

1225
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 3: there were forty six daily newspapers hu That is to

1226
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 3: say that they spoke at a different and human scale.

1227
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 3: Broadcast killed all that. Broadcast came along, and you had

1228
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 3: one or maybe two papers in a town, and they

1229
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 3: thought they could serve everybody. They thought that scale was

1230
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 3: the only goal. That we are the mass. It's growth,

1231
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 3: and it was a lie. People realize pretty soon this

1232
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 3: doesn't speak to me.

1233
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 2: It's because none of these people, like many businesses in

1234
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 2: tech as well are capable of saying we've grown enough

1235
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 2: if there is a The Athletic was better as an

1236
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 2: independent from the Times. But I forget you said this, Eliot.

1237
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 2: It's like, the reason The Times is picking up this

1238
00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 2: stuff is because of The Times is actual brand. Maybe

1239
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 2: in case it the Times, this brand is like falling apart,

1240
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:06,240
Speaker 2: and it sucks because the actual lessons recently that I've

1241
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 2: seen in media are fairly straightforward. It's what if we

1242
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 2: had interesting people doing unique stuff. What if we then

1243
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 2: had them cover something that happened right, and then they'd

1244
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 2: write it down some sort of like analysis I think

1245
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 2: I'd call it, and then at the end of it

1246
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 2: you'd be like, Wow, I know who this person was.

1247
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 2: I know who this person and I heard them talk

1248
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 2: and I like their voice. The last week at CES

1249
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 2: twenty people interviewed I'm not just doing a thing about me,

1250
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 2: don't worry. But the thing I got through it is

1251
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 2: there are so many reporters who are so much more

1252
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 2: charming than their bylines. And it's not a failure of

1253
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 2: their writing. It's a failure of the outlets. It's a

1254
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 2: failure of the form it used to be. At least.

1255
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 2: I don't know much about the history of media, but

1256
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 2: I remember there being a lot more opinion people in

1257
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 2: tech yet Eric Bendroff here, Arthur Brayer think is still around.

1258
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 2: But you had, like David Pogan, these people. I'm not

1259
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 2: saying that they were perfect. In fact, I have some

1260
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 2: views about some of the specifically m there was still

1261
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 2: something to the popularity of having a real voice and

1262
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 2: having a real person and that person being white, and you,

1263
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 2: as a news out there were like shit, I got

1264
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 2: to keep these names and I got to make sure

1265
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 2: they can talk. And the times it's like, well, who

1266
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 2: do we do for that? Who is the most insane person?

1267
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 2: Do we have a transphob Oh, don't worry, we have

1268
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 2: a whole day based those You have any insane warhawks?

1269
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 3: Oh?

1270
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:24,439
Speaker 2: Please? That's the other database that we spent fifty million

1271
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 2: dollars on. We had to lay off a few people.

1272
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 2: We needed to know the people who would put the

1273
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 2: most troops in California Paris.

1274
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 3: Let me ask you something. The information is really good.

1275
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 3: I pay for it same discount, though, I'm we had

1276
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 3: to say, and it works as a business, Yes, now

1277
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:48,439
Speaker 3: it works because there's reporting like yours that's valuable, that

1278
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 3: is specialized and covers technology and the society and business

1279
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 3: around it. Really, well, why is there not an the

1280
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 3: information in areas on the same model? Political one might say,

1281
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 3: is that political's crap.

1282
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 2: Politico is just conservative news.

1283
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 3: Yeah it's awful, right, but heretically it should be the

1284
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 3: information of politics, but it's not. I can't think of

1285
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 3: any the information of.

1286
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 1: I think it's I think the answer is a little

1287
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 1: multifaceted one. I think when Jessica Lesson, our founder, she

1288
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: used to work at the Wall Street Journal, founded The

1289
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 1: Information a bit over a decade ago, everyone thought she

1290
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 1: was crazy, like there's a bunch of very funny to

1291
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 1: read now blogs from Business Insider being like this crazy

1292
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 1: lady wants you to pay a couple hundred dollars for

1293
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: a subscription to a website with news on it. Who

1294
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 1: would ever do that? And I think that it took

1295
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 1: a while for people in the media industry to come

1296
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 1: around the idea of a truly hard paywall and creating

1297
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 1: content that is worth paying for and sticking by that.

1298
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 1: I also think it's that's because there are obvious trade offs.

1299
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 1: The reach of the information is much smaller than a

1300
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 1: Politico because you can't get around our paywalls, and it

1301
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 1: doesn't need to be huge, and it doesn't need to

1302
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 1: be huge because it is self sustaining.

1303
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 2: I also think there's another detail. She founded this in

1304
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen. At the end of twenty thirteen, so everyone

1305
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 2: was still high on the hog as far as ads,

1306
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 2: when the ads industry had not, it hadn't become as difficult. Also,

1307
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 2: I say this with no offense to your Paris. Jessica

1308
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 2: is also well known as being well connected with the

1309
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:32,760
Speaker 2: Zuckerbergs and also well known for being and there are

1310
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 2: times with the information where the tone shifts and it

1311
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 2: is a little more rah rah. I think is the

1312
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 2: fair thing. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing.

