Speaker 1: On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, an Edmund, Oklahoma
Speaker 1: business owner, Paul Howell, was returning to his parents home
Speaker 1: with his sister and two daughters after shopping for school supplies.
Speaker 1: Upon exiting the vehicle, he was shot twice and killed
Speaker 1: for his GMC suburban. Paul's sister would describe the shooter
Speaker 1: as an African American male wearing a red bandana across
Speaker 1: his face and a stocking cap with up to an
Speaker 1: inch of hair sticking out from the bottom. Investigators would
Speaker 1: tap confidential informants in the stolen car trade that would
Speaker 1: deflect from themselves and point police in the direction of
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan and Julius Jones. Chris Jordan would go on
Speaker 1: to give a confession that was riddled with inconsistencies, blaming
Speaker 1: Julius Jones for the murder, but on the night of
Speaker 1: July twenty eighth, Julius was at home with his family.
Speaker 1: The following night, July twenty ninth, Chris Jordan slept at
Speaker 1: the Joneses home, and that's when he planted the murder
Speaker 1: weapon in a second story crawl space, something he admitted
Speaker 1: both to the police and to two jailhouse informants. On
Speaker 1: July thirtieth, police would find the gun exactly where Chris
Speaker 1: Jordan had told him to look, and emerge with it
Speaker 1: wrapped in a red Bandanna. Julius's defense at trial failed
Speaker 1: to present any evidence, including a photo taken by police
Speaker 1: after a traffic stop just ten days earlier, that would
Speaker 1: have ruled him out as a potential match to the
Speaker 1: only eyewitnesses description. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, received
Speaker 1: leniency for testifying against Julius, and he's been out of
Speaker 1: prison since twenty fourteen. Julius, meanwhile, remains on death row
Speaker 1: for crime for which Chris Jordan has bragged about framing him.
Speaker 1: On this episode, we team up with one of Julius's
Speaker 1: fiercest advocates, Kim Kardashian West, as we speak with his
Speaker 1: attorney Dale Baish and his mother and sister, Madeline and
Speaker 1: Antoinette Jones. This Its Wrongful Conviction with Jason Plumm Today,
Speaker 1: we're here to talk about Julius Jones, who's been on
Speaker 1: death row in Oklahoma for over twenty years for crime
Speaker 1: he didn't commit. And I'd like to welcome a very
Speaker 1: special guest. You'll recognize her name, and you'll recognize her
Speaker 1: from having been on this podcast before. Kim Kardashian West,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flohm.
Speaker 2: Hi, thank you for having me again.
Speaker 1: I can't overstate the importance of you being here today
Speaker 1: with us, Kim, because if we don't take every possible
Speaker 1: action that we can, and I mean the audience too,
Speaker 1: Julius will be executed in Oklahoma as early as this
Speaker 1: fall for a crime we know he didn't commit. Kim,
Speaker 1: can you tell us when you first heard about this case.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I first started to receive letters. They were from
Speaker 2: a woman named Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her,
Speaker 2: and she was kind of reiterating the same information about
Speaker 2: Julius and mentioned the documentary with Viola Davis. So I thought,
Speaker 2: I have to look into this. And I say this
Speaker 2: all the time because we have such an amazing group
Speaker 2: of people, between you and Scott Budnick, my attorneys and everyone.
Speaker 2: When all of the big players really feel the same
Speaker 2: way about a case, I know that we have to
Speaker 2: be loud and I feel in my soul that we
Speaker 2: are early enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't
Speaker 2: been set yet. That I feel like now is the
Speaker 2: time where we all just have to come together and
Speaker 2: really make a difference in his life.
Speaker 1: What about this particular case, about his case makes you
Speaker 1: so passionate and what sticks out to you the most
Speaker 1: about Julius's case, There's.
Speaker 2: A few things. Being a young honor roll student athlete,
Speaker 2: you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around
Speaker 2: always says what an amazing person he is, that grew
Speaker 2: up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting
Speaker 2: caught up with the wrong group of people and getting
Speaker 2: set up the way he was just really rubbed me
Speaker 2: the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life
Speaker 2: was just taken away. It always goes back to me
Speaker 2: thinking about what if that was my son? What would
Speaker 2: I do if my son got set up like this?
