1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 2: So, how long have you. 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 3: Known mister Depp? 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 4: How many years it's gotta be over forty and from eighty. 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 3: Two to now? And before four years ago, were you 6 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 3: close friends? 7 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 4: Yeah? It was a zero my best friend. 8 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. 9 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 3: Was he like a brother to you before four years ago? 10 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, we were brothers. 11 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 5: You would call me a brother, I'd call him a brother. 12 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. 13 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: You might remember when Johnny Depp's former best friend Bruce 14 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: Whitkin testified against him. That was a defamation case where 15 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: the verdict meant money damages. But what about a case 16 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: where a former best friend's testimony leads to prison time. 17 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: That's exactly what happened when former Barclay's trader Okshane Naran 18 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: John testified against former Goldman banker Brigesh Goyle, who was 19 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: once his best friend, his classmate, his groomsman, his squash 20 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: partner and wingman, and the author of an insider trading 21 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: scheme that's upended both of their lives. Neuron John's testimony 22 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: basically sealed Goyle's fate. After just three hours of deliberations, 23 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: a New York jury returned a verdict against Goyle guilty 24 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: on all charges. Joining me is Greg Farrell, Bloomberg Legal reporter, 25 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: tell us about this case, what it was about. 26 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 3: It's an insider trading case and it was charged a 27 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 3: year ago by prosecutors here in Manhattan, and a few 28 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 3: things struck me as unusual about it. First of all, 29 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 3: the evidence that was in the indictment. I think it 30 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 3: was July of last year when this indictment came down, 31 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 3: had evidence like as recently as early June, May and June, 32 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 3: so obviously they'd gotten evidence and then charged it within weeks, 33 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 3: which is highly unusual. Secondly, it's an insider trading case, 34 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 3: and the cooperator, the guy who actually did the trading 35 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 3: and kept the profits for the most part, wasn't charged, 36 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 3: which is unusual. And then thirdly, I did a little 37 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 3: feature on them a year ago because they played squash together. 38 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 3: They were best buddies, their wife's social eye, you know, 39 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 3: they traveled together, they went to concerts, you know, in 40 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 3: Belgium that famously, and one of them was a groomsman 41 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 3: of the other at his wedding. So these guys were 42 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 3: very tight. They're from India and they met at the 43 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 3: high school of Business at UC Berkeley, and they both 44 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 3: came to New York and they were strivers. The sad 45 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 3: thing is they made it they were here. One of 46 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,679 Speaker 3: them was a VP at Goldman Sachs and then he 47 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 3: went became a principal at Apollo, and the other one 48 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 3: was an FX trader at Barclay's. People come from all 49 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 3: over the world to work on Wall Street, and you know, 50 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 3: these guys did everything by the book. They went to 51 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 3: the best university in India, they went to Berkeley, and 52 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 3: then they got to Wall Street and then it was 53 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: like the gang that couldn't shoot straight. You know. They 54 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 3: had a few trades that you know, the first one 55 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 3: that was charged inside of trading, they made two thousand 56 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 3: dollars on it, and then the second one was over thirty. Okay, 57 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 3: that's better. It was the one that made two hundred 58 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 3: and forty five thousand that caught the attention of the 59 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 3: sec and eventually led to this. 60 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: Did Nurajah maintain that he didn't know at first that 61 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: Goyle was using insight in from. 62 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 3: So that's what I was looking forward to learning in 63 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 3: the trial is how did this come about? Why did 64 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 3: prosecutors in Manhattan who were very tough and rigid on 65 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 3: inside of trading. How did they let this guy go? 66 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 3: And the story that Akshay told on the stand was 67 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 3: this that he had breached. Both these guys breached their 68 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 3: own rules like the venial sin, not the capital crime. 