1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Body dunters. But Joseph's gotten more the stories of her 2 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: families that would come to me in the wake of 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: a death investigation, and they would say they had so 4 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: much to live for, or that next week he was 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 1: starting a new job and he was robbed of his 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: life by this other person. The idea that someone had 7 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: prepared their entire life to continue to live a better life, 8 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:46,279 Speaker 1: perhaps seemingly grateful for every second that they have on 9 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: this earth, every breath that they take in to their lungs. 10 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: So many of those bodies over so many years from me, 11 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: I stood over and. 12 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 2: Thought, what if? 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: What if they had survived car accidents, homicides, natural disease 14 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: or cancer robs you of everything. But you know, on 15 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: the flip side of that, I've recently discovered there are 16 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: a group of people that kind of put a fine 17 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: point on a concept that is oldest time, the idea 18 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: that you live in a vacuum and that nothing matters. 19 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: I think they call it the past century. They call 20 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: it nihilism. At the end of the day, it's pure selfishness. Today, 21 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: we're going to have a discussion about arguably one of 22 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: the most bizarre cases we've come across in some time, 23 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the idea and let this 24 00:01:52,240 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: sink in of anti natalism. I'm Joseph Scott and this 25 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: is bodybags, Dave. Look back in January, I got to 26 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: tell you, and you were there. You were there for 27 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: my family. You were there for you know, supporting my 28 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: wife and me through prayers and just asking is there 29 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: anything else I can do? And I remember laying in 30 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: a hospital bed in Birmingham, Alabama, hoping that I would 31 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: breathe air again. That was outside of that institution. Because 32 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, there were some dark moments, brother, 33 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: I had really felt like I was going to die, 34 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: and I remember clutching onto every thread of opportunity I had. 35 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: And you know, you're so drugged out, you know, with 36 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: post surgical stuff and everything, and you don't really know 37 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: you're in this kind of twilight zone. But the one 38 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: thing I knew is that I wanted to get out 39 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: of that hospital bed. I wanted to be able to 40 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: hug my grandbabies, hug my kids, love my wife, sit 41 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: here and one of the greatest things I do right 42 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: now at this point in my life is sit here 43 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: several times a week with the man that I considered 44 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: to be one of the best friends I've ever had, 45 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: Dave Mac and. 46 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 2: Just talk. 47 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: And just talk. We're not staring at phones, We're just 48 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: having conversations. And I remember how precious life seemed to 49 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: me at that period of time. And I don't know. 50 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: I come across cases like we're going to delve in 51 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: today and it's like somebody widen up a piece of 52 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: used notebook paper and throw it in the trash pail. 53 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: I'm get shocked by it. I'm absolutely shocked. 54 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 3: I will tell you when you know, we didn't talk 55 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 3: a lot about you being sick because, to be honest 56 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 3: with your friends, we didn't know what was going on 57 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 3: and what was going to happen. It went from being 58 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 3: something that we thought was one thing and ended up 59 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 3: being a thousand times worse and had been misdiagnosed with you, 60 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 3: and that's why there was It was shocking. 61 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: For all of us. 62 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 3: I know I speak for everyone, because they called me 63 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 3: and talked to me and texted me, and I would 64 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 3: tell you and Kim. I would tell Kim more than 65 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 3: you because you were out of it. But I was like, y'all, 66 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 3: please understand the people in our world that we do 67 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 3: business with. Are not asking about business, They're saying, what can. 68 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: We do for you? 69 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 3: I mean, it was really nice to see that the 70 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 3: people you believe are your friends and people who care 71 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 3: about you as an individual actually do And seeing that 72 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 3: side of everyone, I was like, all right, now we 73 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 3: got that part. Let's get this. What can we do? 74 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 3: And there was so nothing. It was just the craziest 75 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 3: part of prayer. That granted, for those who are believers, 76 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 3: prayer is everything, and we oftentimes say it's the only 77 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 3: thing you can do, and it's like, well it is. 78 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 3: This is the most powerful thing you can do. There 79 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,799 Speaker 3: is nothing. You cannot lift that rock and change anything. 80 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 3: But we're dealing with people now, Joe, that you and 81 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 3: I both have over the last several months have thought 82 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 3: where did they come up with this idea that you know, okay, 83 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 3: you were and now it's a movement of sorts that 84 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 3: my mom and dad are to blame for me being born. 85 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 3: I never asked to be born, and it's an actual thing. 86 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 3: I mean, as a punchline to a joke, I get it, 87 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 3: But seriousness in life, when you start labeling yourself. I 88 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 3: am a strict vegan and natalist and I have to 89 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 3: look up this stuff and. 90 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 2: Go, what did you make up today? 