Speaker 2: So we got to fight for this guy. We got
Speaker 2: to help him get his life back.
Speaker 1: The next voice you hear is going to be the
Speaker 1: voice of Dale Bash, an assistant federal public defender who
Speaker 1: is definitely doing his part to help to unravel this nightmare.
Speaker 1: When did you get involved with it?
Speaker 3: Twenty and sixteen, our office was appointed to represent Julius
Speaker 3: in clemency proceedings.
Speaker 1: Now can you walk us through the case.
Speaker 3: Sure. On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, according to
Speaker 3: Chris Jordan, who is a co defendant in this case,
Speaker 3: he and Julius were driving around looking for a suburban
Speaker 3: to jack. They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood,
Speaker 3: and according to Chris Jordan, Julius jumped out of the
Speaker 3: car when the car pulled into the driveway and shot
Speaker 3: Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody, that's
Speaker 3: what he told the police, and they immediately focused on Julius.
Speaker 3: Tunnel vision set in. But what we now know is
Speaker 3: Chris made seven different statements to the police, and those
Speaker 3: statements were inconsistent, And at one point the police say,
Speaker 3: what you're telling us, it's not adding up. We don't
Speaker 3: have this backwards, do we. So the police knew that
Speaker 3: there were problems with what Chris was telling them, but
Speaker 3: the police continue to focus on Julius.
Speaker 1: Something really struck me as I was reading about this case,
Speaker 1: which was that when the gun was hidden in Julius's house,
Speaker 1: obviously very damning for anyone to have the murder weapon
Speaker 1: found in their home.
Speaker 3: Well, we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police.
Speaker 3: He was asked, so you hid the murder weapon, and
Speaker 3: he responded yeah. Chris also told one of the men
Speaker 3: that he spoke to while in custody in the county
Speaker 3: jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the
Speaker 3: murder and hid it in Julius's parents' house. We understand
Speaker 3: that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of
Speaker 3: Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then
Speaker 3: went looking for the gun and immediately went to where
Speaker 3: we think Chris told them the gun would be located.
Speaker 3: We also know that there were other people involved, namely Kermit,
Speaker 3: Lotti and laddel King, that had a lot to gain
Speaker 3: by pointing in Julius's direction and away from themselves.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about Kermit and Laddell.
Speaker 3: Kermit Lottie was a man who ran a chop shop
Speaker 3: on the south side of Oklahoma City, and it was
Speaker 3: a well known establishment in the trade of stealing cars.
Speaker 3: Laddel King was a close confidant of Kermit's and was
Speaker 3: known for his involvement in that trade. Laddel King was
Speaker 3: also a confidential informant and in exchange for providing information
Speaker 3: to the police, he would be allowed to carry on
Speaker 3: with some of his illegal activities. At the time of
Speaker 3: Julius's trial, Liddell King was facing bogus check charges and
Speaker 3: as an habitual offender, he was looking to twenty years,
Speaker 3: and in exchange for his testimony, he got ten years probation.
Speaker 3: Liddell was one of the guys that pointed the finger
Speaker 3: at Julius.
Speaker 1: So this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort
Speaker 1: of a unit.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: You had Chris Jordan, who was a troubled kid. You
Speaker 1: have these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the
Speaker 1: stolen car business, and then you have a car that
Speaker 1: gets stolen in a violent robbery tragic death. But we
Speaker 1: know a number of things that would make anyone go wait.
Speaker 1: I mean, for instance, we know that the number of
Speaker 1: shellcasing stunted the scene was something that was known and
Speaker 1: volunteered by Chris and his interrogation before the police even
Speaker 1: asked or suggested it. We know that the witnesses were incentivized.
Speaker 1: We know that the description matches someone very much like
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan, who doesn't look like Julius.