69 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 3: Akhay was an FX trader at Barclay's and he wanted 70 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 3: to trade in options and he was not allowed to 71 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 3: because he was involved with options at Barclay's. But he 72 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 3: set up an account in the name of his brother 73 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 3: who was in the UK and traded there. And when 74 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 3: his friend Goyle heard about this, he thought that was 75 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 3: very interesting. He was intrigued like that, you know, his 76 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 3: friend had figured out a way to do some trading 77 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 3: and what Okhay was trading on was not inside information. 78 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 3: He came up with an algorithm that would chase market 79 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 3: trends and try to beat the market, and of course 80 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 3: it didn't. And according to his testimony, when Goyle found 81 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 3: out about this, he said, forget the algorithm. That's like, 82 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 3: you know, trying to find a needle in a haystack. 83 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 3: And according to Naranja and the cooperator, Goyle said, I 84 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 3: have good insights on the market and I'll help you 85 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 3: I'll give you some advice on things to buy, et cetera. 86 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: And then there came in the year twenty seventeen a 87 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 3: series of suggestions, why don't you buy some options in Loomos. 88 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 3: You know, it's looking good to me, And sure enough, 89 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 3: a month later Loumos was acquired and there was a gain, 90 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 3: a modest gain of two thousand. But then a series 91 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 3: of other tips came in, and on the stand, Naranjan 92 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 3: talked about how he really felt something wrong here. This 93 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 3: guy's getting this two exact too many times, and he'd 94 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 3: pester Goyle like we insider trading, do you know something? 95 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 3: And no, no, not at all, not at all, and 96 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 3: would again keep to his story that this is just 97 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 3: stuff he's picking up. But in fact, prosecutors showed he 98 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 3: was still getting emails from the firm wide capital Committee, 99 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: which is highly confidential stuff at Goldman, about what deals 100 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: are coming in the pipeline and things that are restricted, 101 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 3: and so he'd get a good heads up, you know, 102 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 3: weeks or sometimes days in advance chants of companies that 103 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 3: were going to be acquired. So there was a series 104 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 3: of six of these trades that were charged, and then 105 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 3: every one of them, you know. The prosecutors demonstrated that 106 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 3: the memo arrived on let's say, the first of the month, 107 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 3: saying that there'd be a deal within the next few weeks, 108 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 3: and then shortly thereafter Goyle would get in touch with 109 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 3: his friend and say, you know, let's talk, Let's have 110 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 3: a drink tonight. Goyle was very careful not to spell 111 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 3: anything out in texts or in email, so it was 112 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 3: only person to person. He never texted and said buy 113 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 3: some options in Loumos or buy some options in Thermo 114 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 3: King or whatever. It was always face to face meetings 115 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 3: and akshay Niron John that the Barkley's trader was accumulating profits, 116 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: but there was no splitting it. They had agreed at 117 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 3: first they would split whatever came out of this joint venture, 118 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 3: but it wasn't until twenty twenty one Nearrojen had moved 119 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 3: to London and then come back change jobs, and finally 120 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 3: Goyle asked him for a loan of eighty five thousand dollars, 121 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 3: carefully phrased in one of those text messages so you 122 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 3: couldn't quite tell or in his email what the loan 123 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 3: was for. And the government charged that this was basically 124 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 3: the payback for his half of the spoils. They made 125 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 3: about two hundred and eighty thousand dollars in illicit profits, 126 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 3: but they also blew some money still with the algorithm 127 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 3: other stuff, so that wasn't the total, it wasn't half 128 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 3: of that. 129 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: So without Neurangen, would there have been a case against Goyle. 