WEBVTT - #133 Jason Flom and Kim Kardashian on Julius Jones 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:05.400 On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, an Edmund, Oklahoma 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.400 business owner, Paul Howell, was returning to his parents home 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.760 with his sister and two daughters after shopping for school supplies. 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:14.880 Upon exiting the vehicle, he was shot twice and killed 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:18.680 for his GMC suburban. Paul's sister would describe the shooter 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:21.920 as an African American male wearing a red bandana across 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:24.320 his face and a stocking cap with up to an 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:28.320 inch of hair sticking out from the bottom. Investigators would 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:32.040 tap confidential informants in the stolen car trade that would 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.720 deflect from themselves and point police in the direction of 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:40.000 Chris Jordan and Julius Jones. Chris Jordan would go on 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.879 to give a confession that was riddled with inconsistencies, blaming 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:46.559 Julius Jones for the murder, but on the night of 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.080 July twenty eighth, Julius was at home with his family. 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:54.600 The following night, July twenty ninth, Chris Jordan slept at 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:57.520 the Joneses home, and that's when he planted the murder 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.960 weapon in a second story crawl space, something he admitted 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:05.039 both to the police and to two jailhouse informants. On 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:08.920 July thirtieth, police would find the gun exactly where Chris 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.520 Jordan had told him to look, and emerge with it 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:16.280 wrapped in a red Bandanna. Julius's defense at trial failed 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:20.080 to present any evidence, including a photo taken by police 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:22.800 after a traffic stop just ten days earlier, that would 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.280 have ruled him out as a potential match to the 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:29.160 only eyewitnesses description. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, received 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:32.560 leniency for testifying against Julius, and he's been out of 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:37.320 prison since twenty fourteen. Julius, meanwhile, remains on death row 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:42.280 for crime for which Chris Jordan has bragged about framing him. 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.280 On this episode, we team up with one of Julius's 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:48.920 fiercest advocates, Kim Kardashian West, as we speak with his 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:53.080 attorney Dale Baish and his mother and sister, Madeline and 0:01:53.160 --> 0:02:11.200 Antoinette Jones. This Its Wrongful Conviction with Jason Plumm Today, 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:13.600 we're here to talk about Julius Jones, who's been on 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.640 death row in Oklahoma for over twenty years for crime 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:20.519 he didn't commit. And I'd like to welcome a very 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:24.240 special guest. You'll recognize her name, and you'll recognize her 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:27.760 from having been on this podcast before. Kim Kardashian West, 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:30.840 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flohm. 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:32.720 Hi, thank you for having me again. 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:35.959 I can't overstate the importance of you being here today 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.080 with us, Kim, because if we don't take every possible 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:41.639 action that we can, and I mean the audience too, 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.600 Julius will be executed in Oklahoma as early as this 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.800 fall for a crime we know he didn't commit. Kim, 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:50.440 can you tell us when you first heard about this case. 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:56.359 Yeah, I first started to receive letters. They were from 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:00.760 a woman named Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her, 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:05.520 and she was kind of reiterating the same information about 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:11.400 Julius and mentioned the documentary with Viola Davis. So I thought, 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:15.360 I have to look into this. And I say this 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.440 all the time because we have such an amazing group 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:23.160 of people, between you and Scott Budnick, my attorneys and everyone. 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:28.160 When all of the big players really feel the same 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.760 way about a case, I know that we have to 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:35.280 be loud and I feel in my soul that we 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:39.400 are early enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.960 been set yet. That I feel like now is the 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:45.480 time where we all just have to come together and 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:47.480 really make a difference in his life. 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:50.800 What about this particular case, about his case makes you 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:54.320 so passionate and what sticks out to you the most 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:56.680 about Julius's case, There's. 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:01.400 A few things. Being a young honor roll student athlete, 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:06.240 you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.040 always says what an amazing person he is, that grew 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:14.600 up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:19.160 caught up with the wrong group of people and getting 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.760 set up the way he was just really rubbed me 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:27.040 the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:30.760 was just taken away. It always goes back to me 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:33.720 thinking about what if that was my son? What would 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:37.600 I do if my son got set up like this? 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.440 So we got to fight for this guy. We got 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:43.520 to help him get his life back. 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:47.039 The next voice you hear is going to be the 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:51.360 voice of Dale Bash, an assistant federal public defender who 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:57.080 is definitely doing his part to help to unravel this nightmare. 0:04:57.720 --> 0:04:59.160 When did you get involved with it? 