WEBVTT - Ep. 30: Colorado Elk and Calling Tactics with Jermaine Hodge 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.320 What's up, everybody. This is Dirk Durham here. I'm filling 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.920 in as a guest host for Jason Phelps on this 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:23.160 episode of Cutting the Destance podcast. We've got world champion 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:28.360 Colorado native Elk Hunter, Elk Collar, Jermaine Hodge, a long 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.760 time friend, just a good dude and funny man. I 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.320 wanted to have him on here and talk about something 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.880 that's on people's mind all the time, Colorado el Cutting. Yeah, 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:45.720 thanks Dirk for having the r. Jermain, can you tell 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.440 us a little bit, a little bit about yourself, Yeah, 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:51.440 a little bit about myself. I'm reasonably from North Carolina 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:56.040 and uh, I didn't move out to Colorado into two 0:00:56.120 --> 0:01:00.680 thousand five. Kind of going back. I came into Army 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:03.440 in two thousand and four and then I got the 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:07.400 chance to make the world Class Athlete program for the Army, 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.600 and um, once I did and I made the team, 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.880 I got stationed out here in Colorado because once again, 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:16.880 you know, Olympic training centers here and most of all 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:21.080 the athletes trained here for particular sports anyways, wrestling being 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.120 one of them. And then when I came out in 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:27.200 two thousand five, UM, some of my team members were 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.039 big hunters and and they kind of introduced me to 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.360 elk um and I missed that first draw. And then 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:36.120 I started hunting elk in two thousand and six. But 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.080 my journey wasn't uh, it wasn't as good as you 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:42.039 think it is. I mean, you know, you go, you 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:44.399 go through that first season and it's it's always a struggle. 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:46.760 But I was fortunate enough to kill my first self 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:49.200 in two thousand and six, and I've just been uh, 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:51.960 I've been on a rolls ever since. But self taught 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.560 how to call myself and watched a bunch of videos 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.120 and here we are. I'm on the phone right now 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:02.280 with their home the Bugler. So um, I've been I've 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.680 been fortunate enough to be successful and uh and and 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.880 now I'm teaching what I've learned promote you know, all 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.200 the years of you know, getting elkin and having encounters 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:16.680 year and year out. So that's just a little bit 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:18.679 about myself. I'll go into a long story, but it 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.360 would be a deep point. I won't I won't side 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:24.280 derailist too much here, but I didn't want to touch 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:28.680 on like, Okay, you mentioned um your job a little bit. 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.600 What's your job and what took you there. Um you 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:37.880 said wrestling. Um, how did how's wrestling incorporate to the army? Yeah, so, 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:44.600 you know, back back way before my time, they they 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:50.400 found the value of awarding soldiers the opportunity to make 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.960 world and Olympic teams, and then they found the value 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:58.800 of kind of utilizing those soldier athletes for more of 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:03.760 a recruit in aspect. So now that we have soldier 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:06.640 athletes in the army, we can utilize them on the 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:11.480 army side to bring him more UH elite soldiers and 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:15.000 also award them the opportunity to make an Olympic team 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.120 and bring home in Olympic medals. So back in two 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.520 thousand and four, I got stationed in Korea, and I 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.320 thought it was gonna be like into my wrestling career, 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.400 but it was like kind of like a blessing in disguise. 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.799 And while I was over there, I wrestled in two 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:35.000 different tournaments and the Athletic Athletic director was like, you know, 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:37.920 who are you? And I kind of explained to him, 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.680 you know, my background and what I used to do, 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:44.800 and um, he said, well, if you put your papers together, 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:46.240 I'll send it up to you. That's when they used 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:49.000 to fax everything back in the day. Now it's all 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:53.080 computer generated. But once he did that, I got to 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:57.600 try out for them for the World Class Athlete Program. 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:01.560 But that's a sister program called All Army and um, 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.400 so I came to the All Army route I went. 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.720 I came here to Fort Carson, and my whole goals 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:11.320 was to make this team and wrestle for this program. 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:15.560 So anyways, I made the team. Now wrestle for the 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:19.800 World Class Athlete program. But my primary job for the military, 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:21.280 because you still have to have like an M O. 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:25.360 S or uh, you have to be MS qualified. UM. 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:28.680 So my job job for the Army is a sixty 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:32.880 eight whiskey conduct made it on the MC certified. UM. 