Speaker 3: Megan Toby, Mister Howell's sister was in the car with
Speaker 3: him when he pulled into the driveway, and she testified
Speaker 3: that she saw the person who shot her brother, and
Speaker 3: she described him as African American, wearing a red bandana
Speaker 3: across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and half
Speaker 3: an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap.
Speaker 3: What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop,
Speaker 3: very short. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, wore his
Speaker 3: hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's
Speaker 3: hair was short. Ten days prior to mister Howell's murder,
Speaker 3: Julius got picked up on a traffic stop and had
Speaker 3: a mug shot taken. So there's an official government photo
Speaker 3: of Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never
Speaker 3: shown to the jury at trial. We also know that
Speaker 3: Julius was at home with his family at the time
Speaker 3: mister Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening,
Speaker 3: Chris and Julius were supposed to drive down to Norman, Oklahoma,
Speaker 3: which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius
Speaker 3: was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said
Speaker 3: he would be there early in the evening and Kristen
Speaker 3: would show up until close to midnight.
Speaker 1: We also have with us Julius's sister Antoinette and his
Speaker 1: mother Madeline. Now Here, you have a son who is
Speaker 1: excelling in so many ways, a co captain of three
Speaker 1: different sports in high school, academic scholarship at Oklahoma University,
Speaker 1: great looking young man with the whole life laid out
Speaker 1: in front of him, and then everything takes a terrible,
Speaker 1: terrible turn.
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, it's been a twenty plus year
Speaker 5: shock and I really can't often find the words to
Speaker 5: explain what it's been like.
Speaker 4: We just got blindsided.
Speaker 1: It sure seems like you went from the American dream
Speaker 1: to the American nightmare. And let's go to that faithful
Speaker 1: night July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. Can you tell
Speaker 1: us what was happening that night and how you know
Speaker 1: that Julius could not possibly have been there.
Speaker 5: That was a kind of a busy day for us.
Speaker 5: I was trying to do Antunette's hair, I was fixing spaghetti,
Speaker 5: but Julius.
Speaker 4: Was there all day long. They played monopoly.
Speaker 6: There were a few of us playing monopoly. Julius was
Speaker 6: there playing Monopoly, and my oldest brother Antonio and another.
Speaker 4: Young man that was over there.
Speaker 6: They got mad at me because I gave Jus all
Speaker 6: my money and property. I had to do that because
Speaker 6: I had to get my hair done. So it's specific
Speaker 6: things like that, Like I know that it was around Jesus' birthday.
Speaker 6: Jessus friend had a big chocolate chip cookie that she
Speaker 6: gave to him for his birthday. Tony kept going in
Speaker 6: and out of the refrigerator to take pieces of the cookie.
Speaker 6: And later on that day, my brother Antonio had to
Speaker 6: go to work. My mother went to go take him
Speaker 6: to work. Julius looks in the refrigerator and he's like,
Speaker 6: oh my goodness. He was like, who ate my cooking?
Speaker 4: And I kid you not.
Speaker 6: He waited at the back door in the kitchen, pacing
Speaker 6: back and forth, waiting for mom to come home so
Speaker 6: he could tell that somebody ate his cookie. So I
Speaker 6: kind of was like, well, you know, I was like,
Speaker 6: Tony hr cookie. And so I'll never forget that day.
Speaker 1: So it doesn't seem like someone who just murdered somebody
Speaker 1: would be particularly concerned over how much of a cookie
Speaker 1: was left in the refrigerator or not. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: just one of many, many things, you know. So July
Speaker 1: twenty eighth, he's home with you. Sounds like sort of
Speaker 1: a typical family night. But then things changed dramatically in
Speaker 1: the next thirty six hours. Right the twenty ninth, Chris
Speaker 1: is at your home, Right, I know that he spent
Speaker 1: the night that night, which is when we believe that
Speaker 1: he had the opportunity to plant the gun. Do you
Speaker 1: recall Chris being at your house that night?
Speaker 5: Thursday was trash day and Jess usually takes my trash
Speaker 5: out and sometimes we sit and talk on the walkway,
Speaker 5: but Chris was kind of like a shadow?
