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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the best of Coast to Coast podcast.

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Speaker 1: the mysterious death of Kurt Cobain. The possibility that government

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Speaker 1: dot com at signing up for Coast in Cider. Now,

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Speaker 1: here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio

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Speaker 1: and welcome back to Coast to Coast. Let me tell

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Speaker 1: you about Paul D. Bully. Paul is an assistant professor

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Speaker 1: of political science at LASLF College in Newton, Massachusetts. He

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Speaker 1: teaches courses like the American Presidency, American Political Institutions, the

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Speaker 1: politics and history of the Cold War, the conspiracy and

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Speaker 1: American Politics, White Caller and Organized Crime, Terrorism and issues

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Speaker 1: in National security as well. Prior to teaching, he was

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Speaker 1: working at and has been a consultant to several government agencies,

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Speaker 1: including the United States Marshall Service and the Commonwealth of

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Speaker 1: Massachusetts Executive Office of Public Safety. He also worked on

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Speaker 1: as a campaign aide to the late Senators John McCain

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Speaker 1: and Lamar Alexander Paul. Welcome back. Good to have you. Oh,

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Speaker 1: thank you George for having me very much. I really

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Speaker 1: appreciate it. And well have you round out tonight. We've

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Speaker 1: had different thoughts and theories. I got to tell you

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Speaker 1: what we ever get to the point though, where we

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Speaker 1: get this whole situation solved? Well, it depends on what

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Speaker 1: you mean when you say solved. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: a couple of standards approved, Like if this was a

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Speaker 1: civil case, for example, it would be a preponderance of

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Speaker 1: the evidence. And I think that's what we're I think

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Speaker 1: that's the standard that we're looking for. I mean, we're

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Speaker 1: never going to have a videotape of the gunman, you know,

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Speaker 1: taking that fatal shot. We're knowing it to have a confession.

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Speaker 1: So I think we just have to prove to a

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Speaker 1: reasonable degree of likelihood, you know what, our conclusion isn't

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Speaker 1: the case. So now, what we talked last, we talked

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Speaker 1: about some different happenings about JFK. Of course, anything new. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of funny um, you know, the

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Speaker 1: research is kind of going really really well lately. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things that that I had had on

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Speaker 1: earth that I hadn't seen before was this connection between

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Speaker 1: Lyndon Johnson and jay Edhoover. M H. They were pretty close.

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Speaker 1: Would have surprise you to know that they lived across

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Speaker 1: the street from each other for nineteen years you mean

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Speaker 1: in DC, in DC, yeah, they uh, you know their

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Speaker 1: address in Northwest They were literally across the street in

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Speaker 1: two houses away. And you know, Rosemary Lincoln, who was

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Speaker 1: President Kennedy's a long time secretary and confident I had

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Speaker 1: written a book in nineteen sixty eight in which she

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Speaker 1: kind of quoted UM JFK saying and she and her

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Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing here is that horrible mister who for blackmails

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Speaker 1: uh President Kennedy into putting Lyndon Johnson on the ticket

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty and he threatened to expose his you know,

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Speaker 1: his coomanizing, etcetera. And you have to wonder to what end,

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Speaker 1: why did Hoover do something? Whover didn't do something unless

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Speaker 1: to something in it for Hoover. And although Johnson was

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Speaker 1: a good friend, you know, quote unquote friend of the FBI. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, one might think that who would be you

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Speaker 1: know again, you know, times were different in nineteen sixty Hoover,

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Speaker 1: you know, may have had an alternative lifestyle. Whover had

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Speaker 1: a history of using FBI agents to maintain his home,

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Speaker 1: paint his trim, prepare his taxes, etc. And who better

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Speaker 1: to know what was going on than you know, his

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Speaker 1: across the street neighbor. So I kind of have this

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Speaker 1: pet theory that it might have been Johnson who was

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Speaker 1: you know, manipulating the puppet strings, and that Hoover was

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Speaker 1: a you know, was his instrument for getting a lot

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Speaker 1: of that done. But we're still completing the research on that.

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Speaker 1: But it does pose an interesting theory, Yeah, true does

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Speaker 1: It was funny too, I was. I was actually reading

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Speaker 1: a book as part of the research from my book,

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Speaker 1: and it was like My Thirty Years and the FBI

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Speaker 1: by a gentleman name named Bill Sullivan, excuse me, and

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Speaker 1: he and um. He describes a scene where he's sitting

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Speaker 1: down with John Dean about you know, coordination some FBI

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Speaker 1: activity to coincide with Nixon's enemy list, et cetera. And

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Speaker 1: John Deane said, well, I bet you the Kennedy's used

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Speaker 1: you guys a lot. And Sullivan's response was that, no,

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Speaker 1: the Kennedy's kind of kept us a arm let. There

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Speaker 1: was his antagonism between you know, mister hoo from President Kennedy. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and they never used us for very many things. And

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Speaker 1: then John Deane looked a him and said, well, what