91 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: You know? What are you? 92 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 2: And my thing is, my. 93 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 3: Heart hurts for people who really feel like this Joe, 94 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 3: because I'm thinking, how do you get up out of bed? 95 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 3: How do you approach life when you to be honest, 96 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 3: why are you a vegan if you didn't even want 97 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 3: to be born? I mean, why are you worrying about? 98 00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: What? 99 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: I mean? You know, people that choose to be vegan, 100 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: I think that they go that route because they think 101 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: they're being healthy. And so it seems those two things 102 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: seem to cancel out. If you're if you're so you know, 103 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: down in the mouth over the fact that you that 104 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: you're currently in existence and that you had no control 105 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: over that decision, the two things don't seem that they 106 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: can't occupy. You know, It's like it's like Isaac Newton. 107 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: You know, these two things can't occupy the same space. 108 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: And so you know, you think about this, where does 109 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: your mind work? And I think that it does work. 110 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: It's just and listen, this is for many years we 111 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: worked we worked cases based on a book called Final Exit. 112 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: You and I are going to do an entire episode 113 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: on Final Exit because it's mind blowing. And final Exit 114 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: is something that kind of grew out of a movement 115 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: back in the eighties. A guy named Derek Humphrey wrote 116 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: a book called Final Exit and he and there was 117 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: another book to the wrote prior to that, but he 118 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: talked about they don't refer to it as suicide. It's 119 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: referred to as self deliverance. And he talked about. 120 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 2: His wife self deliverance. 121 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, self deliverance, aiding, aiding his wife and her journey 122 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: into the unknown because and listen, no, look, she had 123 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: she had terminal bone cancer, which is one of the 124 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: most painful things you can go through. But from that 125 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: sprung this idea of what they term as self deliverance. 126 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's you think about it. I think, 127 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: in your rational mind, you think you don't want somebody 128 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: to to suffer, you know, and watch them have the dwindles, 129 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: all right, But then it expanded out to you've got 130 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,559 Speaker 1: people now that are saying, and had for a while 131 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: and I guess it still exists. They're suffering from chronic 132 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: fatigue syndrome. So they use that as a rationalization to 133 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: go to their families and say, I want to end 134 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: my life. I have chronic fatigue syndrome. You don't understand, 135 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: I'm always tired, and so there's a recipe for it. 136 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: Because Humphrey wrote this book called Final Exit, so you 137 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: had this kind of underlying current that kind of developed 138 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: relative to this. And the reason i'm you know, I've 139 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: got this kind of rambling preamble here is the fact 140 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: that this is kind of a culmination in what I 141 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: saw developing back in the eighties as a death investigator, 142 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 1: you know, because now we jump from self deliverance as 143 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: a result of being in extreme pain, which you know, 144 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: I can't really judge anybody because, you know, thank the 145 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: good Lord, I haven't had to go through bone cancer. 146 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: I don't know what that's like. But then I have 147 00:08:54,840 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: this pop onto our radar where you have people rationalized 148 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: causing the end of their life because they didn't ask 149 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: to be born. And so it was just it's one 150 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: of these things that's so super bizarre to me. And 151 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: here's here's the other thing. When Final Exit came up, 152 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: there were like I had colleagues all over the country 153 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: at medical examiners and corners offices that were catching these cases. 154 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: And the reason we knew that they were these. First off, 155 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: there would be a copy of the book at the house. 156 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: And secondly, they had actually stuck to the recipe that 157 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: this author had recommended, and there were multiple methodologies for 158 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: painless death, but he had that he and look, YouTube 159 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: had to take all this stuff down. These things were 160 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: being demonstrated on YouTube. 161 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: Wow, is this when the Gregorkian thing was really good? 162 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: Yeah? It kind of paralleled that period of time, and 163 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: so it was one of these weird times to be 164 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: a death investigator. And look, you know, we're all about 165 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: evident and what we're looking forward to seeing, and there 166 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: were certain signs that you would look for if you 167 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: had a suicide and you're thinking that, okay, is this 168 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: a final exit? That was one of the questions we'd 169 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 1: always ask ourselves, is this a final exit case as 170 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: opposed to some other methodology, because suicide is as old 171 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: as time as well. I mean, people have taken their 172 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: lives for ages and ages and ages. But there's a 173 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: recipe that was applied. My thought is, because we saw 174 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: the widespread use of this, Dave and this terrifies me. Brother, 175 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: this idea of anti natalism. I'm wondering if this thing 176 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: is going to go viral. That's and the culture that 177 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: we live in now with social media and how people 178 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: get knocked around on social media a lot, and we 179 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: live these you know, there's the old quote about the 180 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: bridge living life a quiet desperation, you know, where people 181 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: are so isolated by these damn phones and they're they're 182 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: living in their own world, and it does I can 183 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: only imagine it must seem very hopeless many times. But 184 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: I hope that this is not going to be This 185 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: isn't a precursor to something much more sinister than just 186 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: the cases we're going to talk about today. 