1313
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 3: Maybe just charitable.

1314
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 2: No, the podcast I'm thinking of it.

1315
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 1: Oh, the podcast is a Jessica Lesson podcast.

1316
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:50,720
Speaker 2: Also, it's not a report. Some of the ways that

1317
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 2: AI things are framed are not necessarily critical. Not certainly

1318
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 2: every outlet has biased. I'm also I cite the information

1319
01:03:57,760 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 2: all the time.

1320
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 1: I think that there's a bit of a difference between

1321
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 1: some of our newsletters or podcasts or opinion stuff versus reporting.

1322
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:07,080
Speaker 2: But agreed, you've got some of the best, like Anissa Goez.

1323
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have fantastic people to do fantastic work. And

1324
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 1: I think part of what you're getting at here with

1325
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 1: comments with Jeska is also what made this work is

1326
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 1: she had like it was self funded. She didn't need

1327
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 1: to take on venture capital to start it, and that

1328
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 1: meant that it could grow at its own pace versus

1329
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 1: I have worked at a total of three places in

1330
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 1: my about a decade of a journalism career. The first

1331
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 1: two I got laid off from. The first one was well,

1332
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 1: I guess other places. The first two staff jobs I

1333
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 1: had I got laid off from. One was a place

1334
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: called The Outline that raised venture capital and then quickly

1335
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 1: ran out of it because it spent too much money

1336
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 1: on silly things.

1337
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 2: Favorite game found an outlet, lose the money, walke away.

1338
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 1: You know it's a great Uh, we'll see listen as

1339
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 1: long as people get paid. And the other one was Wired,

1340
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:03,880
Speaker 1: which is part of Conde Nast, which was going through

1341
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 1: its own growing pains because it has a bunch of

1342
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:10,520
Speaker 1: print publications and is largely supported by sabridizing always fucking

1343
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:11,120
Speaker 1: growth pain.

1344
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 2: It's just they must be bigger and the best work

1345
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 2: like one of the things that has made the rise

1346
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 2: of newsletters happen, in my opinion, and indeed this show,

1347
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:23,360
Speaker 2: is that people are kind of tired of the standard

1348
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 2: big box thing. They're tired of these kind of every

1349
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 2: major publication really drains the life out of and I

1350
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 2: don't I think even smaller publications do. They standardize the copy.

1351
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 2: And I realize you can't have everyone beer as being

1352
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 2: a sloppy blog worm like me, but it feels like

1353
01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:42,920
Speaker 2: the publications really investing in allowing the person behind the

1354
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:45,280
Speaker 2: thing to talk are doing well. And gadget we had

1355
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 2: a tounnel them on the show and they've done a

1356
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 2: really bloody good job in their coverage and in their

1357
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:51,240
Speaker 2: podcast actually bringing the personality out. You got Sherlin Low,

1358
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 2: You've got the Bingja Hardawa, You've got Carrissa Bell, and

1359
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:57,200
Speaker 2: these people are fun and varied, indifferent, and I wish

1360
01:05:57,320 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 2: that there was more of that in journalism. But I

1361
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:01,800
Speaker 2: also think it's why people turning away from legacy media.

1362
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 3: Let me ask you another question, do you yourself or

1363
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:08,560
Speaker 3: do you ever hear any colleagues say I'm glad I

1364
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 3: have a salary, but I wish I had a little

1365
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 3: more fame or a little more impact or a little

1366
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 3: more presence.

1367
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't think of any examples, but I.

1368
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:21,919
Speaker 2: Or even like Piz when I.

1369
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 1: I'll give you this when I was deciding whether or

1370
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:25,960
Speaker 1: not to go to the Information versus a couple of

1371
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:27,880
Speaker 1: other places. I called it my mentor at the time,

1372
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, if I go to the information, well,

1373
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 1: I like fade away into obscurity behind the paywall. It's

1374
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:34,960
Speaker 1: a terrible career move. And he was like, rightfully, he

1375
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 1: was like, Paris, there are two groups of people that

1376
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 1: you care about reading your work, if we're being honest,

1377
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:41,360
Speaker 1: one is other journalists and the other people that work

1378
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 1: in tech. Both of those groups subscribed to the information,

1379
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 1: You're going to be fine. And I think that that

1380
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 1: is the way that a lot of people at our.

1381
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 2: I don't know if I love that. Listen.

1382
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 1: It's a practical way of thinking about it.

1383
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:56,080
Speaker 2: A careerism. Yeah, yes, careers feel like you do. I

1384
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 2: am actually pushing back. I think you actually give a

1385
01:06:58,160 --> 01:06:59,920
Speaker 2: big shit about your readers.

1386
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 1: I do give a huge ship about my readers.