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Speaker 1: about the JO He said, how does it? How do

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Speaker 1: we rate in relation to other administrations? And Sullivan looked

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Speaker 1: at him and said, compared to the Johnson administration you're

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Speaker 1: used to, the FBI is spartan. Well, I've had we

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Speaker 1: had some number of guests on tonight, Paul talking about

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Speaker 1: their various theories, and one, of course is convinced that

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Speaker 1: the Secret Service is culpable, primarily negligent, but he does

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Speaker 1: believe that they had several agents that might have been

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Speaker 1: involved in this. What do you think. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that and only to to poo poo somebody's research. But

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Speaker 1: I you know, when you say culpability of the Secret Service,

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Speaker 1: I mean you have to look back in the fact

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Speaker 1: that Secret Service was founded in eighteen sixty five. They

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Speaker 1: didn't take over presidential protection until nineteen oh one, So

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Speaker 1: from nineteen o one to nineteen sixty three, Presidential Protection

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Speaker 1: was really in its infancy. Originally, when it was started,

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Speaker 1: there were eight guys on the Presidential Protection Detail. There

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Speaker 1: were thirty two on the Presidential Protection Detail in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty three. There's over three hundred on the detail now, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you know they weren't quite put They

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Speaker 1: were put into a protective role, but not into a

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Speaker 1: into a into a proactive anticipatory role that we have

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Speaker 1: right now. So I think part of that, as the

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Speaker 1: national is the natural evolution um of an agency. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I have I have a copy of the duty roster

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Speaker 1: for for November twenty second, nineteen sixty three. There's only

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Speaker 1: twenty nine agents in Dallas. That's it. That's it, including

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Speaker 1: the Vice President's detail, the President's detail, the first Lady's detail. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I think they were listening to a dozen in

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Speaker 1: the uh in the motorcade. You know, some people were

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Speaker 1: still at love Field securing your force ones, all right,

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Speaker 1: and only only a couple around the president. I'll be

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Speaker 1: real handful. And I think what you're um guests might

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Speaker 1: have been alluding to is there were a number of

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Speaker 1: witnesses that ran towards the grass, you know, after the

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Speaker 1: fatal ship, and there are a lot of claims that

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Speaker 1: they were. They were confronted by men and business suits

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Speaker 1: identifying themselves as Secret Service agents, and even a couple

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Speaker 1: of the police officers you know, testified that secret Service

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Speaker 1: agents were, you know, on the Grassy Hill. But the

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Speaker 1: Judy roster doesn't list any Secret Service agents as signed

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Speaker 1: to that area. And I was wondering, Okay, who could

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Speaker 1: these guys in the dark suits brandishing the credentials be.

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Speaker 1: And I remember, back when I was in college, I

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Speaker 1: had read G. Gordon Liddy's autobiography Will and I remembered

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Speaker 1: a passage in there about him getting Treasury credentials so

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Speaker 1: that he could carry legal in Washington. D C. Trugged

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Speaker 1: out my copy of the book, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: reread that section and one of the offices in Treasury

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Speaker 1: HQ used to keep treasury badges and blank you know,

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Speaker 1: credential inserts in the office and basically who you know, Hoover.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Liddy dummied up a memo put in this file.

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Speaker 1: He was issued with Treasury credentials and he became a

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Speaker 1: Treasury agent. And then he says it was odd that

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Speaker 1: they kept those there, but you have to remember what

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Speaker 1: it was for, and those were for CIA agents because

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Speaker 1: the CIA, they are statutory mandate, is for foreign intelligence

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Speaker 1: and work in foreign surveillance. They had very very little

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Speaker 1: power of the US although they were engaged in a

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Speaker 1: lot of domestic activities. And all that had to happen

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Speaker 1: is that the CIA headquarters would have to send a

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Speaker 1: request to the under Secretary for Administration and Finance, a

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Speaker 1: set of credentials were issues in whatever name they asked,

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Speaker 1: and then CIA officers suddenly became Treasury officers. So if

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Speaker 1: you look at it, so if you like the whole

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Speaker 1: CIA angle on the assassination, it makes perfect sense that

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Speaker 1: the guys in the dock suits brandishing the credential, the

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Speaker 1: Treasure depowerment credentials, were actually CIA officers. And we know

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Speaker 1: that in nineteen sixty three the US Secret Service was

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Speaker 1: part of part of the Department of the Treasury, So

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Speaker 1: it's easy for someone to infer treasury credentials being Secret Service.