Speaker 1: Was there answhen that Were you there that night? Do
Speaker 1: you remember if Chris was at the house.
Speaker 6: I know Chris was there because I heard him come
Speaker 6: upstairs and go into the room that was Julius's.
Speaker 1: The very next day, the police would surround the Jones' house.
Speaker 1: Julia's family was purple out of their own home, and
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan would be in a police car out front
Speaker 1: to tell them exactly where the murder weapon was hidden.
Speaker 1: Julius was appointed a good attorney, mister Barry Albert, who
Speaker 1: was known for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style.
Speaker 1: But mister Albert. You can't believe this would die. He
Speaker 1: died shortly before the trial, leaving his new public defenders
Speaker 1: woefully unprepared, so much so that they didn't put on
Speaker 1: any defense whatsoever.
Speaker 3: When it came time for Julius to present his case,
Speaker 3: the lawyers simply stood up and said the defense rests.
Speaker 3: The lawyers did not put on testimony from the family
Speaker 3: who would have presented an alibi. The lawyers did not
Speaker 3: investigate and present evidence from two people who were in jail,
Speaker 3: who didn't know each other and independently came forward and
Speaker 3: said that Chris Jordan told told them that he said
Speaker 3: Julius up. He told one of the men that he
Speaker 3: planted the weapon in Julius's house, and he told both
Speaker 3: of the men that he would be getting out of
Speaker 3: prison after serving a fifteen year sentence in exchange for
Speaker 3: his testimony against Julius. The inconsistent statements that Chris made
Speaker 3: to the police during his interrogation were never explored by
Speaker 3: the defense when they had an opportunity to cross examine Chris.
Speaker 1: It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact, it's totally understandable why
Speaker 1: the jury would have voted to convict. They didn't have
Speaker 1: any information to work with except what the state was saying.
Speaker 1: What was it like seeing your baby going through this trial.
Speaker 5: Well, at the beginning, I was very confident because the
Speaker 5: attorney that we had, mister Abbott, he was very thorough
Speaker 5: and he talked to us and he said, I just
Speaker 5: need to get Chris on the stand. Miss Abbot had
Speaker 5: a plan before he passed away. The opponent attorneys they
Speaker 5: wanted more time, and then after he passed away than
Speaker 5: they wanted to immediately start up with trial and everything.
Speaker 4: And we were there every day. But one of the
Speaker 4: excuses after miss Tabbot had passed, they said the reason
Speaker 4: they didn't call us on the standing after they had
Speaker 4: sentenced Junius because they didn't know we were there. It
Speaker 4: was just a mockery.
Speaker 6: I was devastated. I was devastated when I heard the
Speaker 6: word we rest. I think I was a little older
Speaker 6: than thirteen.
Speaker 1: Then.
Speaker 6: I didn't understand how you couldn't put people on the
Speaker 6: stand to help my brother's defense. There was no defense
Speaker 6: there and that I mean that, just that pisces me off.
Speaker 1: You know, Kim, I just I try to picture you know,
Speaker 1: you really spoke quickly about this before, but putting someone
Speaker 1: we love or yourself. If you're in the audience with
Speaker 1: yourself in the shoes of a guy who's at trial
Speaker 1: for his life literally and his lawyers are doing absolutely
Speaker 1: nothing to help him, how can that be? How could
Speaker 1: that stand? And by the way, is that why you're
Speaker 1: taking the bar.
Speaker 2: I'm taking it just because I want to know more.
Speaker 2: If I don't know a lot about the system and
Speaker 2: how the law actually works, then I feel like I
Speaker 2: can't help as many people. I know we can get
Speaker 2: a lot done, but I feel like I put on
Speaker 2: a different level. So that's why I am taking it.
Speaker 2: But it infuriates me to hear when cases when there's
Speaker 2: ineffective counsel. It just makes me so mad, especially if
Speaker 2: it's an appointed attorney, that you think that if you
Speaker 2: don't have the money to afford an attorney and so
Speaker 2: you're getting appointed one, that they're going to be ineffective
Speaker 2: and not help but actually hurt your case so much.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how I can live with
Speaker 2: myself if I was an attorney like that.