187 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 3: Today, Sophie Tenney, twenty seven years old, is living with 188 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 3: a guy named Lars Nelson, and they're living in Washington, 189 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 3: State of Washington, on an island called Fox Island, and 190 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 3: six point thirty on a Sunday morning, Lars Neilson calls 191 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 3: nine to one one and says, I have a death 192 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 3: gunshot wound. He's fairly calm, sounds a little nervous, but 193 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 3: he reports it as a suicide. And that's where this 194 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 3: all begins, with the so called suicide. I say so 195 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 3: called because the reason we're doing this story large Nilsen 196 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 3: has been arrested and charged in the murder of Sophie Tenny. 197 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 3: Sophie Tenney was very active in the movement that Joe 198 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 3: was just talking about and believed that I have the 199 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 3: words are failing me. But she believed that there's so 200 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 3: much pain in life, desperation and things like that that 201 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 3: to foist that onto some person by having them born 202 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 3: was just. 203 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 2: Unforgivable, immoral. 204 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, and that's the adjustment you have to write. 205 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: Because I don't know, I'm not a philosopher. Is this 206 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: circular logic? I don't understand because what I'm they are 207 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: anti moralist, but yet they haven't a xablished set of 208 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: morals because this is a moral violation based upon the 209 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: fact that they had no choice in being born. Please 210 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: understand this. You had no choice in being born. And 211 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: so it's that it's that underlying thesis that is being 212 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: used as a rationale to literally day and correct me 213 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. The story I'm hearing is that she 214 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: had asked that her life be taken from. 215 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 3: Her, and that's actually going to be the investigation. That's 216 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 3: actually Joe right where we are. The reason we're doing 217 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 3: this story, other than it appears to be a staged 218 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 3: suicide other than that which we've you're going to have 219 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 3: to you've guess you guys explaining to do Joseph because okay, right, 220 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 3: But in reality, according to what we are hearing about 221 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 3: the victim, Sophie Tenny. 222 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 2: That she was had a lot of power over her. 223 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 3: Boyfriend Laars Nilsen, and according to her family members that 224 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 3: she could pretty much get him to do whatever, and 225 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 3: that based on some things. Because believe it or not, 226 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 3: this is also tied to a bombing that took place 227 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 3: a month after her death. So we're gonna have to 228 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 3: tile this together. And I really wish we had Bethany 229 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 3: or Karen in one of our psychs or Angel Arnold. 230 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: What is it the Nancy always says, I need a 231 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: psychiatry drink. Yeah, and you know you kind of feel 232 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: like this. But what it comes down to, and always 233 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: keep this in the forefront of your mind relative to 234 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: our content here on bodybacks, is aside from all of 235 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: the emotional stuff, aside aside from all of the hyperbole, 236 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: what in fact does the science tell us our old friend, 237 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: the Finder, Dave. We've talked about the Finder, and I 238 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: know we repeat it over and over again. I got 239 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: to tell you one thing I do not like, and 240 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: sometimes you don't have any choice in it, and most 241 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: of the time you don't, is that when you roll 242 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: up on the scene and I've got a finder or 243 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: a civilian that's out of the scene and they look 244 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: at me and they tell me they committed suicide, this 245 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: is a suicide. Well, I guess part of me is 246 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: an investigator from a practicality standpoint, likes it when they 247 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: tell me that because it automatically deflects me to go 248 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: down another road or changes the course of my investigation. 249 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: Because if you're telling me from the beginning that you believe, 250 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: as the finder of this individual, that this is a suicide, 251 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to have further questions. And again, we have 252 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: to keep in mind the idea that in this principle, 253 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: and I'll keep hammering this this home as long as 254 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: they allow me to do the show, every death is 255 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,359 Speaker 1: a homicide until we prove otherwise. 256 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 3: Thank you for saying that, you know, I know, I 257 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 3: really appreciate I never thought about that, Joe. I have 258 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 3: been following and reporting and investigating crimes for the better 259 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 3: part of my adult life, and it never occurred to 260 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 3: me that that is how you, as a death investigator, 261 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 3: has to approach the scene that every death is a 262 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 3: murder until proven otherwise. 