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:05.960 Twenty and sixteen, our office was appointed to represent Julius 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:07.880 in clemency proceedings. 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:11.200 Now can you walk us through the case. 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:16.560 Sure. On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine, according to 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:20.560 Chris Jordan, who is a co defendant in this case, 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:25.839 he and Julius were driving around looking for a suburban 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:30.800 to jack. They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood, 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:35.359 and according to Chris Jordan, Julius jumped out of the 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:39.240 car when the car pulled into the driveway and shot 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:43.480 Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody, that's 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:48.560 what he told the police, and they immediately focused on Julius. 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:53.719 Tunnel vision set in. But what we now know is 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:58.520 Chris made seven different statements to the police, and those 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:04.279 statements were inconsistent, And at one point the police say, 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:08.200 what you're telling us, it's not adding up. We don't 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:12.839 have this backwards, do we. So the police knew that 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:17.760 there were problems with what Chris was telling them, but 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.560 the police continue to focus on Julius. 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:23.960 Something really struck me as I was reading about this case, 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:29.200 which was that when the gun was hidden in Julius's house, 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:33.080 obviously very damning for anyone to have the murder weapon 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:33.920 found in their home. 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:39.080 Well, we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police. 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.880 He was asked, so you hid the murder weapon, and 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:48.080 he responded yeah. Chris also told one of the men 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:51.040 that he spoke to while in custody in the county 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.400 jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:59.280 murder and hid it in Julius's parents' house. We understand 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:04.720 that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:09.840 Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:15.280 went looking for the gun and immediately went to where 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.760 we think Chris told them the gun would be located. 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:24.520 We also know that there were other people involved, namely Kermit, 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.680 Lotti and laddel King, that had a lot to gain 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:32.680 by pointing in Julius's direction and away from themselves. 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:34.960 Can you tell us about Kermit and Laddell. 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:39.520 Kermit Lottie was a man who ran a chop shop 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.520 on the south side of Oklahoma City, and it was 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.640 a well known establishment in the trade of stealing cars. 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:53.640 Laddel King was a close confidant of Kermit's and was 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.760 known for his involvement in that trade. Laddel King was 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:03.320 also a confidential informant and in exchange for providing information 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:06.640 to the police, he would be allowed to carry on 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:10.680 with some of his illegal activities. At the time of 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:16.400 Julius's trial, Liddell King was facing bogus check charges and 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.760 as an habitual offender, he was looking to twenty years, 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:25.400 and in exchange for his testimony, he got ten years probation. 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:29.280 Liddell was one of the guys that pointed the finger 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:30.560 at Julius. 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:35.440 So this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:36.040 of a unit. 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:36.319 Right. 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:41.320 You had Chris Jordan, who was a troubled kid. You 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:46.240 have these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.240 stolen car business, and then you have a car that 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.920 gets stolen in a violent robbery tragic death. But we 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:57.559 know a number of things that would make anyone go wait. 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:00.400 I mean, for instance, we know that the number of 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.080 shellcasing stunted the scene was something that was known and 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:06.520 volunteered by Chris and his interrogation before the police even 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.199 asked or suggested it. We know that the witnesses were incentivized. 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:15.280 We know that the description matches someone very much like 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:17.640 Chris Jordan, who doesn't look like Julius. 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:22.280 Megan Toby, Mister Howell's sister was in the car with 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:25.719 him when he pulled into the driveway, and she testified 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.600 that she saw the person who shot her brother, and 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:35.000 she described him as African American, wearing a red bandana 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:39.760 across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and half 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.679 an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap. 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:48.800 What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop, 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.480 very short. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, wore his 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:56.720 hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's 0:09:56.760 --> 0:10:01.760 hair was short. Ten days prior to mister Howell's murder, 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:05.120 Julius got picked up on a traffic stop and had 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:09.360 a mug shot taken. So there's an official government photo 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:14.640 of Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:18.960 shown to the jury at trial. We also know that 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.760 Julius was at home with his family at the time 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:27.760 mister Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening, 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:33.679 Chris and Julius were supposed to drive down to Norman, Oklahoma, 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:37.760 which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:41.800 was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.840 he would be there early in the evening and Kristen 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:48.040 would show up until close to midnight. 