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:36.200 But I've never really like done that job outside of 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:41.040 outside of here. With the reception of like one year 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.320 of like some o J T at the at the 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.080 e ER working in the e R doing that that 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:50.640 kind of stuff. But no, you know, they brought me 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.040 into the program to wrestle and bring home medals and 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:56.440 international medals and world medals, and and I was fortunate 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.479 enough to to compete on the world stage a few 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:03.160 times in and um bring home medals and stay in 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.480 the program, and uh now I'm coaching. I'm at the 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:08.880 latter part of my season and you know, my career 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.320 and I'm finishing up as a coach, and uh now 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.680 I got to continue to live live their dreams through 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:18.440 me and and help those guys their goals because their 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:21.839 goals and my goals now to as well. Man, that's awesome, 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:27.320 that's awesome. So um, what what a blessing? You know 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:32.200 that you're taken to Colorado and discovered elk hunting. And 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.760 I've said it before, like elk hunting will change your life, right, 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.880 and I'm sure you've seen some big, big swings there, 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:42.800 Like it's such a such a cool opportunity be able 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.760 to hunt elk every fall, go to the mountains. You know, 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.440 everybody has all different agenda why they hunt, but it 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:53.000 seems like it's a really good place to decompress, reset um, 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:57.560 and enjoy get in touch with our primal selves. So um, 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:02.279 absolutely so Colorado. You know, that's that's a real elk 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.920 hunting mecca for a lot of folks. You know, whether 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.480 it's residents you know they've been there their whole lives, 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:13.560 or or new people moving there, or for nonresidents nonresident hunters. 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:18.680 That's a super um destination because Colorado has so many 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:22.000 elk and they have so much over the counter opportunity. 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:24.960 A lot of people go there. Um, but I think 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.400 that kind of creates some challenges, right, Um, lots of 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:32.400 lots of tags, lots of people. Um, how how do 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.680 you get away and make yourself a little different from 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:38.039 all the other other hunters out there? It seems like 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:40.800 a competitive place. You know, I've been to Colorado. There's 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.599 a lot of people hunting, um, a lot of and 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:47.000 it's tough. You know, what what do you do? What? What? 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.320 What do you go into the woods? Within your in 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:53.120 your mind? Um that your plan, your game plan is 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:57.360 to to make sure you stay in elk consistently and 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:00.640 you're not getting picked on by others. You're you know, 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:05.840 have another hunter's disrupt your hunter vice versa. Well, you know, 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:10.440 let's flash back a little bit now. I'll talk about like, uh, 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:14.960 the nonresident opportunities in Colorado is like it's like no 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.880 other and uh you have to kind of contribute it 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:23.720 to the OTC portion of it. So as a nonresident, 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.400 you can come over, you can plan a hunt, you 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:29.800 can kind of pick whatever unit you wanted to go 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:34.400 to not even apply for anything, drive out to Colorado, 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.560 go to Walmart and pick up your tag. And that's 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:40.840 a huge opportunity for non residents. So if your dream 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.560 is to come out and hunt out west and chase 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:45.960 the elk, you probably have a really good chance of 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.840 doing that in Colorado by all means. But um, I 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:53.560 will say this, since I've been you know, hunting elk 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:55.480 and and I've been hunting olk since two thousand and 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.920 six to present, I've seen the numbers to climb dramatically, 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:03.760 whether it was OTC or whether it was draw units. 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.480 And for me, I kind of keep the same game 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:11.040 plan when I go into whatever whatever unit I plan 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.400 on hunting that year, I kind of keep the same 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:17.000 game plan and the mindset of you going to hunt 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:20.200 the way you hunt and not the way other people 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.640 are hunting. So for me, I really I don't have 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:25.880 a problem getting away from people. Now, you'll find a 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.920 few that that can go in and hike in and 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:32.559 get into those deep dark pockets or those areas where 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.600 they may have each scouted and they may they may 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.280 be willing to walk in there. Um, but that's very 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.160 few that might be able to do that. Um, what 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:47.679 I do find myself doing is gravitating away from those 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:52.320 easy to park and walk in spots. And I think 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:56.880 that is my my quick answer to to how do 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:58.959 I get away from them? So I'm not going to 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:01.880 parket trail EDGs and then walk in. I want to 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:05.360 find I'm coming right off the road. Maybe I you know, 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:07.800 drove down this dirt road and at the very end 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:11.280 of that dirt road is a trailhead. Instead of coming 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:15.080 in at that trailhead, I might find myself driving down 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:17.040 that road and then I have to bomb up this 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:20.160 hill to get into a different area than then where 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:23.880 they may be. UM. So I think the aspect of 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:27.760 going places where no one really wants to go or 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:31.120 not many want ago, and then the fact that hey, 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.400 it looks like it might be elk over this way 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:37.160 parking there, and then trying in those different areas. Uh. 