263 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and let me explain why, very briefly, is that. Look, 264 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: if I start out at what I think many people 265 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: would view as the most complex kind of death investation 266 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: investigation to conduct, and not just forensically, but just from 267 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: a legal standpoint. If I start off at that level, 268 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: assuming my working assumption is scientifically that this is the 269 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: death at the hand of another the definition of homicide, 270 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: there's a high probability I am not going to miss 271 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: evidence as it relates to other manners, you know, suicide, accident, natural, undetermined. 272 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: So if I start off at that level with a homicide, 273 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: then I'm guaranteed to probably hit every note along the 274 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: way as far as evidence, collection of observations, documentation, all 275 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: that stuff that we do. And in this case, I 276 00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: would imagine that when the cops finally may contact with 277 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: Lars Nelson at the scene, they're left scratching their head. 278 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 3: Dave Well, Lars Neilson calls nine to one one six 279 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 3: point thirty in the morning, reports a death, and he 280 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 3: explains to the nine to one one operator, you know, 281 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: they ask the general questions, you know, if you're breathing, 282 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 3: can you tell what's going on? He actually does tell them, no, 283 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 3: she is not, she's dead, and he explains that he 284 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 3: has that there's a gun, it's laying on the bed, 285 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 3: he's taken it's unloaded, he took the magazine out. And 286 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 3: there are so many things that nine one one operators 287 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 3: have to get from an information standpoint to pass along 288 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 3: to the officers that are going to be responding to 289 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 3: a scene, because, hey, you don't know if what you're being. 290 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 2: Told is the truth. 291 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 3: You're told there's a dead body and there's gunshot, so 292 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 3: where's the gun? Who's got the gun? And they get 293 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 3: those things cleared up, and so as police arrived Joe, 294 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 3: and this is where it always gets interesting to me. 295 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 3: Now after doing this show with you, I'm wondering what 296 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 3: they're walking into they've already been told or that, you know, 297 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 3: if you believe. 298 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 2: The call, there was a suicide. 299 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 3: So I'm going to expect based on that gunshot wound 300 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 3: to the head, That's what I'm going to expect it. 301 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 3: And normally when I would say gunshot wound to the head, 302 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 3: it's a suicide, I'm expecting one bullet to the head. 303 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 3: One shot. But that's not what happened here, Joe. Now, 304 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 3: as a death investigator, if you're told something like suicide, 305 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 3: if you're told something gunshot wound to the head and 306 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 3: you're investigating, are you expecting to see more than one 307 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 3: shot to the head. 308 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: No, No, you're you're not. I had a memory just 309 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: now you had mentioned this. One of the most simple 310 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: cases of suicide investigation I ever worked was three guys 311 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: that had gotten drunk and they used a forty five 312 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: caliber semi automatic handgun in order to play Russian Roulette 313 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: and the no and the first guy, obviously, I don't 314 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: know if he won or lost, but he's no longer 315 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: with us. Uh. That's very simplistic, all right, on one level. 316 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: But if you show up at a scene and there 317 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: was an old forensic pathologist that used to use this term, 318 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: and I love this, I kind of hung onto it. 319 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: And again it goes back to the reporter. He would say, 320 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: is this as advertised? And that's that statement that he 321 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: would make was always amazing to me. First off, it 322 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: showed that he had he had some miles on his tires, 323 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: you know that, because he had probably been and you 324 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: you get sucked in, particularly as a young investigator, young 325 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: forensic pathologist early on in your career, you get you 326 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: have to get beat up a little bit in mis 327 00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: cases or misdiagnoses in order to perfect your craft. And 328 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: so his his big thing is this as advertised and 329 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: with Lars Nelson when the cops arrived, Dave, she's got 330 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: and I don't again another you know one of my 331 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: I don't know? Is it a packadilla. One of the 332 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: things that I don't like is to call gunshot ones 333 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: gunshot ones. I don't like saying that until I can 334 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: have an official diagnosis at the morgue. Because defects or 335 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: holes in a body are they are They're merely that 336 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: they're holes. How how can you confirm that it is 337 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: in fact a gunshot one? Just because there is a 338 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: weapon there, just because you've got spent casings there, does 339 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: not necessarily mean that it is a gunshot one. 340 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 3: That takes us think to a story we did the 341 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 3: other day about the manner, and we were talking about 342 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 3: the the decay that as a and you described. You 343 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 3: showed me a picture and it looked like a guy 344 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 3: had been shot dad in his share and you're like heay, 345 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 3: that's a natural death, and I'm thinking, there's no way 346 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 3: this can be a natural death. He's playing a joke 347 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 3: on me. So I started looking at the picture to 348 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 