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.560 We also have with us Julius's sister Antoinette and his 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:55.040 mother Madeline. Now Here, you have a son who is 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:59.120 excelling in so many ways, a co captain of three 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:05.120 different sports in high school, academic scholarship at Oklahoma University, 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:09.040 great looking young man with the whole life laid out 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:13.520 in front of him, and then everything takes a terrible, 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:14.559 terrible turn. 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:19.079 Well, first of all, it's been a twenty plus year 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:26.160 shock and I really can't often find the words to 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:27.960 explain what it's been like. 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:30.240 We just got blindsided. 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.360 It sure seems like you went from the American dream 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:37.480 to the American nightmare. And let's go to that faithful 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.760 night July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. Can you tell 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:44.240 us what was happening that night and how you know 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.080 that Julius could not possibly have been there. 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:50.280 That was a kind of a busy day for us. 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:56.480 I was trying to do Antunette's hair, I was fixing spaghetti, 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:58.439 but Julius. 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.600 Was there all day long. They played monopoly. 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:03.920 There were a few of us playing monopoly. Julius was 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:10.880 there playing Monopoly, and my oldest brother Antonio and another. 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:11.560 Young man that was over there. 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:13.960 They got mad at me because I gave Jus all 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.560 my money and property. I had to do that because 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.160 I had to get my hair done. So it's specific 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:22.679 things like that, Like I know that it was around Jesus' birthday. 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:26.120 Jessus friend had a big chocolate chip cookie that she 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.360 gave to him for his birthday. Tony kept going in 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.000 and out of the refrigerator to take pieces of the cookie. 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:35.200 And later on that day, my brother Antonio had to 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.720 go to work. My mother went to go take him 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.120 to work. Julius looks in the refrigerator and he's like, 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:42.680 oh my goodness. He was like, who ate my cooking? 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:43.600 And I kid you not. 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.280 He waited at the back door in the kitchen, pacing 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:48.280 back and forth, waiting for mom to come home so 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.520 he could tell that somebody ate his cookie. So I 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:52.200 kind of was like, well, you know, I was like, 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:55.880 Tony hr cookie. And so I'll never forget that day. 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.600 So it doesn't seem like someone who just murdered somebody 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:03.320 would be particularly concerned over how much of a cookie 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.600 was left in the refrigerator or not. I mean, that's 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.240 just one of many, many things, you know. So July 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.120 twenty eighth, he's home with you. Sounds like sort of 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:16.120 a typical family night. But then things changed dramatically in 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:20.280 the next thirty six hours. Right the twenty ninth, Chris 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.839 is at your home, Right, I know that he spent 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.080 the night that night, which is when we believe that 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.000 he had the opportunity to plant the gun. Do you 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.600 recall Chris being at your house that night? 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:38.520 Thursday was trash day and Jess usually takes my trash 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:42.000 out and sometimes we sit and talk on the walkway, 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.080 but Chris was kind of like a shadow? 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.440 Was there answhen that Were you there that night? Do 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:48.920 you remember if Chris was at the house. 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.160 I know Chris was there because I heard him come 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.000 upstairs and go into the room that was Julius's. 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.319 The very next day, the police would surround the Jones' house. 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:01.880 Julia's family was purple out of their own home, and 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.199 Chris Jordan would be in a police car out front 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.600 to tell them exactly where the murder weapon was hidden. 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.760 Julius was appointed a good attorney, mister Barry Albert, who 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:14.559 was known for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style. 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:18.240 But mister Albert. You can't believe this would die. He 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:22.640 died shortly before the trial, leaving his new public defenders 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.760 woefully unprepared, so much so that they didn't put on 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:28.680 any defense whatsoever. 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:33.600 When it came time for Julius to present his case, 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:38.560 the lawyers simply stood up and said the defense rests. 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:43.680 The lawyers did not put on testimony from the family 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.920 who would have presented an alibi. The lawyers did not 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:53.600 investigate and present evidence from two people who were in jail, 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.920 who didn't know each other and independently came forward and 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.720 said that Chris Jordan told told them that he said 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.880 Julius up. He told one of the men that he 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:09.280 planted the weapon in Julius's house, and he told both 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.320 of the men that he would be getting out of 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:15.720 prison after serving a fifteen year sentence in exchange for 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:22.360 his testimony against Julius. The inconsistent statements that Chris made 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:28.200 to the police during his interrogation were never explored by 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:32.320 the defense when they had an opportunity to cross examine Chris. 