Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast, am on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast, George Nori with you.
Speaker 2: Paul Smith Back with Us. Served for seven years in
Speaker 2: the government's Stargate Remote Viewing Psychic Espionage program at Fort Mead, Maryland,
Speaker 2: Major US Army retired and is one of the only
Speaker 2: five Army personnel to be personally trained to coordinate remote
Speaker 2: viewing by doctor hal put Off and the late INGOs
Speaker 2: Swan at SRI International. Besides being an operational remote viewer,
Speaker 2: he was the primary author of the Military CRV Training
Speaker 2: Manual served as a theory instructor for the new CRV
Speaker 2: Traine Personnel. A desert storm veteran, Paul retired from the
Speaker 2: Army in ninety six founded Remote Viewing Instructental Services, which
Speaker 2: offers full service remote viewing training. He continues to write
Speaker 2: teach consultant lecture in the remote viewing field. A couple
Speaker 2: of his books include The Essential Guide Remote Viewing and
Speaker 2: Reading the Enemy's Mind And PAULA was great seeing you
Speaker 2: at contact in the desert.
Speaker 3: That was fun, wasn't it?
Speaker 2: It really was? You moved. I hear you're in Utah.
Speaker 3: Now, yes, yep, it's a lot cooler up here than
Speaker 3: it was in Austin.
Speaker 2: Did you remote view it before you moved.
Speaker 3: No, I used to drive through here when I was
Speaker 3: on my way to college.
Speaker 2: Well that's great.
Speaker 3: How have you been, well, I'd say, fine. I'm right
Speaker 3: now sitting in a recliner with ice pack on my
Speaker 3: hip where I just had a hip replacement replacement.
Speaker 2: Oh you did, what happened?
Speaker 3: Well? The first hip replacement I had back in Austin
Speaker 3: almost eleven years ago. Now, it turned out was made
Speaker 3: of some bad materials. I ended up with a bunch
Speaker 3: of cobalts in my system. Oh yeah, so they had
Speaker 3: to replace it almost three weeks ago. And I'll tell you,
Speaker 3: I already feel way better than I was feeling even
Speaker 3: right there when I was in contact. You know, this
Speaker 3: was before the surgery, but I knew it was coming up,
Speaker 3: and I still managed to talk to my doctors and
Speaker 3: to let me come.
Speaker 2: Truly remarkable what they can do now with human parts
Speaker 2: in artificial prestiges and stuff like that. I know a
Speaker 2: guy who owns a company that makes arms and limbs
Speaker 2: and legs, and he said, it's truly remarkable. It's digital now,
Speaker 2: where computers even control your movements.
Speaker 3: You know that is a miracle. I mean, if you
Speaker 3: think fifty years ago what we couldn't do and how
Speaker 3: miserable life was then, but most people didn't realize how
Speaker 3: miserable it was in comparison to what it could be.
Speaker 3: And nice, it's nice that we've made progress.
Speaker 2: Well, tell us how you got involved with roroaldioing.
Speaker 3: Well. I was an Army intelligence officer and after a
Speaker 3: tour in Germany, I got stationed at Fort met Maryland
Speaker 3: to be a spy, so to speak. And at the
Speaker 3: time I'd never put the words remote and viewing together.
Speaker 3: I'd never heard of it. Most people hadn't, but I
Speaker 3: was lucky enough to move in. They assigned me quarters
Speaker 3: right next door to skip out Water, it turned out,
Speaker 3: was the training and operations officer for the Remote VIEWNI unit,
Speaker 3: and across the street from Tom McNair, who was at
Speaker 3: that time being trained by Ingo Swan. I had no
Speaker 3: idea what they did, but I also had no idea.
Speaker 3: They were kind of keeping their eye on me because
Speaker 3: they were looking for new remote viewer candidates. And one
Speaker 3: day they came to my door and said, hey, we
Speaker 3: think you might be good to what we do. And
Speaker 3: I said, well what do you do? And they said,
Speaker 3: we can't tell you. And I said, I've got all
Speaker 3: the clernches you can get almost and you can't tell
Speaker 3: me Nope. I said, well, how do you know if
Speaker 3: I'd be good at it or not? They said, we're
Speaker 3: going to give you some task, but we think you'll
Speaker 3: do all right. And you know, and apparently I passed
Speaker 3: because they took me over and sat me down and
Speaker 3: read me onto the remote viewing program and asked you
Speaker 3: if I wanted to volunteer, and I absolutely wanted to volunteer.