3: see overlays and everything else. Ye, because then I have 349 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 3: learned now that nothing is as it appears, and in 350 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 3: this case it's not. 351 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you have people that are intent on 352 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 1: deceiving you, gee, I wonder if there's people out there 353 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 1: like that in this case, you know, the police when 354 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: they're being told by Nelson allegedly that this is a 355 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: self inflicted gunshot. One case, well, just at the scene, 356 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: they begin to examine the victim's body and she's got 357 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: three defects, actually four three that apparently according to the 358 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: medical examiner later on these three there's three defects that 359 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: are in fact entrance ones. Okay, then you've got a 360 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: fourth that's an exit. Now let me just let me 361 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: lay the groundwork here, because many times the people that 362 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: are bent on taking their own life, they by firearm. 363 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: Did you know that they will test fire weapon? Okay, 364 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: they'll test fire weapon. I've had people that have test 365 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: fired weapons once and twice before they self inflict. And 366 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: so that's not uncommon come out to a scene of 367 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: a suicide and you might have multiple spent casings laying around. 368 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: You have one hole, that's not what you're dealing with here. 369 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: You've got three what they're calling entrance wounds now, and 370 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: you've got an exit through the body, which that round 371 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: apparently lodged in the adjacent wall. Now they have not 372 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: to this point, the police have not been forthcoming with 373 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: the specifics as far as the forensic go. But this 374 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: is what we're hearing. First off, they don't like the 375 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: fact that this is a throw and through gunshot wound 376 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 1: and that the round is lodged in a wall. And 377 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,719 Speaker 1: the reason they don't like that is because of the 378 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: position of the body, the probability of where this round 379 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: would have actually wound up if she was in a like, 380 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: in a particular position. So what they're saying, I think 381 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: is that the body has been staged in some way, 382 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 1: because they're actually using the term she was in an 383 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: unnatural position? 384 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 2: What does that actually mean? I mean, I know what 385 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 2: I'm thinking, But. 386 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 1: Well, I had a case many years ago of of 387 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: a hooker and her pimp that killed a little old 388 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: lady and cleaned her up and redressed her and Dave 389 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: just like in a vampire movie. After they had redressed her, 390 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: they crossed her arms like you see in presentation at 391 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: a funeral home. People don't die like that. Some people have. 392 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: The majority of people don't die when their arms crossed. 393 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 1: When you tell me that it's kind of in an 394 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: unnatural position, that's odd, all right. I think in a 395 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 1: simple mind, people want to go to great links to say, Okay, well, 396 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,120 Speaker 1: gee whiz, what can I do in order to make 397 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: this look like this is something, as my old colleague 398 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: you say, other than as advertised, you know, and so 399 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: what you know? The weapon is away from her body, 400 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: it's not adjacent to her. Now I think, am I 401 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: correct day that Nelson said that he had moved the 402 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: weapon and actually cleared the weapon as that accurate? 403 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 2: He did. 404 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 3: He that's what he said to the nine one one 405 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 3: dispatch office. And for someone who understands guns and has 406 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 3: a respect for them, I can understand why an individual 407 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,479 Speaker 3: would do that. I would not, to be honest with you, 408 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 3: I if I came upon something like that, I would 409 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 3: be outside, as Lars Nelson was outside of the house 410 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 3: when he calls nine on one. He's not inside with 411 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:03,959 Speaker 3: the body. He goes outside. Now I would do that. 412 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 3: I would be outside and I would describe what I 413 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 3: had seen, But I wouldn't go back in, mainly because 414 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 3: I don't want to mess with anything. I want you 415 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 3: to be able to investigate. And when he's describing basically 416 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 3: that he has taken this weapon and he's cleared it, 417 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 3: taking the magazine out and everything else, I'm thinking, why 418 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 3: did you get all that effort? I mean, what's the 419 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 3: point of that. So it does kind of make things 420 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 3: for me a little suspect, but maybe not. 421 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 2: I don't. 422 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: Like I said, hey, listen, there's another clue here. They're 423 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: also saying that the blood deposition, the blood spatter is 424 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: not in what they would consider to be consistent with 425 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 1: this kind of death if it were in fact a suicide. 426 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 2: To the head. Joe, I mean, come on, now, listen 427 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 2: to that. 428 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, you're right, And that's assuming that all of 429 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: them are to the head. I'm assuming that they are, 430 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 1: because again, they haven't like narrowed that down to this point. 431 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: There are people, Dave and I've I had one case 432 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: in particular that was quite infamous where I had a 433 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: guy that shot himself with a shotgun and didn't kill himself. 