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:37.960 It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact, it's totally understandable why 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:39.800 the jury would have voted to convict. They didn't have 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.400 any information to work with except what the state was saying. 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:47.440 What was it like seeing your baby going through this trial. 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:51.120 Well, at the beginning, I was very confident because the 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:56.240 attorney that we had, mister Abbott, he was very thorough 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:58.000 and he talked to us and he said, I just 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:03.080 need to get Chris on the stand. Miss Abbot had 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:08.360 a plan before he passed away. The opponent attorneys they 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:12.680 wanted more time, and then after he passed away than 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.200 they wanted to immediately start up with trial and everything. 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.280 And we were there every day. But one of the 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:23.440 excuses after miss Tabbot had passed, they said the reason 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:26.040 they didn't call us on the standing after they had 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:30.960 sentenced Junius because they didn't know we were there. It 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:32.640 was just a mockery. 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:35.480 I was devastated. I was devastated when I heard the 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:37.920 word we rest. I think I was a little older 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:38.520 than thirteen. 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:38.840 Then. 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:42.120 I didn't understand how you couldn't put people on the 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.040 stand to help my brother's defense. There was no defense 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:49.000 there and that I mean that, just that pisces me off. 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.240 You know, Kim, I just I try to picture you know, 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:02.720 you really spoke quickly about this before, but putting someone 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.200 we love or yourself. If you're in the audience with 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:07.959 yourself in the shoes of a guy who's at trial 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:12.760 for his life literally and his lawyers are doing absolutely 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:15.560 nothing to help him, how can that be? How could 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:19.080 that stand? And by the way, is that why you're 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:19.720 taking the bar. 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.280 I'm taking it just because I want to know more. 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:25.800 If I don't know a lot about the system and 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:29.119 how the law actually works, then I feel like I 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:31.600 can't help as many people. I know we can get 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:33.840 a lot done, but I feel like I put on 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.520 a different level. So that's why I am taking it. 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:41.760 But it infuriates me to hear when cases when there's 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:46.560 ineffective counsel. It just makes me so mad, especially if 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.840 it's an appointed attorney, that you think that if you 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:51.760 don't have the money to afford an attorney and so 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.080 you're getting appointed one, that they're going to be ineffective 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:58.119 and not help but actually hurt your case so much. 0:17:58.240 --> 0:17:59.840 I mean, I don't know how I can live with 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:03.959 myself if I was an attorney like that. 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:07.520 You know, for me, any injustice troubles me. But this 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:12.280 one sticks in my mind because there he is on 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.720 death row and basically the closest thing we have to 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.400 hell on earth. And you know, I wanted to ask 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:21.640 you about that. How do you feel about the death 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:22.880 penalty in general? 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:25.199 You know what, I'm just not for the death penalty 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:27.919 no matter what. You know. Obviously there are people that 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:32.200 have done really horrific things and definitely deserve to be 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.320 behind bars. But I don't believe in taking a life. 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.760 But I think, especially with Julius's case, he just didn't 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:43.800 get a fair trial, bottom line. So I think that 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:46.840 especially if there is even a chance that someone is 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:51.280 innocent and their life would be taken, We've just seen 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.919 it happen too many times for this to still be 0:18:54.080 --> 0:19:00.520 happening on the I can't support it. 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:06.120 For people who are listening, now, what could you say 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.359 to them when they end up serving on a jury which, 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:11.240 you know, let's face it, all of us at some 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:13.919 point get one of those jury duty notices and you 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:15.879 look at it and you go, no, now, I got 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:17.680 to disrupt my life. 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.639 It's literally my dream to do that. I hope that 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.800 when I get like jury duty, that it's some case 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:26.679 that I can make a difference in. 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:29.320 No one wants to get the wrong person because it 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.080 also prevents us from getting the right person. So and 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.640 in this case, I mean, it's a tragedy what happened 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.560 to this family where they lost this guy who by 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.399 all accounts was a good guy, and we want justice 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.479 for him too, But there is no justice when you 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:44.959 have the wrong person in prison. 