1387
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 2: Just want to make sure that the pigs on ready

1388
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:08,560
Speaker 2: don't come and argue with you about because it doesn't

1389
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:09,920
Speaker 2: seem like that's your point.

1390
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, my I care a lot about my readers

1391
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 1: and things like that. But part of the thing, I guess,

1392
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 1: if you're talking about larger career moves wise like those

1393
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 1: are the two groups you need to think about. Potential

1394
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:26,520
Speaker 1: sources and potential like colleagues and the work. Yes, good doing,

1395
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 1: good work. If part of my calculation for going to

1396
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 1: a place like the Information is despite the limits of

1397
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:40,560
Speaker 1: being behind a hard paywall, it's one of the few

1398
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 1: places I think that exist in media still where I

1399
01:07:43,080 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 1: get to just do like I spent a month on

1400
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 1: that sniffy story. I spent a month on most of

1401
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:47,640
Speaker 1: my stories.

1402
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 2: That is cool and read is a very focused My.

1403
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:53,040
Speaker 1: Readers are very focused.

1404
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 2: They read.

1405
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 1: We have an incredible like read through rate, and it

1406
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, that's really cool, actually quite nice to

1407
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:01,440
Speaker 1: be able to to be at a place where you

1408
01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 1: can do that sort of focus. But I don't think

1409
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:06,560
Speaker 1: that that exists. That exists infrequently at scale.

1410
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 2: I think at scale as well, you have the problem

1411
01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:10,800
Speaker 2: of you do have those deep readers, but you also

1412
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:12,920
Speaker 2: have the people who saw the headline, they scroll down,

1413
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 2: they see a name, they're like they just hit retweet.

1414
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:19,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, let me ask you in your other life PR.

1415
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:19,800
Speaker 2: Right.

1416
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 3: So I talked to an executive at one of the

1417
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:25,639
Speaker 3: big tech companies and he said, how do we get

1418
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:27,639
Speaker 3: our message out at scale? I said, you don'te anymore?

1419
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 3: And then I talked to a guy who worked just

1420
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:32,599
Speaker 3: left a big PR company. I'll leave them most nameless

1421
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:35,759
Speaker 3: for now, and he said, oh, yeah, the PR industry

1422
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 3: is all about getting on tech meme and and where

1423
01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 3: you get the publications.

1424
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:43,040
Speaker 2: That's a guy. That's a guy who hasn't pitched anyone

1425
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 2: and fucking ever. So you ever hear a guy be

1426
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 2: like you canna be on tech? Mean, that's a person

1427
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,479
Speaker 2: who does not talk to journalists. I know it's important

1428
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,080
Speaker 2: for jendalists. I don't think it's that important.

1429
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 3: Are the clients is what I'm saying, Kinds don't give

1430
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:56,760
Speaker 3: a ship. That's what's That's where I'm going is is

1431
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:01,280
Speaker 3: where's the so? Where is what are they value? Now?

1432
01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 2: So what it is is like I actually got this

1433
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:05,519
Speaker 2: last week. It's like, what are your clients like? And

1434
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:08,600
Speaker 2: it's the smart clients. The money I take are the

1435
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:11,080
Speaker 2: ones that know they have a good story and also

1436
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 2: know they don't know how to get to journalists because

1437
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:15,800
Speaker 2: there's one thousand PR people per Do they need the

1438
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:20,040
Speaker 2: journalists still, Yes, absolutely they do because at the moment,

1439
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:22,439
Speaker 2: right now, there may be a lack of trust in

1440
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:26,240
Speaker 2: legacy media, but people still trust media in general. I

1441
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 2: bring up Steve from Gamers Nexus, million plus subscriber coffee

1442
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 2: Zilla on YouTube. Now, I'm not saying those that even

1443
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:35,439
Speaker 2: be PR targets, but Linus tech Tips absolutely would and

1444
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 2: indeed has worked with people I've worked with. People still

1445
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 2: need to get through, but the thing that has changed

1446
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 2: is there's a lot less journalists who are just willing

1447
01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:45,200
Speaker 2: to run anything unless it's for open AI. By the way,

1448
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:47,720
Speaker 2: I'm just going to do this. There is a two

1449
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:51,559
Speaker 2: tiered system within the media right now. And the reason

1450
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 2: we have Meta and the reason we have Elon Musk,

1451
01:09:54,360 --> 01:09:56,479
Speaker 2: and the reason we have these things is partially to

1452
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,800
Speaker 2: blame for the fact that startups actually really have to

1453
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:03,599
Speaker 2: p if they're worth. It's remarkable one of the reasons

1454
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 2: I have a fucking career in PR. And it's frustrating

1455
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:07,840
Speaker 2: because you'll be like, hey, I got a they do

1456
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 2: a really good thing, they make money like school, and

1457
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:13,559
Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, but yeah, but like did they raise

1458
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:15,599
Speaker 2: like more money though, and like I don't know if

1459
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:17,000
Speaker 2: I want to write it, but someone is just a

1460
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 2: good idea and then they will post an open AI

1461
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:22,599
Speaker 2: thing that is like a feature that my toaster has,

1462
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 2: and it's just And the problem is is that I

1463
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 2: understand when you're as these outlets somehow get bigger, but

1464
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:29,679
Speaker 2: they have less people. You have to do more stuff,

1465
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 2: so you just have to go, oh shit, what is

1466
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:33,719
Speaker 2: the public good? What does everyone want to know about?