434 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: He blew his chin off in the tip of his 435 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,239 Speaker 1: nose and wandered around the house bleeding profusely, and then 436 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: came back and placed the shotgun over his heart the 437 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:37,640 Speaker 1: muzzle and actuated the trigger with his thumb and killed himself. 438 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: So it does happen where people are shot multiple times 439 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: in an attempted suicide, because you get people that will 440 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: pull away at the last moment. I've actually had two 441 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: of those kind of cases where they'll kind of retract, 442 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: you know, at the last moment, anticipating the blast, or 443 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: maybe they've said, this is a stupid choice that I'm 444 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: making and they just didn't get out of the way 445 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: of it, and then they have to go ahead and 446 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:06,959 Speaker 1: finish themselves off if they're capable. So to say that, well, 447 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: you know, all suicides involve a single gunshot woe, it's 448 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: not completely true, because you do have those cases where 449 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: people are shot multiple times. Some person might try to 450 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: shoot themselves in the abdomen, for instance, in an attempt 451 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: and they realize that didn't work, so they place the 452 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: weapon too their heads. Some people don't want to disfigure 453 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: their face or their head, so you'll have these people 454 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 1: that you know, and aside from being incredibly painful, if 455 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: you take an abdominal around or shot to the chest 456 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: that's non fatal, it's markedly painful. And they go ahead 457 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: and you know, pull the real and proverbial trigger and 458 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: take their own life with a gsw ahead. So you 459 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: can't say, you cannot say empirically that there are cases 460 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: out there that all cases involve a single gunshot woe. 461 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: But when you've got three, when you've got three, you're 462 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: going to have to go a long way to sell 463 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: this to me that it's something again other than advertised. 464 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: My wife, Kimmy has me wrapped. I rarely, if ever 465 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: tell her no for anything. All Right, we're on this 466 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: kind of journey together. We have fun. We have fun 467 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: every single day, even in bad times. We purpose to 468 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: have fun. I rarely ever tell her no. But Brother Dave, 469 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, if Kimmy walked up to 470 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: me and said that she wanted me to do what 471 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: Lars Nelson did to this victim, I think I'm shutting 472 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: things down at this point. My understanding is is that 473 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: there's connectivity between a request on her part and how 474 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: the thing wound up according to him, at this point in. 475 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 3: Time, well, according to him, as well as her family, 476 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 3: her mother, there was a history of look, if you 477 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 3: or someone you know feels like there's nothing left in life, 478 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 3: you know that you're going to take it out and 479 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 3: you want to be gone. You know that's not the end, 480 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 3: all the don't take your own life. We'll have the 481 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 3: number up and things like that. But friends come on. 482 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 3: This is one of those times where the family as 483 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 3: soon as she's gone and Lars Neilson claims it was 484 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 3: a suicide. That we start hearing because police right off 485 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 3: the bat said he doesn't look like a suicide. It 486 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 3: does not look What he's describing and what we're seeing 487 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 3: are two different things. So they start talking to family 488 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 3: members and find out that there had been a number 489 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 3: of calls reaching out for help, and her mother described 490 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 3: talking to her for six hours on the phone one 491 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 3: day and calling and asking police to do a welfare 492 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 3: check the next day. On Sophie Tenny And you know, 493 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 3: Sophie Tenny was very published, twenty seven years old. She's 494 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 3: very public about her feelings about being a really charged 495 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 3: up vegan. 496 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 2: And is it natalist? Is that how you say that 497 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 2: term Joe. 498 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: Natalist, natal like baby yeah, yeah, anti natalism yeah. 499 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 2: And so. 500 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 3: It truly out there that she was very aggressive in 501 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 3: this mental health issue. But her mother said she could 502 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 3: get Lars Nilson to do anything anything she wanted. Lars 503 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 3: Nilson would do anything to make her happy. And that 504 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 3: is a pretty powerful statement coming from a mother about 505 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 3: her daughter when her daughter is dead and the suspect here, 506 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 3: you know, is the boyfriend. And to me, that was 507 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 3: very powerful to me because as a parent, I know 508 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 3: how I would feel about my children, you know, and 509 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 3: I know what you and I have seen over the 510 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 3: years in dealing with family members who have a loved 511 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 3: one that has gone that nobody wants to accept suicide 512 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 3: as a end result. 513 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 2: And yet we have the. 514 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 3: Family saying, well, you know, she was she had a 515 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 3: lot of odd ideas, and she had some serious mental 516 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 3: health issues, and there was a record of these things. 517 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 3: And anyway, Lars Nelson, you mentioned how Kimmy can you rarely. 518 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 2: Tell her no? 519 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 3: Well, Lars Neilson never told Sophie no, apparently, and according 520 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 3: to family and friends, he would have done this. And 521 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 3: there was a suggestion that maybe they had a pact 522 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 3: that Sophie and Lars had a pact of murder suicide. 