Speaker 3: It sounded like the most exciting thing I've heard in
Speaker 3: a long time.
Speaker 2: Tell people what remote viewing is, Paul.
Speaker 3: Remote Viewing is actually a skill that one can develop.
Speaker 3: It's based on an underlying ability everybody's got. Everybody can
Speaker 3: you know? People say, well, you have to have a
Speaker 3: gift to be psychic, and the truth is, yes, you do.
Speaker 3: But everybody has that gift. We're born with it, but
Speaker 3: we oftentimes don't know how to use it. Remote Viewing
Speaker 3: is a way of teaching you how to use it
Speaker 3: and then helping give structure and discipline to the process,
Speaker 3: so you increase your accuracy and your reliability. So it's
Speaker 3: kind of like I like to I'd like to say it,
Speaker 3: it's like controlled or discipline clear lands.
Speaker 2: And at what point did you meet Ingo Swan, the
Speaker 2: late Ingo Swan.
Speaker 3: So I was brought into the unit on the first
Speaker 3: of August nineteen eighty three, and they kept telling me
Speaker 3: stories that you know, come January, you're going to go
Speaker 3: through your training and you're going to meet Ingo Swan
Speaker 3: and he's going to scare you to death. He kept
Speaker 3: talking about how strict he was and how he didn't
Speaker 3: brook any nonsense, and you better have all your ducks
Speaker 3: in a row and do exactly what he says or
Speaker 3: things won't go comfortably for you. And so when it
Speaker 3: came time to meet him, I got off the plane
Speaker 3: in San franciscoing and drove down to Mental Park to
Speaker 3: SRI International and we went to lunch with Ingo Swan
Speaker 3: and he was wearing tweet jacket and harness boots and
Speaker 3: Levi's and he was very friendly and very engaging and
Speaker 3: very interesting and it wasn't at all like I had expected.
Speaker 2: That came later truly remarkable. How did he get involved
Speaker 2: in remote viewing in the first place.
Speaker 3: Ingo, Yeah, Ingo invented remote viewing.
Speaker 2: He was the guy.
Speaker 3: He was the guy. He is the father of remote viewing.
Speaker 3: Sometimes he preferred the term grandfather, but he was the
Speaker 3: father of remote viewing. He was the one that came
Speaker 3: up with the idea for the protocol, and he's the
Speaker 3: one that ultimately developed the most, the most grounded and
Speaker 3: prevalent method of remote viewing. And other people sometimes get
Speaker 3: given credit for it. In fact, I was reading a
Speaker 3: document the other day that said that hal put Off
Speaker 3: an Ingo Swan who I mean, sorry, Hal put off
Speaker 3: In Russell Tark who truly deserved a lot of credit.
Speaker 3: But it said that they invented And of course that
Speaker 3: wasn't true at all, and neither one of them would
Speaker 3: have would have claimed to have invented it. They all
Speaker 3: knew that Ingoswan was the one that came up with
Speaker 3: the whole notion of remote hearing.
Speaker 2: My late aunt, doctor Shoshika cor Regula new Ingo. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and they were very close.
Speaker 3: Yes, well, she was an amazing woman.
Speaker 2: Yeah she was.
Speaker 3: I've got her book, Breakthrough the Creativity, But George, I
Speaker 3: have to ask your forgiveness. I haven't yet read it.
Speaker 2: How long have you had it? It's about forty years old.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I didn't get it back there. I've got it
Speaker 3: more recently. In fact, I got it on your recommendation
Speaker 3: a few years back.
Speaker 2: When you were on the show. I think I remember.
Speaker 3: Saying, yeah, you brought that book up, and I said,
Speaker 3: I've got to get it.