Speaker 1: You know, for me, any injustice troubles me. But this
Speaker 1: one sticks in my mind because there he is on
Speaker 1: death row and basically the closest thing we have to
Speaker 1: hell on earth. And you know, I wanted to ask
Speaker 1: you about that. How do you feel about the death
Speaker 1: penalty in general?
Speaker 2: You know what, I'm just not for the death penalty
Speaker 2: no matter what. You know. Obviously there are people that
Speaker 2: have done really horrific things and definitely deserve to be
Speaker 2: behind bars. But I don't believe in taking a life.
Speaker 2: But I think, especially with Julius's case, he just didn't
Speaker 2: get a fair trial, bottom line. So I think that
Speaker 2: especially if there is even a chance that someone is
Speaker 2: innocent and their life would be taken, We've just seen
Speaker 2: it happen too many times for this to still be
Speaker 2: happening on the I can't support it.
Speaker 1: For people who are listening, now, what could you say
Speaker 1: to them when they end up serving on a jury which,
Speaker 1: you know, let's face it, all of us at some
Speaker 1: point get one of those jury duty notices and you
Speaker 1: look at it and you go, no, now, I got
Speaker 1: to disrupt my life.
Speaker 2: It's literally my dream to do that. I hope that
Speaker 2: when I get like jury duty, that it's some case
Speaker 2: that I can make a difference in.
Speaker 1: No one wants to get the wrong person because it
Speaker 1: also prevents us from getting the right person. So and
Speaker 1: in this case, I mean, it's a tragedy what happened
Speaker 1: to this family where they lost this guy who by
Speaker 1: all accounts was a good guy, and we want justice
Speaker 1: for him too, But there is no justice when you
Speaker 1: have the wrong person in prison.
Speaker 2: I think you have to be extremely sensitive with the
Speaker 2: families that are involved here. My compassion for helping someone
Speaker 2: and I'm not just thinking about Julie as it can
Speaker 2: be anyone, never takes away my empathy for the family
Speaker 2: of the victim. And ultimately we all have the same
Speaker 2: goal as like what you just said is making sure
Speaker 2: that the right person is put behind bars and that
Speaker 2: the innocent person is able to be freed from this
Speaker 2: nightmare that they're in.
Speaker 1: I mean, as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense
Speaker 1: didn't even give the jury much information to work with.
Speaker 1: But believe it or not, it gets even worse.
Speaker 3: During the trial in the jury room, one of the
Speaker 3: jurors said out loud, why are we wasting our time here?
Speaker 3: We ought to just take that in out back and
Speaker 3: bury them outside the jail, And one of the jurors
Speaker 3: approached a bailiff and told him what she heard and
Speaker 3: asked to talk to the judge on the record. The
Speaker 3: judge sort of dismissed it as well. He could have
Speaker 3: been talking about Osama bin Laden. We don't know who
Speaker 3: the juror was talking about. Take the N word out
Speaker 3: of the equation. You still have a juror who made
Speaker 3: up his mind and was going to convict Julius and
Speaker 3: sentence him to death. Throw the N word in there,
Speaker 3: and the racism is just oozing from this case. We
Speaker 3: also know that between nineteen ninety five and twoenty twelve,
Speaker 3: there was a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and
Speaker 3: the death penalty. The authors concluded that an African American
Speaker 3: male who is convicted of killing a white male is
Speaker 3: three times more likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma.
Speaker 1: So at trial, yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no
Speaker 1: defense whatsoever. So Dale, when you took on case, you
Speaker 1: guys had your work cut out for you, to say
Speaker 1: the least. But there was a new law in place
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma that allowed you to do DNA testing and
Speaker 1: post conviction, so you tested the red bandana right.