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.440 I think you have to be extremely sensitive with the 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:55.040 families that are involved here. My compassion for helping someone 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:57.320 and I'm not just thinking about Julie as it can 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:02.440 be anyone, never takes away my empathy for the family 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:05.680 of the victim. And ultimately we all have the same 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.480 goal as like what you just said is making sure 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:12.840 that the right person is put behind bars and that 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:17.600 the innocent person is able to be freed from this 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:18.920 nightmare that they're in. 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.000 I mean, as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.760 didn't even give the jury much information to work with. 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:28.159 But believe it or not, it gets even worse. 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:32.119 During the trial in the jury room, one of the 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:36.359 jurors said out loud, why are we wasting our time here? 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:41.359 We ought to just take that in out back and 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:46.840 bury them outside the jail, And one of the jurors 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:51.399 approached a bailiff and told him what she heard and 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.679 asked to talk to the judge on the record. The 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:58.439 judge sort of dismissed it as well. He could have 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.840 been talking about Osama bin Laden. We don't know who 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:07.240 the juror was talking about. Take the N word out 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:11.879 of the equation. You still have a juror who made 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:15.560 up his mind and was going to convict Julius and 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:19.520 sentence him to death. Throw the N word in there, 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:25.320 and the racism is just oozing from this case. We 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:31.720 also know that between nineteen ninety five and twoenty twelve, 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:37.440 there was a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:41.880 the death penalty. The authors concluded that an African American 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:45.840 male who is convicted of killing a white male is 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:49.960 three times more likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma. 0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:56.919 So at trial, yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:01.159 defense whatsoever. So Dale, when you took on case, you 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:03.280 guys had your work cut out for you, to say 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:07.240 the least. But there was a new law in place 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.560 in Oklahoma that allowed you to do DNA testing and 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.240 post conviction, so you tested the red bandana right. 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:20.600 It was sitting in evidence for almost twenty years, Doctor Shapiro, 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:24.360 used to be with the Department of Forensic Biology at 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:28.480 the Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed the 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:33.480 DNA report that was produced by body Selmark and came 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:39.360 to some conclusions. So one of the things that Megan Toby, 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:44.960 the victim's sister, testified to was that the shooter yelled 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:49.040 something at her is she was running away, and we 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:54.719 identified a stain on the bandana, and we wanted to 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:59.840 check if that stain was saliva, and it came back 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:05.200 negative is to saliva. So we don't even know if 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:10.480 that bandana that was found in Julius's attic was the 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:15.199 same bandana that the assailant wore, because there's not the 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:19.600 saliva stain on it that should be there. Because the 0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:21.240 assailant yelled. 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:24.960 Don't forget, this was July and Oklahoma, right, So you 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:27.320 do have to suspend a lot of this belief to 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:31.600 come up with the conclusion that someone Julius or anyone 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:35.960 is going to be in an extremely high pressure situation 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:40.240 on a very hot day and not sweat or breathe 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:43.000 into the bandana that they're supposedly wearing on their face. 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:45.520 We don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:47.879 wrapped in the bandana, or whether the gun was taken 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:50.879 and placed in the bandana by the authorities when they 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:53.479 were taking it out. One would hope they would put 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:56.200 it in an evidence bag instead. But the state made 0:23:56.240 --> 0:24:00.480 a big deal about the fact that there were several 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:03.879 different people's DNA on this bandana, and that one of 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:08.440 the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:11.840 you elaborate on what that really means, because some people 0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:13.399 would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute. 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:16.000 Then you know, I guess they got the right guy 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:16.440 after all. 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:24.040 Right, case closed. But the testing indicates that the DNA 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:32.000 was degraded and was defined as trace DNA, which suggests 0:24:32.160 --> 0:24:36.240 that the DNA could have been transferred to the item. 0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:41.280 So the bandana is found in Julius's house, it's handled 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:47.040 by the police, it's in his bedroom. It's very possible 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:51.679 that any DNA on there that could be consistent with 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:56.679 Julius's could come about as a result of the transfer 0:24:57.160 --> 0:24:58.000 of the DNA. 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:02.399 So here's what we're faced with. It seems to me, 0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:05.360 and correct me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts. 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:10.520 Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His hair was short 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:13.160