1467
01:10:34,080 --> 01:10:36,920
Speaker 2: Open eye, anthropic what have you? And that makes sense.

1468
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:40,599
Speaker 2: But to your point, startups kind of need PR as

1469
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 2: much as they used to. Big tech also does too,

1470
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 2: because right now all of the big tech companies they're

1471
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 2: playing the same game, which is well, Donald Trump's in

1472
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:50,560
Speaker 2: the White House, and uh, the writer's winning. So I

1473
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:52,679
Speaker 2: don't give a shit about fuck. I'm just gonna say

1474
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:55,160
Speaker 2: whatever I want. And indeed, the two tid system I

1475
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:57,800
Speaker 2: talked about the reason that Sam Altman has been able

1476
01:10:57,840 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 2: to lie at scale and Elon Musk has been allowed

1477
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:02,599
Speaker 2: like a scale for ten years is because the system

1478
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:05,120
Speaker 2: that operates against these series A and I don't say

1479
01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:07,519
Speaker 2: this with any bitterness, by the way, everyone should be

1480
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:10,160
Speaker 2: held to this standard. Everyone with the media should have

1481
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 2: to prove themselves. But someone like Meta, someone like Tesla,

1482
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 2: they come along and say whatever the fuck they want

1483
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:17,800
Speaker 2: and it gets printed even to this day with the

1484
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 2: test the robot of them. So you're in this situation

1485
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:23,439
Speaker 2: where media relations, why don't skim journalous to cover stuff?

1486
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:27,760
Speaker 2: Is very important? And then there's the other problem, which

1487
01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:29,800
Speaker 2: is about fifteen years ago when I got into this job,

1488
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:32,920
Speaker 2: people started writing articles called media relations is dead. Why

1489
01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:35,680
Speaker 2: because talking to reporters all day and learning everything they do,

1490
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:37,439
Speaker 2: and know what you're talking about, what they're talking about,

1491
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 2: what's happened in the world, and then being able to

1492
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:40,439
Speaker 2: take that and put it into a smart thought including

1493
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:44,040
Speaker 2: the client. That's actually pretty difficult. And PR people are

1494
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:47,320
Speaker 2: lazy animals. They love to sit around and send emails

1495
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:50,320
Speaker 2: and write documents. They're about as functional as sandapieshay as.

1496
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 2: They're just meeting goers. If you're a PR person, I've

1497
01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:54,160
Speaker 2: been saying that. I've been saying that you need to

1498
01:11:54,240 --> 01:11:56,880
Speaker 2: change your ass for years, except now I have a microphone.

1499
01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:02,439
Speaker 2: I hope you're upset, long story, shrecked, get absolutely ragged, bodied, etc.

1500
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 2: You can talk about me on your podcast if anyone

1501
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:09,760
Speaker 2: would listen. But the point I'm making is PR is necessary,

1502
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:14,680
Speaker 2: but it's also killing itself and the biggest clients are

1503
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:17,680
Speaker 2: becoming so weird about it that they'll have PR. But

1504
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:20,040
Speaker 2: then like, why is the media not saying everything we

1505
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:23,960
Speaker 2: want them to say? And it's because the media doesn't

1506
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 2: just copy paste things. They may write down exactly what

1507
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:30,360
Speaker 2: you say with the bigger companies, but journalists have brains

1508
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 2: and we'll hear stuff now and go wait, what the

1509
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:34,120
Speaker 2: fuck does that mean? And even with open AI they're

1510
01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 2: finally learning it. It's just that when that happens, you're

1511
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,240
Speaker 2: going to need the media relations people. Except the PR

1512
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:42,680
Speaker 2: industry Go on Google, media relations is dead. They've been

1513
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:45,599
Speaker 2: killing them for fifteen years. It's hilarious. It's like the

1514
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:47,400
Speaker 2: one fun job in this industry.

1515
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 1: It's extremely easy to do bad PR and extremely hard

1516
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:52,200
Speaker 1: to do good PR.

1517
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:54,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are times when I get an email offering

1518
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:56,479
Speaker 3: me an interview and one time I just want to

1519
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:59,640
Speaker 3: take it, just to say so that afterwards the person says, well,

1520
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:01,759
Speaker 3: what's this audience? So he doesn't have any audience.

1521
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 2: The thing is that a twenty three year old who

1522
01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:07,920
Speaker 2: works seventeen hour days is going to get fired because

1523
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:11,719
Speaker 2: they're going to lose their sub lease on an eight person,

1524
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:13,240
Speaker 2: one bedroom.