523 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 3: I'll kill myself, you kill yourself kind of thing, and 524 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 3: that maybe that's what happened that Larry's you know, took 525 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 3: her out first and was supposed to take himself out 526 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 3: and didn't. 527 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 2: I don't know that's the case. 528 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 3: It's just something that is being thrown out there as 529 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 3: a possibility. 530 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and and it does, it does happen. It's I think, 531 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, murder suicides happened with great frequency. But do 532 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: you ever notice something, Dave. And if it's not somebody, 533 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: it's same as suicides. If it's if they're not famous, 534 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: it it only makes it through maybe you know, one 535 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: or two cycles. Even these tragic cases where a parent 536 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: will kill all of their kids and killed themselves, and 537 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: we're talking about a mass homicide coupled with with a suicide, 538 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: it only make it through like one or two news 539 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: cycles and then it's gone. This one is different, This 540 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: is completely different because look from everything we're here, this 541 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: is not a suicide. 542 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 3: And hey, can I have one quick thing, Joe. There 543 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 3: was a comment here that the victim's parents and we're 544 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 3: talking about Sophie Tenny's parents told deputies that she and Nelson, 545 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 3: Sophie Tenny and Lars Nilson were quote co dependent, and 546 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 3: that she had a history of mental illness suicidal ideation. 547 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 3: The woman's mother said that she had spent six hours 548 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 3: on the phone with her daughter the friday before all 549 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 3: this happened, and the woman allegedly said Nelson would help 550 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 3: end her suffering. 551 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 2: This is what mom. 552 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 3: Told deputies, and that's where the deputies came up with 553 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 3: the idea that it's possible that he did help her, 554 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 3: he assisted in taking her own life. That's where that's 555 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 3: coming from. Anyone you think I made that up, It 556 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 3: wasn't a thought I had. This actually came from discussions 557 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 3: between the mom and the actual deputies. But Joe, this 558 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 3: ideation of you know that it's immoral to have a 559 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 3: child because of all the pain and suffering that exists 560 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 3: in the world today, and it wasn't something just shared 561 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 3: by Sophie Tenney. There are other people who believe that 562 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 3: and talk openly about it. The Internet is a crazy 563 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 3: place for crazy things to be said out loud, and 564 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 3: these were things said out loud, and Sophie Tenny's death 565 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 3: occurs what April twentieth right, Yes, And a couple of 566 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 3: weeks later in Palm Springs, California, there is a bomb 567 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 3: that goes off at an IVF clinic, a fertility clinic 568 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 3: in Palm Springs, and the guy who did it was 569 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 3: trying to live stream this bombing. Did you know that 570 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 3: he failed at the live stream, but he was trying 571 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 3: to live stream blowing up a building. 572 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he succeeded. There were people hurt, the facing 573 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: of this building gets taken out, and he used a 574 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: modium nitrate which is very similar to the fertilizer bomb 575 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: though Timothy McVeigh used. And when you see this thing, 576 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: if you and I yeah, and I encourage anybody. I 577 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 1: encourage anybody that is not familiar with the case involving 578 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: guy Barkas in Palm Springs to go take a look 579 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 1: at the images here and see see what this looks like. 580 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: But he had left behind a manifesto. And again, this 581 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: happened a month after Lars Nelson has allegedly killed Sophie. 582 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: And what's so fascinating, Dave, is that in the manifesto, 583 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: in the manifesto that Barcus wrote prior to you know 584 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,760 Speaker 1: him vaporizing himself and injuring other people at the IVF clinic. 585 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: She's mentioned in it, or at least they believe he 586 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: alludes to this idea that there is this couple up 587 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: in Washington State where they were anti natalist. He he 588 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: used another term in addition to anti natalism. Let's see 589 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: if I can recall what it was. But there's there 590 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: are other terms that this guy has utilized, and this 591 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: this kind of underlying I don't know what it is, 592 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: a code uh or that they're living by now. And 593 00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 1: he stated uh. He stated that that he wanted he 594 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 1: wanted an end to essentially the potential for new life. 595 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: Just let that sink in for a moment. It's it's 596 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: one thing, you know, if you want to vaporize yourself, 597 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: and you know, but it's not it's not just it's 598 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: not just a matter of taking your own life or 599 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: injuring these people at this clinic. You're making a statement 600 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: here about because you know they've got they've got like 601 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: frozen embryos in the place. This is a place where 602 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: couples that are childiss go for hope. I mean, how 603 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: many people have you and I encountered in our life 604 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: that can't get pregnant. It's heartbreaking because you know, these 605 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,320 Speaker 1: people be really good parents and it just doesn't happen 606 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: for them. And this idea that they're trying to and 607 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: I think that this is where he's coming from. I 608 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 1: don't know there they're trying to engineer science and that 609 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: shouldn't happen. And his other term for this, Dave, I 610 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: love how these things are kind of manufactured out within there. 