130 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 3: No, And this is the thing about this, and if 131 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 3: it weren't for what Nourangen did and the way he testified, 132 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 3: I suspect his wife was all over him and said, 133 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 3: you've got to make this right. And by the time 134 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 3: the FBI came calling on Goyle and Neurangen early last year, 135 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 3: in like May of twenty twenty two, by the time 136 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 3: it came around, Nouranngen decided he was going to record 137 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 3: one of the conversations. This was actually dramatic testimony. The 138 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 3: first time they spoke, they were talking about like, are 139 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 3: there any incriminating messages or what's going on here? What 140 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 3: can we get rid of? And Goyle had deleted most 141 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 3: everything any switch jobs, so he didn't have his text 142 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 3: from a few years before, but Nouranngen did. And the 143 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 3: second time they met, Goyle was very careful not to 144 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 3: reach out to him directly, but to have the receptionist 145 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 3: at the health club in the building where they both 146 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 3: lived call up and relay a message please bring down 147 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 3: my swim goggles. I left them there, something innocuous that 148 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 3: could not be traced, and a phone call that wouldn't 149 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 3: be from him. He spent a lot of time making 150 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 3: sure there are no fingerprints on the contacts like that. 151 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 3: They would only meet face to face. So at some 152 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 3: point when the rangine didn't respond, Goyle sent his wife 153 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 3: to knock on the door, and so they finally had 154 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 3: to meet. Goyle brings him into a stairwell because there's 155 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 3: no cameras in the stairwell, and we saw evidence of 156 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 3: photos from the elevator and common spaces, but he wanted 157 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 3: to be out of side of a camera. He made 158 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 3: an Aranchin put his own phone, shut it off and 159 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 3: put it on the stairwell behind a cement block so 160 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 3: they couldn't be traced. And then they started talking in 161 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 3: specific details about messages, and Naranjen had his wife's cell 162 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 3: phone and was recording, and Arranchin testified it started like 163 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 3: vibrating while he was there, like his wife was getting 164 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 3: a call and he didn't know how to do it, 165 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 3: so he somehow turned it off, so we only got 166 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 3: a partial recording. So having gone that far, he went 167 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 3: to the FBI, and the FBI I wired him up 168 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 3: properly for the next meeting a week later, and that's 169 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 3: where Goyle started saying, Oh, these messages are terrible. We 170 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 3: got to delete this, delete that, and Goyle himself started 171 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 3: deleting messages. 172 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: Was their tension in the courtroom when he was on 173 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: the stand. Was Goyle glaring. 174 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 3: Was he was glaring at him and at one point 175 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 3: I'm just giving him. I'm not sure it'd be a 176 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 3: death stare because the jury could see that. But I'm 177 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 3: behind the defendant. You know where the reporters sit, so 178 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 3: I couldn't doubt. But clearly he was locked in on it. 179 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 3: And clearly his decision to testify in his own behalf, 180 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 3: which is very risky, was a sign that they thought 181 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 3: they had to get him out there, and it was 182 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: largely his decision. I'm told that he wanted it. It 183 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 3: could have gone either way. You know, defense lawyer's offering counsel, 184 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 3: be careful unless you really want to go, and I 185 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 3: think he said, yeah, I really want to go testify, 186 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 3: and he comported himself really well, here's the thing. The 187 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 3: main lawyer for Goyle, Read Brodsky of Gibson Dunn, used 188 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 3: to be a prosecutor in that office and he won 189 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 3: some of the famous insider trading cases brought on Great 190 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 3: Baher a decade ago. So he was the right guy 191 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 3: for something like this, and he presented circumstantial evidence showing 192 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 3: that Nourangen, the other guy, could actually have overheard. These 193 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 3: guys were so close that he could have overheard Goldman conversations. 194 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 3: He could have, you know, because they knew each other's 195 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 3: passwords to the phones when they're playing Spotify or whatever. 196 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 3: Could have There was reasonable doubt baked into it. The 197 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 3: problem was, even though it's possible that several of the 198 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 3: trades could have been explained by that, you can't explain 199 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 3: the deleting of the texts. You can't explain the obstruction. 200 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 3: There's no story you can concoct that will reasonably explain 201 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 3: why a guy is being invested by the FBI. Start saying, Okay, 202 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 3: we're going to delete some of these messages. This is 203 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 3: really bad exploitive, exploitive exploit It's just clear and once 204 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 3: you see that, all the rest of the inside of 205 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 3: trading falls into place, like, yeah, he had to have 206 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 3: done it because the obstruction tells the story. 