Speaker 3: It was sitting in evidence for almost twenty years, Doctor Shapiro,
Speaker 3: used to be with the Department of Forensic Biology at
Speaker 3: the Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed the
Speaker 3: DNA report that was produced by body Selmark and came
Speaker 3: to some conclusions. So one of the things that Megan Toby,
Speaker 3: the victim's sister, testified to was that the shooter yelled
Speaker 3: something at her is she was running away, and we
Speaker 3: identified a stain on the bandana, and we wanted to
Speaker 3: check if that stain was saliva, and it came back
Speaker 3: negative is to saliva. So we don't even know if
Speaker 3: that bandana that was found in Julius's attic was the
Speaker 3: same bandana that the assailant wore, because there's not the
Speaker 3: saliva stain on it that should be there. Because the
Speaker 3: assailant yelled.
Speaker 1: Don't forget, this was July and Oklahoma, right, So you
Speaker 1: do have to suspend a lot of this belief to
Speaker 1: come up with the conclusion that someone Julius or anyone
Speaker 1: is going to be in an extremely high pressure situation
Speaker 1: on a very hot day and not sweat or breathe
Speaker 1: into the bandana that they're supposedly wearing on their face.
Speaker 1: We don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was
Speaker 1: wrapped in the bandana, or whether the gun was taken
Speaker 1: and placed in the bandana by the authorities when they
Speaker 1: were taking it out. One would hope they would put
Speaker 1: it in an evidence bag instead. But the state made
Speaker 1: a big deal about the fact that there were several
Speaker 1: different people's DNA on this bandana, and that one of
Speaker 1: the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can
Speaker 1: you elaborate on what that really means, because some people
Speaker 1: would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute.
Speaker 1: Then you know, I guess they got the right guy
Speaker 1: after all.
Speaker 3: Right, case closed. But the testing indicates that the DNA
Speaker 3: was degraded and was defined as trace DNA, which suggests
Speaker 3: that the DNA could have been transferred to the item.
Speaker 3: So the bandana is found in Julius's house, it's handled
Speaker 3: by the police, it's in his bedroom. It's very possible
Speaker 3: that any DNA on there that could be consistent with
Speaker 3: Julius's could come about as a result of the transfer
Speaker 3: of the DNA.
Speaker 1: So here's what we're faced with. It seems to me,
Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts.
Speaker 1: Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His hair was short
Speaker 1: and could never have stuck out from a stocking cap,
Speaker 1: but Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris Jordan gave a
Speaker 1: confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and false as he
Speaker 1: changed his story numerous times. Chris also admitted to planting
Speaker 1: the gun exactly where the police found it in Julius's
Speaker 1: house on more than one occasion. There's no salary DNA
Speaker 1: on the bandana in evidence, and it doesn't seem to
Speaker 1: be the one that was worn across the shooters or
Speaker 1: anyone's face anyway, And I'm leaving out other exculpatory stuff.
Speaker 1: Forget the incompetent defense, forget the racial bias, forget the jury,
Speaker 1: forget everything. Those facts alone would seem to be enough
Speaker 1: to unravel this. And then you add to it that
Speaker 1: the only thing connecting him to it are the words
Speaker 1: of two highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom happened to
Speaker 1: be career criminals, who were maybe an offer they could
Speaker 1: almost get refused. I mean, they were given an offer
Speaker 1: that they would be able to avoid lengthy prison sentences
Speaker 1: of their own in exchange for their testimony against Julius.
Speaker 1: Does that pretty much sum it up.
Speaker 3: That's it, and one would think that, you know, why
Speaker 3: is Julius even in prison, let alone on death row,
Speaker 3: But that's not how it turned out.
Speaker 1: This leads to my next question, Kim, his only contact
Speaker 1: to the outside world is through letters. Have you gotten
Speaker 1: letters directly from him or have you corresponded with him
Speaker 1: in any way?