Speaker 2: So in one of Ingo's books he makes mention of
Speaker 2: my aunt. He was really something else. He was one
Speaker 2: of you guys. Was he a fun guy to be around?
Speaker 3: He could be very fun. Yeah, he could very very fun.
Speaker 3: It turned out he could be very strict too, and
Speaker 3: demanding and he didn't did not brook any nonsense. But
Speaker 3: there were times, you know, we went For example, he
Speaker 3: loved to go to what he called training films. So
Speaker 3: we'd worked pretty hard on the remote viewing process, and
Speaker 3: then in the afternoon he'd say, we need to go
Speaker 3: to a training film, and so we saw First Run
Speaker 3: the Terminator, Firestarter, go on Blanket on the name of
Speaker 3: that one read Dawn. He enjoyed going and seeing a
Speaker 3: film right now, and then as a oh, Ghostbusters, I
Speaker 3: can't leave Ghostbusters outters huh oh, yeah, yeah, we went
Speaker 3: to that show in Midtown Manhattan, theater in Midtown Manhattan,
Speaker 3: and when we left the theater there was somebody selling
Speaker 3: Ghostbuster T shirts on the sidewalk, and so we all
Speaker 3: had to get one.
Speaker 2: Now, I'm sure people practiced remote viewing before it was
Speaker 2: officially called that, right.
Speaker 3: Well, certainly there were similar things that people did. People
Speaker 3: talked about Shawmans did some kind of remote viewing, and
Speaker 3: they talked about traveling. Clairvoyance is essentially being another name
Speaker 3: for remote viewing and so on. But in fact there
Speaker 3: are a few distinctions between the two. And people getting
Speaker 3: arguments all the time about this, you know, is it
Speaker 3: really anything different? And the way you can go originally
Speaker 3: proposed the protocol, So we have to talk about two
Speaker 3: different things. One is method, which is what you do
Speaker 3: when you're doing remote viewing. The other's protocol, and that's
Speaker 3: the conditions under which you do remote viewing. So it's scientific.
Speaker 3: It's a very scientific based thing. And he had a
Speaker 3: number of different experimental paradigms that you followed recipes essentially
Speaker 3: to uh to how what you did to make it
Speaker 3: remote hearing, and those are distinctly different from any other
Speaker 3: psychic or esp based discipline.
Speaker 2: Was he born with his gift?
Speaker 3: Well, remember what I said, everybody's born with it, but yeah,
Speaker 3: he developed it himself. He didn't. He didn't get taught
Speaker 3: of that although. So he was born in tell you Ride, Colorado.
Speaker 3: He was a Westerner, and he was born in tell
Speaker 3: you Write, Colorado, and then he grew up in Utah,
Speaker 3: which is the state I live in now. He spent
Speaker 3: his teenagers, teenage and young adult years here and went
Speaker 3: to college in in Salt Lake at Westminster College. And
Speaker 3: uh and uh. So he was a Westerner, but he
Speaker 3: was born in in uh intel your Ride, and he
Speaker 3: lived with his maternal grandmother and his parents, and he
Speaker 3: kept having these things, which he later learned were out
Speaker 3: of body experiences, and he'd report them, and his mom,
Speaker 3: who didn't want to believe in any of that stuff,
Speaker 3: kind of shutting down. But his grandmother had had similar
Speaker 3: experiences and she encouraged him. So he started off having
Speaker 3: these out of boudy experiences. And later on, after he
Speaker 3: had gone to college and spent three years in the
Speaker 3: army in Korea and then moved to New York, where
Speaker 3: he wanted to establish himself as an artist. He had
Speaker 3: to have a day job, and so he was working
Speaker 3: as a admin assistant at the UN the United Nations.
Speaker 3: While I was there, he got involved in some scientific
Speaker 3: research at the City College of New York and the
Speaker 3: American Society Cyclical Research, where academics were studying ESP type phenomena,
Speaker 3: and one of them he mentioned that he'd had out
Speaker 3: of Boudy experiences, and so that's how he got in
Speaker 3: on that. Carlsosis, who was running the aspr's program researching
Speaker 3: out of out experiences, recruited EGO for that, and that's
Speaker 3: how he got into the actual scientific research field involving parapsychology.