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:40.440 I find myself that I don't run into a lot 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:44.079 of hunters into places that I've been, but I've also 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:48.960 hunted into some OTC units where it's tough. You have 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:54.080 thousands of hunters into these particular areas. Uh. What I 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:58.520 try to do is, uh stay away from those trailheads 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:02.240 and find those area is where if they were at 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:07.400 that trailhead, where would they push these elks too? So, um, 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:10.440 good example with you know, a good trailhead goes into 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:13.079 a good basin. If you know you've got four or 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:16.320 five or six hunters that are in that basin, maybe 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:18.800 looking over two more basins to the left or right 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.839 and trying those areas instead of hunting that one basin 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:26.480 that those six or seven hunters are in. Yeah, I 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:29.840 love that. I love that. You know, taking the the 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.720 proverbial road less traveled, you know, get off, get off 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:38.160 trail bush whack out through the brush trees, you know, 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.720 go hike through the more difficult places. If it's hard 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:43.920 for a person to get there, that will probably weed 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:45.679 out a lot of your a lot of your other 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.640 fellow hunters. Um there, maybe you know they're not good 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.679 enough shape, or maybe they're not confident on their navigation 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.760 abilities to go to those kind of places. So that's 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:59.640 absolutely that's some good insight there. Um. Now with that mind, 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.240 all these ol you know, some of them can probably 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:05.160 be pushed into those spots, those little pockets, those off 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.680 the you know, out of out of mind, out of 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.120 out of sight, out of mind, type pockets. Um, but 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:13.120 they've been messed with a little bit a lot of times. 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.760 How how are you calling? How are you gonna? Is 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:20.040 your calling effective? Um? To those those up have been 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:22.839 pressured a little bit, Um, are you doing something a 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:25.760 little different than maybe you know what's your secret here 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:31.720 your secrets house? Yeah, so you know I can Well, 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:33.839 let's let's start with like an O T C unit 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:38.760 for Colorado. Um, I go through phases throughout the season 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:43.000 of September, and uh, I'm fortunate enough to be able 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:48.120 to take all of September off, so I can really like, 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.079 like nick pick or what these are really going to 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:54.280 respond to? So for me, you know, in an O 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:58.080 T C unit, let's say at the very beginning, uh, 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.320 you know, a nonresident, probably not all of them are 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:03.240 gonna come out here for thirty days. They're probably gonna 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.199 come out here for about ten days, maybe ten to 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:08.960 twelve days, I don't know. But most most of all 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:12.360 the ones that I've known and I've run into, they 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:14.720 do about a teen day hunt and not a lot 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.640 of shoes to pick. The very beginning of season. They 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.880 want to come in its prime rut activity, so they 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:26.720 usually picking that mean to end September, and so at 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:29.559 the very beginning of September, I like to try to 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:33.080 to stick with my guns no matter what unit I'm in, UM. 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.360 But I do find it a little different when it 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:38.080 comes to OTC units. So when I'm at the very 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:40.360 beginning of September used to be like the end of 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:44.319 August in the September, but now they have it in September, 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.600 the very beginning of sept seasons. At in September, what 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:50.240 I like to try to do is I'm move into 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.960 those different areas that that I think or hold milk, 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.800 and I use a lot more bugles than I do 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:02.480 cow sounds. UM. Not that I'm not using cow sounds. 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:04.559 I'm just more heavy on the bugle side of it. 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.160 And if it has more to do with the phase 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.480 of the r like I'm I'm introducing a bull that's 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:16.280 at this playground and they've never heard him before, if 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:19.320 that makes kind of sense. And then then when we 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:26.160 get towards like that September tenth to mid September, I started, 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.040 I try to mix in a combination of both of 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:32.560 the bugles in cow sounds. So I'm I'm not so 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.280 much heavy on the bugle side I'm more in the 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.240 middle of using both sides of the aspect, and then 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:42.320 towards the latter part of the season, towards the end 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:47.080 of September, I'm heavy, heavy on cow sounds, and that's 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.760 been effective for me anywhere I've been, whether it's OTC 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:55.080 units or UM over the I mean drawing units. Now, 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.800 I will say this is when you you get those 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:00.640 O T C units and you get a lot of 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.200 hunters out there, thousands and seven hundred in one particular unit, 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.920 they've heard everything from dub flute to some of the 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.920 best colors in the woods, and they could distinguish, believe 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.840 it or not, they can distinguish a good