1525
01:13:13,479 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 1: It's I probably got ten weird PR pitches that are

1526
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 1: completely unrelated to me while we've been sitting here.

1527
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 3: You still get them, even though I still get all

1528
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:22,679
Speaker 3: the time.

1529
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:25,080
Speaker 2: And I love the PR people who pitch me because

1530
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:28,559
Speaker 2: it's block people I do too, but so and that's

1531
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:30,280
Speaker 2: this is the weird things. While there's like this whole

1532
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:33,160
Speaker 2: PR industry just spams people that'd be making fun of

1533
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:36,240
Speaker 2: for like my entire career and getting in zero trouble

1534
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:40,280
Speaker 2: because they're all cowards. And it's just it's frustrating because

1535
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:43,360
Speaker 2: we're just describing industries run by people who don't understand

1536
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 2: the process, Like how do you run a good news

1537
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 2: out there? I don't know good news and make sure

1538
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:49,839
Speaker 2: that people making.

1539
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 3: Sure it has value in people's lives.

1540
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:54,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's this drain of personality from everything. The

1541
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:59,720
Speaker 2: information is fairly straightforward, but you have some specifics. You

1542
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:02,200
Speaker 2: have some who is it that emails me every day?

1543
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:07,760
Speaker 2: Pisses me off? Martin Piers, Yeah, yeah, but that's the thing.

1544
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:09,719
Speaker 1: It's a newsletter and.

1545
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:11,759
Speaker 2: He loves that's.

1546
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 1: Kind of his job to piss you off.

1547
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 2: I am actually saying this. I get pissed off with

1548
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:17,080
Speaker 2: it regularly. I read it every time.

1549
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:18,280
Speaker 1: Jeff gets pissed off.

1550
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:20,240
Speaker 3: I get mad at once.

1551
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 2: But that's the thing. At the very least, he fucking

1552
01:14:24,479 --> 01:14:27,320
Speaker 2: stands for something. Why would people go I don't know.

1553
01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:30,840
Speaker 2: Why would people go to influencers who don't necessarily run

1554
01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:33,719
Speaker 2: their facts very well or at all? And the answer

1555
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:34,719
Speaker 2: is because they can't.

1556
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:36,840
Speaker 3: I got a question for you. So you saw Lisa

1557
01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:40,240
Speaker 3: uh Ruben, not Lisa Ribbon, jenn Ribbon.

1558
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:45,080
Speaker 2: It's also my show. I'm kidding thing Jennifer Ruben.

1559
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:47,880
Speaker 3: Jennifer Rubin left the Washington Post right and she started

1560
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:49,360
Speaker 3: a new substack newsletter.

1561
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:49,880
Speaker 2: The Contrarian.

1562
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 3: The Contrarian? Oh god, what is it about Substack? How

1563
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:58,280
Speaker 3: does it that now it's textile? Is that we all

1564
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:02,360
Speaker 3: know that tech is but the Substack has its own

1565
01:15:02,479 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 3: Nazi yeah problems And why does everybody still go there?

1566
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:08,240
Speaker 2: I actually think it's the thing we've been talking about

1567
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:10,600
Speaker 2: that's just some legacy media shit. They're like, why do

1568
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:14,160
Speaker 2: people come to the newspaper only for Jennifer Ruben and

1569
01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 2: the series of bland right wing people that have found

1570
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 2: a way to pretend they're liberals, and they're like, well,

1571
01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:23,439
Speaker 2: why do people read the paper for me? Why they

1572
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:25,439
Speaker 2: read it? And the thing they hate about the media

1573
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:29,760
Speaker 2: right now is it's not contrarian enough, Like it's just

1574
01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:32,080
Speaker 2: this is exactly the kind of shit that the legacy

1575
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:34,880
Speaker 2: media institution would do. It's what happened in twenty twenty

1576
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:37,479
Speaker 2: one when The Atlantic had like eight different newsletters and

1577
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:42,720
Speaker 2: then didn't treat them any differently. Heart take Factory, but no, god,

1578
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 2: it's the Atlantic. It's luke warm take factory, cry baby shit.

1579
01:15:47,040 --> 01:15:51,280
Speaker 2: And it's or just like anti Palestine shit, which is

1580
01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:54,240
Speaker 2: disgusting anyway. Get we'll get to that on the other

1581
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:57,040
Speaker 2: show where everyone gets mad at me. But the point

1582
01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:00,000
Speaker 2: is it's just the same fucking wheel turning. It's people

1583
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:02,960
Speaker 2: going shit, what do people do? What are big now?

1584
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 2: What big newsletter they send those? What if we all

1585
01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:09,360
Speaker 2: got together and combined our audiences of people that barely

1586
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:11,680
Speaker 2: read us and do not look at the facts or

1587
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:13,760
Speaker 2: really care, but they like sharing it with their other

1588
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:17,519
Speaker 2: vacuous friends. Except make it DC, it's not going to

1589
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:18,439
Speaker 2: work very much.