207 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: Did he explain why he was there testifying again to yes. 208 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 3: So that's a big part of it is the introduction 209 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 3: he talks about and said, you know, we were close friends. 210 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 3: I looked up to him. He was my mentor. Because 211 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 3: Goyle was a few years older he was he seemed 212 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 3: more mature. I spent some time last year looking through 213 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 3: all the social media postings, particularly Neuragen had a lot 214 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 3: of them, and his wife had a lot of them, 215 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 3: so I got to know them virtually, including photos from 216 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 3: their wedding, based on how publicly they were sharing in 217 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 3: their lives, unlike Goyle and his wife, who would very 218 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 3: few outside of a photo from the Tomorrowland concert in Belgium. 219 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 3: I don't think Goyle had much on his social media 220 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: sites before they shut them all down. So Naranjin talked 221 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 3: about this, and the way he talked about it was 222 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 3: it was definitely a big brother, little brother relationship, and 223 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 3: clearly the FBI and the federal prosecutors in Manhattan agreed. 224 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 3: They thought, you know, he doesn't deserve to get charged. 225 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 3: He made the case by bringing in the original tape 226 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 3: and then sending it, so the case would not have 227 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 3: occurred without Nourangen cooperating or coming in like that, or 228 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 3: if it did, the FBI would have really put them 229 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 3: both through the ringer and would have spent much more time. 230 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: I mean, how did he explain why he did that? 231 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: Was he afraid? 232 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 3: Yes, he was afraid, and he'd suspecting it was insider 233 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 3: trading all along, according to his testimony, and it was 234 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 3: just dirty, stinky his words, something like that, insider trading. 235 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 3: And I kept gnawing at him, and he couldn't share 236 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 3: it with his wife because he knew that she would 237 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 3: be down on him for this. So that was interesting. 238 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 3: The portrait of the cooperator is, if not a broken man, 239 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 3: a guy was you know, he knows his career and 240 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 3: finance is over. And he spoke softly and there was contrition, 241 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 3: and you couldn't detect any animosity on the Branchin's part 242 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 3: towards his former best friend. It was just it was sad. 243 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: And basically Goyle just denied everything. 244 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 3: Yes, And he struck me as sort of like, Okay, 245 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 3: this guy, you know, has succeeded he's at Goldman, he 246 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 3: knows how to manage himself, and he's on the stand 247 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 3: and he's saying absolutely, not that never happened, etc. No, 248 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: not at all, And he kept having plausible excuses for 249 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 3: things that happened, except for the obstruction, where it was 250 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 3: less plausible. It's just why panic, that's all. I just panicked. 251 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 3: And the prosecutors cross examined him and put him through 252 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 3: the ringer and said, you know, you've been lying here, 253 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 3: not really. And maybe the moment that really turned this 254 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 3: from being something where it would have taken maybe a 255 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 3: couple of days of deliberations before Friday verdict or a 256 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 3: possible hung jury was the government's rebuttal after a great 257 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 3: closing argument by Ribrodsky, the former insider trading prosecutor turned 258 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 3: defense lawyer, raising all sorts of reasonable doubt possibilities. After that, 259 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 3: one of the government's prosecutors, and Sam Rothschild did an 260 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 3: excellent job with the rebuttal, just saying, you know, come on, 261 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 3: the simplest explanation is what controls here? And what's the 262 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 3: simplest explanation. How does this all fit? And he said, 263 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 3: these lawyers you've heardgested they're great, you know, I think 264 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 3: they're terrific too, but they can't perform magic. They can't 265 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 3: make these facts go away. You know, he clearly connected 266 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 3: with them for them to turn around and give him 267 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 3: a verdict. 