sounding elk 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:20.920 versus a person. And after being blown at by maybe 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.720 one of those power bugle tubes or something, they've been 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:27.320 blown that hundreds of times with this tube, and they've 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:29.760 been fooled and they've been called in. They wise up 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:34.840 really quick, especially throughout the month of September. So what 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.440 I do find that it's more effect of that in 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.200 an O T C unit. For myself, you know, I'm 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:44.280 speaking just for myself when I when I find that 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.720 seven hundred to a thousand hundreds in the unit, And 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:53.000 I know everybody's in their calling. What I find best 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.160 moving as close as possible to that that bugling bull 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:02.080 or that herd, and I use cow sounds, quality, good 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:06.920 cow sounds. Now from trying to kill a rag horn 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.520 bull or a satellite bull, that right there is a factor. 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:14.040 And most of the time those bulls are coming quiet. 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.800 You'll hear that herd bull, he'll be chirping and going 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:22.360 absolutely nuts. And a lot of times when you're using 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:26.640 those cow sounds, that bull might have some satellites with them, 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.080 and them satellites to come in, they're come in quiet. 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:31.560 I might only be four dred yards from that herd, 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.840 but when I use that cow sound, it'll pull a 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.080 satellite bull in. And believe it or not, there's a 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:39.480 lot of big satellites out theater. And and for a 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.680 non resident that's coming from, uh, you know, a state 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.600 like Colorado, that might be a really effective way to 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.960 kill a bull. But um, going back to what I said, 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.400 I really don't try to change anything. Whether you're over 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:55.840 the counter unit or or a draw unit, I use it. 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:59.880 I use my calls throughout the season of September based 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.400 off right activities, so heavy on the bogle sales. At 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:07.040 the very beginning of the season, mid mid month, I 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:10.000 go make some both, and then towards the end of season, 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.920 I use a lot of cow stems. Man, I couldn't 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:15.520 agree more with what you said. Those are some really 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:19.320 really good, insightful tactics, and I agree like that early 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:21.240 season and I feel like this is something our our 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:25.280 listeners really need to kind of key into. UM. I 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:27.080 do a lot of seminars. You do a lot of 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:29.080 seminars every year, and a lot of folks, you know, 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.000 they're like, hey, that early season stuff, you know, should 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.520 I just be blown a calcool? I feel like there's 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.920 like some information or out there, or maybe they just 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:41.560 this conception that um that the idea of like only 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.560 because bulls aren't hot and and running super hard, they're 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:47.280 not gonna want to answer a bugle or come to 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.440 a bugle in that early part of step let's say 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.680 the first week of September. But at that point, you 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.760 know they're not you know, they can be breeding, but 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.160 a lot of times they're still work they're just on 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.400 the edge of that rut and they're still working out 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:03.000 a little bit of that pecking order, and like, like 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:04.960 what you said, They're like, hey, who's that new guy 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.840 in town? You know, I've had bulls come in out 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:11.879 of curiosity. They wouldn't they wouldn't answer a cal call early. 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.520 But man, you bugle at them, they would come in 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:18.399 and they wouldn't get super mad, they wouldn't get wound up, 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:20.399 you know, like they do later in the month. But 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:22.600 they would bugle steady and they would come in and 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:24.920 it's like, hey, who is this guy? Who's this new 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:28.040 guy over here? Hey? Jack, what who are you? And Uh, 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.080 I've I've had that work time and time again, and 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:33.879 so I feel like, you know, the idea of just 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:35.800 going out and be like, oh yeah, early season, I 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.520 should you know that September one to the the fifth 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:43.080 or whatever, I should only blow cal calls. I just don't. 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.960 For me, it's just never really worked that good. Um. 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:51.160 I actually I get more success with bugling. So um, 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:57.280 that's a that's a great takeaway German. Yeah, I I 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.200 could argue this, you know, year and a year out 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:04.960 you'll hear, you know, new hunters. I'd say, primarily new hunters, 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.760 and they'd be like, you're bugling too much. No, there's 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.919 no such thing. If there's a bull in there that 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:16.000 wants to play, he will answer. And I find it 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:20.439 very very intriguing that when you introducible early in the 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.800 season to an area that that bull or those bulls 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:27.120 have been hanging out, they are curious to see who 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:30.280 the heck the new guy is. Yeah, and they and 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.520 they will come in Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Hey, let me 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:37.159 let me ask you this. So there's a lot of 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:42.680 new hunters out there, new callers, and what's your take? 