Speaker 2: I have, yes, you know, just hearing what he has
Speaker 2: to say. And I mean, what I can't understand, but
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for is someone in Julius's situation who
Speaker 2: could be so angry at the world. And I don't
Speaker 2: know how I would act if I was in his situation,
Speaker 2: But to see the grace that he has and to
Speaker 2: see how he's fighting through this and won't give up,
Speaker 2: it inspires me. So I want to fight, like we
Speaker 2: need him to get out. I mean, just to even
Speaker 2: know that because he was an athlete, to see a
Speaker 2: lot of athletes support him and write letters on his
Speaker 2: behalf now to send to the governor has been so
Speaker 2: amazing to see. You know, when he was playing ball,
Speaker 2: Blake Griffin's dad was his coach and is completely in
Speaker 2: support of Julius and Blake Griffin wrote an amazing, heartfelt
Speaker 2: letter for the governor to see in support of Julius's release.
Speaker 2: Russell Westbrook. There's been some amazing people that really want
Speaker 2: to see him released as well, people that grew up there,
Speaker 2: people that played there. Carmelo Anthony who played in Oklahoma
Speaker 2: for a little while. His wife is my best friend,
Speaker 2: you know. I sent him all the facts and he
Speaker 2: wrote a letter as well. It's amazing to see the
Speaker 2: support that has come together. And I hope that everyone
Speaker 2: really pays attention before it's too late, because we will
Speaker 2: not go out easy on this one.
Speaker 1: So, Kim, if you could talk to the governor and
Speaker 1: you may have that opportunity, I hope, And we know
Speaker 1: that the governor of Oklahoma is a guy who cares
Speaker 1: about criminal justice reform. He's done some positive things for sure.
Speaker 1: So if you could talk to him, what would you say?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would just first of all, love to walk
Speaker 2: him through the facts of Julius's case and explain to
Speaker 2: him what kind of person Julius is and was before
Speaker 2: his life was turned upside down. And I've heard he's
Speaker 2: a really compassionate person and really does care about reform,
Speaker 2: and I just hope to have that opportunity, and we're
Speaker 2: going to be presenting him all of these letters of
Speaker 2: support soon, and I believe that he will pay attention.
Speaker 2: I have faith in that.
Speaker 1: It would be hard to imagine that he and the
Speaker 1: members of the Parole Board wouldn't be moved to take
Speaker 1: action here. Between the outcry and the public, the support
Speaker 1: of prominent people, faith leaders, business leaders, so many different people,
Speaker 1: and the facts of the case cry out for justice. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean everyone always asks me like, well, what
Speaker 2: can we do? And I think the most important thing
Speaker 2: to do is call the Governor's office and elected officials
Speaker 2: that can really make a difference, and just be really loud,
Speaker 2: and you should go to Justice for Julius Jones dot
Speaker 2: com first of all, look into his case. Everything is
Speaker 2: on this website, from the documentary The Last Offense with
Speaker 2: Viola Davis to where you can sign the petition in
Speaker 2: favor of Julius, and you can also subscribe to stay
Speaker 2: up to date on what's going on, and it even
Speaker 2: gives you a link to email the Parole Board. I
Speaker 2: do believe that the Parole Board is like in favor
Speaker 2: of a form. I believe everyone is very compassionate. From
Speaker 2: what I've heard, So I just urge everyone please sign
Speaker 2: the petition for Julius Jones if you're moved by his story.
Speaker 2: I've done it. I believe in him so much. I
Speaker 2: believe in his innocence. Justice for Julius Jones dot com.
Speaker 1: We have a regular feature on the show which is
Speaker 1: my favorite part of the show, which is where I
Speaker 1: get to just kick back, turn off my microphone, leave
Speaker 1: my headphones on and listen. And so what we call
Speaker 1: this segment closing Arguments, and we're going to hear from
Speaker 1: Dale ants when and of course Madeline, but let's kick
Speaker 1: things off with you, Kim Oh.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on here, and thank you
Speaker 2: for everything that you do and for showing me the way. Seriously,
Speaker 2: I look up to you so much, and I'm so
Speaker 2: grateful to you for sharing so many cases with me
Speaker 2: and that we're able to hopefully open up people's minds
Speaker 2: and hearts that might have been a little bit closed
Speaker 2: off when it comes to reform or might not understood
Speaker 2: how they could help, and then we're giving them a
Speaker 2: platform where they can help out and be a part
Speaker 2: of the conversation and help fight for people that really
Speaker 2: really deserve it.