268 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: How long was the jury out? 269 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 3: Oh? Three hours. I'm glad I didn't place a wager 270 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 3: on this because they went in midday on Wednesday, like 271 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 3: a twelve thirty, and I thought, okay, there reasonable doubt here. 272 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 3: It's at least going to go to Thursday. You got 273 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 3: to give the guy like the respect of thinking about 274 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 3: it for a few hours. And a note came out 275 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 3: around three forty five, so several of us went up 276 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 3: to the courtroom and instead of asking for testimony, it said, 277 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 3: but you have a verdict, and it's like, you know, 278 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 3: he's dead. Three hours and the jury they got along 279 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 3: very well. You could tell just the chemistry. They're all 280 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 3: sort of laughing and joking with each other. There wasn't 281 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 3: any evidence of what you need to get a hung jury, 282 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 3: which at a certain point I'm sure the defense wanted 283 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 3: is someone who can be obstinate, someone who can dig in, 284 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 3: someone who doesn't really fit in. Well, that sometimes helps. 285 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 3: There didn't seem to be any evidence of that. Yeah, 286 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 3: they all got along well. But when the verdict came in, 287 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 3: the jury foreman got up and said, we've reached verdict. 288 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 3: Youre on. I'm guilty on all six counts. And then 289 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 3: the judge makes sure he pulls each of the twelve jurors, 290 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 3: and one after the I said yes guilty. They got 291 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: to number eleven, and this woman like, paused, I need 292 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 3: a moment, and she was almost tearing up, and she said, like, 293 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 3: I had trouble hearing it, but please give me a second. 294 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 3: And then after like almost a full minute, she said, 295 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 3: yes guilty. You could tell she was having trouble with this, 296 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 3: and I thought, that's kind of weird, and yet not 297 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 3: because this is a sad story, and you develop empathy 298 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 3: for a defendant. You know he's there every day, and 299 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 3: even though the evidence is there, I could understand after 300 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 3: the fact what probably happened. If they're in the jury 301 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 3: room and eleven of the twelve are clearly like, yeah, 302 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 3: this is clear, and she agrees intellectually she knows it, 303 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 3: but it's just tough emotionally because even though the judge 304 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 3: says you're not to think of the punishment at all, 305 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 3: you're just here to judge the facts and whether or 306 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 3: not the defend communities crimes. It's clear what's going to 307 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 3: happen to this guy. You know, he's going to go 308 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 3: to jail, and I think she probably had trouble with that. 309 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: So how much time is he facing. 310 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 3: Well, the maximum prison term for some of these insative 311 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 3: trading and securities fraud cases is twenty years. There's no 312 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 3: way he'll get that. I suspect a few years. However, 313 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 3: he testified and it's clear the jury, you know, agreed 314 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 3: with the government that he was lying. So the judge 315 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 3: won't like that that you're in my courtroom and you lied. 316 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 3: You know, judges don't like that. So that's a negative. 317 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 3: That will add something to it, a lack of contrition 318 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 3: unless he somehow comes around now and prays for mercy, 319 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 3: which is tough to do after you've just testified. You know. 320 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 3: In some ways, Goyle struck me a bit like to 321 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 3: go back. I know you and I've talked about en 322 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 3: round before. Jeff Skilling a very bright guy who was 323 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 3: sort of cornered by some facts and tried, you know, 324 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 3: and was bred enough to argue his way out or 325 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 3: try to argue his way out of some of them, 326 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 3: but it just didn't work. And at the end, you know, 327 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 3: you lose that when you're a judge at sentencing time, 328 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 3: you don't have sympathy for a guy who clearly was 329 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 3: not truthful in your court. 330 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: It is such a sad case, friends turning against each other. 331 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Greg, That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Greg Farrell. 332 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 4: This case has been extremely complex, involving a coordinated international, 333 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 4: interagency and private sector response and an unforgiving and difficult 334 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 4: to access region of the ocean. 335 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: The Coastguard has officially convened a Marine Board of Investigation, 336 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: or MBI, into the cause of the deadly implosion of 337 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: a titan submersible on its way down to the Titanic. 338 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: All five people on board died, including the CEO of 339 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: the subcompany, Stockton Rush. Captain Jason Neubauer is the Coastguard's 340 00:15:58,960 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: chief investigator. 