Speaker 2: So he was psychically inclined from the get go, wasn't
Speaker 2: he He.
Speaker 3: Was pretty much you know, how early did it start,
Speaker 3: I don't know, but certainly by the time he was,
Speaker 3: you know, maybe four or five, he was certainly having experiences.
Speaker 2: Did the government develop its remote viewing program to augment
Speaker 2: what the Soviets were doing? Who came first?
Speaker 3: Well? That sounds like a Lauren Hardy routine, doesn't it,
Speaker 3: he does, Well, that's an interesting story. So by most
Speaker 3: accounts of the United States, United States came first, but
Speaker 3: didn't know it had come first. And you say, what
Speaker 3: what does that mean? Well, there was a story in
Speaker 3: one of the major news magazines about a psychic experiment
Speaker 3: involving the USS Nouveilus, which of course was the first
Speaker 3: nuclear submarine that the United States was undertook to establish
Speaker 3: communications with submarines when they were submerged under the ice
Speaker 3: cap or whatever. And it turned out that that story
Speaker 3: probably wasn't true. But the Russians the Soviets heard about it.
Speaker 3: They believed it scared to be Jesus out of them,
Speaker 3: because if we could do that, then we had a
Speaker 3: major advantage over them, right, So they started experimenting with
Speaker 3: this stuff, and of course there were there were other
Speaker 3: h what we would call paranormal phenomena that they had
Speaker 3: pursued also, and they had a major program in this.
Speaker 3: They were spending one hundred million dollars two hundred million
Speaker 3: dollars a whack on what we would call paranormal research,
Speaker 3: which is interesting because that puts into perspective one of
Speaker 3: the criticisms of the US program. You get a lot
Speaker 3: of the skeptics out there say, you guys wasted so
Speaker 3: much money on researching esp. Twenty twenty five million dollars. Well,
Speaker 3: the Russians are spending hundreds of millions of dollars, and
Speaker 3: if you think about it, one F thirty five costs
Speaker 3: about I think they're down to about thirty five million. Now,
Speaker 3: one F thirty five fighter costs more than all the
Speaker 3: money that the US government put into ESPU research over
Speaker 3: more than a over a back quarter of a century work.
Speaker 3: It's just kind of mind boggling anyway. Yeah, so the
Speaker 3: Russians threw a whole lot of money into this, and
Speaker 3: the CIA, not realizing what had happened, suddenly discovered that
Speaker 3: they were doing a lot of research into these fields.
Speaker 3: And of course the CIA didn't necessarily believe it at all.
Speaker 3: There were some folks there who found it interesting, but
Speaker 3: their job is to go out and research stuff and
Speaker 3: find out about stuff that could hurt United States security.
Speaker 3: And if the Russians are spending a lot of money
Speaker 3: on this kind of thing, they must have had a reason.
Speaker 3: And so the CIA was obligated to look into it.
Speaker 3: And so that's kind of how this thing got off
Speaker 3: the ground in the first place.
Speaker 2: What kind of hits did your program develop and what
Speaker 2: kind of hits do you think the Russians got?
Speaker 3: You know, I can't speak to the Russians as far
Speaker 3: as I know none of the data from any of
Speaker 3: their you know, in terms of any of their remote
Speaker 3: viewing attempts that has been released now as far as
Speaker 3: I know now, the real expert on that is a
Speaker 3: may and he's had a couple of exchange visits with
Speaker 3: them and has talked about some of the recent stuff
Speaker 3: they've been doing. But I haven't heard him say anything
Speaker 3: about what they accomplished, and they may well be close
Speaker 3: lipped about that because they don't want us know all
Speaker 3: their secrets even now, especially now those things have turned
Speaker 3: around there obviously, But with us, we've had some had
Speaker 3: some really good successes. Now, I'm always quick to say
Speaker 3: it doesn't always work. You hear all the stories about
Speaker 3: how successful was. You don't hear the stories about circumstances
Speaker 3: or situations or projects where it failed. It's it did,
Speaker 3: it did, But we did have some really noted successes.
Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at
Speaker 1: one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam
Speaker 1: dot com for more