1590
01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:20,960
Speaker 3: You are tired of subscription upon subscription upon subscription.

1591
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:24,200
Speaker 2: They've got like George Conway in there. They have George Conway.

1592
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:27,040
Speaker 2: I didn't even know. I didn't even know. I just

1593
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:30,439
Speaker 2: guessed the like it worse.

1594
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:35,680
Speaker 3: They have Andy Burrowitz. Oh fucking know.

1595
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:39,280
Speaker 2: I was not pro censorship before this show, but now

1596
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:42,280
Speaker 2: I am actually really bro I don't put any links

1597
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:44,479
Speaker 2: to anything if it keeps borrow Its out in my feed.

1598
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:47,800
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's the proper reaction. Oh my god,

1599
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:50,920
Speaker 2: I hate Andy Burrows but it's paris. I'm actually like,

1600
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:54,240
Speaker 2: really glad you were here specifically representing the information though

1601
01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:57,200
Speaker 2: having your own opinions, just being cliff legal disclaimer because

1602
01:16:57,200 --> 01:16:59,559
Speaker 2: you kind of I have my issues with how the

1603
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:02,840
Speaker 2: Information does business and some internal ones that I will

1604
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:08,840
Speaker 2: not read, but it's it still works. It works, and

1605
01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:11,840
Speaker 2: the journalism is like very very good. And Lisa god,

1606
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:13,439
Speaker 2: he's in another person I can't remember the name of

1607
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:15,840
Speaker 2: a link to it. In the episode No, it's they

1608
01:17:15,920 --> 01:17:20,559
Speaker 2: had this incredible story about nvideos like has people canceling orders,

1609
01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:24,439
Speaker 2: and Anissa is super young, yeah, like in her twenties,

1610
01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:26,280
Speaker 2: and she's just getting this shit all the time. She's

1611
01:17:26,280 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 2: had so much of it. The fact that you have

1612
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:33,240
Speaker 2: this happening is proof that this model works.

1613
01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:35,599
Speaker 1: And that I mean, it's proof that journalism can still

1614
01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:36,960
Speaker 1: exist and it sells.

1615
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:40,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and it sells and it matters, and the

1616
01:17:40,439 --> 01:17:43,640
Speaker 2: real people doing it matter. And it's frustrating because I

1617
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:46,960
Speaker 2: don't think anyone is learning this lesson very well.

1618
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:50,000
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of outlets are now trying to

1619
01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:52,439
Speaker 1: pivot to a more subscription heavy modeled. The Atlantic is

1620
01:17:52,479 --> 01:17:52,920
Speaker 1: one of them.

1621
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:56,719
Speaker 4: Live the Verge, I mean, possibly want to miss Alex Heath,

1622
01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:01,679
Speaker 4: fucking I'm such a bitch, But it's but the Verge

1623
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:03,519
Speaker 4: is actually the example I think of doing it wrong,

1624
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:05,880
Speaker 4: because the Verge is very much like, we're now going

1625
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:09,160
Speaker 4: to pay wall stuff you weren't paying for, and it's like, okay,

1626
01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:09,799
Speaker 4: well now.

1627
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:11,760
Speaker 2: The reader will be pissed off. And you have great

1628
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:13,640
Speaker 2: people like Kylie Robson, one of the best journalists in

1629
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:18,240
Speaker 2: the field, incredible and Misato as well too, incredible journalists.

1630
01:18:18,880 --> 01:18:22,879
Speaker 2: Paywalling them hurts them far more than I think they realized.

1631
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:26,320
Speaker 2: How about give make give them more money and then

1632
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:28,840
Speaker 2: let them write private stuff. Put the private stuff in

1633
01:18:28,880 --> 01:18:32,439
Speaker 2: the private make it worthwhile at least try. But no,

1634
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:34,680
Speaker 2: it's we're going to pay war what Tom, Tom Moore

1635
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:35,639
Speaker 2: and annx Heath.

1636
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:38,240
Speaker 1: Make it so that at least readers feel like if

1637
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:41,240
Speaker 1: they're paying, they're getting access to something new. Yeah, something

1638
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:44,000
Speaker 1: that they Yeah, it's a you are paying to access

1639
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:45,480
Speaker 1: something rather than being restricted.

1640
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:47,280
Speaker 2: And is that money going into more journalism?

1641
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:50,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I'd assume it's going into making so that

1642
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:53,759
Speaker 1: vox media doesn't collapse in and of itself.

1643
01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:55,320
Speaker 3: It's the last resort business model.

1644
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:57,599
Speaker 2: And the thing is you can make it a deal

1645
01:18:57,680 --> 01:19:00,559
Speaker 2: with the customer. You could be like, if we gave

1646
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 2: you more, and now it's like, what if we gave

1647
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:05,840
Speaker 2: you less and you you put out reporters who have

1648
01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:10,840
Speaker 2: built relationships with readers in a free environment and then

1649
01:19:10,920 --> 01:19:15,800
Speaker 2: say and no, it's gone, and you'll get cited less.