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Speaker 1: But again, twenty nine agents on duty, nobody on duty

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Speaker 1: and daily play. As a matter of fact, the first

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Speaker 1: Secret Service agent, what would you call it, negligence, stupidity,

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Speaker 1: what was that? And the car was uncovered, Kyle was uncovered,

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Speaker 1: Which was which was President Kennedy's uh, you know choice

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Speaker 1: at the time, I am very very reluctant to call

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Speaker 1: it stupidity or negligence. I think they had a set

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Speaker 1: of procedures. I don't think that the protective procedures had

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Speaker 1: matured to the level that we see today. Now let

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Speaker 1: me ask you. You know, we're all talking about, and

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Speaker 1: we have for years, the Zapruder film, but you talk

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Speaker 1: about something called the Orville Knicks in that film, tell

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Speaker 1: us about Orville Nicks. For sure. Nicks was, um, this

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Speaker 1: really interesting gentleman. He was an HVAC repairman for the

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Speaker 1: General Services Administration, and he had gone to daily plans

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Speaker 1: in that day with his new movie camera, uh to

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Speaker 1: to to photograph the presidential motorcase, to photograph the president.

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Speaker 1: And there's a great version, and there's all kinds of

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Speaker 1: controversy as to whether the film was altered before it

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Speaker 1: was returned to him or not. But there's a great

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Speaker 1: piece of a piece of film available on YouTube, and

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Speaker 1: it's the Orville Knicks film shown at twenty five at

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Speaker 1: one quarter speed, twenty five percent speed, and if you

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Speaker 1: watch the film very carefully, and and and he was

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Speaker 1: photographing from across the street from where Abraham's a Pruder was.

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Speaker 1: So if you look at Abraham's a Pruder and his film,

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Speaker 1: you see at frame three to thirteen is the fatal shot.

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Speaker 1: And as though the fatal shot comes from the front

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Speaker 1: right hand side of the president, impacts him on the

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Speaker 1: front right hand side of his head. But then if

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Speaker 1: you watch the Orville Knicks film at twenty five percent speed,

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Speaker 1: what you see is this pink cloud at the front

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Speaker 1: of his head. And then it appears as though the

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Speaker 1: cloud it's due to the emotion of the limousine. The

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Speaker 1: cloud just moves back to his head and then dissipates,

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Speaker 1: and you can see a small chunk of something coming

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Speaker 1: off which appears to be a portion of the president's skull.

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Speaker 1: And it's just that, taken in conjunction with the with

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Speaker 1: the z Repruter film, would more tend to indicate a

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Speaker 1: shot coming from the front. But you know, it's independent

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Speaker 1: validation of the of the z Repruter film. But it's

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Speaker 1: actually a much better angle. And when you see that cloud,

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Speaker 1: it is absolutely the most amazing piece of photography I've

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Speaker 1: ever seen. What do you think the cloud is gun smoke. No,

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Speaker 1: the cloud is basically when the skull is very dense,

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Speaker 1: when when when a bullet enters the skull, uh, it

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Speaker 1: displaces the material that's there already, Okay, skin at the outside, bone,

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Speaker 1: cerebral fluid, blood, et cetera. And that displaced material has

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Speaker 1: no place to go until there's an exit wound. So

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Speaker 1: in that fraction of a second when the bullet enters

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Speaker 1: the skull, all of that material gets extrudes from the

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Speaker 1: entry wound until there's an exit wound, and then then

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Speaker 1: then and then any displaced material goes So in JFK

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Speaker 1: it would go out the back. So it's like it's

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Speaker 1: like the remnants of when you drill into wood. Sure

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Speaker 1: that I mean they call a blowback, but that's exactly

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Speaker 1: what happens. So if you see frame three thirteen of

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Speaker 1: the Approuter film, it's clear that there's a head shot.

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Speaker 1: If you couple that with the Orville Knicks film, there's

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Speaker 1: no other conclusion that you can come to other than

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Speaker 1: the fact that the bullet came from the front. Right,

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Speaker 1: Are you convinced Paul that one there was a conspiracy

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Speaker 1: and two there were more than one shooter? There at

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Speaker 1: the time, they would have to be more than one

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Speaker 1: shooter for that for the for the for the bullet

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Speaker 1: wound to enter President Kennedy's skull in the front rate

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Speaker 1: would seem in the front rate would seemed to indicate

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Speaker 1: a shooter coming from in front of President Kennedy. And

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Speaker 1: as they started to say that, a Secret Service agent

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Speaker 1: gentleman named Floris Sorrels, who was head of the down

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Speaker 1: with Secret Service office, was in the was in the

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Speaker 1: league car his test his statements clearly indicate that the

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Speaker 1: bullet came from slightly behind him and to the right,

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Speaker 1: which is consistent with a bullet, you know, with a

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Speaker 1: shot coming from the grassy knoll. And then they bring

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Speaker 1: Farmer Sorrows into the Warren Commission and they do not

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Speaker 1: ask him one question about where the bullet came from.

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Speaker 1: They questioned him about how Oswald was held in custody,

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Speaker 1: what would the security measures, etc. So you had one

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Speaker 1: of the most believable, most experienced witnesses on the scene

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Speaker 1: and they don't ask him any questions about where the

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Speaker 1: shot originated. Why not they were so wedded to the

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Speaker 1: magic bullet theory. Listen to more Coast to coast AM

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Speaker 1: every weeknight at one am Eastern and go to Coast

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Speaker 1: to coast am dot com for more