341 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 5: The NBI is also responsible for accountability aspects of the incident, 342 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 5: and it can make recommendations to the proper authorities to 343 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 5: pursue civil or criminal sanctions. 344 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: Carl Stanley, a sub expert who took a trip on 345 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: the same sub back in twenty nineteen says he warned 346 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: Rush about safety flaws in the vessel after the trip, 347 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: but his concerns were dismissed in an email exchange. 348 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 3: I think the more this picture shapes up, we're going 349 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,119 Speaker 3: to see that he was not only a terrible engineer, 350 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 3: but something of a con man. 351 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: And Charlottean joining me is Bloomberg legal reporter Joel Rosenblatt, 352 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: who's looked into the possible legal ramifications of the implosion. 353 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: Is the US or is Canada taking the lead here? 354 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: Who's doing investigating. 355 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 2: In the US? Coast Guard is announced in an investigation, 356 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: so has Canada's Transportation Safety Board, as well as the 357 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: Royal can Mounted Police. British investigators and French investigators are 358 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 2: also looking at what happened. So it's a real combination 359 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 2: and according to the Coast Guard, they're all working together. 360 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: So are criminal charges of possibility here. 361 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: There is the possibility of criminal charges. It would be tricky, 362 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 2: It's going to be difficult, but we'll have to kind 363 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: of see what the investigations produce. In the United States, 364 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 2: under US law, criminal charges would be brought under what's 365 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 2: called the Stemens Manslaughter Statute, which dates to the eighteen hundreds. 366 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 2: You can imagine how in earlier periods of you guys 367 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 2: Say's history, there are many more different types of accidents 368 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: and deaths on the high seat. And the law has 369 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 2: actually a relatively low bar for establishing criminal responsibility. But 370 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 2: there are, of course, as required under any kind of 371 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 2: ob but especially criminal others, certain hurdles you have to 372 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 2: get over, one of which is just right. I mean, 373 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 2: that's just kind of basic to any lawsuit, but especially here. 374 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 2: And that's what makes it especially tricky is just given 375 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 2: all the different locations involved. The company was based in Everett, Washington, 376 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 2: in Washington State. It had a unit registered in the 377 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 2: Bahamas under which I think the Titan submersible was kind 378 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 2: of operating. The submersible is what the Titan was called, 379 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 2: was deployed by a Canadian ship called the Polar Prince, 380 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 2: which left from Saint John's in Newfoundland to international waters 381 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 2: in the Atlantic over the Titanic, which it was exploring, 382 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 2: you know. And then I mentioned the different countries involved. 383 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,719 Speaker 2: The passengers were American, Pakistani, French, and British. And so 384 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 2: you take all this together and it's going to be 385 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 2: a big question of where a criminal case would be brought. 386 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: Who has jurisdiction. It's one hurdle under the seamen's manslaughter statue. 387 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: You mentioned it's a submersible under the semens statute. Is 388 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 1: it also a question of whether it is actually a vessel? 389 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 2: Well, Junior, really seem to know your maritime law because 390 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 2: that's the other hurdle, right, So there's a kind of 391 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: definition of what is a vessel under that statute, and 392 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 2: there's big questions to what not the subversible was a 393 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 2: vesselble In fact, most leglfes were doov spoken to. I 394 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: think it wasn't. It just wasn't designed to carry people 395 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 2: across on top of the surface of the ocean. And 396 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 2: you know, it had very limited capability in terms of 397 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 2: how it can move. So probably prosecutors US prosecutors would 398 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 2: be I think it's going to be hard pressed to 399 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 2: fit the submersible into the definition of a vessel under 400 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 2: that act. 401 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: And Joe, who would they possibly prosecute here? 402 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 2: That's a good question because the captain, the pilot of 403 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 2: the submersible, his name was Stockton Rush. He's also the 404 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 2: CEO of the company ocean Gate that operated it, is dead. 405 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 2: He was piloting dismersible when it imploded. So so the 406 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 2: question is, well, on the civil side, you know, who 407 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 2: else could you go after? You know, can you go 408 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 2: after the company itself or what's left of it, or 409 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: any possible affiliates of the company. On the criminal side, though, 410 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 2: that's what the semen's manslaughter statute actually benefits prosecutors because 411 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: you can go after a kind of wide range of 412 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 2: people and you know, not only it's operators, but engineers 413 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 2: and managers, are even inspectors who gave it a pass 414 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 2: maybe and when they shouldn't have. So it actually captures 415 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 2: potentially a white net that can be cast in terms 416 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 2: of a criminal prosecution. 