1650
01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:17,960
Speaker 2: I cite paywalled stuff all the time, but like you

1651
01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:20,320
Speaker 2: will be cited less because people on social media will

1652
01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:23,519
Speaker 2: be like, oh, I never pay gave link for the

1653
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:28,479
Speaker 2: no pig No not everything pay pig model. It's just

1654
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:30,680
Speaker 2: frustrating because it could actually be better. But I think

1655
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:32,919
Speaker 2: the actual answer is everything needs to be smaller.

1656
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:35,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean it's just like, how do we

1657
01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:37,479
Speaker 1: get to that. We a lot of ruin and destruction.

1658
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:38,400
Speaker 1: I don't really think we.

1659
01:19:38,400 --> 01:19:41,600
Speaker 2: Can Defector four or four after math. The answer is

1660
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:42,640
Speaker 2: that and actually.

1661
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:46,280
Speaker 1: And those came out of ruin and destruction in the

1662
01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:49,640
Speaker 1: case of Defector and four O four specifically there you know,

1663
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:52,160
Speaker 1: sites were shut down, they were laid off, and from

1664
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:54,840
Speaker 1: the ashes, rows of worker supported go up.

1665
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:57,880
Speaker 2: So Jeff final question to wrap us up. Do you

1666
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:01,080
Speaker 2: think that there could be a future for journalism where

1667
01:20:01,120 --> 01:20:03,280
Speaker 2: it's kind of a return to the I don't mean

1668
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:06,479
Speaker 2: literally four thousand readers, but a return to that kind

1669
01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 2: of old thing where it's just it is more distributed.

1670
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:14,479
Speaker 3: I hope. So I want to see media at a

1671
01:20:14,760 --> 01:20:18,040
Speaker 3: human scale. I've spent the last ten years of my

1672
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:21,679
Speaker 3: career I kind of accidentally chronically in what I think

1673
01:20:21,800 --> 01:20:24,680
Speaker 3: is the end of the long century of mass media.

1674
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:28,479
Speaker 3: And what does that mean? Well, first, it's a confession,

1675
01:20:28,479 --> 01:20:31,080
Speaker 3: because I devoted my career to mass media, right I

1676
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:33,680
Speaker 3: worked for being Publications and I wrote about television, and

1677
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:39,040
Speaker 3: I recognize now the bankruptcy of that. And so I

1678
01:20:39,040 --> 01:20:41,479
Speaker 3: think that we've got to return to, as I say,

1679
01:20:41,560 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 3: media human scale. And it's going to be a messy transition.

1680
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:45,880
Speaker 2: It already is.

1681
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:49,920
Speaker 3: It already is, And I don't have the answers to

1682
01:20:49,960 --> 01:20:52,479
Speaker 3: every business model of how to get there. The information

1683
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:55,000
Speaker 3: is one. There are a few others out there, and

1684
01:20:55,160 --> 01:20:58,120
Speaker 3: I think that we're going to grow new sprouts out

1685
01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:00,840
Speaker 3: of the ashes. For a long time, especially working in

1686
01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:03,519
Speaker 3: a journalism school, I had to be I think I

1687
01:21:03,560 --> 01:21:05,200
Speaker 3: presumed I had to be nice to the likes of

1688
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:08,960
Speaker 3: the New York Times. Right, fuck them, I mean. And

1689
01:21:09,040 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 3: let's be clear, there is still good report of the

1690
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:13,360
Speaker 3: New York Times. I did a good Times hashtag about

1691
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:19,000
Speaker 3: vaccinations only yesterday. Their institution though, the but the well,

1692
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:23,120
Speaker 3: the culture right now is trying to piss off the people,

1693
01:21:23,240 --> 01:21:24,800
Speaker 3: the last people who are loyal to them.

1694
01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:28,200
Speaker 2: And who would that be? Just to be clear that liberals, okay, liberals.

1695
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 3: Jay Rosen in twenty eighteen wrote that, hmm, the New

1696
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:35,639
Speaker 3: York Times primary support now has shifted from advertising to subscription.

1697
01:21:35,960 --> 01:21:38,880
Speaker 3: This is going to change the relationship of the Times

1698
01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 3: newsroom to its public. And he wasn't saying how, But

1699
01:21:42,520 --> 01:21:43,800
Speaker 3: now I think the way it is is that I

1700
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:46,559
Speaker 3: think the Times is saying, see, we pissed you off.

1701
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:49,000
Speaker 3: You don't own us, even though we depend upon you

1702
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:50,200
Speaker 3: for money, You don't own us.

1703
01:21:50,479 --> 01:21:52,639
Speaker 2: Kankey style yeah, yeah.