Speaker 4: So thank you.
Speaker 1: Dale, You've done a fantastic job and I appreciate you
Speaker 1: making the time. I know it's going to make a difference.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you, Jason. We have a commutation application pending
Speaker 3: before the Oklahoma Pardon and Parole Board. Julius is thankful
Speaker 3: for all the support, the prayers, the letters that he
Speaker 3: has received that is giving him strength. This case got
Speaker 3: the attention it deserved when Viola Davis and Julius Tennan
Speaker 3: produced the last defense that put light on this injustice
Speaker 3: and wrongful conviction. What's troubling to me, and we should
Speaker 3: all be concerned about this, is that without the last defense,
Speaker 3: no one would be interested in this case. Julius would
Speaker 3: have been just another African American man in prison saying
Speaker 3: he was innocent, one of the four percent, and no
Speaker 3: one would care. There are thousands of julius'es behind bars
Speaker 3: today and people should care. And we know you care, Jason,
Speaker 3: and we appreciate that. The struggle isn't over. Thank you
Speaker 3: very much.
Speaker 1: Why don't we save mom for last, because you know
Speaker 1: she's mom, So antoinete over to you.
Speaker 6: So first I would say, my brother, Julius Arris Jones,
Speaker 6: he did not kill Paul howe. My brother is a
Speaker 6: human being. He is not a number. When we consider
Speaker 6: people human beings and not just numbers, and we really
Speaker 6: take into account all the facts. I'm just asking them
Speaker 6: to correct this wrong. I'm asking you to look at
Speaker 6: all of the key points in this case. I'm asking
Speaker 6: you to understand that my brother never got a fair defense,
Speaker 6: he never got a proper defense, he never got a
Speaker 6: jur of his peers, he never got a chance to
Speaker 6: voice what happened to him from his side. And I'm
Speaker 6: just asking you, as a human being to understand and
Speaker 6: take my brother in consideration as a human being and
Speaker 6: not a number. He is not a person that will
Speaker 6: take a life. He is a person that will protect
Speaker 6: a life. He is a person that cares about everybody's
Speaker 6: well being. To this day, he cares. He cares more
Speaker 6: about how everybody else is doing than how he's doing.
Speaker 6: That's who my brother is. He's a person that cares.
Speaker 6: He's a loyal person. He is a person that loves life.
Speaker 6: I never gave up, and I'm still not gonna give up.
Speaker 6: We shall not give up. We shall not rest. Even
Speaker 6: though the defense rests for him, we shall not rest.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, and now for the final words, Madeline.
Speaker 4: First of all, Julius is a good person.
Speaker 5: He's very kind, he's loving, compassion, and a lot of
Speaker 5: times he will hurt himself to keep from hurting someone else.
Speaker 5: And that's the reason he's in predicament he's in now,
Speaker 5: and I just want to say to the Borole board
Speaker 5: that one science does not fit all and that I
Speaker 5: would like for them to take careful consideration concerning Julius
Speaker 5: and to look at what he will be able to contribute.
Speaker 4: To society if they spare his life.
Speaker 5: We just need to try to get things right because
Speaker 5: when justice is covered up, it stays covered for so long,
Speaker 5: but it will either burn through or it will grow.
Speaker 5: And right now I feel like that justice is growing
Speaker 5: because it wants to be heard and it wants to
Speaker 5: be fulfilled what it's really meant to be justice for all,
Speaker 5: not just for some of us.
Speaker 4: And you know, freedom is worth more than money.
Speaker 5: My biggest joy is to help my son home and
Speaker 5: to be about the things that he's dreamed and long
Speaker 5: to want to do. And I thank God for this
Speaker 5: opportunity today to be able to express so many things
Speaker 5: that I've held in Today.
Speaker 4: I really thank God for you, Jason. I thank God
Speaker 4: for people like you.
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one