417 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: Whenever there is a disaster like this, civil lawsuits are 418 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: almost certain to follow. The passenger assigned waivers agreeing the 419 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: trip to the bottom of the Atlantic might result in 420 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: injure your debt. But a lot of time those waivers 421 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: aren't worth the paper they're written on. What about the 422 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: waivers here? 423 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, so that's another question that comes up, in 424 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 2: particular on the civil side that the maritime law there 425 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 2: is the Death on the High Seas Act and the 426 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 2: waivers as I understand it, mentioned the possibility of death 427 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 2: numerous times. If you actually read the waiver, there's lots 428 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,239 Speaker 2: that can go wrong, Ocean Gates said, and it's not 429 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 2: liable for any of it, including you know, you dying. 430 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: So that would seem on the face of it to 431 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 2: be a big problem for any civil suit. But under 432 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 2: the law, under really any law, a waiver can protect 433 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 2: a company for negligence, but not it's the negligence as 434 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: gross in other words, want in our reckless conduct affecting 435 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 2: the life of another person. And so here there were 436 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 2: plenty of warnings. That's kind of the most interesting part 437 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 2: of this, and in some ways the most tragic part 438 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: is that Stockton Rush, the CEO and pilot, had many 439 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 2: warnings of problems with the Titan sub and disregarded them. 440 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 2: You know, all these warnings that Stockton Rush god could 441 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 2: be evidence of gross negligence, right if he just got 442 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 2: all these warnings from different sources, and I'm talking about 443 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 2: very explicit, technical and well considered complaints about the problems 444 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 2: that the Titan faced and the risks, So then the 445 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: question would be, well, how much of that did he ignore? 446 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 2: But also then you know, if you're signing these waivers 447 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 2: but you're not disclosing. For example, it's hard to imagine 448 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 2: he disclosed all this information that he got to a 449 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 2: warning of the possibilities of fatality from your story. 450 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: It seemed to me that one of the most relevant 451 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: pieces of evidence was a letter from the Marine Technology 452 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: Society tell us about that. 453 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: That to me is the most damning piece of evidence. 454 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 2: I mean, there's another piece from a whistleblower lawsuit, but 455 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: the letter from the Marine Technology Society dated in March 456 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 2: of twenty eighteen, right, so this is quite a while 457 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 2: ago in terms of, you know, its relationship to what 458 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 2: happened here five years later is it wasn't. And there's 459 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 2: some controversy or questions about the letter, but there's no 460 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 2: question that Stockton Rush received it. And I spoke to 461 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 2: William Conan, who's the chairman of the Marine Technology Society's 462 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 2: Manned Submersibles Committee, which is quite a title. But the 463 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 2: letter is very concise. It's one page long, but it 464 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 2: describes warnings about negative outcomes, including catastrophic events, and how 465 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: a single they call it a negative event, could totally 466 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 2: kind of destroy the reputation that the Marine Technology Society 467 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 2: has by getting its members and all the kind of 468 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,719 Speaker 2: people who are doing this type of deep sea diving 469 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 2: in submersibles to adhere to industry standards and testing. And 470 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 2: the letter says that Stockton Rush's marketing material advertises that 471 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 2: the Titan had met or exceeded safety standards, but there's 472 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 2: no evidence that it has actually been followed or tested, 473 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 2: and that he was misleading the public and urged him 474 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 2: to stop thesions until he got his Titan submersible tested 475 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 2: and up to standards. The letter is if you read it, 476 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: it's just a quick, really well written read of saying, 477 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 2: you know, please stop this before you kill somebody. That's 478 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 2: the upshot of it. 479 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: And what about the whistleblower. 