611 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: Pro mortalism is this current and the underlying the underlying 612 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: view on the part of Barcas that wrote the Manifesto 613 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 1: is that that death is better than life. That so 614 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: the mortality as opposed to immortality that I guess the 615 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: peace that comes along with self inflicting and ending your 616 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: life is far better than existing in the world in 617 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: which you currently find yourself inhabiting. And it's a it's 618 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: a desperately dangerous view in my in my view at least, 619 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: because you've got so many people that are so or 620 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,799 Speaker 1: that perceive themselves to be so fragile out there, and 621 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: that you have a construct that's floating around out there 622 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: where people can get a hold of this One of 623 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,320 Speaker 1: my biggest worries about this case, and I really hope 624 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: that the FEDS are looking into this. Were any of 625 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: these people networked with one another that expends that extends 626 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 1: out further than just them. Because it's one thing to 627 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: have a boyfriend who is easily influenced. You've got this 628 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: issue of quote unquote codependency, and he takes the life 629 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,879 Speaker 1: of his lover. All right, It's something completely different when 630 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 1: you talk about a guy that gets his hands on 631 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: a modium nitrate. By the way, the guy that supplied 632 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: him with it was hiding in Europe. They had to 633 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,360 Speaker 1: go arrest him. I think they arrested him in Poland. Wow, 634 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,800 Speaker 1: and that gave this fellow, you know, the ammonium nitrate. 635 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: How far out did the tentacles of this thing stretch? 636 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:53,319 Speaker 2: Dave? 637 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: It's really dangerous when you think about it. Are there 638 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: other people out there that, Look, I don't care about myself, 639 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: I don't care about my fellow humans surrounding me, I 640 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: don't care about my family. I'm going to try to 641 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,719 Speaker 1: take out as many people as I possibly can in 642 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: one fail swoop. And I do think that that's that's 643 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: the real tragedy here. 644 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:15,840 Speaker 3: One of the things I did was I wrote down 645 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 3: the motivation and I know that the motivation for a 646 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 3: crime is not I guess it's not important in black 647 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 3: and white. It's important to me because I'd like to 648 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 3: I kind of like to know why somebody did something, 649 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 3: and in this particular case, I feel like we have 650 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 3: to know why because Brett, I believe this could be 651 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 3: the start of something that is just going to escalate, 652 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 3: because there are so many people whose entire lives are 653 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 3: built to a very small world. It's a it's a 654 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 3: big world, but sitting in the palm of your hand, 655 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 3: and that if you're negative, you can feed negativity, you 656 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 3: can find more people. You know, a lot of times 657 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,239 Speaker 3: we feel like we are kind of all alone in 658 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 3: our thoughts. But now you're all alone in your thoughts. 659 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 3: But there's millions of other people around the world that 660 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 3: are alone in their thoughts, and they're going to help 661 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 3: you isolate even more and reinforce your belief that somehow 662 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 3: this pro mortalist ideology arguing that life and I wrote 663 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 3: this down because I'm really having trouble with this, Joe, 664 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,880 Speaker 3: life should be ended as soon as possible, because it 665 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 3: only results in suffering and death. The belief that having 666 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 3: children is unethical, It only exposes more people to future 667 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 3: suffering and death. That's the motivation for trying to blow 668 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,439 Speaker 3: up a fertility clinic. That's the motivation for getting your 669 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:51,760 Speaker 3: boyfriend to enter into a murder suicide packed. I mean, Joe, 670 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 3: this is a dangerous it's very dangerous ideology. 671 00:42:55,280 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: It's markedly dangerous, Dave. And you know it's one thing 672 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: to talk or maybe right about these things. But to 673 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:14,839 Speaker 1: now you have interjected action into the national conversation. You 674 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:21,040 Speaker 1: have demonstrated that the possibility exists that you can move 675 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 1: forward with your thoughts about life, even if it means 676 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: taking the lives of others. My friends, listen, if you 677 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: or anybody I'm begging, I'm pleading with you has any 678 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: kind of suicidal thoughts, they're having trouble in their life, 679 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,399 Speaker 1: you suspect that there is a problem, or maybe you 680 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,359 Speaker 1: are struggling right now. I urge you, with all that 681 00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: is within me, to please reach out. There's help. National 682 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: helpline for crises, particularly as it applies to suicide is 683 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 1: simply three numbers. Are you ready? Nine eight eight. There 684 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,360 Speaker 1: are people on duty that can talk to you and 685 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: that can get you help, and that we'll just listen. 686 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: But please don't sit there in isolation. Reach out if 687 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:32,359 Speaker 1: you're troubled. Nine eight eight I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 688 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: this is body Backs.