1704
01:21:52,680 --> 01:21:55,679
Speaker 3: If Steinberger where the publisher of The New York Times

1705
01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:59,360
Speaker 3: might as well be. So I'm at the point now

1706
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 3: giving up on big old media. The newspaper chains are

1707
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:09,440
Speaker 3: almost all run by hedge funds. Broadcast as geriatric magazines

1708
01:22:09,439 --> 01:22:13,320
Speaker 3: are dying. I wrote a book about that too. The

1709
01:22:13,360 --> 01:22:19,040
Speaker 3: major national media is getting it from all sides. Costco

1710
01:22:19,160 --> 01:22:22,639
Speaker 3: is going to stop selling books. Hollywood is a mess.

1711
01:22:24,160 --> 01:22:27,040
Speaker 3: Linear cable televisions are getting left off because they have cooties.

1712
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:31,040
Speaker 3: That's old big mass media. It is a disaster all around.

1713
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:34,720
Speaker 3: So what interests me? Instead? My students go to They

1714
01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:36,120
Speaker 3: don't want to go to places like that. They want

1715
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:37,559
Speaker 3: to go to things that are doing new things like

1716
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:43,000
Speaker 3: documentars or City Bureau or places like that. They're building

1717
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:46,080
Speaker 3: a new ecosystem out there. It's going to be Bessie.

1718
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:48,479
Speaker 3: A lot of things will fail, but some will succeed.

1719
01:22:48,600 --> 01:22:51,439
Speaker 3: Like Paris's the Information So.

1720
01:22:51,479 --> 01:22:53,720
Speaker 2: Paris, where can people find you?

1721
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:56,120
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter if you're still using

1722
01:22:56,160 --> 01:22:59,000
Speaker 1: that site at Paris Martina, or better on Blue Sky

1723
01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:04,679
Speaker 1: at NYC. I'm also published at the Information regularly. It's

1724
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:06,360
Speaker 1: the Information dot Com.

1725
01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:09,880
Speaker 2: Had the story about sniffies. Yes, I'll link it in

1726
01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:16,240
Speaker 2: the notes. Mister Jeff Dope, Professor Jeff Jeff. Where can

1727
01:23:16,280 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 2: people find you?

1728
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:20,559
Speaker 3: I'm at Jeff Jervis everywhere, too many places, and then

1729
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:23,120
Speaker 3: at Jeffjervis dot com. You can buy my books.

1730
01:23:23,479 --> 01:23:26,559
Speaker 2: Please buy the books. I've been so this has been

1731
01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:29,599
Speaker 2: so much fun and like the first real radio Better Offline,

1732
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:31,599
Speaker 2: it's been so much fun. Thank you both for being here.

1733
01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:34,040
Speaker 2: Thank you to our producer of course, Daniel Goodman. You've

1734
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:38,000
Speaker 2: been listening to Better Offline. I'm your chief pig. Mister Zitron.

1735
01:23:38,360 --> 01:23:40,760
Speaker 2: You'll know where to find me. You're already listening to

1736
01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:42,880
Speaker 2: my words. I just want to repeat to everyone who

1737
01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:45,840
Speaker 2: sat through the Cees show, thank you again. We will

1738
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:48,479
Speaker 2: do it next year and we're already planning to add

1739
01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:51,559
Speaker 2: a new guest, a stand up comic, and then I'm

1740
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:54,080
Speaker 2: not gonna name yet, but she's going to be absolutely incredible.

1741
01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:56,280
Speaker 2: Thank you again for listening. Everyone. You know where to

1742
01:23:56,320 --> 01:23:58,040
Speaker 2: find me, and you're going to hear a very old

1743
01:23:58,080 --> 01:23:59,760
Speaker 2: message after this, some of you're going to be very

1744
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:10,639
Speaker 2: fair about. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening

1745
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:13,320
Speaker 2: to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better

1746
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:16,360
Speaker 2: Offline theme song is Matasowski. You can check out more

1747
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:19,880
Speaker 2: of his music and audio projects at Matasowski dot com,

1748
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:23,360
Speaker 2: M A T T O S O W s Ki

1749
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:26,639
Speaker 2: dot com. You can email me at easy at better

1750
01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:29,080
Speaker 2: offline dot com or visit better offline dot com to

1751
01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:32,000
Speaker 2: find more podcast links and of course, my newsletter. I

1752
01:24:32,040 --> 01:24:34,759
Speaker 2: also really recommend you go to chat dot Where's youreed

1753
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:37,080
Speaker 2: dot at to visit the discord, and go to our

1754
01:24:37,160 --> 01:24:40,439
Speaker 2: slash Better Offline to check out our reddit. Thank you

1755
01:24:40,520 --> 01:24:43,880
Speaker 2: so much for listening. Better Offline is a production of

1756
01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:46,800
Speaker 2: cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit

1757
01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:49,960
Speaker 2: our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out

1758
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:52,960
Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1759
01:24:53,000 --> 01:25:14,760
Speaker 2: your podcasts.