480 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 2: The whistleblower is named David Lockridge, and at about the 481 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 2: same time, I'm suspecting that there's some overlap between David 482 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: Lockridge's firing and subsequent litigation and the letter from the 483 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 2: Marine Technology Society. Though I don't know that David Lockridge 484 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 2: was a high level person, then probably I think an 485 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 2: engineer would describe his work who objected to the design 486 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 2: of the Titan submersible and said so and was fired 487 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 2: for it, and the litigation that ensued it produced enough 488 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: documentation to indicate that this is another example of how 489 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 2: doctor Rush was really well aware, this time from a 490 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 2: high level employee who ultimately refused to go forward and 491 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 2: stay at the company unless he did something to address 492 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 2: the design flaws that Lockledge was calling his attention to. 493 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: A lot of the people on board were very wealthy. 494 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: There was a billionaire father and son in one of 495 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 1: Pakistan's wealthiest families, and the question is whether their family 496 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: would even want to pursue a lawsuit. 497 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 3: You know. 498 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 2: I talked to a lawyer whose response to that question 499 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: was probably not, like why, really, we kind of know 500 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 2: what happened physically, right, the submersible imploded and these people were, 501 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 2: as you mentioned, wealthy, and they signed these waivers, so 502 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 2: they knew the risk, So what's to learn? However, another 503 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: lawyer that I spoke to pointed out that, you know, 504 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 2: money isn't the only objective of a lawsuit. A lawsuit 505 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 2: could be filed by these people in part because they're 506 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 2: wealthy and can can afford it to figure out more 507 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 2: deeply what happened. For example, you know, all the stuff 508 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 2: that we're talking about, the letter from the Ring Technology 509 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 2: Society and David Lockleuch's lawsuits you know, how much more 510 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 2: of that is there? And were they duped despite the 511 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 2: fact that beside these waivers renewed the risks. Maybe they didn't, 512 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 2: right as we're discussing here, Maybe they didn't know the 513 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 2: extent of the risks or Stocking Rush should have told 514 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: them more, and they want to kind of publicize that 515 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 2: or prove that and find out the truth. Or you know, 516 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 2: maybe the lawsuit is filed simply because they're angry. Right. 517 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 2: Sometimes that's the reason lawsuits are filed. It's not necessarily 518 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 2: a rational decision. I haven't seen any indication of filing yet. 519 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 2: But these people, as you mentioned, were extraordinarily wealthy. You 520 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 2: had to pay two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for 521 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 2: the privilege of taking this trip, so they were all wealthy. 522 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 2: It's not clear to me that all of them paid 523 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 2: that much. One of them who died. His name was 524 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 2: Paul Henri Nargioles is how I would pronounce it. He's 525 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 2: a French diver and had been down to the Titanic 526 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 2: thirty seven times in submersibles and as a diver, he's 527 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 2: a renowned diver. You know, somebody like that is obviously 528 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 2: really well aware of the risks and what's going on. 529 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 2: And it's one of those kind of I think perplexing 530 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 2: pieces of this story is why would somebody like that 531 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 2: in particular, you know, you're so well aware of what's 532 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 2: going on in terms of the pressure that the submersible 533 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 2: is under. Why would he get on board that submercible? 534 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 1: There are a lot of questions and too few answers here. 535 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Joel. That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Joel Rosenblatt, 536 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: and that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. 537 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on 538 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 1: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 539 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast slash Law, 540 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every 541 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso, 542 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: and you're listening to Bloomberg