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:45.639 Do you have to sound how authentic? Do you have 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.719 to sound like an ELK? I mean, can you just 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.760 get a any kind of an ELK call and go 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:55.240 out and blow it with you know, just a little 0:18:55.240 --> 0:19:00.399 bit of you know, talent or should they sound you know, 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.560 practice what they're calls and try to sound as authentic 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:05.960 and sound as much like an ELK as possible. What 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:10.560 do you think that makes a difference. It's absolutely huge. Days. 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:12.560 Let's go back to like kind of where I was 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:16.560 talking about the OTC units, the heavily hunted units. Now 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.640 you can take a brand new caller that just learned 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.440 how to call, and put him in an O T 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:26.840 C unit that's heavily hunted, and yes, he somewhat sounds 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.240 like an ELK and uh, and he probably gets one 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:34.680 encounter uh throughout his season in the O t C unit. 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.880 But then you take someone that is a seasoned ELK 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.200 caller and he's very good and he sounds very realistic, 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:44.480 and you put him in that O t C unit, 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.040 he's gonna he or she's gonna have way more encounters 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.640 than the person that just talked themselves how to call. 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.240 Versus the guy that uh you know, goes out there, 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:57.800 stops at Walmart or wherever it picks up a call, 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.199 sounds somewhat like an ELK and goes out and he 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.200 only gets one encounter, versus the guy that guya gao 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:05.760 that goes out and they practice hearing you out and 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:10.879 they sound realistic. You'll find yourself, You'll find yourself separating 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:15.919 your yourself from from just the random hunters versus the 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:17.840 hunters that kind of get it done year in the 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.439 year out, or they find themselves in ELK all the time. No, 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.080 you don't have to sound like, you know, spitting image 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:30.159 of the giant bull in the playground, but it helps 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:35.360 out dramatically if you do sound more realistic than your 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:39.359 counterparts that are still hunting the same area. Um, but 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:42.879 once again, you know, you can stop at Walmart and 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.680 pick up a call, or stop at your local archery 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:48.560 shop on the way in and practice and probably get 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:52.240 a you know, a couple of encounters, but you separate 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:56.360 yourself dramatically from the field where you sound more realistic. 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.719 But you can obviously, I mean, I've done it at 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.840 a at a young as when I started hunting elk 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:07.520 in two thousand and six. It's not the same Germaine 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.440 eyes that hunts now, right. I didn't sound like this 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.480 in two thousand and six, and I still called in 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:18.960 elk because I sounded someone like an elk. But it 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:23.240 takes also another line of I'm going in areas where 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:26.560 no one else is messed with two, and that kind 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.000 of adds into the flavor of I don't have to 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:32.600 sound realistic because the elka partying over here. And maybe 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:35.840 I called off a satellite bull and and I won 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:38.280 that way. So I think the more realistic that you 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:43.679 do sound, you separate yourself from the field. Yeah, I agree. Um, 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:45.520 how many times have you been out there, have been 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:48.560 calling a bull and you got you and the bull 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:50.600 are exchanging bugles and then all of a sudden you 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.480 hear a guy up on the ridge that sounds terrible. 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:55.679 It sounds like he's abusing a puppy or something. Just 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:58.200 he's making these sounds are supposed to be like an elk, 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:01.879 but maybe either not even an elk like sound, or 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:05.880 maybe it's a semi okay bugle. I don't know how 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:08.800 many times I've had that happen to where the elk 0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:12.200 just stops. You know, you know this is over the counter. 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:16.000 You know, heavily hundred bull will shut up. He just topped, 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:19.520 he just quit calling, So I'll just quit calling too, 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:22.000 and then like maybe I'll give it thirty forty minutes 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:25.400 after I hear the last bugle, maybe let that guy 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:28.399 have a chance to leave, and then I'll call again. Bam, 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:31.439 It's like game on again. So those elk, you know, 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:34.000 I don't know. Um. I think some of our our 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:36.639 listeners probably know. You know, elk can get pretty in 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:39.600 tune to if you're an elk or or a hunter 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:42.720 or not. UM. But I will say this, I think 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:45.240 you know there's one there's one difference. You know, I 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:49.520 said earlier. You're a world champion caller. You know you 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:52.280 don't have to sound like a world champion caller, but 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:54.600 you do have to sound like an elk, right, And 0:22:54.640 --> 0:22:56.879 there's a lot of weird sounding elk out there, but 0:22:57.320 --> 0:22:59.919 a lot of these calls where people aren't putting in 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:02.199 time to learn how to use a call. You know, 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:04.880 they sound like a guy or gal bugle. It sounds 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:08.480 like a hunter, right, Whereas put some more time in 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:10.560